Jonathan Haidt, a social psychologist and professor in the Business and Society Program at New York University, has an interesting and valuable essay in the The American Interest about the different ways in which nationalists and globalists experience growing diversity and multiculturalism. It’s really addressed to multiculturalists, not as a rebuke to their values exactly but as a warning to go slow to avoid producing a right-wing backlash strong enough to lead to a kind of fascist counterrevolution.
What’s missing from the piece is a recognition that a good chunk of the so-called globalists are in favor of a multicultural society but still strongly opposed to free trade. It’s almost as if he didn’t notice all the anti-TPP signs at the Democratic National Convention. Yet, opposition to the Trans-Pacific Partnership was probably the most visible policy position among the rank-and-file in Philadelphia, which explains why both Clinton and Sanders have come out against it in more of a visceral than a nuanced or fact-driven way. On the left, anyone who wishes to discuss the TPP is actually least likely to brook any debate about the details. Any evidence of anything less than deep moral opposition to TPP is immediately suspicious, possibly fatally so for a politician. When the Republicans did a post-2012 autopsy on why they lost the election, they noted that young people wouldn’t listen to a word Republicans said about the economy or anything else if they didn’t relax their opposition to gay rights. Something similar has happened on the left on free trade.
This seems a pretty basic failure of Prof. Haidt’s piece, but that doesn’t mean that reading it isn’t a good investment of your time. He does better at explaining how nationalists think and under which circumstances they become enraged and dangerous. He does an excellent job of explaining how multiculturalists make a mistake when they ascribe simple racism as an adequate explanation for this backlash. And his prescription (for the benefit of a healthy multicultural society) to go slow and let people digest demographic change in manageable chunks, is compelling despite the temptation to see it as an appeasement of reactionary intolerance.
I often mused along these lines when considering how the country would respond differently to a Sanders or Clinton nomination and presidency. If incrementalism is dissatisfying, it is also less provocative. If close to half the country is in a state of apoplexy about the new reality where Barack Obama can easily win elections on the backs of a young and diverse slice of the electorate, then maybe proving to them that the left can elect an anti-capitalist, secular Jew from Brooklyn with no identifiable religious belief would be like pouring gasoline on a fire. Should the left care about the consequences of a fire like that, or is avoiding it an act of cowardice and kowtowing to bigots? Yet, maybe even having our first woman president is enough to move things into a full-blown cultural conflagration.
What I’m fairly confident about is that there is a fire and that it is dangerous. If, like the National Forestry Service, leaders can keep this fire at a slow, controlled burn, we should all be okay. But, as Prof. Haidt explains, if the cause of the fire is continuously misdiagnosed and it is carelessly fed with more tinder, we could see more than a backlash. We could see the fascist right come to power.
Status quo conservatives are not natural allies of authoritarians, who often favor radical change and are willing to take big risks to implement untested policies. This is why so many Republicans—and nearly all conservative intellectuals—oppose Donald Trump; he is simply not a conservative by the test of temperament or values. But status quo conservatives can be drawn into alliance with authoritarians when they perceive that progressives have subverted the country’s traditions and identity so badly that dramatic political actions (such as Brexit, or banning Muslim immigration to the United States) are seen as the only remaining way of yelling “Stop!” Brexit can seem less radical than the prospect of absorption into the “ever closer union” of the EU.
Again, this is all complicated by the trade issue and jobs. When the Globalists lose the left on trade, they lose the power and deference to implement their immigration policies in the bargain. Going slower on immigration isn’t so much a choice as a fact in those circumstances. If the nationalist right needs to see that their fears are being respected, so, too does the multicultural left need to see that their concern about income inequality is being addressed. These are pieces in the same puzzle, and things will continue to come apart if wise leadership doesn’t emerge that can keep both balls in the air at the same time.
And I speak about leadership because it’s basically hopeless to argue with the right about the merits of multiculturalism or with the left about trade. They don’t need to be convinced because they cannot be convinced. What they need are leaders who can navigate them to a new social and economic order that works better for them that what we have now. Those leaders, if they are to be effective, will not be ideologues from either side, but visionaries who can see a broader picture and guide a truculent and terrified Congress to make the right decisions.
“On the left, anyone who wishes to discuss the TPP is actually least likely to brook any debate about the details.
WHUT? It is teh proponents who are averse to discussing the DETAILS. “Just trust us.” Again.
These bills are more about elevating corporate governance above local and national decisions than they ever were about trade. That is where the national vs global dominance comes it.
I literally cannot believe my eyes at what is being spun here. You know, it is not blind prejudice, Booman. It is LEARNED distrust in the working class who SAW their jobs packed up and sent off.
And most of the anti-trade LEFT is not anti-immigration, you know.
There’s an element of kneejerk opposition. I don’t know shit about the TPP, despite having Read a Few Things; I’m opposed simply because one of the lessons I learned from the Iraq invasion is that, to my dismay, people on my left are correct far more often than I am. So if the nutty lefties are against it and the reasonable New York Times is for it …
LOL TPP is not even the worst of the three. Clinton has been totally silent on the other two.
http://www.politico.eu/article/the-most-important-free-trade-agreement-youve-never-heard-of/
Also this…
The Scariest Trade Deal Nobody’s Talking About Just Suffered a Big Leak
BY DAVID DAYEN
https://newrepublic.com/article/121967/whats-really-going-trade-services-agreement
Mino’s response is typical.
