Trump’s consigliere, Guiliani, disclosed the intent of the EO that Trump is proudly trumpeting. The Hill – Giuliani: Trump asked me how to do a Muslim ban ‘legally’.
As a ban on Muslim’s it seems to fall very, very short. By country, it doesn’t even include the largest Muslim populations. Which are Indonesia (205 million), Pakistan (175 million), India (174 million), and Bangladesh (146 milion). The number in Egypt, Iran, and Turkey are all about 75 million.
The “watch list” was more targeted. i.e. British Muslim convert Yusef/Cat Stevens was denied entry to the US in 2004.
What Rudy/Trump pulled out was something old with a slight twist, but it’s the old part that continues to get ignored.
2015-16 – Legislation and later DHS implementation change that US visas are required for those traveling to or from or holding passports from: Iraq, Syria, Iran, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and Yemen.
Almost the exact same list from 2001 and 2015. Only Lebanon dropped and Yemen added. Wonder why? Gee, what do these countries have in common?
2017 Trump’s list (not named but referenced from the 2015/16 legislation/implementation): Iraq, Syria, Iran, Yemen, Sudan, Libya and Somalia.
To Catch a Terrorist – is what the public is told as the reason for the list. So, exactly what would this list have possibly prevented? History is not on the side of the most recent three US Presidents Based on country of origin of known and/or suspected Muslim related attacks on US soil and/or citizens:
1993 WTC
Pakistani via Kuwait – 1
West Bank – 1
Egypt – 1
Egypt – 1 (convicted inspiration)
Pakistan – 1 – KSM alleged/claimed mastermind
=
1998 Embassy bombings – Kenya and Tanzania
Primarily Egyptian nationals. Others included a Libyan, Sudanese and Lebanese. Planning and direction from Sudan?
=
1999-2000 Millennium plots
(Indian Airlines Flight 814 – not directed at the US
5 persons alleged to be linked to Pakistani AQ affiliate)
LAX bombing – thwarted
Algeria – 1 (living in Canada)
USS – The Sullivans failed (attack boat sank) AQ operating out of Yemen
USS Cole – bombing
Suspected AQ terrorist – unidentified
Yemen – 1 – alleged “mastermind”
US citizen – 1 – alleged and of Yemeni ancestry
=
9/11 attacks:
Egypt – 1
KSA – 14
UAE – 2
Lebanon – 1
(France/Algeria – 1 detained before 9/11)
=
2001 Shoe Bomber-thwarted
UK – 1
=
2002 – LAX shooting
Egypt – 1
=
2003 – Lackawanna Six – no attack
Listed as Yemeni-American (spring 2001 traveled to Afghan training camp); as US born, most, if not all, were born and the US and may have held US passports.
=
2009 Fort Hood Shooting
US – 1 – parents from the West Bank
=
2009 Underwear bomber – thwarted
Nigeria – 1
=
2010 Times Square NYC bomb – failed
US – 1 (naturalized citizen 2009, born in Pakistan, previously US Visa student)
=
2013 Boston bombing
Chechen/Avar – 2 – born Kyrgyzstan and Kalmyk. Lived in Dagestan before US. One naturalized US citizen in 2012.
=
2015 San Bernardino shooting
US – 1 — Pakistani parents (traveled to KSA)
Pakistan – 1 – (raised in KSA)
=
2016 – Orlando nightclub shooting
US – 1 – Afghan parents (traveled twice to KSA and once UAE)
=
The Score:
Iran: 0
Iraq: 0
Libya: 1 (known)
Syria: 0
Somalia: 0 (including pirate terrorists there would be many)
Sudan: 1
Yemen: several alleged
=
Any Trumpsters, along with Trump himself, now going, “F**k yeah, Trump is the man that’s banning Muslims,” are falling for BS propaganda. Not to discount the real difficulties for individuals caught in the trap of this EO, it’s not about banning Muslims. It’s a piece of the continuing US wars on these seven countries. Wars that aren’t exactly and officially recognized as such. (Hell, not even liberals/Democrats acknowledge US participation in training and supplying the headchoppers in Syria.)
