There are pockets of this country where engaged Democrats are emphatically rejecting Hillary Clinton’s candidacy. And it has to be a concern for her campaign.
The front-runner may possess a substantial lead, support from elected officials, and the backing of the party establishment. But in the three states where voters caucused on Saturday, they cast their ballots for Bernie Sanders by huge margins. In Hawaii, with most votes tallied, he chalked up 71 percent; in Washington, he held 73 percent; and in Alaska, he claimed 82 percent support.
…Sanders’s voters seem undeterred by Clinton’s advantages. “I feel like probably for the first time since I’ve been voting I connect with somebody I really believe in and that I trust,” one supporter told the Seattle Times. Saturday’s vote suggests she’s not alone. Party officials in Washington said that at least 225,000 voters showed up, rivaling the record turnout of 2008; the 10,600 who voted in Alaska exceeded that state’s 2008 tally; and the 33,716 in Hawaii, while below the 2008 level, included 7,000 new Democrats registered since late last year.
Sanders won from wall to wall. He took every county in Washington, and in Alaska, he posted double-digit margins in all 40 districts.
It many ways this is a repeat of 2008, the difference being that Clinton has the black vote this time around and that was enough for her to build a huge delegate lead in the South. She is probably fortunate that the southern states voted before the industrial Midwest and before Sanders could demonstrate romping victories in the Mountain States and Far West.
What’s clear is that Clinton will have to deal with very widespread disappointment within her own base when she becomes the nominee. To compensate, she’ll have to show the army of Bernie supporters some immediate and tangible rewards for their efforts and their successes. She’ll also have to hope that she can win the enthusiastic support and endorsement of Sanders. Without these things, there will be large-scale disaffection, with a whole new generation of organizers feeling like the game is rigged and tempted to drop out in a fit of cynicism and apathy. Many more will move over to a fairly disloyal oppositional stance to her presidency, possibly coalescing into a more potent primary challenge in 2020.
Clinton’s weakness and failure to consolidate the party behind her is not necessarily a liability in a head-to-head contest against someone like Trump who shares the same liabilities to a much greater degree. A disgruntled left can help convince wary voters that she’s a moderate, middle-of-the-road “safe” choice, especially compared to the unpredictable real estate clown.
But she’ll need a friendlier Congress, including a Senate controlled by Chuck Schumer and a House that will be at least de facto controlled by Democrats and Republican appropriators. She does not want to see all the newly registered voters who are going for Sanders dropping out of the general because they only got into politics to support her primary opponent.
She might want to start winning some states again, too, since losing in places like Pennsylvania and her home state of New York would be embarrassing and cause her to limp to the finish line rather than cross it in a triumphant sprint.
If I were John Podesta, I’d be making up a very big gift bag for Bernie. This would include consultations on the veep, and concessions on many key appointments. Sanders will want a say in the staffing at Treasury, for example. He may have other demands, too. He’ll need to get some very visible wins that he can show his voters so they can feel like what they’ve done has made a difference and can continue to make a difference.
the game is totally rigged. it’s not just a feeling.
Bernie’s campaign has been trashing her as being “corrupt” and a tool of the “millionaires and billionaires™ ” for months. I expect her to reach out to him – she knows how politics works, but he needs to do a lot of work to dial back the attacks on her so that his idealistic voters won’t feel betrayed when Bernie says they should vote for her (and for down-ticket candidates). I think he can do it, but I think he made the work needlessly difficult by the way he ran his campaign.
They’re on the same team, and the team winning is vitally important.
It’ll be interesting to see how it plays out, but I’m not too worried about lack of unity in the fall.
My $0.02.
Cheers,
Scott.
That approach has worked quite well on my sister, who believes that Hillary is no different from Trump or Cruz, is only there for the billionaires, a “corporate whore” (her words), culminating in the statement that if it’s not Sanders, she’s staying home.
Any efforts on my part or my father’s to explain otherwise were roundly rejected, with a lecture that we don’t know how “it” works.
My wife J is a big Bernie fan. I know what you’re going through.
Fortunately, election day is a long way off.
Hang in there.
Cheers,
Scott.
I always tell people: If your candidate doesn’t win the nomination, you should vote for whomever your candidate is going to vote for.
If someone wants to sit at home and let shit burn to the ground, they should at least be honest about it.
I think that’s what will happen. Sanders is reaching voters because of who he is. How the HRC campaign can begin to reach the ppl who are responding to Sanders eludes me. I think a large % of the Sanders crowds will stay home – not the Sanders supporters who post here, but the 10s of thousands he’s brought into the process. There’s a lot of despair out there that ppl haven’t been able to put a name to. Sanders is helping people verbalize and expect more.
Many of those haven’t ever voted before. If Sanders loses, it’s incumbent upon him, I believe, to do the best he can to rally his troops. And to dissuade them from sitting home or writing in his name. He has to point out the dangers of a Republican victory in November.
I’m not sure if Clinton or Sanders would be interested in Sanders actively trying to get his voters to support Clinton. I take Sanders at face value when he says he is leading a revolution and will take the fight to the convention. He’s not a Democrat, he owes the party nothing and the party owes him nothing, he will never run for President again, and his seat in the Senate is safe. I think he’s too sincere in his beliefs to take a promise in return for supporting someone he doesn’t really support. He would rather fight for airtime to express his views at the convention, rather than trying insincerely to say that Clinton embodies his values. I think he does believe Clinton would be better for Trump, and I can imagine him attacking Trump, but not praising Clinton. I think Clinton also realizes that Sanders would be bad at bullshitting and would not go out of her way to offer him anything for his support. Similarly, Sanders probably would not count a promise from Clinton to do anything as worth very much.
If this is true, it is one reason why Sanders doesn’t deserve to be the Democratic party nominee. Which is to say, I disagree with you.
Sanders is attempting to foment change, but he is not an idiot. He will ultimately support Clinton, and vote for her as well.
I agree.
If Sanders doesn’t give Hillary his full-throated endorsement at the convention then he’s nothing but a latter-day Ralph Nader.
I think Bernie is better than that. No, he’s not a Democrat, but at the end of the day he is practical about helping the people. He’ll do his best to get her elected.
And objectively speaking, is she not “corrupt” and a tool of the “millionaires and billionairesTM “?
She certainly seems that way to me. And for the record, I am a 63 year old white woman who should be totally in the tank for her, according to the Party Establishment and the MSM.
As a fan of the late, great Molly Ivins, I have to say that Molly’s opinion from 2006 still holds up as far as I am concerned:
“I’d like to make it clear to the people who run the Democratic Party that I will not support Hillary Clinton for president.
Enough. Enough triangulation, calculation and equivocation. Enough clever straddling, enough not offending anyone….
If Democrats in Washington haven’t got enough sense to OWN the issue of political reform, I give up on them entirely.
Do it all, go long, go for public campaign financing for Congress. I’m serious as a stroke about this — that is the only reform that will work, and you know it, as well as everyone else who’s ever studied this. Do all the goo-goo stuff everybody has made fun of all these years: embrace redistricting reform, electoral reform, House rules changes, the whole package. Put up, or shut up. Own this issue, or let Jack Abramoff politics continue to run your town.”
http://freepress.org/columns/display/1/2006/1304
Texas used to have some serious Progressives. Only a few left worth shooting.
Go ahead and vote Trump/Cruz, or stay home.
Texas will be Republican anyway.
Don’t worry, the rest of us have your back.
Yeah, I even have a Blue Dog congressman–right in the middle of a major urban city.
Is that all you’ve got in the middle of the primary season? Seems as if I’ve been hearing this from HRC supporters for close to a year now.
Plenty of time to bully, cajole, and play the big bad GOP fear card as the nomination is complete. Right now it’s nothing but a hypothetical you and others are using to denigrate those that have principles and ethics that there not into tossing away unless or until they have no choice but to succumb, once again, to the lesser evil. But badgering them isn’t go to make easier for them to do so.
I’ve done my part. I’ve voted for Sanders here in Georgia.
I’ve converted (a few years ago) a Florida Republican into a Georgia socialist who voted for Sanders here in Georgia and will vote for the dastardly, worst-than-B̶u̶s̶h̶ Trump/Cruz candidate.
Perhaps you should take a step back, take a deep breath, and refocus your energy on getting Sanders the Democratic nomination, instead of shitting all over HRC every chance you get, while accusing anyone who sees political reality different than you, as lacking ethics and principles.
It’s hilarious that the Sanders diehards are more virulent in their attacks on people who don’t shit on HRC, than HRC diehards are on Sanders.
Jesus Christ almighty, I see much more civility from diehard HRC people on this specific forum towards Sanders, than I do from Sanders people.
But hey, go ahead, tell me about my lack of ethics and principles some more. Perhaps if you do it enough my guilt will allow me to travel back in time to vote for Sanders 18 times instead of just 1 time.
Well said.
Is it impolite to talk about the billions that Clinton has secured from the wealthiest 1% and how that may just maybe affect her outlook on things?