The TPP is a geopolitical aspect of the Asia pivot designed primarily to create a U.S.-orientated trade zone that can act as a buffer to Chinese economic/cultural/military expansionism/influence in the region.
Obama doesn’t care about all the dotted i’s and crossed t’s in the agreement, and that’s because it’s really about something else entirely.
The merits of his approach and his reasons for approaching it this way are never discussed. It’s been my opinion for a long time that he never really expected the thing to pass (although he hoped it would and had to operate as if it would), but he pursued it anyway because it keeps the involved countries at the table and committed to a collective future in alignment with the West.
To focus exclusively on how it affects corporations, the 1%, or any particular industry is to miss why it is even being proposed, which seems to me to be no debate at all.
That’s not to say that the bill/treaty should be supported, but it is often opposed for ludicrous reasons, like that it isn’t negotiable, that ignores the way trade deals must be done in practice.
I neither support nor oppose the treaty as it exists and think there are defensible arguments on both sides. Were I tasked with voting on it, I’d spend as much time talking to the administration, the State Department, foreign leaders of the countries involved, our Defense Dept, and intelligence agencies as I would spend talking to trade specialists, academics, union leaders, and other anti-globalism thought leaders. And then I’d look at the i’s and the t’s.
And only then would I cast my vote.
But I’m suspect if I don’t just yell “One percent” and accuse the president of trying to sell our sovereignty to a multinational corporate court.
“he pursued it anyway because it keeps the involved countries at the table and committed to a collective future in alignment with the West. “
Thank you. Finally, someone who looks at the big picture.
If the folks in charge of these deals want public support they have to earn it.
I see little to no effort to do so. Muscling these deals through on fast track, etc. doesn’t help the optics or the understanding.
A very successful and visionary entrepreneur once shared a pretty valuable concept that the supporters of all these deals should consider:
“Winning is not selling. “
The point is that you can ‘win an argument’ but that doesn’t mean you’ll ‘get the sale’ if the customer loses the argument but they haven’t been persuaded to give you their money.
Free traders are winning but they aren’t making the sale.
I am sure all the corporate negotiators had “trade zone buffers” in mind when designing their perks. You just admitted you are assigning fault to me without any proof on your part it is unjustified.
When do you think you will get around to looking into the three? Where is any detail of YOUR assertions? Where are the DoD, State, intelligence agencies papers on why they should pass, other than “Asia Pivot”?? What is in it for us to justify all the stuff that we know hurts us?
All are ignorant knee-jerks, I guess:
And an unprecedented array of organizations have joined together in a powerful and diverse coalition to stop the TPP. Groups united on this extend well beyond labor unions and include consumer, Internet freedom, senior, health, food safety, environmental, human rights, faith, LGBTQ, student and civil rights organizations. Opposition to the TPP is growing at home and in many of the other countries involved. (Oh, Greenpeace is in there, too.)
That doesn’t work for me. If you really don’t care about the details or that it will ever pass you are, at a minimum, ignoring or rather using your partners, the very ones you want on your side. And worse, you are messing with a trade bill that has serious disagreement in your own party and among the Trumpsters. See, for example, an opinion piece in the NY Times yesterday about some Trump folks in Kentucky and the connection between guns and Nafta. In the end this is about what people feel about it. Not exactly rational but when no one bothers to ever discuss it other than a few lefty places and given the bad press what can you expect? There is widespread belief this will destroy jobs and subject our laws to some damn international tribunal, while enriching drug, tobacco and other corporation interests. Wonderful.
I stopped reading Haidt’s essay, I can’t bear the ugliness and fascist undertones in his arguments. Especially where he described the moral dilemma of Europe to take in refugees from Syria. This is so morally corrupt, I can’t bear it. European law is based on universal and international law for refugees. Period! Stop the bloody wars in the greater Middle East! Stop Erdogan, the fascist in Turkey who uses the refugees to bribe the EU to restart negotiations for membership.
See my full reply in a new diary …
○ The anti-capitalist, secular Jew from Brooklyn
While at it, do read my previous diary too …
○ The Fail of Neoliberalism, Brexit and the Corbyn Attack by Labour
Thanks to the British and Brexit vote, Europe won’t sign any form of the TTIP agreement within next 2 years.
Paul Krugman:
“Democrats are torn individually (a state I share). On one side, they favor helping those in need, which inclines them to look sympathetically on immigrants; plus they’re relatively open to a multicultural, multiracial society. I know that when I look at today’s Mexicans and Central Americans, they seem to me fundamentally the same as my grandparents seeking a better life in America.
On the other side, however, open immigration can’t coexist with a strong social safety net; if you’re going to assure health care and a decent income to everyone, you can’t make that offer global.?”
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/26/the-curious-politics-of-immigration/?_r=0
Read the start of that second sentence again. Because it is an economic fact. Add to that sentence free trade with countries with dramatically lower wage scales.
And the denial of that fact by globalists is being felt across the globe.
Objectively, the globalists in both parties are attacking the bottom 50%. That is not their intent, but an objective evaluation of their policy proscriptions can lead to no other conclusion.
