Diehard supporters of Bernie Sanders managed to boo, jeer, or otherwise interrupt and disrespect an impressive roster of Democrats yesterday, including their champion himself when he appeared before them outside the convention. Here’s a list of the some of people of color they mistreated: former head of the NAACP and Sanders supporter Ben Jealous, Rep. Marcia Fudge of Ohio who is now chairing the convention, New York state Senator Adriano Espaillat who is running for Charlie Rangel’s Harlem seat in Congress, Rev. Dr. Cynthia Hale who mentioned Hillary in her invocation, platform chair Rep. Elijah Cummings of Maryland, and immigration activist and actress Eva Longoria.
They also heckled others like former Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi and Sen. Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts. Some particularly bad miscreants had to be aggressively shushed during First Lady Michelle Obama’s impressive speech. These behaviors were seen as problematic enough that Sanders fired off an email to his list begging people not to cause disruptions on the convention floor because they would damage the movement.
Charlie Pierce put it well.
Reverend Cynthia Hale delivered a lovely invocation, asking god to heal the wounds in our land, and to make the rough ways smooth and so forth, and things were blissful, until she mentioned Hillary Rodham Clinton, and then half the hall erupted in a “Bernie! Bernie!” chant. If Roger Stone was paying these people with pilfered Russian oil rubles, he couldn’t have done a better job of having people ratfck themselves. I remain amazed.
In fairness to Pierce, he left the convention hall and met with the disenchanted Sanders folks outside, and then he wrote sympathetically and respectfully about their concerns. Still, he could not come around to the idea that their conspicuous displays of displeasure were a necessary and important stand on principle rather than a spectacularly self-defeating tantrum.
And, of course, Pierce could not help but point out the strong likelihood that Vladimir’s spies were puppet masters behind the scenes. But even former KGB officer Putin isn’t this effective. He needed help and he got it from some own goals that Clinton allies delivered on a poorly encrypted platter. He also got it in some of the psychological operations that Sanders folks ran against the Clinton campaign throughout the primaries.
Chief among these were false allegations of election tampering and fraud in places like Arizona, Brooklyn, Kentucky, California and Puerto Rico. That these things did not happen in a way that would have favored Clinton did not prevent the memes from spreading like wildfire, turning hoards of well-meaning Bernie fans into outraged lifetime opponents of Clinton.
Let’s take the most obvious example. Here are the election results for Brooklyn, New York.
BROOKLYN
Clinton 60% 174,236
Sanders 40% 116,327
As WNYC reported back in April, there were two significant and irregular voter purges in Brooklyn that resulted in about 120,000 people being improperly removed from the rolls. The chief clerk, a woman named Diane Haslett-Rudiano, was suspended without pay and you can join others in scouring her background and associations. One thing you should know, though, is that she is still listed as the Republican Commissioner of Overseas and Military Services for New York state’s board of elections.
Considering that Clinton won New York despite losing the vast majority of its counties, and that she carried the Brooklyn voters who could vote by twenty percentage points, and that the person ostensibly responsible for the purges is a Republican election commissioner, it seems highly unlikely that it was in Clinton’s interests to suppress the vote there. But let’s examine the question a little more.
In June, WNYC and NPR reported that the purge affected Latino voters the most:
On two dates — June 18 and July 5, 2015 — a total of 122,454 voters were removed from the rolls of registered voters in Brooklyn. This map shows the percentage of registered voters purged in each election district:
The concentrations of purged voters generally align with election districts where the majority of the population is Hispanic, based on the population of individual blocks that make up each election district in the 2010 Census.
According to the exit polls for New York’s primary, Clinton carried the Latino vote statewide by a 64%-36% margin. She also carried the black vote 75%-25%. Since 122,454 voters were removed from the rolls in areas populated by people who gave Clinton more that the 60% she won from Brooklyn as whole, it seems much more likely than not that Clinton came out much worse than Sanders. By my back of the envelope math, if all the purged voters had turned out, Clinton would have gained approximately 24,000 net votes. This is because the 60%-40% countywide split would have translated to about 73,000 votes for Clinton and 49,000 votes for Sanders. Of course, these precincts being highly black and Latino implies that Clinton’s split would have been higher, but we know that many of these voters would not have voted even if they hadn’t been purged.
However you slice it, it doesn’t add up to a nefarious plot to steal the election from Sanders or to target his voters for disenfranchisement. There’s a candidate from New York who didn’t want Latinos to be registered to vote, but he isn’t a Democrat. He’s Donald Trump. If you want to know why a Republican commissioner purged 122,454 largely Latino voters off the rolls in the summer of 2015, maybe that’s a better place to aim your tinfoil hat. After all, the first purge took place a mere two days after Trump announced his candidacy on June 16th. At the time, no one in Clinton’s camp would have taken remotely seriously the idea that she might need to cheat to beat Bernie Sanders in her home state. In fact, no one in Clinton’s camp would have ever believed that, and if they were going to do it, they would disenfranchise people from precincts and counties where Sanders would pile up votes, not places where he would bleed them.
That was a long digression, and I could make similarly long digressions to debunk theories of theft in California, Kentucky, Arizona, and anywhere else these charges have cropped up. The important thing is that they have become articles of faith among a lot of #BernieorBust people who ought to know better but have gotten caught up in a false narrative every bit as beguiling as the Fox News-generated Benghazi! hysteria. These things don’t “just happen.” There are actual people who spread these memes for political, ideological, and sometimes simply mercenary reasons. They are con men, at least initially. The second wave is made up of people who are sincerely outraged.
But the election was not stolen from Bernie Sanders, and while some highly placed people at the DNC did act inappropriately and disrespectfully, the weight of their thumbs was insufficient to sway the election.
To this day, the single most damaging thing the DNC is proven to have done to Sanders and the other challengers to Clinton was to schedule so few debates and to place them on weekends when viewership and news coverage would be at its lowest level. You can’t measure the influence of something like that, but I believe that it’s a real stretch to believe that it changed the outcome of the primaries.
But the sense of corruption and unfairness grew and grew until a news dump of Russian-pilfered emails seemed to confirm every unhinged, unchecked allegation.
To say that this benefits Trump and Putin is to put it mildly. Hillary Clinton can ill-afford to have her reputation for honesty and integrity falsely maligned by Democrats and Democratic delegates. She’s still carrying the baggage of twenty-five years of Republican smear tactics. Here and there, along the way, she’s added some legitimate targets for criticism, but that doesn’t justify accusing her of crimes and making false allegations against her.
In the end, Charlie Pierce is right. Yesterday, we watched people ratfck themselves in an amazing fashion, and they mostly did it with a clear conscience and a sense of moral righteousness.
I tell you listening to Bernies speech made me mellow out a lot but you have mostly undone that this morning.
Because why?
Because the effect of what you just wrote is savage scab-picking, while 99% of the people at the convention, whomever they supported in the primaries, and notably Bernie Snaders himself, were really trying to heal those scabs.
Fair enough, but I see an oozing pus wound, not a scab.
This isn’t scab-picking; partly because it’s not over and just 12 hours ago they were heckling Elizabeth Warren, of all people; but primarily because this is going to come up again. There will be future left insurgent campaigns, and if they also spew truthy libelous nonsense we’re going to be back in the same boat.
There will be fewer successful left insurgencies than there would have been, because a lot of people basically sympathetic to the idea of “pushing to the left” are going to be much more skeptical of them in the future.
Oh come on, heckling is fun and especially in the atmosphere of a convention. Besides Warren is politically much closer to Sanders so she deserves a few heckles for her action or lack of it in the primary.
I guess I just dont see the future issue. Oh people who are ‘sympathetic’ might say that but it’s an excuse not to put their money where their mouth is. They’d find some other reason.
Heckling is fun.
Would it have been experienced by you as “fun” if Clinton Delegates had heckled Sanders during his speech, or anywhere at the Convention?
“Heckling is fun” in this context expresses an extraordinary lack of willingness to grasp basic concepts of interpersonal relationships. Yes, protest expressed rudely can move people, can move politicians. But the protests have to be well-organized and attached to the goals of the moment. The Convention establishes the Democratic party nominee as determined by the primary campaign, support the nominee’s victory in November, and hear from the nominee that they will carry the issues the Delegates care about.
With these crucial contexts in mind, why on Earth would you believe that, taking your example, Senator Warren would experience heckling during her internationally broadcasted speech and decide “Yeah, I should have endorsed Sanders and trashed Clinton during the primary. I agree with them!”?
How is heckling one of the most effective and progressive Senators in Congress at such a time in service to an effective progressive movement?
Hillary Clinton will tell the Convention plenary during her acceptance speech that she is opposed to the final TPP language and will not support it as President. Would it be in service to Senator Sanders’ vision of government to heckle Hillary at that moment? Some Sanders Delegates might experience that as “fun,” but to what end?
For the Sanders movement to have a permanent effect on American politics, Sanders supporters will have to work with other human beings. Your “heckling is fun” template won’t work to have the permanent effect on American politics you are hungry to achieve.
Not since I wasn’t doing the heckling but I still wouldnt have been mad. It’s just people blowing off steam. Heckling is an American tradition. Its not about changing Warren’s mind, that passed a long time ago. It’s just a way to register disapproval in a way she has to work hard to ignore. If it went on at all her campaign stops after the convention or against a SotU speech given by HRC or whatever than yeah, inappropriate. But a convention is raucus emotional and dynamic. Its more like Statler and Waldorf from the muppets than a serious problem right now. Relax.
Might have been “fun,” “raucus,” and “blowing off steam” but it also negatively influenced all the media coverage in ways EXPONENTIALLY more detrimental to the greater good than it was beneficial to the in-the-moment emotional needs or desires of those relatively few delegates. It did not warrant the messenging damage done.
I disagree. It means as things calm down as the week goes on, it makes then look authetic. Dynamic, not stage managed. Democrats honestly disagree about hiw to move forward. Diversity of views and discussion even heated, encouraged. Big tent.
You could be correct, I admit. But that could be a nuance that convinces fewer people to vote Dem than the media Wurlitzer discourages from turning out (at least for down ballot races) because they are so turned off.
I think this is correct. Assuming the heckling is over, a unified remainder of a convention will look good.
She has zero credibility on this issue. Her selection of running mate tells you all need to know.
I don’t know how many times or ways to say that your view here takes away all your power, and it makes it more difficult for us to prevent a future passage of the TPP.
It also fails to reward politicians when they improve their political and policy views.
Mark DeSaulnier is one of the more progressive members of Congress. He started out as a Republican business owner. He has made a policy voyage far further than Clinton’s.
Your technique disallows our movement from adding people, as you want to hold them to their past views forever.
I feel fairly certain that you have not held the same policy views throughout your life. Yet you deny this recognition of humanity for those you decide to make your enemies.
And it’s not important whether Clinton’s decision to oppose the final TPP language is 100% based on her updated policy view, 100% based on political expediency, or a mix of the two (the most likely answer).
What’s important is that we make use of her opposition to prevent Congress from passing it. We’re winning. We’ve got to keep on winning, as often and as much as possible.
And the reason she fought to keep opposition to the TPP out of the party platform?
Her delegates agreed to place in the platform a statement which documented that the President has opposition within his own Party on this issue. The President, through the DNC appointees on the platform committee, had some say in the discussion.
You reject “Yes” as an answer from Hillary.
You don’t want power for yourself. It’s strange, dispiriting and disappointing.
With power comes responsibility, not to mention hard work. Much easier to stand aside and cast righteous stones.
I agree with you on this. The more we take her on her word, the harder it is for her to weasel out of it.
Only time will tell.
Take her on her word, fight hard to hold her to her word, and use her word to press Congress to do what we want.
Thanks.
Ellison says it in a somewhat different way.
I see the need for effective protest. I’m willing to consider the case you and Ellison are making here.
