J. Edgar Hoover died when I was still in nursery school, but I knew his name from about that time. People talked about him differently than they talked about anyone else. He was fearsome and untouchable because he knew secrets about everybody, especially the politicians in Washington. He seemed like some kind of evil Santa Claus who could control people’s fate depending on whether they’d been naughty or nice, and apparently every adult who mattered had been naughty. Nixon finally resigned a few weeks before I started kindergarten, but my house was filled with much older people and they discussed Watergate while I played with my blocks and trains. Hoover had been gone for over two years by then, but it felt like he’d had an influence even from the grave. I had to wait more than three decades to get a confirmation of that feeling, but it came when Deep Throat was revealed to have been Mark Felt, the Associate Director for Hoover’s FBI, who felt like he’d been unjustly passed over for a promotion after Hoover’s death.
Maybe James Comey shares little more in common with Hoover than former job titles, but he might be able to take down a president while he’s still living, and in broad daylight. For a lot of people, this is an example of a Deep State or an incompetent Establishment carrying out a coup that overrules the verdict the people made at the ballot box. And, it’s true, our clandestine services have been known to orchestrate coups and meddle in elections in other countries. The presumption in these cases is that this meddling is unjustified or even immoral, but I don’t know that people would have felt much differently about Watergate if they knew someone at the top of the FBI was leaking to Woodward and Bernstein. Nixon really had committed crimes and he really was committing more as he tried to cover his tracks. The way to make sure he was removed from office wasn’t to prosecute him. It was to make sure the people knew what he had done.
It’s obviously not just Comey who is crippling the president with leaks. There are leakers very close to the president, perhaps even in his inner circle. There are people leaking throughout the intelligence community and the Justice Department. They are doing so, most of them, because of sincere alarm and for patriotic reasons. And the result is this:
In interviews, multiple White House officials indicated they feel under siege — unsure who in the intelligence community was leaking, how much damaging information was out there, when the next proverbial shoe would drop and what Trump might say.
Staffers shuttled back and forth among West Wing offices debating what to say without divulging confidential material or getting anything wrong. A deflated and exhausted Sean Spicer, who continues to read reports that his job is in jeopardy while he works 12 hours every day in his office, huddled in his office with chief of staff Reince Priebus.
There was a pervasive sense, another official said, that “we are kind of helpless.”
I’m sure that Mohammad Mosaddegh and his aides felt similarly helpless in 1953 when the CIA was orchestrating his removal from office in Tehran. A year later, I feel certain that a sense of helplessness caused Jacobo Árbenz to flee the presidential palace in Guatemala City and seek asylum at the Mexican embassy. Near the end, Nixon felt helpless, too, and reportedly began drinking heavily and talking to the portraits in the White House.
We can debate who deserved their fate and who did not, but we should be clear that things look substantially the same regardless of which is side is wearing the black hats. Trump is getting taken down in a way I began predicting he would when he began publicly denigrating the Intelligence Community’s assessment of Russian involvement in the election. I don’t believe this would be happening if Trump were trustworthy and competent.
For example, had President Obama blundered by revealing sensitive information to the Russians that had been provided by the Israelis, the reaction would have likely been to quietly do damage control, explain to the president his error, and go on with the assumption that the mistake would not be repeated. When Trump did it, the damage control involved taking steps to remove him from office. How do I know this?
The ordinary way to minimize the damage from Trump’s leak would have been to quarantine knowledge that it had happened at all. This is for a variety of reasons. First, while there’s a fear the Russians will help ISIS track down the source of the information, there’s no certainty they will do so. Telling the whole world what happened almost assures that the informant’s life is at risk. Second, intelligence officers don’t want possible sources to know that the president can’t be trusted not to leak to our adversaries because it makes it difficult to recruit them. Advertising this makes their jobs immeasurably harder. Third, by telling the Israeli public what happened, it makes it more challenging for the Israeli government to share information with us. It would have been easier to patch things up with the Israelis if we had limited knowledge of what happened to a few key, reliable figures in their intelligence services and their cabinet. Yet, the intelligence community immediately revealed what Trump had done, and that the Israelis were the aggrieved party.
