From Counterpunch.
Trump is Guilty, of Something
by Andrew LevineDonald Trump is guilty of something, guilty as sin. Nobody outside his innermost circle knows yet what he is guilty of, and all the evidence is circumstantial. But guilty he surely is.
Is it that the Trump campaign colluded with the Russians to defeat Hillary Clinton? That is the story line that corporate media take for gospel truth. It is not out of the question that some Russians, some of whom had some connection with the Russian government, hacked into something. Even if they did, however, the Russian meddling story is ridiculously overblown – for reasons that are politically self-serving and irresponsibly, if not criminally, dangerous.
If catastrophic outcomes can somehow be avoided, that story will eventually go the way of Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction. Before that happens, however, count on Vladimir Putin’s affront to the “integrity” of American democracy being used to justify devastating, potentially catastrophic, diplomatic and military adventures — in much the way that Saddam Hussein’s WMDs once were.
By the time the dust settles, it will likely become clear that either there never was any reason to accept the party line on Russian meddling or that, even if there was something to it, there was never any reason to get all worked up about it.
This is not to say that “Russiagate” investigations should be opposed; quite to the contrary, there is every reason to support them fully.
If nothing else, investigations like Robert Mueller’s and the ones underway in the House and Senate help keep Trump and the people he has brought into his administration from executing their nefarious agendas. Better yet, they are likely, before long, to bring Trump himself down – in ways that would make it harder for Trump’s appointees and, when the times comes, for Mike Pence to turn many of the progressive gains of the past hundred or so years around.
But the fact remains: the election meddling furor is, at best, a red herring – about which all one can honestly say, for now, is: Who knows? Who cares?
Read on for more.
Who knows – because the only reason to think that there was Russian meddling is that “the intelligence community” says there was. But, as everybody knows or ought to know, they are inveterate liars. Lying is in their genes and in their job descriptions.
Moreover, if history is a guide, they are just as likely to be wrong as to be right, even when they aren’t deliberately telling lies.
Everybody also knows that the CIA in particular is not above politicizing intelligence when it serves some institutional purpose.
Who knows too – because liberal and not-so-liberal media have been pressing the case for Russian election meddling so vigorously for such a long time that the idea has become almost second nature to all but the most circumspect consumers of news. In cases like this, the wisest course of action usually is to become more, not less, skeptical.
It is hard to say which media outlet is the most at fault; the competition is so intense. The Washington Post and The New York Times are serious contenders, though it must be said, in fairness, that the Trump menace seems to have reignited a taste for real investigative reporting – about Trump – in both of them. For that, one could forgive a great deal.
But they are still, on the whole, a servile lot. My vote for the worst of them all is MSNBC, with Joy Reid leading the way and Rachel (take twenty minutes to make a twenty second point) Maddow close behind.
A character in Edgar Allan Poe’s “The System of Doctor Tarr and Professor Fether” advised believing only half of what one sees and nothing that one hears. Inasmuch as most of what one sees and hears about Russian meddling in the 2016 election are breathless repetitions of claims originating in the intelligence services, this is good advice in the case at hand.
—snip—
For getting mainstream media to sign on to the election meddling narrative, it would be difficult to underestimate the importance of the role played by a key component of the power structure in the United States today, the Democratic Party.
That is how desperate Democrats are to make sure that Clinton’s stunning, self-inflicted defeat last November will not be Clintonism’s (neoliberalism’s, liberal imperialism’s) last hurrah. To that end, they have been willing, even eager, to revive Cold War demons that had lain dormant for decades; bringing the world to the brink of a nuclear apocalypse.
Ostensibly the less noxious of the two neoliberal parties that dominate our politics, Democrats today have sunk so low that were Republicans still no worse than they were, say, when they fell into line behind George W. Bush and Dick Cheney’s Afghanistan and Iraq Wars, or even before Obama’s 2008 electoral victory made many rank-and-file Republicans bat shit crazy, it would now be an open question which party actually is the greater evil of the two.
The consensus view in mainstream media lately, in the Democratic Party, and increasingly in the Republican Party as well, is that Trump is doing grave harm to the office of the Presidency and to many of the institutions, both domestic and international, through which the United States has dominated the world since 1945.
This is certainly the case. But, contrary to what is assumed throughout the power structure, it is at least debatable whether Trump’s effect on these institutions – and the negative effect his presidency is having on the GOP itself – is, on balance, a good or bad thing.
Instead of rallying around the Democratic Party, a genuine Left would itself be taking aim at the bastions of empire and class rule that Trump is mindlessly but inexorably undoing. Trump’s way is nihilistic and thuggish; and the only alternatives he or his cabinet secretaries and agency heads have in mind are odious even by Republican standards.
This is why the Trump presidency is, and will continue to be, an unmitigated disaster – no matter how much damage Trump does to the old world order or to some of the more disabling institutional arrangements afflicting the political scene.
Democrats can be and, for the most part, actually are, monumentally awful, but Republicans who support Trump are worse. This would not be so plainly the case, if the comparison was with pre-9/11 Republicans or even with the Republican Party before the 2008 election.
After all, if the appropriate metric is damage to world peace, geopolitical stability, and the wellbeing of humankind, Bush is still the worst President ever. Of course, if Trump mentally decomposes more than he already has, or if he starts acting out in exceptionally lethal ways, he could surpass even the standard Bush has set. For now, though, six months into the Trump era, W remains Number One How revealing, therefore, that the very media that, to their credit, have nothing good to say about the billionaire buffoon, are now welcoming Bush, and his underlings, back into the fold.
In polite society nowadays, Obamaphiles, including Obama himself and his First Lady, even seem to regard Bush the Younger as one of the good guys; and miscreants from his administration are featured in all the leading media outlets. How pathetic is that!
—snip—
Democrats are generally nicer than Republicans, and many times more civilized. Were their self-exonerating anti-Russian, anti-Putin campaigning not so dangerous, they would plainly be the good guys still, comparatively speaking.
Even with their hysterical Russophobia, they probably still are. But being comparatively less awful than the GOP is no reason to buy into the election meddling story that Democrats are so assiduously promoting.
It is possible, of course, that despite all the reasons to be skeptical of their narrative, there is some truth in what they say. Even if there is, however, why make such a big deal or it? Who cares?
Evidently, pundits with venting privileges on ostensibly liberal cable networks and Democratic Party sore losers do, but their concerns are misdirected. No one, not even the worst of the worst on MSNBC, claims that those dastardly Russian meddlers affected the outcome of the election in any significant way. Russians didn’t defeat Hillary Clinton; she defeated herself.
It is not for want of trying that no one has been able to make a plausible case for the claim that, but for Russian meddling, Clinton would have beaten Trump. But, alas, no one has been able to maintain that Russians had anything to do with collecting or counting votes, or that they interfered with the workings of the electoral process in any other way.
The idea instead is that they depressed Democratic turnout by diminishing enthusiasm for Clinton. They did this, supposedly, by providing evidence of the Democratic National Committee’s efforts to rig the election for Hillary and against Bernie Sanders, and by demeaning Clinton in ways that Democrats and their friends in the mainstream press don’t even bother to try to spell out.
If only the Democrats and their media flacks would evince half as much self-righteous indignation over past and on-going Republican efforts at voter suppression! There is no doubt that they were real and that their consequences were significant. Neither is the case with alleged Russian voter suppression efforts last year.
Moreover, even if the Russians did do all that our propagandists claimed they did, they did nothing worse than what countless homegrown political operatives do when they sell candidates to voters in more or less the way that commercial advertisers sell the wares they peddle to targeted audiences.
The difference is morally significant. If the Russians actually did suppress voter turnout in 2016, it was through one or another form of persuasion. Republicans suppress votes by making it difficult, or impossible, for likely Democratic voters; African Americans and other “persons of color” mainly, but also students, and many elderly citizens; to exercise their right to vote.
The consensus view notwithstanding, the Russian election meddling narrative is short on compelling evidence, and is grounded in a patently defective rationale. Even so, it could still have merit.
But even if there was meddling as charged, nothing much came of it. This has always been obvious, and it too is significant.
Sanders supporters didn’t need Russians to tell them that the Democratic Party wanted Bernie to lose and Hillary to win. Everyone paying attention knew that already. Clinton’s shortcomings were also evident for all to see.
Therefore, if the story line being pushed by our “manufacturers of consent” is on track, it would only show that those Russians are not nearly as clever as the propagandists vilifying them would like people to think. By documenting the obvious, what they did made about as much sense as throwing buckets of water into the ocean.
Why then is Trump putting the extent of his ineptitude on display by acting as if he is about to block the Mueller investigation into Russian meddling? Trump may not be the magisterial dealmaker his remaining fans believe him to be, but he is surely not as self-destructively stupid as his actions suggest.
The answer must be that he really does have something to hide; something more damaging than anything the mainstream media narrative suggests.
Trump doesn’t know much, but he surely does know that Congressional investigations and Justice Department investigations involving special prosecutors take on lives of their own, even when, in the first instance, they are much ado about nothing. Watergate was only “a third-rate burglary,” after all.
He is also shrewd enough to realize that his business machinations give Congress and the Justice Department plenty to investigate. There is sleaze galore out there, waiting to be uncovered.
Therefore, in the weeks and months ahead, if Trump is still around – or even if he returns to the gilded monstrosity on Fifth Avenue that he had built to glorify himself, leaving arch-reactionary Mike Pence in charge; we will have loads of well-corroborated reports of shady (artful?) deals with Russian oligarchs and, insofar as there is a difference, Russian mobsters, making the news interesting again.
This is sheer speculation, of course; and the evidence, what there is of it so far, is circumstantial. Much of it consists of idiotic tweets that suggest nothing more damning than an acute consciousness of guilt.
Nevertheless, I would bet the ranch, if I had one to bet, that honest and determined investigators with subpoena power scratching beneath the surface, will find incontrovertible proof of legal, moral, or political infractions so egregious that even the fools who still refuse to admit that Trump conned them into thinking that, as President, he would somehow make their lives better, will find it impossible to keep on standing by their man.
Trump is guilty, a hundred times over; and it is plain as day too that whatever it turns out to be that he is guilty of, that his over-arching cupidity and vanity made him do it.
Finding out what he is guilty of should be at the top of every competent authority’s to do list. It should also become a consuming passion of journalists who, for their own good and the good of the public they serve, no longer want to propagandize for the beneficiaries of the status quo.
Because the power structure is so thoroughly and uniformly intent on dumping Trump - not for wholly creditable reasons, but, for a matter of such urgency, that hardly matters - opportunities for doing authentic journalism, even in the face of the propaganda mechanisms Herman and Chomsky identified, now exist to a degree that would have seemed unimaginable before November 2016.
It is a complicated business, however because the same anti-Trump animosities that make it possible to mobilize the press against the government also enable the Democratic Party to enlist support, in media circles and more generally, for the demonization of Putin and his government, with all the dangers that ensue.
So, by all means, investigate, investigate, and investigate some more – taking care, however, not to be sidetracked onto false paths where perils of Clintonite design threaten to spin out of control in ways that even competent statesmen, like Putin and Sergey Lavrov, would have a hard time diffusing, if they still had reasonable interlocutors in Washington to work with.
Those are, to put it mildly, in short supply. With Trump in the White House and a bipartisan (but Clinton inspired) neocon consensus in Congress, reasonable interlocutors in Washington are about as numerous as genuine progressives in the Democratic fold.
ANDREW LEVINE is the author most recently of THE AMERICAN IDEOLOGY (Routledge) and POLITICAL KEY WORDS (Blackwell) as well as of many other books and articles in political philosophy. His most recent book is In Bad Faith: What’s Wrong With the Opium of the People. He was a Professor (philosophy) at the University of Wisconsin-Madison and a Research Professor (philosophy) at the University of Maryland-College Park. He is a contributor to Hopeless: Barack Obama and the Politics of Illusion (AK Press).
I could have written this myself if I made a living at it. It is not exactly “news,” any more than the nose on one’s face is news.
I breathlessly await the howls of indignation from the (apparently nose-blind ) neocentrists here.
NeoCantrists.
Can’t smell the plain odor of bullshit wafting through the mass media.
Political cant masquerading as truth.
Pitiful.
AG
August 17th: Ted Bundy is guilty of something. Nobody other than him knows exactly what, not yet. The evidence is all circumstantial. The only reason to think that he committed a crime is that the cops suspect him. But, as everybody knows or ought to know, cops are inveterate liars. Moreover, if history is a guide, they are just as likely to be wrong as to be right, even when they aren’t deliberately telling lies.
If only there was some mechanism by which to determine the truth. A legal mechanism, perhaps, some kind of investi–instevig–Oh, I don’t know! Some crazy thing that we as a society use to determine the truth or falsity when faced with suspicions of criminal behavior!
Of course, that mechanism would have to be 100% perfect, just like everything else in our lives, or it’d be 100% useless. So that’s not likely!
Also, this is a massive lie: the only reason to think that there was Russian meddling is that “the intelligence community” says there was.
There are plenty of other reasons, as any fair-minded–even skeptical–person would know. Unless that person believes that the ‘intelligence community’ is controlling all the information available in the world, probably via the use of fluoride in the drinking water.
A typical, one-note response to a well thought out and well organized article.
Show me proof of the equivalent criminal tools used in the whole collusion case…not anonymous whispers, the real thing…and I’ll Bundy-up Trump in a NY minute.
Until then?
This shit is just hot air and hustle from a group that was unexpectedly beaten because of their own decades-long and throughly proven criminality. Sure, Trump is at the very least a distasteful son-of-a-bitch to be leading the world’s strongest military power, but after 6+ months of hot air from his opponents, I repeat:
Thank you and good night…
AG
It’s not well thought out, Arthur, though I’ll agree that it’s well organized.
Leaving aside for a paragraph any information from the intelligence community, you think that there is zero cause to investigate Russian meddling/Trump campaign collusion despite massive amounts of circumstantial evidence that it in fact happened.
You don’t think that any illicit ties between the Russian state and the Trump campaign/administration needs to be investigated despite things that the IC didn’t tell us: Trump’s long-term shady business connections to Russian oligarchs, shady meetings about getting opposition research from the Russian gov’t, Trump’s family/adviser trying to establish a backchannel from INSIDE THE RUSSIAN EMBASSY, Trump wildly inappropriately sharing classified intelligence information with Russians, Trump advisors being in the pay of Russia, Trump administration acting decisively to further Russian foreign policy goals … despite all of that and about 100 things that slipped my mind, you don’t think we even need to look into it!
Why do you dismiss all that? Because the intelligence community claims that the Russians interfered in our election. They are liars. (So are cops.) I don’t trust them. (I don’t trust cops.) But that doesn’t mean that this is the Cretan paradox: ‘Everything the IC says is necessarily a lie.’ Sometimes–often–they tell the truth, too. And it’s up to us to look at all the tremendous amount of other information to which we have access.
You think that the Deep State (which I always read as ‘a Shadowy and Amorphous Conspiracy I Cannot Identify But Which I Nevertheless Blame For Anything I Choose’) first acted, though Comey, the fake emails, etc., to ensure Trump’s election. And then all of ’em got together in a back room to gin up this crazy false flag operation about Russian hacking meddling in our election, based I presume on the complete nothingburger of Manafort and Page and Flynn and Trump’s open, obvious ties to Russian oligarchs and mobsters, and based on the wild and terribly unfounded notion that Russia, of all nations, would possibly want to fuck around with us via hackers (because they’d never do that) and they all got on the same page because, I don’t know, Trump is so hard to manipulate for professional spies, they couldn’t just send a skanky blonde in with intelligence reports on flash cards to get him to do what they wanted, instead they agreed on a massive conspiracy to try to undermine the perfectly innocent and–God help us and protect us from this broken fucking system–duly elected president of the United States
That’s so much more likely, to you, than people in Trump campaign colluding with Russia that you see absolutely no genuine reason to investigate.
I wouldn’t bother responding to this stuff except I appear to be one of the few people who here actually likes your comments. But it’s just looking like you’re caught in a sophomoric loop of unfalsifiable and embarrassing bullshit at the moment, and it pains me.
You write:
After sux months of hullabaloo and foofaraw, I have seen no hard evidence that anything provably criminal happened, only hearsay or unsubstantiated, undocumented evidence.
Circumstantial?
Here are the “circumstances.”
People from different countries met. It is claimed that some of them offered information on a competitor of the other other group.
So what?
One of the countries was Russia.
Are we at war with Russia?
Not so far, although the Deep Stae in which you do not believe constantly acts as if we are or should be.
Are there people from other countries that met with representatives of both political parties during the campaign?
Bet on it.
Was one of those countries Israel?
Bet on that as well.
How about say…Saudi Arabia? A sure bet.
Did Israel or Saudi Arabia…let alone the NATO countries and many others as well…have something to gain from swaying the election towards HRC? By any means possible, any means that they thought they might be able to succeed without getting caught? C’mon.
Were the Russian representatives accused of meeting with Trump’s people criminals? Gangsters? Spies? I guess that depends on your definitions of those terms. Is Hillary Clinton as “asset” of the U.S. State Department and by extension the CIA? Of course she is. Does that mean that she cannot meet with any foreign powers without being accused of criminally trying to influence those powers? That goes form John Kerry, any ambassadors or other functionaries of the State Department or “businesspeople” whose business is in any way international.
If competing politicians meets with U.S. criminals…and I include the Kochs in that group, along with God knows how many other hustlers and lobbyists crawling around Washington DC like maggots on a rapidly disintegrating corpse…inside the U.S., is that OK? Because they have American citizenship and heavy-duty pull in DC? Please!!!
If you do not believe that only a central control system could persuade/trick 95+% of the mass media to go into lockstep belief mode about the many and various (so far totally unproven) accusations being leveled at the Trump campaign while simultaneously playing down the rotten actions of the DNC in “swaying” the primaries towards HRC and away from Bernie Sanders (Let alone whatever “foreign agents” or simple workaday crooks were in places of importance in that system.), then you have swallowed the Deep State media line along with its hook and sinker.
Sorry, but there it is.
Ally yourself with one side of a two-sided gang war if you must. You’ll certainly have plenty of company.
Me?
I’ll stay outside the whole hustle and post my observations.
Take ’em or leave ’em, Steggies.
All’s I can do is post ’em.
Later…
AG
Notice that they always call to Russian billionaires as “oligarchs” and claim they have “close ties” to Putin (even if the evidence is based only an associate having some vague relationship with some Russian politician or state agency).
I do agree that these Russian billionaires didn’t come by their wealth without massive favors from one or more members of the Kremlin (most prominently during the Yeltsin years when western finance and economic folks were major advisors on the transition of the USSR state to “free market capitalism) and that most (all?) took advantage of a legal system that didn’t have the controls in place that were developed in western countries over a hundred or more years. And many likely also engaged in all other sorts of businesses that were once the province of organized crime — but most of that has been corporatized in the west.
However, most western billionaires have enjoyed similar favors. And most have demonstrable ties to US administrations and Congress and figure prominently in the funding of political candidates and parties. Goldman Sachs has been fined for illegal activities — that makes them and their CEO Blankfein a criminal organization. One that Hillary Clinton shared her private public policy positions with in a private — and got a fat kickback for doing so. (And GS is hardly alone.) The Kochs and others work the other side of the aisle. (Before going on his own — with Safra money — Bill Browder (US expat/UK citizen)was a Boston Consulting Group employee working in Eastern Europe.) Same with big time lawyers and lobbyists. The Podesta bros were in Russia as much if not more so than Manafort. Hunter Biden has a sweet deal with am anti-Russia Ukrainian billionaire/oligarch.
The level of corruption and dirty dealing has become so high that to go after one would risk exposing a lot more. That’s my hope for the outcome of going after Trump.
So it is equally appropriate to say that Blankfein is a criminal oligarch with close ties to Hillary Clinton. And he surely tried to meddle with the election, since expressing a preference is considered “meddling” by the media.
Not exactly. What you describe is totally domestic and there are no operational constraints on US oligarchs interfering in US elections other than donating more than the limitations to a candidate, PACs, and a state and national party. And don’t get caught fixing ballots or the counting machines. Lobbying/funding voter suppression legislation and a bazillion dollars spent on adverts (propaganda) to advance or destroy a policy position associated with any candidate and/or party are A-okay.
It’s also okay with Americans and the USG for US oligarchs with well documented close ties to any US politician, party, and/or administration or USG officials to interfere in foreign elections, coups, etc. Americans also get all bent out of shape when such real US based election/government meddling in a foreign country is detected by the people and/or country of that foreign country and is denounced by either and leads either to dislike and mistrust the US.
One good reason not to nationalize voting systems and and adopt a popular vote winner system is that the current structure severely restricts what any foreign country and/or “oligarch” can accomplish. There’s never a single ground zero in US elections and identifying all of them in one election isn’t robust enough to use in the next election. Clinton did work what her team viewed as the ground zeroes in the 2012 election: FL and NC. Her team must also have recognized problems in rural PA — but they chose to make up for any rural losses in the suburbs gaining with fiscally conservative/socially liberal Republicans. Guess they overlooked that the potential pool of GOP voters is small compared to the rural voters they were losing.
Attn. The Voice:
Perhaps AG is willing to forward yr email to me to establish contact.
Thx!
I don’t believeI have it, Oui.
Not in my contacts file…
AG
I’ll drop you a line too AG .. appreciated.
You have mine. I’ll contact you again.
If Chelsea Clinton tried to establish a backchannel from INSIDE THE ISRAELI OR SAUDI EMBASSY to avoid official channels and monitoring, that alone would have you (and me) screaming about the need for an investigation. If she’d also met with shady Israelis or Saudis for the overt purpose of obtaining oppo research gathered by those governments on Trump? I can’t even imagine your outrage at this evidence of Deep State interference.
You have a very, very high opinion of the competence of the Deep State.
And I do ally myself with one side of a two-sided gang war. I’m not quite so craven as to pretend that neutrality is possible.
You write:
Neither am I “craven,” Steggies. Nor am I “neutral.”
I am actively hostile…in a peaceful, non-violent way…to both gangs.
What you are doing is accepting the two-dimensional rubric handed to you by the united mass media.
Sorry about the bad code. On my unaccustomed laptop tonight.
Should have been:
No.
There are many more possibilities than that.
AG
Who gets to define “shady?” How many degrees of separation are required before “shady” equals the government of the “shady” character?
In 2016 Democrats did hire an oppo firm that hired a fmr British spy to dig up dirt on Trump in Russia (and may have paid Russian officials and fmr officials to talk). That seems to me to be going further than the Trumpkin did. And as none of what was dug up was specifically used in the Clinton campaign (more likely because it was crap than the campaign had any ethical standards), I wouldn’t be calling for an investigation of this matter even if she’d won.
The lesson for Trumpkin is use middlemen — the more degrees of separation the better and avoid any money flowing into or out of the campaign, the personal coffers of the candidate and/or his/her family, or any close associate to get the job done.
Shall we talk about Hunter Biden’s deal with the anti-Russian Ukrainian oligarch? His father was a heartbeat away from the WH — much higher than the father of the person that Russian lawyer represents and who met with Trumpkin. While we may never know if he got anything from the participants in that meeting, we do know that, like the Clinton campaign, nothing obtained was used.
This is the same rhetorical tack that Trump surrogates are doing. “Democrats did it first and did it worse!!”
Trump surrogate. Quite the spectacle from The Last Honest Liberal.
As the GOP House jerks were in the process of impeaching the President, I appreciated Larry Flynt’s effort to uncover that the new House leader, Livingston, was also engaged in an extramarital affair. You didn’t applaud the exposure of this equivalence? You’d be lying if you said no to that question. (It doesn’t say anything good about married people that engage in affairs, but it’s not illegal and it’s private and personal. As long as such cheats aren’t trying to destroy another person for the same behavior.)
It was only GOP partisan jerks that couldn’t deal with that obvious equivalence and the hypocrisy.
When the shoe is on the other foot, it’s discouraging to see that the percentage of Democratic partisan jerks doesn’t seem to be much less than it is among GOP partisan jerks. Partisan Republicans that shouted as me back in the late 1990s only further revealed their true colors. Their ethical and cognitive shortcomings. I have some empathy for the latter but not the former.
Marie3, the cases you’re bringing up here are not equivalent at all.
The actions multiple Trump associates have now publicly conceded to have engaged in are at a much higher level as the Steele dossier and the Hunter Biden business. The last isn’t even campaign-related, so bringing Biden in is an attempt to stray from the 2016 campaign here.
Hillary Clinton and the DNC did nothing close to this:
“On June 3, 2016 at 10:36 AM, Rob Goldstone wrote:
…The Crown prosecutor of Russia met with his father Aras this morning and in their meeting offered to provide the Trump campaign with some official documents and information that would incriminate Hillary and her dealings with Russia and would be very useful to your father.
This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government’s support for Mr. Trump…
On June 3, 2016 at 10:53 AM, Donald Trump Jr. wrote:
…Seems we have some time and if it’s what you say I love it especially later in the summer.
…
From: Donald Trump Jr.
Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2016 12:03PM
To: Jared Kushner; Paul Manafort
Subject: FW: Russia – Clinton – private and confidential
Meeting got moved to 4 tomorrow at my offices.
Best,
Don”
She doesn’t care.
I care in the exact same way that Eleanor Roosevelt cared to stand up to the Dies (D-TX)Committee in 1939 and HUAC in 1947. She could see through BS and looniness in Democrats as well as Republicans and had to moxie to speak out against it and endure the criticism from those stuck in the BS box.
It’s offensive to read a modern “progressive” compare herself with Eleanor Roosevelt while she concentrates her time on driving angry division and disseminating factually sketchy propaganda within the progressive movement. Eleanor was not down with those tactics at all.
Eleanor didn’t have the highest opinion of John F. Kennedy; he was no Henry Wallace or Adlai Stevenson, that was for sure. Nonetheless, by Election Day 1960 she had offered her public support for Kennedy’s election. Roosevelt also avoided making comments throughout the campaign about how horrible Kennedy, his campaign and the Democratic Party were, even though the Kennedy campaign planks and the 1960 Party platform was far inferior to their 2016 equivalents.
This continual “both sides do it” false equivalency is a constant right wing rhetorical trick these days. Marie3 wishes to have us avoid confronting this fact, all while her rhetoric fails to distinguish her from Kellyanne Conway and the rest of the Bullshit Mountain crew.
Marie3 has taken leave of any attempt to truly do battle with today’s radical right wing movement. She doesn’t care how much damage they are doing as long as there’s another establishment Democrat to hate. At least Arthur Gilroy has been open for a long time about his motivation for taking nonstop shit about the Democrats; he’s a Ron Paul supporter who wants his radical libertarian beliefs to swamp the New Deal and Great Society programs. It’s more difficult for us to determine what is behind Marie3’s hostility and bad faith hot takes.
It isn’t difficult at all.
Her narrative, and the narrative of those whom I like to call neoprogressives, is that Clinton lost the election because she is a neoliberalcon who colluded with the DNC to steal the 2016 primary from Bernie Sanders.
So whenever a different narrative is used to explain what happened in 2016, or what is happening now, it must be hand-waved away as simply a symptom of the original narrative. Hence the constant pivot to Clinton regardless of what the original discussion is on.
Because the only narrative that matters is that Clinton is a neoliberalcon who colluded with the DNC to steal the 2016 primary from Bernie Sanders.
Full stop. Forever.
She cares that her preferred narrative that “Clinton lost because she is a neoliberalcon who colluded with the DNC to steal the primary from Sanders” has been replaced with entirely different narratives altogether.
Once you see that, you can not only read between the lines of every single other post, but can parse out the exact electron-bonds holding every other post together, from the whole group of people who are trying to keep that narrative front and center.
It’s not that they don’t care. It’s that they care too much, you see.
Oh puleeze — that’s a narrative that you have concocted and are ascribing to me.
Clinton is a neoliberalcon and she did collude with the DNC to win the primary. That’s not a fantasy but facts supported by documents. That it happened to be Sanders that effectively challenged her was serendipitous — had it been MOM, the same means would have been used.
Clinton didn’t lose because she’s a neoliberalcon. Few voters are that clued in. Her rabid fans are probably equal in numbers to Trump’s rabid fans. Most of the remainder vote in accordance with how they always vote. With one sliver that swings.
There wasn’t one-tenth the angst over the 2004 election as there is over this one — and GWB was also a nincompoop and he had lied this country into a very costly war, mostly in dollars for the US but horrendous damage to the country and lives in Iraq. Compared to Kerry, Clinton added CO, NV, NM, and VA (thanks to Kaine and Pentagon spending) to the Democratic column. Trump added PA, MI, WI and ME-2 to the GOP column. And it’s in PA, MI, and WI where that sliver came into play and in this one area, Trump wasn’t ignorant as to their existence and how to work them.
You say I’ve concocted and ascribed the narrative to you… and then, in the very next two sentences, say that the narrative is true, and that you believe it.
Unless you are going to state that Sanders probably would have lost because Strongman Trump was going to win against Clinton or Sadners, then you’re implying in your preferred narrative (that you’ve already admitted is true and that you believe it) that the most important factor in the 2016 primary and election event was that…wait for it…
Hillary Clinton is a neoliberalcon who colluded with the DNC to steal the primary from Sanders.
Or: how had non-neoliberalcon Sanders rightfully won the 2016 primary, Strongman Trump would have lost the 2016 election.
There is literally no other reason to continually relitigate the 2016 primary if you think that Sanders would have lost to Strongman Trump…unless your primary objective is to shatter a fragile Democratic alliance because you believe that, somehow, the most super ultra mega progressives would come out of it holding the reins of power, bringing forth a Social Democracy us impures could only dream about.
No I didn’t. I specifically said:
Totally contrary to the primary point in your concoction. And I’ve never claimed that she lost because she’s a neoliberalcon. That you packed that allegation with the fact of DNC primary collusion is irrelevant. (DWS resigned over that documented fact and not over a suspicion based on multiple indications over the course of the primary. She had withstood those just fine.)
Some may claim that exposure of the collusion cost her the election. I doubt that. Although the margin in MI was so small that I wouldn’t discount it there. Still, it was PA that was decisive and the margin there was too large for that explanation.
Stop trying to blame those that have made a good faith effort in analyzing the 2016 election results for Clinton’s loss.
Still stumped on the swing sliver? Hint, Obama worked it in ’08.
What is this “good faith analytical effort” poppycock? Marie3 was calling the election for Clinton all the way to Election Day. Of course she was criticizing Clinton, her campaign, and the Democrats throughout; that’s what she does. But she wasn’t offering good faith analysis which had her predicting Clinton was going to lose.
The DNC primary collusion charge was massive bullshit. A few snotty emails were blown up into an issue which, through propagandistic techniques, was made to mean something to some people.
The.
DNC.
Didn’t.
Run.
Any.
Of.
The.
Primaries.
Or.
Caucuses.
Marie3’s utter indifference to the FBI’s unprecedented interference in the election is quite a departure from the community member who is white hot to reveal institutional corruption in the oversight of election campaigns.
You write:
There you have it, Marie.
But…don’t be discouraged. Jerkhood is the human midline. We all have to deal with it if we are going to get even a little bit done in an evolutionary sense
AG
Darn Arthur … quite a list!
librarylil
Heart of the Rockies
curtadams
MikeInOhio
The Voice In The Wilderness
karl pearson
Racer X
grog
Will Rogers Guthrie
Oui
Bet on it!
Thank you, Oui. And thanks for the vote of confidence from other pond swimmers. I have been avoiding the pond recently because of…because of pollution, I guess. I drop by and take a whiff a couple of times a day…on slow days. maybe the pollution is beginning to recede.
I think even Booman is beginning to realize the unbalance of his position in terms of the ongoing centrist effort to get rid of Trump as it now stands. As he points out in a couple of recent posts, the media are as much or even more distrusted than the politicians. People are beginning to wake up to the fact that most our “media” are merely a group of paid political hustlers. They write what they are paid to write, and if they disobey they lose their job and some other ex-journalism student takes their place.
So it goes.
Thanks again…
AG
Give us a break. You have not avoided this blog at all; you just tell us over and over that you do. Oui makes similar statements, but then posts multiple diaries every day. Stop with the persecution narratives, gentlemen.
I remember that! “And a Senator with pictures!”
So which one of the grand juries empaneled by Mueller are you serving on?
I hear there are a few of them.
Caitlin Johstone (she a good thinker and writer) – a very long read in The Big Fat Compendium Of Russiagate Debunkery
Her disclaimer (that I almost feel I should attach to all my comments on this issue because I’m quite weary of Martin making such an accusation against me – reminds me of the “Archie Bunkers” (not too bright and very ignorant) back almost fifty years agao that accused me of being an agent of Ho Chi Minh):
As promised in my previous diary – Ukraine-Russia Proxy War and the U.S. Election.
Ukrainian influence: DNC, CrowdStrike, Clinton, Chalupa sisters and its aftermath
○ Biden’s Ukrainian Oligarchs and Corruption
I have no clue who you actually are, whether you’re a paid troll, a Russian propagandist, whatever. I do know that you can’t put down the narrative of Marie3 the brave iconoclast. It’s tiresome.