Sometimes I feel like our country has simply airbrushed out our Jim Crow history. We act like we’ve been absolved of all guilt, as if we didn’t run a third of our country like a South African-apartheid state for nearly a full century. We forget that we were competing with the Soviets for hearts and minds in the Third World while we were treating blacks as subhuman here at home. It was a problem that had to be fixed. Asking nicely wasn’t working. Relying on the Supreme Court’s moral guidance wasn’t working. We finally created sufficient congressional will to do away with Jim Crow in 1964. We created voting rights in 1965. We created housing rights in 1968. The federal government had to do those things because the states could not generate the political will to do it themselves. But look at what Ron Paul had to say about this in 2004:
“[T]he forced integration dictated by the Civil Rights Act of 1964 increased racial tensions while diminishing individual liberty,” he wrote. “The federal government has no legitimate authority to infringe on the rights of private property owners to use their property as they please and to form (or not form) contracts with terms mutually agreeable to all parties.”
What Rep. Paul is saying here is that a private businessperson should be able to deny service, housing, or employment to someone based on their own prejudices and hatreds. At the very least, he is saying that the federal government has no constitutional authority to regulate these kinds of transactions. I don’t believe he would support individual states regulating the transactions either, although he might see that as legally permissible.
It shouldn’t be a surprise that a lot of people didn’t like integration. A lot of people didn’t like letting black people vote. They didn’t like sharing public spaces with them. They didn’t like hiring them or working with them. They didn’t like having them move into the neighborhood or go to schools with their children. They didn’t want to treat them as fully human and fully equal. Why would any of this surprise us? If those attitudes weren’t pervasive in our society, we wouldn’t have had any need for civil rights, voting rights, and housing rights bills.
People who didn’t like the end of Jim Crow naturally resented the Federal Government for ending Jim Crow, and they developed an ideology to explain why what the government had done was wrong. It was unconstitutional. It violated people’s inalienable rights. Similar arguments were used to justify slavery and to oppose federal civil rights legislation. But the former arguments were made in overtly racist terms. Here, for example, is Sen. Stephen Douglas, speaking during the first Lincoln-Douglas debate.
I ask you, are you in favor of conferring upon the negro the rights and privileges of citizenship? (“No, no.”) Do you desire to strike out of our State Constitution that clause which keeps slaves and free negroes out of the State, and allow the free negroes to flow in, (“never,”) and cover your prairies with black settlements? Do you desire to turn this beautiful State into a free negro colony, (“no, no,”) in order that when Missouri abolishes slavery she can send one hundred thousand emancipated slaves into Illinois, to become citizens and voters, on an equality with yourselves? (“Never,” “no.”) If you desire negro citizenship, if you desire to allow them to come into the State and settle with the white man, if you desire them to vote on an equality with yourselves, and to make them eligible to office, to serve on juries, and to adjudge your rights, then support Mr. Lincoln and the Black Republican party, who are in favor of the citizenship of the negro. (“Never, never.”) For one, I am opposed to negro citizenship in any and every form. (Cheers.) I believe this Government was made on the white basis. (“Good.”) I believe it was made by white men for the benefit of white men and their posterity for ever, and I am in favor of confining citizenship to white men, men of European birth and descent, instead of conferring it upon negroes, Indians, and other inferior races. (“Good for you.” “Douglas forever.”)
And a little more:
Mr. Lincoln, following the example and lead of all the little Abolition orators, who go around and lecture in the basements of schools and churches, reads from the Declaration of Independence, that all men were created equal, and then asks, how can you deprive a negro of that equality which God and the Declaration of Independence awards to him? He and they maintain that negro equality is guarantied by the laws of God, and that it is asserted in the Declaration of Independence. If they think so, of course they have a right to say so, and so vote. I do not question Mr. Lincoln’s conscientious belief that the negro was made his equal, and hence is his brother, (laughter,) but for my own part, I do not regard the negro as my equal, and positively deny that he is my brother or any kin to me whatever. (“Never.” “Hit him again,” and cheers.)
That was 1858. Not much had changed by 1948, when Strom Thurmond ran for president as a Dixiecrat, saying:
“I wanna tell you, ladies and gentlemen, that there’s not enough troops in the army to force the Southern people to break down segregation and admit the nigger race into our theaters, into our swimming pools, into our homes, and into our churches.”
Did anyone seriously think that these kinds of attitudes could be legislated out of existence? Or that a significant number of people wouldn’t resent the Federal Government for sending in enough troops to force the Southern people to break down segregation? Naturally, those attitudes persisted. But they persisted in less overtly racist ways. Ron Paul’s newsletters occasionally delved into the former style, but that’s more of a slip-up than a regular practice. People know better these days than to say white people are a superior race. The coded way to say that is to insist that the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was an unconstitutional overreach that actually made race relations worse.
Because, you know, under Jim Crow, race relations were just fine.