Booing Clinton when she says she opposes TPP is hard to claim as effective protest. Maybe some form of affirmation of her position would be better for our shared goals.
Changing her earlier position, a position held before the final language was completed, was a display of faith Clinton showed to the movement pushing to reject the TPP. It was also an acknowledgement of the power of the movement. At some point, it becomes rational to offer a small sliver of faith and acknowledgement of power in return.
I trust Trump much less on the TPP than I do Clinton. Donald doesn’t give a damn about that thing he said last week. If the TPP will make him money, and it almost certainly would, he’ll sign it. Trump talks of the need to be unpredictable and flexible.
You cant discount outright lies the democrats like Obama in 2008 told about trade. In fact, the guy Obama sent out to reassure the Canadians he was indeed lying to the electorate was featured yesterday in a video attacking Trumps outsourcing.
I agree that HRC should get at least a little buy in. But its also rational to be wary.
I agree it’s rational to be wary. Yep, history demands it.
Diligence on the issue does not have to include sticking middle fingers in the face of an enormously powerful politician while she is telling us that she supports our deeply felt position.
If we keep Congress off the Partnership, it never gets on any President’s desk. Let’s use her opposition to help keep Congress off the Partnership.
If you boo Clinton when she says she opposes TPP, it makes it sound like you are FOR TPP.
You wrote below you didnt write what you did to demoralize people. Except thats what happened. What if you and eveyone who spent their time doing that instead ackowledged the longshot chance and then spent your time pushing Bernie to everyone you could reach, even using your previously stated connections?
What if instead of using their institutional power to try a thwart him at every turn (note, I’m not assessing any illegality here I personally happen to agree with you that any subverting that did happen didnt effect the outcome with the possible exception of Arizona) elected Democrats had stayed neutral with regard to someone who was openly championing their supposed end goals as a party?
What if they hadn’t spent all their time shoving a representative of a party establiahment who cowered in pants wetting fear of Fox News after 2001 until the damn netroots put some steel in their spine in 2006 only to see them fecklessly collapse once again under the helm of the current VP candidate. One who you have acknowledged has some significant flaws. Well if the democrats stood aside and let the ekectorate choose fine but instead they did their damndest to present a workable useful preowned vehichle as a Tesla racecar.
Thats leaving aside their piss poor IT security and the employment of an inferior product from a company of whom a VP is the nephew of the just ousted DNC chair.
Instead what we get (and this is reflected in the emails) is “You’re stupid for trying to help Bernie win.”
Any wonder its salt in a wound?
Well, I’m sorry that there’s a wound.
My object was to prevent you from being wounded.
There were no combination of factors that could have made Bernie Sanders the Democratic nominee, and before I changed anything, the candidate himself would have had to change a dozen things to even begin to change the balance against him.
It was the belief that he could win, if only…that was the most toxic thing of all.
Even if thats the case – I disagree but this is opinion, you may be right and you believe that in good faith regardless – it wouldn’t have been as mightily unfair as it was. That’s a different thing than legality. Yes it was always going to be unfair, but it’s hard to take lectures from people who kicked the underdog whenever they could for whatever reason.
Even if you insist on the interpretation that I was kicking the underdog, you should understand something.
It you and I are both Vikings fans and I tell you not to put money on the Vikings, that doesn’t mean that I am trying to make the Vikings lose. I am trying to use my knowledge of football to prevent you from losing a badly considered investment.
I’m mostly a Twins fan though I see where you are coming from. To me its more like you’re telling me not to buy season tickets because the team is a bad team and its a waste of money. So it is, but I still want to see them in person and cheer them on.
Except, however it might seem, that is not remotely what I said.
Ever.
Maybe its because you’re east coast and I’m midwest but the tone of the writing did not communicate anything remotely like wanting to avoid wounds. The words to that effect came off as sarcasm or even veiled insult all the damn time. ‘Foolish children!’ unspoken at the end of each post.
I’ve said it before even if someone believes Bernie couldn’t win I still think there’s a duty to the ideals he championed to fight as hard as one possibly could if one believes in them. Aside from giving a little more leverage, do it because it’s the right thing to do.
To think, last night I’d tentatively decided I trusted Bernie enough to vote HRC as the best current option. Haha.
I hardly need to say that I agree with you 100% (even if I am on the East Coast).
I just wanted to add that the sports-team analogy doesn’t work, because the fans, much as they might like to think so, have very little influence on the outcome of a game, whereas in politics, the efforts of the fans is an integral part of the process. Without voters you can’t even get to first base.
Booman’s position was self-contradictory because, on the one hand, he wanted Bernie to come to the convention with the greatest possible number of delegates; but on the other, in order for that to happen, Sanders would need as many votes as possible. But people, in real life, usually vote for candidates because they think or at least hope they will win.
He went so far as to say that Sanders was being dishonest, deceiving people into thinking he could win.
As you point out, efforts to dampen hope in a candidate, if successful, would dissuade people from voting (“why bother”?). Which would result in Bernie getting to the convention with FEWER delegates than he would if people actually believed he could win.
Although it takes a lot of words to explain this, I and many others here instinctively felt there was something wrong with Booman’s attitude, because motivation grows directly out of feeling.
The other part of it is that I don’t believe things would have gone down this way without Obama’s cooperation, and Booman, even though he clearly believed Clinton to be a “lousy” candidate, was not going to second-guess somebody he respects as much as Obama.
I have great respect for Obama myself, but, what with eleven-dimensional chess and all that, I never let that effect my feelings about Hillary Clinton. BBesides, at the time, I really did not connect Obama with it. He certainly did a good job of keeping himself in the background.
I don’t respect Obama as much as you but I don’t really hold this against him. He and HRC were close in policy in 2008 and his entire political philosophy is adverse to Bernie and Trump–not just the revolutionary style when Obama believes in the existing technocratic system, but the idea that politics is in some measure zero sum. That others are doing better is causing you to do worse, whether thats plutocrats or the Chinese. That a rising tide will not lift all boats.
Can hardly blame someone for not supporting a repudiation of their politics even if I think the country wpuld have been better served if he had.
Okay, other than being slightly less shit than every other President ever, what exactly is there to admire about Obama? Was it the near-record deportations? Was it going all Uncle Tom (complete with signing a new executive order reauthorizing military sales to police departments) on police violence? Was it him fucking over his own recovery with debt ceiling bullshit? Was it letting the DNC get reduced to a rump that can only compete at the Presidential level?
What is there to admire about this doofus?
Admiration of Obama — not just weary resignation of the ‘the Inner Party only changed chocolate rations by 10% this time’, actual admiration — just shows how shallow and hypocritical the politics of the reality-based community really are. That, or they secretly support these things but can’t bring themselves to admit to it.
Maybe Booman can answer that question better than I can.
On a personal level, Obama is exemplary, imo.
On a political level, he is a man of the neoliberal times. All of those complaints you list are consistent with implementing that viewpoint. 99% of the dominant technocrat community is likewise. They DO NOT SEE A PROBLEM. Of course, it pays them not to see a problem.
These statements contradict each other. Considering that Obama gleefully enacted, with no pressure or gain, 8.5 billion in food stamp cuts two years ago to please plutocrats, I’d say that the man is a craven suck-up who deserves to get dick-punched by a single mom with lead-poisoned kids.
centerfielddj is very unhappy that I’m not showing
Margaret Snatcher, Milk Snatcher 2.0a food-stamp cutter the proper deference.Good.
If there is no chance for a truly progressive candidate to win, and if progressive voters are expected to automatically vote for the Democratic candidate, by what mechanism is the Democratic Party supposed to be “pulled to the left”?
Do you seriously think that Hillary Clinton gives two shits about the platform concessions that Sanders “won”?
Yes, I do. She will have terrific problems governing at all unless she is seen to take actions in attempts to execute her campaign promises. Most of her promises require Congressional support, but she has a vital leadership role.
Your cynicism is actively damaging to the ability of our movement to hold her and Congress to account. You plan to be over in the corner with a couple of like-minders, arms folded and sullen, observing and registering outrage, while others choose to involve themselves every day in ways which stand a chance of working to create the future you want.
That gives you no power. Why don’t you want power?
There is no way to hold a politician to account except by credibly threatening to not vote for them.
It is exactly because Democrats do not credibly threaten this that the Overton Window has moved to the point where the party has essentially nominated Richard Nixon.
More flogging of the progressive record of Nixon here. Gee, it’s like Dick didn’t see the Democratic Party he was forced to work with in Congress as Enemies of the Republic or something. That’s why his Administration broke into DNC headquarters, raided their files, and the President helped finance the cover-up.
Hillary wants to increase financial institution regulations, offer Medicare buy-in for Americans 55 and over, and formed a comprehensive set of education reform policies which Sanders trumpeted up and down. Oh, and over 20 million Americans with low and middle incomes have gained better access to lower-cost health care, financed thru taxes on wealthy people and organizations. Nixon fought for these things, correct?
Thoroughly invalid historical representations, shorn of all context. It’s how you roll.
Keep on persuading!
Nixon was a true progressive.
Pay no attention to the Congress behind the legislation.
Nixon actually WAS a Progressive Republican. Such things did exist back then. A lot of them helped pass the Civil Rights Act.
Can you imagine ANY Republican since Nixon signing off on bills presented to him by LBJ’s Congress? I can’t. Maybe Papa Bush, if you held a gun to my head…
This is the sort of hyperbolic crap that angers many here. And it makes you look like an ignorant bully just spoiling for a fight. And you do it over and over again.
Are you incapable of recognizing that what exists in the two parties today was not always exactly or even close to the same as what existed thirty, forty, fifty, etc. years ago? Hell, I hundred years ago I would have been voting for the progressive who was a Republican.
In real time, I loathed Nixon. He was a sneaky, dirty, lying corrupt politician. And he did play hardball, but not Mitch McConnell’s form of hardball, “if a Democrats are for it, I’m against it.” Had he tried that, he would have been a “one term and out POTUS in a landslide POTUS.” He was forced to work with a Democratic congress that was still dominated by New Dealers. He signed the NEPA (hell Scoop Jackson advanced that one and even Goldwater had environmental protection leanings). Signed the ERA. (He was the father of daughters, after all.) He wasn’t a good or even decent President, but in small ways he didn’t obstruct new legislation that was in the spirit of the New Deal. It took Democratic Presidents that not only didn’t further advance the New Deal, but take a chain saw to New Deal legislation that had served the people very well for decades.
Obama’s “Grand Bargain” (which thankfully he couldn’t even sell to all of what passes as Democrats on the Hill today) is one such proposal that is contrary to the spirit and the dregs of New Deal legislation that currently exists.
It’s hyperbolic to point out that there was a Democratic House and Congress passing Democratic legislation that Nixon signed?
Ok then!
(That exclamation point was a clear indication of me bullying you, by the way).
Get a grip.
It’s not that he’s not the nominee. It’s that he’s switched to being an ardent Clinton supporter, tossing the common man onto the burning altar of Wall Street.
The millions in “speaking fees”. The money laundering of Chinese and Saudi illegal contributions through the Clinton Foundation. The CORRUPT candidate.
Once again, you ask ask us to vote for the crook instead of the Nazi. Not this time.
Well, the “Nazi” (and his party which will be further empowered) will do ALL the damage the “crook” might or might not do and A WHOLE LOT MORE DAMAGE. That is guaranteed. So why not help prevent all that EXTRA damage, at least?
Because right now it’s not really clear whether Clinton + Fascist in 2020 will cause less EXTRA DAMAGE than Trump + Democratic counterattack.
I’m betting that Clinton’s administration goes down in flames from 2016-2020. Due to a combination of warhawkery, political gridlock, economic doldrums (if not outright recession; thanks Obama for kowtowing to that debt ceiling fuckery), and scandalmongering.
