One of the more persistent assumptions about present-day presidential elections is that they are primarily base elections. One way of expressing what this means is simply to quote from a David Atkins piece from this past weekend.
General elections are won by turning out the people who already agree with you ideologically, but only show up to vote every other election when they really feel inspired to, but otherwise feel that politics is a waste of time that doesn’t change anything dramatically [or] affect their daily lives.
Another way of phrasing this is that presidential elections are won by motivating the people in your base who need some external motivation to show up and vote. You can do this by getting them excited or you can do it by making them afraid or you can do it by making personal contact with them, or some combination, but you’re really not trying to persuade anyone to change their ideological point of view.
I think if you look at the last four presidential elections, you can take this analysis and plug it in to each of them individually to see how the parties performed. And I think this has some explanatory power.
Going back to 2000, the election was so close that you can plausibly argue that turning any of these dials just slightly could have changed the outcome. I mean, setting aside the fatal design of the Palm Beach County butterfly ballot, and the votes cast for Ralph Nader, and the strategies employed in the recount, and the Supreme Court’s decision to intervene decisively on Bush’s side, it’s possible to envision Gore winning simply by being a little more exciting or by instilling a little more fear in Democrats or by having done a slightly better job of voter contact. As is always the case when an incumbent president is leaving after eight years, the opposing party was more motivated to vote in 2000, and Gore needed to do just a little more to counteract that.
In 2004, it’s easy to see that the Republicans did an outstanding job of getting out their base in Ohio, and that turned out to be decisive. This was done in part by using the threat of gay marriage as a cudgel that aroused fear in social conservatives. Anti-gay measures were placed on the ballot, and that alone may have made the difference.
The two Obama elections were a bit different from the two Bush elections, especially the first one in 2008. In 2008, Barack Obama did a good job of actually converting many Republicans. You could see this most visibly in some of the endorsements he got from people like Colin Powell, and the Eisenhower grandkids, and William F. Buckley’s son. But the phenomenon was much more widespread, as the Bush administration ended so ignominiously that it was impossible for many people to ignore its failures. McCain and Palin were also poor campaigners whose performance was hard to defend. In the end, I’d argue that Obama’s superior organization and voter contact wound up padding his victory by adding some states, like Indiana and North Carolina, to his column, but he mainly won by winning the argument and not simply by better mobilizing a preexisting base.
When he sought reelection in 2012, it was more of a reversion to the 2000 and 2004 style election, only this time with the Democrat coming out on top. The main difference was that the election wasn’t nearly as close as the earlier ones were, but that was partly explained by Romney doing a comparatively poor job of motivating his base.
In all of these elections, though, the loser was able to top 45% of the vote. McCain-Palin did the worst, managing only 45.63%, and that looks to a lot of people like a hard floor.
But is it really a hard floor?
Think about when we began talking about Red States and Blue States. That dichotomy wouldn’t have made any sense in the 1980’s. New Jersey voted for Poppy Bush in 1988. In 1984, Reagan won 49 states, losing only Minnesota and the District of Columbia.
In a way, it’s unfortunate that Stanley Greenberg profiled the Democrats of Macomb County, Michigan that year, dubbing them Reagan Democrats. It’s a shame not because it was bad analysis. It was insightful analysis that still has explanatory power today. But it wasn’t just socially conservative, patriotic autoworkers who rejected Walter Mondale and the Democratic Party in 1984. It was the people of Massachusetts and Rhode Island, perhaps the two most reliably Democratic states not named Hawai’i.
Whatever you thought about him or think about him in retrospect, Ronald Reagan won the argument against the Democrats in 1980 and, especially, in 1984. He didn’t win by exciting more preexisting Republicans, and he didn’t win simply by making people afraid of his opponents. He won by creating Republicans who had previously been Democrats, and not just among white working class union voters. He also won the youth vote, with reverberations that are still being felt today.
Now, some people will argue that things are different today. The parties are more ideologically stable and predictable, and voters are much less likely to split their tickets. The way people get their news is different, with more folks getting a steady supply of right-wing ideology and little else. Demographics have changed, too, and populations have sorted. These factors, in combination, could provide a higher floor for each party so that they can lose the argument and still be assured of getting somewhere in the neighborhood of 45% of the vote.
I don’t discount that argument at all. I think it would be very hard for anyone to win 49 states in our current political environment, no matter how obviously superior they were or how blatantly incompetent their opponent. But that doesn’t mean that every general election is a base election. And I suspect, although it is not yet certain, that 2016 will not be a base election.
The way I like to envision this is as if the two parties are like tectonic plates. If you think about the San Andreas Fault, it’s made of a Pacific Plate and a North American plate that are locked together. Most of the time, the intersection is stable. When the pressure builds up sufficiently, there can be some slippage along the fault line, but this usually only moves things an inch or two at a time. Once in a while, though, and precisely when is hard to predict, there is enough pressure built up to cause a major slippage and a large earthquake.
Back in the 1960’s through the 1980’s, the plates weren’t really locked at all, but were gliding all over the place as the parties did a slow motion realignment. But, starting in the 1990’s, they melded together and we’ve been in this 45-45 political universe ever since.
When you look at the gridlock in Congress and the resulting dissatisfaction of the American electorate, this is analogous to the pressure that builds up in a stable system.
I don’t want to take this analogy beyond where it can go, but what’s happened in the Republican Party with the nomination of Donald Trump is clearly a sign of weakening. For these two plates to stay stable, they need to maintain roughly equal strength, and if one them starts to crumble, there should be the possibility (even the likelihood) of major slippage along the fault line. And that’s when a political earthquake can happen.
I’ve been looking for signs of this for a couple of years now, long before Trump came onto the scene. And I’ve identified a lot of warning signs along the way, some of which have already resulted in some significant quakes like Eric Cantor losing a primary and John Boehner giving up the Speaker’s gavel.