Increasing inequality isn’t an accident.
By the way in the Pew when voters were asked if an issue was a very big problem: 77% African Americans said Income Inequality. More said that was a big problem than any other issues.
http://www.people-press.org/2016/08/18/4-how-voters-view-the-countrys-problems/
I don’t see anyone arguing for open immigration, just a more sane immigration policy
Here is the only person I have heard able to square the circle. To connect multi-culturism with the imperative of social justice.
He brought the house down in Philadelphia.
He was the only one I heard who came close.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbjhzI1g3EE
I watched it again.
I was standing toward the back of the California Delegation when I saw the speech. What is hard to communicate is how boring it all gets. Speaker after Speaker. So it HARD to get the attention of the room.
And he did. But it was in pieces at the beginning. And you could literally see how disparate the wings of the party are. The Sanders people cheering about the fight to 15, the Clinton people about the NRA.
He made it about the heart. Which is in the end what liberal politics should be about. But the wonk wing doesn’t understand the heart – they are scared of it. Neo-liberals from Charles Peters to Al From to Bill Clinton have long preached we can’t afford that. The wonks get it when they talk about tolerance – because it connects with their lives. But the moral imperative of social justice? To someone like Yglesias it’s the punch line of a joke.
But without the heart liberalism is empty and hallow. And no one knows it more than the young.
I somewhat agree with the idea that it’s actually the pro-free-traders who brook no opposition or even discussion on the merits.
There’s plenty of evidence that the European internationalists are just shoving their vision of the EU down the throats of the proles.
Same thing on trade deals in the US. Fast track, secret negotiations, etc. are all meant to eliminate ‘public interference’ in getting what’s ‘good for them.”
Krugman has made the excellent point the TPP is less about ‘free’ trade and more about facilitating corporate entitlement.
The facts of the matters are that trade deals are more about facilitating capital (investment) mobility that enriches the top 1% and when US corporate and investment tax rates advantage the beneficiaries over the last 40 years – they get all the benefits, i.e. income and thus accumulating wealth.
These facts are not unrelated – trade deals, lower tax rates, income/wealth inequality – and our ‘betters’ simply saying ‘move along, nothing to see here,’ is not really constructive from a middle class stand point.
trend to see/hear that point you attribute to Krugman more and more, and in a variety of media.
The formulation when I was pleasantly surprised to notice this was, I think, in an interview of some trade economist on NPR. It went something like “people are coming to recognize that ‘free’* trade deals like TPP have been, and continue to be negotiated primarily in the interests of, and with input from, international businesses/corporations; with no/insufficient consideration of and input from the workers, human health, and ecological systems they put at risk.”
*a false-advertising term that should long ago have been exterminated and laid to rest, since there’s never been any such thing as “free” trade above the level of individual barter, nor will there ever, nor should there be.
Curious, you seem more aware of the left and anti-trade, when surveys have shown teh RIGHT is actually more anti-trade in general. When specific deals are mentioned, both shoot up. That seems a logical finding to me, since liberals are not so effected, YET. I do wonder how loud the screams of liberals when consumer protections and environmental laws have to be approved by corporate courts of arbitration.
Curious if you are unpersuaded by the logic of his argument for nationalism? Is there not a social contract with your birthplace? Even our worst corporate citizens generally take their worst behavior overseas, no? Until now.
Non-Western nations have no problem defending their cultural preferences without criticism from “opinion-makers”, do they? We are even shy of imposing our values on them on some pretty dicey issues, imo.
Instead of arguing with me, consider this an opportunity to find yourself in the delineations spelled out in the article.
In my threads here of late, there is a loud contingent that is so anti-nationalist that they’re more interested in defending Putin’s national interests than those of the Euro Zone of the United States.
Yet, many of these same folks are ardently nationalist on economic questions, including especially in their opposition of certain implications of the TPP.
It’s schizophrenic, although not necessarily incoherent. What’s lacking is self-awareness about the dissonance.
Not really. What I am is a skeptic.
You are way over your skies on Putin and any proof that would stand up. That does NOT make me some sort of Russian-firster. Sheesh.
I am an economic “nationalist” at this point in time. We are being hurt too badly by the corporatism.
Do me a favor, please.
Watch this video:
Now, before you watch it, a couple of things.
You can safely ignore the first 2:30 of the comments because I know you will not agree with his defense of free trade on the economic merits.
So, unless you’re patient, just skip the first 2:30.
Then listen to what he has to say about the TPP from a broader perspective and tell me the following:
I can say that what he said is exactly what I would have said before ever hearing him say it.
The only proviso is that I still want to look at the deal. If it’s bad enough, it has to be rejected. And I consider that an open question.
When I talk about a debate, though, I’m talking about an actual responsive reaction to this man’s comments.
And the reason you don’t see one on the left is because they’re simultaneously suspicious of any expression of national power as parochial at best and imperialist at worst when it comes to the military or alliances against another global power, but they’re ardent economic nationalists at the same time. They don’t even recognize that what the Singapore PM is talking about exists as a set of considerations which means that they haven’t understood the first reason or motivation of the president for pursuing TPP.
Better to have an actual debate, IMO.