I mean, it’s not like the factors that led to Trump ascending will go away in 2020. The only tailwind Clinton will be getting in 2020 is that the electorate will become about 1.5% more nonwhite. Unfortunately, this increase will be concentrated in areas that the Democrats already crush in (California, New York) or get dominated in (Georgia, Texas).
I mean, damn, even the SCOTUS trump card is looking pretty tattered. As I predicted, the public and media are pretty much letting the GOP get away with not filling up the ranks of the Supreme Court. It’s very likely that if Hillary Clinton wins in 2016, we will have zero years of filling USSC seats. An above-average case has us getting two years.
Deathtongue, this is some weak and overdetermined argumentation, throughout. It’s not even worth refuting point by point, because if you have determined all policy, economic and electoral outcomes in advance, you can “prove” anything you like.
I’d love for you to tell a Hispanic family that a Trump Presidency would be best for them in the big picture.
There’d be no UN without a few million people sacrificed on the alter of, “well, he’s just a clown and won’t be able to accomplish anything anyway”.
Just sayin’.
Big picture.
Ha! Nice dodge. My position doesn’t require on any special black swans. Rather, my position requires that shit mostly continues to happen like it already has. That is, most of these things in 2016-2020:
What is your argument for claiming that 2016-2020 won’t be a disaster for the Democratic incumbent? That someone invents transporters and we have an economic renaissance? That there’s a terrorist attack that Clinton manages to exploit for her own gain? That a massive scandal that only slimes the GOP happens a couple of months before the midterms? What?
Are you liberals galactically incapable of seeing past the next election?
First off, Hillary Clinton has shown no promise in reducing the deportations that occurred under Obama (who is barely 2nd place for number of deportations across all administrations) nor Bill Clinton (who is barely in 3rd place). Which leads us into point two:
Given that it’s very likely that a HRC will go down in flames, with a surplus-induced recession, her warhawkery, and 4 years of gridlock + massive Republican gains in 2018, here are the two calculuses:
2016 – 2024: Trump + Democratic counterattack.
2016 – 2016: Hillary Clinton + More competent fascist.
Now, you can make arguments that show we have other plausible outcomes. For example, Trump may juice the economy in other ways and win 8 years. Or Hillary Clinton manages to get primaried or impeached and, like the GOP after Nixon, the Democratic Party recovers quickly. Or despite limping into 2020 the GOP is hit with a surprise pedophilia scandal, making it possible for her to win despite a failed administration. But you need to argue on those terms.
Indeed. Am wondering if Republicans are considering lawsuits to exploit the gridlock on the SC. Get a favorable result in lower Appeals Court for your side and it’s frozen by the extended tie on the SC.
If Republicans keep the Senate, that will evolve, I suspect. They won’t be making HC appointments in any kind of hurry.
I think your recession prediction is correct. Extended austerity has seriously weakened the Main Street economy and it won’t take much. The Fed has propped up assets to the point of becoming noticeable.
Like to add spelling errors are a result of my hands being too large for a mobile keyboard.
I sympathize.
Yes, all that happened, but I have to say that the fucking MSM gave a FAR more balanced account of it than you just did. And as for the DNC itself, which has accepted at least 3/4 of the Sanders program — way, WAY more balanced. And as for the Bernie people, the VAST majority of them are with the program. Why didn’t you write about Sarah Silverman, or Keith Ellison, or (shudder) Bernie Sanders himself?
I’m tired of hearing about the fate of poor Debbie Wasserman-Schultz. The Russian component is a completely different, and very important, issue, but DWS deserved to be shitcanned a long time ago, and believe me if the DNC didn’t fully realize that, they wouldn’t have done it.
Because both the DNC and the Berniecrats really are concerned with party unity, while you seem to be mainly concerned with self-justification for a whole season of comments sometimes more about defending your early prognostications, then fairly judging what was going on.
There has been this implication throughout the whole campaign season that these Bernie or Bust people, who don’t know shit from shinola about politics, are the “typical” Sanders supporters when for all I know, your suggestion “that Vladimir’s spies were puppet masters behind the scenes” might very well be true.
In the end, I think you’re grossly exaggerating the damage this either has done or will do. I watched the convention last night, and, at least after the first part, whenever there were these chants and catcalls, it sounded like about 2 to 5 people.
Now here’s my prognostication: the stupid behavior of the Bernie or Bust people, and good behavior of most everybody else, including the reception of Sanders, will have the ultimate effect of showing the world that the vast majority of Sanders supporters are — that much more — an organic, bona fide component of the Democratic Party.
Which is what you wanted all along, right?
You know what I wanted?
I wanted Bernie Sanders to run a stronger than expected campaign, pile up a lot of delegates and get his ideas out to the wider public. I wanted him to go into the convention with enough clout to influence the platform and maybe even some of the hiring practices of the Clinton administration.
But I did not want a bunch of good-willed, highly idealistic progressive-minded people to become convinced that Hillary Clinton is the devil or that Sanders only lost because of some unfair rigging. I didn’t want them to get hurt. I didn’t want them to get disillusioned. I didn’t want them to grow cynical.
But it curdled and it curdled badly. And I’m upset about it.
You know, I did not write all those pieces about why Sanders could not win because I wanted to demoralize people. I wrote it in an effort to save as many people as possible from becoming embittered and hostile.
I appreciate what you wanted and didn’t want. And when it comes down to it, I wanted exactly the same thing. But I did have a different view of Hillary.
Events, over which I had no control, have placed my view of Hillary into a different context. American politics are moving to the left. It’s about fucking time, and Hillary herself appears to be accepting it, whether she really wanted to or not.
Things don’t always turn out EXACTLY how we want. But I seem to be a lot more sanguine about the edginess of it, and I’ll tell you why — because it’s real, the DNC understands the stakes, and it’s more likely to keep them honest. (Relatively speaking.)
The one thing I love about this convention is, while it’s well organized, it’s NOT stage-managed. There’s just too much, and it’s too real. Compare this with so many bullshit conventions of years past.
And another thing — the Democratic PArty sure has a deep bench, doesn’t it. It really is NOT all about Hillary.
But your strategy backfired, because it’s not how humans work. Some fraction of unimportant Sanders supporters are unsurprisingly acting like cretins after the election. Some fraction of the party establishment that supported Clinton unsurprisingly acted inappropriately during the election (and are acting like Very Serious Scolds, now). The impoliteness bothers you–and the majority of the establishment, as politeness is our highest principle–more than the (mild) misuse of power. Fair enough. But there has never been a time when it’s been possible to scold people around to your point of view. You cannot prevent idealistic principled people from becoming cynical by explaining the True Hard Facts of Life in as manly a voice as possible. The way to engage with them is not that: oddly enough, a better strategy is to show them respect even–especially?–when you disagree. Not agreement, but respect.
Also, I suspect that a great deal of the disillusion and cynicism is due to the Obama campaign and administration. (Though I think I remember you worrying in 2008 that Obama was giving his supporters too high hopes? And I no doubt thought you were wrong, but now wonder if you were right.) People felt real hope, and were hopeful of real change. They longed for transformation. For the audacity of now. I wept when Obama was elected: I bet most of us did. And while he’s certainly led the cleanest administration ever, and achieved a great deal …
http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2016/07/18-great-trends-obama-administration–and-2-terrible-o
nes
… none of that really addresses the longing for audacious transformation (nor does it include trends about party building, prosecuting whistleblowers, and using drones). And while I know, they know, everyone knows that Republican intransigence is the main reason for the failure to progress, there was never any effort to continue to establish–to broadcast–audacious transformation as a goal of the party, even if as a currently-impossible goal. Audaciousness was abandoned. And we’re now nominating a candidate who is a great deal like Obama, in many admirable ways … but who explicitly rejects even the idea of transformative political change.
Maybe that’s better, in the long run. Maybe Clinton’s point, in 2008, about not over-promising was much, much stronger than I’d thought. But I’m not sure how you harness a political movement for progress in this country without giving people hope, and letting them dream. And when those hopes and dreams don’t come true, sternly calling people naive stardust-sniffers doesn’t help. They know the fight is hard. They don’t expect victories. They just expect that their leaders KEEP FIGHTING.
And mostly, I guess, what I see is this: there’s a massive hugely-funded party apparatus tasked with harnessing the power of leftie activism. That’s their JOB. They get paid for it. But instead of figuring a way to co-opt the passionate left, they spend all their time pointing fingers at it. Or wagging fingers. Scolding and blaming. But party unity is not the job of some leftie nutter; it’s the job of the party.
Or they spend all their time ramping up outrage to generate signatures, donations, membership and page views, while leading people down a primrose path to disappointment.
Or they spread toxic rumors for naked political gain and then complain that you’re pointing your finger at them when the duped misbehave and are misinformed and become cynical and hostile and apathetic and stop participating in productive ways.
Usuncut ahem occupydemocrats ahem DFA cough cough the Nation cough ahem cough
I’ve been saying this for months. It’s infuriating.
Grayson.
He says all the outrageous things!!
Those problems will always exist. The question for us is, how do we most effectively respond to them?
I agree with everything you say.
Except one thing: your use of the word “co-opt”. I remember my Marcuse One-Dimensional Man well enough to know that “co-opt” means for the system to adopt an idea in such a way as to deprive it of its actual meaning. It becomes accepted precisely by becoming tamed, domesticated, devoid of meaning and “safe” for the corporate machine.
I would rather have employed some such word as “harnessed”, i.e., using that energy to pull the party to a better place. “Co-optation” is exactly what we DON’T want. Fortunately, Bernie is from the generation that read Marcuse as well. (It was virtually a textbook for political DFH’s in those days.)
Well-clarified, thanks! (Although I think that their failure to even co-opt the passionate left is a real indictment of their professionalism.)
Quoted this yesterday.
“If there’s elite & left failure at times of cultural transition & economic anxiety and threat, Ethno-supremacist ideologies rise. So common. The least productive, misleading discussion here is “is it race or economic” anxiety. They’ve LONG BEEN INTERTWINED. Here and in Europe. Trump promises protectionism. US bargain was: you lose good jobs, you get cheap stuff. Of course people want good jobs. Jobs are identity.
I still think Trump cannot win (due to lack of organization) and this country is moving forward on race. But if left unsolved, the economic anxiety part will come back again, and not always in a nice and polite “can we have some job security and sane redistribution” format.”
The anger did not come out of nowhere. It is the result of establishment failure, not left wing deception.
To blame Bernie Sanders for the anger in this electorate is to blame chemotherapy for cancer.
We’re a multicultural coalition. That’s not just true of the Democratic Party; it’s true of the progressive movement.
When portions of that coalition come to the Movement, to the Party, with their specific demands, it simply does not work to respond to them by saying “racial and economic anxieties are intertwined.” Middle-class blacks are being murdered and harassed by law enforcement; middle-class Hispanics are having their lives torn by horrible immigration policies. Each are picked out on a daily basis for discriminatory treatments by institutions and citizens.
Black Lives Matter, the DREAMers, and other cultural interest groups are angry too. Their anger must be listened to and specifically addressed. Telling them they’re being misled is condescending to the nth degree.
Barack Obama, 2008:
“Obama was caught in an uncharacteristic moment of loose language. Referring to working-class voters in old industrial towns decimated by job losses, the presidential hopeful said: “They get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.“
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/apr/14/barackobama.uselections2008
Argue with Obama.
I am uncertain what you are trying to express here.
The least productive, misleading discussion here is “is it race or economic” anxiety. They’ve LONG BEEN INTERTWINED.”
So true. And sure, not all AAs and Latinos are poor. They do have more ways into the middle class today, but this comes precisely at the time when the middle class is under tremendous pressure. Anyone who thinks minorities are not ESPECIALLY vulnerable to these tendencies that both Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren understand so well, ought to think again. “I’m all right, Jack” has never been the right answer.
Racial minorities, who often face discrimination in hiring and pay rates, are very overrepresented among gig workers.