Another way of putting this is that the damage control plan from the beginning showed no signs of being an ordinary kind of plan. Every step is counterproductive. None of it makes any sense unless the real damage control plan is to remove Trump from power. If the conclusion is that the problem isn’t limited to a single blunder, but is systemic, any damage control plan that goes no further than triage and cleanup won’t be adequate.
I’ve been writing about this slow-moving coup in various ways for months now because its not well understood and it’s the most consequential thing going on in this country and the world right now. Nixon won a landslide reelection in 1972 even after many details of the Watergate burglary were reported, yet his efforts to obstruct justice were thwarted by leaks from the intelligence community. People generally don’t see this as a problem because Nixon was actually guilty and he was actually obstructing justice. But we can imagine a scenario where the intelligence community turns on an elected president because they disagree with him on policy and where the leaks are dishonest and the takedown is unjustified and undemocratic. It’s not a small thing to work for the president and then go running to the Washington Post to knife him when he screws up.
In Trump’s case, though, his operation has been the subject of a counterintelligence investigation for almost a year now. He appointed a man on the Kremlin’s payroll to be our national security advisor. He’s giving out information to the Russians that could get Israeli intelligence assets killed, or prevent us from stopping a mass casualty terrorist attack on civil aviation.
Nixon was abusing his power but we wasn’t endangering the country.
So, the proverbial shoes will keep dropping. The grand juries will start producing indictments. The pace will continue to make White House staffers feel helpless and under siege. It will get ratcheted up, step by step, until the GOP resistance in Congress breaks.
And it will be relatively easy to produce the material, both because Trump does most of the work himself, and because he has left such a rich trail to work with, going back decades.
Whenever it ends, the heroes will be reporters in the media rather than the unnamed sources who drove the process.
That’s the plan, anyway. We’ll see if Trump has the stuff to weather this storm.
the “intelligence community” is turning into the Praetorian Guard that installs emperors and then replaces them.
That’s a phenomenon just as dangerous to what’s left of our republic as Trump is.
Yeah, I want to be clear that it’s happening and that it’s dangerous.
But Trump is more dangerous.
Did the CIA consider Valerie Plame a one time blunder?
Scooter Libby was convicted, wasn’t he?
And DCI Poppy Bush made sure son didn’t give him a full pardon.
“… turning into the Praetorian Guard”?
They have ALWAYS been the Praetorian Guard. Maybe that’s why I see this differently than some here.
https://www.amazon.com/Praetorian-Guard-U-S-World-Order/dp/0896083950
We haven’t had much of a republic for quite a while.
But you’re wrong about Trump — he IS more dangerous. He will destroy the little that’s left.
In other words, the “intelligence community” is doing what they’ve always done, but they are doing it under circumstances that (for once) actually demand it. Trump, as I say, is the biggest threat to this country I’ve ever seen in my lifetime, and they are the only ones capable of dealing with it.
Ross Douthat is now on board with the 25th Amendment option.
Suppose Pence and enough Cabinet members screwed up their courage to write the requisite letter to Congress declaring Trump unfit to serve. Trump would of course challenge it. It would then be for Pence and his supporters to write another letter to Congress, at which point Congress would decide the issue in a way that the 25th Amendment does not specify. Simple majority vote in both houses? Two-thirds majority vote? The 25th Amendment is completely silent about this.
Another point: It would be nice to fantasize that Congress would make the decision dispassionately for the good of the country, but isn’t it more likely that it would all turn into political horse-trading?
So…I’m of the school of thought hoping for a resignation.
I don’t think anything that removes Trump is going to happen but I think any removal of Trump for any reason except election loss will probably touch off some sort of armed terrorism movement.
If right wing terrorism is part of the outcome of tossing Cheeto Benito out of office, we’ll just have to weather it. Fear of possible alternative outcomes is not a good reason to avoid doing what it appears likely will need to be done.
Create two, three, many Oklahoma Cities!
(Apologies to Sr. Guevara….)
Meanwhile:
https://twitter.com/goldengateblond/status/864864185854828545
I’m trying to imagine the scenario that he does weather the storm. How much more dangerous will he be if he comes out on the other end with a whole new understanding about the need for absolute ruthlessness in order to insure loyalty and to wean out anyone, by whatever means necessary, who has even a whiff of suspicion about them.
