I enjoyed reading Jeff Greenfield’s little history of the 25th Amendment, but his editor should have told him that the fact that in 1970 Richard Nixon “was often abusing alcohol and prescription drugs, leading to stretches of incoherence and irrationality” didn’t exactly distinguish him from other politicians or businessmen of the time. If we didn’t live through it, we’ve surely seen a few episodes of Mad Men. In any case, you can listen to the White House tapes of Nixon having conversations with Henry Kissinger and his top aides, Erlichman, Haldeman, Colson, and Dean. They were a den amoral scoundrels, but they didn’t appear to be high out of their tree. Other than occasional glitches, especially once he knew his presidency was doomed, Nixon’s problem wasn’t incapacity.
For Greenfield, the arguments against removing Trump from power using the 25th Amendment are threefold. First, there’s the aforementioned case that we’ve allowed incapacitated presidents to serve before so what’s the problem with letting Trump serve now?
The second is that the 25th Amendment wasn’t enacted for the purpose of removing a president so much as it was enacted to help select a vice-president when a vacancy occurs. This obviously happened when Agnew had to resign and also when Ford became president. This part of his argument isn’t persuasive because it doesn’t matter what an amendment was primarily meant to address so long as the amendment also addresses what we’re concerned with here, which is a Birther president who is manifestly unfit to safely run our government and handle things like a looming crisis on the Korean peninsula.
The third is that, well, it won’t happen so why talk about it?
The notion that Pence and a Cabinet majority will look at Trump’s next tweets or telephonic fulminations and decide he’s not fit for the job is beyond absurdity.
On this last point, I am not going to argue as a predictive analyst that Greenfield is wrong. If you want to place bets, I’d advise you to listen to Greenfield on this subject. On the other hand, the central thing that is absurd is that Donald Trump is the president of the United States. It is a full blown crisis. You can go around pretending that Trump is fully dressed if you want, but he’s not. If you discovered that your child’s school bus driver had taken to wearing a blindfold, you wouldn’t say that it’s absurd to have him removed from his job. And if he managed to successfully navigate the bus route for a few days despite his self-imposed disability, your comfort level would not grow.
The people who are most acutely aware of Trump’s mental deficiencies and titanic character flaws are those who have to deal with him every day, and they’re the only ones who can conceivably go to a Republican Congress and convince them that it’s just not safe to leave Trump behind the wheel.
Trump’s tweets are only a small part of the problem, but they’ve already caused problems with allies like Australia, Germany, Mexico and the United Kingdom. His policies and offhand remarks have created unnecessary tensions in places as diverse as Taiwan and Iraq.
So, the solitary point here is that the 25th Amendment is an option and the members of Trump’s cabinet can’t pretend that they don’t have ability to do something to save the country. They have the tool they need, and if the majority of Trump’s cabinet ever goes to Congress and tells them that the president isn’t fit to serve, they’ll only be telling Congress what the Democrats, the Intelligence Community, our allies, and every newspaper editorial board in the country has been telling them.
If they were ever to take that step, they’d have massive support. And, I believe, if James Mattis and a majority of the cabinet went to the Republicans in Congress and said that Trump cannot continue to be our president, that they’d have to listen.
In any case, they’d be much more likely to respond to an invocation of the 25th Amendment than they would be to impeach and convict the president on their own initiative.
This isn’t about what is likely to happen, or some fantasy. The fantasy is that Trump will become saner and more stable, or that he’ll somehow grow into the job.
To be clear, I’m not saying Trump has reached a tipping point yet where his cabinet should feel fully justified in removing him from power. I’m saying that that point will surely come, and his cabinet should be high alert to assure that we’re not having a nuclear exchange near Seoul before they’ve decided to act.
Pence’s complicity needs to be out there too. interesting observations from Tim Hogan
On the other hand if Pence and Trump both go, it’s President Ryan. But then the house descends into even more chaos likely.
All the way through the succession list and it still doesn’t get to Hillary. Which of these Rethugalicans do folks here prefer:
The cabinet looks like a decent insurance policy to thwart invocation of the 25th’s “not fit” clause.
Any of those people are better than Trump, by a wide margin.
Trump, personally, is the most dangerous thing to happen to this country in at least a century.
None of those people have Trump’s Satanic ability to inspire a crowd.
And you know that how? Some of them are even more ignorant and stupid than Trump.
Cuz ya know, that’s an astonishingly low bar you set flush with the ground, there.
Who (specifically!) from that list, in your wisdom, might still manage somehow to slither/limbo under it?
I said some. A few may be more informed and smarter, but they too may have major thinker clinkers. (Pence took the VP slot because his re-election was in trouble — trouble for a Republican in freaking Indiana. That’s telling right there.)
exactly one: Pence.