So, in summary, I am not convinced that this election will be won by “turning out the people who already agree with you ideologically.” I think there is a strong possibility that this election will be won more decisively than any election since 1988. But, like predicting earthquakes, this is an imprecise science. The quake I’m seeing could come in 2020. The plates could slip in the opposite direction from what I’m expecting. After all, there are weaknesses and fissures developing on the Democrats’ side, too.
What I feel confident about is that the pressure has built up to such a degree that a major quake is in our near future. Gridlock cannot stand forever without one side winning the argument with the American people.
Interesting hypothesis, Boo. I’m not sure that I agree, especially as Trump begins to rally more “traditional” Republicans to his cause while simultaneously adopting larger and larger portions of the Republican platform. I suppose he could do all of these conventional and get walloped, and that would validate your theory. But we’ve got some time to go.
Speaking of which, Sam Wang has an interesting note about the predictive power of polls throughout the election season. The short version is that head-to-head polls taken in February are more predictive than those taken in May or June.
Yes, as predicted, they are piling on board.
But as time goes on and Trump says stupid stuff, they will constantly get asked ‘do you agree with him that Mexicans are ——?’ or some other subject. Sure, Trump can avoid this by being very very disciplined, but who really expects that? And we can only hope (well some of us, because some here are voting for Trump) he has influence over the republican convention and brings his usual taste and style. Maybe he can get the crowd give him the pledge. What a visual that would be. Memes for everyone!
Trump is now the leader of the Republican Party. He owns every person that jumps aboard. And he will treat them just like he treats Christie……..not well.
And remember…every time someone here says they will vote for Trump? That means they agree with him, including that Mexicans are rapists and that Muslims should not be allowed to immigrate.
.
I dislike using stereotypes, but the Republicans are the Daddy party–Republicans will vote Republican because they have firm support. This means a vote for Trump. Democrats are the Mommy party–they are less rigid. This means a vote for ?
I don’t think that’s a helpful stereotype. Although there are no elected Republicans who are anything like moderates, there are a nontrivial number of moderate Republican voters: in favor of smaller government, fiscally conservative, socially moderate or liberal, not racist. I don’t see any reason to believe they’ll automatically vote for Trump.
I’m not sure what will actually happen, but Martin’s analysis seems sharp.
Don’t know about that. There are Republicans in my extended family who match your description, and they always vote Republican. Always. I’m not sure what they think: do they imagine that if all the socially regressive wingnut policies are enacted that they’ll somehow be exempt or able to make an end run around them? I’m not referring here to wealthy people.
It’s simple,
They vote for whom they identify with, and agree with.
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identify is probably more likely and mostly about tribe unfortunately
Sorry to disagree, but Governor Baker in Massachusetts is a socially liberal and fiscally moderate Republican.
He’s also stated publicly that he doesn’t intend to vote for either Trump or Clinton. I can’t see him going either Libertarian or Green; I suspect he’ll leave that part of the ballot blank.
I could see him going Libertarian since former Gov. Weld is probably going to be their VP.
Reagan did not win the youth vote in 1980.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_1980#Voter_demographics
The youth vote was evenly split and 11% went for Anderson, so the boomers were still trending liberal, contrary to the myth that has been retroactively constructed. What Reagan did was win the over-30 vote by huge margins.
I agree this is unlikely to be a simple base election, because Trump doesn’t fit into the Republican mold. I believe the dispute with Ryan is actually about entitlements, for example.
Nonetheless, the fact that he is doing well at the moment reflects the fact that the Republicans have settled on their candidate, whereas the Democrats have not. I don’t mean Sanders can plausibly win at this point. But if everyone were voting now instead of earlier, he would have a shot, at least at pledged delegates. So the Dems are still divided.
PS Among Gen X liberals, the notion that the boomers gave us Reagan, when the boomers were the only group that didn’t vote for him, seems to be foundational.
among Gen X, blaming the boomers for everything they don’t like seems to be foundational.
Yes, I’ve noticed that.
I’m a white male boomer, Sanders supporter. ONE OUT OF THREE white male voters over 60 support Sanders.
The corresponding figure for white females is just over one quarter.
Compare that with 37% of blacks 29 and younger that support Sanders.
None of this is chickenfeed.
http://www.vox.com/2016/4/20/11466376/bernie-sanders-future-democrats
The young Boomers were their parent’s generation. The last of the Silent Generation were their older parents. Of course, Boomers get the blame. For a whole lot of families, the 1970s were a disaster economically or in terms of family stability as the sexual revolution and feminist revolution hit at the same time and beneath the surface also the coming out of post-Stonewall gays. There was a huge amount of chaos and drama for kids to live through; a lot of them sprung back to “traditional values” in a vain attempt to find peace and order. Grandpa Reagan thus appealed to them.
If what you’re saying is that Reagan rode a reaction against social changes partly induced by the boomers, I would agree. That’s different from saying boomers are responsible for him in the sense of supporting him. In that sense, one could say that MLK is “responsible” for George Wallace. One can infer a cause and effect, but it is a perverse way to think of political responsibility.
Tracking Boomer voting isn’t easy. In ’72, those born 1943 to 1954 only favored Nixon by four points whereas those born before ’43 favored Nixon by more than thirty points. In 1976 through 1984, the voting behavior of younger Boomers was different from that of older Boomers.
In ’76, the 18 to 21 years old favored Ford 51% to 49%. Those 22 to 29 (born 1947 to 1954) favored Carter 56% to 44%. That’s a significant difference.
1980 is difficult to evaluate because of the Anderson factor. All that can be said is that those born before 1950 elected Reagan.
In ’84, we can see that those born 1960 to ’66 (the last of Boomer and beginning of X) went for Reagan 61% to 39%, the 1955-59 age cohort were a little less into Ronnie, 57% to 43%, and the older Boomers were lumped in with those born in the decade before and who had strongly favored Nixon.
