Look. Here’s two articles that explain that the president was forced to pretend not to be nakedly doing Russia’s bidding and that he was mystified by all the fuss. The man is impossibly stupid, but he’s not that stupid. He’s the one who blew off his own staff and insisted on a summit with Putin. He’s the one who insisted on a private one-on-one meeting with Putin. He’s the one who, in the midst of the hottest part of the backlash, ordered John Bolton to invite Putin to visit the United States.
He’s doing what he feels he must and just handling the fallout as best he can.
Respectfully, I don’t understand how these move the needle.
It’s the same thing I and others have been saying all along: he thinks he’s doing great work; he thinks Putin’s terrific; he thinks this will all be justified as a brilliant move once the nation and the world catches up with his brilliance…and, especially, he thinks he’s enacting his supporters’ wishes, sticking it to the uppity European deadbeats and mending fences with the “real” leaders.
So, of course (as I and others wrote here and elsewhere) he’s absolutely stunned that anyone’s objecting. He left the Helsinki podium with a spring in his step, only to have his “mood darken” on AF1 when he realized something was wrong.
The fact that he concealed it all from his staff (nobody else in the meeting, etc.) doesn’t mean anything — it certainly doesn’t mean he’s aware that he’s got to conceal something. For all we know it was Putin’s idea: let’s be alone “so we can really talk” (with some nods to the dangers of “Fake News”).
And, again, Trump hates the Mueller probe and the FBI and all of it. All Putin has to do, to establish his bona fides, is agree with him that it’s all nonsense. Yes, Trump really is stupid enough to believe that this means Putin’s government and mob are innocent of any charges with regard to the election.
This kind of stupidity isn’t that unusual or impossible. Remember in ’72 when James Reston (of The New York Times) decided to get to the bottom of the Watergate story by taking Kissinger out to dinner and pressing him about it — Kissinger assured Reston that there was nothing to the story, and that was that.
. . . well presented, though personally I find booman’s alternative more persuasive.
That said, it hardly seems to me to matter which is correct (or more correct), as the consequential result is the same either way: We have a Constitutional crisis and existential threat in the form of a criminal, hopelessly compromised fool sitting in the Oval Office (well . . . occasionally, outside of “executive [i.e., Fox-watching and tweeting] time”) and the holders of the Constitutional duty to do something about it are either too compromised themselves, or too concerned about their own political fortunes ahead of their patriotic duty, to do so.
(I hope booman’s right that the shit Mueller’s investigation will reveal hitting the fan will finally be the factor to render that treasonous position no longer tenable — but I don’t feel nearly as confident of that as he seems to, given the Banana Republicans’ record to date. May booman be right and me wrong on that. Please.)
Why can’t he be “impossibly stupid” AND compromised.
Remember what HRC labled the donald….Puppet
EXACTLY! Being impossibly stupid doesn’t lessen his criminal culpability and treason one iota. And while Booman notes that he’s “doing what he has to do,” the wonder is that he’s so out of touch with basic American values, and so blinded by his narcissistic belief that he can “sell anything” — he’s “that good a conman” — that he actually conned himself at Helsinki into thinking he had done a “great job” and that the great majority of Americans would eat this shit sandwich with gusto.
My bottom line is that he’s a goddamned fascist whose idea of Making America Great Again is transforming our democracy into an authoritarian kleptocracy that has the “appearance” of a democratic republic, but where the game is rigged to keep the GOP and the 1% permanently in power at the expense of the rest of us.
The existential threat we face is that the GOP Congress is just fine with this, beginning with McConnell and Paul Ryan. Nothing in our history threatens American Democracy more than this treason from within, even though a majority of Americans are opposed to what is going on.
In that sense, I view a lot of the GOP pushback as alarm that he is giving the game away, rather than genuine concern about his objectives.
. . . Didn’t state or imply otherwise.
I agree with everything but this:
Trump knows that Putin’s government and mob are guilty, because he was working with them.
Remember, more than anything else, Trump is a liar. If he can convince you that he “believes Russia is innocent” it implies that Trump wasn’t colluding with them in the attack on our democracy.
His claims to believe that Russia is innocent are completely self-serving.
I honestly think Trump believes that’s all just normal “business” stuff that “everybody does,” that he’s being singled out about and picked on, like somebody who’s convinced that the highway patrolman gave him a speeding ticket because of the nice car or the out-of-town plates.