The Guardian, Januarry 29, 2017 – US commando dies in Yemen raid as Trump counter-terror plans take shape
One elite US commando is dead and three wounded after a Yemen raid that Donald Trump’s Pentagon is signalling will be a template for aggressive counter-terrorism action.
…
The US has been without a governmental partner in Yemen since a 2015 coup by the Houthi movement overthrew a US-backed administration. The US under both Barack Obama and Trump has supported a bloody Saudi-led air war to oust the Houthis.
…
Where are the US humanitarian protests in response to Yemen’s Children Starve as War Drags On? (Note: the report date is January 2, 2017 and this was after multiple reports of starvation in Yemen from last October.)
Jeremy Scahill
“Most” instead of “many” would probably be more accurate.
Watching current NYC and LAX demonstrations. They will mean nothing. The last election showed that the “cultural and financial capitols” of the country no longer hold sway. People in Ohio, Iowa, Ariz. could care less. Large demonstrations in Michigan could have some effect. Congressman from Texas has responded to demos in Dallas/Ft Worth airport.
Once again, need to make you local Congressman uncomfortable when he/she visits the home district. Maybe have those hurt by the orders on the front rows and ask WHY? again and again.
BTW, with recent terror attack against a mosque in Texas, should New Mexico, Louisiana, and Oklahoma start having heavy vetting on people from Texas who want to cross the border? Call it the Trump Principal.
R
Burning mosques go into the same category as burning AA churches. IOW — not Terrorism!@, merely traditional and sort of accepted American white terrorism.
David Frum
Sam Biddle
Glenn G
#1 – Always, always, always look more closely when a Republican or a conservative Democrat agree with the left and/or the ACLU. It may not even be agreement but blowing smoke because it’s popular in the moment.
#2 – watch out for that “per capita” thingy. The numbers of Tunisians that have jointed ISIS is small. Frum may have picked up Tunisia because of the Nice and Berlin truck attacks.
Outrage About Trump Exposes “Librul” Hypocrisy
This is basically fake news.
The US in 2011 ended to visa waiver requirement for citizens with dual EU citizenship with another country.
That DID NOT ban citizens from those countries from traveling to the US. It DID require that they get a Visa.
Obama paused refugee applications for 6 months from Iraq in 2011. This again did not prevent someone from making a request for a Visa.
Doesn’t it get tiresome to defend lesser evilism?
Why people from these seven countries?
Doesn’t it get tiresome to continually try and equate the evil and incompetence of the Trump administration with Obama and Clinton?
The facts are that no one from those 7 countries were restricted from traveling. They just had to do an extra step of obtaining a visa instead of an automatic waiver.
As for Obama’s pause for Iraqi refugees
“While Obama did halt the refugee program, it did not impact green card holders, or anyone with a visa. It also did not affect refugees who had already gone through the vetting process. Trump’s travel ban barred entry to the United States to those groups, causing a chaotic situation for travelers from the seven affected countries and leading to protests at airports across the country.”
It also stemmed from a very specific threat
“It stemmed from a case out of Bowling Green, Kentucky. According to the Associated Press, “Two Iraqi refugees plotted to send sniper rifles, Stinger missiles and money to al-Qaida operatives waging an insurgency back home against U.S. troops.””
http://heavy.com/news/2017/01/barack-obama-ban-refugees-did-iraq-iraqi-muslim-trump-jimmy-carter-ira
n-iranian-immigration/
That is quite a difference from what Trump did.
As for those 7 countries I agree that those countries seem arbitrary and that list should be revisited. First and foremost, though, if Trump wants this pause he should have implemented it in a much more professional way.
Obama did get sued and lost over the SIV delay in Iraq.
Again, not close to the same thing though.
That list of countries isn’t arbitrary, but the diary did ask readers to think about it instead of spelling it out.
Those that set up legal/policy structures that can be abused on the word or declaration of one person are responsible for loading the gun. But one does have to stop viewing government and politics through the blinders of political parties and personalities to see and understand that.