Last hired, first fired.
Yet BLM, DREAMers and others want and deserve special attention paid to their unique issues.
These concepts can work well together, but they won’t work as well together if, for example, African-Americans concerned about murder, maiming and other abuses by law enforcement are told that accomplishing a repeal of Citizens United will do the most to solve their problems.
Repeal of Citizens United would go a long way towards solving a whole lot of problems in this country.
Yes. But major political problems existed well before Citizens United. Many of those problems were created by money’s pollution of politics as well.
Do you believe, for one of many examples, that DREAMers feel that such a response is sufficient?
A progressive movement centered so completely on economic inequality and campaign financing will continue to experience challenges building the coalition they will need to win national election, particularly as other ethnicities in our coalition grow their numbers and bring their unique challenges to the movement and seek our solidarity in solving them.
They don’t want to wait for a Constitutional amendment which overcomes Citizens United. And they shouldn’t be made to wait.
Something’s got to give. Right now it’s the law of the land. But it’s extremely unpopular, not just with Democrats, but with Republicans and Independents as well.
You gotta be kidding me.
Here’s the reactions from the major Party leaders to the Citizens United decision:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=122805666
Supreme Court Rips Up Campaign Finance Laws
January 21, 2010
10:09 AM ET
DEBORAH TEDFORD
“…President Obama swiftly blasted the court’s decision, calling on Congress to devise a “forceful response” as quickly as possible.
“The Supreme Court has given a green light to a new stampede of special interest money in our politics,” Obama said in a statement. “It is a major victory for big oil, Wall Street banks, health insurance companies and the other powerful interests that marshal their power every day in Washington to drown out the voices of everyday Americans.”
On Capitol Hill, reaction was deeply divided between supporters of the campaign finance rules that were rejected and those who defended the court’s ruling.
Rep. Chris Van Hollen, a Democrat from Maryland, said lawmakers have to use the decision to help voters understand how broken the system is.
“This has got to be a wakeup call to every citizen that they cannot allow the big corporations to call the shots on these elections,” he said.
House Republican Leader John Boehner of Ohio called the decision “a big win for the First Amendment” as long as donors disclose every dollar they spend on campaigns.
“Let the American people decide how much money is enough,” he said…”.”
http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/03/mitch-mcconnell-praises-citizens-united/?_r=0
Mitch McConnell Praises Citizens United
By DAVID FIRESTONE
MAY 3, 2012
11:57 AM
“…Mr. McConnell has outdone himself with a legal brief submitted recently to the Supreme Court that’s blind to how unlimited contributions damage the political system. Not only is there no reason for the court to reconsider or overturn its 2010 Citizens United ruling, he wrote, but the events of the last two years actually support the correctness of the decision.
…
In his brief, urging the court to strike down the Montana law, he says the money has allowed “far more political speech in 2012 than would otherwise have been the case,” making the campaign less predictable and more interesting. (In fact, predictably, the guy with the most money won the Republican nomination.)”
You may be right that rank-and-file Republicans do not like money in politics. But they are not animated by the issue, their Party platform reflects that fact, and Republican candidates may not enjoy dialing for dollars but they’ll be damned if they’re going to agree to surrender their massive campaign advantages.
They’re also happy to put Democrats in the position of either seeking their own big money contributions or getting crushed every election by big bags of money.
Over 80% of NRA members support background checks for gun purchases. That doesn’t seem to matter much to their leadership, or Republicans in Congress.
GOP leaders are even more motivated to protect the laws around Citizens United and McCutcheon, another fucked-up decision, than they are to oppose gun control. What do you think the #1 reason is for Senate Republican’s stonewalling of Merrick Garland? They’re desperate.
Electing Trump devastates our fight on this issue.
I don’t know why you’re on my case about this. I don’t disagree with you.
As for the Republicans, yes, I was thinking of the rank and file. Polls have shown that they dislike it as well.
http://billmoyers.com/2014/11/21/majority-americans-want-money-politics/
But the truth is (although it’s not my problem), Citizens United has not been good for the Republican Party. The mess they are in was greatly exacerbated by CU.
http://www.newsweek.com/2016/03/18/dark-money-boomerang-republican-party-434499.html
Your point that money was already doing a lot of harm in politics before CU is true. When it comes to repealing CU, that will be a good opportunity to go further in getting big money out of politics.
“You know, I did not write all those pieces about why Sanders could not win because I wanted to demoralize people. I wrote it in an effort to save as many people as possible from becoming embittered and hostile. “
Whatever.
You can’t engage in political work without hope.
What you and just about every other pundit doesn’t understand is that Bernie didn’t create this anger. This anger is the product of moral outrage resulting from immoral wars and bailouts to people who are not held accountable.
There was no neat and clean possibility as you suggest. BECAUSE THE ANGER IS REAL. Tap into one and you tap into the other. And the other candidate has made a history at thumbing her nose at the left.
To think otherwise is to basically not understand the political moment.
What is revealing in all of this is the lack of context. WHY are Bernie’s people angry. The pundits have written of as political stupidity.
But the anger is not ignorant. It is informed anger.
People are pissed. They are pissed we go into a general election with an incredibly unpopular candidate who supported the War and who actually took personal money from Wall Street (the latter an act of such political stupidity as to defy reason)
I note you don’t mention Iowa. Because that is the one place where a case can be made that a thumb on the scale changed the outcome. Most of the “it was stolen” stuff is just people in denial – like people who think Bush stole Ohio.
But Iowa. In Iowa I SAW people leave the lines outside of precincts because they had been so badly organized.
And THAT mattered.
The middle class is shrinking, and people are demanding more responsive and transparent governance, executed by officials who are not dominated by monied interests. That’s healthy.
What has become unhealthy is that much of the real anger you reference has been manufactured by false information, distorted histories and bullshit premises, all with the intent of creating maximum personal animus for political gain.
The actions and rhetoric from the most venomous Bernie or Busters was not what Bernie intended to create, quite apparently. But human psychology is a tender thing, and the adjective “rigged” is extremely evocative and versatile. It’s difficult to take it out, throw it around in front of millions of voters, and then put it back in the box.
If Clinton and her campaign were unmoved by public pressure, they wouldn’t have run an extraordinarily liberal campaign, the most liberal of a POTUS nominee in our lifetimes, and Clinton delegates wouldn’t have supported the most liberal Democratic Party platform ever. It’s difficult to square these actions with your claim that Hillary thumbs her nose at the Left.
I’ll repeat something I’ve said a couple of times: if the Sanders movement is to help us move the Democratic Party and politics in general to the left, Sanders supporters will have to persuade Clinton supporters and work with them. You can’t make that happen by screaming at them that they are enablers of a corrupt system. Relationships don’t work that way.
LISTEN, LIBERAL. By Thomas Frank.
You’re blaming the victim.
Maybe the people in Black Lives Matter should work harder with local police departments too, hold bake sales for them. That kind of thing.
“What has become unhealthy is that much of the real anger you reference has been manufactured by false information, distorted histories and bullshit premises, all with the intent of creating maximum personal animus for political gain.”
Bullshit. Medium Family income is lower than in 1999. People have less access to pensions. We spent trillions on war in the Middle East. People got away with stealing trillions.
Nobody manufactured any of that. Any of it.
The establishment has failed.
And then you blame poor Bernie Sanders for some unrepresentative loudmouths – AND THAT IS WHERE YOUR ANGER IS DIRECTED.
The misdirection is coming from you.
If the Democratic Party were 100% in control of all levers of government and these were the outcomes, then your narrative would be fully valid.
But they have not been in control of all levers of government.
There is one political Party whose achieved policy goals are much, much more responsible for economic inequality, inequality which is causing the real pain you describe. You know this, and wish to allow that Party to evade responsibility for it.
Quite a world you’re inventing. But it’s one of the primary false narratives here.
The ACA, while imperfect, is one of the most progressively redistributive laws passed in the history of the United States. But it is shat on here at the Pond much more frequently than it is praised. Why? Essentially, because it has not ended inequality.
I feel this is one of the finest examples of useful idiocy the right wing could imagine. Yeah, let’s shit on Hillary’s goal to create Medicare opt-in for Americans 55 and over. Fuck her, she’s not fighting for single payer.
Yeah, let’s get Trump elected and see how the single payer movement is served by that.
You did not need to hold three branches to prosecute Wall Street after the financial crisis.
You needed only prosecutors seeking justice.
Period.
The rest is your usual line of defense. The truth is the truth. People are falling further behind. We spend absurd amounts on defense. We have a candidate who has shown willingness to repeat mistakes like Iraq.
That is the truth.
I did not invent that narrative.
Who is responsible? Surely the GOP more than the Democrats. But there was nothing standing in Eric Holder’s way to hold Wall Street accountable.
I did not invent it.
Unemployment at 9.6 U6 does not even cover the pain.
Consider 15 million workers whose only income is in the “gig” economy. And the gig sector is rapidly expanding. They do not qualify for inclusion in unemployment statistics. The Neoliberal Commodified Citizen or the herd of precariat impala.
“In December, the Labor Department hosted a forum called “The Future of Work” to better understand the gig economy. Then in January, Labor Secretary Tom Perez announced that gig workers would be included in the official jobs figures, which will be “rerun” with new counting methods by May 2017.” http://money.cnn.com/2016/05/06/news/economy/gig-economy-princeton-krueger-tiny/
Wonder what that will look like?
Oh, something stood in Holder’s way, all right.
How can you be confident that the Federal Judiciary, one heavily seeded by Federalist Society acolytes in 2009, would go along with the plan to successfully convict financial service executives?
Prosecutors do not determine criminal outcomes. It would have been far more damaging if the DOJ had lost prosecutions and the money men had established those wins as stare decisis.
The settlements and collections of billions of dollars in fines were more than nothing.
Dodd-Frank is FAR more than nothing.
I don’t think that justice was fully served, and I dislike the precedents set.
There’s a political Party and a political Movement which is far more responsible for this failure to achieve full justice.
You continue to want to deprive us from acknowledging these things, and pretend that Holder cackled with Wall Street executives in conspirational glee instead.
Obama achieved the first cut in DoD spending since Clinton, and you single out that issue. Bizarre.
Honestly, at this point you have become a fool.
Do you think the people that created this crisis give a fuck about the civil settlements?
No, they care that their ass was never in the dock, and they didn’t miss a summer in the Hamptons.
NOT FULLY SERVED? You are why the danger exists. Because you justify.
Justice wasn’t served at all. Period. They didn’t try – Eric Holder admitted as such. Your suggestion that GOP judges would get in the way is laughable. I am a former prosecutor. You can venue shop and get a decent judge.
AND YOU CAN”T GET THE WORDS OUT OF YOUR MOUTH.
It was Bill Clinton that signed the bill that prevented the CFTC from regulating derivatives. The effort to deregulate Wall Street was Bipartisan.
Chris Cox was a fucking moron. But the fault was absolutely bipartisan.
And we paid the price. In the 2010 exit poll voters believed the Democratic Party was closer to Wall Street than the Republicans.
Obama failed utterly in holding Wall Street accountable. He is the best president of my lifetime. A great man.
But that failure has created enormous anger. It is clear he was tone death about it.
I am done with you.
The Democrats pass Dodd-Frank without a single Republican vote. The voters support it. Yet you claim that voters in 2010 felt the Democrats were closer to Wall Street.
Well, that was a profoundly misinformed group of voters, eh?
How about now, after six years of Democratic defenses and Republican attacks on these significant regulations? Does the public maintain this view?
If they weren’t significant reforms, the Republicans wouldn’t have spent years trying to prevent the CPFB from functioning at all. The financial institutions wouldn’t be pouring their lobbying and political campaign monies into nonstop efforts to chip away at the Law. They wouldn’t be trying to elect Republicans and defeat Democrats.