You can go to any number of racist forums, today or in the archives, and find lively discussion of the merits of Ron Paul, who is usually assumed to be “one of us.”
“Everybody, all of us back in the 80′s and 90′s, felt Ron Paul was, you know, unusual in that he had actually been a Congressman, that he was one of us and now, of course, that he has this broad demographic–broad base of support,” Mr. Black said on his broadcast yesterday.
Mr. Black is a former Klansman and member of the American Nazi Party who founded the “white nationalist” website Stormfront in 1995. He donated to Mr. Paul in 2007 and has been photographed with the candidate. Mr. Paul has vocal supporters in Stormfront’s online forum. Mr. Black has repeatedly said he doesn’t currently think Mr. Paul is a “white nationalist.”
Don Black doesn’t think Ron Paul is “currently” a white nationalist, but it doesn’t matter much because his policies and positions haven’t changed at all since the 1980’s and 1990’s. Black still supports him, as does David Duke, on the grounds that Ron Paul’s policies are hostile to Israel.
“Again, I go back to that, you know, traditional topic that I always talk about, you know, the powers of international Zionism–a power in banking, a power in media, a power in government influence, in campaign finance–a power that’s, you know, hurting the values of this country on behalf of Israel,” Mr. Duke said. “So, I would vote for Ron Paul at this moment because he’s one of the few candidates who have policies in this regard and this realm that I wholeheartedly support, and that’s why I’d vote for him.”
Ron Paul refuses to disavow these kind of supporters, Nazis and Klansmen, making lame excuses like this:
“I’ll go to anybody who I think I can convert to change their viewpoints — so that [Holocaust-denying] would be to me incidental,” he said. “I’m always looking at converting people to look at liberty the way I do.”
The ideology of Ron Paul grew organically from Jim Crow dead-enders who felt, and still feel that this is a white nation under threat.
Mr. Black of Stormfront said the newsletters helped make him a Ron Paul supporter. “That was a big part of his constituency, the paleoconservatives who think there are race problems in this country,” Mr. Black said.
“We understand that Paul is not a white nationalist, but most of our people support him because of his stand on issues,” Mr. Black said. “We think our race is being threatened through a form of genocide by assimilation, meaning the allowing in of third-world immigrants into the United States.”
You never know what is in someone’s heart or when they might have a change of heart. It’s not that Ron Paul necessarily has any antipathy for black people. It’s that he’s managed to become the figurehead for neo-confederates, and leave the strong impression that he is a fellow-traveler with Klansmen, Nazis, Holocaust deniers, and white nationalists of all stripes. He never disavows their support. He always gives them just enough of a wink and a nod to keep them onboard.
While there are plenty of things that Ron Paul says that I agree with, you cannot lie down with a dog and not get fleas.
Booman,
there is a saying in my community when someone shows a side of themselves that you haven’t seen before and we say their “showing their ass…”
Well one thing this liberal fascination/love affair with Ron Paul has done is have alot of people who I consider reasonable to completely “show their ass”. People like Maddow, Stewart, Chris Hayes and Greenwald who just seems too willing to excuse Paul if not blatant, then overtly racist positions and commentary. This is not old defense for Paul that people can say was a past statement, Paul again re-interated his disdain for the Civil Rights Act on Sunday.
Yesterday, Ta-Nehisi Coates tweets from yesterday were outrageous, but it sorta brought home how ridiculous it is to completely ignore Ron Paul’s racist rantings just because he’s anti-war or something.
A few of TNC’s tweets:
“Ron Paul slams the 1964 Civil Rights Act. It’s OK because he’s against the drug war”
“For the record “I’m against the drug war” has officially replaced “I have a black friend.”
“”I think lynching is just swell-but too be clear I oppose crack/cocaine disparities.”
Perhaps you’ve seen something I haven’t, but I think there’s a big difference between what Maddow, Hayes, and Stewart have done – praise specific aspects of Ron Paul’s message and personality – and what Greenwald just did, which is to draw a positive vision of Ron Paul in total.
no offense BooMan, but FUCK what he said in 2004.
how about what he said YESTERDAY:
Despite recent accusations of racism and homophobia, Republican presidential candidate Rep. Ron Paul (R-Texas) stuck to his libertarian principles on Sunday, criticizing the historic Civil Rights Act of 1964 because it “undermine[d] the concept of liberty” and “destroyed the principle of private property and private choices.”
“If you try to improve relationships by forcing and telling people what they can’t do, and you ignore and undermine the principles of liberty, then the government can come into our bedrooms,” Paul told Candy Crowley on CNN’s “State of the Union.” “And that’s exactly what has happened. Look at what’s happened with the PATRIOT Act. They can come into our houses, our bedrooms our businesses … And it was started back then.”
http://bobcesca.com/blog-archives/2012/01/ron-paul-bashes-civil-rights-act.html
No attempt to square that with his position on DOMA — or more accurately his positions — I take it?