So, while Boomers, particularly younger Boomers have some responsibility for electing and reelecting Reagan, it was the generations before Boomers that made it happen for both Nixon and Reagan.
I think a lot of study of these things conclude that those born, like me, in the early sixties, while formally part of the demographic “boom”, are not the same generation in their attitudes and politics and are closer to the Gen Xers, so they are either called Xers or a mini-generation like Jones. Which makes sense – boomer is just a label for what seems like relatively coherent attitudes, and the birth rate at the time does not seem a decisive factor on that. You see this with Obama who said he thought of his mother but not himself as a boomer. Defined by the “boom”, this is simply false on both counts, but looking at where the cohesion in attitudes is it makes sense. After all, there’s no reason the fact that the media chose to label this generation in terms of birthrate should be decisive.
So in 84, that means all generations went for Ronnie, but Joneses, Xers, and those significantly older than boomers by margins above average (which was 59 to 41). The boomers by margins lower than average. I would not say that those who were 30-49 in 84 were silents with which boomers were folded in, but rather the reverse: numerically, it’s about ten years each, but boomers had to be the majority of that group, because the birthrate in WW2 and the late depression was quite low and then exploded. The birthrate may not determine attitudes, but it does determine numbers.
I haven’t searched exhaustively for statistics, but consider these maps.
In 2000: Democrats win the youth popular vote in 22 states, Republicans in 26.
In 2008: Democrats win the youth popular vote in 39 states, Republicans in 8.
On a purely anecdotal level, I distinctly recall starting a job at the campus of a large state university in 1984 and being aghast at the amount of overt support for Reagan that undergraduates displayed.
Yeah, but he won it big time in 1984: http://ropercenter.cornell.edu/polls/us-elections/how-groups-voted/how-groups-voted-1984/
He swept the board in 84. If everyone voted for him, it was not a specific characteristic of boomers. The group he carried by a below average margin, though, was 25-49, mostly boomers with the tail end of the silents. The 18-24s that year were Joneses and the first proper Xers, and he carried those groups by an above average margin.
Source
http://ropercenter.cornell.edu/polls/us-elections/how-groups-voted/how-groups-voted-1984/
That was a bit sloppy of me. I didn’t originally intend to include 1980 in that sentence, and when I added it, I introduced a conflation on the youth vote that wasn’t intended.
He didn’t win the youth vote by an above-average margin in 84 either, save the extreme youth vote, which was small, so I’m not seeing the conclusion you draw.
Be that as it may, the young voters who went to the polls for Reagan are still a Republican cohort.
Can one side win the argument if lots of people hate both arguments being made?
I think I agree with your pressure theory in my own way. Similar thinking is the root of why I have always maintained that I have more faith in Bernie beating Trump than HRC. I don’t think HRC is capable of operating in something besides a base election mode while Bernie has had no choice but to try and operate in a win-the-argument mode.
Well yes.
But Sanders is not going to be the nominee. Sorry, but even he knows this.
And you will eventually be left with a choice,
The racist narcissist
Or
The status quo.
.
Jill Stein.
I will not be voting for the Green Party. I can say that with complete confidence.
If you’re going to pick someone who can’t win anything, might as well go big and pick Space Jesus/Zombie Washington.
Yup, in the end I’ll likely leave it blank.
Maybe I’d think differently if I lived in a state that didn’t hate Trump with a firey passion but RUBIO crushed him in the caucus. That says a lot about how likely Trump is to win here.
That is the truest thing I’ve read on the internets.
Me for the status quo.
Not the most electrifying campaign motto, though.
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…there are plenty of places on Earth where citizens would kill to have a choice like that.
Yep.
A choice between Trump and Santorum is what some places have.
.
And that’s if you even get a choice for too many folks.
President for Life does have rational origins.
You write:
Yup, that’s about it.
Caught between a rock and a soft, squishy place.
Sigh…
AG
Thanks for your comment. Why do you think Clinton would be unable to persuade, for example, Republicans who care about foreign policy, or Wall St. Republicans to vote for her?
It’s not so much that she can’t (though I tend to think those groups would stay home) but that number of republicans that put foreign policy as their make or break decision is quite small and of those, Trump can/has made inroads on the ones who are hardcore Muslim haters and who have repeatedly expressed admiration for Putin. Wall Street also sees Trump as one of their own to an extent, preventing any stampede en masse.
Speaking of admiration for Putin, I can’t help drawing a comparison between Trump and Chechnya strongman leader Ramzan Kadyrov.
All of this worrisome pontificating about ‘what’s going to happen” is so useless in the current, totally new political environment. Nothing remotely like Trump has ever happened in national politics and neither has anything like HRC.
Trump is a revolution all by himself…the first “amateur” pol to run for president ever. No elected experience whatsoever. And HRC? The first woman to run for president, the first spouse of a former president, the first pol to run for president with extensive, hands-on experience in both the executive and congressional areas of the federal government and…at least in my view…one of the least talented campaigners ever. All wonk, no honk..plus some really terrifying baggage and a bad, barely controlled temper. And…unless I miss my guess there has never been a presidential election where the total number of years on earth of both candidates tops 140. (I could be wrong about that last one but I do not have time for a definitive Google trek.)
Also…I believe that the disapproval rating for the federal government and its denizens nationwide has never, ever been this low. Deservedly so.
You write:
And I think that Trump’s rise to power alone disqualifies much “explanatory power” about any previous elections.
Mix in the (entirely new this time around) complexion of the media…now totally dominated by online methods of communication including Twitter and Facebook…and if you include those giants plus the ease of searching for facts and opinions online instead of just staring at a TV station or newspaper/mag that represents your own particular mindset, the first truly interactive political system on any level since the old (small town) town meetings in the U.S.
Ever.
And you think that you can somehow predict what is going to happen?
All bets are off, Booman.
It’s a…not so brave, unfortunately…new world.