Hillary has agreed with Bernie on a set of broader reforms. Trump wants to repeal Dodd-Frank.
So, let’s inform the public instead of misinforming them. We’ll have a better chance of having the future we want.
you mean like this group of government facilitators yukking it up?
Three Rich Treasury Secretaries Laugh It Up Over Income Inequality
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/geithner-rubin-paulson-income-inequality_us_55e9eabde4b093be51bb
73c3
Thank you for giving us a preview of future neoliberal Democratic failures at addressing the economy. “It’s the Republicans’ fault”.
It’s been historically true over the last century.
If Americans want better governance, they must give Democrats sufficient political power.
This observation does not claim Democratic governance as impeccable, or label Republican governance forever irredeemable.
Stein and Johnson will not take the White House for the next four years. Clinton or Trump will win in November. Which meets your preference?
There’s tension with this premise and two other premises Democratic Partisans use to justify their arc of centrism in the face of failure. The other two premises being:
A.) We have suboptimal political solutions like the ACA and inadequate stimulus because a huge faction of economic centrists in Democratic party need to be kowtowed to.
B.) Economic centrism is the only way we Democrats can get to a majority, both because that’s the only way we can get Democrats to win outside our strongholds and that’s what our donors want.
Of course, these premises very trivially negate the desired conclusion of ‘electing Democrats the establishment wants will get us out of this neoliberal quagmire’. Even a child could tell you that. Which is why Hillary Clinton partisans gleefully lied to everyone about her being shifted to the left by Sanders. Because liberals have no clear mechanism about how championing Clinton-Obama style capitalism is supposed to make things not-shitty without some positive black swan buttressing it. Hence my frequent snark about liberals apparently hoping for some technological innovation to pull their asses out of the fryer.
First of all, it’s not clear to most voters how the Democratic Party intends to make things better than Republicans. On the broad things that the Democratic Party champions (generic ‘increase the jobs!’ rhetoric, free trade, infrastructure spending) they Republican Party sounds exactly the same. On the specific things that the Democratic Party says that they will or could do that differs from the Republican Party (championing unionizing, entitlement spending, expansion of government jobs, deficit spending) they lower their voice. And on a couple of issues, such as tax policy or regulation, they’re either not credible or come off as worse than Republicans. Yes, if you get super-informed on the issues and do a broad min-max of policy initials and political history, the Democratic Party will come out substantially ahead of the Republicans. Guess what? Most people don’t min-max.
Second of all, it’s a loser cop-out argument. We make fun of libertarians constantly for refusing to take responsibility for their inadequacies, always with the excuse of ‘if we had more power/if they had implemented TRUE LIBERTARIANISM things would’ve turned out better’. I’m aware that defending the status quo is always easier than implementing change, thereby always giving the GOP the advantage regardless of seats, but the Democratic Party should not have to gain complete control of government to have success stories. What about state government success stories? What about pure executive branch success stories? We had quite a bit of them between 2008-2016, but the Democratic Party refuses to synthesize this into a coherent game plan.
Third of all, the Democratic Party is always going to be at an internal demographic disadvantage as long as it champions Clinton-Obama style capitalism. That is, multicultural meritocracy that’s indifferent (beyond lip service, of course)to household debts, income inequality, or unionization rates and champions market solutions (ACA, TPP, Clinton’s college debt plans, etc.) over government ones whenever possible. Capitalism in abstract, let alone specific Clinton-Obama style policies, polls anywhere from mediocre to poorly within our base. Aside from the fact that PoC are much less bullish on capitalism than whites, the youngest generation is red-as-hell. And it’s going to continue to get redder. Even if the Democratic Party managed to get a clean-sweep of government and implement more post-Mondale style economic policies, it’s not clear at all that it’d motivate enough people in our base to break the economics-induced political logjam.
Sanders has already convinced the DNC to work with him, to a considerable extent. If this is just flim-flam, we’ll soon know about. My guess is, the DNC understands by now that it simply can’t afford to ignore the demands and aspirations Sanders represents.
The followers will follow.
If I haven’t done so before, I want to thank you for your on-the-ground reports on the IA caucus. You informed others of what Sanders supporters should be on the lookout for in other states. Unfortunately when the voting begins there’s so little time to pivot resources to compensate for any potential repetitions.
Long forgotten, if it were ever noted at all by the Hill camp, was the DM Register request for the Dem caucus vote tallies. Rejected by the IA Dem party — presumably because they had nothing to hide.
I still think that their was vote theft in OH 2004, but also knew long before election day that unless the Democratic nominee could beat the limits of a theft spread (conservatively less than 2% but possibly up to 3%), there was nothing the party or candidate could do about it. Never expected that Kerry could beat the spread (a reason from me not to support him for the nomination), but it would still be nice to if Kerry won OH. Unlike FL 2000, a recount in OH wasn’t physically possible (also known in advance) and therefore, Kerry had nothing to gain in fighting the results.
That said, I’m not as inclined as you are to dismiss the ranks of “it was stolen” as denial. Sure, it’s inherent in losses when supporters are passionate and leads to overstating the case in locations where actual theft didn’t turn a win into a loss. OTOH, a single instance of denying, obstructing, or not facilitating a person’s right to vote is important. And not counting all the votes that people actually managed to cast is unconscionable. So, the cavalier attitude of the Hill camp that it doesn’t matter in Brooklyn or wherever separates those that are unyielding on the principle of the rights of people to vote and have their votes counted from those that only care when it hurts their candidate.
In the primary election process, it’s not only a matter of vote theft (by any of the many possible means) and the size of the theft but also where and when. Thus, this year, suppressing a mere 3,500 Sanders voters (used as an illustration based on IA Democratic party estimated attendance numbers and the caucus percentage results and know that only roughly translates into the number of actual voters) was more valuable to HRC’s campaign than an extra 100,000 voters in NY. Because of the usual outsize role the IA caucus play in the dynamics of the early stage of actual voting and voting attention.
For HRC as front-runner, IA was particularly vital as the loss in NH was set months earlier. A come back from a one-two loss (IA and NH) would have been thorny for her campaign. The size of her NH loss elevated the importance of the NV caucus. Was IA replicated in NV? Unknown. Denial by Bernie supporters? Possibly. Or maybe the saw or felt that all was not on the up and up. That gained credence with the obvious efforts to suppress Bernie delegate turnout for the Clark county convention which didn’t work because a higher percentage of HRC delegates didn’t show.
On March 1, a win by 17,000 votes out of 1.2 million votes was more valuable to HRC than her win by 460 thousand votes out of 1.4 million in TX. That made it much easier to dismiss and denigrate Bernie’s wins in smaller state primaries and caucus during that round of voting. (Also avoided questions as to why more MA voters showed up for HRC in 2008 than in 2016 and more showed up for Bernie than for Obama. A possibly very uncomfortable answer for the Democratic party.)
Winning fair and square — no hint of any rigging anywhere — isn’t merely some pie-in-the-sky purity thing. It’s integral to a candidate’s perceived legitimacy. Power doesn’t care if a win is granted by the Supreme Court or the ballot box. For rightwingers, no Democratic win is legitimate. But the majority of American prefer fair.
Hi Booman. I’m a long time lurker, but you don’t know me. For what it’s worth, despite a vocal minority of people here that may make it seem otherwise, you did managed to get at least me to not be demoralized and cynical about Sanders. The moment Sanders endorsed Clinton, if it wasn’t for your blog and your knowledge of the inside game, I would’ve thought Sanders betrayed his values and joined the “devil”. You kept me grounded to reality in the political sea of lies and hidden agendas and for that I thank you.
With that said, I’m still “iffy” on voting for Clinton, but I also see that it’s the only choice to make in a voting system of two realistic choices, especially when one of those choices is a bat-shit, narcissistic con-man who won’t give two cents about betraying the American people to line up his pockets with money, fame, and ego.
You write:
I question that conclusion regarding what Booman wants, and by extension the real aims of the entire DNC, Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama and the financial powers that run them. They most definitely want the Sanders supporters’ votes, but they oppose the stated aims of that group of people. Any acceptance of those aims in the platform is merely a vote-gathering tactic, and you can bet your bottom dollar that the day HRC accepts the presidency will be the day that those “socialist-ness” boards of said platform will be ripped up and essentially non-personed.
Disappeared.
HRC is a true believer in the neoliberal policies that were first put into play during Clinton I’s administration…multinational financial powers centered in the NATO countries maintaining control of the world’s economy by any means at their disposal (including endless wars if necessary), trade agreements that level the playing field of the world’s workers’ pay-per-hour to a survivalist mean no matter how that affects the citizens of the so-called “developed” countries, control of the (assumed to be less intelligent by the controllers) masses by financial means, etc, etc. etc.
But if Tip O’Neill’s “All politics is local” aphorism is true, “local” can mean individual countries just as easily as it does states, counties, towns and so on. And…the workers of the U.S. are beginning to smell a multinational rat behind all of the machinations of the Democrats. Thus the success of the Trump campaign.
We’ve heard it before. Now we are hearing it again. Only this time it has helped to produced a candidate with a much better chance of winning in Trump and a weaker candidate than FDR in HRC.
This is a growing, worldwide phenomenon. Brexit was the first really effective strike against economic globalism. I fear that Trump will be the second. Had the Democratic Party rejected HRC for a real “third way” candidate like Bernie Sanders, who knows what might have happened. But of course…it didn’t. It used its media power to (barely) stop his campaign in favor of the now well-established policies of Barack Obama, who was quite accurately tarred with the “neoliberal” epithet before most people had any idea what it meant.
Well…we certainly know what it means, now, don’t we.
And that’s just for starters.
The Dems are in the process of blowing it, and the Trump alternative is probably just as bad or worse.
Too bad.
Fasten your seatbelts. Either way it’s gonna be a rough, rough ride.
Bet on it.
AG
Now a standalone post.
Fools to the left of us, clowns to the right. And here we are, stuck in the middle and nearly broke.
Please comment there.
Thanks…
ASG
“They most definitely want the Sanders supporters’ votes, but they oppose the stated aims of that group of people.”
AG, I respect your opinion.
I do not think the establishment DNC has magically become deeply committed to what Sanders represents.
I do suspect that, for various pragmatic reasons, they are going to have to be a lot more attentive to them than they have been. And remember, something close to half the delegates at that convention are Sanders delegates.
If I am wrong, we will soon find out. But 1928 and 1932 were very different years, and 2016 already feels different to me than 2008 or 2012. But like I say, we’ll find out soon enough. I’m talkin TPP, for example.
If the GOP was able to ignore the warning signs of a herrenvolk rebellion until Trump made them lick the soles of his feet, why shouldn’t the Democratic Party cheerfully and smugly skip down the path of destruction? The idea that centrists are less myopically stupid than conservatives is laughable.
So….the exit polls weren’t rigged?
good one.
I’ve got to say, I was genuinely taken aback at your use of the Brooklyn primaries to support your argument. Irregularities in Brooklyn were among the worst in the country. I’m not suggesting all the lost votes would have gone to Sanders, I’m not saying Clinton wouldn’t have won anyway, but still, that was one fucked up primary.
but once again, the MSM gives a FAR more balanced account of than you did:
http://www.cnn.com/2016/04/19/politics/new-york-primary-voter-problem-polls-sanders-de-blasio/index.
html
Why are you taken aback?
You have an election tampering case where there is a small chance of simple human error, but the prime potential beneficiary of that tampering is Trump, then Sanders, and not Clinton at all.
And then you have a months long campaign to spear Clinton for winning the primary due to this tampering.
Why does it take you aback to read my “unbalanced” correction and critique of this poisonous psy-op against Clinton?
Has there been a study done of just who was eliminated from the voting rolls? If newer voters were eliminated that would favor Clinton. If people who registered as Democrats or switched to Democrats and then were switched to Independent by the registrar, that would hurt Sanders, not Clinton. And, thanks to HAPA, there are large stretches of our country where there is absolutely no way to prove whether or not your vote was electronically flipped after you cast it. Hooray democracy.
