Lani Guinier was right when she argued our electoral system is deeply flawed. Though we don’t have a Tyranny of the Majority so much in America, as a tyranny of two minority parties, who have blocked access to any attempt to wrestle away their hold on political power. But I’m getting ahead of myself. Who is this Lani Guinier person of whom you speak, Steven, and what, if anything does she have to do with the Clintons?
In 1993, Lani Guinier was already a distinguished Harvard Law Professor, and a well regarded civil rights attorney, when President Bill Clinton nominated her to be the first African American woman, and the “first practicing civil rights attorney” to head the US Justice Department’s Civil Rights division. Her nomination was a pretty big deal at the time. She would have been the chief lawyer for the federal government charged with enforcing civil rights laws “on employment, education, housing and voting.”
Guinier was also a close personal friend of Bill and Hillary Clinton, whom she met when they all attended Yale Law School together in the early seventies. In fact, both Bill and Hillary attended her small, very private wedding to her husband, Nolan Bowie. After graduation, she served as a law clerk for a prominent African American Court of Appeals Justice, then as the special assistant to the assistant Attorney General in charge of civil rights enforcement during the Carter administration. Later, she worked for the NAACP Defense Fund, losing only two of the many cases she brought and eventually rising to become the head of its Voting Rights project. She was a perfect choice to head up the Civil Rights Division of the Department of Justice.
However, on April 23, 1993, she was unfairly attacked by Clint Bolick, a former Reagan justice, in a deceitful op-ed hit piece in The Wall Street Journal, “Clinton’s Quota Queens,” because of law articles she had written that promoted proportional voting as a better electoral system for a democracy than our current winner take all system. In fact, Guinier was an opponent of racial quotas as a means to ameliorate past discrimination. The other lie spread about her, that she favored creating special districts to ensure African American representation in state legislatures and Congress, was also demonstrably false.
One of the most prominent themes of the attack on Guinier was her supposed support for electoral districts shaped to ensure a black majority – a process known as “race-conscious districting.” An entire op-ed in the New York Times — which appeared on the day her nomination was withdrawn (6/3/93) — was based on the premise that Guinier was in favor of “segregating black voters in black-majority districts.”
In reality, Guinier is the most prominent voice in the civil rights community challenging such districting. In sharp contrast to her media caricature as a racial isolationist, she has criticized race-conscious districting (Boston Review, 9-10/92) because it “isolates blacks from potential white allies” and “suppresses the potential development of issue-based campaigning and cross-racial coalitions.”
Another media tactic against Guinier was to dub her a “quota queen,” a phrase first used in a Wall Street Journal op-ed (4/30/93) by Clint Bolick, a Reagan-era Justice Department official. The racially loaded term combines the “welfare queen” stereotype with the dreaded “quota,” a buzzword that almost killed the 1991 Civil Rights Act.
The problem is that Guinier is an opponent of quotas to ensure representation of minorities. In an article in the Harvard Civil Rights-Civil Liberties Law Review (Spring/89), she stated that “the enforcement of this representational right does not require legislative set-asides, color-coded ballots, electoral quotas or ‘one black, two votes’ remedies.”
Nonetheless, Bill Clinton, rather than defend her, or allow her to defend herself, withdrew her nomination. Indeed, some very familiar liberal Democrats, including Senators Ted Kennedy and and Carol Moseley-Braun demanded Clinton place her head on the chopping block to appease not only Republicans but conservative Democrats.
Thus, that master of triangulation, the “Big Dog” himself, folded like a cheap lawn chair to the drumbeat of media and Republican pressure by withdrawing her nomination. However, instead of allowing her to gracefully bow out, Clinton made a point of blasting her for having anti-democratic views. He never gave her the chance, which she requested, to defend her views at a public hearing before the Senate. He discarded her as one would a worthless piece of trash.
Give me a shot at a hearing before the Senate Judiciary Committee, [Guinier] pleaded. Let me defend myself.
Can’t do it, [Clinton] said. Won’t do it. […]
And when they parted company, and she slid into the back seat of the limo that sped her away from the White House, she did not know her fate for certain. […]
After the 75-minute meeting had ended, Clinton called both Guinier and Attorney General Janet Reno to inform them that he was withdrawing her nomination …
In short in an act of political cowardice, he abandoned a highly qualified attorney in civil rights law, and his personal friend. He essentially allowed her critics on the right to savage her as a radical leftist and racial agitator in order to protect his reputation as a “New Democrat.” Strangely enough, one of Guinier’s most vocal defenders was a Republican lawyer and businessman who served in the Eisenhower administration and later was a cabinet member during the Ford administration.
“The loss of Lani Guinier as Assistant Attorney General for civil rights is a grave one, both for President Clinton and the country. The President’s yanking of the nomination, caving in to shrill, unsubstantiated attacks, was not only unfair, but some would say political cowardice.
“Although Ms. Guinier does not advocate forcing cumulative voting plans upon local jurisdictions, she suggests that some localities may prefer a race-neutral plan to a race-conscious plan. This idea is hardly radical. During the Bush Administration, the Justice Department approved alternative voting systems in at least 35 different jurisdictions.”
• William T. Coleman Jr. (Secretary of Transportation under President Ford), June 4, 1993 NY Times column supporting Lani Guinier’s nomination
So, what terrible “anti-democratic” views had Lani Guinier proposed in her legal writings? We know she opposed majority African American districts to ensure black politicians would be elected. We also know she argued against the use of racial quotas, a classic racist dog whistle still used by Republicans and conservatives today to appeal to the basest instincts of white voters. Well, it was nothing so “horrendous” as that.
In her much demonized and derided legal writings, she argued that our winner take all electoral system is at its heart undemocratic because it limits our voting rights as citizens. In almost every election, voters are presented with only two options, the candidate of Party A (i.e., the Republicans, at present a radical far right wing party) or the candidate of Party B (i.e., the Democrats, who for the most part offer up a paler shade of conservative economic dogma). Guinier argues, instead for a new system of voting to allow a wider range of political views to be represented in government. What she proposes is a system in which “every citizen has the right to equal legislative influence.”
What does that mean? It means she wants elections to offer voters more choices through procedural adjustments both in how we choose elected officials and in how certain decisions by legislatures are made. For example, she once suggested that laws that would unduly effect minority populations (however you wish to define minorities) should require more than a simple majority to pass. In effect, such super-majority requirements would operate much like the filibuster in the United States Senate does, forcing opposing sides into a dialogue by offering those in the minority a veto power over laws they view as aimed at their constituents, whether that be pot smokers, bicycle riders, or more traditional minority groups such as those based on racial, ethnic and gender lines.
The proposal to which she has devoted most of her academic effort, however, has to do with the way in which we vote. Guinier was, and remains, an advocate for what is often referred to as cumulative voting (see, also, Proportional representation). This is not a radical idea by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, it is currently employed by any number of large and small for profit companies to ensure that minority shareholders are able to elect directors to a corporation’s board to represent their interests. Here is how the SEC describes cumulative voting procedures:
Cumulative voting is a type of voting system that helps strengthen the ability of minority shareholders to elect a director. This method allows shareholders to cast all of their votes for a single nominee for the board of directors when the company has multiple openings on its board. In contrast, in “regular” or “statutory” voting, shareholders may not give more than one vote per share to any single nominee. For example, if the election is for four directors and you hold 500 shares (with one vote per share), under the regular method you could vote a maximum of 500 shares for each one candidate (giving you 2,000 votes total—500 votes per each of the four candidates). With cumulative voting, you are afforded the 2,000 votes from the start and could choose to vote all 2,000 votes for one candidate, 1,000 each to two candidates, or otherwise divide your votes whichever way you wanted.