So Walmart is the mark of our citizen’s standard of living thanks to trade. Taxpayer subsidized in so many ways one cannot count…
How embarrassing to hear that from a Singaporean elite.
If Asia is worried about our credibility as security providers, it probably has more to do with our recent misadventures in the ME than any unwillingness to pass a trade agreement. Or our fascination with pocket nukes???
Do we not have defense treaties for that?
I think is cheap and easy debate point to throw that down. Trade deal or WAR! Another bad trade deal makes WAR more likely than less. And these three kinda max out bad. Just wait til generic drugs disappear.
Not that Trade Deal or War should replace the debate you’re having with yourself, but that gross simplification of the argument should be part of the conversation. But it won’t be because the second the guy says Wal-Mart you stop listening.
Even the paper you posted warned of backlash to another bad trade deal.
Give me one significant trade deal that actually performed as promised in the last 30 yrs. Just one.
Belief is impervious to results and facts. Those supporting these latest faux-free trade deals, just know that the next one will work (for the people). Even if they haven’t looked at and corrected all the reasons why the last one didn’t work (for the people). They’re selling BS to the people and more riches to the elites for whom this crap is designed to work for.
“They” know that, but it’s never quite clear if their shills are knowing or just following the faith they were born or converted into.
They are now handwaving away the trade aspect, which is indefensible but is explained by the need to enlist a lotta influence to get these BushII step-children passed, and claiming it fosters Pax Americana???
Jim Hightower, my favorite Texas progressive–old school…https://www.hightowerlowdown.org/node/3402
Maybe we should stop buying international friends with middle class and under class wealth for a while.
Prosperity Undermined
The Status Quo Trade Model’s
21-Year Record of Massive U.S. Trade Deficits,
Job Loss and Wage Suppression
http://citizen.org/documents/prosperity-undermined.pdf
Trade pacts fail to benefit U.S. companies
http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/2015/aug/27/trade-pact-deficit-TPP-opposition/
I can probably wait until the end of time for you to respond with any coherence to Singapore’s PM.
But that was the point I was making that you’re responding to.
it’s great hearing an outside view and also it’s interesting how well he knows US domestic policy
A persuasive argument by the Singaporean PM: trade agreements foster interdependence and cooperation, and if we turn away from that the world will be a less stable place.
Of course the details matter, but we need to keep our eye on the bigger picture.
Singapore PM Lee referred to the P4 – Trans-Pacific Strategic Economic Partnership signed in 2006.
Known as the P4 (Pacific four), the agreement is between Brunei Darussalam, Chile,Singapore, and New Zealand. The P4 is New Zealand’s first and only trade agreement with a Latin American country. Facts and figures: P4 combined population is 28 million (2014 est) and P4 combined GDP is US$762 billion (2013).
Trading partner profile Singapore with United States: dropped significantly from 12.5% in 2003 to 7.7% in 2012.
Yep, American workers can’t compete with manufacturing in Singapore, a booming economy since WWII thanks to a Dutch industrialist Dr. Albert Winsemius.
The WSJ argument is Booman’s…”`For the simple reason that the U.S. invested so much in it, the deal acquired a kind of totalistic value that goes way beyond its economic merits,’ said Euan Graham, a former U.K. foreign officer who studies regional security at the Lowy Institute for International Policy in Sydney. `To leave Asian partners hanging now would be disastrous for U.S. leadership in the region'” [Wall Street Journal, “U.S. Faces Setback in Asia if TPP Trade Deal Doesn’t Pass”]. Shorter: Take one for the team, little people! Oh, and I really like “totalistic value.” (naked capitalism)
Face is sooo important.
Obama’s major benefactors …
You know I am no Putin backer. And I definitely lean more imperialist than Marie3 or mino.
So after listening to the words of the hereditary PM of the most brutal democracy in Asia, I see these as largely failed ideas, along with the idea that Free Trade brings Political Freedom. Interdependence has for America, created more weakness than otherwise. That weakness has made rivalries more equitable and so when a war does come, it’s going to be much much worse.
If the elites want us to become more interdependant then it has to work FOR EVERYONE. Not just them. We can peacefully starve to death on the streets. Hooray!
Look, China did not start taking American jobs until we reduced uncertainty by granting PNTR status. Now with 300 million more middle class, they are stoking those nationalist flames and quarreling with Vietnam, with the Philippines, with Japan. If they hadn’t had all those benefits from trade they’d have many more peasants whose primary worry would not be gaining national face but instead survival. They’d have smaller GDP making it a much greater strain to beef up their military. They wouldn’t have as many resources to set up not only direct rivals to American led institutions like IMF, but to directly subsidize unfriendly states. And what did we gain from it? A China that is not really more free politically, that is making tremendous strides in showing controlling regimes that it is indeed possible to restrict the internet. So much for preventing rivalry or creating manageable relationships.
A more salient point is that of the security situation and really the only strong argument in favor that I have ever heard for this. That is, America won’t join us so we need to join China or be crushed (again would China really be a salient rival without earlier agreements?) then the elites on our side needed to do a better job of writing the agreement so that it wouldn’t just take, or be willing not to do that taking themselves. The way they conduct trade make it a lot more of a zero sum game than it has to be. Here is where I fall firmly on your “bad specifics” speculation so this doesn’t hack it for me.