Then there was the money-laundering scheme for Clinton PACs that the DNC ran through state Democratic organizations.
Last winter when Amanda Marcotte et al at Salon were running with the Bernie Bros meme, it was merely the adaptation of 2008’s Obama Boys, but this time instead of covert racism her campaign contemplated covert anti-Semitism. Whether or not the idea leapt from the DNC to Hillary boosters in the media is moot. It was “in the air”.
You know, there are a lot of people who still think someone threw a chair in Nevada.
In short, while we can argue how much these disenfranchised voters affected the race or how Clinton supporters managed to win six straight coin flips in Iowa, the greater point is that the general belief Sanders was constantly getting screwed is firmly planted in actual realtime events of this past year.
If Sanders got 45% of the vote with the Democratic Party, mainstream media et al working against him, then the thing to glean from this race is that the Democratic Party is far to the right of a significant group of Democratic voters. Their candidates, having acquiesced to the increasing division of wealth over the last 25 years, have little appeal for independent voters. And basing a campaign strategy on the general public hating the other guy four percentage points more than they hate you is a pretty dismal campaign strategy.
But Imaad Zuberi is satisfied with the results. That is, as long as he’s not indicted.
Well, Steve M. lets us know downthread about a report on the Brooklyn disenfranchisement, which adds to the available body of evidence which strongly suggests Clinton lost more Brooklyn votes than Sanders.
Thanks for being curious to know the studies which have been done about this. It’s important that we construct our views based on established facts, and work to avoid injecting into our discussions incendiary innuendo which can allow one to make literally any wild number of claims they wish without having to provide evidence that their claims are true.
He said that more people over thirty were kicked off the polls. If it were more people over 65 were kicked off the polls your argument would be a lot stronger. Your argument would be even stronger if you could address the rest of my examples.
Priscianus, I’m amazed that you would use the word “balanced.” I don’t give a shit about “balance.” I care about accuracy.
Is Martin’s account accurate? That’s all that matters.
No. By being unbalanced, that is, by making more of certain less important (albeit striking) features than certain more important features, the whole picture becomes inaccurate.
Clearly Booman was angry at those people, and I can understand that. But anger can often lead to distortion. As I said, the MSM all reported the disturbances, but none of them narrativized the proceedings as a total shambles — which would have made great headlines.
Except that’s not really what happened. Some scary manifestations were eventually calmed by the predominant mood of the gathering.
prisanius jr, what BooMan is noting about the Brooklyn issue is how spotty voting problems across the nation have been taken by a particularly strident set of Sanders supporters/Hillary haters and shoehorned into the “rigged” narrative in very aggressive and damaging ways.
So, yes, I read the report you link here from April, and no one from the Sanders campaign is directly quoted at that time as claiming that the New York election was stolen from Sanders. But we had a comments thread at this very blog last night that referenced Brooklyn (and, even more bizarrely, California) as examples of how there were election shenanigans which prevented Sanders supporters from voting.
These people have internalized the idea that Sanders was disproportionately hurt by purposeful disenfranchisement actions. They got that idea from somewhere.
Now we have a circumstance where, when the Brooklyn and California voting issues are addressed rationally, and it is established that the arguments that these disenfranchisements almost certainly cost Clinton more votes than Sanders, Sanders supporters sometimes go to “Oh, so you don’t care about voters being disenfranchised!” And then, a few sentences later, some of these people claim Obama, Clinton and the DNC are complicit in the voter restrictions which have been passed in States under Republican control after a SCOTUS controlled by Republican nominees eviscerated Section 5 of the Voting Rights Act.
WHICH IS BULLSHIT!
When you start messing with dark claims about the integrity of the voting process and using it as a political weapon during a Presidential campaign, it is difficult to overstate how much fire you’re playing with.
Reform of election laws which empower voters and improving the performances of Registrars of Voters are issues which create no daylight between Sanders and Clinton supporters. Until it is claimed that these reforms and improvements are necessary to prevent the Democratic Party establishment from stealing elections. Doing that creates a ton of daylight, and it’s a damn shame.
There is no coherent, overall study of what happened across the country. I cannot tell you what happened in detail, who was responsible, or whose ox was gored. Next thing you’re going to tell me that DWS was completely evenhanded throughout, when even the MSM and the DNC have admitted that she wasn’t.
What I really meant was, I can’t understand how the results in Brooklyn and some other places can be considered accurate results of the wishes of the voters, many of whom were not allowed to vote.
What caused this, and what the actual results would have been, i do not know. But then, neither does Booman.
This is a reasonable position you are staking out here. The preponderance of the evidence favors BooMan’s position, but it is uncertain. Many are refusing to join you. Instead, they are outright claiming that Clinton, the DNC, and thousands of co-conspirators stole the nomination from Sanders, who won fair and square.
That the Sanders campaign does not and has not laid this claim, in specifics or in whole, does not dissuade these people. Hopefully it will.
These people are relatively few, but they are not a figment of our imaginations, and they are pure poison as long as they’re spilling this crap.
If you are around voter protection, you become aware of just how awful many voting processes are.
Most of it isn’t malicious – its just incompetent.
But the incompetence is a CT’s dream.
Steve D is pushing this stuff at Caucus99 – and it was enough to make me leave.
1 out of 3 self-identified Democrats consider Hillary Clinton untrustworthy.
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2016/images/07/25/trump.clinton.poll.pdf
Must be those Republican smear tactics.
Who wrote those emails…….Putin,blah,blah,blah……LOL
I find the Putin email thing almost comical. The US routinely has been overthrowing governments my entire life. But releasing actual emails where DNC players were plotting against Sanders, now that’s just not fair.
Yes. Who cares if Santa Claus released the emails? The point is they are true. Any attempt to bring up the issue with Putin (and you know I disagree with you snd Marie about Russia) is a distraction from the real content of the emails.
So, when will we be seeing the hacking of the Republican National Committee server and mass email release from RNC staffers? Look at this transparently ridiculous argument:
http://www.democracynow.org/2016/7/25/julian_assange_choosing_between_trump_or
Julian Assange: Choosing Between Trump or Clinton is Like Picking Between Cholera or Gonorrhea
Well, okay. But WikiLeaks isn’t trying to damage Cholera’s electoral prospects.
If Wikileaks and/or the agencies they are working with were to hack the servers of the Sanders campaign staff and vomit out their emails, they would reveal all kinds of extremely embarrassing things. But Assange doesn’t want to damage Sanders, so he won’t do it. And, quite apparently, he doesn’t want to damage Trump.
You’re being played.
This makes no sense to me.
Why should Russia wanting to damage the DNC or Clinton specifically matter? I’m not going to do something just because Russia does or doesn’t benefit. Why should the DNC get a pass on showing their neutrality was paper thin because not giving them one plays into Russias hands? Because Russia wants to just detractats from taking things on their merits.
As for Assange even if he hates America its for cause.
OK, let me be clearer.
By his actions, Assange is showing an interest in getting Trump elected. He has significant power, and is using it in an extremely intentional way.
He wants to get Trump elected. Trump’s policies and values appear to be antithetical to yours. Trump is establishing himself to be a mortal threat to a significant part of the liberal movement, people whose lives we claim to care about.
Are my concerns about this making sense now?
That always made sense, what doesn’t make sense is why this somehow makes it wrong to criticize the DNC.
The DNC in whole, and in particular the specific staffers who engaged in the controversial emails, must be criticized for what was revealed by the Wikileaks dump. Tossing Debbie Wasserman-Schultz out of the Chair position was necessary and long overdue.
What was revealed in the controversial emails did not determine who won the Democratic Party POTUS primary.
Assange/Wikileaks wants Donald Trump to win the election. It is most likely that the Russian government was involved in the hacking of the DNC server. The last claim is unproven at the moment.
These views sit side by side just fine.
Agreed the content of the emails weren’t what won or lost the election. So I guess I am in agreement with you?
Frankly while I disagree with his no difference riff, though based on what Obama admin might have done to him I see why he thinks that, guy’s right about corruption in general.
But Assange only seems to be concerned about laying support for claims of corruption against the Democratic Party, the major American Party which is eternally disadvantaged in fundraising.
And Assange gives a pass to the Party and political movement which has the easiest time raising tremendous amounts of money, the Party whose elected leaders are clearly much, much more corrupted by money. Julian makes a bit of credibility-maintaining noise about Trump and the Republicans being bad, but he isn’t trying to undermine their candidates or reveal their dirty laundry.
Millions are hearing about his email revelations, while a few thousand will hear his bone-tossing, relatively meaningless rhetoric about Trump.
Funny, these things.
Maybe Assange is trying to get Trump elected. Who is CNN trying to get elected? MSNBC? NBC? ABC? CBS? The New York Times? The Washington Post?
That poll has some interesting results. One question (#7) was: “If it were up to you, who would you rather see the Democratic Party choose as its nominee for president?”
The responses based upon registered Democrats & Independents who lean Democrats spell trouble for HRC at this point. HRC’s support decreases over time (49% now) and Sander’s support (45%) stays the same or increases. “Other” increases and I suspect the support is for Jill Stein. This indicates that 1/2 the Dems don’t support HRC. For comparison purposes, in 2008 Barack Obama had an average of 58% support and HRC 38%.
No one is talking about this, but YourGov had Clinton up 10 over Sanders, and CNN up only 4.
When you look at the cross-tabs, Clinton gets 54% of Sanders supporters in Yougov, and 64% in CNN.
In both Stein and Johnson combine for 20%+ of the vote.
The RCP 4-Way polling average sits at:
Clinton 40.4
Trump 40.2
Johnson 7.2
Stein 3.0
If Trump reversed numbers with Clinton and won the election, with Johnson and Stein remaining unchanged, what would you like to bet that Democrats would blame Stein and not Johnson for Hillary’s loss?
Yes, the Republican smear tactics have been very effective. Hillary is actually the MOST honest candidate in 2016, more honest even than Bernie. Yet the right-wing wurlizter has the media and most of the population dancing to their tune. You too, it seems.
No, it was Putin. Let’s wipe that smirk off his face. This time it’s personal. The Ruskies made me hear bad things about the DNC.
I don’t mind about the Russkies making me hear bad things about the DNC. I already knew those things anyway, they just proved it.
I AM concerned about the Russkies trying to help Trump. Especially since there are already many connections between Trump and the Russkies.
http://www.nola.com/politics/index.ssf/2016/06/donald_trump_vladimir_putin.html
(scroll down for lots of specifics about Trump’s business ventures and connections in Russia)
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2016/04/paul_manafort_isn_t_a_gop_retread_h
e_s_made_a_career_of_reinventing_tyrants.html
https://www.facebook.com/NoNoNanetteWhite/posts/10206635292783188 (paste into address box]
I don’t know if the Russkies want Trump but it’s pretty obvious that they don’t want Clinton. Why? Because she’s a prime disciple of the neoliberal “Rollback” theology.
Who would you want? The guy who is a screwup and a liar or the woman who promises war (economic and military) against you?
Does anyone not think that Hillary and her staff never read, say, emails from pre-coup Honduras? Does anyone not remember the NSA, or the sins of the CIA?
I make no reference to my views about Clinton when if I say that Trump, for Putin, would be like a puppet on a string.
By the way, Bob, with all your “extreme” views and rather vigorous ways of expressing them, the thing I truly disagree with you about is Putin.
Putin’s Russia,not Ukraine, is one of the centers of world fascism today.
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2014/03/20/fascism-russia-and-ukraine/
Ukraine is run by fascists no matter how much you hate Putin. And our corporatist system in far simpler times would have been branded as fascist. Our military is marching across the globe to gain control of energy resources. Not unlike Japan seizing Indonesia or Germany in Romania.