The idea behind cumulative voting is to do a better job ensuring that legislative bodies include representatives who owe their allegiance not just to a single party (which may or may not fairly represent the widest range of views held by constituents) but to the people who cast their ballots specifically for them. It would empower and give a voice to people who support positions on issues that are often underrepresented in our current winner take all system.
At present, our two party duopoly limits the options presented to voters, eliminating many candidates who hold views the party establishments, for various reasons (including not wanting to go against the interests of their major financial backers), do not and never will tolerate or accept.
Their are a variety of ways in which cumulative voting procedures could be implemented. In our history, cumulative voting methods have been used in the past to elect members to the Illinois state legislature (1870-1980) and to elect members to many local boards such as city councils, and various elected commissions. In fact, there is a good argument to be made that cumulative voting leads to less partisan divide, a process that is crippling Congress at the moment.
From 1870 through 1980 we elected three state reps per district. In Republican-leaning districts, voters usually elected two GOP reps and one Democratic rep. In Democratic-leaning districts, the reverse was true. But every person in the state was represented by both political parties in Springfield.
In the greater Rockford area, liberal E.J. “Zeke” Giorgi was routinely elected as the Democratic rep. From 1971 through 1980, one of the two GOP reps was W. Timothy Simms, a conservative Republican. Simms believes that multi-member districts were better because the House was less partisan then, and more work got done collaboratively.
I’m not suggesting that cumulative voting is a panacea for all that ails our current political system, one awash in the stink of legalized bribery. However, it is far from being a radical or anti-democratic notion, as Bill Clinton sanctimoniously proclaimed as he threw his now former friend, and one of the most highly qualified lawyers on civil rights law (irrespective of the fact she was an African American female) under the bus merely because of his concern for how supporting her against the ill-founded, demonstrably false, and patently racist attacks made by a few conservative Republicans might make him look to white voters. In short, his decision was all about Bill Clinton and had little to do with the character or quality of Lani Guinier or her views in voting rights:
… Clinton, pounding the White House briefing room lectern with his fist, said he would have stuck with Guinier even if no senator voted for her, had he not disagreed with some of her views.
“The problem is that this battle will be waged based on her academic writings,” he said. “And I cannot fight a battle that I know is divisive, that is an uphill battle, that is distracting to the country if I do not believe in the ground of the battle. This has nothing to do with the political center. This has to do with my center.”
While praising Guinier’s integrity and work as a civil rights lawyer, Clinton admitted that he had not read her articles in depth until Thursday. “I have to tell you that, had I read them before I nominated her, I would not have done so,” he said.
Remember, this was at a time Democrats controlled both the House and the Senate (where they held 57 seats). Bill Clinton didn’t have to back down because of these scurrilous attacks on Professor Guinier. He could have stuck by her, and at the very least given her the opportunity to respond and address the baseless charges made against her in a formal hearing before the Senate.
Instead, he told her of his withdrawal of her nomination over the phone. And afterwards, he and Hillary cut off all contact with their former friend.
Although Guinier says the Clintons were her friends and even attended her small wedding, she has not had even a phone call from them since her nomination was withdrawn:
“I think this is a friendship that has been put in jeopardy by politics.”
Something to remember, when you hear how loyal and devoted the Clintons are to the Black community. That loyalty, at least when it came to one African American lawyer who was their close friend and law school classmate, only went one way. And when it came time for Bill Clinton to show his true colors, he flinched and attacked his own friend at the merest hint of a threat to his political reputation. Why? Because the Wall Street Journal and one former Reagan official out for revenge against “liberals’ for the way serial sexual harasser, Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas, was treated in his Senate confirmation hearings, lied and defamed her.
Amazing, isn’t it, how little it took to cause Bill Clinton’s white privileged Presidential sphincter muscle to tighten up. The mere possibility that standing up for his friend and supporter might make him look like a [ugly racial slur deleted] lover to the white electorate was all it took for him to savage her reputation and career to the exigencies of keeping him in good standing with the good old boys in the Beltway Establishment.
I know that you don’t like Hillary.
Hell, I could give you chapter and verse about the Clintons.
But, your Bernie has no standing with Black people.
Black folk need folk to vouch for them.
Black folk turned to the 3 Black people in Vermont to tell us some stories about Bernie that would put us at ease – those of us who don’t believe the man relates to our lives – at all.
They had nothing good to say about him.
Period.
He talks banks, but never used the language concerning banks that would indicate to Black folks that he understood their struggle.
He’s not my Bernie.
I don’t deign to speak for all black people. There are plenty who do support him. Others have spoken for him at his rallies or posted YouTube videos or otherwise endorsed him. So, some black people must think he speaks for them
I have no idea who these three black people in Vermont you refer to are?
Three unnamed people was enough to convince you that Bernie doesn’t get Black people and therefore you should support Clinton?
Okay, to each his or her own.
Fact.
In all the years in Congress Bernie never hired ONE Black Staffer.
Fact.
In every state, there’s always a Black group involved with Black issues – even in states with a low Black population.
Folks went to those people. Those involved with Black issues and concerns in Vermont, and asked them about Bernie Sanders.
THEY had nothing positive to say about him.
There are only 3 Black people in Vermont, and he ignored them. WOuldn’t even respect them with their concerns.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/liam-miller/african-american-leaders-in-vermont_b_9300672.html
From TPV:
There’s a specific language that he could have talked about banks to let Black folks know that he understood our issues with the Banks.
He never even tried.
Now, now, rikyrah, I’m sure the kindly progressives for Sanders will be happy to go on explaining to you how wrong you are. After all, look how nice a job they did explaining why all those black voters in the Southern primaries were so silly to vote for Clinton, and how useless their votes were anyway.
I could feel you slipping away and now you’re gone.
did anyone here say that?
Of course not, but once in that camp there are certain standard issue memes that the troops trot out whenever possible.
Perhaps the simplest explanation is that his issues DO NOT resonate with AA.
They did not convince many bidness Hispanics in Texas.
I am curious to see if California Hispanics are more open. Asians certainly are.
Black people with a long, proud, and strong record of getting it right are those that I look to for guidance on people and issues that are good for other black people.
Man — can’t believe you’re saying that people like Harry Belafonte, Danny Glover, and Erica Garner have no clue as to what other AAs think and feel.
No matter who the candidate is the idea that Superdelegates can actually overrule voters is to me undemocratic. This could be one main reason that voters stay home for it sure looks like the average voters vote does not count or matter much.
Debo Adegbile
He got a vote in the Senate, at least, and President Obama re-nominated him after the initial rejection. From your link:
Throwing the brilliant Lani Guinier under the bus is one of many things that I’ll never overlook about the Clintons. They’re users and don’t hesitate to toss away those that are no longer useful to them.
Well, to people my age? Our question is: who is Lani Guiner, and why should we care?
I feel there’s such an age desparity here among so many arguments with the Clintons that I can’t even follow arguments among commenters without googling who you’re talking about.
Yes, there is that. lol
It’s so annoying lol. I mean, even someone like Tom Hayden, man. WE DONT GIVE A FUCK. I don’t care about Tom Hayden. All of the people in my age bracket don’t care about Tom Hayden, and to a vast majority they don’t even know who he is.
I’m confused here. Is the topic Hillary Clinton, her husband Bill Clinton’s administration and record, Lani Guinier, or cumulative voting.
There is a backhanded form of cumulative voting that minority voters have practiced for years where there are multiple candidates for a single office, such as when you get to vote for all five members of a city council of county commission. That is, at best what might be called negative cumulative voting or by its common name “single-shotting”. By voting for one candidate instead of five, the candidate voted for gets a one-vote margin additional from the votes deprived from the other candidates. When the mathematics and turnout is right, it can result in the election of preferred pattern of a council. And it can be a tactic for a reform vote to remove a corrupt politician with a designated alternative.