He’s your exemplar, then, of the “some” on that list who
I’d take Hatch.
They all suck, so we should do nothing. Obviously.
Shulkin, since hes the Obama hold over and was the designated survivor during the speech to congress.
Now all you need is a plan on how to remove the seventeen people ahead of him.
Tim Hogan’s theory, imo makes sense of all the puzzle pieces – how to get ourselves out of this mess? work like … pressuring congress and to elect a dem congress, plan for 2018; the leg. branch must step up in this crisis.
Been there; done that.
The operational model was simply elect more Democrats. No time to nitpick over the quality of Democrats. (aka don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Which always makes me want to gag because it’s how we’ve ended up with neoliberalcons controlling the Democratic Party since 1994 and for most of that time they’ve been in the minority.)
For ever so long Democrats were told that they lose because Republicans have more money. Then it wasn’t questioned why a “phenomenal” candidate also needed significantly more money to win.
Now are Democrats going to face the fact that the “most qualified candidate evah” with twice as much money lost to an inexperienced nincompoop?
yes, last time we needed to quickly replace the Speaker since Speaker is in line for succession, that worked out so well … oh wait!
Actually a couple ppl are mentioning that Ryan is extremely unpopular and WI has recall, so that might be a good route as well. and it should start Now.
here’s another from the thread where he gives his theory
The “Deep State” is all over it.
The 1787 Constitution is a fantasy.
I’m going to have to disagree with you for similar reasons that I disagreed with “Chris Christie’s Big Day of Failure”.
The Republicans don’t care what Trump does as long as he signs their bills. That is the only thing they care about. Hell, I doubt they even care about his war with the Freedom Caucus, which has stymied the GOP’s evil plans for not being evil enough.
The GOP does not care about nuclear exchange with N.Korea, as long as there’s something in it for them, and there is SO much in it for them: “emergency suspension of the Constitution” and money for military contractors (and campaign warchests).
Nothing matters to the GOP except power and more power. As long as Trump is signing, they don’t care.
Who are you referring to when you say “massive support”? Legislators?
This is a clearer elucidation of your thinking on the matter, well written. Thanks.
Lawrence O’Donnell had a good segment on this about a month ago. Laurence Tribe was among the guests.
http://www.msnbc.com/transcripts/the-last-word/2017-02-20
The same Lawrence Tribe who tweeted this:
The same Laurence Tribe who made some excellent points on the episode of The Last Word to which I linked.
Tribe is a knucklehead. Brits I follow on Twitter were mocking mocking the U.S. center-left for falling for a scam-artist like Mensch. She’s a Brexit supporting Tory. It would be the same as the center-left getting scammed by Sarah Palin.
Please seek help for your problems with reading comprehension and bother someone else.
I posted the Tribe tweet re: Mensch yesterday. I can’t help that you can’t handle it. Mensch has zero credibility. She’s considered a joke by her fellow Brits.
I will type very slowly so that you can follow:
Laurence Tribe never said a word about Louise Mensch in the episode of The Last Word to which I linked. Rather, he spoke from his area of expertise, constitutional law, and brought it to bear in an intelligent conversation about the 25th Amendment. What he tweeted a month later about Ms. Mensch’s extravagant conspiracy theories is irrelevant.
Please stop bothering me.
A clear elucidation but you are playing with fire. Imagine President Hillary Clinton having another shaking fit and a Republican Congress taking her out. Once this step is taken because you don’t like personality and politics, instead of it’s intent of a President in a coma or near death, then you invalidate the entire electoral process. “High Crimes and Misdemeanors”, that’s it!
You are urging the rush to Caesarism.
AFAIK, you have never sworn an oath to the Constitution; your citizenship being birthrate and never having been in federal service. I have so sworn three times and will have none of this. The voters elected him. you may regard the voters as assholes. Feel free to do so. Next time run a candidate that at least tries to hide their corruption. Don’t destroy democracy because you don’t like the results.
Democracy is being destroyed right now.
LOL!! It was destroyed 16 or so years ago.
Impeachment is the remedy for that, not the 25th amendment.
They impeached her husband, ffs. I’m sure if she were president, impeachment proceedings would already be in the works.
“Next time run a candidate that at least tries to hide their corruption.” You mean like Trump so brilliantly hid his?
You mean like “both sides do it – so it’s OK”?
No. I mean if the voters were turned off by corruption, they had a funny way of showing it as Trump is easily the most corrupt sack of shit to run in my lifetime. And I was around for Nixon.
Even Nixon didn’t take brazen quarter million dollar one hour “speaking fees” from G-S.