Look, the guy’s just this generation’s Gerald L.K. Smith. A crank.
Paul’s concept of “freedom” and “liberty” seems largely negative – it’s the freedom to oppress (which is really what the whole ‘states rights’ vibe of Paul’s rhetoric seems to amount to). I know that there are Paul apologists who will start saying that Paul’s ideas of freedom are derived from the Austrian school of economics (think Hayek), and Ayn Rand. But really, what kind of ‘freedom’ were they advocating? It was something that a guy who was hardly a ‘leftist’ in any meaningful sense of the term, Karl Polanyi saw as negative:
‘…the freedom to exploit one’s fellows,or the freedom to make inordinate gains without commensurable service to the community, the freedom to keep technological inventions from being used for public benefit, or the freedom to profit from public calamities secretly engineered for private advantage.’ (from Polanyi’s book ‘The Great Transformation’ – cited in David Harvey’s book ‘A Brief History of Neoliberalism’)
I mention TNC because TNC is far from an O-bots and think whole Paul thing is really pissing off alot of the black blog I read. Once the Paul campaign runs it’s course a lot of them I bet won’t soon forget how easy some white liberal bloggers excused the racism inherent in those Paul newsletter.
I don’t understand why David Duke thinks Paul would be hostile to Israel. Paul wouldn’t be hostile to Israel at all. He’d just tell them that they’re on their own. Not sure how this is hostile to Israel, especially when he supported their bombing of Iraq in 1981.
cutting off all foreign aid to Israel would not be considered a hostile act?
Well, not hostile like bombing Israel would be.
Why don’t you ask some Israelis whether they’d feel a bit of hostility if America suddenly cut $3 billion out of their budget.
But we have an historical example. Go read about Poppy Bush and Israel’s aid.
No, that’s not a hostile act. It’s common sense. A hostile act would be to give them the sanctions that they deserve.
Oh, come on. If this was, say, people on home heating aid who Ron Paul wanted to cut off, you wouldn’t be arguing that it’s not hostile to do so.
Arguing “But Israel deserves to be cut off,” while perhaps legitimate, doesn’t exactly disprove the existence of hostility.
Those aren’t comparable. People need that money for home-heating. It’d be like cutting off money for farming subsidies. They might make our food cheaper, but they distort prices so that we’re buying food that’s not good for us, and crowds out competition from other countries (which further impoverishes them).
This is like saying Obama’s hostile to business…it’s ridiculous.
Cutting of farm subsidies would, indeed, be quite hostile to agribusiness.
Sometimes it’s a good idea to be hostile to a certain party, by cutting off their aid. Some aid programs are worse ideas than others.
But that doesn’t have anything to do with whether cutting them off is hostile. Would a billionaire father who wrote his millionaire son out of his will be committing a hostile act? Of course he would! This remains true, even if the son doesn’t need the money, and he deserves to be cut off.
first of all, I didn’t use the term “hostile act,” which has a military connotation. I said David Duke likes Ron Paul because Ron Paul shows hostility towards Israel. I don’t mean that Duke thinks Ron Paul will attack Israel.
If you want to define down hostility, that’s a semantic argument.
Ron Paul’s policies would be greeted with loud boos in Israel.
Well when I hear the word “hostile,” it has a strong connotation regardless. We’re hostile towards Iran; we’re hostile towards Venezuela. We have not military attacked either in Obama’s administration (unless you believe we’re the ones who offed the Iranian scientists), but I would still say we’re quite hostile to them. This isn’t how I see Paul’s stance towards Israel.
Anything that doesn’t kowtow Likud’s fascism would be greeted with boos in Israel (which is why Bush Sr. got along fine with Labor) — including Obama’s policies.
Anyway, fair enough on the semantics.
I think where David Duke’s support comes in is from Paul’s railing against the Federal Reserve, and because David Duke is someone who equates Jew with Zionist (as he’s an outspoken antisemite). Thus, it’s not that Paul would be hostile to Israel, but that Paul would be hostile towards what Duke perceives to be a Jewish handle on our media and financial system.
I think David Duke’s statement speaks for itself without much need for parsing.
Thanks for posting on this. One problem is that White ppl know nothing about Reconstruction and the inception of Jim Crow. The white out of USA history of that period is so overwhelming, not sure how to remedy it, but for starters Booker T. Washington’s Up From Slavery and bios of W.E.B. duBois and Frederick Douglass should be required reading.
correction: should read “most White ppl know nothing about reconstruction etc
I’d also recommend the more contemporary writings of African Existentialist philosopher Lewis R. Gordon, who has applied Sartre’s concept of bad faith to the problem of racism. Thankfully, he seems to write with an eye to a lay audience (which would include folks like me) as well as to an academic audience.
Yes, also much contemporary writing to be read. Here I’m concerned about gaining knowledge of Reconstruction and the history of Jim Crow – that’s why I recommend autobiography and biography of the period, the concept and consequences of Uplift, etc
Man, this is really a new low for you, Booman. Must be getting desperate, eh? Tomorrow is going to tell an interesting tale.