Yes, Lani Guinier got a raw deal from already gunshy Clintons who were hit with a firestorm instead of a honeymoon from Newt’s lust for revolution and the just established Republican Wurlitzer. The Clintons did not know what hit them. Their advisors were conflict-averse, and the media advised capitulation. Check the PBS NewsHour tapes.
The amount of betrayal of voters by both parties and the media that was going on at the end of the Cold War is astounding. And also the corrupt games now that the United States no longer needed to be united to fight the commies.
These are much different times. The Clintons earned their minority support in Arkansas; that doesn’t disappear quickly despite the Big Dog’s gaffes in South Carolina and elsewhere. Going to the mat in Arkansas to pass tax increases to increase funding of public schools earns a lifetime’s support. Sanders’s local situation did not easily lend to that sort of relationship. And it is always easy for business-friendly candidates to whipsaw candidates who pursue class issues with a counterattack of identity issues outside of a class issues context. All they have to do is deliver on some symbolic issues pursued by those identity groups. Over their careers, the Clintons have delivered on both symbolic and substantive identity politics priorities but never enough to erase the class issues imbedded at the heart of those identity issues.
Whether that was as a result of the times, allies, personal weakness, or a failure of principle is what all the primary campaign argument has been about. What it has not been about is a contrary principle; for that you have to go the wilder factions of Republicans. The Clinton Era might have been a bubble economy and false budget balancing, but there are a lot of minority college graduates who got the step into a career or the expansion of a career during that period. And for enough of them, that did not disappear with the Great Recession. And although the recovery during the Obama administration was lackluster, a lot of those same people saw steady if moderated progress in their careers. Enough to provide legitimate support for Clinton as bearer of Obama’s third term. To them Bernie’s policies are prospective and Clinton’s have benefitted them; to be true, Clinton’s triangulation has disadvantaged other minorities and white working people, but these people have benefitted. And it’s enough to provide a margin that Bernie Sanders has not found a way to overcome.
The most significant thing that Sanders did for minorities and working class whites is his amendment for community health clinics added to the Affordable Care Act and his joining in pressing for higher medical cost ratios to insurance companies. Too often in the political back-and-forth, this signficant part of Obamacare has been overlooked by folks more interested in tearing down the primary opponent than putting the honest record out there. Social media has not distinguished itself this year, especially paid social media, in this regard. I suppose that for established political operatives, that is what the money is for–win at any cost.
Any illusions that Bernie Sanders is going to bail just because the Clinton campaign is wanting to pivot to the general should now be gone. It is time to go back to competing on principles, policies, and enlistment of candidates to challenge Republicans strongly in geography in which Republicans have been given a free ride for years and decades. Why can’t there be a black-white fusion party that kicks the corrupt politicians of both parties out of state government and Congress in the South, Illinois, New York, New Jersey and some other notorious havens of not representing the people? Why cannot Democrats take seats in the Valley of California and the Valley of Virginia?
Oh, yeah: And it is always easy for business-friendly candidates to whipsaw candidates who pursue class issues with a counterattack of identity issues outside of a class issues context. All they have to do is deliver on some symbolic issues pursued by those identity groups. All they have to do is deliver on some symbolic issues pursued by those identity groups. Over their careers, the Clintons have delivered on both symbolic and substantive identity politics priorities but never enough to erase the class issues embedded at the heart of those identity issues.
Janet Reno wanted to go to bat for Guinier. Clinton, her friend, said no. And then he went out of his way to tarnish her image further by adding to the lies about her academic writing. I have no idea what the Clinton’s have earned that deserves their continued level of support from any group.
Except their donors and those who benefit from their pay to play political system, that is.
I don’t know what the Clintons have done to earn the continued support of the Black community, but the Black community does, and I’m willing to take their word on it.
If it were just one instance, you might have a point. But there was also Joycelyn Elders and Marian Wright Edelman to name but two more.
The Elders firing was unforgivable.
Couldn’t you have saved a ton of typing by just posting “I hate Hillary!”
Then just copy/paste 100 times?
That bastard Bill. How dare he nominated the first female African American to head the civil rights division. What a monster.
I don’t hate Hillary. I do see her and hr husband as emblematic of what is wrong with our current pay to play corporately financed political system, however.
And as for copying and pasting the same message over and over, I leave that for people who are too lazy or otherwise disinclined to research their subject matter. You may be happy with the Clinton and their style of politics. I’ve found many many reasons not to be so sanguine regarding their motives and policy positions.
Steven, given the amount, frequency, and intensity of the vitriol you have directed against Hillary Clinton in the last few weeks, your protestation that you don’t hate her rings hollow.
I’ll refer you back to that posting you shared recently in which you mentioned the Eightfold Path. Please let’s have more of that sort of thoughtful stuff.
Your complaints against Steven posts reminds me of the complaints against Harry Truman’s statements by his opponents.
His reply;
If what Steven keeps posting about is TRUE and you see it as;
Maybe your real complaint ain’t what Steven writes but the fact it’s true,
Maybe you should be complaining to the person who made it true instead of those that report the truth.
Or maybe a lot of it isn’t true, and that is why we are complaining.
Or maybe some folks are so thoroughly vested in a candidate who appears most likely to win the nomination (and quite possibly the presidency) that anyone who expresses dislike for her politics is quickly seen as an enemy who doesn’t want her (and the Democrats) to succeed.
They may know what other AAs feel, but they are clearly not agreeing with their decision.
I did call it a history lesson seabe.
Fine. But it’s so much ancient history that I don’t even care. I don’t. I’m 27. And all I know of the Clintons is pure poison. I want nothing to do with them. But history like this is such is irrelevant, particularly so when the movers and shakers of the D Party pushed Clinton to throw her under the bus.
Am I to put Clinton on the same level as…Ted Kennedy, who opposed her? This history is useless to the vast majority of history out there exposing the poison that is The Clintons.
Yep, this is close to the bottom of the list of reasons not to support Hillary Clinton. It’s a nice bit of history, sure. People can look up Shirley Sherrod in 20 years as well. At least Bernie only suspended Simone Zimmerman.
booo hoooo i dont know history, booo hooo i dont want to know history, booo hooo i dont care about history, booo hooo thats why im so stupid i believe republican talking points about the clintons, boo hooo my guy isnt winning, booo hooo its a conspiracy, boo hooo i dont want to grow up, booo hooo i want a pony, booo hooo i want candy but i dont want to pay for it, boo hooo i wasnt breast fed, booo hoooo everything i know i learned from internet memes, boo hooo booo hoooo booo hoooo.
if everyone voted we could fix the electoral college and campaign finance and all the other issues. but people dont get up and vote. they whine, but they dont do whats needed to change the things. stop blaming the clintons for all the things. we cant have the nice things because people dont vote, not because the clintons messed everything up.
you’re writing this to seabe? yer kidding right?
What’s particularly amusing is that it was a defacto defense of Clinton.
I’ve been on this blog since 2008 via The Field, and only since this Spring have I seen posts that repeat boo hoo boo hoo boo hoo boo hoo boo hoo. Hmmm!
yes, same here. and to seabe of all posters.
There were seven co-sponsors total, all prominent Democrats (Sanders was an independent at the time). The bill never came up for a vote.
Are you saying Sanders and all the other non-sponsors opposed the bill? Are you claiming the failure to so-sponsor a bill means you object to it?