No doubt. I think a large part of his stupidity simply derives from him never having anyone call him on his BS. He’s lived his whole life in a bubble where he’s always been surrounded by yes-men. Even these articles describe a White House staff looking for an easy way to break the news to him.
That’s why Dan Coats’ simple statement of the obvious comes across to him as a betrayal
Well, he’s got you conned is all I can say about that.
How am I “conned”? I’m saying he’s like Tony Soprano or one of his associates (like the City Councilman played by Peter Riegert): he works in a fundamentally criminal environment but he’s never known anything else and he believes it’s just “the business world” — “Get real,” he would tell anyone who pointed out that he was breaking labor or racketeering laws (which is exactly how he’s publicly rationalized Putin’s murderous activities: “We all do bad stuff”).
I thought my speeding ticket analogy made this clear: “Why is the highway patrolman picking on me? Everybody’s going fast; it must be a grudge or vendetta” (which is akin to claiming “Fake News” when challenged).
So I’m not saying he’s not an overt criminal. I’m saying it’s more subtle and complex than that (and, if anything involving Trump can be either “subtle” or “complex,” its his relationship to the truth): he knows he’s doing stuff that, if discovered, would get him in trouble — the way a teenage pot-smoker or my driver breaking the speed limit — but, like both of them, he doesn’t think the behavior is 1) wrong or 2) unique and therefore bridles and takes it personally when he’s called out for it.
That lines up with my theory that Trump is being told by the Russians that a “relationship” with Russia will be seen as a good thing and that he will appear strong by pushing back at allies and promoting the agenda of Putin. Then when he doesn’t get the praise he was told would be coming his way, he’s shocked and then mad when he has to walk it back. At the same time, he does have the same worldview as Putin which is based on domination by wealthy men like him. He wants to be in the club.
It’s not just the Russians….
I don’t know exactly how “impossibly stupid” he is, Booman. He appears not to be dumb enough to lose.
So far.
Nasty? Uncultured? Mean? Egotistical? Sexist? Tasteless? Vicious?
Yup.
But here he is…almost three years after he started his runup to the primaries…still successfully facing off the collected might of the central forces of the most powerful nation on earth.
The world’s greatest dumb act?
Ever?
Could be…
AG
‘Facing off’??? Fergawdsakes he has a unified GOP government, a House that has a substantial caucus that would support him if he executed some random person in the street just to watch them die, a Senate in control of a craven authoritarian with no regard for democracy, who blocked any action on the Russian meddling during the election , rigged the Supreme court, and a rabid base who are rapidly morphing into a rabid cult of personality.
Oh yes, and multiple powerful media empires with vast reach dedicated to supporting him.
That’s hardly the ‘collected might of the central forces’ of anything much less the ‘most powerful nation on earth’.
The only reason that the GOP hasn’t completely steamrolled their agenda through is because they’re hopelessly fractious and their central over-riding thesis is that government is the enemy, so actually governing isn’t slightly in their wheelhouse.
All they’re good at is breaking things.
Unified only in fear. Fear of not getting re-elected if they cross him.
You didn’t notice the concerted agreement of almost all Republicans that he should backtrack his pro-Putin statements after Helsinki? He did, too. A first win for the RatPubs regarding Trump.
I believe that they would be happy to get rid of him if they thought that they could get away with it. Remember the primaries. He scared the shit out of the Republican Party by mopping the floor with their strongest candidates. He’s a loose cannon, and they know it. When you had a loose cannon on a sailing ship, everyone was at risk of drowning.
Their “central thesis” isn’t that government”is the enemy, it’s that government that they cannot control for their own profit is the enemy.
They cannot control him.
They cannot even predict him.
Therefore…he is an enemy.
Watch.
At the first really serious slip up they’ll be on him like white on rice.
Watch.
AG
Arthur, FUCK your Trump admirations.
Really.
Actually, I thought that comment was astute.
Agreed. Of course these motherfuckers would love to get rid of him. But doing so is not cost free. McConnell understands power more than anyone on the political scene. I’d respect him if I didn’t have any morals.
But at the same time, I think they’re all miscalculating, in that McConnell doesn’t realize how much shit Trump is in, and he thinks he’d actually win a battle of “Delay SCOTUS vote until October”. Bring it on, Mitch, says I.