But international relations are not all trade agreements and the idea of actually bearing some of their own defense burden not withstanding, I think the US is demonstrating in other areas that we have the Pacifc Rim’s back. Enough so that we can work on making an agreement that trims back some of the bad ideas or pass some of the less objectionable stuff individually.
Now China is not part of the TPP (though I wouldn’t go so far as to say it’s an attempt to create a better position v. China, I don’t think the Obama admin sees China as an enemy, ideally from their view they’d seek to bring them in later) but looking at the leaked specifics there are some bad ideas, especially on intellectual property which is the hill I am fully willing to die on, and puzzling assumptions about environmental protections and labor standards which have been so much empty wind in the past.
So to summarize, I don’t buy the economic case because of past trade deals. I think the ideas about easing rivalries have not borne much fruit. I think the specifics of this deal are bad enough to warrant seeking security via other methods or by slower methods and that it’s not essential for stability to pass this thing right now over the objections of most of the country. Though this is by the far the most convincing argument for it.
This is a rather thorough discussion of the political issue being pushed. I think it meshes with your post.
“There’s a different type of geopolitical justification for the TPP, one that is more agnostic toward the actual content of the treaties. For instance, W.K. Winecoff and colleagues have argued that there is a race between countries to see who can be at the center of treaty networks. Connected to this is the credibility-based notion that democracies with separation of powers need to show their less democratic rivals that they are equally capable of following through on their commitments. Ergo, if Obama signs the TPP but can’t deliver congressional ratification, the U.S. looks weak.
…
There is a more fundamental reason to be skeptical about the TPP impacting Chinese-U.S. competition in the Asia-Pacific. Even if the TPP were to include meaningful international law commitments, they would be just that: international (weakly enforceable) law, not national (highly enforceable) law. Both China and the U.S. have highly malleable attitudes towards international law. The U.S. has followed international legal orders mostly when they were already consonant with national security strategy. And China has recently flouted the rulings of an international arbitration panel on its maritime dispute with the Philippines. Far from affecting China’s behavior, the ruling seems to have emboldened belligerents within China. We shouldn’t expect from international law more than it can deliver.
http://rooseveltforward.org/will-tpp-stop-chinas-rise/
Thank you. Now there’s an actual discussion.
A week or so ago, President Obama put Congress on notice that a vote on TPP is coming in the lame duck period after the election.
Booman, one sees mention of this now and again, but it seems little considered in the public debate. This guy might have some wisdom to share…
“In 2013, the Pentagon’s Defense Science Board put forward a remarkable report describing one of the most significant but little-recognized threats to US security: deindustrialization. The report argued that the loss of domestic U.S. manufacturing facilities has not only reduced U.S. living standards but also compromised U.S. technology leadership “by enabling new players to learn a technology and then gain the capability to improve on it.” The report explained that the offshoring of U.S. manufacturing presents a particularly dangerous threat to U.S. military readiness through the “compromise of the supply chain for key weapons systems components.”
I’ve seen these offshoring risks firsthand.
Our military is now shockingly vulnerable to major disruptions in the supply chain, including from substandard manufacturing practices, natural disasters, and price gouging by foreign nations. Poor manufacturing practices in offshore factories lead to problem-plagued products, and foreign producers–acting on the basis of their own military or economic interests–can sharply raise prices or reduce or stop sales to the United States.
The link between TPP and this kind of offshoring has been well-established. The proposed deal would not only repeat but magnify the mistakes of the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), offering extraordinary privileges to companies that move operations overseas. Just this spring, an official U.S. government study by the International Trade Commission noted that the pact would further gut the U.S. manufacturing sector. This, following the loss of 5 million manufacturing jobs since 2000, is a perilous proposition.”
http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/foreign-policy/291725-the-national-security-case-against-tpp
Salient link. With the debacle of F35, the limited utility of the F22, the Stryker program, Failure of future warrior etc. It really feels like we’ve reached a point where our MIC is simply too corrupt and deficient to actually do their tasks.
That is a TERRIBLE, and pretty vapid, argument. PM Lee basically says a lot of governments have taken a big political hit to force this through and will be upset if we refuse to put it through now. Well, they’re taking a hit because it’s a bad deal. It’s a bad deal just on the basis of the ISDS alone (which is Clinton’s grounds for opposition), never mind expanding the insanity of American copyright and patent law to a dozen other countries.
To run with his analogy, if a marriage would be a bad idea, should you go through with it because the wedding guests will be upset if you don’t show? Really? What a lousy argument.
On top of everything else, Lee is factually wrong about the other countries in the TPP. As of today nobody has ratified. They haven’t yet taken the hit. (To further strain the analogy, the guests haven’t yet even bought the wedding gifts.)
Also fuck LDP, Abe leads a group of sexist katana rattling wannabes.
– the elites have lost our confidence; he may be sincere and intelligent – on his own behalf; what’s lacking is the sense that elites are negotiating a deal that’s in the interests of the 99% here in the USA.