Weak tea objection.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1993-10-18/news/9310180099_1_hispanics-leobardo-estrada-political
-power
suggestion: either rant against the candidate, or against a specific commenter; there are lots of Sanders supporters on this blog and your comments insult us all not just the person you may be targeting.
Errol, I assume you are addressing this to both sides in the divide, and are also asking for more civility from Sanders supporters.
.
well, I know emotions run high in this primary. what I’m asking is that ppl be specific, either rant against the candidates [what’s wrong with that except it’s sort of a waste of time when informed discussion might be more constructive] or, if one wants to differ with or rant against supporters of Sanders or Clinton, address a specific commenter not “NN’s supporters” in general. that should create more civility in the long run.
I’ve seen here in quite some time.
*(in case my actual rating fails to “stick”, as they nearly always do)
thank you! btw how is Denise doing?
she has no Dem primary opponent, so nothing to poll there. And I’m not aware of any polling of her vs. Zinke in November, either.
from which Obama emerges smelling a lot better than Clinton (i.e., he stuck with his immensely well-qualified — especially considering the nature of the position each was nominated to — nominee about as far as could reasonably expected/demanded).
It’s a long-standing grievance of mine that politicians, especially Dem politicians, do the opposite as often as they do.
GOPer/Cons get the value of a stand on principle even in a lost cause, and even when the cause is ludicrous (except to their wingnut ‘base’).
Dems tend to cave, rather than mount an easily articulated defense, even when the merits of the case are indisputable, at least within the Reality-Based Community. (E.g., my [Dem!] Sen. [Tester], in a Profile of Political Cowardice, voted against Adegbile. Can you tell I’m still furious about that?)
Um, I’ve been reading on this blog for weeks and weeks that the primaries won by Hillary Clinton in the South are irrelevant because Democrats won’t win those states in November. That is in fact a “standard issue meme” by dint of repetition. And it’s about as silly as claiming that Sanders’ wins in Idaho & Wyoming, say, as irrelevant because Democrats won’t win those states in November, either.
First of all, “that meme” is not repeated often on this blog, but here you are the one repeating it again! Second, this is a political blog and it is interesting to examine each primary candidate’s strengths and weaknesses in each of the 50 states. IMHO, each state is unique, although there are regions composed of similar states. But just maybe one state in a particular region could be ripe for the picking. Bingo!
my point is have you ever seen it on this blog? I haven’t and i certainly never wrote it. if you have, address the person who wrote it, not all of us Sanders supporters. that should cut down the bad feeling over the long run.
Errol–
Please go to the comment thread linked here:
http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2016/3/9/104241/6197
It includes the following, including a comment by you:
Re: The people’s election? (4.00 / 3)
Clinton holds a 60-40% advantage in the popular vote.
Yes, right now,after the majority of the primaries were held in states, mostly old confederacy states, demographically favourable to her.
Going forward not the case.
by clif on Thu Mar 10th, 2016 at 07:19:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: The people’s election? (4.00 / 2)
states that a dem won’t win in the General anyway. that’s such a weird stat to bring out
by Errol on Thu Mar 10th, 2016 at 08:22:28 AM EST
I rest my case about the appearance at Booman Tribune of the claim that Hillary Clinton’s victories in southern states don’t really count.
I have not done an exhaustive search, but I think the item I’ve shown here ought to suffice.
I’m actually planning to vote for Sanders in the Oregon primary, and I’m not much of a Hillary Clinton fan. It might be better not to jump to conclusions from comments I post that in fact contain nothing endorsing a candidate.
that was an interesting thread to link, thanks. Mostly to and fro about data as I read it and prognosis;I didn’t see much name calling and insults. my one comment to which I assume you refer about the stats for number of voters – maybe should have clarified by assumed most ppl here knew what the reference was,– is what we went through time and again in 2008 discussion, that it’s the state by state electoral numbers that are determinative, [what I did not say, but will now, is that we can assume most dem voters in the primary [note I write most, not all], who vote in General, will vote for the dem candidate, so that’s another reason I find it puzzling that stat is brought out; Tarheel dem corrected the scoffers [and implicity I was one of them] writing that dems should / might win some usually-red states, and of course he’s right [is he ever wrong?].
it’s an interesting thread b/c that’s where Booman writes, the first and only time iirc, that “even if Clinton is indicted” the supers won’t abandon her.
otherwise, as far as my comments goes, yes, I’m concerned about foreign policy, Clinton’s stance on Syria, Ukraine, and the like. I didn’t see any discussion of AA voters on the thread,
I guess I stand by my suggestion above re: civility on the threads – object to specific comments, not “Sanders supporters …”
I guess the other issue there, voter turnout. imo that’s a major issue for the General. your thoughts?
in fact it will help us all if you could find a couple instances of it; perhaps it’s there and I’ve just glossed over it. we will all be instructed if you point out these instances and hopefully become more civil.
Errol, the search feature here sucks, but it has been said, and repeatedly. By people posting in this thread right now. Or people here have dismissed those voters (‘in the south elderly AA voters just do what their church tells them to do’) in racist ways.
You don’t believe me, fine. But what do you think the ‘Sanders won more districts in new York’ was all about?
It was dismissing POC votes.
Nobody needs to prove anything. We have read it, you missed it.
.
well I don’t recall seeing it here, plenty of times on the Orange place of course. but how about just responding to comments that are here? that way it’s clear to whom you are responding.
Errol, please see what I posted just upthread as a reply to you.
I sourced where you made a comment yourself about Democrats not winning southern states anyway in November.
I truly have no interest in a pissing match, and I will cheerfully accept that you don’t recall making that (brief) comment in a thread back in early March.
thanks, yes, will check – working this weekend, will have time to check later and reply
actually, not accurate, my comment above; I may have read things along those lines usually don’t read the inflamnatory type comments very carefully
at the Orange place [must call it a day now since I can’t type any more]
Gawd do I dislike identity politics….
As long as there are forms and applications which ask one to mark the little square boxes identifying gender, race, ethnicity, income, religion, etc. there will be identity politics.
As long as there are gender, race, ethnicity, income, religion, etc. there will be identity politics. Who we are will always affect how we choose our leaders.
What I said was that as long as there are forms and applications which request that information, there will be identify politics. IMHO, we are all more alike than we are different. Putting people in little boxes can sometimes divide them, which can result in supporting the old adage: Divide and conquer/rule. Just my $.02.
There’s nothing wrong with identity politics in and of itself. The problem asserts itself when there is a downplaying of identity (“who cares? Color/gender blindness) or when people try to sell pols on pure identity.
That’s what’s so taxing to someone like me. I support identity politics. Yet I cannot stand — in fact I’ll own Steven’s denial, I hate Clinton and what she stands for. She is literally forcing me to choose, and it’s stripping identity politics of any positive. She is the last person anyone should be supporting on that basis alone.
I dislike identity politics primarily because it leads people to make generalizations and assumptions about ethnic or racial groups other than their own. I’m perfectly comfortable reflecting on my own ethnic minority, but I’m distinctly uncomfortable when commenters here start making off the cuff remarks about “AA” voters, say, as some sort of other. It feels to me like prejudice (meaning pre-judging, alright? not meaning bigotry) and arrogance.
I understand what you are saying. Of course people have different needs due to their situation, and politicians need to be reminded of that. Ideally, I wish people would focus on income inequality, issues threatening our democracy, and climate change. These problems cross age, gender, race, ethnicity, and religion lines. That was my point about too many little boxes.