That seems like a very scary circumstance to me.
he can’t weather the storm
by this I mean, he cannot change himself to become more discreet, circumspect and curb his recklessness; it’s the old light bulb situation, it has to want to change and nothing indicates he does. Also it’s too late to recover the trust of the institutions and groups he’s alienated.
I think he’ll weather the storm, at least for the next few years. I don’t think he’s capable of developing new strategies or approaches, though, in terms of increased ruthlessness.
However, I do think we’ll be trapped in repeats of the past four months. He’ll authorize the use of a MOAB-like, never-before-authorized military technology. He’ll clear attacks that kill lots of people–including Americans–without achieving any substantial goals. He’ll appoint people who try to tear down the national park system, to defund schools, and to amp up the War on Drugs in as racist a manner as possible, he’ll leak intelligence in increasingly-dangerous ways, he’ll destroy the country’s reputation with allies and trade partners, he’ll try to obstruct justice and turn the DOJ into a personal fiefdom.
‘More of the same’ is terrifying enough.
And intelligence will just sit there twiddling their thumbs?
No.
If the IC is half as Rotten, Ruthless, and Reprehensible as Purity Ponies say it is, they’ll just off Trump and Pence to restore the old system if it came down to Trump surviving this because the rest of the Republican Party is ‘Okay’ with it.
I was almost about to agree with your Purity Ponies until it occurred to me that if the IC is actually worthy of the adjective “intelligent”, they must realize that the Republican Party really is NOT ‘OK’, inasmuch as this is the same Republican Party that brought us Trump. So that with Trump gone (not sure in what sense you mean “offed”), the GOP will remain the black hole of chaos, and probably a lot more so — as it consists almost entirely of people primed to become still more vicious if their precious Trump gets the boot.
As for Pence, I think he may be a different story. Pence could conceivably be OK if kept on a short leash. I really could see that.
I actually think that, for all their expertise in destabilizing other countries, the IC understands that at the present time, powers both foreign and domestic are destabilizing THIS country. And that means that what the IC actually wants is to restore stability. Now admittedly there are different ways to do that. All I can say is, not all of them are bad.
how will he weather the storm? he can’t help the legislators pass their agenda, he’s giving away intel from our allies,
the R congresscritters are caught, in some ppl’s reading they’ve already lost – they’re sticking with T in order to pass their cuts to everything agenda, but he can’t help them with that, and the longer they stay with him the more they’re likely to go down with the wreckage.
re: Pence, btw, he’s very much implicated in the Flynn and Comey situations – he was out giving the initial line about Comey at first, and he was in charge of transition, must have heard from Yates.
so we don’t know, if T is out, what happens next, regular succession? or what? but that must be discussed in Congress when we get there.
Amash, last I heard was the only R who’s seriously broken w. T
http://www.metafilter.com/166945/Obstruction-of-Justice-Witness-Intimidation-Oh-My#7031085
I think Trump would have been in court constantly had he lost. So much stuff was dug up on him it was unbelievable. Trump University was the least of it. I pretty much expected him to land in prison at least for a short time.
Things are worse now.
I don’t think resignation would diminish his problems, at all. He’ll probably stick it out and maybe even start pardoning people preemptively, perhaps including himself.
It will be an extremely interesting social experiment to watch how the citizens watching Watergate and the citizens watching Putingate perform. Compare and contrast the country over the course of almost 5 decades. One great scandal occurred prior to the dawn of the Conservative Era, while the current one lies deeply within it.
Balkin over at Balkinization has an interesting post up distinguishing between “constitutional crisis” and “constitutional rot”, arguing that we are deep in the process of the latter. Citizens, nations and institutions in the throes of constitutional rot should perform much more poorly over time. Even within the space of a decade St Reagan paid very little meaningful price for his lawbreaking.
Nixon surely didn’t need to burgle the hapless Dems in order to win reelection, but Der Trumper almost certainly thought he needed some extra juice to “win” given his consistent lagging in the polls. So he looked for some Russian Dressing almost certainly. But both scandals revolve around a Repub prez candidate seeking to gain an unfair election advantage, a rigging of the game. So even over the course of 50 years we see the constant: “Repubs cheat!”—sort of like the speed of light!