Once again, here is Ron Paul’s plainly spoken…and consistent…take on racism.
And you quote the virulent racist Stephen Douglas in an attempt to tar Ron Paul with the same brand?
Nice.
Then you run this tired game. You quote Ron Paul…again, speaking very plainly…
And then you presume to tell us what he “really” means?
No, that’s not what he said.
Then you backtrack a little.
Yes, that is what he said. But then you presume even more with your own God-like omniscience…or else you simply follow the talking points guide that you are daily receiving either by email or through your newly fitted centrist Captain Midnight tinfoil helmet…
You don’t “believe,” eh?
Show me where he said this. Show me where he even implied it. You cannot, because that is not his story. He is a states’ rights man, 24/7.
And then? Then you barrel right into this can of dead worms.
Man…where are you at these days?
“The ideology of Ron Paul grew organically from Jim Crow dead-enders who felt, and still feel that this is a white nation under threat.”
No, Booman, it did not “grow organically” from these people. In fact, they are parasites that have latched on to Ron Paul. Nothing more. Even the quote that you used from this execrable white racist disproves your statement.
“But…”
That’s a mighty big “but,” Booman. Do you realize that there are any number of Muslim haters and/or true Jewish supremacists who support the president for exactly the same reasons as this guy references although they also realize that Obama is not (hopefully) on the same boat with them?
“…because of his stand on issues?”
Please.
Further, the only “organically” relavent statement in this whole post is this one from Ron Paul:
Sounds like the equivalent of organic farming to me.”Don’t try to poison the pests…try to find out why they exist and then to use them to do something good.” It sounds suspiciously “true Christian” to me as well. You know…like what Christ tried to do? Don’t kill them. Don’t ostracize them. Forgive them. Why? Because “They know not what they do.” Yup. Try to convert them instead.
Get well soon., Booman.
i miss ya.
AG
P.S. Watch what happens tomorrow. It’s gonna be…interesting. Bet on it. I have recently saved a number of sites that buttress my own take on what will happen tomorrow but I do not have the time today to lay it all out. Long story short? Sure.
The same kind of largely social media-driven bonding that has been so important during this past year from the Egyptian uprising right on through the success of the OWS movement…something that does not appear very strongly in either the mainstream old-style polls or in the consideration of the equally mainstream, old-style pundit and political types from whom you get much of your positional info…is going to kick in during the Iowa Caucus, and all “regular” bets are going to be off from then on. Right on through the remainder of the political year. Way off. Watch. What we are seeing in the Ron Paul campaign is a digitally-based sea change. Bet on it. The Obama-style web efforts of 2007/2008 are already yesterday’s news. Shit happens fast now, and Obama is beginning to look…outdated…already. So it goes.
Man, this is really a new low for you, Booman. Must be getting desperate, eh? Tomorrow is going to tell an interesting tale.
Yeah, Booman, if the Republican primary electorate in Iowa gives Ron (“The LA Riots only ended when it was time for the blacks to pick up their welfare checks”) Paul a strong showing, it will totally prove that he’s not a racist.
Totally.
Racists believe that all individuals who share superficial physical characteristics are alike: as collectivists, racists think only in terms of groups.
If you’ve ever been robbed by a young black person in Washington, DC, you’ll know how incredibly fleet of foot they can be.
More tired shit.
He has said that he didn’t write that crap. If you have any ear for syntax whatsoever…the handwriting or fingerprints of verbal of expression…it is plain that he didn’t write it. He has said that he made mistakes during that time and that the nasty shit in those newsletters that got by him was part of those mistakes. He has over and over again stated his opposition to racism on the plainest of reasons…it is wasteful of human talents. People who have known him well…including some who are now opposing him…have stated that in private he evinces no racist tendencies whatsoever.
And y’all simply continue to trot out the same empty bullshit every chance you get.
Sad.
And…on the evidence of his continuing rise in the national polls…it’s not working, either.
Go find a new tool. This one has no edge left.
None whatsoever.
AG
As usual, focused on the man (or woman) and not their movement.
Always looking for a hero. An easy out. MEDIASTRIKE!!!
And, you know, your ass really is showing.
Who gives a fuck if Ron Paul wrote that shit? He said he did. He justified every word of it before he took it back and said he didn’t write it and couldn’t justify it.
He gathered a huge base of support specifically by having those newsletters go out. He’s raised money off hate group mailing lists.
This is what he has been all about. His whole ideology grew out of this rancid pile of manure. And now it’s blossomed into some lawyerly bullshit that can only convince morons that opposition to the Civil Rights Act of 1964 isn’t some shout-out to the goddamned Klan.
Here’s a tip: the Klan hear’s the message. Black people hear the message. WTF don’t you hear it?