Is pointing out that Kissinger and Albright aren’t good character references off limits?
No Bob, it’s not. But you know that. You’re using a mis direction.
What is at issue is not discussing positions, but adding personal attacks aimed at posters. This is a method used to intimidate and silence. Shoot, it works on me. There are several people here whom I will not respond directly to, simply because I don’t want to get in some personal argument and exchange insults.
That is what has been happening for weeks at the Booman Tribune.
But you know all this.
.
No, but it’s quite impolite to accuse him of not having principles, as Marie did. It’s also impolite to, as she did downthread, accuse members of Clinton’s base of caring about nothing but for the fact that she’s female.
There are lots of people who like Hillary for various reasons. Maybe they’re more moderate on economics. Maybe they’re more hawkish on foreign affairs. Maybe they don’t find Sanders’s proposals all that realistic.
There are also lots of people who dislike Hillary for various reasons. Maybe they think she’s too moderate on economics. Maybe they don’t like her hawkishness (this one certainly applies to me). Maybe they’re just sick of the Clintons.
To borrow a bit from Atrios: People disagree about stuff.
You can disagree without insulting people.
The longer the primary goes on, the more disillusioned I am with both Sanders and his supporters. And I’ve never been a fan of the Clintons. So I’m sort of left thinking, “I don’t care who wins as long as they win in November and secure SCOTUS.”
I’d take Obama over either Sanders or Hillary in a heartbeat.
I miss Molly Ivins. Her sense of humor made politics so much more bearable. I have not found anyone yet to replace her. BTW, Ivins’ opinion of HRC in 2006 holds up for me too.
The House flipped and Democrats took a slim Senate majority in 2006. I think she would have been happy with the change in direction.
She liked Obama, but didn’t live to see him win (or much of the campaign).
She saw the big picture. I have no doubt she’d be happy to vote for Hillary in the fall of 2016 if she were still with us.
FWIW.
Cheers,
Scott.
I think you have missed something very important about the 2016 election, although the signs have been apparent for some years now. A paradigm shift is occurring in both parties. People do not want to be told to vote for Candidate X for president, nor the candidates who are running down-ticket. The game is changing, whether the political establishments, media, talking heads, and the Washington Beltway believe it or not. It is in their interests that the game not change, so they can continue to peddle their wares. It’s just people aren’t buying the product.
Can we please not get into the same stances as have been expressed here again and again. Booman is talking reality as he sees it. Perhaps you disagree. But at least let’s discuss his premise.
As a precinct chair I am concerned about the folks who changed their registrations from Ind or Did Not State to Dem, to vote for Bernie. They are young as a rule. Generally disinterested and distrustful of politics. They’ll often say, outside the health food store where we register folks: “I don’t vote. The parties are the same.” Many here would agree with that. Permagov, anyone?
But there will be a nominee. Probably Clinton. So how do I (we) maintain interest with these folks who became Dems, but generally are low-interest voters, now juiced up to vote for Bernie?
I’m guessing that he will have to endorse her sometime in June, as Hillary did for Obama. Before the convention to give it some time to settle in. But keeping “the revolution” alive? I’m guessing that it’s the #2 slot. If Bernie were given the opportunity to name the VP on a Clinton ticket, who would he choose? It wouldn’t be him. Too old. So are there ideas out there? Could it be Warren? Two women on the ticket? Is that a step too far? I’m coming up dry and would like to hear some sensible ideas.
Nobody currently serving in Congress, especially in the Senate, please. They really can’t be spared. And not Russell Feingold for the same reason, because he needs to get reelected.
Christine Gregoire.
Deval Patrick.
Ed Lee.
Better still, the Tom Perez idea.
Much preferable to the Castro lightweight.
Following your link, I see Tiger-Beat-on-Potomac (or is that WaPo, I forget) has an article about that possibility (didn’t read it, just saw headline and found the notion intriguing).
Taking a liberal Dem out of the Senate is an obvious downside to the notion. I like Franken and think he’s been a good Senator (which, as with Warren, may be the best argument for keeping him there, though).
He would absolutely shore up her left flank.
You probably won’t, frankly. As Booman pointed out in his potted McGovern history, relying on such people to turn out in November is a fool’s errand and always has been. And I say that as a Bernie voter and donor.
Sanders is going to have to explain to them that that’s the best way for the revolution to continue. That won’t be an easy thing to explain, but it will help that he is going to continue leading it.
I don’t see how anybody can say that Hillary doesn’t want their votes. Of course she does, a vote is a vote.
Maybe this sounds odd, but if Sanders can do this, it will be something like a vote for Hillary is the nearest thing to vote for Sanders.
Booman’s right, she ought to treat Sanders very well. That’s not really her style, but I think she’s going to have to. She has some serious weaknesses, and he will come to the convention with some serious strengths.
Amanda Curtis from Montana
fear this would be setting her up for ridicule as “Sarah-Palin-lite” in terms of experience — which she doesn’t deserve (and I suspect that, unlike Palin, she’s smart enough to recognize that).
yes, very little experience, but as soon as she started talking their mistake would be obvious. now that I think about it, she’s got “a lot of Bernie” in her, in that her positions derive from her life experience (and training as a scientist), very clear, quick responses on her feet
American politics is messed up. It almost doesn’t matter who did it or why anymore. It just is. Under these conditions where many seem pretty much fed up with the status quo (for whatever reason) there is little to recommend Clinton as a candidate. She’s smart and experienced and all the things we want in a manager… but she will be a good manager of a fundamentally corrupt and utterly useless federal government. She will keep the medicare and SS checks coming just like all the other candidates, but other than that, she cannot and will not deliver anything in the way of change or even modest reform. No one will… not Trump, Cruz, or Kasich and not Sanders either.
So it really doesn’t matter who wins because it never actually matters. Corporations and Wall Street will continue to loot and pillage just as they have throughout the Obama administration. The death and destruction of endless war will continue just as it has throughout the Obama administration. The country will argue over abortion and other culture war issues while absolutely nothing changes. The rich will get richer and the poor and middle class will get by just as they always do.
If you have decent skills and abilities (about 20-40% of adults), you will do fine. The rest are screwed but so what? They’ve always been screwed.
Clinton is a weak candidate for the same reasons she was a weak candidate in 2008. I didn’t vote for her then either.
Perhaps we should simply stop pretending any of this stuff actually matters in our lives as we actually live them.
I’m sorry, but if you truly believe that nothing will change if the Republicans gain full control of the government, take a look at Kansas and Louisiana. Things are not great, but they have plenty of room to get a whole lot worse.
I’ve lived in Kansas for going on 3 years now… I can’t tell the difference between here and anywhere else I’ve ever lived.
A lot of women, LGBT people, and people with kids in public schools, among others, might like to have a word with you about that perception.
I know plenty of people who fall into all those groups… they are all the same everywhere.
They are the same. Scared. I have daughters who don’t have to worry about bleeding to death on a hospital floor because a doctor was told that it’s fine to let women die rather than give them a medically necessary abortion. I will not let them lose that security. The parties are damn well not the same.
Well, then you are quite privileged and fortunate. Many in your State are not so fortunate, and are being made to suffer. Almost everyone with a child in the literally unconstitutionally underfunded public school system, for example.
Please consider this essay, one of many which have cropped up in recent weeks:
http://qz.com/644985/privilege-is-what-allows-sanders-supporters-to-say-theyll-never-vote-for-clinto
n/
…
It’s one thing to prefer one candidate over another. That’s healthy. That’s admirable. It’s another to actively hate a candidate for doing exactly the same things as the last three men you voted for, despite her liberal record. Let’s think practically about the election in November.
How privileged do you need to be to imagine that it’s a good idea to risk the actual lives of vulnerable Americans because you “hate” Clinton?
If Donald Trump gets elected, how many vulnerable people will be hurt, how many programs cut, how bad will the the economy get under conservative policies? How much damage will be done if Trump, an open racist and misogynist, is empowered to command our military, veto bills, and nominate people to the Supreme Court, impacting life in the US for decades to come?
Trump exhorts his followers to attack protestors at his rallies (“The next time we see him, we might have to kill him,” a follower said after punching a black protestor at a rally.) Trump excuses his followers who attack a homeless Hispanic man on the street, claims that Mexican immigrants are rapists, refused to distance himself from the Ku Klux Klan, supports banning Muslims from entering the US, advocates killing the families of terrorists, and is openly sexist. Trump is the worst America has to offer.
How privileged do you need to be to imagine that it’s a good idea to risk the actual lives of vulnerable Americans because you “hate” Clinton so much that you vow to stay home if Sanders doesn’t get the nomination? How protected from the consequences of a Trump presidency do you need to be to think your hatred of Clinton constitutes, as I saw someone say earlier this week, an “inviolable principle,” meaning that it’s more important than the lives of vulnerable Americans? That all applies equally to any Clinton supporters saying the same about Sanders. (We have yet to see the full weight of American anti-Semitism aimed at Sanders, and if he wins the nomination, we most certainly will.)