If the Intel Community has indeed cast this die, it is very hard to believe there is no there there, no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. And Der Trumper is certainly behaving like a guilty party. Indeed, knowledge of guilt is basically the only plausible explanation for the WH’s actions.
As for the “deflation and exhaustion” of the horrible people who raced to aid and abet Trumper’s WH, one could not possibly care less. Clear out and good riddance. Don’t worry, there’s always another amoral “conservative” turd to step into the breach. Hopefully they all turn out to be cannon fodder…
Hope you’ll be happy with a religious fanatic (Pence) as President. Say goodbye to any abortion rights.
Do you imagine that Trumper just appointed a SC justice who will uphold such rights?
I don’t.
And Pence will have a much more compliant Congress. It also poses a problem for the “resistance.” Many of us (me included) have dipped our toes in protest for the first time because we see Trump as so far out of the American mainstream. Pence is a conventional politician, a typical Republican. Of course, “typical Republican” does not give confidence, since the Republican party has gone batsh*t crazy over the past few decades. Even so, it will be hard to maintain the momentum to oppose him.
I think you’re asking for too much all at once.
Pence shouldn’t be your focus.
I’m not quite sure what to make of your complaint. If the “resistance” is so shallow that it evaporates in the absence of Trump, then it would appear to not be much more than a paper tiger. Based on my experience with the local resistance, I would largely disagree with that assessment.
The time and place to deal with Pence and Ryan would be in the midterm elections. From all I have heard from resistance folks, those midterms are their focus. Why else is there a balls to the wall effort to recruit candidates where there have been none previously?
It sounds as if you are looking for a walk-off grand slam to win the game. Afraid that is not going to happen.
I sincerely hope you’re right, that the midterms will bring a thorough repudiation of the Republicans. I’m troubled by the structural imbalances described by Booman and others. I also hope you are correct that, even if Trump leaves the scene, folks will remain engaged at the local and state level.
If the Democrats cannot overcome the unequal playing field created by gerrymandering and voter suppression, do you think the reaction will be apathy, or torches-and-pitchforks? Booman seems to think it will be the latter. I don’t know, but either possibility is troubling.
By the way, Mike-in-Ohio – I’m new to this site, but your comments usually catch my eye. I grew up in a red state, and may move back there soon. So much of what you say rings true. Thank you for your perspective.
Yes, the structural inequities faced by Democrats are significant. And in many places it has been a Sisyphean task to even get Democrats to run for office. I know in our area the large number of Democrats stepping forward to run for office now is a bit unprecedented, which is a very good thing. I live in a 70-30 Republican County, so seeing this many Democrats volunteer to take the plunge and run is impressive. But there are still so many unknowns.
I tend to side with BooMan on the reaction if Democrats cannot overcome the purposeful hurdles put in place by Republicans. There seems to be something a bit different this time around concerning the level of anger we are seeing and the resolve being displayed in places and by people which we have never seen before. I am much more troubled by the prospect of apathy than I am torches and pitchforks. I think this is one of those times when a metaphorical show of torches and pitchforks might actually be an avenue which could be considered appropriate.
AngryTeacher, let me welcome you to The Pond, as it is called. I think you will find this a very informative and engaging place. I’ve been around here for a number of years. Not sure exactly how many. I have spent my entire life in a very red area, so I feel sorry for your potential move back to a red state. But even in the place that I live, there is a vibrant core of Democrats who are not shy about making some necessary noise. And the local GOP recognizes that we will boldly stand up for our beliefs. We are a very tight knit group and are all proud of our liberal values.
Pence is at least rational.
I don’t follow the argument that we should just sit back and root for one Trumpian fuckup after another because Pence is a diehard movement conservative. Does anyone need to be reminded that Trump has the nuclear codes?????
Look up his record in Indiana. He was to crazy to be re-elected in Indiana!
Hopefully He(Pence) will be caught up in the scandal,
Paul Ryan as well
It is interesting that the WH used Pence as the pretext for firing Nutjob Flynn, seemingly an effort to try and insulate him. But this could be just more flailing around to come up with any way out of the Scandal of the Week. Or cleverness on the part of Pence’s staff, since those serving Trumper seem like the B team, haha.
