Keeping Matt Taibbi’s warning in mind that there may not ultimately be any there there in the investigation into Donald Trump’s Russian connections, what would an ordinary person infer from the following which just appeared at the New York Times’ website?
WASHINGTON — With questions still swirling over President Trump’s unsubstantiated claims that he was wiretapped on orders of President Barack Obama, the Justice Department on Thursday declined to confirm statements a day earlier from the White House that Mr. Trump was not the target of a counterintelligence investigation.
Officials also said the White House had not relied on any information from the Justice Department in offering a statement denying the existence of an investigation.
The White House spokesman, Sean Spicer, told reporters on Wednesday that “there is no reason to believe there is any type of investigation with respect to the Department of Justice” or “ that the president is the target of any investigation whatsoever.”
But a Justice Department official, speaking on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue, said that there was no indication that anyone at the Justice Department had given the White House that assurance.
Asked whether Mr. Trump was in fact the target of an investigation, the official offered a “no comment.”
Keep in mind that language is very important in all these discussions and that neither reporters nor their sources are always that vigilant about being precise. In this article, the question is whether there is an active counterintelligence investigation, and that is a different kind of animal from a criminal investigation. For example, it’s not a crime to get blackmailed and you could have other reasons than hiding a crime for being susceptible to blackmail. Maybe there’s something you don’t want your spouse to know. Maybe there are things you don’t want the whole world to know. Maybe you’re a politician and the revelations would endanger your career. Maybe you’re a policy maker and the revelations would cripple your agenda.
A counterintelligence investigation will look not just for evidence of crimes, but for evidence that you are being blackmailed or are susceptible to being blackmailed. They’ll look to see if you are taking money in exchange for policies. In these respects, there need be no crime for the investigation to conclude that you shouldn’t be entrusted with a security clearance or hired by the federal government.
Another thing to be careful about is the word “target.” That can have a specific meaning, too, although it’s usually only specific in the case of criminal investigations. It means that there is reason to believe that you have committed a crime, and it could mean that warrants have been issued or a grand jury convened.
In a counterintelligence investigation, I think it would just mean that you were the subject of the investigation.
As a result, saying that “Mr. Trump was not the target of a counterintelligence investigation” is very imprecise and opens up avenues for denial on various grounds that could be badly misleading.
For example, it could be that he’s not a “target” because the investigation isn’t criminal in nature, but he or his campaign or his associates are still under investigation. It could be that there are targets, for example Roger Stone, but that Donald Trump is not one of them.
Yet, there’s still an overall picture here, which is that the Department of Justice is very pointedly refusing to say that Trump isn’t being investigated in some manner. Sean Spicer said that there’s no evidence that Trump is being investigated (in any way) by the Department of Justice and the the DOJ simply won’t verify that. But, they do verify that they didn’t assure the White House that they aren’t being investigated.
So, as sloppy and confusing as the language is here, it sounds like there is something going on.
Taibbi is dead right.
We should be blowing the GOP out of the water on a replacement for Obamacare and yet we get more of this Russian stuff.
My confidence that we can win a messaging battle on the Trumpcare is even lower than my confidence that we can win a messaging battle on Russian-related-shenanigans.
But that said, I’m not sure what the end game is, for Democrats and liberals. I mean, say there’s evidence that the Trump campaign knew that the Russians were meddling with the campaign.
The Republicans refute the evidence or reframe the accusation.
The Democrats insist it’s true.
The Republicans observe that lalalalalalala I can’t hear you.
Then what?
The treason word has to be thrown out on the Senate floor.
The issue is not election hacking, the issue is the liklihood that T owes oligarchs in certain foreign countries and they are calling the shots on “his” administration.
It is all so abstract what you are commenting on – do you actually talk to T voters?
here’s someone who does
http://boldnebraska.org/sen-jim-smith-state-chair-of-alec-pens-letter-to-psc-supporting-transcanadas
-foreign-steel-made-foreign-oil-carrying-keystone-xl-export-pipeline/
and this is pretty obvious and no problem at all to see what the T hypocrisy is. (I wonder why they’re giving the steel business to a foreign company?)