Old whine, new bottle.
Never expected almost fifty years on to still get the “pinko, commie, shut up, grow up you stupid kids, …” from “liberals” (cough, cough). As if being a liberal means accepting corruption, wars for fun, profit, and oil, and democracy only means who has the most bucks, the most power, and best PR and ballot box stuffing operations. So, guess I was naive.
But who knew that Kissinger would still be around and infecting both political parties?
This! Well said, especially re (shudder) old evil Henry the K.
As they say: the good die young. The evil ones hang around and around and around – guess no one wants ’em, either upstairs or downstairs.
When I was a Democrat, I assumed that one was a Democrat because one was progressive. When Obama executed an American citizen without trial and Democrats barely paid attention, I understood my error. (Thanks, Obama.)
One is a Democrat because that is one’s tribe. And loyalty to the tribe is all that matters – same as the Republicans, no better and no worse.
And when I left the tribe, I found that most Democrats actually hate progressives. Judging from their repeated insults about “purity”, they seem to find our existence some kind of reproach.
So true.
Well of course they do. That’s because Democrats understand that winning means you will have to govern as well.
“Progressives” would never sully their hands in such a dirty business.
you really think your comments contribute to the discussion? or you just admiring your clever vitriol. kindergarten stuff, or maybe nursery school
Yes, all the vitriol is coming from evil Democrats who hate progressives.
None of it is directed at the evil Democrats who hate progressives.
Give me a fucking break.
I also would suggest the need for this Sanders-supporter bashing betrays a deep insecurity about your candidate.
If it was really about winning, they’d be hastily retooling their platform to better fit must-have demographics. But they insist on a pure, unyielding pie-in-the-sky toxic mixture of social liberalism + economic centrism despite the fact that it led to disasters/Pyrrhic victories in 2010, 2014, and is projected to lead us to the same place in 2018 and 2020.
Centrists are bigger purity trolls and are more pigheaded and self-righteous about their unpopular platform than the friggin’ religious right. So, no. They don’t care about winning.
Nice psychological projection, though.
“When Obama executed an American citizen without trial and Democrats barely paid attention, I understood my error. (Thanks, Obama.)”
While I may have issue with some policies of the current admin, this is a specious argument.
Ask Will. Bonney, John Dillinger, Charles Floyd, Bonnie and Clyde, the SLA, The Move movement, Koresch and any number of would be ganstas. The US has never had any problem executing “public enemies” if they are a danger to public order and safety. US citizens or not. The only difference is the weapons used. Revolvers, rifles, bombs, or ground to air missiles half a world away.
“Old whine, new bottle”
This is exactly right. Everyone is acting horrified that members of the Democratic Party are disagreeing with each other. My god, get the smelling salts.
This round with the Clintons and their tools in the media seem like they want a coronation with nary a dissenting voice. Well, boo-fu***-hoo. And the “Republican” attitude for regimentation is exhibited at multiple, so called, progressive sites. All at the same time. As if coordinated. Sometimes you have to wonder what position for “social media outreach” has been promised.
At least the dissenters aren’t using clubs or tar and feathers like previous political conventions. Politics used to be a blood sport. While there may not be so much now, its still a struggle for apportioning scarce resources. Party against Party, Inter party factions against others. That is the basis of political campaigns.
R
We’ve advanced/evolved. Blood and tar and feathers are now virtual and metaphorical. But that doesn’t mean that we’re more sophisticated or effective.
Marriage therapists know that one of the worst signs for a couple to stay together is that they don’t fight. The censor themselves and nothing gets out in the open and therefore, can’t be resolved. That conflict is bad, comity is substituted for passion, and a deadened, hollowed out relationship is preferable to no relationship as all. Until one of them can no longer breathe without gasping for air.
I don’t remember a Democratic Convention that there wasn’t dissent. Sometimes its destructive, sometimes not. One of the supposed qualities of the nominee is to bridge the gap between wings of the party. HRC’s negatives “within” the party hinders that important role. And despite all the acting from HRC camp, nothing Sanders said during the campaign boosted those negatives; they were already there and part of her political legacy.
So no surprise that there are strong passions; but I can’t stand the hypocrisy of either horror or condescension (yes, you Silverman).
R
If anything, Sanders approach of sticking to the issues didn’t draw out HRC’s worst impulses and that helped her maintain an appearance of dignity (that she did lose a few times in ’08 even though Obama mostly treated her with kid gloves as well).
Authentic liberal Democrats or progressives don’t like voting for Democrats that share either cultural or economic positions with Republicans. Particularly don’t like it when such Democrats punch “liberals” harder and more often than they do Republicans and act as if they are entitled to the votes of all Democrats. Many more of whom today than in the past can no longer stand being formally aligned with the DP via voter registration.
Much of the problem with Sanders supporters and especially Sanders delegates is that they don’t come out of Democratic politics, but out of left-wing protest movements.
Oh, I see. That’s the “problem.”
Why how nice to know.
Ah, read Yglesias did you?
At our state convention we rejected Bernie’s suggested candidates (a few people got royally pissed that he even suggested them which surprised me). A lot our criteria was that at the national convention the delegates wouldn’t knuckle under and meekly vote HRC in some show of unity during the actual vote. If HRC won she won, but to pretend it unanimous is a complete falsehood that cannot happen.
This had a negative effect of making things go so long that we didnt get to choose state directors so we lost a great chance to move the local party leftward. Though we did push through over the repeated objections both substantive and procedural of the HRC backers a proposal for our super delegates to consider voting for the winner of the state caucus and to abolish super delegates all together. And now the national group is actually looking into changing the super delegate process.
It is unanimous. Sanders and Warren are now solid Clinton boosters. The 99% are screwed again.
Voice, you’re probably not going to believe me, but it’s not that simple. Bernie and Elizabeth Warren are not babes in the woods. By supporting her, they have also vastly increased their leverage with her.
At the end of the day, if HRC wins the election, she will owe it mainly to Sanders, Warren, and their allies. And she knows that.
This is what happened in three states I am familiar with: Florida, New Hampshire and New York.
You could split the Bernie delegates in thirds:
I have to laugh at all of this. My first State Convention was in Vermont in 1984. The Jackson people took over the delegation and elected a Marxist as State chair. Who basically was gone after 1985 anyway. The Jackson people were Bernie people – most weren’t Democrats.
What do you nean by laugh, that putting Bernie supporters in there won’t natter?
No – that in 1984 the Bernie people were as disruptive at the Vermont State Party Convention as they are in Philadelphia.
I remember Madeline Kunin – who would become Governor – being booed when she spoke up for Mondale.
Democrats who come out of Goldman Sachs, or the Pentagon, are generally much more behaved in public.
Those damned commies again.
The understatement of the campaign so far:
Thank you, Booman.
I almost spilled my coffee laughing.
AG
Yup, Mr. Everything Is a Plot is serenely unconcerned about the plots to spread this misinformation and poison progressives against Clinton for all the wrong reasons.
Gee, Boo, did you just call that man a “conspiracy theorist”?
Was laundering money through 32 state Democratic parties a conspiracy theory? Or was it just some clever banking? There must be a lot of fans of clever banking because Wall Street is unindictable.
So let’s hear the diabolical plots from the left against Clinton. Did Sanders supporters supply the coins in Iowa?
If you came through this campaign and didn’t feel the filth and corruption, you need to change your caregiver. More showers.
He feels it, Bob. Booman’s not stupid. He is willfully ignoring it. Why? At best, it’s because he really thinks that’s the only practical thing to do.
At worst?
At worst…he’s simply given up.
I dunno where he really lays on that spectrum of possibilities, but I do know where I lay.
Off the fucking grid.
Bet on it.
There is always a third possibility in all things, but we only have two parties. Eliminate…or co-opt…that practical third possibility and you are back in the two-dimensional, cartoon world of the media.
The media are flat earthers, politically. No matter what happens, they are most afraid of falling off the edge. A very wise man once told me to “Jump off the cliff in the full belief that you will fall up.” They cannot do that.
Mortgages and stuff, don’tcha ‘know…
So it goes.
Down like a motherfucker.
So it goes.
AG
Bob, if you want to know why you’re getting banned all over the place, it’s because of comments like this one. It’s you. It’s not anyone else. You’re provoking people into banning you simply because they don’t want to respond this drivel.
I encourage you to show more discipline.
This drivel?
[Gee, Boo, did you just call that man a “conspiracy theorist”?
Was laundering money through 32 state Democratic parties a conspiracy theory? Or was it just some clever banking? There must be a lot of fans of clever banking because Wall Street is unindictable.]
You don’t want to answer about the DNC laundering money through the state Democratic Parties? I understand. It was a pretty corrupt thing and is hard to defend. And it illuminates the Clinton connection with the ultra rich.
Yeah, I know. People don’t want to talk about Obama’s Nazis in Ukraine, or Hillary’s plan to shoot Russian jets. It’s understandable. It confuses the narrative.
As far as who is being manipulated, when you wake up in the morning you are being manipulated. Listen to sports talk. They’re manipulating you, and don’t think that politics doesn’t leak in there. You’re being manipulated at cocktail parties, reading the morning paper, looking at the internet.
Just as Sanders supporters are being manipulated so are Trump supporters. And so are Clinton supporters. You are at some level not just a reporter of facts. You take a position and argue. Your commenters comment on your posts. They are trying to manipulate other readers, maybe even you.
Was it the line about caregivers? My 90 year-old mother has recently lost control of her bowels. Maybe that’s been on my mind.
Not “unconcerned,” Booman. Quite the opposite. Very concerned!!! The entire system is rotted out. Spy vs. Spy. Lie vs. lie. Enough to make Diogenes give up his search for an honest man or woman.
Dems vs. RatPubs?
Centrists vs. leftinesses vs. who knows what?
Like dat.
AG
What movement? There is no movement anymore. There is only Clinton and her Goldman-Sachs masters as they offer faux liberalism and sell their own country to the corporations.
Can’t wait until H. Clinton pays back Putin for maybe, possibly, according to our unnamed sources, based on something or other, for actually hacking the DNC emails.
Further information keeps coming out, not in the American press, but out there, that some of the units who participated in the coup were under NATO control. NATO refueling planes serviced the jets that bombed Ankara and shot people in the streets. According to rumors Russia tipped off Erdogan over the coup.
Apparently, Turkish aid for ISIS and the various name-changing al Qaeda groups is being cut off. Whether or not Gulen and his ilk had anything to do with the coup is immaterial right now. Erdogan has demanded this man’s extradition. How do you think that will affect Hillary’s no-fly zone? How will this political readjustment regarding US moves to cut off Russian gas to Southern Europe? How does that affect her desire to liberate Crimea?
While hope for a more democratic, more peaceful regime at home has suffered with Clinton’s advancement, peace in Syria might well happen thanks to the failed coup.
The coup in Turkey.
Failed? Erdoogan is thrilled. He called it a “gift from God.”
Yes, the coup failed. There was some early speculation, based on the limited and sketchy available information that is was an Erdogan false flag. That hypothesis has now been junked because additional information that has come to light is not confirmatory and Erdogan is not powerful nor slick enough to have pulled it off without leaving any footprints.
The fact that Erdogan is effectively exploiting a failed coup doesn’t change the fact that the coup failed. He’s thrilled because it played right into his strengths and gave him a huge opportunity to rid himself of troublesome factions that were previously difficult to oust.
9/11 was a GWB administration failure. And they were thrilled about it. Didn’t miss a beat in exploiting it to their own advantage. Pulled that Patriot Act sitting on the shelf just waiting for that moment that would grease the skids through Congress.
You know, I am frequently amazed at how the American people forget their country’s sins.
Remember the NSA listening in? Giant data gobbles? Does anyone doubt that US intelligence tries to crash every strategic internet communication in the world?