It will be interesting when and if Dems ever start to direct criticism Dummy Pence’s way. Surely if this scandal develops as Booman predicts, they should see the need to argue the entire 2016 election was invalid, including Pence as VP…
Trump resigns. Pence pardons him for everything, including any actions Trump committed as a civilian. Republican agenda passes without a hitch, Trump returns to the grift, the rest of us are fucked.
Man. That’s depressing.
Pence can’t pardon state offenses, nor can he waive the remedies of federal civil courts.
There’s plenty of rakes left for Trump to step on even if Pence pardons him.
actually state actions vs. him is one thing some talk about – NY State, CA
Even as a confirmed glass half empty person, this is a little too neat. Pardoning Nixon was Ford’s great albatross, and certainly no help to Repubs.
That pardon, of course, occurred pre-Conservative Era, and we live in another time. But pardoning lawbreaking prezes is a stigma and a drag on a party.
Trumper is the clear and present danger, but the ultimate problem is the Repub party and the “conservative” movement, funded by the plutocrat class. They are the Great Satan. If they can’t be defeated, then the country is finished. Pence is just another faceless stooge of those forces, even if an utterly incompetent unqualified buffoon as prez was the logical endpoint of the “conservative” movement and its vitriolic hatred of gub’mint.
Fascinating post. We are about the same age, Booman. One of my earliest memories is sitting on my mother’s lap, watching Nixon walk out to the helicopter on the day he resigned. Even as a toddler, I had the sense that something big was happening. Today I teach civics and economics to teenagers, and I’m trying to get them to pay attention to the history happening around us.
I need to read up on how the intel community treated Carter. I’m trying to think of previous presidents who crossed the intelligence and defense establishments, and Carter is the first one who came to mind. I don’t remember any particular leaks or attempts to undermine, but I’m sure I’m missing some. Certainly many of them supported Reagan.
Booman writes:
Yeah…but…wait a minute, Booman!!!
More two-dimensional thinking is afoot here.
What if both sides are wearing the black hats?
What then?
One is a little lighter, maybe?
Kinder, gentler thieves? More justifiable murderers?
I’m not buying it, and I don’t think that others should buy it either.
Please define “trustworthy and competent.” Trustworthy according to whom and competent at what, exactly? If one works as a frontman for a mafia gangster…a politician, say, or a cop or a newspaper writer…and does good work for them, is that not being “trustworthy and competent?”
Of course the Imperial/Permanent Government/New Age/Deep State/Situational Morality riposte to this idea is always some riff on “The Lesser of Two Evils” followed by a lecture on the imperfectability of humankind, but really, Booman!!! Imperfectible we may well be, but with all of the possible “evils” available from which to choose, where is it written that we are only supposed to be able to choose between just two?
These two, particularly.
You write:
You’re damned right we can. And if we we don’t possess the intellectual wherewithal to imagine such a thing, we can simply watch the efforts that are unfolding right in front of our eyes. Do you for even a moment believe that if Trump…bumbling fool though he may well be…was making these kinds of errors but had basically signed on to the neolib/neoconPermaGov line that the (what we laughingly call) “Intelligence Community” would be workring overtime to take him the fuck down?
Please!!!
Hell no!!! he’d be surrounded by minders just as Cheney and Rove surrounded the Bush II Bumbler King…Fool Whisperers for the Deep State. Bush II knew his limitattions. They had been thoroughly proven to him during his long, failed career as a “businessman,” and he was quite content to play the fool for a few years in exchange for…for whatever he wanted to get out of it.
Quite content.
Trump is cut from another cloth entirely. He was as successful in business as Bush II was unsuccessful. He has that killer instinct, an impulsive nature that makes all his underlings fear him and the only things predictable about him are his vicious unpredictability and his narcissistic view of himself as some kind of natural-born, decision-making genius.
He’s ripe for the picking, of course, but…at what cost?
I don’t like the pickers much, either.
You?
ASG
Arthur’s conclusions serve Trump’s interests. Again.
Centerfielddj’s conclusions serve the Permanent Government’s interests. Again.
Eventually we are all going to be forced to choose among many competing interests and approaches
I await a practical third choice.
Until then?
I take care of my own business as best as I can.
AG
You’ve got nothing useful here.
Your Ron Paul evangelizing and range of regressive policy views help us understand your motivations for writing this mush.
You are the “mush,” centristfield.
The mush in the middle of the DC swamp.