Not surprising that you showed up in this thread to piss on it.
This is a discussion board is it not? I didn’t show up on this thread to “piss on it.” I showed up on this thread because I have an alternative view that I think will add something to the discussion. I realize you prefer that no one ever challenge your “yes Trump sucks but Obama and Clinton suck just as bad if not worse” screeds but that is not how a discussion board works.
As for your contention that “how the Obama administration implemented it established the conditions precedent for Trump to issue this extreme order. Without it DT would be in abuse of power territory.” I disagree.
Trump is already in abuse of power territory and not because Obama signed an order saying that people traveling to or having dual citizenship in those 7 countries wouldn’t get the courtesy of a visa waiver or because of the pause on granting refugee status to people from Iraq
You are very pointedly ignoring how both the 2011 Iraqi refugee pause and the 2015 visa waiver revision were implemented in comparison to how Trump implemented his executive order.
Those are all marked difference in implementation.
Not because you disagreed with me as I fine with a discussion but rather because of your snarky remark about me showing up in this thread to “piss all over it.” That was the remark of someone trying to bully out dissent and deserved a troll rating. And i don’t give troll ratings lightly.
Yes, you do.
When I do I always tell them upfront I have and why I have done it.
As I’m not a troll and you damn well know that, the use of a troll rating is inappropriate. Consequently, I don’t use such rating for known liberal/Democrats.
I won’t read your other response because over the past twenty-four years I’ve heard it all and during the first few of those twenty-four years, I only had to listen to myself mindlessly speaking the same garbage: hiss boo as Republicans did/said horrible things (well deserved because that’s all they ever do) and deny and rationalize when Democrats either participated in or did similar horrible things. Still for many years I clung to the notion that Democrats had the capacity to do better. Within days of his election, Obama began to disabuse me of that notion, completed within a few months.
Yet, I held my tongue for a couple of years waiting for others to catch up. It looked as if just barely enough did so in the seven plus years after the end of Clinton’s tenure — but that was a mirage. More, but not enough, did so in the last year of Obama’s tenure. That’s a hopeful sign that as long as the process doesn’t get subverted by the liberal/Democrat siren song of all that’s needed is more Democrats and denial that Democrats played any part in making it possible for ignorant retrogrades like GWB and Trump to assume the power of the Presidency.
I dared to challenge your mindlessly spewed garbage and you tried to bully me out of the discussion. That is troll behavior and deserved to be called out.
As or why I say you are the one who mindlessly spewed garbage – you seem intent on always trying to say yes Trump/Rs are horrible but Clinton/Obama/name your D of the week is just as bad. Even when the comparison is tenuous at best. Like in this situation.
The only true commonality is the 7 countries. There is no other one yet you seem intent on equating the two.
Let me put it this way I doubt the 70 something wheelchair bound green card holding woman who was held in detention for over a day by CBP this weekend wouldn’t consider the situations remotely the same. Why? Because Obama’s order that “people who traveled to/had dual citizenship with those 7 countries were not eligible for a visa waiver” never affected green card holders. Nor did it affect those in transit.
Same goes with the Iraqi translator who was detained this weekend. Obama’s order pausing the Iraqi refugee program for 6 months did not affect those who had already been vetted by the program and had been given a visa to travel to the United States. Trump’s did.
You seem totally unwilling to acknowledge that not only were Obama’s orders much more limited in scope, they were also carried out with a lot more humanity and thoughtfulness.
Many years ago, a certain individual at my work place–let’s call him X–was assigned to work on the project that I was directing. Not my choice, rather my supervisor’s. However, my supervisor had an interesting comment about X: “The thing you need to know about X is that he’s never made a mistake, and if you don’t believe me, just ask him yourself.”
>>Not surprising that you showed up in this thread to piss on it.
if you want to talk to people like this, go to dkos where everyone’s an asshole. We’ve gotten used to better behavior around here. answer criticism or ignore it but don’t be a jerk.
It ain’t close to the same thing.
There was no ban in 2015 – only a requirement that someone get a visa.