LOL. “speaking fees.”
You laugh at a presidential candidate taking her envelopes in full public view?
Right. Because we all know that getting speaker fees and ripping off students who enroll at a presidential candidate’s fake university are so totally the same thing. Gotta love this false equivalence stuff.
So Trump cheats students makes Clinton taking fucking BRIBES OK? Man, you are so deep into brand loyalty that yopu will never wise up to the fact that you are being taken. Unless you are in on the bribes, which is despicable but at least makes sense.
Listen ASSHOLES! ANYTHING that Trump has done does not excuse anything that Clinton has done. ANYTHING that Clinton has done does not excuse anything that Trump has done. YOU are the people trying to connect two sorry specimens of humanity.
And yeah, that’s going to be persuasive. You already lost my interest. Auf wiedersehen.
Can’t you guys admit Clinton’s buckraking was both corrupt and stupid? It’s equally stupid to not vote for her because of it, but we need to stop accept corrupt behavior. She was profiting from her time in office.
I think it is the false equivalence nonsense that I am tired of. We can certainly have a sensible conversation about matters such as speaking fees, but to continue to bring that up as if it is somehow even remotely in the same league as Twitler’s corruption is so over the top that it does not merit consideration. End of discussion.
Did ya click on the link? And getting paid to give speeches ain’t corrupt. Wish someone would toss me 250K to blow smoke for an hour.
I have long since given up arguing this stuff.
It is absurd.
There are very real fights to make and this has nothing to do with them.
It might get clicks, but the speculation is far removed from political reality.
The primary function of these arguments is to discredit those who make them.
In favor of just asserting your opinion that everyone is doing politics wrong but yourself. Thanks once again for your contributions.
I have to cast my lot, in general, with the considerations and comments of brendan. The Republicans, by and large, are willing to take the gamble on Trump. And I think there are quite a number of catastrophic events that could occur, simply due to the presence of Donald Trump in the White House, that still will not convince Republicans that it is time to intervene. As brendan cited, something like a nuclear exchange with North Korea, would be horrific. As much as it pains me to say, in this environment I think it might actually strengthen the status of Trump with a hell of a lot of people. That’s how fucked up we are right now, and will be for the foreseeable future. I think it is going to take either a cascade of unprecendentedly horrific incidents, or just irrefutable evidence that Trump has completely lost his fucking mind, before his cabinet goes on any “high alert” or feels justified in removing him from power. And by that time, I think the world will in shambles.
In the vacuum of the world of level headed wonkishnesh, where rationality and common sense would most likely prevail and drive the discourse, what you say makes perfect sense. But I’m not sure when we will ever be back at that point. The GOP is coveting this moment like no other in my lifetime. A madman doing some fucked up shit isn’t going to dissuade enough of them to take any sort of action. They are not anywhere near ready to consider his sanity or stability of mind or emotion. They have a hell of a lot of dismantling and destruction to do before they get anywhere near that item on their list.
Back? We never were never there. Obama, wonkish but he won because he was cool and inspiring. Clinton could talk policy with the best, but he “felt … pain.” Bush the elder maybe, but he won as Reagans heir didn’t he?
If the discourse was driven by rationality it was due to a narrow media landscape and participants who had strengths to compensate for wonkish weakness.
It seems to be a sickness of our world-dominant “Taker” culture that, even in putatively “democratic” societies, political will to meaningfully address the existential threats that confront us can only be generated by catastrophes accumulating toward self-annihilation of a scale to force that outcome . . . at which point it will likely be too late.
We must conclude that those Americans with mental deficiencies and titanic character flaws now have their champion.
It’s natural to be disgusted and demoralized to realize that our country is so full of them. Enough of them to elect a President.
“Everybody complains about politicians. Everybody says they suck. Well, where do people think these politicians come from? They don’t fall out of the sky. They don’t pass through a membrane from another reality. They come from American parents and American families, American homes, American schools, American churches, American businesses and American universities, and they are elected by American citizens. This is the best we can do folks. This is what we have to offer. It’s what our system produces: Garbage in, garbage out. If you have selfish, ignorant citizens, you’re going to get selfish, ignorant leaders. Term limits ain’t going to do any good; you’re just going to end up with a brand new bunch of selfish, ignorant Americans. So, maybe, maybe, maybe, it’s not the politicians who suck. Maybe something else sucks around here… like, the public. Yeah, the public sucks. There’s a nice campaign slogan for somebody: ‘The Public Sucks. F*ck Hope.” ~ George Carlin
If you strike at the king, you must kill the king. Pence and the boys won’t try anything unless it’s a sure thing.
The CIA has other ways of removing a president that is unacceptable to them.
Permanently.