Go back to 1964, take to the Senate floor, and explain to us again why you’re opposing the bill because racism is just putting people in groups where they don’t belong.
See if anyone can understand that stupid jive.
More tired shit.
It doesn’t become “tired” just because you don’t like to hear it.
He has said that he didn’t write that crap.
He went into the political-messaging business with whomever did. For years.
And that’s the best case scenario.
Go find a new tool. This one has no edge left.
None whatsoever.
Yeah, your spittle-flecked responses sure do demonstrate how little you care. BTW, Paul’s numbers are dropping.
I’d quote this to AG, but he obviously doesn’t give a shit. (Emphasis mine):
I understand it. He’s running for president, for Pete’s sake.
Sullivan had un-endorsed him over these issues.
Myself, even though he’s very very right on civil liberties and some foreign policy, light years ahead of Obama and most democrats, he doesn’t believe that government should be used to improve lives even when it can, and by extension favors corporate power.
I’m not white, I’ve experienced racism. Before I was born there were signs that told my people which bathrooms and water fountains they could use, and my parents were struck in American schools if they spoke their first language other than English. But Id on’t even have to go into the race thing to find reasons I think Ron Paul is bad.
Ands what involvement did Ron Paul have in all of this? Was he the one who “invited” the man to speak? Did he then stand up and applaud this guy’s positions in opposition to Rep. Clay’s remarks? What did DiLorenzo say about the Fed and economics in general (His field of expertise.) Is Loyola College a white supremacist group as well? Exactly and precisely what is DiLorenzos’; connection to this white supremacist organization? (After recently witnessing the many totally politically-driven efforts to paint Ron Paul with the same brush I am very cautious about similar allegations. Prove it.) Does the Southern Poverty Law Center itself have some questions ongoing about its own activities? (It does.)
And that was way back in the year 2000!!!
Lincoln and the Civil War?
Think, man!!! Are you dead certain that the Civil War was overall a good thing? Can this be somehow proven or are you just spewing back the propaganda of your so-called “learning” years? (Remember, the winners write the history. Always and forever in their own favor.) And if it was “good”…good for whom? For the 8 or so generations of African Americans and other people of color who paid…and continue to pay…second-rate citizen dues in this so-called democracy? For the billions of people that the United States has in one way or another harmed by its economic imperialist actions over the ensuing 150 years or so? What if the union had split up? Would the U.S. have had the same kind of power that it has now? I think not. Would it have been able to interfere in the European war that came to be known as WWI? Probably not, and more probably not decisively. If that had not happened would the rancid Treaty of Versailles that plunged Germany into absolute financial chaos have been written and enforced? And if that had not happened, would little Mr. Schicklgruber have been able to metamorphose into great big Adolf Hitler or would he have remained a homeless, semi-talented painter of street scenes working for a subsistence living on the side streets of Vienna?
Too many cans of worms here, and most of them dead.
Try to find some more bait.
I eat this lame shit up like candy.
AG
Think, man!!! Are you dead certain that the Civil War was overall a good thing?
You keep eating that candy, AG. Thumbs up, bro. You’re doing great.
I very rarely agree with joefromlowell, but comparing even the worst post-Civil War years unfavorably to slavery is fucked up.
You try being owned by someone, seeing your husband, siblings, and kids off like cattle, and then tell me how liberty is somehow not as good as bondage.
On this point I can unequivocally say “Yes” – Reconstruction just needed to be seen all the way though…
But it wasn’t.
Not yet, anyway.
So there we jolly well are, aren’t we.
AG
looks like a real secret racist to me…
http://youtu.be/8Rv0Z5SNrF4
and one who totally believes in the lefty spin on libertarianism, that it really means “I got mine, so too bad for you”.
So, AG….
I’m a constant reader of the Boo Trib, but only an occasional commenter. I’m driven to comment now in response to your statements here.
Your contributions are usually contrarian, I join others in believing your attitude is often a pain in the ass, but I’ve found enough of your comments thought-provoking that it keeps me reading. I’m going to give your screeds a pass from now on.
Excusing Ron Paul’s opposition to the Civil Rights Act is awful. First, your support for his view is morally repellent. Second, your arguments don’t fit together. If Paul “is a states’ rights man, 24/7”, then he certainly WOULD say that “a private businessperson should be able to deny service, housing or employment to someone based on their own prejudices and hatreds” if the state that businessperson operated in made it lawful to discriminate in those ways.
“Show me where he even implied it?” His sonny-boy, also an opponent of the Act, said very directly that a restauraunt owner should have the right to close their lunch counter to blacks all over again. Rand wanked on to claim that the free market would magically make discriminating businesses unprofitable, but you’d admit that’s bullshit, right, AG?
But, then: asking “Are you dead certain that the Civil War was overall a good thing?”, and engaging in very fantastical thinking in order to justify your views (If we had just allowed the South to continue slavery, Hitler may not have risen???), betrays a real sickness in you.