I guess everyone read the following already
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/03/13/donald-trumps-worst-deal?mbid=social_twitter
well, this is the committee that, reports say, is doing something
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_Judiciary_Subcommittee_on_Crime_and_Terrorism
– Sheldon Whitehouse is pursuing it, and he’s no slouch
I don’t talk to Trump voters. I talk to one, though, and she doesn’t accept alternative facts about steel and foreign countries and carbon dioxide and hypocrisy and the like. Trump is flawed, but at least he’s trying to make America great again, instead of just sniping about ‘foreign steel’ and ‘export pipelines’.
is it a family member? imo other dynamic makes it difficult to talk with family members who disagree
re; pipeline – I linked that example because ppl in its path are paying attention and the facts are obviously facts. also covered in newspapers. the example is because talking about T letting down the voters is not about some abstract idea of whether ppl listen to someone who disagrees, it’s about concretely meeting ppl on site with the issues that concern them.
I mean the facts are accepted as facts
Yeah, a family member.
Maybe you’re right. I hope so. My suspicion is that Trump voters are ‘principled’ enough to take a hit on a personal issue–like a pipeline–because they just know that he’s doing such important work in other issues. KYNECT.
well not at all, they don’t take a hit. I’m talking about actual conversations. did you read the link?
when I say it’s abstract, i mean talking about “messaging”. meet the voters on their issues, it’s not messaging
Unfortunately, I am forced to talk to a LOT of Trump voters. And simply talking about, or saying the phrase, “making America great again” is not the same as actually doing something to make America great again. So my question to this person you know would be, “Give me your best couple of examples of something Trump has actually done that, in your opinion, will make America great again. And explain in what way it would accomplish this”?
I’ll give it a try, but our conversations tend to go like this:
Me: It’s the overwhelming scientific consensus that carbon dioxide is linked with climate change.
Her: I disagree.
Me: Do you disagree that carbon dioxide is linked with climate change? Or do you disagree that that is the overwhelming scientific consensus?
Her: I don’t know.
Me: Well, do you think that carbon dioxide is bad for the environment?
Her: I don’t know.
Me: Do you think that environmental scientists would know?
Her: I guess.
Me: Here’s an article about the scientific consensus.
Her: I disagree.
thanks for showing the dialog. doesn’t look promising.
you could try talking about the proposed ACA replacement, concretely,
You’re bringing reason against a faith-based belief system. You can’t win. As the saying goes, “You cannot reason someone out of something he or she was not reasoned into.”
Or as Jonathan Swift put it in 1721: “Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired.”
http://quoteinvestigator.com/tag/jonathan-swift/
I heard neurologists say that action impulse starts in the right “intuitive” hemisphere. The role of the left “logical” hemisphere is to provide rationalizations. As Robert Anton Wilson said:
A persuasion should start with a “sale”, or a story. When the person opens up to your perspective, influence can be very easy. Like for Trump.
There is much to learn.
In the case of climate change, instead of telling them scientific facts, ask them “What would make you change your mind”?
I’ve always liked this approach. Not because it has any effectiveness whatsoever but because it reveals to everyone else that the respondent is a blinkered, deliberately ignorant ideologue.
For example, try this approach on the Russian hacking Truthers and see what it gets you.
My guess is that your respondents will set some ridiculously high bar. And if that high bar is met, they’ll ignore their previous standard and raise the bar even more. Basically when it comes to changing the hardcore ideologue’s mind, good luck with that.
Sort of reminds me of conversations I’ve had with a very well educated climate change skeptic. This individual has somehow managed to take the concept of falsificationism and take it to the extreme – such that any failure to show a positive result is sufficient reason to toss out all other successful studies and successful replications. So I can present this person with as close to a consistent set of positive results as is humanly possible to the extent that there is nearly unanimous agreement that climate change is real and driven by human activity only to have it casually dismissed on the basis of on potentially poorly conducted study that has contrary data. Can’t have a serious discussion with someone under those circumstances. Wish I could be more optimistic.
So with the GOP now in charge – support for the Keystone pipeline collapses and Obamacare is now popular. Is it any wonder people can’t figure out what to believe any more?
Not obsessing about Russia would put Democrats on the slippery slope of having to own up to their responsibility for their humiliation in November. Before they’d do that, they’d accuse Putin of deploying mind control rays at polling stations.
Meanwhile:
http://theintercept.com/2017/03/06/democrats-now-demonize-the-same-russia-policies-that-obama-long-c
hampioned/
http://theintercept.com/2017/03/07/leading-putin-critic-warns-of-xenophobic-conspiracy-theories-drow
ning-u-s-discourse-and-helping-trump/
Oh goody,another installment from The Sage of Rio de Janeiro.