Vote for whoever you like in the primary. But let’s step away from vicious attacks and hatred. Let’s step away from buying into debunked conservative propaganda about Clinton’s trustworthiness. Let’s look at the candidates’ actual proposals and weigh those proposals’ actual strengths and weaknesses. Let’s respect each other’s choices in the primaries.
And whoever becomes the Democratic nominee, the stakes are far, far too high for us to selfishly stay home because we didn’t get our first choice. I will happily, proudly vote for either Clinton or Sanders, and I hope you will do the right thing and join me.”
I don’t don’t hate Clinton or anyone… I just don’t imagine any of them have any ability to make me suffer or prosper. You have succumbed to the media hysteria which stokes conflict and hatred for fun and profit.
The assertion was that Clinton was a weak candidate. I tried to explain why that might be. I will vote because I am a citizen and it is the right thing to do. But I’m not going to pretend that Clinton is going to save us all from some other fate. She won’t.
The decisions made by our politicians do and have had the power to make others suffer or prosper. If you feel immune to that, godspeed. As a resident of Kansas, I’d just ask you to consider this example of the governance ideology either Republican candidate would bring to the White House if they won:
http://thinkprogress.org/education/2016/02/17/3750219/kansas-supreme-court-school-funding/
“Kansas Attorney General Derek Schmidt filed a notice to appeal the decision on Friday. Kansas Gov. Sam Brownback (R) said the decision was a violation of the court’s constitutional authority. Brownback has had a difficult relationship with the courts, as he has tried to take power from the judicial branch over his governorship. The governor has threatened to defund the entire judiciary system if it rules against him.”
Everyone suffers in one way or another when the public is poorly educated. Higher unemployment and crime rates, reduced ability to think critically and use proper civic education to understand as you do that voting is important- all this and more comes from intentionally poor education policy. This impacts your community and State, whether or not you choose to understand that.
These actions represent an outpost in an intense, protracted fight by conservatives and a deluded, dangerous rump of Democrats working with corporations to privatize the public school system, in order to extract profit and miseducate students.
Both of the top Repulican Presidential candidates would follow similar paths in their public education policies:
https:/www.tedcruz.org/five-for-freedom-summary
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-epa-education_us_56240035e4b02f6a900cc0e7
Thanks for considering.
Don’t worry your little head. Remember, that stuff is all just “media hysteria”.
“So strong is this propensity of mankind to fall into mutual animosities that where no substantial occasion presents itself, the most frivolous and fanciful distinctions have been sufficient to kindle their unfriendly passions and excite their most violent conflicts.”
Funding your State’s educational system so insufficiently that your own State Supreme Court has determined, in multiple rulings for over a year, that the funding levels are in violation of the State Constitution, and the Governor responds by threatening to completely defund the Judiciary and the Legislature responds by threatening to impeach the Supreme Court…
…these meet your definitions of “…frivilous and fanciful distinctions…”?
It’s unfortunate that you misunderstand the nature of the school funding debate in Kansas. It is a question of equity between districts rather than the overall level of funding. As it stands today, the legislature is working through the issue although I’m not convinced they have the right solution just yet.
In any event, the people of Kansas had a chance to vote these lunatics out of office not too long ago and took a pass. I did not vote for any of them.
Competing interests compete… It’s what they do. When the pain gets bad enough, perhaps the people will wake up to this inequity and make some changes. For the time being, though, most are content. It does seem like the Sanders and Trump candidacies are tapping into something and Clinton does not appear to be able to harness this diffuse and confused energy. That’s part of what makes her a weak candidate.
I only have one vote and my influence on others is zero. A few comments on an obscure blog are not going to change the fate of humanity. You and perhaps 2 or 3 others are even aware of what I’ve written here. So yeah… I’m going with “frivolous and fanciful distinctions” to describe this so-called debate.
Neil, what is going on right now in Kansas is extreme and aberrational. The Governor and Legislature are trying to eliminate the “competing interests” of the Judiciary and its defense of both your State Constitution and school districts attended by students with lower incomes.
Pretending that this is just another dispute, conducted in the same old ways, is just incorrect.
won your opponent’s argument for him/her?
QED?
No, actually. The open threats to defund the Kansas Judiciary and impeach judges who found the Legislature’s budget violated the State Constitution have taken place in the wake of the Kansas Supreme Court’s rulings in 2015 and 2016.
The voters did not have this information in hand when they re-elected Governor Brownback and Republican Legislative majorities in 2014. The Governor and Legislators did not campaign on these explicit threats to their Judiciary.
I’d concede that there were plenty of reasons for Kansas voters to reject Brownback in 2014, but that vote is not equivalent to their signing off on this.
Did you notice my comment replied to Neil, not to you (you being the “opponent” referenced)?
I can see a way to read your reply making sense either way, but I wonder.
My apologies, oaguabonita, I misunderstood- thought you were replying to me. I hope it was worthwhile to clarify the facts further, anyways.
Er, Arne Duncan?
Yeah, Obama took plenty of deserved heat for that Cabinet appointment; I’m disturbed by its implications as well.
Duncan is no longer in the Cabinet. The record of current Secretary of Education John King is not one I particularly like, either, so I give it to you on this one.
Doesn’t make the actions and ideologies by Republicans re. education policy the same, at all. See Texas, Kansas, etc.
If I may jump into this discussion here, I just want to point out that what you express is precisely what I’m seeing over a lot of the country right now, and the commenters responding to your post, don’t understand that; they do not understand the climate of despair. what you write, that’s what I’m seeing in a very widespread area. and it’s about what’s happened between 2008 and now, no real upturn, no real recovery for most people, no real turnaround. and dems want to sell a candidate who increased net worth and became a playah in that period? how does the fund raisers with hedge fund managers to ward of Sanders? I don’t think so
I understand it perfectly. I have thought all along that she was exactly the wrong candidate for this election year, and her struggles bear that out. That doesn’t change the fact that if she is the nominee, it will be critically important to help her get elected.
yes, of course, but let’s cross that bridge when we come to it
Exactly. And maybe this is the point that the Hillary supporters that are unhappy with the Bernie campaign don’t get:
Bernie is campaigning either to win, or to do as well as he can. He cannot and will not quit till it’s over, because his supporters deserve the opportunity to vote for him, and because he needs to wind up in as strong a position as possible even if he doesn’t win.
Certainly Hillary Clinton is preferable to any republican. Certainly I’ll vote for her if she’s the nominee, as will most other Bernie supporters. But there are a sizable number of Bernie that supporters that would be very disinclined to do so. I understand why, and I sympathize with them — but we need their votes. Bernie knows that. Does Hillary? Then she has to earn their votes. Bernie will do his part, but he can’t fo it unless Hillary cooperates.
A Hillary Clinton who takes Sanders and a strong Sanders contingent seriously, is going to be a lot better president.
And if Hillary supporters understand that, then I think we have a point of agreement. But if they really don’t, then God help us.
Kansas considering a bill that would give a bounty of $2500 to people who catch trans-gendered people using the wrong bathroom. Just like any other state…
https://t.co/Fkaeeg7afJ
If you really believe this, vote for Trump or Cruz.
Because fuck it, we have to burn the village down in order to save it.
No reason to burn anything down. That is a misreading of my commentary. There is also nothing that needs to be saved. This is all just hysteria.
So, nothing to save, and nothing to burn down.
Just let it continue rotting and crumbling down.
Nice.
That’s Clinton’s argument… everything is fine. We don’t need no revolution.
That’s your argument.
“So it really doesn’t matter who wins because it never actually matters.”
I’ve said this multiple times here and other places.
In order to actually change the government, there will need to be a physical revolution.
I, in fact, vote for the government that I think will be least effective and least brutal when that revolution comes.
Even if you think a revolution is necessary to fix things, not voting because your vote isn’t going to deliver unicorns and rainbows is still the wrong move.
A real revolutionary stacks the deck in their favor as much as possible before the revolution. Only the anarchist sits at home prepping molotov cocktails.
Neil has said repeatedly, including here, that he will be voting. Unfortunately, his views and rhetoric encourage others not to vote, or to investigate, or to mobilize. That’s a recipe for a future where everyone, Neil included, would be affected.
Pardon me, but I have to point and laugh at your statement.
I live in a state where the Democrats ran a weak candidate, and we wound up seeing children die in the public schools when the newlt elected GOP governor slashed education spending and refused to tax national gas extraction.
So yeah, politics doesn’t matter in out daily life. Pass me a bottle of Flint wster.
Kids died in public schools…. was that Chicago? And why didn’t all those democratic politicians in Michigan rebuild the water system in Flint? And why did Flint become so poor anyway? Could it be they lost a whole bunch of jobs when the auto industry moved to the South and to Mexico?
Look, there are plenty of good reasons to vote for democrats over republicans, but this sort of hysteria is really silly.