What I got from him was this. First, he pointed out that trade can improve the economic outcomes of all parties. There is something in it for everyone. That may be true as far as it goes. But here is where we need to discuss the details of the deal. I think the usual economic reason for trade is it makes each party better off. However, in reality that may or may not be true. There are those who think that since wages are lower elsewhere production of goods will exit the United States and move to lower cost countries. Carrier going to Mexico, for example. I think that is the truth many see, both left and right. I commented on that above with respect to guns and NAFTA in Kentucky. But this deal has provisions that favor certain industries and resolves disputes by international tribunals, that are not subject to national laws.
Secondly, he connects this to security, a strategic deal. By forming an interdependent partnership all will be more secure and will trust each other. In its absence, one or more, like Japan, may not trust the US umbrella. So this is a long term deal. But he is wrong about looking out 50 years. It may or may not hold up that long. Does anyone seriously believe that if, for example, it becomes in South Korea’s self interest to open more trade with China they will not do so, or enter separate agreements? I am skeptical about a trade deal that substitutes for a strategic alliance.
But I do agree it needs to be discussed in some detail. The problem here is Obama will submit this to congress in the lame duck and then they have, I believe, 90 days to approve it. A deal this large should have already entered the national debate. It has, but only to the extend of how suspicious are you about it, given the history of these kind of deals? I do know that I cannot personally agree to something that comes along in the middle of the night and those things I have read, including the special interests negotiated by corporations and the tribunals.
Sure, this man is intelligent and sincere. But that does not mean I have to agree with him. Like others, he likely has a favorable balance of trade with us, or thinks this will improve it. That, to me, is not relevant. I want to know what impact it has here. Currently we have a negative current account. Will this improve it or make it more negative?
“…if, for example, it becomes in South Korea’s self interest to open more trade with China they will not do so, or enter separate agreements? I am skeptical about a trade deal that substitutes for a strategic alliance.”
China already HAS trade deals with about half of the parties in TPP. And nothing precludes future ones.
I agree that trade should not be a substitute for diplomatic alliances. I think corporatism has found a way to piggyback THEIR interests on supposed diplomatic ones.
I find that statement by the Singapore president particularly interesting since Singapore’s prosperity over the past 50 years has come from “guided democracy” and an essentially mercantilist control of the Singporean economy to leapfrog into the most lucrative industries.
What that signals to me is that the provisions that benefit American industry in media, pharmaceuticals, software, agricultural chemicals, patentable devices likely also benefit Singapore because of its mercantilist policy and picks of winners and losers.
The “free trade” argument in classical economics depends on a model of no impediments to trade (which is far from realistic) and comparative advantages (outside of those created by law or regulation) in land, labor, and the accumulation of capital of the respective countries. The pretense that free trade in the current institutional environment benefiting everyone is a bigger delusion than most things attributed to progressives as impractical. The past three decades has shown that the main comparative advantage in trade is willingness in how hard to exploit labor. Singapore’s happy face aside, they got there the same way that China has and that other Asian nations continue to do. Bangladeshi fires in factories are not a bug; they are a feature of that Asian brand of mercantilist capitalism. And while that might be a philosophical or theoretical contradiciton, it is not a practical contradiction at all. Nor is another comparative advantage: loose corporate and corporate bankruptcy laws.
what you hit here:
Except that I would append to the end of that ” . . . and/or accept degrading impacts to human and ecological health.”
Yes, “have” — the intertoobs has killed grammar
And yes on human and ecological health (and any other “externalities” that later show up as distributed costs to bite back.
skis
You know the TPP is quite similar to the Korean Trade Pact that was fast-tracked for him.
Here is one evaluation:
U.S. government trade data covering the full first four years of the U.S.-Korea free trade agreement (FTA), also known as KORUS, reveals that the U.S. goods trade deficit with Korea has more than doubled. The U.S. International Trade Commission data show Korea FTA outcomes that are the opposite of the Obama administration’s “more exports, more jobs” promise for that pact, which it is now repeating for the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) as it tries to bring a vote before Congress:
Details here: http://www.citizen.org/Page.aspx?pid=3595
some of us want peace not war – I, for one, and that involves taking off the Hitler redux goggles as I said before. Damnit Jim, it’s a country not a moral entity.
Putin’s national interest is easily recognizeable. (1) Warm water ports in the Baltic and Black Sea (a historical classic); (2) Unification or alliance of Russian Orthodox peoples; (3) Respect for having the nintth most populous nation with a military holding the second largest number of nuclear weapons; (4) Recognition of a sphere of influence in nothern Eurasia, the Black Sea, the Caucasus, and the northern Pacific; (5) Recognition of the right of economic and political partnerships with any other countries willing to extend those.
What is the “US national interest”? What part of the world is off-limits to US dominance? What international laws still bind this exceptional nation? When will US leaders deliver for accountability their nationals with the same terms as it demands of others?
What interests of the European nations (and not just the Euro-Zone) does the US recognize as legitimate outside of their utility as members of NATO?
Is the United States an equal partner in international relations or is it insistent of being “more equal than the others”?
Those are legitimate questions to ask without being accused of a demonstrable lack of patriotism and failure to hate the designated international leaders.
I remember the argument in the drums of war in 2002 and 2003 that various Democrats (and not just progressives) were apologists if not lackeys of Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden. I remember what Saxby Chambliss’s campaign did to Max Cleland. It was ugly when he did it. And the Clinton campaign and its cheerleaders are tiptoeing toward the same ugliness in its equation of Trump and Putin. It is likely that Trump and Bill Clinton have had more congenial face time than Trump and Putin.