Your subsequent braggart’s claims of superiority in the face of almost total opposition makes you kin to the guest who shits on the dining room table and says to the horrified dinner party, “What? It’s funny! You guys have no sense of humor.”
I ask you to examine your intellectual rigor and moral concepts. BooMan clearly believes my request will be ignored. I won’t be reading you in any depth from now on, so I might not find out.
A question to you: In the arguments you make in this thread, I see little evidence that you intend to persuade. What, then, are you doing?
I said that I was not going to write any more regarding Ron Paul until the results of the Iowa caucus were known, and I am not. However, this superficially quite rational attack post of yours calls for an answer. A personal answer.
Here it is.
You write:
Being “thought-provoking” often entails being considered a pain in the ass. Most people never really think, they just paddle along in the ocean of memes that has surrounded them from early childhood. Thus it is often painful for them to be forced…or even encouraged…to do so.
For example, you write:
No. If I was pro-segregation of the races, if I thought that Africans or any other race were in any way inferior to Northern Europeans, that would be “morally repellent.” Morally repellent in the sense that it is clearly untrue, an untruth that causes pain to others. But I plainly do not think that. If you don’t know what I do, I am a quite high-level jazz and latin musician in NYC and have been so for 40+ years. And I am of Northern European descent. Or is that “ascent?” Whatever. Well over half of my life models have been non-white.
So then you have to “think.” Why would someone like me say what I am saying? Am I stupid? Most people…like me or not…will concede that I am indeed not “stupid.” Am I a contrarian, as you suggest? (Whatever that overused word really means.) No, I am not. I truly don’t care if I agree with you or not. I look at things and make up my own mind. That is not being a “contrarian,” it is simply being an independent thinker. I am not a contrarian; I simply disagree with you. Do not use meaningless labels. That is not thinking, it is simply swimming with the memes.
More? Sure.
And?
Take this further, please.
Say you disagree with polygamy…of any kind, including females with multiple mates. Or you disagree with the use of alcohol or marijuana. If a “state”…and by that I mean a sovereign nation as well as a state presently part of the U.S…made it lawful to act in those ways, what would you do? Invade that state? Force it to act in accordance with your own beliefs? I will admit that this is actually a common reaction to differing belief systems, but really, centerfielddj…where do you draw the line? I draw it at the individual except in cases where individual actions seriously threaten the lives of others, and even there I am forced to draw a line of practicality by the law of limited resources. I will defend myself to the death and I will similarly defend those closest to me and my immediate society, but I simply cannot be a moral policeman for the entire world. The world is just too big for any power to be able to successfully run that game, and frankly, I am not all sure that what I “believe” is necessarily better than what other people believe. Not to the point of enforcing my own beliefs at the point of a gun I don’t.
You continue:
No, I would not admit that it’s bullshit because I think that it is a perfectly reasonable idea, one that has not been tried in this country for decades…decades that have brought immense changes in the way that people live and communicate. Yes, I believe that discrimination based on race is wrong. Why? Because I believe that it runs counter to the idea of human ecology, to the idea that we must use the environment on all levels as efficiently as possible if we…billions of us and growing even more numerous with each passing day… are going to survive on this small world. Human beings are part of that environment…perhaps the most important part on many levels, because it is our actions that most seriously impact it one way or another. And I truly believe that those who include all human beings in their efforts will win out over those who do not.
I think that we should put this idea to the test and see what happens. If it doesn’t work…and what we are doing now certainly isn’t working…then try, try again. Nearly 50 years after the whole civil rights movement…certainly a good, long trial period…the United Sates is still a segregated society. Segregated economically and segregated in terms of educational opportunities as well. You quote MLK Jr.:
Been waiting.
Ain’t happening.
Not by a long shot.
In fact, it’s beginning to look a lot like “Never,” both to me and to a hell of a lot of other people as well. Time to try something else. Bet on it.
Further:
Howard Cosell once said to Muhammad Ali something to the effect that Ali was acting “truculent.” Ali answered “”I don’t know what ‘truculent’ means, but if that’s good, that’s what I am.” I am not sure what you mean by the word “sickness” above, but Ali’s answer will suffice as far as I am concerned. Are you dead certain that the Civil War was overall a good thing? I sketched out one of any number of quite possible results if the Civil War had not been fought and the Confederate states had been allowed to secede. I did not say that what I sketched out was the only possibility. That would be sickness. There simply are no “only” possibilities in life. The possibilities are endless. Infinite. How one can say with any surety that the results of a given event were “good”…were somehow better (or worse, for that matter) than many of the other possibilities…is beyond my understanding. The dominant American meme regarding the Civil War is that it was a good thing, but quite a strong counter-meme says that it was not. I said above that winners write the histories. They write the dominant memes too. Had the South won the Civil War or if that war had not occurred, everything would be different. Better? Worse? I have no idea and neither do you. But different? Bet on it.