You have no idea what happened in Flint. The Democratic Mayor and City Council had their effective governance power taken away from them by a unilateral decision by Governor Snyder when he installed an Emergency Manager to override all decisions made by City officials. The Governor and his Legislature had passed this unbelievably dangerous Emergency Manager law in 2010, and after the voters repealed the law in a 2012 referendum, the Legislature re-installed an even more extreme version of the Law in their lame duck session; this law had an appropriation of State funds which made it immune to referendum repeal.
The Emergency Manager made the decision to change from Lake Huron water to Flint River water, which was corrosive to the lead pipes without treatment. Governor Snyder’s appointees in the agency which oversaw the safety of public water systems did not insist on that treatment. Thus, Michigan residents were poisoned by a series of decisions made by a set of people who were all Republicans or were given their appointments and supervision by Republicans.
It is rare that a major government fuckup does not have fingerprints of officials from each political party. This tragedy, however, essentially meets that description. Here’s the full report and a journalistic summary just completed this week by a taskforce installed by the Governor as part of his PR efforts:
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/snyder/FWATF_FINAL_REPORT_21March2016_517805_7.pdf
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/03/flint-task-force-rick-snyder-blame/475182/
Thanks again for considering this.
This guy’s a troll.
The idea that “Perhaps we should simply stop pretending any of this stuff actually matters in our lives as we actually live them” is laughable. Of course this stuff matters in our lives. Ignore “Neildsmith” or whatever it is.
Yeah.
And what will Bernie have to do to win over Clinton and her supporters when he’s the Democratic nominee?
Nothing, because by then we’ll all have our own unicorns, pissing apple juice and shitting manna. We’ll be set.
Sounds like madness.
No worries, the true madness will be here soon.
.
I think we should have a lottery to choose which “stan” Clinton bombs first.
If Clinton wins, a certain percentage of Sanders supporters won’t vote for her. If Sanders wins, what percentage of Clinton supporters won’t vote for him.
Which percentage do we suspect would be higher, and why?
Sanders will cut into the Trump consituency
Since Clinton supporters keep saying she’s just like Sanders, only more efficient, I suspect most will vote for him if they believe what they’re saying. When you get along the spectrum where Clinton and Kasich meet, a small sliver for sure, they may go to the Republican.
But a lot of otherwise Trump supporters, the vast independent constituency, will probably migrate to Sanders, especially if Cruz is the guy.
But she’ll need a friendlier Congress, including a Senate controlled by Chuck Schumer and a House that will be at least de facto controlled by Democrats and Republican appropriators. She does not want to see all the newly registered voters who are going for Sanders dropping out of the general because they only got into politics to support her primary opponent.
Does she really want that? I mean all one has to do is look at Rahmbo’s record at the DCCC. It still goes on today, in fact. The DCCC/DSCC hate primaries. They hate primary challenges from progressives most of all. Does Sanders challenge those at his rallies to stay involved and take over the party apparatus at the state and local level? He should.
You have nerve thinking she would be any worse than Obama is now- the Obama who was willing to give Boehner cuts in social security and medicare- thank God they too stupid to take it, who put Timmeh Geitner in charge of the bail out and ignored the hoeowners, and please don’t forget the TPP he will shove down our throat before he leaves.
Nothing. We will be there for him because we see the danger in electing one of those Republicans, even Kasich or Romney or Ryan, no less Trump or Cruz. Ugh! We can forgive him for being an Independent and not a Dem, for his vote on the crime bill back in ancient history, for being 74 going on 75. We will have his back when anti-Semitism and anti-socialism kicks up. Because we know the stakes.
Booman’s comment is great, and I’d like to see HRC start campaigning for primary votes again. Her turn towards the general was a bit too soon and unhelpful in my opinion.
However, I also think people are ignoring what could be one of Clinton’s strengths in the general and the longer game she may be playing. Yeah, it’s anecdotal, but I live in a middle-to-upper middle class enclave of California that leans rightward. That asshole Tom McClintock is my congressman. What I’m seeing is a lot of “moderate” business minded Republicans willing to vote for Hillary. My aunt and uncle, for example, said they are probably gonna vote for Hillary. All three of my neighbors–our kids play together–said the other night they are voting for Hillary. These are weak-leaning Romney voters that don’t like the look of the Republican Party and think things have, as one neighbor expressed it, “gotten out of hand.”
I know there are going to be some folks who wouldn’t welcome these voters., so impure are they. But, I feel like we have to recognize that the “system” we have isn’t a complete disaster for everybody. One of my potential HRC voting Republican neighbors, who is in business for himself, has Obamacare and he likes it! In fact, he makes it a point to note the world hasn’t blown up because he has it.
While many of us are pining for revolution, there are a lot of Americans interested in security and stability. If HRC wins with the help of these folks, and can move the goalposts leftwards as Obama has, maybe even more so with some good Supreme Court appointments, that’s not so bad.
I agree. The middle is not a bad place to be in an American elections. Many Republicans I know, most are like “Rockefeller Republicans,” have given up on their party. Whether they vote for a Dem (almost unimaginable) or stay home, doesn’t matter. Either favors a Dem.
LOL To DNCers, your folk would be an easier fit than any progressive.
I welcome their vote, but I highly doubt they’ll actually vote the way they’re saying.
Trust me, if they’re still identifying as a Republican in 2016, in California of all places, then they’re truly lost.
I.E. they’re just saving face in front of you. If I had to guess, they’re ready, willing and able to pull the lever for a lunatic like Cruz, or a Strongman like Trump.
Sorry, they are not stupid people, they are voters who see stability and security as a positive attribute. Seeing a successful Democratic governor run the state, or seeing that Obamacare hasn’t destroyed the world, are real positives that keep them open to voting Democrat. As much as we see Bill Clinton as the author of all that’s wrong with the world, a lot of folks see him as a decent President–my neighbors certainly remembered him that way when we were hanging out the other day.
Admittedly, if Kasich were ahead in the Republican poles, they would likely swing that way. But that’s not the case. My only point is that HRC’s not-so-strident less-than-revolutionary tone may not be helping her in the primary, but there could be a larger and longer game at work here if she turns out to be the nominee.
I never said they were stupid, and there’s no reason to apologize to me.
That said, you are talking about Californian Republicans. Their vote only counts, at most, for the House, assuming they live in a Republican district. Otherwise, they’re effectively silenced.
Well, I’d like to see my district go Democrat! That’s pretty meaningful to me. The more Dems in the House, the more Ryan needs them to help pass a budget, the better off we’ll all be.
Agreed.
I’d love to see your district go Democratic. Same with every district in the country.
It seems as if you have a good enough relationship that you can discuss politics with them.
If so, weave narratives and tell stories. This is how you convince a Republican to think about voting for the Democratic party.
The way I converted a former non-interested Republican-by-family Republican into a Sanders supporter was by weaning them off the Republican mind-sludge. Simply tell them, “the Democratic party isn’t perfect, it won’t solve all of our problems, and many of the politicians are in it for themselves. But…they aren’t batshit insane”.
It works. Slow and steady does it.
I don’t think a strident tone is much of a political asset in any case. I support Bernie because his message is important, but I don’t by any means think that he is the optimal messenger.
>>they are voters who see stability and security as a positive attribute
but above all else what they believe in is low taxes. And that all Democrats are too liberal.
I’m in CA too, I hear from the same kind of people you do.
KC,
It’s an interesting dynamic that you describe, and one that I am also seeing in SoCal (Daryl Issa is my wonderful rep!)
For the state to go so solid democratic means plenty of previous republican voters have switched sides, IMO because they find modern conservatism, California version, unpalatable. It would make sense that this trend might continue.
.
And right on cue!
http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2016/03/california-crazies.html
.
Dare we hope they go on vacation and don’t split the ticket or leave the top empty?
revolution…” precisely because we are “interested in security and stability.” We see no other way to get there.
Comments like this always leave me shaking my head over the (apparent) non-recognition of the direness of the straits we are in, which is what requires a revolution if we’re to save ourselves (and lots of completely innocent fellow-traveler species/ecosystems) from ourselves.
We just can’t see how merely “mov[ing] the goalposts leftward” and “not so bad” can possibly save us at this late hour.
If Sanders loses the nomination and Dems win the Senate, what happens with Sanders’ chairmanships, particularly the budget committee? Does Schumer threaten to take it away? Who holds the cards here?
Sanders is too powerful now for that to be an option for Schumer. He will have to reckon with the progressive caucus in the Senate, which now actually exists.
It didn’t exist eight years ago.
So he holds a lot of leverage here too, then, the campaign aside.
Ssh — you’re interrupting the goodwill of patronizing Sanders and his supporters.
This is why being ‘realistic’ and telling the truth about Sanders’ chances doesn’t just feel like an attack, but is one. I support Sanders (and the idea that you find him a ‘miserable choice’ baffles me; if his achievements and preferences aren’t better than ‘miserable,’ I have no clue what is good enough for you), but yeah, he doesn’t have a chance. He’s never had a chance. We’re not the Republicans; our party establishment is more than strong enough to ensure the victory of the status quo candidate.