It is only dissonant for someone who thinks that the US has some expansive Manifest Destiny. Or that all is fair (and wise) in love, war, and politics so long as you get the win. And ugly wins are without future costs.
But I have seen the costs of hidden political agendas in landslide years. For both parties.
(and may even in some sense, or to some degree, validate booman’s taxonomy).
“Trade” isn’t the problem.
Putative “free”-(that part’s nonsense, of course)trade agreements that elevate the interests of international businesses/corporations (and whose terms are largely negotiated by them) over, and to the detriment of, workers (i.e., actual humans), human health, and ecological systems (with minimal/no input into the terms from their representatives) are the problem.
I know I invited an an anti-TPP response, but it’s still true that the bulk of the article I’m citing is dedicated to the right’s reaction to multiculturalism and liberal immigrations policies.
Interesting that so far NO response to that.
OK, here you go.
>>Status quo conservatives are not natural allies of authoritarians
all of 20th century European history disproves this. Time after time, the mainstream conservatives teamed up with the authoritarians to fight socialism.
Criticising the TPP doesn’t threaten my self-image, but my agreement with parts of the article you cited feel like (as you said) ‘an appeasement of reactionary intolerance,’ which does.
Why do you think the left is not nationalistic AND multicultural? Ever been to Austin? If you respect another culture, why aren’t you equally respectful of your own?
We don’t really have liberal immigration policies, actually. We have somewhat liberal refugee policies, which is being conflated. Mexico and US must be about par for job opportunities, as undocumented traffic has dried up and even reversed. In Europe, the right is upset with extra-national EU job competition as well as refugee cultural conflict. The root causes are different between the two.
Perhaps because the fiscal burden of low wage immigration is disproportionately carried by the poors, while the gains go to the wealthier? Competition for jobs, housing, seeing zero sum in benefit programs.
That’s your interpretation of what the Sanders’ campaign was all about? No wonder you trashed him and his supporters as you jumped on the HRC-mobile.
(Must be a bitch for you to explain to yourself why such an obviously unacceptable candidate retained the best, and considerably better than the front-runners, favorable/unfairable ratio throughout the primary.)
Change a couple words in your statement and it would be indistinguishable from what Hoover supporters were claiming about FDR. (Perhaps with better reason since FDR had a lot of advisers that were far less enamored of capitalism than Sanders’ is and they were more solid socialists wrt to sweeping government changes than Sanders got anywhere near.)
That’s as accurate as saying that I think the Birther Movement is an accurate description of what the Obama campaign was all about.
huh? Analogies aren’t your forte, but this one doesn’t pass on any measure. As well as totally unresponsive to the points made about your view of the Sanders’ campaign.
How I think some group of people will react to a new president has nothing to do with what I think that candidate’s campaign is “about.”
I understand where you are coming from with this. I hope the Clinton campaign is ready for the shitstorm that is coming from the misogynists. Trump rallies already are chanting “Kill the bitch.” and “Rape the bitch.”
If the issue that the right unloaded on Obama was race, the issue that the alt-right is going to unload on Clinton is rape. Get ready for rape culture to join race in the popular debate. And police forces and especially the military will be ground zero of the controversy once again.
Yep, the alt-right was already reacting to Sanders’s campaign with anti-Communist (cap-C) anti-semitism.
Where are Alt-right megaphones once the campaign is over?
Watch how Breitbart rolls with this election. Bannon is inclined to alt-right views of the world. And by the end of the election either all of the GOP Wurlitzer aspens will have turned in that direction or new entrerpreneurial faces will take up the cause of becoming more visible. On that score, watch how David Duke moves.
NYTimes — For Obama, an Unexpected Legacy of Two Full Terms at War
Note: He has now been at war longer than … any other American president.
That may not seem like a big deal to those with memories that don’t stretch back further than 9/11/01 and thus, all war all the time feels “natural,” but there is noting natural of about eight continuous years of war even for this most warlike of nations, the USA over the past 200+ years. (What a freaking joke that Nobel Peace Prize turned out to be — not the that record for that award was so sterling to begin with.)
I’m not certain of Obama’s culpability in that. When Bush invaded Iraq and then ” broke it” he set off a shit storm that could not be contained. It accelerated with the disaster in Syria and Maliki. I do think our military planners now are more interested in strategic advantages as opposed to peace initiatives. But the fire was set in 2003.
A long time ago on a planet under our feet, I understood that the accelerating of connectivity of transportation and communication was going to require people around the world to become creatively interdependent. Declarations of interdependence were the vogue, likely when BooMan was romping in his playpen. And then Coca-Cola embodied that mood with its “It’s a Small, Small World” ad. What sort of culture global culture would become was never mentioned.
By the time that the buzzword “globalization” appeared, that small world was an accomplished fact. I had gone from buying Indian textiles because of their exotic designs through buying Brazilian toweling to buying Chinese textiles because there was no alternative. And around me in North Carolina, textile plants were either currently shuttered or long closed until only Robin Hayes’s Pillowtex (formerly Cannon Mills) remained as a local sheet manufacturer. And then Robin Hayes shuttered it too.