What a choice!!!
Caliban or the Wicked Witch of The West Wing?
Hmmmmm…???
Who could have predicted this predicament back in early summer, 2015?
Oh.
Wait!!!
Sorry…
Watch.
AG
>>the first “amateur” pol to run for president ever. No elected experience whatsoever.
simply untrue.
at least two “no elected experience” candidates have BEEN president, and just in my memory we’ve seen Ross Perot and Ralph Nader run.
>>The first woman to run for president,
also simply untrue.
Eisenhower…a military politician of the first order. Similar experience in many ways, and as Supreme Commander of the Allied Forces in Europe during W.W. II he was a fiunctioning part of the federal gov’t as far as I am concerned. Who’s the other one? Hoover? I stand corrected on that one.
Yes, Ross Perot and Ralph Nader “ran.” I should have been clearer. “Managed to get nominated by a major party” would have been better, although all of the horses are not yet into or out of the barn quite yet.
AG
P.S. Also, Hoover was an active participant in the federal government well before his election. A political insider, for sure.
My point was…and remains…that a total outsider like Trump has never before managed to get into a position where he seriously threatens to become president as the nominated candidate of a major party. I stand by that idea, no matter how awkwardly I may have initially presented it.
i meant Grant for the other one, forgot Hoover.
and I think Taylor was another general who had never run for office.
AG, Eisenhower’s war time experience in WW2 isn’t close to the experience of running for office. He didn’t need to campaign on his ideas to the public, he needed the best advice how to apply military pressure at the correct places to break the German will, manufacturing prowess, and then military.
A military campaign has little in common with a political campaign even though the press tries to use similar terminology for both.
The first if brute physical force when it comes down to it, even though there is psychological ops and some political give and take when targets and campaigns are planned.
The second is mostly a give and take where the psych-ops are as important in campaign adds. The political domi9nates and the brute physical is to be avoided for the most part in the USA.
Eisenhower was a masterful politician. He was a back room deal maker well before his entrance into so-called “peacetime” politics. That’s how he got to the position of Supreme Commander in the first place. Scratching backs, tickling massive egos and only lowering the boom when absolutely necessary.
Bet on it.
AG
BY your definition so IS trump.
trump fits this to a T
they both achieved their objective
NYC realestate?
Worked very well in that environment …..among others while assembling his billion dollar empire
PS trump has been considering running for the white house since 1988.
Donald Trump to Oprah in 1988: I’d win president – Business Insider
He also considered it in 2000 and 2012 with the media speculating then also.
Donald Trump and White House bids: A long history of not running
Probably why many didn’t believe he would actually take the plunge this time. He’s probably the only modern candidate who has looked at ways of running for 28 years before he actually too the plunge.
28 years …. longer than any of the other outsiders.
28 years before 1952, Eisenhower was a major in the US Army, certainly not considering how he would cut a path to the white house.
Grant 28 years before 1868 was a cadet at U.S. Military Academy at West Point, probably not scheming how to take over a political party that didn’t even exist at the time.
Hoover 28 years before 1928 was trying to survive Boxer Rebellion in Tianjin China in June 1900, with his family. Probably not spending tine thinking of ways to capture the white house then either.
Hell hillary has only been working actively for it for 16 years, before ’92 her scheme was to get Bill there.
Not to toot my own horn…I do that for a living, only it’s a real horn…but check out the continuing, eyes-wide-shut defensive posturing of the leftinesses regarding trump 6 months after I wrote the above!!!
And yet here y’all still are…most of you…up to your necks in de Nile.
WTFU.
Y’all are “Democrats???”
Better get busy. HRC’s gonna need all the help she can muster.
Hint, hint.
AG
Sorry, not seeing how another 4 yrs of status quo releases any pressure. Do you dream that more 1980s policies will improve the economy? Is that not the root source–it usually is, underneath all the distractions.
I think the theory is this: one plate crumbles, because it’s composed entirely of Velveeta and testosterone, and the other plate, simply by virtue of being intact, Richters to victory.
It gets a little shaky, and everyone panics, but eventually stability comes back and everyone relaxes.
.
If the Democratic party can be left standing as the Republican party crumbles into pieces, that is when a left-wing party can emerge, snag all of the real left-wing Democrats, leaving the status-quo “establishment”, “conservative” party as the Democratic party.
Imagine if the Democratic party platform was the conservative consensus.
The left wing always has, and always will, have to drag the political status quo to the left.
It’s basically tug of war, and first things first, the people on the left side of the rope need to outlast the people on the right side of the rope.
After the right side collapses, we can start a new game, where the sane conservatives known as democrats can tug from the right side of the rope, and we can start tugging from the left side.
I think that’s essentially what will happen, with a minor distinction. I think once the super-conservatives have collapsed, the moderately conservative independents and Dems will return to the GOP, where they actually belong, leaving the Democrats as the more liberal party again. Either way, we have to hold the left together as the right collapses.
Carter lost in ’80 because of Iran and the economy. He had a 32-55 approval rating.
Reagan won in ’84 because the economy recovered.
On the eve of the election in 1984 he an approval rating of 58-33. He got 60%.
I am not really all that convinced much else was at play in either election other than a recession and a recovery (with the exception of the South).
In general people greatly overrate the role of ideology. But after the fact pundits will try to apply ideological meaning.
One major ideological shift. Fiscal policy became less attractive and monetary policy was seen as the only legitimate government intervention.
Another. Conservatives came out of the dark and started punishing liberals with the same stigma they perceived they had been subjected to since the New Deal. Of course, they never admitted that Coolidge and Hoover botched conservatism royally in the 1920s and that they should have then adopted another more pragmatic ideology.
BTW, the New Deal is as close to an authentic “third way” as the US will ever come.
New Deal is as close to an authentic “third way” as the US SHOULD ever come.
Reagan’s tax cuts without off setting spending cuts was Keynes in action.