And you go on.
“Almost total opposition,” eh? The kicker in that phrase?
The word “almost.”
There are a number of people at this particular dinner party who agree with me.
Another kicker?
Sure. The word “total.” It implies that this is the only dinner party in town, or at the very least the only style of dinner party that is available. I wandered over to to Daily Kos yesterday to see how a really authoritarian leftiness blog was handling the Paul phenomenon. Someone had posted a video that is up on YouTube, one that consists of a number of African-American people making good sense about their support for Ron Paul. The poster was summarily banned. Yet in the larger world there are literally thousands and thousands of people who are hearing some good ideas coming from Ron Paul. “Total” opposition? This ain’t the only dinner party in town, centerfielddj. In fact, it’s not even a particularly important one. Further, it’s not a dinner party, it’s a discussion group and I am neither joking nor am I simply shitting on the table as some kind of insult. Bet on that as well.
It is quite clear that I have done so. I ask the same of you.
Perhaps he does. I ask the same of him, that he examine his intellectual and moral positions. Maybe he will…he is often very bright…and maybe he won’t. So it goes.
As you must. Sleep tight and don’t let the Paul bugs bite.
What am I doing?
I am indeed “attempting to persuade.”
Failing?
In large part, yes.
So that goes as well.
I do keep trying, though.
As does Ron Paul.
So it all goes.
See you tomorrow, after the caucus is over.
Bet on it.
AG
Your intellectual rigor: still lacking. Sure, some segregation still exists in our society. You fold that fact into the apparent claim that rights which legally provide equal access to schooling, housing, health care, the vote, and so many other things previously denied minorities in America are not worth recognizing. No meaningful difference at all between life for minorities now and life under the Jim Crow policies and the Great Society. That’s false.
Your moral rigor: apparently absent. Not only would you be completely fine with the continuation of Jim Crow (BTW, individual actions during Jim Crow seriously threatened the lives and livelihoods of Negroes, Jews and their supporters), you would apparently be fine if more generations of Americans had been enslaved.
Among the effects of your misguided discipline is an inability to concede facts. You want to make me believe that some restaurants and other businesses in the South and elsewhere would not see an increase in their business if they announced that they would deny their services to minorities, and were allowed to do so. (Hell, have you heard some of the things the Republican base voters have been saying in the early primary states? Many Iowans would like to gain services segregated from Hispanics and African-Americans at this moment.)
Alternatively, you wish to make me believe that the discriminating business or institution would be inferior, but that American law shoudn’t care to defend the civil rights of minorities who were prevented from gaining access to those services.
Which would bring me to an appropriate question: Was Eisenhower wrong for bringing in the National Guard at Little Rock? JFK to protect the Freedom Riders? LBJ at Birmingham? Those were examples of forcing acceptance of the Federal laws at the point of a gun, right? You would have us believe it would have been better, or even equally valid, if those defenses of Federal law had not taken place?
No, AG, I don’t think you’re stupid at all. I think you’re enslaved by your intelligence. Your overweening self-regard prevents you from seeing the outcomes that would result from your disastrous policy prescriptions. That you are unable to see, or admit (I sincerely hope it’s the latter) that it would have been worse for the people of our Nation if the South had won the Civil War? That’s the sickness of yours I’m talking about. Your desire to theorize about potential outcomes from alternative conclusions prevents you from dealing with the central outcome: the continuation of slavery.
You haven’t examined your views at all. You make no meaningful concessions. I’d concede that well-meaning laws will not eliminate prejudicial attitudes or behavior based on those views. That’s a far sight from where you wish to place us, AG.
Whaddayou, kiddin’ me or what? “Some” segregation still exists? Where the fuck do you live, inside of a network sitcom? Get real.
Enough of you. You’re not in “center field”, you are playing way over the foul line in left field, and I’ve got news for you. Your so-called position isn’t even in the game anymore. “The left” has been superseded by the leftinesses, and the leftinesses are so self-deluded that they still think Barack Obama is in agreement with them, even after 3 years of perfectly plain proof of the falsity of that idea. That kind of blindness…the kind that is being evinced on Daily Kos and here…is evidence of an overwhelming toxicity.
You just don’t know it yet.
Maybe next year.
Nooooo…make that maybe next election cycle.
But I doubt it.
AG
Gee, hubris much, AG?
I didn’t want to think it possible, but it’s right here in your writings: you would find it acceptable if slavery existed in the United States today. Merely an alternative, competing reality which should be allowed to play out, which should not be done away with at the point of a gun if necessary.
Your lack of reading comprehension is only equalled by your own smug, self-righteous “leftiness.” No surprise. You and people like you are why the left has fallen so many times in the U.S. It’s the blindered, clomp-clomp-clomping Daily Kos mentality all over again, only you folks do not have the power to summarily ban on his blog.
So it goes.
Just as it’s always been.
Just as it’s always been.