It is a curious strategy from Clinton’s camp, to blame it all on Putin and Trump and ignoring the content.
Do you think that Clinton listened in on communications in Honduras before the coup there? How about before the attempted coup in Turkey? What about the disabling of the computers handling Iran’s nuclear program?
If anyone gets worked up over the possibility that hackers in the FSB got into the DNC computers they should determine whether or not our behavior is any better.
Plus, the quality of evidence that the Russians did it doesn’t even match what the NFL used against Brady.
In any case, another sign where the next war will be. Enjoy.
What the emails say is one subject, and one that I addressed in this piece. They say something, but they don’t validate the already seeded belief that Clinton stole the nomination.
Educate yourself about why Trump takes the policy positions he does vis-a-vis Russia and why Putin is so interested in handing our government over to a poor man’s Berlusconi.
Elsewhere I suggest some things to point out that it was never an even playing field. Have you addressed the money-laundering scam with 32 state Democratic parties yet?
Trump is like Mussolini. There’s a .gif floating around that switches between Il Duce and the Donald. But Obama used neo-Nazi fascists to overthrow the elected government of Ukraine. Are people who salute Hitler and jabber about the international Jewish-Russian conspiracy better than someone who resembles Mussolini?
While I appreciate you wanting me to educate myself on Trump, whom I’d never vote for, would it be rude for me to suggest that the US’s seventy-year history with OUN/B and its splinter groups might actually be worse? And our boosterism of East European fascists to steer their governments to the west is now bipartisan. No one is outraged at using Nazis for national goals anymore, and I guess that makes for more congenial meetings at the NED.
You seem to regurgitating Putinist talking points, which is a grade below spewing LaRouchian talking points.
You cannot simply discover Nazis among the Ukrainian nationalists and decide you understand the conflict.
If you’re Ukrainian, it’s a good bet that you’d rather live in a country that resembles Germany than one that is dominated by Putin’s Russia. Unless, of course, you’re a masochist or actually ethnically Russian and not too fond of actual Ukrainians.
You haven’t got it all figured out, Bob.
Putin is being prepared to be served as the next neoliberal meal. So if someone points out that that Saddam Hussein doesn’t really have WMDs and can’t really bomb London in 45 minutes that would be Saddamian propaganda? How about if someone in 1965 pointed out that the Gulf of Tonkin incident was a lie, a created pretext to allow the US to kill a million Vietnamese? Would that be Ho Chi Minhian propaganda? When Valentine wrote his book about the Phoenix Program did that make the cover story about My Lai a lie? No, because it was never repeated in the mainstream media.
I didn’t just find out about the Nazis in Ukraine. I’ve known about our relationship with Nazis, both old ones from WWII and news ones, close to thirty years ago. And it’s been going on for seventy years.
If you’re a Ukrainian your country doesn’t resemble either Germany or Russia. Parts of it resemble Syria, parts of it will resemble Monsanto plantations if the whole country doesn’t collapse. Maybe if it does.
That was a coup against a legally elected government, and subsequent to that Nazis burned people to death in Odessa. What country did that resemble? How about shelling hospitals and schools? How does that stack up against Putin maybe, perhaps releasing actually DNC emails? Or the million or billions of electronic communications that go through our intelligence strainers every day?
FInally, your comment here points to a problem, maybe the problem: “You haven’t got it all figured out.” I notice right before I’m banned there’s usually a comment about what a smartypants I am. I am not all-knowing but I talk about things that aren’t talked about in polite circles.
Napoleon said, probably after his final exile, “History is a series of agreed upon lies.” (No doubt he said it in French.)
When I was young I was accused of something I did not do. I have a need to tell the other side of the story, because when truth is one-sided it’s usually a lie.
Yesterday I got outraged because you made a joke regarding a presidential assassination. The JFK assassination is a big fat lie that hovers over all American politics and by extension over the world. Yesterday I asked why someone was impersonating Oswald in Mexico City a month and a half before the assassination in front of CIA cameras. Why, Boo? No one can answer the question because they know it will point to that cloud overhead. You know, I know, Marie knows at some level, Arthur knows, anyone who gives a minute’s thought about it knows. I prefer to not have to lie to myself. That doesn’t mean I can’t get something wrong.
When Mort Sahl worked with Garrison back in the late sixties his career ended. Not unlike being banned from a website. Sahl asked in his book about that period: “How long can you live inside a lie until you become part of the lie?”
“Anyone who gives a minute’s thought about it knows”
What you’re doing here rhetorically, Bob, is setting yourself up as the Last Honest Man. Yet somehow stuff that you consider blindingly obvious is not. You blame people for failing to read the stuff you consider incontrovertible proof. This is the same line of argument that Alex Jones uses.
How about instead of making an ad hominem, you pick out the parts in his post that were false? That’d be much more convincing than just going ‘durr, Alex Jones’.
I already see a few fishy points in his post. But I’m wondering if you’re able to pick them out.
How about instead of making an ad hominem, you pick out the parts in his post that were false? That’d be much more convincing than just going ‘durr, Alex Jones’.
I already see a few fishy points in his post. But I’m wondering if you’re able to pick them out.
Not Nazis among the Ukrainians? News to me. What are those right wing parties? They played no part in the overthrow of the government?
“… don’t validate the already seeded belief that Clinton stole the nomination. “
No, they merely validate the belief that the DNC was partial to Clinton during the primary contest.
Clinton has a role to play to bring the Bernie hold outs back to the party – – or not. It is her choice. It seems to me Bernie did his best last night. Maybe you think he should have done more. OK. But he has a lot of passionate people supporting him. They need some respect and to believe there is still a path forward. He tried to give them that and remind them of the goodness of their cause and what they had accomplished. In the end the party platform is a bucket of warm spit unless Clinton embraces it.
I think the biggest reason to support her now is the supreme court justices, although I still hold out hope she will adopt some of Bernie’s policies. And that I will do. But I still do not trust her, nor her foreign policy, when she wants to set up a no fly zone in Syria, and she associates with PNAC and the Kagans. I am still trying to understand why she is better than Trump on that score.
Trump, on the other hand, is a nut case, truly – and extremely narcissistic and a sociopath. The man is evil or close to it. Sarah Silverman said it right. It is ridiculous to put on a temper tantrum in face of that.
DWS and the Clintons put their fingers on the scale, still they won it in impressive fashion. So those fingers were not needed. In fact it is likely to come back on her during the campaign along with the other baggage about the e mails. It is good that DWS is gone.
Yeah, Bernie gave a very nice speech last night, and I mean that.
Otherwise, he didn’t do shite. Since when does the loser get to dictate to the platform committee? When does the loser get to put a waste of space like Cornel West on it, only to have him shit all over the winner? Yeah, the creator of the line that Obama had been “niggerized,” that guy. What an exemplar of progressive thought. What an overpaid, underworked hack. What an insult to Democrats.
Sanders knew for weeks what his goons were capable of, and did virtually nothing to rein them in. Anyone could see that the Children’s Crusade had become a bunch of unguided missiles, and he didn’t do squat. Just look at Nevada. And no, I’m not talking about “throwing chairs.” I’m talking about acting like you don’t eat with your hands.
One nice speech doesn’t make up for reckless management of his cohort.
You ask:
Since the “loser” holds enough potential votes to turn the election, of course.
Duh.
And…as I have said elsewhere…what is on “the platform” is not necessarily what the winner will do once elected. Look at the history of our present hope and change Peace President for all you need to know on that account.
Duh twice!!!
This convention? It’s called a political convention, right? So what is it all about? Politics, of course. And what is politics all about? Winning. Like war. All’s fair that works. There are literally trillions of dollars at stake here…dollars that can be controlled for use essentially as patronage.
I was (
unfortunate)…errr, ahhh…fortunate enough to be working as a musician at one of the B list celebration parties in DC when Bush II won the first election. I watched. I listened. I felt. The parties…big ones in huge federal DC buildings…were about nothing more than naked greed. A new crew had taken over and the patronage dollars were going to flow to new people. Job dollars. Contract dollars.Huge lobbyist dollars. Raw power!!! And these were the bureaucratic functionaries. Imagine the greedy joy of the real movers and shakers!!!Like dat.
AG
The loser gets to influence the platform when he has accumulated a substantial number of votes, and when the winner believes there is some benefit to bring in the losing group. Otherwise she stands to risk a nasty rebellion. But that is her call. She could just as easily told him to take a hike — and he or she still could.
I don’t buy your characterization of Sanders, in fact I am upset about it. Your attitude is the sort of thing that will drive voters away. There are fringe players in all campaigns. And Bernie could have some since his was an insurgent campaign that no one expected to go anywhere. You seem to have taken a count of them and decided Bernie promoted them, while the Clinton campaign is blameless.
As we both know the platform means little unless Hillary wants it to or wants some part of it.
Oh, for fuck’s sake.
“Only” the debates – ppl outside the E Coast had never heard of Bernie Sanders. Not saying he’d have won, just saying the fact that DNC made sure ppl knew as little about him as possible affected the numbers.
Agree with this post 100%. Which is why I was so disappointed that Booman Tribune allowed Steven D to post his preposterous diaries about the primary being rigged based on exit poll data.
Those diaries were not widely viewed, and I understand that Steven is a longtime friend, but allowing that toxicity to spread is what leads to delegates booing Cory Booker as he discusses victims of violence, or chanting about TPP while progressive champions like Elijah Cummings are speaking.
Yes, all opposition must be silenced!
Just saying that if you run a blog, nothing wrong with exercising editorial control and keeping blatant lies and crackpot conspiracy theories from being published.
But hey — Booman can fill this blog with such posts if he wants! It’s a free country! Good luck keeping rational readers around if that’s the case.
Thank you for this — and please note WNYC’s follow-up, from which we learn that the purged voters in Brooklyn were disproportionately people over 30. If you were trying to hurt Sanders, why the hell would you exempt the youth vote from your purge?
Sshhh. You’ll make them cry.
You recognize the importance of under-30 voters (often frst-time voters) and independent voters to the Sanders campaign. Well, New York has a closed primary.
Granted, this is perfectly legal.
Only sixteen states + DC have closed primaries:
Arizona, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Florida, Hawaii, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maryland, Nebraska, New Mexico, New York, Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania, and South Dakota.
Sanders did well in a few of these states, CO, HI, NE, OK, OR, but in most of them he did quite badly: AZ, CT, DE, FL, KY, LA, MD, NM, NY, PA, SD. Some were caucus states, which complicates the comparison.
The question, why should people not registered with a party be allowed to participate in that party’s primary, the answer is that more people are independent than are affiliated with either major party. And these are precisely the kind of voters who would tend to go for Sanders.
Be very curious to see what indies soar to after THIS election. lol
I don’t know why you’re on my case about this. I don’t disagree with you.
As for the Republicans, yes, I was thinking of the rank and file. Polls have shown that they dislike it as well.
http://billmoyers.com/2014/11/21/majority-americans-want-money-politics/
But the truth is (although it’s not my problem), Citizens United has not been good for the Republican Party. The mess they are in was greatly exacerbated by CU.
http://www.newsweek.com/2016/03/18/dark-money-boomerang-republican-party-434499.html
Your point that money was already doing a lot of harm in politics before CU is true. When it comes to repealing CU, that will be a good opportunity to go further in getting big money out of politics.
As an atheist, I would boo at all fools proposing that magical beings do anything. Freak show.
As for the rest, I think it ought to be clear by now that a good portion of the public hold the political “establishment” in contempt. The outsiders supporting Sanders were, perhaps, simply reflecting this contempt. I don’t find much to recommend any of those speakers today even if some were principled and righteous people before their involvement in the political system.
These people need to understand that they have failed the country. There is no nice way to say that. I’m glad that some of the delegates had the guts to do it.
The democratic party does not get a free pass just because Trump is the alternative. We can and should still hold them accountable for the corrupt system they inhabit.