Arthur has gone on and on here about the need to disrupt the status quo. Seen through that framework, we can observe in this comment and others how much he is enjoying Trump, his unbearable governance and the harmful societal changes it has brought. He likes the fact that Trump causes problems for members of Congress and many, many others.
He has no quarrel with what Trump has pursued. Look at Arthur’s writings here. He not only prefers these cruel right-wing policies, he loves the style of the Insult President. AG’s very occasional claims that he is no fan of Trump are a sham with no good evidence behind them. He thinks it preserves his legitimacy as he prioritizes driving wedges between Democrats. I became sick of allowing him to get away with the sham.
Thank you, Booman.
I really cannot quite get my mind around centerfielddj’s almost fanatic dismissals of me as some kind of closeted right-wing crank. Anyone with a clear mind and fairly good reading skills would recognize my sincerity. All we really disagree about is the best methods to get rid of the Neocentrist/Trumpist cancer.
I think that relying on the centrist wing of the Democratic Party to do so will not work. It is as simple as that. If they lose…as they have so often and disastrously lost since the Clinton era in the presidential, congressional and state government fields…then we get another 6 years or so of Trumpism/Republicanism. If they win? Then we get another faux savior like Obama and the wars…of all kinds, internal and international…continue, as does the selling of the U.S. to the highest bidders/lowest wages.
Is it that centerfielddj is just too convinced of his own correctness to even understand the argument? Or is it that what is happening is just DNC-sponsored neocentrist Dem politics as usual. Blame, blame, blame…like the attempts to non-person Bernie Sanders by the DNC since the 2016 primaries? Continuing to this day!!!
I really don’t know.
Is he/she/it a pro or a just another middle-aged, misguided DNC/Clinton fan?
We’ll probably never know.
So it goes…
AG
P.S. If centerfielddj is some kind of pro…well, that’s about all the evidence we need not to count on the DNC as it now stands. They don’t hire very well.
The fact that you constantly lie about everything makes it impossible to “recognize your sincerity”.
>> some kind of closeted right-wing crank
I don’t think anyone would call you a “closeted” right wing crank, you’re totally an out and proud right-wing crank.
This is what we call a classic non-denial denial.
You’re a right winger; you believe in regressive policies. You’ve occasionally let your right wing policy preferences leak out here, tried to avoid them when you find them inconvenient, defended them when pushed.
You’re claiming the Democratic Party is not liberal enough while holding your own policy views which have you far to the right of the most conservative Democratic Congressmembers. Your statements here are rankly dishonest, intended clearly to drive wedges, engage fights and depress voter turnout on our side.
You’re doing this while the horrors of the Trump Administration and its Legislative and Judicial handmaidens escalate. This is why I continue to invite you to fuck off with your bullshit.
Yep.. pretty much. I came to the same conclusion after years of reading his both sides vacuous nonsense.
The guy has promoted Ron and Rand Paul along with libertarian views here for years and now pretends he’s some kind of progressive. Forever looking for the next train to hitch a ride on.
Just stop the gas-lighting.
You write:
That train goes two ways.
Away from correct action and towards it.
Sometimes the leftinesses are closer to the truth; sometimes it’s their opposition.
It’s circular…and three dimensional as well. The real truths of the matters meet at the moral top of the circle. All else is bullshit compromise in search of power.
Deal wid it.
AG
You’re a right wing nut. Thanks for all your inadvertent confirmations of that fact.
I’ll be goddamned if I’m going to let a right wing nut criticize the Democratic Party for not being far enough to the left. What a fraudulent and tiresome argument you bring to us.
He’s a nincompoop but with ‘pizza rat’ determination.
Trump and his allies in and out of Congress bitterly complain about the “unfair” media coverage of him. This is beyond absurd. First, Trump has his on major cable news network (Fox) and a do-nothing, protective Congress that gets privileged coverage by the MSM. Second, his behavior, both domestically and especially internationally, is almost literally unprecedented by a U.S. President. Virtually, any other president who behaved like Trump would be either impeached already or under many multiple investigations, not just the Mueller investigation, in which he is not (yet) a actual target.
Trump’s massive ego and enormous self-regard along with his legions of hatreds are the reason he is so criticized. At least 90% of the bad media coverage of him is entirely self-inflicted. This is the sign of not only a stupid individual but one who always puts his ego above his duties as President. No sympathy at all for him.