As an attorney, you understand the legislation (signed by Obama) and how the Obama administration implemented it established the conditions precedent for Trump to issue this extreme order. Without it DT would be in abuse of power territory.
It’s somewhat like killing off Glass-Steagall. It wasn’t necessary because bankers would behave responsibly. Except they didn’t because they no longer had to.
The “Imperial Presidency” wasn’t created in one fell swoop but inch by inch through legislation and precedent. With each POTUS signing onto piece of it and leaving it for the next one to use. I see no reason to dismiss the acts of each of those Presidents, regardless of how little they may personally have made use of it.
The Obama Administration didn’t create the conditions for Trump’s Executive Order. Hundreds of thousands of demonstrators disagree with you.
You are using exactly the same talking point that Trump Administration officials and surrogates have been using all weekend long. Very liberally superior.
That said, we don’t need you to agree with us to welcome your participation in the campaign to stop this. Joining us in the streets, at the airports and on the phones to fight Trump and push Congressmembers to defend the Constitution and the separation of powers would be far more important than this fight you are waging.
I went to demonstrate at the airport this weekend, gave my friends and family the phone numbers of our Senators and Congressmembers, and asked them to start calling tomorrow morning. I felt useful.
The 2015 order in no way created a slippery slope.
Nor was it an example of the creation of an imperil Presidency.
The 2015 order was not close to a ban.
These cases are just not remotely similar.
I don’t know why these 7 countries were chosen. I don’t know why Egypt and Saudi were excluded (though the later is a US ally).
To add that both of those executive actions did not result in green card holders and people already with visas being detained at airports with no access to representation.
My guess? If Bannon hadn’t included green card holders at first and if the order had honored current visas and instead said this is for visa requests going forward while we take another look at these programs there wouldn’t have been these large scale demonstrations. The specter of old women in wheelchairs with green cards, Iraqi interpreters, children, and mothers with babies being detained is what led to wide spread protests at airports that only grew from there.
Given how badly this was implemented and how much more broad it is than what Obama ordered it is quite a stretch to compare the two.
If I’d known b was going to post similar observations, I wouldn’t have bothered to do my own thinking and linking.
While tempting, I’m going to refrain from labeling liberals hypocrites. It’s more like they were uninformed as to what Obama was doing and gave him the benefit of doubt that he was doing the best he could under the circumstances. Oh, and lefties were told to STFU if they brought up any uncomfortable facts.
DT, OTOH, boasts so loudly about every little thing he does that liberals are hard pressed not to hear it. And being hyper-vigilant in viewing whatever DT says and does as an OMG moment, they don’t bother to check out where we were as of 1/19/17 and compare that with today.
What DT did was more extreme and therefore, warranted criticism. OTOH, I’m sick of liberals that were intolerant of real time criticisms of Clinton which they slowly got over during the seven years after that as they learned what all the Clinton crap meant, but they then turned right around and refused to watch what Obama was doing. Now they’re freaking out over DT and believe that if they scream loudly enough that Trump voters will wake up. Why should they? If liberals could sleep through Clinton and Obama, they will damn well sleep through DT as they did GWB.
DHS Secretary John Kelly issued a statement that those holding green cards are not subject to DT’s ‘Muslim’ ban. Was he not consulted before DT issued the order or was he too ignorant to object to it?
For the curious, here’s the linkie on the 1/20/17 Senate confirmation of Kelly. Looks as if there’s some shuffling among the Democrats as to who gets to vote nay on DT’s appointments to give the appearance that an opposition party exists. Gillibrand appears to have been given the honor of being a permanent “nay” in this round. Warren, Merkley, and Wyden have been inconsistent, but were nay on Kelly; whereas, Sanders went with yea. Udall and Heinrich keep popping up as nays, but don’t know if that’s been 100%.
Nate Silver 538 Tracking Congress In The Age Of Trump
Quantity over quality, but it does include what has been voted on. Important to look out for how it can be used to deceive.