That’s fine as far as it goes, and ideally we would have people supporting those things PLUS having identity that’s not well represented. But you can’t tell me identity politics just don’t matter or that there aren’t positive reasons to value them. When this little boy felt Obama’s hair to see that it was the same as his? That mattered. It mattered that Obama was black. And you can’t take that away:
Agree and I remember that picture you embedded. It emits very positive feelings. Just don’t like identity politics when it is misused and I have seen it misused on both sides. I am just an old believer of Lincoln’s statement: “A house divided against itself cannot stand.”
Yes where I draw the line is HRC’s bullshit of “will breaking up the banks solve racism? No.” It’s such an absurd line of argument, and it pisses me off because a lot of the left views things like abortion access as a “side issue that’s tangential to identity politics”. So Clinton is willing to sell identity politics at the expense of economic justice, divide the left even more, all for her own self-interested political gain. And to that I say, no thank you, HRC, I will not subscribe to your style of identity politics. It’s poisonous.
You said it better than I could have. Exactly!
The one lesson the modern day (southern strategy) GOtPers learned from Lincoln that they keep in practice, divide the poor by race, try to pit them against each other by race, and stealing elections is easier.
Same for religion and other social issues.
No need to trouble the rich cause the people are fighting over social issues and the rich just keep skimming as much as they can right off the top.
Seems the triangulation DLC/DNCers have been using the same lessons the last couple of decades.
Yes and well said.
Yes.
Exactly.
The line that at least the latter two don’t cross? The one between Reality-Based and Reality-Denying Communities.
Let me get this straight: Lani Guinier was thrown under the bus by “the Clintons”? Not by William Jefferson Clinton, President of the United States, but by “the Clintons”?
“ELECT Bill Clinton, the candidate was wont to say during the 1992 campaign, ‘and you get two for the price of one’.”
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/bill-and-hillarys-double-trouble-clintons-two-for-the-price-of-o
ne-pledge-is-returning-to-haunt-him-1427937.html
Yes, by the Clintons. For proof notice that both Clintons effectively cute ties with her.
Bill Clinton announced during his campaign in 1992 that they were a packaged deal. Bragged about how we’d get two for one. Gave her the job of reforming health care, which she bungled big time. Now, if anyone criticizes Hillary for her part in his policies while President or his post-presidential actions, they are sexist, fail to recognize she’s her own agent, etc. If she were so independent of her husband, Lani Guinier would still be her friend and supporter.
Many may consider this a small example, but for me it symbolizes how the Clintons want to use the power of being a team but at the same time want to deny it. I don’t buy it. And worry that Bill’s influence will be well beyond appropriate for the spouse of the POTUS, if she is elected.
I have the same worry. I think spouse of expresident should not be eligible to run actually.
Well, at least you have Google. Imagine back to 1968 (well, many of us were far younger than 27) and the visceral hatred that many liberals had for Nixon. How were we to understand that if we didn’t no anymore than that he’d been a two-term VP (under a POTUS that many to that day expressed respect for) and that he’d barely lost the 1960 election? The whole McCarthy era had been erased in the general public consciousness and therefore, those that were young had no notion that it had even existed. No Google back then. Only periodical indexes and index cards at the library.
That “nobody my age cares about that old stuff” is how important parts of our history get lost and we end up repeating the same old mistakes.
Certainly labor is being edited out of our printed history. I really enjoy the GOS diaries that one poster puts up.
Well my point is that we don’t even need to go to this sort of history to understand who the Clintons are and why they must be opposed. You pointed to a perfect example below with respect to guns. That is sufficient enough. This stuff, to me anyway, is just inside baseball ancient history of “who cares?”
Ah, but you see if another million Americans had known who the real history available at that time of Nixon, the McCarthy era, and Ike’s FP in 1968, they would have “known” that Nixon was lying about have a “secret plan” to end the war and that it was Ike’s team that had initiated the US folly in Vietnam (as well as being concerned about what we had done in Iran) and voted accordingly that would have been the end of having to deal with Nixon. (HHH was a decent man but we would have had to hope and push him to see the light on Vietnam. If we had failed at that, we still would have been better off for having rejected Nixon.) Had millions more learned about and knew Nixon in ’72, they too would have been able to see what Nixon was up to in trying to have the Pentagon Papers censored in ’71 and in ’72 have seen Nixon’s fingerprints on the Watergate break-in and voted according.
Had they known Nixon, they would have demanded his resignation at the completion of the Senate Watergate hearing in 1973 (it was broadcast live and PBS aired the recorded version every evening). Then we would have ended up with Agnew — but only for a couple of months. McGovern and Eagleton would have been looking real good to some folks about then.
So you say. I call bullshit. Maybe, just maybe, people knew what they were getting, they agreed with it, and they wanted it.
My first career was teaching history, world history. My specialty was a subset of non-Western history. I was constantly asked what use was history? Why teach it? This was at the peak of the Vietnam War. Many of my students were going to end up there. Many could not locate Vietnam on a map. Most had no understanding of colonialism. I believed they deserved an understanding of SE Asian history, colonialism, the two World Wars, etc. if they were going to be sent to war and possibly die for something. Or other. Freedom and democracy, you know.
Same goes for young people going to the Middle East in the last decade. Many of them came back, not only physically and emotionally damaged for life, but completely disillusioned and befuddled about why we ever got involved in a shooting war in the Middle East. Without some knowledge of history, they have no context to understand our actions and their own role. Again, colonialism’s legacy is relevant, as are the treaties and settlements after WW I and WW II. Along with a huge dollop of the region’s ethnic and religious history.
To say you don’t need to know history to understand what is going on in today’s world is both profoundly ignorant and dangerous.
This is bringing back so many memories. Many thought Joycelyn Elders was just what was needed for the Surgeon General position. She could have made a difference in so many areas that remain problematic today. Frankness is sometimes the only thing that works. Additionally, she was one smart lady and just “cool.”
With the NY primary out of the way, “Annie Oakley” is back:
Billmon:
I wish she’d just drive around in a tank, channeling Dukakis.
Larry Data:
But this “shit” sells real well for those without functioning brains and internet access.
An some people wonder why there are those of us who question every word out of her mouth…
They don’t wonder — they merely call us “Hillary haters” for pointing out her lies and hypocrisies. Beyond Orwellian that truth-tellers = Hillary haters.
Your claim that Hillary is essentially made out of “lies and hypocrisies” is a claim. It is not “truth telling”. Confusing claims with truth is the Orwellian act here.
We’ve been round and round about this. Hillary had a liberal voting record in the Senate. Her chief policy advocacies were to move forward items in the liberal project and to oppose almost all of what President Bush was trying to do during her Senate terms.
Two votes, a handful of anecdotes, and the worst faith projection of personal motivations imaginable do not comprise “truth telling” on a politician’s record. Rhetoric like this certainly hasn’t worked to flip the number of Hillary voters into Bernie voters that we always knew we needed to get Sanders the nomination.
Hardly.
Yes, we have been round and round about this because there is not agreement on this point. Clinton had a mixed record, or dare I say it, a record of a centrist. Supporting her liberal credentials by saying she was opposed to Bush II says nothing. I can’t think of a lower bar to measure against.
And an attitude like this may prevent some Sanders supporters from voting for Clinton in the fall. Happy?
No, not happy at all to contemplate Sanders supporters taking actions which would put Trump, Cruz or another radical in the White House in November. Polling evidence is not showing that outcome to be a likely one, but it’s disappointing that you wield it as a misguided threat here.