I went from full-time employment with a company to full-time employment of a contractor of a company, effectively doubling my overhead for being an employee rather than a successful exploiter of employees. If you think that’s too harsh, perform the “count the Mercedes” test in any corporate parking lot.
It was not my voting or my personal decisions that made any of this happen; how was I to “go slow” even if that thought had occurred to me.
By the time I had Indian, Chinese, and Arab colleagues at work, they and their families were already here and living in neighborhoods just like mine.
Of course, being tolerant and open, I was advocating for multiculturalism and raising my kids to understand other cultures because that was necessary to dealing with our neighbors. At the same time, the neighborhoods we lived in became more open to African-Americans and Latinos.
Telling us to go slow on globalization and multiculturalism while pushing the Trans-Pacific Partnership is asking good progressive democratic liberals to become jerks and to tolerate jerks. It’s that simple. Corporations ran fast into globalization, arbitraged everything that crossed borders to their own advantage and then asked for “free trade agreements” to harmonize regulations to the lowest common denominator. Of course the Obama administration does not want to talk about the details of the TPP; it harmonizes the mercantilism of patents, trademarks, and copyrights to the most expansive private “intellectual property” standards to pay back the media, pharmaceutical, genetic engineering, and software industries. It creates yet another set of tribunals (NAFTA, WTO, TPP, and so on) to permit corporations to sue governments to strike down even the lowest common denominator regulations. The conservative anti-NAFTA activists were right about one thing; the tribunals compromise national sovereignty in a way that most Americans would not agree with had they been honest about those consequences when the bill was being considered.
This part is the authentic conundrum that we face:
I fear that that wise leadership is pushed to the limit by this contradiction right now; it is a corporation dominance contradiction. Killing the corporate ability to be mercantilist about intellectual property kills the opportunity to be mercantilist about labor pricing. And being mercantilist about labor pricing strands immigrants who are already here on temporary permits or no documents at all, allowing a informal market labor pool out of sight of authorities that has sweatshop wages. It also creates an oppressive regime at US borders for stereotypically-identified “unwanted” immigrants who are fleeing from economic and political chaos created by the global economy, US meddling, and local corruption.
The best fate of the TPP is for it to quietly fail and never be seen again, another one of Obama’s “bad ideas” that has had an unfortunate accident. No fingerprints or Republican fingerprints; Trump’s will do.
Multiculturalism is a media issue; we have narrowcasted media on cable and the internet that should make that not an issue but it instead intensifies the issue because our cultures diverge instead of dialogue. Nationally that is a symbolic problem for electoral and legislative politics. Where it becomes acute is in local politics and daily life. It is a fact that the local elementary school in 1980 for the Uptown neighborhood of Chicago had 40-something second-languages for second-language teaching and 130-something actual native languages represented in its student body.
The most effective way to mainstream kids into English studies was and likely still is by beginning non-language subjects in a native language and moving instruction to English when their English skills can support the ideas in math, social science, science, and other studies. It is exactly these programs that the anti-multiculturalism politicians have stopped in their tracks. There seem to be two motives; (1) their constituents can be riled up by the idea that some furriner who works very hard can outcompete their precious; (2) having competent second-language teachers costs money and politicians for the past 40 years have been cutting costs and promising no new taxes.
Going slow hobbles good and productive people who are already resident in the US.
It is corporations, not politicians driving the globalization trend, which in turn drives the demand for respect taglined “multiculturalism”. Failing to rein in the globalizing trends of corporations is what will increase the provocation.
Like so many things that benefit the right, there is no way to avoid provocation without dealing with the core issue non-incrementally. Make the employers authentically responsible for who they hire and raise the minimum wage to cover all jobs with the same wage to close off the agricultural and restaurant and off-books sub-minimum wage scams of employees and government.
Amen on the TPP and company.
How they will get ‘er done… Then HC runs on repeal in 2020? LOL
“[L]et’s look at one special group of Representatives who can swing this vote: the actual lame-ducks, i.e., those who will be in office only until Jan. 3. It depends partly on how many lose their election on Nov. 8, but the average number of representatives who left after the last three elections was about 80. Most of these people will be looking for a job, preferably one that can pay them more than $1 million a year. From the data provided by OpenSecrets.org, we can estimate that about a quarter of these people will become lobbyists. (An additional number will work for firms that are clients of lobbyists)” [Mark Weisbrot, The Hill]. “So there you have it: It is all about corruption, and this is about as unadulterated as corruption gets in our hallowed democracy, other than literal cash under a literal table. These are the people whom Obama needs to pass this agreement, and the window between Nov. 9 and Jan. 3 is the only time that they are available to sell their votes to future employers without any personal political consequences whatsoever.” http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/campaign/292039-obamas-tpp-campaign-could-drag-down-democrats
It also depends on how the GOP rolls on this. Do they want to obstruct Obama or screw Trump?
They probably want their million bucks.
Why does Booman hate the LGM boys? Does he think they’re idiots too?
What we don’t need is attempt to herd progressive Democrats to support the TPP. When I start seeing that sort of saluting, I know they’ve crossed over into “Our Wurlitzer” country.
Time to organize. If Obama wants to stand in front of those pitchforks one more time, I’m game.
was Disney. Coke was “I’d like to teach the world to sing . . . “