So far, only one Democratic Senator is indistinguishable from Republicans representing “red states.” That would be Dianne Feinstein. No surprise there, but way off the charts as far as representing her constituency. Schatz (HI), Schumer (NY), Hirono (HI), Reed (RI), and Whitehouse (RI) are also in Feinstein’s territory. Schatz and Hirono are the successors to Inouye and Akaka, two of the most consistently liberal Senators who served for decades. HI hasn’t since become more conservative and may actually have become more liberal. So, what’s with these two? Same question to Reed and Whitehouse.
At the other end is Udall. His votes are consistent with his record in the House and Senate, and therefore, can be taken as authentic. Too soon to tell with Heinrich who may at this point be following Udall’s lead. Doubt the authenticity of Booker and Gillibrand’s votes. Racking up a “liberal” voting record score on small stuff that risks nothing as to the outcome is something we’ve seen before by Democrats seeking higher office.
Stay tuned.
Well, it looks as if the voters in RI (who may in the aggregate be the savviest state voter constituency in the country) have noticed. The Intercept Protesters Grill Democratic Senator About His Vote For Trump’s CIA Chief.. If they’d known then what they know now, they might have stuck with Lincoln Chafee.
Wonder if DeVos can be stopped? She seems to be in Harriet Myers territory..
Harriet Myers had actual credentials (although not good enough) for her nomination and is a much nicer person than DeVos. DeVos is nothing other than an anti-government wacko with a lot of money.
Doubt that I read it in real time, but in January 2010 Glenn Greenwald recognized a Democratic Party tactic to avoid doing what Democratic voters wanted and even the DP platform claims to stand for, and labeled it as Villian Rotation.
He linked that to something that was evident at that time to all but strictly partisan Democrats who had also become totally invested in Obama as President:
Widening the lens that GG used, there’s also the DP “Hero Rotation” tactic. This is used when the GOP is in control and Democrats want to “keep their powder dry” on congressional votes by going along with the opposition, but use the “Hero Rotation” for members that want/need to hold onto or create a perception and/or record that they aren’t DINOs and aren’t spineless.
Wonderful title for the first week of Der Trumper–The Executive Disorderer, haha.
Very apropos as well, since if one puts to one side the abject hate of the (very selected) Muslim Ban ™, the critical feature of the order was its extreme pigheaded incompetence. It was vetted by no one of any qualifications, and ill considered from just about every governance angle on could imagine. When, upon receipt of the crayon version, DHS attempted to “interpret” it in a sane and somewhat humane manner, Gruppehfuhrer Bannon nixed that and demanded the most illegal possible implementation—which the courts were then happy to rule against.
It now appears that DHS agents around the country are flouting the judiciary’s ruling and are in contempt, probably also on orders of the Gruppenfuhrer, another sign of incompetence or malevolence (or both).
It comes as no surprise that a completely unqualified, incompetent conman in the WH (surrounded by unqualified Rasputin figures) would succeed in getting a national injunction against his one of his signature policies in the first week of his Hundred Days of Misrule. This will be a spectacularly incompetent administration. It will also be the greatest lawbreaking regime in US history—and, after Bushco, that’s saying something.
We can also see that the Trumper WH has no ability to issue its executive orders properly, and so there may be some hope that a large number of them will be similarly subject to legal challenge–at least until Der Trumper finds his Addington. In fact, why not just get the man himself out of retirement? Trumper does need his Himmler…
Anyway, we will see how long the courts hold up under the Trumpist barrage, and it should be noted that Der Trumper’s (first) Supreme Court nominee is now being rushed through as well. He will be a young white Federalist Society member, most likely. Whether he gives effective control of the Court to the lawbreaking Trumper is perhaps the most critical variable arising in our new TrumpAmerica. The country is literally in the hands of Anthony Kennedy, who is a very weak reed to bear such weight.
Thanks to all airport protesters!
I’d like to point out that Bloomberg News has pointed out that no one from the banned countries has committed terrorist acts in the USA. I’d like to point out that the terrorists have come from “allies”, Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan. The Saudi government financed the 911 terrorists and ran interference to get them into flight school. Pakistan’s ISI hid Osama bin Laden for years. With “allies” like these we hardly need enemies.