Meh. Long read on the new and improved market version of Keynes. This Stockman post outlined the difference between fiscal Keynes and Milton F’s market Keynes.
“The only difference was that Keynes was originally and primarily a fiscalist, whereas Friedman had seized upon open market operations by the central bank as the route to optimum aggregate demand and national income.
Under their auspices, the Fed was soon gorging on the Treasury’s debt emissions, thereby alleviating the inconvenience of funding more government with more taxes.”
http://davidstockmanscontracorner.com/just-another-republican-keynesian/
I wonder how Gary Johnson fits into the overall picture. He did poll at 10% in the Fox Poll, that was highly questionable obviously.
I don’t think there’s anything left on the Libertarian platform to appeal to liberals since Democrats are for the most part on board with loosening marijuana laws and have been doing so across the country.
I’m still interested (and frightened) about Trump advocating for the complete legality of cannabis.
I mean, not that I’d ever vote for a Strongman like Trump, but I think that would be the Trump killshot on America.
Hell, that is half the poorest’s economy in some of those states–small growers.
let’s hope he’s not reading this
that would wake up a big chunk of the uncommitted voters, though pissing off old law-n-order repubs.
The earthquake is coming this year but it’s not on the Republican side but on what you grudgingly call “weaknesses and fissures developing on the Democrats’ side, too.” It’s not the Republican Party losing. It’s the Republican Establishment that’s losing. After the Republican Establishment pushed the Republican Party into an almost certain losing position for any national election they suddenly find themselves with an anti-establishment candidate with an 11 point gain since March already in a dead heat with the presumptive Democratic Establishment nominee. That’s not the big one yet but it’s one hell of a tremor.
Forgive me for quoting Maureen Dowd but even a blind squirrel can sometimes find the acorn:
“Hillary can’t generate excitement on her own so she is relying on fear of Trump to get her into the White House. And Trump is relying on fear of everything to get him into the White House.”
That `everything’ includes the fear of Hillary but not by the Republicans since they already hate, well, all Clintons. The fear of Hillary is on the Democratic side. Why is that? How will fear of Hillary place Donald Trump in the White House?
First we must look at the voters who will decide this election.
Independents are largest voting group by far, larger than the Republicans or the Democrats. They will decide the general election whether you like it or not. Independents hate both parties; that’s why they’re Independents. These people are the dogs that refuse to eat the dog food from either party, not some centrist pool of voters. Given the choice between Trump and Bernie, the Independents break heavily for Bernie; Hillary has little chance with these people.
Identity politics works quite well when you fear your opponent but breaks down when you start to fear your own side. The fear generated by watching the destruction of your own life and the lives of your children by policies created your own party turns fear into anger.
There is no question that the anger or populist open revolt in both parties is being driven by the destruction of the middle class. Blame for that is squarely placed on our trade agreements. This is where neoliberalism has caused both parties to turn their backs on the American workers in favor of the oligarchs. Trump says its “stupid people making stupid deals…I’ll get your jobs back” while Hillary has always been the Queen of every trade deal in sight. They want their jobs back. Which side do you think wins this argument?
The biggest fear of all is which candidate will likely blow up the world, probably the most decisive issue of this election. I think mostly because of the expense, Trump has been a long time critic of us being the policemen of the world. Trump demands others pay or we pull back our military. Pulling back our military does not sound like a hawk. On the other hand, Hillary reminds me of George C. Scott playing the character Patton looking into mirror, after putting on his uniform, preparing to fight the 21st Panzer Division saying, “all my life I’ve wanted to lead a bunch of men in a desperate battle. Today, I get to do just that.” It’s almost certain that if elected Hillary will get us into another war. That issue alone is enough to put Trump over the top.
It’s almost gallows humor to watch the Democratic Establishment professionals know it’s true that pushing Hillary over the finish line will result in losing an otherwise winnable election when they were given the power, rightly or wrongly, to prevent just that from happening.
IMHO your projections are way too biased. You seem to be a better analyst than that, but the real test is retaining those analytical standards when one has a dog in a race.
It’s one thing to have recognized last summer that Trump wasn’t going to crumble and blow away as many Democrats and Republicans were projecting. However, getting that right may not have any relevance to a general election between Trump and HRC. Trump’s primary competition wasn’t battle-tested and none of them put together a strong campaign and fundraising operations.
What do you think of the premise that it is Potomic Republicanism that is crumbling, while the party in the states parties on… Wasn’t the RNC near broke recently?
Corporate and billionaire contributions are going downstream–a lot of opportunities for influence to be gained there. A lot of nullification being litigated.
Actually, it was the DNC that was recently broke.
Personally, I suspect that the GOP elites were willing to throw this presidential election. First, their presidential talent pool was limited to more like Dole/McCain/Romney (that the GOP base hates) and others that are crazy, dumb, and scary. They preferred a candidate that wouldn’t embarrass the party, but sometime the rubes demand a feeding. Second, economic downturns have been hitting every eight (+/- two) years. Better to let HRC have the hot seat. Plus, the GOP can get something out of her.
The GOP elites also recognize the need to reform their party. Bigotry can only be ginned up so many times and those most receptive to it are dying. Current elected Republicans can’t do it b/c they’ll be primaried by a teabagger that is more of what they need to get rid of. Trump could, but not unless or until he had the entire GOP base eating out of his hand.
When I read history I seek out historians I believe are unbiased. I greatly admire historians who can write in an unbiased manner. I have no doubt we as human beings form our biases through the lens of what we believe to be true. Fox News and push polls try to take advantage of this by telling us something that is not true to influence our judgment or bias. They are trying to change how we the world. The best we can do is to try to use all of our experience and education to make our individual decision about what is true, what is true from sources we trust, what to believe from our own research. In the end, our projections reflect our carefully cultivated bias. Bias is not a character flaw for any of us.