Apparently it’s impossible to take seriously the allegations of Russian hacking and chew gum at the same time.
And Booman is himself a perfect example of Democrats with no introspective potential, right?
Yeah, that post is nonsense.
Area Man, Come Undone by Trump’s Election, Accuses Democrats of Coming Undone by Trump’s Election. And by “Area Man,” I mean “Glenn Greenwald”
Thanks for the link. Otherwise I would have missed this piece of entertainment:
You can always recognize a certain kind of Democratic party loyalist when they spit the epithet “Noam Chomsky” with the same feeling that their counterparts across the aisle once brandished the term “n****r-lover”.
As for who did what what to grease the skids for Trump, I can’t rank Glennzilla’s contribution alongside those who insisted on nominating the second most unpopular candidate in presidential election history.
“Rather than address the points made in the link, I’ll just slander the author as a Democratic loyalist and carry water for Glenn’s shit article, and do it in the most offensive way possible.”
When an article leads off with “I’ve been a member of the Lawyers, Guns and Money team for some months now, and yet I believe that I’ve written only one post criticizing Glenn Greenwald. As I’m clearly not meeting my quota…”, one can be forgiven for doubting the presence of engagement-worthy points down the road.
But upon a second reading, I see that the author has a very important point indeed.
It requires a desperately impoverished imagination or a willful stupidity to find Russia’s motivations the least bit inscrutable. And his pious indignation on the occasion of… gasp!… democracy being undermined tells me he badly needs to read more Noam Chomsky.
IDIOT. The referenced post at LGM was NOT using Chomsky as a slur, you IDIOT. It was pointing out that EVEN NOAM CHOMSKY said “vote for Hillary, you IDIOTS”.
EVEN NOAM CHOMSKY was saying “the danger to our democracy is too great to be a purity pony, you IDIOTS”.
I think some Clinton campaign people see the rescue of their own reputations in pursuing the Russian stuff.
I don’t think that is why some are obsessed with it. I think they are genuinely hopeful it could drive Trump from office.
They are not in my opinion showing much judgement of the political situation, or why Trump won.
I think most people believe there are multiple reasons for Trump winning, not one, and only one. Who are these “Clinton campaign people” you believe are pursuing the Russian stuff to the exclusion of all else?
And driving Trump from office is a worthwhile goal, don’t you think?
Peter Daou, Neera Tanden and John Podesta come to mind.
citations omitted
https:/twitter.com/peterdaou/status/837135365286866945
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/12/18/was-john-podesta-telling-the-truth-on-russia.html
https:
techcrunch.com/2017/02/08/john-podesta-talks-email-hack-fake-news-and-russia
http://www.dailywire.com/news/12219/tanden-russia-hacked-election-get-trump-elected-robert-kraychik
Neera Tanden attacked Jon Favreau, Obama’s speech writer over it.
https:/twitter.com/neeratanden/status/807472431069884416
https:/www.currentaffairs.org/2017/01/it-matters-yes-but-how-much
These links do not support your claim that Clinton people are trying to blame Russia for their own failings, to the exclusion of all other issues. Gonna need a bigger shoehorn.
That’s all they talk about. Ever heard any of these people express accountability for their loss?
What they did wrong?
You are gonna need another plate of denial.
None of these links support your claim. Did you even read the Daily Wire article? “Left wing CNN,” “left-wing CNN democrat, Jake Tapper.” The article’s description of CAP as a “neo-marxist agitation outlet,” had me laughing my ass off. Nice try though.
You didn’t read the links.
Why do you think these people are obsessed by it?
Nice try, though.
I did read them, I pulled quotes from one of them. None of the links support your claim that the selected individuals are “obsessed” with the Russia hacks.
She, doesn’t appear to be anymore obsessed with the Russia than he does.
You on the other hane, seem to have a problem with anyone who suggests Russia might have been up to no good.
If you saw a republican murdering someone on the street you would pass him by to criticize a democrat for jaywalking.
.
How many doors did you and your band of low life friends knock on behalf of Hillary?
You are utterly incapable of interacting with anyone you disagree with in anything but a juvenile manner.
I have worked far too long for too many Democrats to put up with you and your friend’s shit.
People like you are in every group – only interested in setting your group against another with petty insults.