…Bloomberg News has pointed out that no one from the banned countries has committed terrorist acts in the USA.
My listing of the facts on this point wasn’t good enough for you?
Sure it was. I was just pointing out that one part of the MSM got it right. Thought they should get credit for that. Isn’t it a shame when we astounded to hear the truth from the media?
Are US embassies in the USA? Technically Bloomberg in correct, but ordinary Americans view US embassies and US naval ships as US soil which is why I included them on my list. Hell, some Americans even stretch that US soil thing to a mission compound in Libya, which I didn’t include.
The problem with Bloomberg’s categorical statement is that it leaves room for the rightwing to object with “what about X” and “what about Y.” That is their MO and its best to anticipate it without making the facts overly complex or nuanced. Nothing wrong with stating that one Libyan and one Sudanese are known to have participated in the Kenya and Tanzania US embassy bombings and the country of origin of those that bombed the USS Cole and the Benghazi mission and annex remain unknown.
I would call attacks on embassies and warships acts of war or at least piracy, not terrorism, but that’s me. An attack on a government installation because it’s a government installation is piracy, war or insurrection, depending on the status of the actors. Attacks on civilians in order to terrorize are terrorism. And yes, by my definitions random IRA bombings in London were terrorism, and Oklahoma City was an act of insurrection, the dead children akin to bombing an orphanage or hospital.
Defining major violent attacks do mush around. Absent an identifiable state actor, it’s terrorism and not an act of war. Similarly, insurrection requires an identifiable organization beyond a couple of guys with a truck loaded with some sort of bomb even in the presence of a political motivation by the perpetrator(s). Thus, Brevik and McVeigh were rightwing terrorists.
At the moment the issue is terrorism as perpetrated by people claiming a religious affiliation. A political element exists but is far from being defined. For example, it may be obvious that AQ desires to establish theocratic states, but the where tends to be missing. Terrorists select soft or symbolic targets, usually with little to no value in accomplishing their goals. Often thwarting their goals.
For all we know (and based on the official perp list) AQ may have expected 9/11 to lead the US to topple the KSA regime.
Yes, I agree. Killing people because of their religion or lack thereof is terrorism. Also race. Anything that isn’t state or political.
I’m curious. Do you see Fort Sumter as terrorism or insurrection? A tougher question, “How about Sherman’s march to the sea? War? or Terrorism?” I’ll accept “war is terrorism” as responsive if that’s your answer.
The battle of Fort Sumter was between two opposing armies. IOW war.
Perhaps you meant to cite John Brown and Harper’s Ferry. Not quite terrorism because the target was an armory and killing civilians for the purpose of terrorizing the populace wasn’t on the agenda.
wrt Sherman’s march to the sea, that has to go into the same category as the bombings Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And the bombings of Tokyo and Dresden aren’t far behind. Ordinary people have little to no say or agency as to whether or not their country engages in war. Often a choice between oppose the state and become a victim of the state or keeps one’s head down and hope one doesn’t become a victim of the enemy state. Then we have to add in the question of whether one is a citizen of and aggressor state or a defensive state. Citizen’s in the former have more agency than those in the latter. “What if they gave a war and nobody showed up?” We civilian Americans have gotten a free ride for a long time with our aggression.
I can’t take credit for “Executive Disorder,” only sticking a “The” in front and “er” at the end of it.
There was a high level of support for Trump among various “law enforcement” employees.
This should be far more disturbing than the noise from alt-right doofuses. Particularly as LEOs have been more heavily militarized over the past two decades.
From Counterpunch:
The Resistance and Its Double by C.J. Hopkins.
In a nutshell?
Sure.
Yup.
AG
It’s a fake neo-nationalist insurrection. They’ve tried “Jobs – Door #1” and are now going with “Jobs – Door #2.” They can’t even see that behind both doors is globalization and neoliberalism. Not that they understand the economic implications of either word.
It’s a choice between the Lion or the Tiger