Someone…hopefully…will come along to drain that swamp.
Trump? He’s just another parasite.
You?
You are an example of the real “deplorables.”
The ones that HRC missed completely because she is part and parcel of the deplorable centrist power center.
If you…and they…win?
We will all be slaves.
Slaves of the rich.
You?
Go pick some cotton.
AG
Your own, or my own, or centerfielddj’s own politics notwithstanding, in just about any country you look at with democratic governance, it is rare for We The People to elect governments that are either hard-core right-wing or hard-core left-wing. To adopt your lexical choices, AG, We The People tend to elect centrist mush. It might be left-centrist mush or right-centrist mush, but mush it is.
No doubt someone will point out an exception, but I think it’s fair to generalize and write that hard-left or hard-right governments do not come to power by democratic means.
Thus your blanket condemnations of “centrist mush” amount to a condemnation of democratic politics.
A well-earned condemnation of “democratic politics” it seems to me, at least as it has been practiced in the U.S. since the JFK assassination.
Were the JFK, RFK, MLK Jr. and Malcolm X murders “democratic politics?”
How about the phony runup to the Iraq War?
How about the heroin and crack epidemics that were sponsored by state entities in order to break the single most threatening dissident group in the nation, the black urban population and society?
How about the massive buyout of the entire electoral and media system by huge, politically and economically-motivated money?
There is nothing “democratic” about what is going on here, JDW. One vote, one person? Yes, in theory. But if those people are lied to at an astounding rate 24/7, if their educational systems have in no way prepared them to be able to see through the advertising-inspired lies beamed at them on thousands of different media? It’s no longer “democracy,” it is plain and simple idiocracy. And we are all witnesses to the election of the logical result of all of this downrating of information and education, Donald “You’re FIRED!!!” Trump.
You centrists asked for it with your constant dumbing-down of political dialogue, and now you’ve got it.
Deal wid it.
AG
“You centrists asked for it with your constant dumbing-down of political dialogue, and now you’ve got it.”
So centrists are responsible for those assassinations, for the lies of Dubya and Cheney and Rumsfeld and Powell, for addiction, for Supreme Court decisions that gutted even modest campaign finance reform, for people who won’t pay a few more tax dollars to improve their local schools? Methinks you’re reaching a bit in your scapegoating efforts.
So, centrists. You condemn them, but what’s your policy agenda, and what’s its ideological foundation? You’re way too busy condemning others to present your agenda and your ideology aside from tantalizing tidbits praising the Pauls frère et fils. Let me tell you a few things about your favorites Ron and Rand Paul. Yeah, they’re “Libertarians” insofar as they don’t like foreign intervention, but otherwise, they’re quite keen on gutting campaign-finance law and starving public schools, say, all in the name of some idiotic Libertarian ideology.
I wrote:
“You centrists asked for it with your constant dumbing-down of political dialogue, and now you’ve got it.”
This post is a perfect example of that dumbing-down.
Thank you.
ASG
P.S. My “agenda?” Ether tear the whole edifice down and start again or successfully cooperate in electing people who oppose corporate ownership of everything in sight, including their own mortal asses.
Unlike say…these three:
Unfortunately, the second possibility is very unlikely until some major changes occur in how the country is governed.
You?
Meh…
Everyone keeps reminding us that Watergate played out over a period of two years plus. But most of that time was spent trying to prevent the release of the 23 June tape. After it came out (as mandated by a 9-0 Supreme Court decision that even Nixon never thought of defying), it was all over in a couple of days.
Comey’s memo is the exact equivalent of the 23 June tape.
The incentives for the Republican Party are very different today from what they were in 1974. The “base”, less powerful then than now, were happy to let Nixon go for his transgressions against True Conservatism. Today Trump is the figurehead for True Conservatism and True Conservatism has devolved into the destruction of institutions, for the sake of unaccountability and for its own sake. The base won’t respect any action that the institutions take.
I disagree about Comey’s memo. Already one can read commentary to the effect that the memo doesn’t mean a damn thing–that it’s hearsay–in the absence of witnesses to the conversation between Trump and Comey.
Been listening to GOP spin, have you? This sort of FBI memo is considered evidentiary.
Ask a Trump supporter if he thinks the memo is evidentiary.