Look, it’s not an “attitude,” it’s objective fact:
http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/hillary-clinton-was-liberal-hillary-clinton-is-liberal/
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/28/upshot/the-senate-votes-that-divided-hillary-clinton-and-bernie-sa
nders.html?_r=0
Here’s a take which matches that from many here, but it acknowledges her truly liberal record:
http://americablog.com/2015/04/hillary-clinton-was-the-11th-most-liberal-senator-why-that-does-and-d
oesnt-matter.html
The idea being frequently forwarded here is that there are “Liberals”, and there are “Centrists”. The definition by many here is that a Centrist is anyone who believes Barack Obama has been a good President, and who is willing to fairly consider Hillary Clinton’s full record, crediting her for the good, holding against her the bad, and considering the context of her votes and advocacies.
The voters are in the process of making their choice on our side of the spectrum. That choice will be in front of us in November.
At least we now know if they stay home it will be your attitude to blame.
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You have polling from the future? Good to know that you have evidence for something that hasn’t happened yet. And yes, I know the question can be asked now but it is way to early to get useful information from such a question.
I reviewed each of those links; I would hardly call the evidence they provide as “objective fact”. And to be honest, when two out of your three sources are hardly know for their objectivity on this issue, you have an issue.
Your talk of “Liberals” and “Centrists” aside, I have seen little evidence on these pages recently which demonstrate “holding against her the bad”.
BS, the decision on the democratic side of spectrum was made before the voting even started.
So, in response to an attempt at reasonable dialogue, you wish to maintain the threat that you and other Sanders supporters might take a walk in November. And that helps our movement and Bernie’s policy goals how, exactly?
If the voters were as disgusted with President Obama and Hillary Clinton as you claim they are, they have had a completely viable option in Senator Sanders. The non-Clinton voters on the Dem side made a very conscious choice to consolidate behind Bernie’s campaign, refusing to support O’Malley at all.
Would you have wished we had over a dozen primary candidates, as the GOP has experienced? Doesn’t seem to have worked out well for them. That would have prevented Hillary from receiving a viable challenger for the nomination. Instead, she will be forced to run hard all the way to the Convention, a much better outcome, an outcome which worked out well for Barack Obama’s 2008 campaign.
I’ve mentioned many times my opposition to Clinton’s foreign policy instincts, and have said that I would be joining in on other critiques of her here if those roles weren’t so thoroughly filled and absurdly stated by so many here. I’m voting for Sanders for a reason, but I’m a political grownup and am preparing for what will need to be done during the general election campaign. I believe we need to make sure that the Democratic Party POTUS nominee and the most liberal viable Congressional candidates win in November. Doing things which hurt this effort would be betrayals of the movement I am proud to be in, despite our differences on campaign strategy, policy advocacies and judgments on political realities and political history.
While I agree that the dialogue was reasonable, the request was not. Why are those who will not vote for Clinton, if she is the Democratic nominee, treated as the worst kind of voter? Why is this choice viewed as a “threat”?
Yes, they had a completely viable option in Sanders. The problem is early on the MSM, DNC, and related social media attempted to ridicule, dismiss, and treat as naive anyone who supported or voted for Sanders. So while the choice was there, I feel that many voters were shamed, conned, or bullied into either voting for the “winning candidate” or not voting at all.
Yes, I actually do wish the Democrats had more candidates. How did you determine that such a scenario would prevent a viable challenger to Clinton? Unless you know exactly who would have run if the field was more inviting, you statement has no merit. And I’m surprised that what is going on in the GOP is being used as predictor of what would go on with the Democrats.
You are completely entitled to your views and to vote as you describe. You are not entitled to speak down to others that don’t share your position: “but I’m a political grownup”. Just because my possible plan of action is something you don’t support doesn’t make it childish.
While I doubt there are many who are as extreme as I am, I have not decided if I want another 4 to 8 years of the political system slowly getting worse while being told it takes time to enact change. The last eight years didn’t lead to any real change in the systemic issues our nation is facing.
I believe that if Clinton is the nominee of the Democratic party then the movement is already betrayed, and there little reason to continue to prop up a party that is openly dismissive of people like me.
The idea that voters can be shamed, conned or bullied by the MSM and DNC into voting for a particular candidate, or not voting at all, is peculiar. It simply doesn’t meet my experiences talking with voters on phones and at the doors during campaigns. Of course, the claim is immune to being tested by empirical data, so it has the twin attributes of being both weak and impossible to disprove.
With her early substantial advantages in name recognition, strong polling among likely Democratic Party primary voters, fundraising and institutional support, I think the odds weigh heavily with the likelihood that a bigger Dem field would have split the non-Hillary vote so substantially it would have made it less possible to mount the challenge that Sanders has mounted.
I concede it’s also not a completely testable thesis and that the GOP primary experience is not entirely dispositive, but I stand on the belief. In the end, it was up to the various Democrats who you believe would have been more inviting, whoever you believe they were. It doesn’t help us believe the others you have in mind would have been good candidates in 2016 if they lacked the fortitude or interest to run at all.
Over 20 million Americans have gained health insurance. The yearly rate of increase in the total cost of health care in the U.S. has been slashed substantially. The viability of Medicare financing has seen significant improvement. Many measurements of health care access, quality and outcomes have seen improvements. In this one policy area, one of many, there are many facts which argue against your claim that the Obama years has failed to deliver any real changes in addressing the systemic issues our nation is facing.
The sharp drop in the unemployment rate and imperfect stabilization of the job market are also worthwhile proofs of the efficacy of the policies the President and his first Congress were able to jam through before the voters slammed the doors shut to more progressive budget policies.
The record of the Administration on the environment has also been strong, from the greenhouse gas accord with 176 nations to the rejection of Keystone to the regulatory record of the EPA. I could go on to discuss other policy areas, but suffice to say you can read much in the record which makes the case that Obama has been an outstanding President from a progressive’s POV.
I want your help in forwarding our movement. The movement must proceed regardless of the electoral results. To decide at a certain moment that the movement has been betrayed by whomever you want to blame, and that this justifies your refusal to help elect the viable candidate whose vision most closely matches your own, is a betrayal in its own right, an ineffective betrayal.
I ask you to consider this case. I think it has merit, unless you want to claim that the policy and social visions being placed forward by the Republican candidates are no further away from your ideal than those being placed by Hillary. Lay that claim if you wish, but it would not sustain examination.
When I first read this I was going to provide a point by point rebuttal to the items you raised, but when I got the the last two paragraphs I was honestly moved by your request to stay with the movement and bring it forward.
Therefore I will be equally honest in my response.
You raise valid points, and I do agree that any GOP nominee would be far worse than Clinton. But even if I were to “embrace” the Democratic progress on these issues (for lack of a better word), the items I am about to list are of great concern to me and are what make my discussion a very difficult one.
While the positive items you list are important, none of them are as key to the core values on which this nation was founded as the problems I listed (with the exception of the environment). This is why it is very hard to get behind the movement and support it. While I may not be a big fan of Obama, I have no problem is stating that Clinton would be to the right of him on almost all issues. Given that Obama did little to address the issues I raised, and in some cases was responsible for advancing them, I can only imagine what Clinton might do.
I believe you are being sincere in your attempts to get me to support the movement. But until the issues I raised are addressed, I honestly don’t know that I could support the movement, support Clinton. I have no doubt that the GOP option it will far worse. But I’m no longer sure a slow march to the end of this nation versus a quick one is any better. Is it better to suffer for an indefinite period of time, or to face a sudden massive end? This is what gives me pause.
I will try and keep an open mind; to observe how the rest of the primary campaign plays out. Voting for Clinton over the GOP nominee will definitely be the lesser of two evils, but I’m not sure I can vote for evil.
IMHO, evil is evil. If you have a lesser amount of evil, you are still evil. That’s how I see it, anyway.
An analogy of Clinton supporters vs Sander supporters.
NSFW
http://youtu.be/YStuNiouiW4
I have nothing but respect for Guinier. And her ideas re: electoral sanity are serious and worthy of consideration.