It is interesting you and your buds only really engage in attacking other Democrats.
I think that was their hope but they’re being left behind by the actual situation
Putin deploying mind control rays at polling stations.??? What? You mean to say he wasn’t!!!???
Oh.
Guess I’ve been reading too many mainstream media reports.
Nevermind…
Yore freind,
Emily Litella
It’s an either/or proposition?
Why is it an either/or situation??
Your concern is noted.
A Question and a comment. How exactly should we be blowing the GOP out of the water on replacing Obamacare?
Taibbi has often been wrong of late, so his opinions don’t count for much with me. I believe the Russian connections and ONGOING influence in our government via this President and his administration are worth a lot of scrutiny. Why are you so dismissive of them?
What say you about the hollowing out of our State Department and the deliberate dismantling of the soft power that it has provided on the world stage for decades, by both Republican and Democratic Presidents and administrations in support of liberal democracies and peace and prosperity.
Is there any reason to wonder when the Secretary of State won’t even answer questions from Reporters? When he cans career State Department employees with 40 plus years of diplomatic service? Could this be part of the payback to Putin and Russia for its help ahead of the election?
In my view, the Russian connection is indisputably the most important issue of the Trump Administration and we ignore it to our peril.
Of course, Republican attempts to kill people by denying them access to healthcare is pretty important as well. As are their attempts to deny the franchise to minorities. As are their attacks on hispanic and muslim immigrants and generalized encouragement of antisocial sentiment and out-group directed violence. Their plans to undo Dodd-Frank and unleash Wall Street. To butcher the EPA. The list goes on.
And the Democrats are kicking their assess on all of these things. Not just at the level of party officials, but down to activists and regular citizens putting on the pink hats and burning up the congressional phone lines. Unfortunately the Republican base loves the evil, and the Republicans do technically control all the levers of power in the federal government, but they’re getting absolutely pummeled in the court of public opinion. Trump’s unpopularity is unprecedented in a newly elected president and the stink rubs off on all the Republicans’ legislative efforts.
And the continuing revelations about Russian interference in the election and Trump’s connections thereof are playing a big part in their unpopularity. Engaging in a criminal conspiracy with a hostile power to interfere in an election is unsurprisingly not viewed in a positive light by many people. It would be political malpractice, in fact it would be actively supporting Trump & the Republican agenda, to hand-wave away and belittle each new revelation in the greatest political scandal in modern history.
Every criticism, protest, critical story and leak that hurts Trump’s reputation chips away at the ability of the Republicans to enact their inhumane agenda. Even if you’re an RT propaganda victim who mainlines Greenwald like Kinison on coke and thinks the dozens of stories connecting his campaign with Russian operatives are all just some funny coincidence you can’t deny it all makes Trump look terrible.
The mills of the gods grind slowly, but they grind exceeding fine.
“Taibbi has often been wrong of late, so his opinions don’t count for much with me”
Who has been right? Booman? Sam Wang? Virtually everybody has been wrong about Trump for a very long time.
How many people are going to die when Obamacare is repealed? The Russian connection is more important than that? Seriously?
Yes, I believe that it is. To abrogate our role in the supporting of liberal democracies and peace and prosperity (which we have done since 1945) is to cede our leadership in the world to the Russians and others.
Having said that is not to dismiss the importance of the ACA’s potential repeal, but hey, when it has passed then that might be the time to go all out with the wringing of the hands.
Again, I ask you, what should Democrats do to stop the repeal? I mean, other than what they and we are already doing. For one thing, I called again yesterday to say that I was opposed to the bill in its current form. FWIW, all my congresspersons are real red staters. Mostly unpersuadable, but hey we are keeping the pressure on. Again, please tell me what else I should be doing?
IMO Booman and Wang are two of the good people. More so than Taibbi, who seems to fall into that category of “nothing that the establishment Dems or center left liberals and progressives support or do” is ever deserving of approbation. He’s always seemed to me to be more interested in preserving his own bona fides as an anti-establishment political observer, no matter which side that puts him on.
Do you really believe these things are mutually exclusive? Before the Obamacare repeal became news there was any number of other Trump scandals to focus on.
It was remarkably difficult getting the left to focus fire on Trump instead of Clinton in the weeks before the election. The Russia thing isn’t going to go away just because you don’t want people to talk about it anymore.