The establishment is anxious for us to enter the sheepdog stage. We must forget about what neoliberalism has done to our and our children’s lives. We must forget about the breath taking corruption we have witnessed. We must forget about the danger to blow up the world with a trigger happy Commander in Chief. It’s time to put all that nonsense away and think about unity. It’s time to let Identity Politics take back over. Go Team. I’m just not there yet. Maybe I can never be there again. Truth is truly dangerous.
I was just watching a Bernie rally in California where Bernie told a very large and enthusiastic crowd that if he can win with a large margin in California he will have the momentum to reach the White House. I believe him. Bernie also cited a national poll from just yesterday that has Hillary beating Trump by 3 points, within the margin of error, but Bernie beating Trump by 15 points. Others may need more of these kinds of polls but I believe it’s a trend. I also believe Hillary’s unfavorable ratings will continue to go up, another trend. Based on those beliefs, I project that Hillary’s chances of losing to Trump are much too great for the Democratic Establishment to ignore regardless of how many convention concessions Hillary compels Debbie to make. I do believe they are starting to see the danger so all may not be lost just yet. There is a lot of time and events to occur between now and the convention.
Don’t have a problem with either you or Bernie concluding that the nomination isn’t a done deal. “The math” says the hurdle is higher than Bernie acknowledges, but we’d be fools to claim that “the math” always defines outcomes in social systems. We don’t even know or can’t imagine all the different variables that could come into being in the next two months that could change “the math.”
What I was being critical of was projecting that Trump will beat HRC. The objective and quantifiable data are still too mixed to be predictive. On fav/unfav they’re tied in net unfavorables and appeared to be tied as well on voter preference. For me, the latter is less stable and therefore, I’d be more focused on watching the former over the next six weeks.
Subjective, anecdotal, general mood data is even more elusive than usual. ’08 was a winner for the Democratic nominee almost two years out from the general election. Similarly easy in ’12. ’16 remains in flux, but not known if it’s just a little or a lot.
IMO HRC has numerous problems as a candidate, but so far doubt that the Democratic Party is as close to the brink of crumbling as you and others seem to think. It will hold through November, but if she loses, the equation changes. But institutions don’t implode and it takes time for them to hollow themselves out enough for a crumbling to begin. Contrary to Martin’s fantasies, the GOP isn’t on its deathbed.
The Democratic Party will be in serious trouble if they make a choice that loses an otherwise winnable election. Unless Hillary is nominated and wins the general, the Democratic Establishment will have on their hands lots of corrupt people who just watched a great deal of their money flushed down the toilet with no ROI. If Hillary loses and they decide to shift the blame for that loss to others such as Bernie supporters instead of the Clinton Machine where it belongs, they will become just a right wing party of big money without the big money. If Bernie wins, we don’t need or want their big money or the corrupt people who go with it, time to burn some bridges as TarheelDem would say.
The Democratic Party might not ever crumble but would become irrelevant if a new progressive party not connected to big money were to emerge. If they make the right choice, that new progressive party could be the Democratic Party.
I think you made my point:
“47 percent of registered voters would consider a 3rd party candidate if race is between Clinton and Trump.”
Ralph Nader recently said that it’s too late for any third party attempt that would have any chance of doing anything beyond throwing the election into the House where we all know what would happen. Except for helping the Green Party with federal financing, a third party or non vote is the same as a `let others decide’ vote, in effect, self voter suppression. Bernie tells us in every stump speech what happens when voters don’t vote; Republicans win.
In the absence of a viable third party, a 47 percent registered voter block is a rather large number that should light some hair on fire among the Democratic Establishment. I believe that has already happened as evident with the recent Clinton convention concessions. I would agree with you that overwhelming evidence of a Trump victory has not yet emerged but we are still two months out from when the Democratic Establishment must make that fateful decision.
I hope you agree that a 47 percent registered voter block is a large enough group to decide this election. If 47 percent of registered voters don’t like either candidate in the absence of a viable third party, they are truly undecided voters for whom identity politics no longer works. This means that the election will be decided on the issues. I contend that those two issues are blowing up world and continuing to blow up our jobs with bad trade deals, both issues where Hillary comes up short.
I also agree with you that “contrary to Martin’s fantasies, the GOP isn’t on its deathbed.” Trump is not only lining up his Establishment because they want the Supreme Court, but he’s lining up other factions of extremists as well, such as White Nationalist otherwise lost to the Republican Establishment. Not only is the Republican Party not on its deathbed, it’s getting stronger. This should worry the Democratic Establishment insisting on keeping their weak establishment candidate.
In the light of TarheelDem’s excellent comments, I think Bernie’s nomination and election would be a tectonic shift election because of the failure of the neoliberalism embraced by both parties to deliver a path to a better life for the people.
WLS-TV said this morning that Trump is beating Hillary by 1%. How said that Donald Trump, reality TV star, is the “genuine” candidate in this race. How did he get it? Well, he was the only populist in his Party. Too bad that Democrats have rejected populism for symbolism and right wing economics.
Very well said.Thank you.
He won by creating Republicans who had previously been Democrats — in working class union voters, in youth voters, in Southern and Midwestern farm voters. And there are probably some other segments that you can point to. What was 50.75% – 41.01% in 1980 (489-49) became 58.77% – 40.56% in 1984 (525-13).
The 1964 election was much huger but was shaped by (1) grief for the assassination of JFK and (2) the failure of the modern conservative movement to elect Barry Goldwater as the first re-segregationist candidate. Interestingly, in that race Goldwater carried Arizona and only Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, and South Carolina, none yet having had enforcement of the Voters Rights Act. The Northeast was dominated by Johnson totals between 60% and 70%. Explosive, volcanic, seismic, but in four years it showed it was not tectonic.