And, as fond of him as I am generally, Bill Clinton has made some, shall we say, less than heroic choices.
But I’m more concerned right now with Hillary’s ethics (which I have yet to see a problem with), her judgment and qualifications. And there’s precious little in what you’ve written that relates to that.
Unless we’re playing guilt by association here. But I know you wouldn’t do that…
What makes you find of Bill Clinton “generally”?
I think if you are fond of Bill Clinton, you are less likely to find ethical issues with Hillary Clinton.
I think if you fill your heart with hate, everyone around you is miserable.
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Oh yes. Thank you.
What exactly does this have to do with my observation?
On the path this nation is going down, most everyone will be miserable, and it won’t be due to hate.
You’re not making a factual case that this has anything to do with the likely Democratic Party nominee. It’s just weak sophristy now; Bill becomes “the Clintons” which becomes Hillary, bing bang boom.
What’s going on with you, Steven? You’re capable of much better than this.
The primary isn’t going to end with a win by the nominee whose overall policy record we most favor. But for crissakes, Clinton is not the DEVIL. Collectively, we can push her leftward, but those who decide to have an ongoing rageathon will needlessly keep themselves out of the coalition and will not be helping us elect the best viable Congressional and Presidential candidates on our general election ballots.
As you well know, all the greatest accomplishments of our greatest elected leaders happened only after their electorates pushed them hard after Election Day. None of them, FDR, LBJ, Lincoln, your other favorites, none entered or exited the White House as saints.
What’s going to happen to you when almost all of your favorite national politicians and community leaders start campaigning hard for Clinton? That day is coming.
It’s been this way for a while now; she has long claimed that part of her resume includes her time as first lady. You can’t have it both ways.
Clinton is the devil for many progressives; she lies about various positions at various times to get the support/votes she needs. I’m not saying the GOP candidates aren’t worse, but that doesn’t prevent Clinton from being the devil.
Well, I thought I might get some consensus by laying the safe claim that Hillary is not Mephistopheles. We can’t even agree on that hilariously broad point.
Let’s have a laugh, then:
The primary will end soon.
Doesn’t this sort of destroy the entire rest of your piece? I’m with you that this was not the Democratic Party’s finest hour, and that Guirnier was treated very poorly in general, and that at least this side of the story does not speak well of the Clintons’ personal treatment of her. But not even Ted Kennedy or Carol Mosely-Braun was willing to defend her. Honestly, in that scenario, are you sure you would have made the choice to push forward with her nomination?
Bill and Hillary are not my favorite people, but not all of the problems with our politics, in the 90’s or now, boils down to their personal failures, as your writing of late seems to suggest.
I found this clip from Thomas Frank’s book, “Listen, Liberal” to be very informative:
I have the answer Steven: sit this election out. Better yet, vote Trump or Cruz. I promise not to hold it against you. After all, Bill left the presidency more popular than St. Ronnie according to many polls because he and his wife were horrible people.
???? what do you mean?
I mean, Steven could save himself the time and pain on these long pieces if he just said to hell with it all. Bill Clinton left office a very popular president, though not a perfect one. If you don’t like his wife, dont vote for her. The Left always wins by losing anyway, right?
Maybe I’m missing a key point, but since when does popularity have anything do due with the actual record of accomplishments and failures of a president? A key driver of popularity is emotions, while facts are much further down the list. That is why it is best that we don’t use someone’s popularity to determine how successful they were in their position.
Why? What’s wrong with questioning the matter? This seems like a variant of the logical fallacy of arguing from authority.
I’m not saying there aren’t good reasons, but why should we just accept it without more information?
For me, the simple answer that the Clintons have been part of their community in a helpful way that has earned their trust is enough. But there are plenty of people who have written about this topic extensively. If you want more information, look it up. Or find someone involved in AA politics and ask. The important point, though, is that you have to assume that they are smart, sophisticated people who know their own history and needs, and believe them.
Your response raises the whole issue of reality versus perception. And there are plenty of people who have written about this as well. Feel free to look it up.
Making assumptions about any group is generally a bad idea. I find that most US voters, across all groups, are far from “smart, sophisticated people who know their own history and needs”.
You have every right to hold your countrymen in contempt. I doubt it is a good way to get their vote, though. I choose to see the best in people.
Fair enough. But I feel it is worse to try and see the best in people when the track record clearly shows otherwise.
Hope is for suckers.
A movement which dislikes American voters will never become able to politically persuade millions of people for whom they feel contempt.
We need a better plan.
Interesting phrasing. ‘Politically persuade’.
That might be why many ‘revolutions’ in history resort to violence. Contempt for the general populace, so an inability to politically persuade.
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Doubtful; many revolutions occur because those who hold the reigns of power refuse to relinquish them.
There are exceptions, but the bulk of history does not support your statement.
But then again, I’m not sure why you have revolutions in quotation marks…unless you are trying to include other acts of mass violence that are not really revolutions.
I’m open to suggestions. So far, I’ve not seen any that really address the core issue of mass disengagement by millions of voters. This election cycle has certainly done nothing to resolve this issue.
Until that is fixed, no amount of hopeful thoughts or words will change the situation.
There are many things helping create voter disengagement in the United States. Forcing workers into having to keep working over 40 hours a week to live at all decently, or forcing workers to live indecently if they are unable to secure that number of jobs/work hours, is part of it. When you’re barely/not successfully scraping by, there’s little to no time or motivation for most to stay informed. Parents who are in this circumstance have little time to support the education of their children, which helps create and deepen multi-generational poverty.
These are the people we most need at the polls. It would be good if both the media and cultural atmosphere helped them understand the differences between the Parties’ policy platforms, and how legislative and judicial processes work. Unfortunately, the media prioritizes controversy and horse race coverage, along with Both Sides Do Itism. Too many citizens on each side of the political spectrum join them in each and every one of these predilections, particularly the last. That creates misunderstandings which lead to cynicism which lead to even greater levels of disengagement.
For example, a person hanging out at the Frog Pond might believe that the Democratic Party was the one which sought to bring obscene amounts of money into political campaigns. That is and remains exactly the opposite of the truth, but that fact is often obscured here and elsewhere.
I think the problem that crops up in situations like this is that most people don’t involve themselves in “questioning the matter,” they involve themselves in telling people who do not share their political views that they are wrong.
It’s particularly galling for people to be told that their own political class is wrong. For example, I find myself thinking these days that the book “What’s The Matter With Kansas” has almost certainly hurt the Democratic Party in Kansas and other States with similar demographics and social/economical views.
People often take direct critiques of their political views very personally. As we have seen here, almost no one is willing to easily accept having their “matter” questioned these days.
Are you saying that a book published in 2004 caused the Republicans to take over the state of Kansas from the Democrats? Kansas has been strongly Republican for decades. The last time Kansas voted for a Democratic president was in the Lyndon Johnson landslide of 1964. It took a little longer for other Democrats to go by the wayside there. Oklahoma is very similar and the same thing happened to that state.
That was his point of Frank’s analysis. Why were Kansans voting for a Republican Party whose platform worked against their economic interests?
What I’m suggesting is that it’s hard to get people to change their views and their votes by attempting to persuade them in ways which can be viewed as patronizing. Frank called the voters of the State out. I concede he also did some work to call out Democrats and others who he claimed shared responsibility for the ever deepening shade of red the region was in, but, still, he made Kansas and its neighbors famous in his critique of them.
The re-elections of Governor Brownback and other failures in the region suggest that Frank’s advice to Kansans and others has not been part of a winning recipe. I’m not saying his book was anything other than a small factor, but I don’t see evidence that it helped.
