A few months ago, we discussed the speech by the Mayor of New Orleans and the removal of Confederate monuments in that city. As a comment, I mentioned that if the Monuments in Richmond were ever removed, that would be the crack in the Wall for the apologists and the movement toward a realistic discussion of the “Lost Cause”
Well the cracks are beginning to form-
http://www.nbc12.com/story/36152055/mayor-stoney-tells-monument-avenue-commission-to-consider-remova
l-of-statues
The first real shift was after the tragedy in Charleston, SC; after which the governor and state legislature moved to remove the Confederate element of the state flag. An issue that had been stalemated for years. Hard headed looks at the Confederate history and legacy began.
The movement to remove Confederate symbols from cities began to accelerate. New Orleans and the speech by Mayor Landreiu gave the movement much needed credibility. Such forceful sentiments from a white mayor of a majority black city could not be argued.
Then Charlottesville, a rather liberal enclave in the red portion of Va. There is no legal argument. The City Council voted the Lee monument in during the 1920s. The City Council voted it out in 2015. The attack by Nazis and Klan members will do nothing to prevent it and accelerate the process in other cities.
For the majority of Americans, its not cool to fight for slavery or return of Nazis, and its not good to see their antics on the TV. The minority who want to play Brown Shirt or Laundry Sheet ghost just did their cause damage. It forces America to confront an uncomfortable past, and deal with it so they can go back to their oblivious lives. Just as the TV images of hoses and dogs set loose on civil rights protestors was the beginning of the end of Jim Crow. The torch light processions, shouting, screaming, and attacks is the beginning of the end for the white supremacists and Lost Cause apologists.
Plus its not economic for Southern States, who tout business friendly atmosphere and No Unions to overseas investors and NE manufactures, to be identified with over weight would be fascists and Klansmen. How would BMW feel about expanding their plant in Spartanburg, SC. Their parts suppliers right next door? Executives’ wives feel safe? Would Daimler Benz officials feel safe sending their kids to school in Vance, Ala if they have overt fascists running around the town and in the hallways.
No matter how much they sputter, there ain’t no money in being a Nazi. And the South knows it. And now, with the Confederacy now being identified with violent thugs in modern times, there ain’t no money in that as well.
Ridge
Man oh man, I sure do hope you are right! Still a long way to go, but what an opening for progress!
About 30 folks took down the statue remembering the “boys in gray” in my city. I don’t think it’s going back up.
Its happening and I use same sex marriage as a model in the comments below. Also hearing more about Woodrow Wilson, his putting the final nail in the coffin of Reconstruction and the expansion of Jim Crow. That is new as well. Also more usage of the “T” word .
The tide is turning.
The monuments removal is just the outward sign. National social values changing which are being reinforced by the obvious commercial implications.
R
>>How would BMW feel …? Would Daimler Benz officials feel safe …
If the alternative is unions they’ll stick with Nazis, just like their grandfathers did.
One other factor. 2015 was the 150th anniversary of the defeat of the Confederacy. There now are books coming out looking at the 150th anniversary of Reconstruction. Those books are looking at the propaganda campaign that went on from 1870, turned into a terrorist war in 1875, intimidated the US Congress in 1876 (“regaining Home Rule”), and was relaunched as a campaign after World War I (Birth of a Nation) and World War II (Dixiecrat Party) to ensure that black servicemen would not get the respect granted white servicemen. That history is beginning to come out for the first time as formal history because the propagandists in history departments are gone (another white supremacist complaint).
If Richmond delivers, that will be a huge chink out of the wall of denial. When the Southern mythology finally falls, it will then be up to the collborators in the urban suburbs to start dealing with their century-long mythology about what caused white flight.
When the Piedmont Crescent of the Carolinas turn, you will know that momentum is gathering. We are not there yet.
I understand that Ken Burns is going to do a series on Reconstruction. Just as his Civil War added to the momentum, that will as well even despite the pre-propaganda against Ken Burns.
The South Carolina legislature did not finally act until Bree Newsome climbed the flagpole and took down the CBF. Not even a mass murder could get a lot of GOP legislators to move fast or move at all. But it did get enough to get it retired for good. (Watch for attempts after Charlottesville to put it back up.)
You may remember the 60’s movie “In the Heat of the Night”. It portrayed the problem of the South trying to partake in the then burgeoning National and International economy while hamstrung with the chains of the past. Northern plants coming in to small town… with their own ideas about economic opportunity for blacks and poor white trash, upsetting the Old Order. Those plants only became feasible with the increased transportation (trucking on Interstates) as opposed to the old ways of river and railroad. That began the transformation with the attending tensions.
Jump 40-50 years ahead. Just as the Interstates and better roads made those places no longer so insular, think about the Internet and cable TV. Bobby no longer influenced just by parents, local teachers and preachers but also his online buddy in Canada, gaming pal in Calif., Instagram, Twitter, …The romance of the Lost Cause no longer has as great as appeal. And its happening quicker than I thought.
Think about same sex marriage. In the 90’s it had to be opposed. Campaigns, thousands of speeches, DMA. Now, no one under 60 gives a damn. No one under 30 sees nothing wrong with homosexuality. Civilization did not end. I live and work in very conservative areas and that is the prevailing attitude. This is a radical change in 20 yrs. And its the work of increased communications.
Same thing is happening with the Monuments and Old South nostalgia. There will be holdouts, but the passions will fade, the flags will become tattered, the lights will burn out and not replaced. The kids won’t care. I doubt anti-monument movement will seep down to the small county courthouses for another generation or two, but the larger cities/college/commercial areas? They will be gone in the next couple of yrs. The Triangle? Sure. The Triad? That’s a little surprising its so soon. Richmond? That’s going to take time.
But the cracks are forming. for the first time since the 1860’s the term “Treason” is being regularly used against the leaders of the Rebellion. And the objections are half hearted. Man, those sentiments used to be voiced in private. No more. That’s progress.
R
There were way too many 20-somethings and 30-somethings in that crowd at Charlottesville for me to think you’re correct at this point in time.
At best this will lead Neo-Nazi/Alt-Right/KKK/White Supremacists to taking their BS back under ground. But kill them? Wishful thinking. They are still they sole power brokers in way too many places and Donald Trump is still President of the US. They are on the verge of winning, not losing. And they know it.
It won’t seep down to small county courthouses because a lot of them were retired to a back corner when the county got a new shiny courthouse. Or like in Durham, it was just another piece of street furniture without much personal attachment. (Except for a dwindling UDC contingent.)
But the same communication reach – an millimeter deep and globally — is what brings new enthusiasts from the Pacific Northwest or the Bay Area trying to buck the local cultural tide.
Yes, moving much faster than I would have expected.
Tipping points are always the hardest to project. Some even happen without general public awareness or even acknowledgment after the fact. And precisely dating a tipping point is often not possible.
I recall in 2007 saying that there was no longer racial or sexual impediment to electing a POC or woman to the office of the Presidency. Didn’t know when that flipped other than after 2000; only that it was gone by 2007. Obama was smart not to highlight his status in his ’08 campaign. In the abstract, a “I am woman” campaign in ’16 would have been ill-advised.
Durham is part of the university industrial/cultural complex, so no surprise there. It will be a generation or more (if ever)before there is any action in Yancyville, NC or Chatham, Va.
R
Likely, there will be no need in a generation to remove monuments in small-county county seats. The issue is sustained by a national media network; always has been.
If he does, let’s hope it’s better than what’s shaping up with his 18.5-hr doc on Vietnam, judging by some of his ahistorical and dubious comments in the pre-game period.
Unwritten is something I was going to write for another site about the history of the monuments themselves.
I tweeted a couple – people may find it of interest.
We should not fool ourselves: most people oppose taking these monuments down.
By 62-27 most Americans support keeping the monuments.
http://maristpoll.marist.edu/wp-content/misc/usapolls/us170814_PBS/NPR_PBS%20NewsHour_Marist%20Poll_
National%20Nature%20of%20the%20Sample%20and%20Tables_August%2017,%202017.pdf#page=3
I find the wording on the monument question bad. The option to remove the monuments is “be removed because they are offensive to some people”. That language is more akin to what I would expect for a push poll.
I also find it interesting that Latinos (along with Tea Partiers, but thats not surprising) have the highest agreement rate with white nationalists and the alt-right, in the 10-15% range. Latinos are closer to Democrats than Republicans for BLM approval, so it would be interesting to see the country of origin for the Nazi ones (I’m guessing Spain or Argentina/Chile).
And 57% of Republicans strongly approve Trump in a poll this week??? Not approve (which is another 23%) but strongly approve.
Most people don’t register what the monuments are except in certain cities where there has been controversy already.
And it is not the public in general that counts; it is the public who are constituents of the people with the power to take down the monuments. Baltimore and Richmond are striking cases of how that sentiment falls.
Also, the abstract question degenerates into a framing of protection of conservative speech. That misrepresents that actual question, which is one of preserving institutions that support discrimination.
This issue exploded in Tampa.
People didn’t know about the intent of the monument – which was absolutely a symbol white racism.
When you start to research it you find many were erected from 1890 to 1915. This is about the same time as the introduction of segregation – though it also about the time many of the soldiers started to die.
But time after time there is always reference to racial superiority.
The speech at UNC was from Carr – who was a major figure in NC politics. The NC delegation actually nominated him for president at a Democratic Convention.
Interesting poll. For me it’s the first one that confirms that team Trump uses polls to guide his public moves. It’s bad news for Trump all the way around except for that one question about removing statues of Confederate leaders. And that’s exactly where Trump is doubling down on today.
However, polls are weakest is assessing public opinion on an issue that only in the past few days has gained national prominence and is hot. Most people have never given any thought to the question in the past. Thus, their default position is let’s not change anything. The demographics of this poll maximizes that response. Where it’s off the most is on age: 60% of respondents are 45 or older. That’s seven points higher than their national %. On self-identification absent party labels, “moderate” at 35% is the largest. That skew is most likely a function of limiting the poll to registered voters. But we know that national debates aren’t restricted to registered voters, tend to be driven by younger adults, and older adults registered to vote are more status quo minded than the total population.
So, at this moment on this question, an intuitive assessment of the direction by those not wearing blinders is likely superior to a mid-point in time poll. While the question wasn’t as fluid and fuzzy wrt the 2016 election, we did see that AG’s intuitive assessment beat those poring over the polls — and beat most by a wide margin. Recall when DC Democrats got on the wrong side of the Schiavo issue with lukewarm signaling that Jeb! and GWB had it right? I was stunned that they could be so blind — but intuition logic were guiding my read of the issue and the DC Dems were being guided by mid-point polling. When the issue cooled, the polls became accurate — 60% opposed to state interference.
I can’t state with any confidence where this narrow question of Confederate leaders’ statues will cool down to within the next few months. Keeping them will be less, possibly far less, than the results of this poll. Still, I’d project that at least a slight majority would favor keeping them. The longer term will be greatly influenced by the number of statues that are pulled down. The more that are toppled, the less support for keeping them.
This from The Guardian is interesting:
Thirty-two Confederate memorials have been dedicated in the past 17 years, according to a survey by the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC). That’s at least 135 years after the demise of the secessionist movement the monuments ostensibly celebrate.
The symbols include public schools, plaques and monuments, such as a stone in St Cloud, Florida, engraved in honor of Confederate soldiers and of Florida’s cattlemen and farmers “who risked their lives and fortunes to supply our troops fighting in defense of their families, state and nation”.
Iowa, a Union state, has three Confederate monuments, all dedicated after 2000.
…
These aren’t large monuments but nevertheless, they have been installed to retain the notion that treasonous traitors were honorable. Add “Treasonous Traitors that fought for the right to own slaves” for historical accuracy to these little monuments and they can stay.
Those focused on removing the statues of Confederate leaders are hitting the correct pressure point. However, any defensiveness about the statues of non-confederate leaders who were not so admirable risks ending of with the same old divide, albeit with fewer on the side of the stars and bars.
There is some movement to putting memorials or flag poles on private land when there is resistance to keeping them on public land.
Danville, Va, last seat of the Confederate govt. uses the mansion Davis fled to as a regional art museum. Had a big flag out front. City complexion has changed, textiles and tobacco dead, trying to attract educated professionals and converting old warehouses to lofts. Some success. Well those folks didn’t like paying for a museum with that symbol out front. Flag came down and a small plinth/flag pole moved to the corner of the grounds. Some objected. So they erected large (100 ft) flagpoles with huge Confederate flags on private land on roads coming into city. Something any visitor or would be investor/professional would see driving in.
IKEA built a plant out in the county, I’m sure the Swedes and company officials like driving past them. Or I wonder if they bypass D’ville and go to Lynchburg, Roanoke, Greensboro, Triangle to eat and shop?
R
Moving symbols that are no longer acceptable for public spaces to private lands owned by a couple of people don’t last all that long. If maintenance if required, they fall apart because the owner can’t afford it. The owner dies and it comes down as the family sells off the land.
How long did those “Freedom Schools” in the south last?
Some cross-tabs to ponder, because I am a poll junkie and I like to ponder such things.
“Do you agree with the ideas of the BLM” – not exact wording, but close: 50 yes 37 no.
76% of Dems say they agree with BLM. 47% say the statutes should not be removed.
So there may be some wording issues with these questions, but there are a good number of people who agree with BLM who are against taking down the monuments.
Or (and/or also plausible) they’ve given more thought to BLM over the past year and agree that cops are too trigger happy when confronting AA men. Whereas, they haven’t given much thought to statues of Confederate leaders and don’t instantly connect that with BLM. May not even have noticed that BLM was one of the many anti-white-nationalists at the Charlottesville demonstrations. Thus, the default setting of let’s leave it alone.
Ponder this:
Sample size one. White male. A criminal defense lawyer. Traces his ancestry to a member of the Union army. He does not mind Confederate monuments coming down around the country.
Republican or Democrat?
Would knowing where he was raised and where he currently lives be helpful to answer the question?
Marginally. Probably more important would be where he went to school.
There is no one in my class (or nearly no one) that would defend keeping the monuments. But then my class was a bunch of Ivy League liberals (and very heavily Jewish).
Being a criminal defense lawyer will make you a civil libertarian, but not necessarily a liberal.
Most defendants are guilty as hell, and representing them over the course of many years doesn’t necessarily breed sympathy.
Not an easy question to answer is it?
Running through the provided information plus one addition, this is how it stacked up for me:
white/male – age 45: leans right
crim def atty: leans left
union army ancestor: party of Lincoln family tradition
okay with statue removal: consistent with family roots
For me, where he was raised and where he lives would supply better clues than where he went to law school. For example, if both are the same and near where his family has lived for the past hundred-fifty odd years, the old stuff gets passed down with little to no change. Set the ancestor in Ohio and this person has also always been in Ohio, a Republican would seem more likely. If it’s Ohio and then Los Angeles and Los Angeles, I’d have to flip a coin. If it’s Ohio-Los Angles-Portland, I’d go with Democrat.
This is all just for fun because I don’t know his age (could be anywhere from 30 to 64) and only know where he lives now and from that am assuming that it’s near enough to his ancestors and where he grew up. It’s Northampton County, PA. That county is classified as a swing district, but his family roots predate the late 19th and early 20th century immigration and industrialization; so, I’d put him down as a reliable Republican voter. More comfortable with a Heinz and Specter than a Santorum, but Ricky would still have gotten his vote.
Either my fill-in-the-blank assumptions are wrong or something I don’t understand has happened to the mindset of some white people that objectively are educated and hold professional jobs because I wouldn’t expect the following:
That computes less for me than a 2nd cousin or 2nd cousin once removed of mine (who I’ve never met) that traveled the same path to the tea party. Educated professional, but his grandparents were early 20th century German immigrants and staunch Catholics, as he is. Doubt there’s ever been a Democrat in his family and they are racists and anti-Semites.
People who go to law school tend to be more likely to go against type – which is why where you went would be a better predictor.
In any event the quote is a classic litigator response defending his client. But it does capture why Trump hasn’t collapsed, and is indeed unlikely to collapse.
Trump is sui generis – and he just isn’t held accountable the way others would.
Maybe he’s a corporate criminal defense attorney. Then it would add up better.
This guy is formally a ‘Tea Party’ member/organizer; so, wouldn’t use him as a microcosm to gauge the reliability and resilience of Trump’s support. Identifiable support for the ‘Tea Party’ waned after its initial strong support (approx 30%) in 2010-2011. By October 2015 it was down to 17%. Without a leader or figure-head it would have continued to wane.
Their choice was Trump or Cruz. Trump won that contest because at a visceral level, Cruz is too “oily” and he has a whiny voice, neither of which would have served him in a general election. And like all groups once they’ve chosen their leader, they defend him/her.
Curious that Gallup hasn’t polled on the ‘Tea Party’ question since 2015. Probably not necessary as Trump has appropriated that faction, be it 17% or 30%.
What may be noteworthy about Trump’s interim job approval/disapproval polling compared with past Presidents is how static they’ve been. 40%:60% +-3.
GWB’s approval rating soared to 90% in 2001 and hit 25% in 2008. However, by November 2005 he was at 37%:60% +
– and we had to endure having him in office for another three plus years.
Marist poll indicates that my comments on the tea party aren’t as correct as I expected. Important for me to acknowledge that.
Tea Party supporters aren’t as supportive and are more critical of Trump than those that self-identify as Trump supporters. The responses for self-identified Republican is roughly the average of the first two groups.
Lots to digest in this poll. And don’t expect a single one of the gd Clinton supporters to acknowledge that they are wrong about AA support Sanders.
Here are the words written by the Editor in Chief of the Oxford Eagle, the daily newspaper of Oxford, MS, where the University of Mississippi is located.
“Confederate statues don’t tell the story of the Civil War, but rather how people wanted the war to be remembered. It didn’t matter that the glossy narrative of the Confederacy’s fight for liberty stood in stark contrast to the words of its leaders who decades earlier clung to the preservation of slavery and economic prosperity as the primary cause of secession. Monuments served not only to freeze that sentiment but to establish Southern white supremacy as a distinct cultural force destined to rise again.”
http://www.oxfordeagle.com/2017/08/16/removing-confederate-monuments-doesnt-erase-history-it-fact-ch
ecks-it/
I don’t believe these words would have been published in the Oxford Eagle in 1962 when James Meredith enrolled at the University of Mississippi. After Pres. Obama was re-elected in 2012, some 200 students protested, but there was little resemblance between that action and the 1962 riots.
http://savannahnow.com/news/2017-08-17/mayor-time-change-savannah-s-confederate-monument-talmadge-br
idge-name