The 1932 election was tectonic and in some fashion held for 48 years — 57.41% – 39.65% and 472-59 with the aftershock in 1936 of 60.80% – 36.54% and 523-8, with Alf Landon winning only Vermont and Maine. Roosevelt rocked the Confederacy and Nevada with over 70% of the popular vote (over 80% in the Deep South, and over 90% in Mississippi). Well, you understand what that was all about–one of the few times when whites and blacks (read whites) were happy to vote together. It was the end of a decade-long agricultural depression, not the complete end but with more people working and buying clothes, the farms and the mills were running again and the farms were slowly working their way out of debt.
Which brings up the key point to a tectonic election. A tectonic election occurs when the other party’s ideas and performance are perceived to have failed their promises. In the 1970s, the peace and prosperity that LBJ promised to counter Barry Goldwater failed first to materialize as peace because of the insistence on a victory that was never to be and failed to materialize as prosperity because of spending for war and domestic economy at once created price rises and then inflation. And the Arab states took advantage of that situation by holding oil off the market to pressure Israel, which Carter partially dealt with by concluding the Camp David Treaty and proclaiming a policy of human rights in the American lecturing tradition. In 1979 both peace and prosperity were perceived as failures. The conservative argument was that it was because of liberal polices (you know the litany) that was too free-spending, too big government, and too soft on our enemies. Liberalism had failed and must be scorned. That was the argument that won the day in the 1980s among previous Democrats, Gen-X youth who had experienced personal chaos growing up, and workers who were beginning to see their jobs threatened by exports, not the least the Southern textile workers who had voted so heavily for Roosevelt and their kids who had not made it to the middle class. The perception of failure realigned the tectonic plates; the perception of recovery locked them in.
There will not be a tectonic election again until a party and a candidate makes a clear case that the modern conservative movement, which again promised its way to peace and prosperity, has failed miserably in 36 years. Strangely in this clown car of an election, the Republican Party grassroots has in effect made that argument to itself by abandoning all but the superficial aspects of modern conservative ideology to follow after Trump. Its fragmentation is papered over much as it was at the time of Roosevelt through VP Nixon, after which the key to prosperity became the defeat of communism and the leftist Democrats but erupted in divisive in 1964.
Even Bernie Sanders has not yet come out and said point-blank that the mess of pottage that Barry Goldwater and his successors promised the modern conservative movement has been put into practice and failed despite the repeated assertions of the various Republican movements that the people failed the ideas. Deregulated markets–failed. More and more spending on military weapons without oversight — failed. Larger and larger intelligence and special operations — failed. Letting private enterprise dominate everything — failed. Running government like a business — failed. Cutting spending — failed. Tax cuts — failed. Go right down the line about what the conservatives said they were going to deliver and what happened when by hook or crook of actual votes they did deliver what they said they were going to. Failure after failure after failure.
Why is no party (cough Democrats) making this argument? Because they went down the same path after 1984, They stopped arguing the likely consequences and pointing out the failures. There was an assumption from the rise of Barry Goldwater to George W. Bush to Donald J. Trump that this could not possibly happen.
After Goldwater, the modern conservative movement dug in an fought as if it was an existential war. That, as it turns out, might be one of the main reasons that 52 years later they too have failed.
I’m not sure that a tectonic election can come out of failure alone.
Who exactly are the Republicans who are now going to become Democrats or “Clinton Republicans” or allowing that the impossible is still slightly probable “Sanders Republicans”? Lord knows that the folks from Kansas, Oklahoma, Michigan, Wisconsin, Indiana, North Carolina, and Louisiana should be ready for that, but are they moving in that direction?
Who writes the counterpart of Kevin Philips’s The Emerging Republican Majority that depends on shifts in existing and presumed safe blocks of voters instead of mobilization of new blocks of voters.
Until the 1968 Democratic National Convention, conventional wisdom was the Democrats had the votes of the youthquake and Republicans had only the heavily recruited and organized counterparts of Goldwater youth. Nowhere did Young Americans for Freedom (YAF) show up in the analyses as a major force. Now check out the biographies of some of the major and most controversial figures of the modern conservative movement.
That’s where you start seeing a tectonic shift–outside points of organization that are given access to the party machinery. And then take it over. Only for the Republicans, it was the Silent Generation with their fierce McCarthyism and Nixonian dirty tricks who took over, while the establishment Democrats were ready for the Boomers and shut them right down until they were tamed.
Just look at the ages of the leadership in the Congress. Where are the millennials who are the counter parts of the 1970s Silent Generation politicians? Is there anyone 35 or younger in the House? Who are the ones in state legislatures? What young person wants to run anymore?
If the Democrats want to be that side winning the argument, they jolly well have to make it. Modern conservatism has failed, and this is the way to the future. What’s the alternative “this”?
I just want to single this out…
Even Bernie Sanders has not yet come out and said point-blank that the mess of pottage that Barry Goldwater and his successors promised the modern conservative movement has been put into practice and failed despite the repeated assertions of the various Republican movements that the people failed the ideas. Deregulated markets–failed. More and more spending on military weapons without oversight — failed. Larger and larger intelligence and special operations — failed. Letting private enterprise dominate everything — failed. Running government like a business — failed. Cutting spending — failed. Tax cuts — failed. Go right down the line about what the conservatives said they were going to deliver and what happened when by hook or crook of actual votes they did deliver what they said they were going to. Failure after failure after failure.
Why is no party (cough Democrats) making this argument? Because they went down the same path after 1984…
I think what we may have just seen is Drumpf declaring the Goldwater promises ka-put. So that aspect of these “tectonic” elections actually happened in the primary, not the general. The ‘pressure’ had become so great that the party itself ‘cracked.’ (Single quotes used to suggest lack of comfort with whole plate analogy.)
Who knows? Constancy is not his thing. Wonder what THEIR platform will look like? lol
If trump has any say, written with disappearing ink on rubber, so he can remake it to say what he wants at the time.