So, where’s Bernie been on the Obamacare replacement? The people who are always taking shots at the damned neoliberals don’t have much of a message strategy either. Maybe they’ll find one.
Didn’t that lady who was Acting AG for DOJ refer DT for investigation? Can’t remember her name. Until that is reported, don’t see how it can be ignored.
Sally Yates
Ah, the Flynn take down.
I hate to say this (and it’s not typical), but I found all this clearer before you explained it than after.
When you write “Sean Spicer said that there’s no evidence that Trump isn’t being investigated (in any way) by the Department of Justice and the the DOJ simply won’t verify that”, don’t you mean Sean Spicer said there’s no evidence that Trump IS being investigated … and the DOJ simply won’t verify [whether he is or he isn’t]?
What I get out of this is that Trump, or the situation around him, clearly IS being investigated — I mean, come on — but the DOJ doesn’t want to talk about it at this point (which is hardly surprising, why would they want to talk about an ongoing, highly secret and sensitive investigation?) — and that, because they don’t want tob talk about it, that leaves room for Spicer and Trump to deny knowledge of any such investigation — especially since they could hardly know the extent of it either.
But if you are saying what you seem to be saying in your last two paragraphs, then yes, I agree with the conclusion.
When Spicer says “there is no reason to believe,” he’s just saying that the DOJ never said Trump was being investigated. But they never said he wasn’t either.
I think that most of what you are finding difficult to parse is Spicer, who is obviously speaking in weasel language.
Because the DOJ is not saying anything that complicated: They did not tell Trump he was NOT being investigated, and they have no further comment.
yes, typo. I was rushing out the door. Apologies.
I just wish the powers who may or may not be investigating would treat the situation like a kidnapping. The first 48 hours are the most important. As far as I can tell there has been little investigating done; but, a whole lot of talking–and, the first 48 hours are long, long gone.
I think it’s not like the kidnapping situation – unless you replace 48 hours by first year. it must involve many branches of gov and the media and many people. it must be a very public discussion. it’s not about simply replacing T with P for example, it’s about all the violations of the constitution and the cravenness of republican congresscritters who are going along with T’s corruption for their own purposes. and what R congresscritters are doing has nothing to do with what voters want – take ACA, for example. Medicaid cuts, use of public lands, pipeline, cutting the State dept. have the Rs written any sort of lege that the T voters want much less the populace as a whole? I don’t think so.
This Taibbi quote stands out:”Thus we are now witnessing the extremely unusual development of intelligence sources that normally wouldn’t tell a reporter the time of day litigating a matter of supreme importance in the media.” I think the contacts with the media are intentionally timed for release with the full knowledge that targeted media contacts will have the greatest impact for whatever the intelligence community’s agenda seems to be. The whole thing has an orchestrated feel to it. This is why the public is enticed with a variation on a “Game Of Thrones.” It’s the reality show that’s far more intriguing than the lack luster “Apprentice.” Incidentally, my high school chum became a big shot at Sony Records in the 90’s, and over some beers and joints with him he sometimes would describe how a record company allows things to trickle out, all highly managed to have a desired media impact. This release of information on Trump sounds a lot like a 90’s launch campaign for a well oiled “alternative” band that the record company wants everyone to think is a genuine indy release by an obscure label.
Q: Is Trump being Investigated?
A: Yes. There is no doubt in my mind that Trump is being investigated
Q: Is It a legitimate investigation?
A: That depends on how you define the word “legitimate,” doesn’t it?
Q:Is it reasonable the think that he is a liar, a swindler and an outright mountebank?
A: Yes. It is eminently reasonable, on the evidence of his whole life.
Q: If that is true, then is it reasonable to investigate him? Especially in his position as president of the most powerful state in the world?
A: Yes.
Q: But if it is not strictly “legal” in the way it is being done…if the laws of the land prohibit certain kinds of investigations without first being cleared by the courts, and if doing so without that sort of approval opens precedents that threaten every citizen in the land with clandestine investigation for whatever reasons any investigators might feel are valid (including disagreeing with national policies as they now stand)…is the danger posed by Trump equal or superior to the dangers posed by illegal investigations?
A: Ah hah!!! Therein lies the nut of the problem, doesn’t it. This is the same problem that applies to Obama’s many extra-legal “executive orders” regarding surveillance and drone/special forces murders.
I have no answer.
Let us pray.
Amen
AG