My point about equivalence came to content, not to reception. But the only possible response of Trump’s people should be, not that the memo is fabricated, exaggerated, or hearsay, but that it is precisely accurate and that is a good thing because this is how it should be done. If they haven’t got the face to make that argument, then fcku them even more than usual.
Somewhere I saw it said specifically that FBI memos are evidence. Do not recall where, but I did find this (my emphasis added):
yes, that was observed on msnbc shows yesterday
Daily 202:
“Daily 202“
This is a line of argument that will be highly persuasive to prosecutors, judges and those of a legalistic mindset. Great, you win the argument on those grounds. But you act as if the removal of a president from office is just like a criminal prosecution. It’s not. It’s inherently a political act.
Lulz.
The Trump Administration is a submarine being visited by a massive barrage of depth charges, one after another after another. The submarine is losing its maneuverability and weapons capabilities.
Like most of the other people who populate the centrist middle, centristfielddj is a mindless, cowardly downrater who cannot defend his or her own positions except by the use of stupid “ratings.”
Rate this, coward.
You ain’t shit.
AG
I despise the ratings system but the only thing worse is reading people whine about people using or abusing the ratings system.
Some people just don’t like you. Who cares.. get over it.
You know, ishmael…there are good enemies and not-so-good enemies. Good disagreements and not-so-good ones. People who just wiggle their fingers in front of their nose, go “Nyah nyah nya nyah nyah” and post platitudinous, one or two line centrist foolishness are simply useless baggage. Every once in a while I feel compelled to pin one of them. Sorry if it bothers you.
I actually think that the ratings system is a very good, democratically-based idea. I also think that…like many democratically-based ideas…it becomes useless if misused by too many people too often. It tends to flatten things out and eliminate…or at the very least discourage…the outliers. You get this vast middle…much like Congress, and I suppose much like the population of the U.S…that basically does as little as possible to to allow new thoughts, to allow people to try to change the change the status quo as it now stands simply because it isn’t working very damned well.
As with Congress and the U.S. in general, I have no real, guaranteed-effective idea about how to make the system work better. A continuing series of downratings from specific people should be controlled in some way, but that puts the onus of doing so on one person, the one who runs the discussion site. At dKos, that produced an almost totally flat cross-section of posters as Kos played his Little King role to the hilt and summarily kicked people off the site that did not fit his own, personal program. Booman has not gone this route and I applaud him for his efforts.
In the long run, it is up to each of us to deal with the flatlanders any way we can. I ignore them about 90% of the time…I mean, they are just gnat bites, really… but every once in a while one or two or three of them gang up and form a cloud of gnats. Things get itchy, and I am compelled to scratch a little…maybe at least make some others realize what is going down.
So it goes…
AG
I remain flummoxed about what real-world consequences there are for you or for readers here of having someone give your comments a low rating.
Theoretically, one can be downrated right off the site, JDW. A constant barrage of “1”s progressively lowers a poster’s overall rating, and a coup de grace becomes more and more possible. Furthermore, people who do not know the ins and outs of the site…newbies, etc…see the ratings and form their opinions on that basis rather than making up their own minds over a period of time.
Here are Arthur Gilroy or Oui making some comments, and here are their downrated numbers. They must be assholes of some kind, right? Meanwhile, the downraters rarely if ever stand up and dare to argue…with good reason…they just post ratings.
Howzat for your “democratic process,” JDW.
Potshots from cover, never a stand-up competition.
Cowards.
Backstabbers.
Understand now?
AG
I look at this blog because I see a diversity of interesting opinions (including yours) and also learn a fair bit about diverse topics. I’ve never given anyone a rating. Nor have I ever looked at how you or anyone else rated a comment by me. It never occurred to me that these comment threads were akin to movie reviews.
I guess if Booman wants to kick me off the island, well, it’s his blog, his choice. And I guess if you want to get angry about “backstabbers” who don’t like what you’ve written, that’s your choice. I just think it’s a completely unproductive choice that’s going to give you heartburn.
I don’t get “heartburn,” JDW. That comes from the suppression of emotion, reasoning and concomitant bad food habits.
You?
ASG
That goes for nalbar too. How does it feel to wake up a coward every day, nalbar?
Stick your ratings where the sun don’t shine.
AG