Andrew Sullivan says that the Democrats should “give [Trump] his fucking wall” on the border with Mexico. He spills a lot of words to make his case but it all comes down to a few basic ideas. One is straight up fear that Trump will use inaction on the border to his advantage and batter the Democrats into a successful bid for reelection. Another is that only by giving Trump a win on his signature issue can the Democrats defuse the issue. Another is that Trump is owed the wall because he ran on building it and he won, just as Obama ran on expanding access to health care and won. Another is that giving him the wall will allow the Democrats to horsetrade for funding and policies that will actually deal with the humanitarian crisis at the border.
All of these ideas are dubious at best, but the worst one of all is this:
The point is that after this crisis, we have to return this debate to the calm and nitty-gritty area of legislative hearings and compromises, rather than the cable news and social media rhetorical screech of the recent past.
Mr. Sullivan needs to look at the Trump administration with fresh eyes. They are not bashing immigrants because it’s a legitimate issue. They are leading a white nationalist movement, and the objective facts on the border are wholly irrelevant to them. They will attack the Democrats and accuse them of wanting open borders, of wanting non-citizens to vote, of non-existent in-person voter fraud, of coddling Mexican and Central American gangs because they don’t care about crime, or disrespecting Christianity, of only caring about non-whites, of taking white people’s money and wasting it on the urban poor. They will do these things whether or not the Democrats give Trump his fucking wall. There will be no return to calm. There will be no science and evidence-based legislative hearings. The rhetorical screech from cable news and social media and hate radio will not abate.
What Sullivan also fails to adequately explain is how the wall would help the humanitarian crisis. Thankfully, he doesn’t argue that it would be an effective way of stemming border crossings or that it could be completed at all, let alone at a reasonable cost. Instead, he simply argues that the Democrats could get a DACA fix and “massive new funding for detention facilities, humane family-friendly housing, and, above all, much more money for the immigration legal system, now completely overwhelmed by asylum cases.” I’m tempted to mock the “family-friendly housing” we’d get through massive spending on detention facilities, but I’d rather focus on the idea that the Democrats should willingly participate in the creation of a huge expansion of detention facilities whether they’re family-friendly or not.
Is this really where we are? We must do this or worsen a humanitarian crisis?
It seems to me that a better approach is to begin thinking seriously about what if anything the United States can do to help Mexico and Central American countries stop their societal disintegration. In the past few months, over one hundred and twenty Mexican politicians have been murdered, including eighteen mayoral candidates. Right now, depending on who you ask, either El Salvador or Honduras has the highest murder rate in the world. Try to imagine what the reaction would be if this was happening in this country.
As a strictly political matter, policies that might actually have a beneficial humanitarian effect are not necessarily going to be popular or easy to implement, but it’d be nice to identify those policies anyway so they can serve as the starting point for Democrats the next time that they actually have enough power to do something other than serve as the opposition.
I don’t think giving Trump a wall in exchange for a vastly expanded but more humane set of detention camps is going to have the positive impact that Sullivan says it will. It’s not going to defuse the issue, and in some tangible ways will actually bolster and entrench a system of mass incarceration. It won’t save money, as far as I can tell, especially with the wasted cash on a boondoggle barrier. It won’t do a thing to address the root causes driving people to seek asylum in our country or to risk illegal entry. And it’s not going to change how Trump and his minions treat the issue or how they saturate our airwaves with hate or how they campaign against the Democrats.
It’s true that Trump campaigned on the wall and won. He also campaigned on the opioid crisis and said he’d do something about it. Better to give him the money to address that issue because reducing our citizenry’s dependency and spending on cheap Mexican heroin will do more to undercut the murderous gangs there than building a stupid fucking wall.
I’m not at all inclined to give Trump and the GOP a wall or anything else for that matter. Trump is too busy gaslighting the government, Democrats, and the country for anyone to give serious consideration to anything unless it’s the immediate impeachment and/or removal of DT from office. I can no longer deal with that man.
The unstated point the Andrew Sullivan doesn’t make out loud is that he is a long standing promoter of racist pseudoscience and white supremacists and very likely doesn’t give a flying fuck about the various humanitarian crises experienced by brown folk exacerbated by the Trump administration.
“Sure, let Trump build that wall. Doesn’t affect me! Then we can go back to talking about cutting welfare for those shiftless… urban poor.”
Looks like Loomis at LGM had about the same response I did to Sullivan’s drivel.
Indeed.
It connects to cardinal rules….
1) Never, EVER, feed a troll. They thrive on attention, even negative, and if you give them what they want, they will ALWAYS come back.
But more importantly,
2) Never, EVER, pay a blackmailer. No matter how much you beg and plead, they will NEVER give up their meal ticket, and they will ALWAYS come back.
Trump is exceedingly familiar with both these rules. Number 1 because he is the consummate troll, right now his whole administration is based on trolling democrats. But it is number 2 that he is a pro at. First of all because his whole business model is predicated on blackmail and extortion against his contractors. But mainly he himself is being blackmailed/extorted, and he knows he (and his family) will NEVER be able to pay them off, and they will NEVER go away.
Everything with him is projection. What he suffers, he wants to project on everyone.
The whole world, particularly our allies, are learning this about right now. You can’t give him what he wants, because he will take it, and then demand more.
The democrats seem to have learned it as well, neither immigration bill will get a single democratic vote…not one. Pelosi knows her job.
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Especially fascist blackmailers. They revel in your tears as you cry about their hypocrisy and pocketing demands and compromises they made two minutes ago, and pretend no such agreement was ever made or agreed to; or it was, who knows, can we really know what we agreed upon? And it works. Nowhere does Sullivan mention that Schumer already agreed to his fucking wall in exchange for releasing DACA hostages only to be rebuffed by the Sessions/Miller/Kelly axis. Did that agreement ever happen? Who knows — Sullivan certainly doesn’t acknowledge its reality and chooses to bash Schumer instead.
Absolutely right. Never forget that Mr Trump & his minions lie, cheat, and renege on everything, even when they don’t have to.
Don’t bother negotiating with this sort. Anyone who suggests such a thing needs some lessons in psychopath psychology.
. . . 2nd Runner-Up “prize”! Earned with shit not so different from that you rebut here.
But this isn’t quite right (actually, that’s my kindler, gentler way of putting “this is wrong”):
No, he campaigned on building “the wall” that Mexico would pay for (always never-gonna-happen preposterous), a promise he’s broken by now insisting American taxpayers pay for it. This is a critical distinction. Not gonna go read Sully to see if he neglected it, but the surprise would be if he didn’t.
Sullivan never mentions “Mexico” or “pay” in the entire article.
Gosh, who coulda predicted Sully would render his entire “argument” a lie by omitting such a critical element? (Oh, wait, I think I did.)
They will do these things whether or not the Democrats give Trump his fucking wall.
Well said. Why won’t Sullivan just go away?
I stopped reading at Andrew Sullivan Is Wrong. How is that news?
this. in other breaking news, the sun will come up tomorrow.
Even Republicans don’t want the wall and look at this BS
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/trump-holds-permanent-separation-event-to-change-narrative
After a week of scrutiny over the Trump administration’s policy of family separation, a practice that was altered by executive order, President Donald Trump tried to change the narrative Friday by holding an event with the family members of people killed by undocumented immigrants.
The “permanent separation” event was a series of tragic stories from the left-behind relatives, telling the tales of how their loved ones were killed, and lavishing praise on Trump and Vice President Mike Pence.
Forgot to add He autographed the pics of the dead people
Not The Onion…..
When I saw that, my reaction was visceral — in a really bad way!
This idiot thought that adding his signature to a picture of a dead person he does not give a flying fuck about was a good idea — only two words come to mind – no mas.
What the f is Sullivan smoking? When your opponent is flailing and drowning, don’t throw him a lifeline. Not when it’s an evil jackass like Donald Trump. Throw him a fucking anvil!
Sullivan’s suggestion would be political malpractice. Great way to motivate Latinos. Great way to rally the base. Just surrender. Perhaps we should offer up an Obamacare repeal while we’re at it.
Why do so many supposed-allies of the Democratic party (and many Democrats themselves) think like this? We ought to be calling Trump out constantly and to anyone who will listen for crimes against humanity. We should also be calling him a traitor every chance we get for aligning with the Russians. We ought to be calling him a crook and corrupt for a whole bevy of things, current and historical.
We need messages that people understand easily. That six year olds understand easily. That fit on a Goddamned bumper sticker.
I get so worked up around this sort of thing. Why are Democrats so stupid and inept when it comes to messaging? The Republicans eat our lunch. The mass of citizens agree with us on most issues and yet one would never know it from the way they vote. They use fear to divide us against each other and we never even try to call them out for turning poor and powerless people against one another.
These are messages that would resonate in the heartland. Democrats just make everything too subtle and nuanced. We should be screaming about corporate overlords, billionaires gaming our system, and on and on.
Our party once knew how to do this. It wasn’t that long ago. Less than fifty years. We let Republicans get the upper hand on all sorts of issues, including racial division. We should have been calling them out for their racism from the day Patrick Buchanan rolled out the Southern Strategy. We were afraid of alienating part of our base. We should have helped them to get that all disenfranchised folks are on the same team. We were fools for supporting affirmative action by race. We should have insisted it be by class. Give a leg up to those whose parents didn’t go to college, to those whose families were working class or impoverished. We should have been rigorously colorblind while standing up for everyone who needs help.
We should also use immigration to drive a huge wedge right down the middle of the Republican party. Ok, give them the chance to really shut down illegal immigration by prosecuting those who employ illegals. Write the legislation and then dare Republicans not to support it.
What’s it going to take for Democrats to learn to strategize?
. . . presumes Sully is Trump’s opponent.
. . . presumes Sully’s a supposed ally of the Democratic party. Etc.
Yes, times ten – any person who appears on tv or radio needs to always refer to the president as “the traitor Donald Trump.”
Is there a Republican created atrocity that Sully hasn’t declared the solution to is for Democrats/liberals/Victims of said atrocity to just capitulate/shut up/stop whining and take it?
Though it is not surprising that that racist tory shut-in…er, I mean conservative intellectual….also wants to see that new Confederate monument built.
Eff Sullivan. What a load of Hooey.
As someone above noted, Trump ran on building a Wall that Mexico paid for. I seem to recall Vicente Fox in a YouTube literally telling Trump to go get “F*cked,” as Mexico was certainly NOT paying for any such Wall.
So maybe Sully oughta go peddle his sheer utter horse shit to Mexico, IF he’s so damned interested in seeing that wall built. Because it’s Mexico who’s supposed to pay for the damn thing, not you and me, the US taxpayer.
On top of that, I just love how Sullivan whines about how Obama ran on expanding access to health care and won. Like, seriously? How fucking hard did Republicans fight tooth and nail to defeat ACA before it came into being, and then how many times did Republicans try to repeal it? And then there was the big brawl when Trump was elected, and Republicans and Trump had to eat crow bc their Nazi White Supremacist base suddenly figured out that dreaded horrid terrible awful blackity black black Obamacare was actually ACA, and they LIKED it and NEEDED it.
Whyever should Democrats “give” Trump anything unless it directly inures to the benefit of US citizens, our environment, etc?? Even the border states do NOT want the damn Wall bc it makes no sense, and it’ll cause way more problems that it’ll solve. Plus we NEED infrastructure, not so damn useless nonsense wall.
Sullivan is a useless waste of oxygen and carbon life form. Go away.
You’re absolutely right about the Republicans obstructing every step of the way on the ACA and trying to undermine it to this day. Particularly Trump. If we were going to offer him some wall money, let it be in return for a fix of problems with the ACA including a public option. Write the legislation and present it.
Of course they’d never go for it. But let the people see that we were both willing to compromise and also that we were fighting to get them better, cheaper and more comprehensive access to healthcare. This is what I mean by learning to play the messaging game.
I couldn’t disagree more with that strategy. The ACA doesn’t need any “fix” that the Republicans will be willing to offer. Anything they’ll commit to will make it worse.
And the wall is a childish boondoggle with the sole purpose of endorsing white supremacy. It wasn’t a serious idea when Trump ran for office and it isn’t a serious idea now. “The Wall” as an actual physical structure will never exist and that’s not what it’s for.
Sully has always been a closet racist and it is in these kinds of politically stupid remarks that he betrays this. He should know that on this subject above all neither Trump nor the current GOP Congress has any intention of being rational much less humanitarian.
The focus should not be on the wall but on a big push to fund NGOs in the three countries working on conflict resolution, improved livelihoods, and climate change adaptation. Also direct foreign assistance to support anti-corruption and good governance.
Finally, we need to work on reducing drug demand and preventing these countries from getting guns.
All the other measures are ultimately a waste of time.
Not getting the use of the term `closet’ in this sense. He’s not hiding a thing.
I note that trump says at every rally that ‘Hillary has committed many crimes”. And I wonder why she doesn’t sue his ass in open court. Can’t people sue this jackass for slander? Serious question. I don’t understand this.
Rarely recognized, even here is the larger issue of climate change. Central America is suffering through droughts that have ravaged many of their ancestral farms creating ‘dry corridors’.
The people share the same climate destruction as many areas in Syria where we also saw the initial stages of climate migration, first within their border and then out of desperation beyond.
Both areas share a common threat. Violence. Both areas have historically been prone to violence and to poverty but with climate change added into the mix the solutions are evaporating.
Climate migration is not going away, it will only get worse for these peoples. Since Trump has no desire to read a book or listen to scientists he once again is the worst possible President for these times.
I thought we didn’t negotiate with terrorists.
When has this bitch Andrew Sullivan ever, ever, EVER been credible on anything we care about? I mean, fuck him. Fuck him.
I’m still livid that Colbert invited him on his show.
He’s a right-wing nutjob who thinks that his sexual preferences somehow are cover.
A gay Phyllis Schlafly.
Fuck him.
Rule # 1. Never trust anybody who calls people with common sense `fifth columnists’
Rule #2. Never trust anyone who claims that one race is inherently inferior.
Rule #3. Never give into bullies by letting them have their way. It doesn’t work. Any idiot with half a brain knows that. And now, even the Democratic Party seems to have learned that.
Rule #4. Don’t read anything Sullivan writes. Saves a lot of wasted brain cells/cycles that can be better used drinking.
Rule #5. If you’ve forgotten Rule #4, don’t tell me about your misadventures reading the crap he writes.
Here it is:
Immigrants who are drawn to the United States predominantly for economic reasons would thus be well deterred. Immigrants who are motivated to come to the United States out of genuine fear for their safety, and to apply for asylum (as is their right), will still come.
….But the President and the Republican Party don’t want to combat the demand side and don’t want a truly effective policy because their supporters appreciate the ability to exploit undocumented workers. Indeed, many of them want to beat up the poor, especially undocumented immigrants.
Andrew Sullivan is a conservative columnist famous for promoting the racist “Bell Curve” theory of intelligence. So I don’t think Democrats need to take any advice on immigration from him.
Trump is literally taking hostages, and money for the wall is his ransom demand. If Democrats pay it, he will take more hostages. Anyone who believes it will “end the border crisis” is delusional. The only thing that will end the crisis is for Trump to feel pain, personally.
Money for the wall is part of his ransom demand, he is also demanding drastic reduction of legal immigration and of visa issuance.
Greedy much?
“he won…”
Apparently a minor point amidst all the other excellent ones raised here, but I would note that as a prez who won the electoral college but lost the popular vote by the largest margin in US history, Der Trumper cannot speak of a “mandate”. The nation used to understand this feature of our failed constitution, but since its failure in the 21st Century exclusively benefits “conservatives” and Repubs, we treat (Repub) popular vote losers exactly the same a Dem popular vote winners.
The time for bringing this rhetoric to bear was when the nation was reeling in disgust at the coronation of Der Trumper in Jan 2017, but of course Dems quailed from simply saying the citizens had rejected candidate Trumper’s idiotic proposals and he had no mandate for any of them, least of all his braindead “wall”.
Thus the white nationalist (and fascist) Trumper has been allowed to be normalized, as though he were a democratically legitimate prez–which he most certainly is not. Another missed opportunity, which has become catastrophic.
The wall is not something that should never be allowed to happen. In fact all of the nonsense since Trump first descended the escalator is just noise. Anyone who suggests such a juvenile thought as building a wall is grossly unqualified to hold public office, let alone be resident of the US.
When in history has a wall ever been a good idea? What are we in 4000BC building a wall that we need to hold back the Mongol hordes? The Berlin wall was such a great success wasn’t it. The only great thing about the Berlin wall was the day it came down and God forbid if a wall ever gets built here, it will be a point of tremendous controversy and contention. The only great thing about such a wall would be the day that it is torn down.
We don’e even have to mention the ridiculous idea that Mexico was going to pay for the wall or any of the thousands of lies and atrocities that have emanated from the Trump team since then.
Exactly. If indeed the wall or any portion of it is ever actually built, it will be covered with graffiti against the builders just as the Berlin wall was.
Efforts to sabotage and destroy portions will be ongoing. The first effort of a new Democratic president would be to order the demolition of said wall as being a national disgrace. One would hope…
Well, there is a wall. It has been there for some fifty years. Trump was never going to change that. In practice, the “wall” consists of masses of border agents gathered at major urban crossings. This has been the case for now, 25 years?
“Andrew Sullivan is wrong”
There, fixed the headline for you.
Makes it much more all purpose since inevitably it is the correct response to whatever rancid bilge Andrew ‘the decadent left in their coastal enclaves’ Sullivan is spouting at the moment.
Sullivan made sense in an older time when aggregators ruled the internet. That was his purpose and he did a pretty good job at it. But times have changed and I haven’t thought about him seriously in a decade.