It’s my contention that dump is fathoms more ignorant of the wider world than everyone assumes. He is a malignant version of Chauncey The Gardener in ‘Being There’. I kid you not.
So many incredibly scandalous things have been revealed about the 2016 election and its aftermath, it had completely slipped my mind that Tad Devine, the chief strategist for Bernie Sanders’ 2016 Presidential campaign, did political consultant work this decade with Paul Manafort. More disturbingly, public reporting showed Devine was communicating with Konstantin Kilimnik, one of the Russians indicted by Mueller’s team, as he prepared to join the Sanders campaign.
Fortunately, Mueller’s investigators remembered this interesting fact, and it appears one of the recent Manafort indictments includes communications from Devine.
This worthwhile thread reminds us that Tad Devine has shown himself willing to engage in the most filthy, society-damaging campaign strategies in order to try to win.
The 2002 Peruvian Presidental campaign and our 2016 POTUS campaign do seem to have some chaotic traits in common.
I am on the record as saying Tad Devine was not a good hire, but I don’t believe he stuck around for the blood money obtained by Manafort when the snipers started shooting in Ukraine. They’re all scum, however.
If Marcy Wheeler is to be believed we are going to find out that parts of Clinton’s campaign was also utilizing disinformation from Russia, but she wasn’t specific about what she meant by that:
Brian Lehrer Show
Around 15:00.
How about…. people love narcissists. Sometimes that includes other narcissists – one narc looks up to and emulates a more successful narc that isn’t threatening in any important way, and that perhaps is even supportive.
So, Mr Trump does his best to love bomb Putin, the star in his sky, the man he most wants to be. What other people think of this is of no importance.
I actually think that it is much more complicated than that. I think that they are competitors…just as are rival mob capos.
All alliances are self-serving.
“Friends” today, enemies tomorrow if need be.
AG
Maybe, but I don’t see much evidence of competition.
Trump’s the one who made the deal with the devil and now he’s peddling as fast as he can.
Excellent.
I think we’ve moved past that age old question, since the Trump administration is clearly both. But we’re still left with the question of whether he’s more stupid than evil.
This, at least, puts another point on the “stupid” side.
If he was as evil as he is stupid he’d have cloven hoofs and a bifurcated tail.
The only thing you really have to know about Putin to understand Trump is that he is one of richest, if not the richest, man on earth and he controls a vast fortune the way a mafia don would.
As fitting a sociopath, Trump only understands money and the power used to obtain it. Becoming the corrupt king of the oligarchs, just like his buddy vlad, is his ultimate ambition and Trump just can’t fathom the thought that anybody wouldn’t hold Putin up respect- the numbers don’t lie and how else would you ever keep score?
I just finished reading “The Road to Unfreedom” by Timothy Snyder. It is a very compelling read. I, like most Americans, was pretty ignorant on the history of Russia after the fall of the Berlin Wall and how Putin rose to power. One of the stories he tells is that Boris Yeltsin selected Putin for power from relative obscurity because he was the guy that most resembled the most popular character in Russia- a fictional KGB agent that did battle with the evil western forces that were destroying Russia. And from that moment on, Putin deftly manipulated the oligarchs to gain power over them and used nationalistic propaganda to get the rubes to support him.
Really, despite their completely different personalities and the fact that one of them isn’t a moron, Putin and Trump do have a lot in common and Snyder makes a pretty effective argument that America is becoming much more like Russia (aka a corrupt Oligopoly) than Russia is becoming like America. It is really an eye opening read.
“At last they pressed me to say what I thought of the events of the day, as my terse comments had often interested or amused our little company.
“So I simply said: ‘From this place and from this day forth commences a new era in the world’s history and you can all say that you were present at its birth.'” – Goethe
It feels more like a death to me and we will soon be attending a funeral soon.
Satan was born also; the ‘birth’ part seems quite neutral, in Goethe’s case he and his comrades had just been defeated in battle.
These are facts:
Trump is only consistent on four things
1, 2 and 3 require no thinking on his part they come naturally.
#4 is out of character from a consistency standpoint. Someone and somethings are `helping’ him maintain his discipline on this subject. And the fact that so many other acts align with this focus is beyond coincidence.
For example, he’s neither smart enough nor disciplined enough to call out Germany about their Russian energy purchases without someone scripting that for him. It’s very likely that there’s still a Russian agent in his family or staff or Cabinet who is guiding him.