OK, I see what you mean now. Frank’s book was good in that it provided a framework for the problem. You’re right and Kansas et al has not changed, although you wonder about people living there. They are having some serious issues with their trickle-down economics. How do you get people to quit voting against their interests? Dems have to get back to their FDR roots, work to reduce income inequality, push campaign finance reform, work on climate change, run away from Goldmachs Sachs, and preserve civil liberties. They’d be winners. In the meantime, who knows? It’s disturbing. The Democratic party has changed so much since I first voted (Govern in 1972). My Republican cousin says the same thing about her party. She’s been an independent since Reagan.
(McGovern in 1972). It’s late.
Well, McGovern got utterly smashed. Along with our mediocre to bad run of Presidential and Congressional elections in relative terms from 1966 thru 1990, interrupted only by Watergate, this is evidence that the American public didn’t share our preference for the policy planks of the Democratic Party in previous decades.
Keep in mind that while the Party achieved many things in those years, there were a number of things left undone. Health care reform and more equal rights for women were chief among them.
There’s this idea frequently posited here that if our Democratic Party candidates ran with economic populism and deeper investment in social welfare programs, they’d be smash winners in their elections. Our elections simply haven’t borne that out. The majority Democrats in the three Congresses which piled up by far the best liberal accomplishments since 1964 were severely punished in their next elections.
Many here view our biggest problem as corrupt Democrats, when there is much greater evidence that the American voters have not been firmly sold on supporting a leftist agenda.
(1) Nixon was an incumbent president and there was a little war going on in Southeast Asia. Afterall, he did promise to end the war during his first term, but…Tough to counter these conditions and then there were the dirty tricks. I sure didn’t see the millions of people that voted for Nixon demonstrating against the impeachment proceedings.
If you look at candidate Barack Obama, people saw the promise of a more Progressive agenda, and he won in a landslide. The Democrats rejected HRC in the primary and the people rejected the Republicans in 2008. How can you explain that? People wanted change and hoped they were getting it. I rest my case.
Finally, I get rankled with the term “leftist agenda.”
What does that even mean? The term is really outmoded, yet some people still attempt to use it pejoratively. FDR, godfather of the 20th century Democratic party, was called a socialist and a communist. Here’s President Obama verifying that. Obama should know, since he was called the same names.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/sep/22/barack-obama/obama-roosevelt-socialis
t-communist/
I don’t use the term “leftist agenda” pejoratively. I’m a leftist; you and essentially everyone here is as well. Our discussions here clearly identify that we have a generally shared agenda of governmental policies which regulate our lives so that the broad swath of Americans are able to share in the great prosperity of our nation and are protected from abuse. We also want our government to interact with other nations in ways which makes the United States good global citizens.
President Obama has made a sincere effort to implement and pass his campaign promises. He didn’t run on single payer, he didn’t run on prosecuting President Bush or jailing Wall Street executives. Barack has governed as a progressive who had his legislative sails trimmed by the electorate which abandoned him and the Congress which piled up the greatest progressive accomplishments since the Johnson Administration in the 2010 election. The voters took away the President’s ability to work with the House to continue to pass a liberal agenda.
The chief challenge for liberalism in recent decades has been that the American electorate is not consistently in support of it. We appear to have put together a durable coalition to win Presidential elections, which will help us with the redistricting process next decade. But until our coalition, not just the Democratic Party, cracks the code to re-establish higher midterm turnout levels, this will remain a challenge.
Er, history already being rewritten? Did Obama run on two tiers of justice?
Bracing for a Backlash Over Wall Street Bailouts
“…The danger, aides said, is that if he were to become identified as an advocate for the banks and Wall Street, people could take out their anger on him.
“The change now is you have a free-floating economic anxiety that has expressed itself in a kind of lashing out at those being bailed out and people who are bailing out,” Michael Kazin, a professor at Georgetown University who has written extensively on populism. “There’s not really a sense of what the solution is.””
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/16/us/politics/16assess.html?_r=0
Three Rich Treasury Secretaries Laugh It Up Over Income Inequality
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/geithner-rubin-paulson-income-inequality_us_55e9eabde4b093be51bb
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Dear Wall Street, this is why the people are angry
“In 2008, the American people were told that if they didn’t bail out the banks, their way of life would never be the same. In no uncertain terms, our leaders told us anything short of saving these insolvent banks would result in a depression to the American public. We had to do it!
We bailed out Wall Street to avoid Depression, but three years later, millions of Americans are in a living hell. This is why they’re enraged, this why they’re assembling, this is why they hate you. Why for the first time in 50 years, the people are coming out in the streets and they’re saying, “Enough.””
http://www.marketplace.org/2011/10/14/business/occupy-wall-st/dear-wall-street-why-people-are-angry
The many provisions of Dodd-Frank are certainly a part of the history, correct? The Law is by far the most substantial set of new regulations placed on financial institutions since the FDR Administration.
I challenge your main point that Obama has made sincere efforts to implement his camping promises. The core promise, while admittedly vague, was “hope and change”. He utterly failed in this respect. No systemic changes have been made, or even attempted, by his administration.
Obama was, and is, a centrist DNCer. He is not a progressive / liberal, so please stop trying to cast him in such a light.
Name the Presidents who had a greater set of liberal/progressive accomplishments. If you’re willing to be real in your considerations, you’ll have a very, very short list, particularly given the many overwhelming challenges our nation faced when President Obama took office, and the historically extreme levels of obstruction he faced from the Legislative and Judicial branches.
Maybe that’s a more sensible way to classify President Obama in the liberal/centrist/conservative spectrum than the “hope and change” message, which was not a campaign promise.
How would voters ever know what is causing their problems unless studies of the impacts of various political choices are published.
That book did wake educators up to the fundamental Christians efforts to take over school boards for their purposes.
It is just like never allowing gun statistics to ever be measured. It protects YOUR position.
Yes, it’s better to have the measured and anecdotal results of policies reported. It’s better that Frank and Ehrenreich and others got their books published and did a lot of work to publicize them. These books are not the equivalent of the latest Ann Coulter screed.
Unfortunately, these and other reportings, along with voters’ personal experiences, have not resonated in ways which have helped us turn people out to turn back the conservative tide in every election. I think there may be ways that Frank is to conservatives as Coulter is to liberals. That would be a deeply unfair way to view Frank, but we can see that conservative voters have shown disinterest in tying fairness with politics.
I’m asking people to consider the possibility that our challenges with the American electorate goes deeper than saying “The Democratic Party and almost everyone in it sucks!” and calling it a day.
Even how we collect statistical data can be manipulated.
http://glineq.blogspot.com/2016/04/should-we-reconsider-how-we-collect.html
So what about the black people who have stood for him? Do their views no longer count?
I hate it when people talk in absolutes when discussing groups of people.
Of course they count. Just not in large enough numbers to win.
But that is not what rikyrah was talking about. It wasn’t about winning or losing, but referring to a whole group of people in monolithic, absolutist terms.
That is what I have an issue with.
Rikyrah was talking about how a politician can better connect with a community. Since there is no way to speak to three hundred million Americans individually, there is no choice but to message to groups. Not everyone in any group will respond to any particular message, but that doesn’t make it good to ignore the overall identity of the group you are trying to reach
If that is what Rikyrah was talking about then Rikyrah needs to avoid using absolutes. Especially since your third sentence is at odds with one of this posters keys points.
Many of today’s youth are woefully uninformed. Or at best, shallowly informed. General knowledge of geography, history and science is scant, even among students in the undergraduate upper division of universities or, sad to say, graduate level. I know, because that’s where I ended my career in education, which spanned over 40 years.