“one of the few times when whites and blacks (read whites) were happy to vote together” I disagree with the “read whites” part. Blacks can be racists too. Right now, black Democrats are determined to destroy whites economically by voting for the fascist policies of the Clintons. One of the most disturbing facets of this race has been the rupture of the alliance between progressive whites and black people. it seems that have started with blacks stopping Bernie from talking about Social security. Social Security is “white”. Throughout the campaign attacks on whites particularly white men have escalated. Has the alliance been cemented? SS and minimum wage (see Puerto Rico) are to be cut, with traditional welfare preserved?
And don’t tell me that black people have been hoodwinked by their churches. I’ve worked with enough black people to know that they are far from stupid. if anything, more worldy wise than many whites.
our stars, but in our [Corporate Media].”
I appreciated seeing this, as it hits a long-standing pet peeve of mine, i.e., blaming the victim (here, Gore):
The first part of this is very important and, I think, often overlooked (e.g., by people saying things like “if Gore had only been a better candidate/run a competent campaign . . . “)[, etc.], so I’m glad to see it here.
I realize you’re not promoting that blaming of the victim so much as noting it as “possible to envision”.
But lacking from your otherwise valid list of “dials” is the despicable (and immensely consequential* — and not in a good way!) journalistic malpractice of the Corporate Media in ’99-’00, in which the the Villagers adopted a blatant, active dislike of Gore, then concocted a herd narrative of ridicule and pretending he was a serial liar, including just making up the purported “lies” that they used to promote that chosen narrative. Without the gross distortion by Corporate Media manipulation of this dial, I think none of the others could have sufficed to keep the election otherwise within stealing range.
*Basic decency requires that any accounting of the disastrous consequences of that Corporate Media malpractice begin with the million (+/- a half-million or so) prematurely dead Iraqis it produced. Though the list then goes on and on (and on) from there. It mystifies me that those media perps have somehow found a way to excuse themselves to a point that they can ever sleep at night.
That corporate media still exists, and it it plumping for Trump this year. No matter how much money the Clinton and Democratic committees feed that media, it will not give them a fair shake in the free media because of ownership that bought it pretty much explicitly as a political voice. (Fox is just the most obvious about it because it has made money at propaganda the longest.)
Their weakness is the companies that buy their advertising and the markets those companies seek to serve. The corporation defense is to scale down just to advertisers whose owners agree with their politics. This has restructured the traditional media, which under the power of the internet is scrambling for financial solvency.
It is likely that unless a progressive Democratic billionaire (oxymoron?) buys a progressive oriented media outlet (sorry, MSNBC never was that), Democrats are behind the curve on traditional media unless they become what the media owner wants.
Social media is somewhat different at the moment because there is a greater illusion of being a common carrier on social media. And that is what has allowed Bernie Sanders the ability to organize his campaign so effectively in such a short time and finance it on the go.
Media is so fragmented now that it is not the handicap that Gore found it, but that mitigation of the 2000 situation does not apply uniformly across all demographics. Youth voters and others who rely on media over phones behave differently from those who rely on computers, which behave differently from those who still rely on cable, radio, and broadcast television (fewer than ever).
It is a handicap that can be overcome without paying the ransom that traditional media thinks they are owed for then turning around and betraying paying customers.
In 2016, the best move is to boycott traditional media except for when you want to reach specific of traditional media audiences. A big example would be to working class seniors on increasing Social Security and telling how it gets paid for. Pick the cable outlets that draw the most seniors (ignore Fox).
Where Gore went wrong is with falling into the Gandhi dynamic trap with W. He ignored him; he ridiculed him; he only belatedly fought him on the turf; he lost (or conceded). Carter’s campaign also fell into that pattern with Reagan. And here we go again with Trump.
Let’s not make excuses in advance. We know that the traditional media is biased toward Trump and going to report the election as a self-fulfilling horserace. And they are going to try to maximize their profits by keeping the horse race close. The best strategy is to financially bleed them dry or make Trump pay outrageous sums for promotion. Move the voters under the radar. (That takes some organizational creativity; Democratic consultants can muster that when needed, can’t they, or have they gotten too fat and lazy?)
The other way to approach the media is to use not often patronized local media to deliver your message in areas where Democrats are seldom seen. Obama used this quite successfully in some states.
The media is part of the environment that you figure out how to use, even if a foil (as Ronald Reagan often did).
First item of the Convention “Peace” Deal is in place: the renegotiated platform committee. 6 – Clinton; 5- Sanders; 4- Wasserman-Schultz; Chair by consensus: Elijah Cummings.
Wasserman-Schultz’s four picks were not announced, which is interesting.
Where do you see cleavages in the committee?
Where would these people cause a platform that would authentically move to the left? Where would it be window-dressing? Who is “each campaign’s top policy advisor”?
Source is: Tom Fitzgerald, Philly Inquirer: Peace deal to increase Sanders say over Dem platform.
It’s a known-name panel. As much PR about Sanders not being radical as anything else.
There must be other agreements that ensure that this platform is put out as a mandate and, given the mandate, will indeed be acted on. And common strategies for taking seats in the Congress to demonstrate the breadth of the mandate.
McKibben versus Browner is a VERY interesting comparison.
Browner was the single most important person behind LCV’s early endorsement of Clinton. McKibben is essentially a critic of what one might call the mainstream environmental organizations.
Is LCV a good judge of issues? I don’t know much about them. We appear to have an invisible local one here in Texas.
Former President Bill Clinton appointed current LCV board chairwoman Carol Browner as administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency in 1993. Browner also campaigned for Hillary Clinton for the Democratic presidential nomination against Obama in 2008.
(https://www.yahoo.com/news/lcv-responds-to-green-backlash-after-endorsing-144158465.html?ref=gs)
Electability was the rationale.
In my last diary, introduced Tanden to Frog Ponders that were unfamiliar with her. Billmon on Tanden: “She really IS a scumbag. So much for truth as a defense.”
Update from Billmon: