We saw House Majority Leader Eric Cantor get taken out in a primary by a political novice. We saw John Boehner resign as Speaker of the House because he couldn’t control the mouth-breathers in his own party. Now we’re seeing Donald Trump roll over eleventy-billion other Republican candidates to most likely seize control over the party of Lincoln. It’s incontestable that the Republican Establishment has lost control.
And I think it would be a mistake to see this as quarantined on the right. While the president remains relatively popular, and extremely so on the left, the power of Bernie Sanders’ challenge shows that discontent is widespread among liberals.
As for the rest of the electorate that is either weakly aligned with the left or right, or that is typically disengaged from the political process, they’re dismayed with the gridlock in Washington and unhappy with all our leaders. Some are attracted to Trump’s angry nativism and others are drawn to Sanders’ call for revolution, but they’re not looking for more of the same.
This leads many people to conclude that Hillary Clinton is the wrong person to put up against Trump. And it’s hard to avoid seeing why this argument is compelling. Running for Obama’s third term without a theory for how to break the gridlock that stalled progress in Obama’s last six years is not very inspiring for liberals, and there’s a huge block of voters who don’t want a third term for Obama’s policies.
But there’s a counterargument.
For starters, the country’s bipartisan Establishment may be on its heels, but it’s still incredibly powerful. They’re never weaker than when they’re evenly split, but should they collectively decide that only one candidate is acceptable, they can really bring some huge guns into the fight.
To get an idea of what I’m talking about, check out Ryan Lizza’s new piece in The New Yorker where he lists out the many influential and powerful Republicans who have already pledged not to ever vote for Donald Trump. You may also want to take a look at the piece I wrote for the Washington Monthly earlier this week: How Will Trump Unite the Party?
It’s true that Trump got a boost yesterday when New Jersey Governor Chris Christie endorsed him, but less noticed was the response from a former Republican governor of New Jersey. Christie Todd Whitman, who served as the head of the Environmental Protection Agency in President George W. Bush’s first term, answered Christie by endorsing Ohio Governor John Kasich. But she also said that she’d vote for Hillary Clinton before she’d ever support Trump.
First, she says she’s planning to vote for Hillary Clinton if Trump gets the nod. She’s keeping her options open, in case we find out something new and horrible about Hillary. But that’s her plan now:
“You’ll see a lot of Republicans do that,” Whitman told me. “We don’t want to. But I know I won’t vote for Trump.”
The real juice came when I asked her about Christie’s move:
“I am ashamed that Christie would endorse anyone who has employed the kind of hate mongering and racism that Trump has,” she said. “I would have thought being from a diverse state would have given him more awareness and compassion.”
Whitman’s sentiment of shame is identical to mine, which shows that New Jerseyites think a lot alike even when they’re implacable political foes. I can understand the political calculation behind Christie’s move, but it’s just not consistent with the values of New Jersey.
Now, Christie Todd Whitman isn’t going to move a lot of voters, but she doesn’t have to. She already speaks for a large swath of the right in this country. Too often, the left is so busy being offended by the right that they characterize all their political opponents as subhumans who have absolutely no character, standards, or sense of moral decency. That’s a very big exaggeration. It’s simply not true that everyone will hold their nose about Trump because they see Clinton as the greater evil. If you don’t believe me, go read that Lizza article, seriously.
When you look back at why George McGovern fared so poorly in the 1972 election, it’s because the Democratic Party was badly split. And it was, like today, a time when the nation’s Establishment was largely discredited. McGovern’s success in the primaries was entirely due to this anti-establishment feeling, and it had a lot of juice that would carry over in the decades to come. But it was nowhere near powerful enough, or consolidated on the left, to avoid catastrophe at the ballot box in 1972.
McGovern, like Trump, was able to roll over the party leadership and the country’s opinion leaders, but all the talk of him bringing out the youth vote (18 year olds could vote for the first time in that election) never came to anything.
We live in different times with a much different electorate and no incumbent on the ballot, but 1972 is a warning sign that you never want to go into an election when your party is divided and the Establishment is against you.
Why, then, would the Democrats want to go into the election divided when they are already nearly assured of the Republicans being so?
Like Trump, Sanders doesn’t have endorsements from more than a small handful of officeholders. His hostility to corporate America should remind us of Mark Twain’s admonition to: “Never pick a fight with people who buy ink by the barrel.”
It’s true that there is real energy behind Sanders and that the left is split over who would be the better nominee. But the party apparatus and power brokers are not split. They are about as unified around Clinton as they’ve ever been around any non-incumbent in our nation’s history. Should Sanders nonetheless prevail, the party will begin to look a bit like the basket case we’re seeing on the other side.
So, these are the two arguments.
The first is that the country is in an antiestablishment mood, and if the election is between the antiestablishment Trump and the establishment Clinton, Trump will win.
The second is that a united party with the support of the Establishment will crush a divided party that is opposed by the Establishment and that is suffering massive defections.
Like I said, you can quibble about how united the Democrats will really be under Clinton. I know that some disillusioned Sanders supporters will stay home and a handful will even vote for Trump. Overall, however, I have to say that I’d place my money on Clinton over Trump.
Of course, this is almost strictly an electability argument. And that’s not the only argument worth having. Perhaps, either of the Democrats can win, and win easily. If you believe that, you probably ought to go with your heart. If your heart is with Sanders, and you think he can thump Trump, then support him now while he still has a fighting chance.
But, be clear, the argument that Clinton can’t win is highly contestable and not very convincing in my view.
That’s not to say that Trump doesn’t scare me. He does.
He scares me a lot.
That’s why the electablilty argument is important to me.
Yeah? It will unite the Party of the Elites For Hillary?
In that sentence, what does “it” refer to?
“It” means having Trump as the nominee for the Republican Party. Or the vestiges of it after the flight to Hillary and the neolibs.
Wingnut welfare will keep a lot of the establishment in place, I suspect. “This, too, will pass…” Is there any intellectual rationale left in Republican thinking these days? It’s the job security in a cold world.
Even if the Republican and conservative base were able to hold together, they no longer have enough of the electorate by themselves to win the 2016 Presidential race.
I’m listening to the points by BooMan and others that Donald would shake up the electorate, but in the end I believe the Democratic candidate and their supporters will be able to make the case that a plutocrat who believes the Federal minimum wage is too high and has abused European and other undocumented immigrants as workers on his construction sites is not someone who truly cares to fight on behalf of all working people. A Trump candidacy would increase the GOP’s well-established demographic challenges tenfold, and not just in the Presidential contest.
A Trump candidacy is worth worrying about. It’s not worth despairing about.
I would be more sanguine if I knew WHY Dem vote is so depressed.
The party with a president leaving office after two terms is always complacent relative to the party that’s been out of the White House for eight years.
Also, comparing to Obama is comparing to the high water mark.
What Martin said. Also, for all practical purposes the DEM ’16 primary started a year later than the ’08 DEM primary. And in ’08 two of the candidates entered the race with high national name recognition and a pre-existing base of support, and even Obama was somewhat high profile. The other three contenders were also more well-known than Sanders but needed some lucky break to advance them to the top rung occupied by Clinton, Edwards, and Obama. While Clinton was called inevitable in ’08, there were enough fissures within the DEM establishment that partisan and new voters felt empowered to weigh in.
Electability is, indeed important. But a perfectly fine test of electability is seeing who can win the democratic primary. If Sanders can beat the Clinton machine, he can most likely beat Trump (even with a grudging democratic establishment only partially behind him); if Clinton can’t beat Sanders, she could get beaten by Trump (and there would be a considerable part of the elite who would roll the dice on Trump over Clinton- Christie’s endorsement is proof of that). So if you are swayed by Clinton’s competence and experience, vote for her; if you think Sanders can achieve his revolution, vote for him.
Also, voting for Sanders in the primary will not cripple Clinton in the general; it will both strengthen her and move her to the left. Conversely, a vote for Clinton will not cripple Sanders; the stronger his opposition in the primary, the stronger and battle-tested he comes out in the general
I agree with these points. It’s worth noting that BooMan points us to the 1972 primary as a canary in the coalmine, a time when the candidate strong enough to defeat the establishment in the primary did not maintain enough solidarity within the movement and the electorate to be a good general election candidate.
I don’t think that is likely to happen in 2016. We don’t have a major war and major civil rights backlashes rending the nation, the Party and the movement quite as strongly as we did in ’72. I’m recalling some of the discussions during our 2008 primary fight being pretty heated. What’s going on now feels more like ’08 than ’72.
A big difference with 72, I think, is that the alternative is unthinkable. People like, say, Cory Booker or Bill Nelson, wouldn´t normally be comfortable with Sanders; but in 2016, the alternative is orders of magnitude worse, even from their point of view.
I also agree with GUBula and disagree with Martin that: “Should Sanders nonetheless prevail, the party will begin to look a bit like the basket case we’re seeing on the other side.”
I am very pro-Bernie and would have no trouble voting for Hillary should she be the nominee.
Also all this 1972 talk ignores the Eagleton fiasco. I was an enthusiastic McGovern canvasser a the time and it shook us all to the core. Would he have won without it? Perhaps not, but I believe to this day he would not have been as blown out as he was. It doomed any chance he had to rally.
“Think where man’s glory most begins and ends, and say my glory was I had such friends.” – Yeats
I worked in the McGovern campaign and I agree that the Eagleton fiasco took a toll.
Thank you for this, Booman. It’s exactly this type of analysis that focuses on what is over what might be that keeps me coming back here again and again.
From the headline, I expected a completely different article, on a different party, with the thesis “No, a united party isn’t necessarily better than a divided one.”
But then, only the continuing presence of Bernie Sanders in the field has kept down the number of “Trump is the real liberal/real progressive in the race” thumb-suckers popping up at places like this, and Democraticunderground.com.
Are those really appearing?
Wow.
Matt Stoller’s dream come true.
The pieces write themselves:
Start with “Hillary wants to dismantle SS and Medicare — Trump doesn’t.” and go on from there.
If you write them now you can put them on the spike and submit them toot suite after she wins the nomination.
Your cred with real progressives will be hyuuuuuge.
Thanks, Boo. Some real food for thought.
I need something to ponder, as my wife and I are having dinner tonight with a couple of enthusiastic Donald Trump supporters. My wife has ordered me to be good. I guess that can be interpreted in a couple of different ways. Regardless, I need to have a clear head going into this thing. I have no idea how it will go. They both know my political views, so it might get interesting.
Well, if you want to avoid temptation, when they mention trump stuff, just smile and say: “it’s true, it’s true.. it’s fantastic…”
snicker snicker snicker
………………….
Inside the Republican Party’s Desperate Mission to Stop Donald Trump
By ALEXANDER BURNS, MAGGIE HABERMAN and JONATHAN MARTIN
FEB. 27, 2016
The scenario Karl Rove outlined was bleak.
Addressing a luncheon of Republican governors and donors in Washington on Feb. 19, he warned that Donald J. Trump’s increasingly likely nomination would be catastrophic, dooming the party in November. But Mr. Rove, the master strategist of George W. Bush’s campaigns, insisted it was not too late for them to stop Mr. Trump, according to three people present.
At a meeting of Republican governors the next morning, Paul R. LePage of Maine called for action. Seated at a long boardroom table at the Willard Hotel, he erupted in frustration over the state of the 2016 race, saying Mr. Trump’s nomination would deeply wound the Republican Party. Mr. LePage urged the governors to draft an open letter “to the people,” disavowing Mr. Trump and his divisive brand of politics.
The suggestion was not taken up. Since then, Mr. Trump has only gotten stronger, winning two more state contests and collecting the endorsement of Gov. Chris Christie of New Jersey
LOL If Trump is judged by the quality of his enemies–well, I will leave it there.
This may be just one of the interim and intermittent periods when a large faction of the base in either party have come to loathe the “establishment/etc” of their preferred political party. It’s not even unique when it surfaces surfaces in both parties in the same election cycle. That did happen in ’92 when factions in both parties got a clue about being economically sold out. By ’96 that Democratic faction rolled over and accepted it. By ’00 that GOP faction did as well.
If the fundies and ordinary worker bases of the GOP got a clue in the same election cycle (which doesn’t appear to have happened so far in ’16), the “establishment/etc” GOP would be toast. What’s holding the DEM “establishment/etc” together so far is Obama because ordinary Democrats fear that to critique him is a good way to get labeled a racist. (However, IOKIYAC.)
How handy for the gatekeepers they have McGovern/Gore to keep the left neutered.
Bark, bark.
I criticize Obama all the time. Hell, after he rolled over to the GOP demands during one of those manufactured crises about the debt, I switched my registration to Pacific Green (which is sort of stupid I know).
And, weirdly, Governor LePage went from reportedly trying to manufacture a new and better anti-Trump movement to publicly endorsing Trump less than a week later.
Well, the Governor’s truly weird, so we shouldn’t be surprised.
The way I see it, blind party loyalty almost always breeds corruption- and unfortunately that is doubly true with the Democratic party. And Donald Trump, to paraphrase Rahm, is the crisis that I’m sure the corporate corruption wing of the Democratic party is not going to let go to waste.
Certainly the threat of electing a proto-fascist requires some careful voting choices, but at the same time I don’t think Democrats who want to reform the party and shake up the establishment should shut up- they in fact might be making the party stronger.
And, as you have pointed out, there is the fact the establishment candidate does match up against the proto-fascist very poorly on a bunch of issues.
“should shut up”
I meant “shouldn’t shut up”
Sorry. An edit function would be nice…
Trump’s move to the middle for the general has been foreshadowed somewhat by his mildness towards Sanders, imo. Expect to see some familiar ammunition on issues to try and draw the libertarian side over.
I’m worried that your R’s voting for Hillary numbers are too high Marty. Would love to see some polling, just so that I could sleep at night. I’m not feeling very confident about the general after watching the debate the other night. Trump was effective. He’s already moving into General Election mode…and trying to move out ahead of his extreme vulnerabilities (i.e. disclosure of the audits).
We hear This every election cycle. Conservatives won’t vote for McCain. Evangelicals won’t vote for a Mormon. Jews will stop voting 75% democratic.
Republicans will vote for the Republican candidate. This is the silliest thing I’ve read in a long while: She’s keeping her options open, in case we find out something new and horrible about Hillary.
The general election will give Whitman oodles of new and horrible things about Clinton. That’s what election cycles do. Then she’ll change her mind, regretfully, and vote Trump, if he’s the nominee.
Trump’s on record as saying, clearly and succinctly, that the Federal minimum wage is too high.
The vast majority of people to whom Trump “gave jobs” have been paid and treated very poorly.
Many to most of Trump’s campaign gear was made in China or elsewhere. He has also sent other jobs overseas with his business dealings.
He has fucked over many people, including smaller business owners, with his multiple bankruptcy filings and Trump University and real estate actions.
These and other parts of Trump’s life will strip the bark off his “populist” bullshit. These actions of his have not been skillfully brought out in the campaign so far because the other Republican candidates don’t care to defend workers, college students, small business owners and the others who have been victimized by Trump. The other GOP candidates’ plutocrat benefactors might look at their candidates narrowly if they proposed policies to defend the types Trump stomped on.
A GOP debate is not the best frame to imagine what the general election will look like.
I also don’t think republican candidates are institutionally able to be effective on these attacks, because they honestly believe there is no fraud or con or immoral action that is beyond the pale if the result is wealth. If you look at ALL the republican candidates, every single one is a grift of some sort.
.
Sanders will lose to Trump if all the DEM establishment/institutional/elites and MSM (if one doesn’t include them in the “establishment/etc”) do to him what they did to McGovern. (And it’s not going unnoticed that the “establishment/etc” has been shoving Clinton down voters throats since before the primary election began.) In real time, for commentators that weren’t there, the break-in of the DNC headquarters was reported as a minor and curious event of no importance. The MSM paid no mind to the the extensive dirty tricks of CREEP. McGovern was treated like some sort of pariah when in fact he was but a well qualified candidate to carry forward with the New Deal that had bettered the lives of all ordinary Americans.
And no, it wasn’t “anti-establishment feelings that drove McGovern’s campaign.” It was the same wounds that were carried forward from ’68. It was the fealty, in both culture and economics within both parties, to the MIC. Otherwise, it was opposition to the racism or that privileges are for whites folks and not people of color.
As for young people not showing up, the data may not be great for the 1972 election, but 50% of the 18-24 demographic did vote while the turnout for all other age groups declined significantly that year. (Partly understandable since because the election had been over for months before election day.) And those 18-24 year olds in 1972 were the smaller half of the total “boomer generation” and the only portion that could have conceivably experienced the turmoil of the ’60s and the Vietnam War first hand. And at best only a quarter of this age cohort was eligible to vote in ’68.
Getting crushed by those that are supposed to be allies isn’t exactly inspiring for those trampled on. And the DEM establishment/etc has the audacity to wonder why they lost power in the subsequent elections.
So, sure a Clinton nominee may beat a dreadful GOP candidate like Trump, but at what cost to the DEM party? (In case this has escaped DEMs, the GOP has been building a bench of potentially much better candidates than they’ve been able to field in the past three election cycles.)
Millennials have genuine reasons to fear our neocon agenda these days–they are the ones being driven into the military as a way of getting training or higher education.
That’s actually been the case for over a couple of decades. But pre-existing expectations of the world prevail over new realities for a long time. Elevating wealth and conspicuous consumption for the few, that was initiated in the ’80s, over the well being of the many is a tried and true formula to keep the masses under control as long as enough trinkets flow their way. The price of the trinkets (and yes ordinary Americans have never before had so many trinkets) was the loss of a minimum level of financial security.
What’s MIC?
Military Industrial Complex.
Military Industrial Complex
Ike tried to warn us.
I think one of the ways our movement can enter into dialogues where we’re eternally talking past each other is when one side of the Presidential primary fight or the other frames outcomes to everything as zero sum game or one side completely wins in order to make the other side completely lose.
That is not the way things are in reality, and it’s unhelpful when our rhetoric lends itself to these falsehoods. People who are completely supportive of what Clinton represents are a strong part of the Democratic Party. People who are completely supportive of what Sanders represents are a strong part of the Democratic Party.
That Clinton has much more support within the Democratic Party establishment is completely unsurprising and does not represent some diabolical desire by more conservative institutional Democrats to crush minorities and working people. Bill and Hillary Clinton, the people who worked in the Clinton Administration, the people who worked on their many campaigns, and others associated with the Clintons have helped many people running as Democrats win elected office.
Meanwhile, Bernie Sanders has helped very, very few people running as Democrats win elected office.
This doesn’t mean there is not an ideological fight taking place within the Democratic Party. There certainly is. But that does not mean that there are not these personal issues as well, and it also does not mean that this ideological fight will be resolved in this election or any election. And this is true of both electoral and policy consequences.
For example, even if Bernie Sanders were elected President, a full single payer health care program would not be passed into law by the Federal government during his Administration. If some limited form of single payer were miraculously passed on a Federal level, recent evidence shows that Democratic Party candidates would lose subsequent elections and it would be difficult for Bernie to win a second term.
But that’s just the electoral consequences. What of the policy consequences? From my professional experience in the health care field, I can assure you that installing single payer health care would be extremely difficult, and the number of people who would view themselves as “losers”, aka people who were better off under the previous system, would be very, very large. And not all of them would be wrong. Single payer in most other countries resembles Medicaid more than it does Medicare.
That doesn’t mean a more rational and better health care system should not be talked about and fought for and passed into law where and when we can. It just means that the cartoonish delivery that we often receive of ConservaDems denying Americans what they want and need is simply not so. Liberal Americans have not won the policy argument on many issues with the American people, and we have monied interests who want to preserve and deepen the status quo.
We’re all on the same side of the larger political divide here. It’s worth recognizing that more deeply as we continue to fight for the futures we want.
On “free” trade and foreign policy we are very much NOT on the same side. There are real differences as well as real agreements.
Agreed.
Those “free trade” agreements are totally toxic pills, imo. What are they thinking??????????? I almost disbelieve how bad they really are.
It’s worth noting that, in dropping her support for the TPP, Hillary and her campaign recognizes this reality that large “free trade” agreements are broadly distrusted by Americans. Her change on the agreement can be viewed as cynical opportunism, sure, and Sanders has the real credibility in this area. But let’s not act like Clinton is running on passing the TPP; she’s on record during the campaign as against it.
That would actually be the positive in a Trump candidacy; the Donald is the only GOP candidate who would hold Clinton to her “oppose TPP” position.
As someone who might very well go to jail when TPP passes, I hope so.
Once one reaches a certain level of political and/or financial success, it comes with a “get out of jail free” card. Doesn’t even go that far because they aren’t indicated.
I would not depend on Dems not to pass it. Hope the EU and Canada say “No way.”
Really well written Center. I wish I had said it so well.
It is difficult to take seriously an argument based on 1972 that is so ignorant of 1972. McGovern! has been used for over 40 years as a way to shut up the left. The argument is based largely on complete ignorance of 1972.
So let’s end the ignorance.
Presidential elections involving incumbents are based on the incumbent’s job approval rating. Obama’s was 54 in 2012, and he got 52.
So here is the data on job approval from 1972.
http://ropercenter.cornell.edu/polls/presidential-approval/
It is true there was turmoil in the Democratic Party. But Nixon’s approval ratings in ’72 were very good. In March of that year his numbers were consistently around net +20. From August of 1972 to Election Day there were usually AT LEAST +30 with his approval number usually over 60.
The last approval rating before the election, on November 1, had Nixon’s approval rating at 62-28. He got 60.7%
So the 1972 general election was fought with an establishment President with job approval numbers over 60.
And why wouldn’t Nixon be popular. In 1972
*Nixon held an historic meeting with Mao. Not sure if the writer realizes this, but it was a big deal.
Does Hillary have anything similar coming up?
*Nixon was negotiating an arms agreement with the Soviets.
*And Vietnam. I think Nixon was a War Criminal. But here are two numbers that mattered in the public’s approval of him:
US battle deaths:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War_casualties
On October 27th or thereabouts Time Magazine had on its cover a headline: “Peace is at hand”
On top of this was the inevitable defection of White Southerners from the Dems to the GOP over Civil Rights, in part a result of Nixon’s Southern Strategy.
In 1972 the country overwhelmingly approved of Nixon’s actions on Vietnam. It is true that protests grew. It is true within the Democratic Party anger over the war, RIGHTEOUS ANGER, drove the nomination process.
McGovern was an awful candidate. But I will make one prediction: Bernie Sanders will NOT have dump his VP and choose another one.
But the Democrats did not get buried in 1972 because of George McGovern. They got buried because a popular president was running for re-election. They got buried because of long standing trends among white southerners.
And yet I have heard this bullshit for 40+ years.
It is based on ignorance.
So let’s take a step back and compare the position of the establishment in 1972 and 2016.
In 1968 everyone agreed the establishment was in crisis. The establishment response was to wind down the cause of the crisis: the Vietnam War. As a result, the establishment candidate was wildly popular: BECAUSE THE PUBLIC BELIEVE HE HAD ADDRESSED THE SOURCE OF DISCONTENT.
Today the crisis in the establishment stems from the financial crisis, and Great Recession, and stagnant incomes since 1999.
Has the establishment addressed this?
NO! (Obama has tried to stimulate the economy, but no one was really accountable for the crisis)
People have made the connection between money and politics, and believe in large numbers this connection caused the Great Recession.
Can Hillary Clinton reasonably argue that she will address the causes of the crisis in the establishment?
NO!
There are reasons to be afraid of Sanders. I am from Burlington. I know what he will get hit with. I have seen the numbers on Socialism.
The establishment does have power. Clinton can raise money from it. Sanders cannot. The Media is going to be very hard on Bernie.
But these arguments are purely speculative.
And they have not one damn thing to do with 1972.
True. And an important reminder. However, discounting what the DEM establishment/etc. did to McGovern and the DEM liberal base is also important.
McGovern did try to stick with Eagleton, a perfectly acceptable VP choice. If it had been as clear at that point in the general election cycle that McGovern was going down regardless of whatever he did, he may have chosen to keep Eagleton on the ticket and educated the public about mental illness (ignorance at that time was on the order of 90%) Suspect that he was told that not dumping Eagleton would destroy the party. And then those voices ran away and disappeared after he’d acted. So that essentially, he didn’t have a running mate.
McGovern wasn’t an “awful candidate.” Had Eagleton’s prior treatment for depression never been publicly released (and it shouldn’t have been), Nixon/Agnew may still have won but not so decisively, and when Nixon/Agnew individually went down later, McGovern/Eagleton would have looked a whole lot better and voters a whole lot worse. Dukakis was an “awful candidate” and Gore and Kerry were no better than McGovern.
Screwing up the VP choice was pretty bad – and enough to make him look like an awful candidate. Part of the story was McGovern kept getting turned down. Eagelton was his FOURTH choice.
Theodore White said the 1000% behind Eagleton comment was possibly the worst gaffe of the 20th century. It wasn’t dumping him that really hurt: it was standing behind him and then dumping him that hurt.
In the end Nixon was going to win by a large margin. I am not sure McGovern, with all his problems, mattered more than 2 or 3 points.
The data is pretty clear about that.
But then people making BooMan’s argument never cite the data, do they? I am sure I will hear crickets on this.
Because McGovern is the hammer they have been using for a very long time to silence liberals.
Don’t you find it at least curious that it’s long been reported that McGovern was turned down by his first three choices but little to nothing is ever said about the VP selections of other nominees? Will grant you that not having a more astute sense of who would join him on a ticket before entering the primaries doesn’t make him look like a savvy pol. OTOH, who knows what pressure was put on those pols that said no.) Ike didn’t want Nixon, but the choice was made without his input. Do you think Lodge was Nixon’s choice and there were no pols that declined a potential offer from a party or Nixon emissary? If LBJ had declined JFK’s offer would that have been known in real time? Yeah, and that’s why Goldwater ended up with Miller, an unknown Rep. Having to reach all the way down to Ryan, also suggests that team Romney got a lot of declinations. It was reported and kept alive about McGovern to seal the notion that he was an “awful candidate” and it’s been effective.
How many did Mondale go through before he got a yes from Ferraro? Worst, IMHO, because he claims it was his choice (and not his second, third, or fourth choice) was Gore’s.
I’m not defending McGovern’s less than sterling campaign, but he did get a bad break with Eagleton. Nixon could have gotten a bad break if Agnew had been indicted in Sept/Oct ’72. The ’68 GOP “October surprise” could also have been exposed late in the election cycle or the Watergate dominoes could have fallen quickly in those four months. The crooks beat the “not so good” and only the latter continues to be reviled. Particularly egregious in this campaign as the presumptive DEM nominee touts her close relationships with one of the key members of the crook’s team.
Part of the problem is White himself. White simply had access to the candidates during the period that no one else ever has had.
Hell, White went swimming with RFK the day RFK was shot. He went sailing with JFK on numerous times in ’60 – just the two of them.
Can you imagine a modern reporter with that kind of access?
He gave a series of lectures I went to. The candidates – virtually all of them – gave him material that no one else did. So that is why we know about the offers when it came to McGovern. We know, because White was a Kennedy guy, that Ted Kennedy was actually embarrassed by the things McGovern said to get him on the ticket.
One of the reasons, though, that VP choices are different now is because the Eagelton debacle has made candidates more careful. The picks are made well in advance of the convention, and trail balloons are floated before the pick.
Which actually makes the Palin pick even more fucked up.
From this side of the aisle, the Palin pick does appear to be the most “fucked up.” When a loss is pre-ordained SOP is that the ticket not embarrass the party. However, in ’08 the GOP had to throw out something to appease the fundies. Then when they got around to the idea that IND women were angry that Clinton wasn’t nominated, they lapsed into tunnel vision and didn’t consider that an elected Governor could possibly be dumber than GWB.
I’d also guess that there weren’t many volunteers to sign on as VP. Six GOP incumbent Senators lost in ’06. Four more lost in ’08 and the incumbent GOP Senators were mostly up there in age. They needed someone at least a decade younger than McCain. And none of the loser ’08 GOP candidates were particularly suitable.
Right, it was fucked up, but it was nothing like McGovern. The party wasn’t split. The reason McCain picked Palin was that the RW Council for National Policy gave her thumbs up. They made it clear to McCain that with Palin as his running mate he would have the wholehearted support of the religious right. That’s why he picked her — and the RW supported her like a rock star.
I don’t know what you mean “embarrassing to the party.” Yeah, it should have been, but the GOP at that point was already beyond embarrassment.
http://www.talk2action.org/story/2008/9/1/24846/28141/Front_Page/The_Council_For_National_Policy_Mee
ts_In_Minn_Vets_Palin:
So, here’s what claimed, with this “…Gore and Kerry were no better than McGovern” thing.
Gore won the popular vote and perhaps only a bad Supreme Court ruling prevented him from winning he Electoral College tin 2000.
Kerry was very close in the popular vote and only a razor-thin loss in Ohio prevented him from winning the Electoral College in 2004.
McGovern lost both the popular vote and Electoral College by margins almost unmatched in the history of the United States in 1972.
In what alternative universe are we supposed to believe that Marie3’s claims are correct? Because an alternative universe in which she is the head of the DNC in ’72 would still not have made McGovern as strong a general election candidate as Gore or Kerry.
Not that any of this are good comparatives with the 2016 Dem primary, but, come now.
No there aren’t any good comparisons. Challengers to an incumbent POTUS are always disadvantaged. The record over the past hundred years is four wins and thirteen losses (and three of those were after 1972). (Intra-party challengers to an incumbent POTUS are much rarer and none succeeded in getting the nomination.) A VP moving up for the third term of the party in power has succeeded only once. Hoover was a third term for the GOP and FDR got his own third and fourth terms (that’s not going to happen again) and Truman got his fifth term.
In all those instances we can find unique factors that determined the winner and loser. But for DEMs the big boogieman has been McGovern ’72. Completely dismissing the DEM party crack-up in ’68 and the fact that Wallace was a viable contender for the DEM nomination in ’72 (he won the MI primary with a majority).
Kerry had a united DEM party, no money disadvantage, and ran against an ignorant and disastrous incumbent. (Nixon as a public official was totally corrupt, but his first term record in ’72 wasn’t even close to the disaster of GWB as of ’04). Gore also had a united DEM party, but he did have a money disadvantage until the general election and after it as well. Nobody, including Gore, has ever claimed that he ran a good campaign. The national mood that year was more inclined to stick with the status quo than a change. Gore only fell one state short. Seems pretty dumb to me let it all come down to state where the brother of one’s opponent is the sitting governor. (Has anyone ever won the presidency without carrying his own state?) NH, NV, and WV were all blue in ’92 and ’96 and red in 2000. Gore only needed one of those three.
Does Trump lose any of the states Romney won in 2012? Looking quickly at that map, none of them jump out as sure-fire losses for him? Does he pick up any that Obama won? Trump would have to pick up Florida, Ohio, and Virginia to get close and not lose any of the states that Clintons usually win in the south. Hard to see, at a glance, how Trump stands a chance to get to 270.
He leads in the most recent polling in Florida and Ohio.
There is a decent gap between State and National Polling on this.
Sanders polls better than Clinton in both pretty consistently, and sometimes by significant margins.
Here’s one summary of the electoral map which accounts for both Clinton v. Trump State polls and, where there are no recent Clinton v. Trump polls, some extrapolations based on the 2012 results:
http://www.270towin.com/maps/bMcf
Ohio and Florida are among the States viewed as too close to call, and Hillary has an initial Electoral College edge. Each of these conclusions are sensible.
It’s simply too far away from November for us to take much from polling. Polling throughout the summer of 2012 showed Romney in a good position to win the Electoral College vote. We have not become so polarized that campaigns and the domestic and international events that take place during them have no meaning.
Not at all difficult for me to envision CO, FL, IA, NV, and OH flipping. I’d guess that VA is less likely to flip than WI and MI and at this point expect all of them to remain “blue.” And while I don’t think Trump has been all that good at slicing and dicing his GOP opponents because they are weak and ridiculous all on their own, he could up his game in a GE against Clinton, who contrary to partisan DEM CW has never been subjected to strong and direct political personal attacks filled with innuendos and even lies. Not even close to what she dished out against Obama and has been dishing out against Sanders.
Your claims that Hillary has not received extremely personal and vicious attacks from her opponents in the course of her campaigns are laughable. For me, these claims so quarrel with objective reality that they simply prevent a receiving of some of your arguments as honest ones.
In elections when she is running for office?
Please cite those by her opponents in her ’00, ’06, and ’08 primary races and ’00 and ’06 by her general election opponents (did she have any?)
You’re conflating rightwing noise and loathing for her over two decades with what she has been subjected to during her campaigns. Obama and the other ’08 DEM candidates were very careful to limit their criticisms of Clinton to, you know, her actual fucking record in office and the bizarre and stupid shit that she’s said. That’s all fair game. What isn’t acceptable is to conduct a whispering campaign that a black man is unelectable or concoct lies or completely distorted spins about one’s opponent. As Bill and Chelsea have done this time.
Do you think she’ll fair better on her flip-flopping than Romney did? (Even Kerry’s very limited amount of flip-flopping hurt him in the general.)
Granted that she’s far less vulnerable on many economic and US MIC use of force issues to a standard GOP opponent, but Trump can roast her on much of that record. And regardless of what you think, the Clinton foundation isn’t clean.
Marie3 could choose to stop digging. Instead, she’s really putting her shoulder into that shovel now.
We can look outside the legion of preposterously personal attacks Hillary has received from the right wing; many, many books and reportings have been filled with those. We can just read Marie3’s posts, including the one right here, to see how vicious and extremely personal the attacks are and have been from people on the left.
It’s a special level of blindness, borne by readily apparent personal animus, that we’re witnessing here.
Clinton ran against Lazio in 2000. I remember the debates. They were frisky, but tame compared to Trump. And the worst thing anyone remembers that Obama said about her in 2008 was that she was likable enough.
Hillary Clinton is not liked by many. Never was; never will be. Even those that support her never sound very supportive. Not of her. As a person. Or a leader. They pay tributes and return favors, yes. But she is unloved, almost universally it seems. Tough as nails as a result and disinterested in flattery, all to her benefit.
Quite possible with her many, many liabilities, that Trump might be able to make a game out of trying to run a clean campaign against her but it being simply impossible since what else is there to talk about when it come to Hillary Clinton? He can make up anything he wants and it’s instantly credible because, as admitted, it’s the entirety of her career. It’s going to be disgusting.
Yes, there it is.
Can you not differentiate between an authentic criticism of a person’s record and personal, unwarranted, and undeserved attacks on the person?
I’m not afraid to read what rightwingers write about Hillary, but do very little of it because it’s mostly crap. Started reading Her Way … and threw it down after forty pages because it was poorly written and completely biased. Did read Bernstein’s “A Woman in Charge:” because he’s a good writer and authentically likes and respects her, but that didn’t preclude his ability to be objective.
I don’t know what you do with a candidate that says one day that she’s progressive, another day that she’s conservative, and another day that she’s severely moderate. Hillary’s words, not mine. Or that far too often she’s for it before she’s against it and vice versa. Who didn’t refrain from using race in ’08 and has surrogates out there this time spewing lies about Sanders positions and as person.
Do you seriously think that Hillary’s untrustworthy poll ratings are based on nothing but rightwing propaganda? That she’s never done anything to give that credence?
That anyone that mentions matters of her public record is blind and stupid? That I don’t have a right to be repulsed by someone that says, “We came, we saw, he died” and then laughs? Seemed a perfectly acceptable response to partisan DEMs when GWB made similar statements.
So sad to see such a level of hypocrisy among Democrats that spent eight years claiming that Republicans were stupid and hypocritical.
Your attacks are extremely personal, as are the ones by the right wing. That you believe yours are justified by “the facts” does nothing to change the nature of them, and does nothing to change the fact that your claims that Hillary has not faced personal attacks are false. It’s a broad and outrageous claim.
The right wing also believes their attacks against Hillary are warranted by “facts”. They also believe their attacks on Bernie, every single leader in the Democratic Party and liberal/progressive movements, Dirty Fucking Hippies, and you and me are justified by the facts. I hope that you find this worth considering.
You’d do better here if you could come up with one deeply felt, even a little inspired, positive thing to say about Ms. Clinton. Can you? Go.
Let me reiterate that I’m voting for Bernie, so my interest in detailing outstanding parts of Hillary’s record is muted.
Despite the fact that her campaigns have been supported by many monied interests, and despite the fact that she could have voted in a much more centrist way and held her power in New York while doing so, Hillary’s voting record was one of the most liberal in the Senate. These included votes where she affirmed the need to increase taxes and regulations on wealthy people and corporations.
In addition, she has abandoned support for the Trans-Pacific Partnership, as she previously abandoned support for the Keystone pipeline. She has made some of her wealthy business friends very unhappy with these positions. She made it easier for us to defeat Keystone and has increased our chances of defeating the TPP.
You are freaking unbelievable.
Ah, once again it is the duty of the discredited establishment which has NO answers to lead and the duty of everyone else to knuckle under.
All I’ve seen from the GOP establishment is nonplussed flailing, and all I’ve seen from the Dem establishment is attempts at voter depression and double dealing.
If the establishment elites hadn’t been leading us into confusion and disaster for the past 15 years maybe you’d have a better case.
The best of the establishment elites were among those involved in leading us out of much greater confusion and disaster during the 2008 election and the 111th Congress. Those are parts of the history as well.
And at that moment of supreme emergency it was barely enough. I think that says a lot about how much faith to have in them in non-emergency situations.
1930-32 showed us that the wrong elites deal with supreme emergencies poorly. We elected the right people to have the most leadership of our country in 2009-10.
Receiving near zero recognition of what they have accomplished (for example, the many who thoroughly disrespect the incredible things the President and the 111th Congress achieved) makes it harder for the hated elites to take our movement seriously sometimes, I believe.
I want elites to take us seriously. A sub-sector of them will have great power whether we like it or not. The proletariat is not going to gain total control of the means of production.
Cheap shot.
We’d settle for real regulators who do not belong to the industries they regulate.
The screamingly radical reactions from the business and conservative movements to recent actions by the BLM, FDA, EPA, NLRB, CPFB and the Justice Department, among others, show that many Federal regulatory agencies have been revived under President Obama’s leadership.
Charles Murray is one of the most influential writers in the elite conservative movement. His latest book claims government regulatory agencies have so much unchecked power that he recommends massive civil disobedience in response and details how it should be done. I’m not kidding:
https:/www.washingtonpost.com/news/book-party/wp/2015/05/06/the-case-for-conservative-civil-disobed
ience
The response from mino here is exactly the kind of extreme and absolute claim that I’m pushing against. It’s dispiriting, disempowering, and false. It doesn’t help. We can oppose, for example, Wall Street unaccountability without going overboard.
We gotta have hope. We should employ facts and reason in our arguments. Let the right wing be the ones to take leave from our reality-based community.
They scream over a hangnail, they are so cosseted.
Do you really want me to link all the industry insiders who currently hold high positions in our regulatory agencies? Shall I start with Monsanto, EPA and FDA? Then maybe the new drug guy? Etc, etc.
Or railroad regulators, if you want a real laugh.
Yes, we have major regulatory problems. But to pretend falsely that regulatory agencies have not improved their intentionally poor performances during the Bush Administration is to engage in a particularly pernicious version of Both Siderism.
“What good did it do to elect Obama? He’s letting everyone get away with everything.” It’s a problematic lie.
It’s a “problematic lie” because it happens to be the truth?
Sorry, sunshine.
And adding explanatory flourishes to ‘splain your calling me a liar does not advance your case.
So the performance of, say, the NLRB is as servile to business interests and as hostile to worker interests as the Bush Administration?
Let’s start with your justifications of that claim against the NLRB, if you’re making it. Then we can go on to review the performances of other Agencies.
I’m not defending all actions of all Agencies under the Obama Administration. I’m making what I see as a factual claim that regulatory agencies’ performances have improved during Obama’s Presidency.
Your claim, if you’re making it, that the Agencies are just as bad as they were under Bush, encourages Americans to stop caring, because it doesn’t matter what you do or who you vote for. I say the evidence shows that it does matter what you do and who you vote for.
Here is the link I remembered. And no, your strawman statements are not what I replied to your red-baiting.
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20111221/17561617164/mapping-out-revolving-door-between-govt-big-b
usiness-venn-diagrams.shtml
No strawman statement, a question: is the performance of the NLRB during the Clinton Administration as hostile to workers’ interests as it was during the Bush Administration? Please answer that question, specific to the actions of the Board.
Venn diagrams detailing relationships from 2011 do literally nothing to answer that question. It’s very unwise to stop our analysis there. Stopping there would result in an annihilative, reductionist conclusion which empowers the right wing.
“The proletariat is not going to gain total control of the means of production.”
Do you think this statement has any relevance to anyone’s position these days?
I withdraw the statement, and apologize for its sentiment.
Now, how about the NLRB?
I will do some searching tomorrow and post my reply. Having a functional NLRB has been difficult with Republicans refusing to allow Dems to appoint missing members.
So, Clinton vs which Bush? I’m going with Junior, here.
The NRLB was defanged quite some time ago. Perhaps in the ’70s, but the effort may have continued for another couple of decades.
But all departments and agencies were hit over the years. Clinton’s “Reinventing Government” initiative figured into the equation of reducing the regulatory workforce. That also continued under GWB. It’s a reason why Bunnatine Greenhouse was such a lonely voice when she went public with the violations of federal contracting requirements by the Bush administration.
Back in the ’70s and early ’80s, which I know from first hand experience, federal banking and securities regulators were skilled and tough. Yet another legacy from the New Deal that contributed to no market/banking crashes for fifty years.
Gosh, you really don’t know what you don’t know. The NLRB’s fangs lengthen under Democratic Party Presidents and recede under Republican Presidents, and have for the timeframe you mention here. It’s not one solid trend.
Here’s a fair-minded critique of the “Reinventing Government” effort begun under Vice President Gore’s assigned oversight:
http://www.govexec.com/management/2013/04/what-reinvention-wrought/62836/
It mentions the hundreds of thousands of government jobs cut over the decades. The report does offer criticism of and names consequences for the many, many jobs that the Clinton Administration eliminated from the Pentagon and other Defense Department efforts.
But, again, there’s no through line that continues unabated from Administration to Administration. From the linked report:
“When George W. Bush entered the Oval Office in 2001, there was a “noticeable chilling” toward reinventing government, Light recalls, citing a return to the Reagan-era notion that “the problem with government is government.” The Bush team didn’t like bureaucracy and favored outsourcing, he says. Many reinvention efforts were undone, such as the overhaul of the Federal Emergency Management Agency. That led to the widely criticized federal response to Hurricane Katrina in 2005, according to Light.
But Robert Shea, a top OMB official under President Bush and now a principal with Grant Thornton LLP, says the Bush team was careful “not to throw out the baby with the bath water.” Criticism of the reinventing government formula was threefold, he says. “It was not aligned with the major challenges, it didn’t tie budgets to each agency’s commitment to improving management, and there wasn’t a lot of rigor behind the progress reported and savings achieved,” he says.
Much of this was borne out by reports from the Government Accountability Office and Congress, says Shea, who was a Senate Governmental Affairs Committee staffer during the NPR movement. According to Shea, many Clinton management reforms were viewed as not yet refined, and Bush opted to centralize their coordination and narrow the focus to five buckets: human capital, competitive sourcing, financial performance, electronic government, and budget and performance integration.
“Everything [Bush’s team] did was based in some way on work being done by Reinventing Government,” he says, citing the 2002 E-Government Act as an example. But during the transition from Clinton to Bush as well the one from Bush to Obama, Shea says, “we lost a lot of progress that had been made by wanting to put a new cover on the agenda.”
In many ways, “Bush started out in a very positive direction,” Kamarck says, noting he retained the President’s Management Council. But then he “went backwards in dismantling the labor-management partnerships,” she argues. The Gore team “was proud of our relationship with unions,” Kamarck adds.”
No. I do not post without checking the accuracy of my memory.
Pardon for any misunderstanding; I was responding in this post to another commenter in this section of the thread.
Under Republicans, and under neo-liberal Dems, the trend has gradually been towards making regulating agencies boosters of their industries instead of regulators. We have forgotten the very good reasons why those agencies were established in the first place. If academia were not so compromised by bought science, we could staff from those worlds. Would be good to teach Upton Sinclair in schools again.
Instead of state-planned economies, we are beginning to see corporations using the levers of state. Ukraine won’t be the first, I suspect.
That was started When JP Morgan was the financing behind the founding the Council on Foriegn Relations. During the great depression the financing was passed from Morgan centric to Rockefeller centric foriegn policy, but both didn’t have the average American’s interests at heart. BTW both Dulles brothers and Kissinger were in the pockets of Rockefeller money. The Reagan revolution moved the center from Rockefeller family interests to the Wall Street cartel.
The corporate control over foreign and monetary policy is well over a century old here. In the 21st century they just think they can come out of the shadows.
True. Our South and Central American adventures, of course, did that. But Spheres of Influence…you know.
What is new is how far from home we are playing. And indeed, masks are off. I keep thinking of the East India Company.
You mean right after WW2, when the CIA was created and they started toppling governments in places like Guatemala, Iran and fighting wars like in Vietnam?
And that is just a tweet from the 1950’s … they upped their game in the 60’s-today
The NLRB saw the appointments of corporate attorneys under both W. and Daddy Bush.
You share some good knowledge here about another agency where Congressional Republicans have had some temporary success obstructing the work of the President’s appointees and Barack’s right to appoint. You’ll discover in your further searching that the Supreme Court has had its fingers in this obstruction as well.
The good news is that you’ll also discover that the conservative movement has failed to completely stymie the NLRB, despite their historically extraordinary efforts. This is true of other agencies as well.
The plutocrats desperately want the White House back for a reason. The Judiciary and Legislative branches can’t stop everything the Executive and his Administration does.
A few comments:
I’m old enough to have been a high school kid volunteering for the McGovern campaign. This was in a very conservative part of southern California. I did door to door canvassing and got chased off by people shouting that they were going to vote for George Wallace, dammit. So yeah, the Democratic Party was pretty deeply split. Draw whatever lesson from that that you wish to.
As my first point implies, not everyone commenting here or concerned about our country’s direction is a Millennial. That doesn’t mean we don’t share the concerns of that generation. I’m paying for one kid’s college education while the other is back living at home because she can’t find a job that pays well enough to live independently.
For a long time now, the clearest distinction between the Democrats and Republicans has been one of tone: hope vs. fear. This was of course made very explicitly by the Obama 2008 campaign, but it’s not new.
Democrats like yours truly are reasonably comfortable on a personal level but still see that many others are not and are motivated by that observation. I can choose to respond in a hopeful fashion or in a fearful fashion. I choose the former. And guess what? So does Bernie Sanders. Through all his rhetoric of outrage, he maintains a very hopeful disposition. Hillary Clinton strikes me as being constantly torn between hope and fear.
It seems to me that Donald Trump has cornered the market on the politics of fear. Whoever is the Democratic candidate in the general election would be stupid to try to compete with Trump on that point. The Democrat has to say, look, we have these problems, they’re causing a lot of suffering for a lot of people, we’ve got to address them, and here’s how. Hammer that message home but do not succumb to fear-mongering. There is no way to out-Trump Trump with fear-mongering. If Hillary Clinton is the candidate and takes that approach, we are fucked.
I’m curious Joe, what city in SoCal?
.
I tremble for a 2018 election with Hillary in office. I think that will make 2010 look like 2006.
Way too soon for such dire predictions nearly three years away. That’s plenty of time for plenty of Republicans to be caught with their hands (etc.) in some sort of pot.
Occupy Wall Street was an embarrassment for the Establishment to say the least. Democrats were just getting comfortable in their new DLC role of being the party of Big Money and now the topic of conversation was being shifted to inequality like never before. Democratic leaders had their role in calling out the police goon squads to break some heads. You think you can express whatever you want because, after all, this is America. But if you come down here to do it, you do so at your own personal peril. The OWS people had no leaders or for that matter, any microphones. They worked around these issues but were brutally crushed. The issues and the feeling about them however remained.
Then suddenly out of nowhere, OWS was back but his time with a leader and a microphone confronting the Establishment inside the Democratic Party on that same issue, inequality. Instead of meeting in a park with police chasing us, this time it’s inside the Democratic Party, protected by the Secret Service as we try to capture the most powerful microphone of all, the Bully Pulpit to create a chance to make a much needed political revolution a reality.
Not only did the Establishment make the Democratic nomination process more undemocratic than the GOP but now we’re told that any challenge to our beloved Establishment makes us all look bad, divides us and weakens us just as the GOP is collapsing. That is the most cynical thing I’ve heard this election cycle. But what did I expect in the year of the populist when all the Establishment has to offer is to turn cynicism into pragmatism?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/larry-harris-jr/hillary-clinton-the-candidate-of-cynicism_b_9322700.ht
ml
The problem here is not Hillary personally but the struggle to do something about Neoliberalism. Our decision on the choices we face can affect the entire world. Those choices are:
(1) We go to hell in a hand basket characterized by economic stagnation, radicalized politics and social unrest, destructive inequality, and resource wars between nations.
(2) The elected governments of the world acknowledge the major roles they play in a peaceful future. They pick themselves up off their collective asses, take their responsibilities seriously – and in particular take the economic reins from central bankers – and start providing the services, infrastructure, progressive tax systems, and opportunities that their constituents need.
http://mathbabe.org/2016/02/24/neoliberalism-is-being-challenged/
So we’re allowed to go off and have our primary fun but the DNC is there to save us from ourselves. In a multi-candidate race like McGovern and Jimmy Carter I can see why the Establishment would want a way to choose the candidate that might align better with the Democratic Party. In a two person race that veto would be a disaster. I’m assured from every direction that the Establishment would never overrule, no matter how small a majority of voters but these people doing the right thing scares me almost as much as a President Trump. Try to imagine how Trump would put it if Hillary was so weak she couldn’t even win a majority of Democrats needing to be bailed out by the Clinton Machine.
We are fond of saying the Republicans have created their own monster but maybe we should consider that the Democrats have as well created their own monster, the Clinton Machine.
http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/2016/02/the-decline-and-fall-of-hillary-clinton.html
Those of us who want to pull the Democratic Party and domestic/international political power away from powerful neoliberals and their destructive policies do great damage to our prospects when they mythologize the power of the DNC and other Party leaders and institutions.
They’re simply not as powerful as is claimed, and the 2008 and 2016 Democratic Party Presidential primaries have proven that. So did the production of the 11th Congress, even though that Congress had to deal with extraordinary and absolute levels of obstruction and monkeywrenching by the GOP Congressional caucuses.
If the electorate had chosen to keep the Democrats in control of Congress, the total record and the ideology of President Obama and Congressional Democrats would be perceived much differently by you and others.
Of course, I meant to refer to the 111th Congress.
Jean-Marie Le Pen endorses Donald Trump
Fascists got to stand together.
I don’t know. Suspect a higher percentage of Europeans are horrified by Trump than Americans are; so, Le Pen’s endorsement may cost those few extra points she need to take over France.
Also, Le Pen’s racism/fascism is Eurocentric and Trump’s is US-centric. There are differences between the two.
This is her father.
Yeah, the old man is really toxic. She is more polished.
I will hang with Bernie at least until Massachusetts bc I think his proposals are very necessary. But he has several flaws. He lacks AA support, his revolution is misfiring, he gets no respect from MSM and he has too few endorsements. So Super Tuesday may be Waterloo. We will see.
Sanders needs to win Massachusetts (among other primaries) to stay credible. The latest poll results are noteworthy, given the high percentage of college-age people in this state:
http://www.wbur.org/2016/02/25/wbur-poll-trump-clinton-sanders
The game changer here could be Elizabeth Warren. Who will she endorse and when?
The nominee, at the convention. I don’t see it happening before then.
In my opinion, in a general election, Bernie could get a considerable number of the Reagan Democrats and a decent number of the evangelicals, who used to vote Democrat.
Not sure I’d go that far. First, the Reagan Democrats are mostly dead. The evangelical glue has been abortion and so-called family values. Trump challenges them on “family values,” and his tepid opposition to abortion may not be compelling enough for them. OTOH, Trump trumpets “jobs, jobs, jobs for Americans” (no specifics or policy proposals other than kicking out and keeping illegal immigrants (as if any of the jobs they hold are well paying and desired by white Americans) and telling corporations to bring the US jobs back from China, etc. (as worthless as Hillary telling Wall St “to cut it out) and that’s the music that they’ve been longing to hear.
Sanders has it right that the country has long under-invested in infrastructure (Carter did run on that in 1980 in the limited amount of time that he spent campaigning), but it’s not connecting as “jobs.” And perhaps it wouldn’t as the domestic supplies and skilled work force necessary for such investments has eroded so much over the decades that the economic bang for the buck of infrastructure projects is now a fraction of what it once was. The housing boom in the naughts didn’t lead to a new generation of skilled carpenters; only imported legal and illegal workers. And much of the construction was of inferior quality compared with what used to be built in this country.
European and Chinese contracts for USian infrastructure? Not impossible these days. Chinese are building nuclear plants in Europe, I believe.
Check out the new SF Bay Bridge. And heavy engineering contractors remain relatively strong on the west coast.
Good to see that!
But this company BUILT most of the bridge;
Shanghai Zhenhua Port Machinery Co. Ltd.
built in China
Oh, dear. Does infrastructure spending even act as stimulus when huge chunks go overseas? That looks like Africa! What are the multipliers?
And the thing about this Bay Bridge subcontracting issue is that not only did much of the money go to overseas companies, the quality of the steel for a bridge construction which was supposed to last for a half-century or more was very suspect. Here’s a brief summary from an engineer about the history of the project:
http://www.sfgate.com/opinion/openforum/article/State-engineers-story-of-how-Bay-Bridge-was-5661338.
php
Too many fingerprints on the whole thing to assign singular blame, but Governor Schwarzenegger was the one who stopped and re-started negotiations and had the most power to influence the final set of project components.
And here’s a story about the steel and the discoveries which have been made about it:
http://www.wired.com/2015/06/mystery-brand-new-bay-bridges-corroded-steel/
So, yeah, paying cheaper on the front end can be costly and dangerous on the back end. On the bonus side, the conservative movement can use this as a demonstration of How Government Doesn’t Work, even though they had a primary role in breaking government in the State with Proposition 13 and other monkeywrenching. A very direct line can be drawn from the budget and revenue restrictions created by Prop 13 in 1978 and the horrible budget deficits during the first decade of the 21st century. Those deficits perverted the process which completed the Bay Bridge project.
Yes, that has been the experience in several African states–Chinese construction is not designed to last longer than the loan repayments, if that. But upfronting the loans and the sweeteners to elites give them an edge.
When I used the term Reagan Democrats, I meant people who are pro-union. Bernie strikes a chord with these people. Even though some of these people are not in a union, due to the decline, their fathers and mothers were union members. There is some diversity within the evangelicals–the whole abortion/birth control issue was a Catholic doctrine. After being in favor of funding Planned Parenthood, Nixon reversed his decision in order to court the Catholic vote for his re-election campaign of 1972. Nixon advisers hoped to divide Democrats this way.