That’s what worries you, right? That new and enthused voters will discover that the game is rigged, and will grow disillusioned. And your solution is to curb their enthusiasm, because that’s certainly a lot more practical than focusing on the whomever is doing the rigging. And I mean, even if Sanders won, he wouldn’t have the power to make all the hippy-dippy changes he proposes; all he could was continue to rail against the unfairness of the system, challenging the deep roots of inequity from the highest office. However, a wiser candidate would never mention the unfairness of the system brought him or her to power, instead simply working within the established bounds, bailing out the rising water while not rocking the boat. At least then, those passionately naive voters won’t get depressed, right? Right!
But the power of the Sanders campaign is the stupid idealistic revolutionary hope against an entrenched system. (They’re as bad as those silly girls struggling for women’s suffrage when the Votes Were Not There!) The stronger this campaign grow BEFORE IT LOSES, the better off we are as a country. So issuing Very Serious Decrees about the inevitable failure of the airy-fairy lefties, while no doubt extremely true and well-reasoned, are utterly counter-productive. Better to encourage them in their goofy quest, to help lay the groundwork for progressive changes in the future. Though acceptable to say nothing.
I’ve been gobsmacked by the bloggie left’s response to this primary. I don’t pretend that the blogs have any power. But it just seems utterly clear to me that anyone on the left-of-center spectrum, even someone who wants Clinton to win (as you certainly seem to), should support Sanders. Because that’s the practical, utilitarian, realistic thing to do. Clinton’s gonna win anyway (and I can say that just because I’m a nobody commenter), so why not do everything possible to move the party leftward during the race? Are there leftbloggers who look at Clinton and think, ‘I love her, but I wish she were just a bit more conservative?’
tl;dr
Support Sanders’s campaign if you want a more progressive caucus. Oppose (or pooh-pooh) his campaign if you don’t.
And you’ve been pooh-poohing.
BooMan has explained his very specific views very well, over and over again. He supports neither candidate; he has explained why in multiple posts and comments this weekend. He shares your view that the Sanders campaign is an important vehicle we can use to force the conversation, the Democratic Party, and Clinton’s campaign and Administration, leftward.
Why are you sailing away with these speculations which act as accusations of his sentiments and motivations? If you respect the host of the blog at all, it’s very odd to disengage from any direct discussion with his real views, which he has generously shared through the recent comments threads, and choose to set afire your strawman over here instead.
Evidentially, because he’s free to say whatever he wants to because he’s a ‘nobody commenter’ but I have to say only what he thinks I should say because I have the responsibility to lie.
Or to keep silent, yes.
But he’s just saying what I said yesterday, so just when I thought I was starting to understand you, it turns out I wasn’t.
Let me see now. You really like Sanders, but you don’t actually support him, because he’s a miserable choice. That’s OK, though, because Hillary’s a miserable choice as well. So there’s no reason to take sides.
Anyway, we already know Hillary’s going to win. You’ve been telling us since 2014 that, come what may, Hillary was going to be the nominee, even though at that time nobody was even running against her. IIRC, you couldn’t even imagine anybody that COULD run against her. I do remember that, because here we were getting the “Hillary is inevitable” thing, and the campaign hadn’t even started.
And by golly, you were right. She really was inevitable.
Anyway, Sanders now throws his hat in the ring. What the …? an elderly socialist Jew from Brooklyn, etc. Who the hell’s going to vote for him? But that’s OK, because he knows he’s not going to win anyway. He just wants to lead a movement or something. Turns out, a lot of people do vote for him, he’s doing much better than expected, just not well enough to win. Of course nobody else could have won either, since Hillary, after all, was inevitable. But presumably some of them wouldn’t have been as miserable choices.
But you don’t support him and you certainly don’t want to encourage others to support him, because they might think he can actually win, and he can’t, so they would only be disappointed. But that’s OK, because the point isn’t to win, anyway, it’s that the Sanders movement should have maximum leverage for the convention.
Now in order for Sanders to have maximum leverage, he needs to get as many delegates as possible. But for that to happen, people would have to be encouraged to vote for him. And that would be wrong, because it would only get their hopes up, and to do that, you would have to lie.
Good summation. Start with the desired end result and manipulate each step in the process to get it. The manipulation includes dismissing/denying any contrary and conflicting information.
I don’t know. It’s probably a lot simpler than that. It’s probably more like, the minute Booman was convinced of Hillary’s true inevitability, which was a long time ago, there wasn’t really much more to say as far as he was concerned. A forgone conclusion is a forgone conclusion.
It’s just that I expect a different dynamic from a political blogger.
But if you think of it, even somebody as admirable and as powerful as Elizabeth Warren has taken a similar approach. So has Diane Ravitch. So have large numbers of influential Democrats who really do like Sanders, but figure at the end of the day they’re going to have to work with Hillary, and do not want to be responsible for starting a civil war within the party.
The difference is that Warren, Ravitch, et al. are not running a blog where they are supposed to comment on political events and developments day by day, and be engaged in sometimes fractious debates with their readers. So they can get by with a few cryptic statements and subtle signals, if that.
The difference between the Democrats and Republicans is that the Republicans don’t have people like Warren. Or like Obama, who memorably said to Geithner, Summers et al., “My administration is the only thing between you and the pitchforks.” Oh, they had Boner, but he’s history.
Aside from the fact that it was true, the reason Obama said that to the bankers was for leverage, and to some extent it probably worked.
Sanders himself, if you can see it in that perspective, is also such a person, maybe more so than anyone. It may be Hillary’s administration, but Sanders and his wing of the party would still be the only thing holding back the pitchforks. But if Hillary doesn’t care, they won’t be able to hold back them back much longer.
Personally, I think Martin is way too invested in writing “told ya.” Even when his “prediction” left enough wiggle room in it to drive a truck through or he’s premature with the “told ya.”
I liken it to 2000 when I “knew” that if elected (didn’t foresee ‘if selected’) GWB would have us back in another war in Iraq. For me that was a horrible prospect and all on its own was enough reason for me to vote for Gore — and I persuaded nobody with the argument. Once he was in office, I didn’t let up on him for a moment. Didn’t praise his post-9/11 acts or rallying around him (I opposed military action in Afghanistan for a simple reason that he and Cheney are screw-ups, but if needed would have delved deeper into all the other reasons why it wasn’t a good idea.) And I argued against that war from when he first publicly raised the prospect after 9/11. Back when people like Kos were saying that it hadn’t and wouldn’t ever be on the table. I praised those that opposed the war instead of denigrating and dismissing them as wild-eyed people that aren’t accepting the reality that a war with Iraq was “predicted.” “Yadda yadda, told ya” shouldn’t be a point of pride, but a recognition of having failed to thwart an unacceptable or untenable prospect unless one really wanted the prediction to come true and also did and said nothing to move an outcome in that direction.
“At least then, those passionately naive voters won’t get depressed, right? Right!”
In fact, they wouldn’t even be voters.
I totally agree with your comment, and I admire the way you’ve laid it out so clearly.
Sadly, it’s my belief that Hillary Clinton is pretty much a one trick pony- most likely she will start running right as soon as it’s clear that she is the nominee. It’s what the Clintons know how to do… It will be aipac Hillary on foreign policy, wallmart Hillary on minimum wage, and wall street Hillary on financial regulation. The bus runs over BLM and meaningful gun regulation. She will be silent on TPP as they try to pass it in the lame duck, if it doesn’t get voted on then she will flip her position after the election and try to push it through.
I also really doubt that she would select a progressive as her VP choice- more likely a wall street compromised candidate that will help fund raise as the optics of her begging them for more money won’t be good. The whole general election strategy will be about raising as much money as possible from the usual suspects to fund a negative media campaign on the Republican candidate.
As much as I would hope otherwise, I wouldn’t expect anything else besides the standard “Who are you going to vote for, that crazy guy?” response towards Bernie supporters from her.
I believe she needs all the votes she can get. If she thinks she can immediately trash Sanders and his followers, he will have to explain to her that they will stay home in droves on election day, or write him in, NOT because he wants them to, but because he won’t be able to prevent it.
Not only that, but she will have fomented a civil war within the Democratic Party. Nice way to start off her term.
I don’t think she realizes this yet, but I trust Bernie can explain to her the facts of life.
And this is what Booman’s saying. Under the circumstances, it’s in her political interest to be nice to him and his supporters. Needless to saym that will lso be the best thing for the country.
How many carts should we put before the horse?
What’s clear is that Clinton will have to deal with very widespread disappointment within her own base when she becomes the nominee.
Why would that be? HRC’s base (excluding Wall St, corporations, and the glitzy set) isn’t asking for anything other than a woman and/or a Clinton to be the next POTUS. The only thing that would disappoint them is if she fails to win in November and they won’t be nice about such a loss, but even in such an event, most won’t blame HRC.
The only “new” voters that Hillary seems to be recruiting are neocons and former-Republican elites, by anecdote. Will they show up in November. Will she be dancing with who brung her?
She’s way down from the number of voters that showed up for her in ’08. Difficult to piece that together ’08 became messy in the sense that many voted for her in response to her campaign stopping the black man.
Clearest evidence is from MA for several reasons. Both ’08 and ’16 were competitive at the time of the primary. MA voters aren’t as amendable to “vote for me because I’m white” as say Texas. Low AA population. It has a highly educated and higher income population than may states. And the ’08 and ’16 turnouts are similar. She beat Obama with 58% of the vote. She lost a hundred thousand voters in ’16. Whether they stayed home or switched to Sanders is unknown, but either way that suggests a huge weakness.
You can always connect two points on a graph and claim a trend. The thing is, you have no idea if it’s signal or noise. Aren’t there complicating factors? Doesn’t Massachusetts allow people to vote in either party’s primary, say?
Maybe you’re right, maybe you’re not. I just don’t think your methodology is sound.
“You Hillary supporters are all just shallow idiots who only care that she’s a woman. Please vote for my preferred candidate.”
If your point is her campaign should have spent dollar for dollar in every state to be “strong”, it’s just a tad late to try and bait her into a repeat of 2008. They have the results they need for the nomination.
If your point is Sanders should strike his deal now after having his best run of results, and before his campaign goes cold – yes, he probably should.
His campaign is not going to go cold, because he’s leading a movement. He will continue to gain delegates to the end. We just don’t know how many. It’s not like he’s going to lose delegates.
Yes, the behavior of the Clinton campaign does resemble its behavior 8 years ago — prematurely seeking to clear the field, not seeing Congress and alliances for spreading the map as a priority, and tilting to the center (disastrously in South Carolina).
Sanders’s getting substantial delegates out of Pennsylvania and New York prevents Clinton from having a free hand in how she shapes the constituency she wants to appeal to so as to satisfy her financial backers. Clinton frustrating a Sanders victory (the likely outcome) will only intensify her current campaign posture of trying to avoid making mistakes.
What is irritating to the folks who claim they will vote only for Bernie is the politician’s attitude that their views do not count–just their marks on a piece of paper or activation of a mechanical or electronic mark. That is what telling voters to be “realistic” really means–always capitulating to the mediocre (to cite Roman Hrushka’s dream of American government).
The Congress is the main game this year. What infuriates so many Democratic voters is how much the campaign committees gave away at the filing dates. Whipping people to vote in the general election will not have the passion that a strong candidate for Congress would bring. And in North Carolina, because of a lazy judge we do not yet know who we have as choices, even if we had heard of them before. That is 13 seats with only four being defended. Would that there were more attention to Congress all along.
It is not the failure to elect Clinton that will be a catastrophe for the country. It is the failure to elect a more progressive Democratic Congress.
Anyway, guilt-tripping voters is a bad practice. All voters deserve a choice between at least two candidates for their party. All parties should have equal access to the ballot as long as there are two major parties or parties at all. All voters deserve policy package choices in the general election and the ability to state a mandate. Guilt-tripping voters who are pissed off about the current political situation makes them even more pissed off. Elections are supposed to be how the little guy gets access to politicians that they cannot afford to buy outright. When the elections themselves are bought, democracy becomes an absolute sham not a corrective on a republican oligarchy.
As a Sanders supporter, it’s in my interest to see persuasive arguments move forth which persuade Clinton supporters to switch to Bernie. At this late point in the primary battle, entering successful arguments which achieve those voter switches are necessary to gain Sanders the nomination or, lacking that, an increase in the number of delegates Sanders takes to the convention. He is absolutely right in fighting on to gather the greatest possible number of pledged and superdelegates.
Unfortunately, the comments threads here have degenerated into a unilateral exercise in polarization, with Bernie supporters and Hillary/Obama/DWS/DNC haters entering the wildest claims, many of them ad hominem. My favorite of this weekend is the commenter who asserted they had no need to consider Clinton’s record or campaign because she lacks credibility.
Well, what is a reader supposed to do with that? And do you think a Clinton supporter, or a reader who is on the fence, is likely to be persuaded by such nonsense? Think about the frequent and occasional commenters here. The strong majority are pro-Sanders, particularly those who post most frequently.
Can we think of a single commenter who appeared to be a Clinton supporter who has become a Sanders supporter through the months of shenanigans here? None come to mind for me. People have just pitched their very personal tents, and again, they’re unilateral.
BooMan’s rather mild critiques of Sanders this weekend are the sharpest Bernie critiques I have witnessed here in a while. Meanwhile, every thread is full of heinous Hillary attacks, some of them in whole or in essence ad hominum, and others distorting the facts so severely that restoring the record becomes challenging, particularly in light of the extremely harsh and personal attacks often leveled in response.
You lay claim that the Democratic Campaign Committees have engaged in actions up to the filing deadlines which you believe will suppress turnout and cause the Party to perform more poorly than it should in November. I have seen zero substantiation from you re. this; which races are you talking about? Are they nationwide? Are your opinions about candidate recruitment and support undebateable?
It’s also hard to understand the motivations the chiefs of the Committees would have to intentionally recruit and fundraise for bad candidates. I’m ready to hear the claims, but without their specific filings, this complaint comes off as more ad hominum attacking to me.
I don’t think you ought to be so sensitive or take it so personally. We’ve been told by just about everyone, certainly including Booman, from day one and before, that Bernie cannot win the primary as everybody keeps saying, especially Booman. Well, prove it. What else would you expect when we’re still in the middle of the primary? That’s how the system works.
WHat I noticed her and elsewhere is that a lot of Hillary supporters weren’t criticizing Sanders BECAUSE THEY LIKE HIM. Some of them even contribute to his campaign. They just don’t think he can win.
I hear you; I’ll take that suggestion in.
I have tried to be understanding that we are still in the middle of a well-contested primary; I agree that it works against good faith to campaign while being told “you have no chance,” when what is real is that Sanders has almost no chance to gain the nomination but has a great chance to leverage changes in the Party, Hillary’s campaign and her Administration.
If Frog Ponders were identifying that as their agitation with BooMan’s reality checks, I might be joining them from time to time. When Bernie has been asked in interviews recently “Hillary’s looking like she has the nomination, when will you drop out and endorse?” I get angry.
It’s the super hostile, cracked frame demagoguery of Hillary that is difficult to countenance. Not just because I can vote for Bernie while not despising Hillary, but because people are writing things here that are hard to take back, and they’re writing these things about the candidate who is almost certainly going to carry the banner of our movement. There are multiple reasons that it would be a good idea to show more perspective in our conversations right now.
For those who dislike and mistrust Hillary, the best reason to dial back the hostility is that it is singularly ineffective as a persuasion strategy. They can make themselves feel better with these face-melting posts, but they’re wasting time that could be spent in more effective ways to help Bernie win.
I’m pretty happy with this outcome, as long as the concessions that you predict are forthcoming.
In 2008, the most committed of Democratic activists- those that do the caucuses- turned their backs on Hillary Clinton with a vengeance.
In 2016, we see a repeat of the same.
It too her crying in 2008 for her to win New Hampshire.
Yeah yeah…. Bernie’s from a neighboring state…yadda yadda yadda..
But, the two places with a whole lot of retail politics – Iowa and New Hampshire, were like, NO to Hillary..
Don’t give me that bullshyt that she won Iowa in 2016. When folks are flipping coins to decide races…you didn’t win.
And, if Harry Reid hadn’t of interfered in Nevada, she woulda lost there too.
Everything that makes Hillary unappealing as a candidate in 2016, was present in 2008….
Which is why so many in the DNC ‘ proper’ tried to set up a Coronation, but wanted to be too cute by half, which is why they ‘allowed’ Bernie in.
That he has become the vessel for those who saw the flaws in Hillary in 2008; never saw any repentance from her in the 8 years for her behavior in 2008….and still think she sucks in 2016- well, the incompetent DWS should get fired for that too.
Also, shame on those Democrats who got spooked by the Clinton machine, when it’s obvious that a candidate that came out fully supporting the President going after the Obama Coalition with both hands would have handed Hillary her lunch.
Barack Obama showed you the way to put Hillary down and leave her in the dust…but, no…..you couldn’t follow the ways of the Black Man…cause you knew better.
Whatever.
We have Hillary – BY DEFAULT.
Not because she was the best candidate.
S’cuse me but wasn’t Obama supposed to be the revolution? Where were all those “committed” Obama voters when they were needed in the midterms so that we didn’t lose the Senate and lose ground in the house? Gee not there as I recall. There seems to have been a realization amongst his followers that Obama is not a progressive- duh you could have seen that had you bothered to look.
And Hillary certainly did as well as Bernie is in the primary in 2008- in fact they (that horrible DNC you rail against) had to actually stop the roll call vote so she would not be an embarrassment to Obama because the real delegate vote was so close. They were rightly worried that Hillary supporters would defect.
Yeah the repugs have done a lot of damage to her reputation because people don’t bother to learn the facts. And yet she still leads Bernie in real delegates.
I will vote for whoever wins but Hillary will be a better president than Bernie- hands down.
Well, when I posed this elsewhere I was told it’s because the enthusiastic young Obama voters didn’t see s dime’s worth of difference between the parties when it comes to issues of concern to them (as opposed to issues of concern to baby boomers like yours truly).
Of course, by failing to turn out in the midterm elections, those young voters got GOP seizure of control of a bunch of state governments, which have pursued policies such as disinvesting in education and passage of socially regressive legislation (attacks on reproductive freedom, say).
SO…it would seem to be a no-brainer that those young voters would look at objective reality and say to themselves, hm, perhaps there is a dime’s worth of difference between the parties after all.
But no, at least for a certain sort of commenter. For those folks, the position they want to advance is that absent a certain leftist seeking the Democratic presidential nomination, there’s not a dime’s worth of difference between the Ds and Rs. The voting preferences and behaviors of millenials may only be interpreted to advance that thesis. No other interpretations are allowable.
Taibbi’s claim in his recent essay that he is channeling the complete views of all young voters who are supporting Sanders, all while failing to quote or name any of those young people, is part of this amusing conceit.
Presuming that a young Sanders supporter would not support a Clinton general election candidacy against the sexist, racist sociopath the GOP is about to nominate is presuming facts not in evidence. It seems very unlikely to me, actually. Clinton needs to work on her pitch to younger voters; I just don’t see how they would cost her the general election.
Her pitch. Yeah, a better sales hook.
How about a massive, well-paying jobs program for the un- and underemployed? How about taking some of the wealth that the top tier has scooped up over the past 25 years and redirecting it to the people down here?
We know to follow the money. It goes from Goldman Sachs into Clinton’s kitty. In turn she becomes their benefactor, keeping the townspeople with pitchforks outside the gates.
She already talks a good game. She doesn’t and won’t deliver.
OK, this is getting hostile now.
Bob, everyone has a campaign pitch, Sanders included.
I’ve noticed this thing happening with some commenters where they assert any and all campaign strategies and persuasion attempts by Clinton, her campaign or her supporters are low, cynical, unethical, etc. while all Sanders campaign strategies are authentic and completely truthful.
I’m going to vote for Sanders, and I know these claims are untrue, on both sides. The absolutism of these claimants is becoming revolting in its lack of self-awareness.
And again, you’re completely unwilling to engage Hillary’s campaign, which has a number of redistributive policy planks. It’s infuriating.
Bob, what do you do with the fact that Bernie voted for the 1994 crime bill? Because, you know, I understand his vote. But he should be accountable to it if commenters are going to make Hillary, who was the First Lady and had no vote on the bill, accountable to her husband’s signing of that bill into law.
In fact, he should be more accountable than Hillary. Yet not one Sanders supporter here has even acknowledged Bernie’s vote and grappled with it.
Again, as we know how the sausage is made in Congress, there are bills tied to bills, there are parts of bills that are good, parts that are bad. It was chutzpah for Clinton to blame Wall Street deregulation on Sanders, but at the end of a ninety-second chunk of debate time it’s easy to drop something like that.
As far as redistributive sections of Clinton’s platform, I don’t believe it. I don’t believe the Democratic Party anymore and I’ve been a Democrat all my life. I was a union officer during the Clinton Administration and I saw the retreat then. The same with Obama. The party no longer represents most people. They represent the people who want charter schools, not the people who want to improve public schools.
I find a certain class of Clinton supporters to be unaware of the great monetary separation of the rich and the rest. The gap keeps expanding, and someone who accepts hundreds of millions from the rich to do their bidding cannot walk the tightrope when the people who have the money want more and not less. In a real sense they are all frauds, except a lot of them don’t even realize it.
I know that it’s impractical or unrealistic to expect Sanders, if he wins and nomination and is elected getting anything much done in the first two years. He probably has as many philosophical enemies in the Democratic Party as he does in the Republican Party.
Having lived through the sixties, I know that politics is a blood sport, and sometimes I worry about Sanders being taken out. But this is the end of the road for the Democratic Party, maybe the end of the road for democracy. From where I squat it wasn’t all that great, but it was an education.
As far as who is more of a truth-teller, there is no doubt. The same people in the press who tally pants on fires are the same people who decided that Sanders’ sweep last night wasn’t really the big news today. Or any day.
The game is really fixed, and it’s amazing how far Sanders has gone under the circumstances.
Okay, maybe when Chelsea delivered a half million to the mayor of Flint it wasn’t a bribe for her endorsement of Hillary. But that’s the way the system works now. I don’t much believe in coincidences anymore. I used to be a proud Democrat. Sometimes, these days, I just can’t cheer.
The problem is not that there isn’t a dime’s worth of difference. There IS a dime’s worth of difference, damn it.
The problem is that the difference needs to be a lot more than a dime.
The desertion in the 2010 midterms were among the conservative Democrats. Losses were heavily in Blue Dog areas.
The losses in Wisconsin were due to the heavy and unexpected insertion of the Koch brothers Americans for Prosperity into state politics; they also surprised voters with their insertion into the Wake County NC school board election the same year.
The 2014 election was as much GOP bounceback from the 2012 loss, much like the 2006 election in reverse.
Now I understand better why Hillary was so “inevitable” in 2014, when there was NOBODY on the horizon.
Bernie had the guts. But he’s so flawed. Pity. Where were all those flawless candidates?
The problem with trying to make nice with Sanders is theres no reason to trust Clinton will keep any progressive promises. The only way to build that trust is for her to go out there and actually appoint more progressive peoples and submit more progressive policies. But you cant show that until after the election.
Do the US use “shadow cabinet” where you know who in the incoming team will fill what role or is everything except VP filled after the election is over and done with? In the second case I can see that (except for VP) she can not appoint before the election.
Can she make it clear who she will appoint or does that break to much with tradition?
It breaks with tradition and also ends the competition with the campaign for positions.
No, we don’t. But it might be considered presumptive in the party primary. Yes, in the general, I have seen that sort of thing.
In addition to what the posters below mention, there is a rule that you cant promise positions for votes (patronage). I am fairly confident that use of a shadow cabinet (which I support!) would not be a violation but the other guys might try to make something out of it and the elites lose their minds whenever there is a chance at a Clinton scandal.
Another problem is that cabinet appointees need to be confirmed by the senate and if the GOP remains in control progressive shadow nominees might simply be refused confirmation hearings as the battle over the SCOTUS chair shows. This usually hasnt happened often but the GOP has discovered unwritten rules are not in fact rules. Anyway, to get back ro the point it might be helpful but its new ground. Difficult to say how it would shake out.
This has been an edition of “why I think parliamentary systems are superior.”
No, you can’t trust her. You can only try to make her see that it’s to her advantage. It’s definitely to the advantage of the party, but when did she ever care about that? She’s more interested in Goldman Sachs.
As someone pointed out up-thread, Clinton had the hubris to pivot to a campaign against Donald Trump a couple of weeks ago instead of focusing on actually securing the Democratic nomination in a convincing fashion. No doubt her advisers were telling her that no effing way could Sanders catch up in the delegate count, and that by going after Trump, she’d look all grown up and presidential.
Well, Jeez Louise, my friends across the Columbia River in Washington state had the eternal gall to go to caucuses yesterday and show their support for Sanders instead of following the Clinton campaign’s script.
I still think Hillary Clinton is a smart, accomplished woman who’d make a good president, but my gawd is she a tone-deaf politician surrounded by the equally tone-deaf, including her spouse. The guy who supposedly connected with voters, who “felt their pain,” has been living the penthouse life for so long that he’s completely clueless.
I hope the states that went big for Sanders can translate that into their general political life. That requires activism on the state and local level from here on.
I think her pivoting was part of their inevitability argument, but imo it backfired. i.e. it combines the inevitability and Trump is awful talking points
At another blog I keep asking the regulars if they even understand why someone would support Sanders over Clinton. I’ve asked this question a number of times in a number of ways. Some of the posters there also post here.
They seem unable to see why. Absolutely incapable. I suspect that many of them are the subject of Thomas Frank’s new book, LISTEN, LIBERAL. They are professional, socially liberal. They are against racial discrimination, most are accepting of sexual minorities, support women’s rights in all areas. But they don’t seem to have a problem that for the bottom 80% of Americans the last twenty-five years have really, really sucked economically. That blacks voted for Clinton in the Deep South is proof enough that her policies aren’t classist under the veneer, not that Democratic voting-getting is better organized and more conformist than what’s been happening elsewhere.
It is amazing, really. There’s a column by Barbra Streisand in the Huffington Post today wherein the celebrity complains, again, about people not liking Hillary because she’s a woman. They just don’t get it. I’m sure Clinton’s court doesn’t get it either. When threatened they put on Obama as a cloak. “He got us healthcare.” And, it’s true, some people actually did get healthcare. But people are still going bankrupt. Still not buying prescriptions because they can’t afford them. There are people who must move ahead of the wave of gentrification because they cannot afford to live in their homes anymore.
I would have a little more faith in this country if these people could at least understand what is going on with the bottom 80% of this country. But they don’t.
Just had to say this. I think this is the end of the road for the Democratic Party. It doesn’t represent the people anymore.
You asked a very good question. I was ready to chime in, finally, after all these weeks.
And then you answered it with your last sentence.
.
So are you predicting that the Republicans are going to retain the Senate and win the White House?
Or is a HRC victory and control of the Senate just a Pyrrhic victory?
The Democratic party will continue to exist as long as the Republican party exists. It will not transition to something better until the Republican party ceases to exist.
I’m looking beyond this election. The scam can’t go on forever. The Democratic Party is no longer the party of the people. I should have known that when Obama got more Wall Street money than McCain. It wasn’t about competence. It was about who serves whom.
Think about it. Record profits and yet most people aren’t making more than they did twenty years ago.
What happens this election, unless Sanders pulls this out, will be a further erosion of what used to be called the middle class and whatever new name they come up with for the poor. Clinton won’t solve the major problems. We can already guess where the next wars will be. If it’s Trump, he’ll be instructed on his limitations. If it’s Cruz or Ryan, we’ll have the same wars.
The scam can’t go on forever.
And, Bob, please tell me again how Bernie is going to right the wrongs of the last 30-40 years? What’s the plan for resolving income inequality? And just exactly how is that going to get done? Someone upthread who does not seem to be from the United States asked about a shadow cabinet so you could have an idea just who would be running which departments in the administration of a particular candidate. Do you have any idea who Bernie would appoint?
Okay, it’s not going to get done. By anyone. Our country is going to sink into a fixed oligarchy with differences in wealth we still are unable to imagine. Cops will still kill young black men, but because large sections of whites will descend into poverty we can expect more white faces to be exterminated. Equal opportunity.
It will be a glorious time on the lido deck, though.
There, happy?
Now tell us how someone who’s seen close to three billion in rich people’s money accrue in her fiefdom over the past fifteen years make it all go away.
No, if you’ve got a decent job with a little prestige, then you enjoy it. Just don’t look over your shoulder.
“If you think of the country as in decline, as most people do, and you think the cause is the predatory behavior of the big-money elites, as most people do, then you must know you have only two choices — acceptance and resistance.
[…]
But that’s a negative goal, and there’s more. They not only have to stave off your resistance. They have to manage your acceptance of their managed decline in the nation’s wealth and good fortune.”
Such a good essay…http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2016/03/gaius-publius-the-goal-of-the-neo-liberal-consensus-is-to-man
age-the-decline.html
Wages have been stagnating since the early 70s.
It became a permanent fixture of the US economy once tax cuts + Wall St. deregulation + Free Trade became the operating system of the economy.
I never thought Obama would be able to outright reverse it. But he stopped the bleeding.
I guess, ultimately, you’re either a “let’s stop the bleeding” type of liberal, or a “let’s go run the 100m and win a gold” type of liberal.
I’m OK with stopping the bleed, because given the demographics, the Republican party is almost irrelevant as a national party. Since 2011 when Occupy made income inequality a household notion, people have been moving left economically, as well as socially. I mean, Trump is just another oligarch, but he’s pretending to be a populist on a lot of economic issues.
I don’t think a Trump, Cruz, Kasich, or “X” Republican will speed up the transition to a more socialist system, but I do think that the end of the Republican party will, as the white working class will have to finally choose between economics or more tribal identity. And I see them moving towards economic socialism.
I mean, shit, I hope that the Democratic party is replaced. Right after the Republican party becomes a regional party. It’s then that left-leaning people can begin to form a party around actual leftist policy, and not a minute before.
Sanders is essentially a preview. A cultural change like the one we’re about to see takes awhile. But just take a look back at movies, for example. Hunger Games and the other clone trilogies that are still filming/releasing.
Cultural shifts pile up onto themselves before they spill over and wash away the preceding culture.
agree.
I agree.
Clinton’s weakness is a concern because James Comey’s impartiality is a concern. Why does it take 147 FBI agents to determine whether a crime has been committed?
Might not those resources be better deployed to find out if there is any criminality going on in the financial industry? Just starting with Jamie Dimon, for example.
I’m not concerned about Clinton’s “weakness” because in 2008 Clinton won primaries all the way through to the end of the primary season.
It didn’t her Obama, and it won’t hurt Clinton.
You’re right, that won’t hurt Clinton, but she’s already hurting without that. Take a gander at this :
http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/hillary-clinton-favorable-rating
This quote/phrase seems appropriate for this primary ….
“I am not bound to win, but I am bound to be true. I am not bound to succeed, but I am bound to live by the light that I have. I must stand with anybody that stands right, and stand with him while he is right, and part with him when he goes wrong.” Abraham Lincoln
Yes. And that’s why he was a great president.
favorable ratings have been the same since the beginning of the campaign – it’s mostly due to extremely low ratings among Republicans.
The last poll I saw on Democratic favorabilities was that Sanders was at 69 and Clinton 65, not that much of a difference.
The national favorables/unfavorables show that, for whatever reasons, Hillary Clinton is an extremely polarizing candidate.
The favorability among democrats is indeed close, much closer than is reflected in the respective number of delegates each has won so far.
What’s really important nationally is independents. I believe they are much more for Sanders than Clinton, but I can’t find the figures.
March 2, CNN national poll:
“Sanders holds the most positive favorability rating of any of the top candidates for president: 60% of registered voters view him positively, 33% negatively. He is the only candidate seen favorably by a majority of voters, and one of four who are seen more positively than negatively.”
http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/01/politics/donald-trump-hillary-clinton-bernie-sanders-poll/
Here’s something I was not aware of. It’s always possible this is an outlier, but according to CNN, Sanders’s favorability has gone down a lot over the past few weeks:
March 25, CNN national
“Sanders notches the highest overall favorability among registered voters, with 48% viewing him positively vs. 45% unfavorably. That’s a steep drop since last month, when 60% of registered voters overall had a positive take on the Vermont senator. Sanders has seen his ratings slip among registered Democrats and Republicans during that time, and independents’ impressions of him are now evenly divided.”
http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/24/politics/hillary-clinton-donald-trump-cnn-poll-2016-election/
Sorry, I wrote “I believe they [independents] are much more for Sanders than for Hillary, but I can’t find the figures.”
I should have deleted that, because after I wrote it I did find a very recent CNN poll (as quoted and linked above) indicating that independents are about evenly divided.
Still that’s just one poll, and it may be an outlier.
I’m just guessing, but if there really has been a sharp drop in Sanders’s favorability over the last few weeks, is that where it mainly occurred — among independents?
it depends how each poll defines independents which seems to be different in every poll
Can we start looking at down-ticket races?
David Dayen, The New Republic:Will Big Money Republicans Break the Democratic Wave?
How many more state houses go solid red?
The posts and discussions of the last few days have certainly opened up some new lines of thought.
So what I’m thinking is this. If Clinton is the nominee, she would be wise to treat Sanders, and other leaders like Warren, Reich, Tulsi Gabbard, with respect. If not, I predict the same trajectory for the Democratic Party, as is now happening with the Republicans.
In fact, that’s already happening, just in a slower and more civilized way. It would be very wrong to blame this on Bernie or his supporters. It’s much bigger than that.
Look at this graph:
http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/hillary-clinton-favorable-rating
Then consider the fact that this trend in public perception has been going on steadily since the middle of 2012, long before this campaign started or before Bernie came into it. Consider also that Sanders has been about as civil to Hillary as it is possible for a genuine opponent to be. He has not been trash-talking her as in the GOP trash-fest. He’s the one who said “enough with the damn e-mails.”
So let’s step back from the particular personalities for a moment, except to note what nobody can deny, which is that Hillary represents the Democratic Party establishment and, as much as any Democrat, the whole MIC financial establishment; while Sanders represents the opposite. Well, the same trend is happening in the Democratic Party as in the GOP, and for the same reasons. It’s just been going at a little gentler pace with us Dems. All the rest is details.
With Hillary’s notorious tin ear and her particular Rolodex, I’m not optimistic. But if she doesn’t seriously work to try to to tone down the festival of war and greed that this country has been turned into, things are just going to get worse and worse. This is the real challenge that the next president will have to face, and the question everybody should be asking is, which candidate can meet that challenge better.
Optimistic is not a word I can use when thinking or speaking about Hillary. There is only one candidate that can be counted on to “Seriously work to try to tone down the festival of war and greed this country has turned into.” That candidate will never be Hillary. She is too much of a war hawk and has made too much money from and has way too many cozy connections to the financial establishment. If she said this is what she was going to do everyday from now until the general election, I would not believe her. Period. She will pivot to the right hard & fast if she gets the nomination. She has triangulated & flipflopped(evolved?) too many times to be credible.
I agree, but the context I’m thinking about is where Sanders and Co., (because he’s not the only one) have some real leverage.
That’s how I read Booman’s idea too. It’s a hypothetical context in which her weakness is not only a concern to us, but becomes of concern to her.
That’s why I suggest she should pay some attention to what’s happening to the GOP. The establishment has literally lost control of the base. We Dems are not there yet, but we’re moving in the same direction.
good points.