AG
In the normal conduct of Congress, the chairman of a committee will invite certain people to appear at a hearing. He or she will typically allow a smaller number of witnesses invited by the minority.
It seems clear that the ranking member of Paul’s subcommittee did not invite an avowed racist to testify on economic matters. This was Paul’s first hearing on his most cherished issue. His witness list wasn’t the ‘B’ list. This was his ‘A’ list.
Look who he invited?
Why would he do that?
There are no other explanations. It’s not like the guy is an economist.
AG, you are either willfully ignorant or a total moron.
It was published WITH RON PAUL’s NAME ON IT.
A person is RESPONSIBLE for shit published with his name on it.
Which is it, willful ignorance or fucking total stupidity?
A PERSON IS RESPONSIBLE FOR SHIT THEY PUBLISH.
Then why aren’t the publishers of the NY Times, The Washington Post Time Magazine in jail for the literally thousands of lies that they published during the runup to the Iraq War?
Bullshit.
He fucked up. And he has admitted it, which is more than I can say for the bosses of all of the media that cooperated in that Iraq War farce.
Which is worse, data guy? A fuckup that lets a bunch of sentences get published and read by maybe a few thousand people or a concerted, weeks-long effort to conflate a terrorist attack with Iraq’s government and then promote a war that has left millions dead, injured or otherwise harmed and could quite conceivably be blamed for the current dismal state of the U.S. economy and our awful surveillance state status as well?
I am neither willfully ignorant nor a total moron, data guy. Bring me the heads of these media criminals…figuratively speaking, of course…along with those of the Bush administration and I will begin to consider looking into the possibility of a just punishment for Ron Paul. (As if running the gantlet being set up by the two-headed/one party system here in the United Staes of Omertica is not punishment enough.)
Get real.
Or get gone.
AG
He’s a racist, homophobic, and a sexist asshole.
Anyone who supports him must support these positions.
He said, yesterday: “Texas Representative Ron Paul today stood by statements he made in his 1987 book arguing that someone who is a victim of sexual harassment in the workplace should bear some responsibility for resolving the problem and that society should not bear the burden of paying for the care of AIDS victims.”
So, anyone who supports this piece of crap must also subscribe to his crap-shit views.
So, AG, you are now a racist sexist homophobe.
Congratulations.
The problem with all of the love that Ron Paul gets for his military-isolationist stance in lefty circles is that it treats that ideology and his racism as two distinct positions that can be considered separately, when in fact, they are one and the same.
Ron Paul’s opposition to foreign comes is best summed up in the phrase “Those people have been killing each other for centuries.” He sees the world outside our borders, particularly those areas outside of northwestern Europe, as inhabited by lesser breeds of humanity, and not worth our attention. Why help protect the Libyan people from a bloody dictator while they liberate their country? Because those people just aren’t worth the trouble.
It’s simply “screw you, I got mine” libertarianism on the world stage. You might as well laud Pat Buchanan.
The entire libertarian piece of shit is the worst ideology currently available. The most present danger to any American is the huge corporations that rule the country. For the libertarians, this simply does not exist as a threat.
It’s beyond belief.
Paul is a terrible threat. We would return to the US of 1820 if he were elected. He would eliminate the FDA, the Education Dept, the highway dept, the Fed, and life would be EXTREMELY difficult for normal Americans.
The entire libertarian piece of shit is the worst ideology currently available.
You know what’s coming next, right?
“Say what you will about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude; it’s an ethos!”
And paradoxically, he would then have to build up an even more draconian national security state in order to enforce that kind of society upon us. Something tells me that there are at least a few sectors of the American public who wouldn’t let it happen without one heck of a fight.
Actually, that’s not the least bit accurate. Libertarians hate corporatism and want to defang it the only way you can. Unlike dreamy socialistas, who still think they can somehow wrest control of Big Govt (and all the “do it or we’ll jail / shoot you” power it conveys) for their own good works, Libertarians realize that Corporatism needs centralized government to 1) skew laws in their favor 2) eradicate competition by legislating hurdles 3) bail themselves out when they screw up 4) etc. etc.
You can try all you want to dawdle with campaign finance laws, or other blather, but in the end you have to admit that even Obama is a Corporatist Shill like all the rest.
Libertarians want each individual, entrepreneur, small biz person, etc. to be free of this legislated anti-competitiveness, and instead want true free markets so that end use consumers may have the freedom to vote / choose what product they support, and not be stuck with what was ordained behind the closed doors and legislated into existence as “the model for doing business” in this sector or that. They want government to exist to protect individuals and their property from those who engage in fraud and deliberate malice, and that’s it. In that, corporations that lie, steal, pollute, etc. are in violation vs. protected as they are currently to rewrite the rules as they go along to keep the status-quo.
That’s a far cry from the typical lefty anti libertarian flack you just spewed that I quoted above. CORPORATISM exists plain as day — LIBERTARIANS HATE IT AND WARN ABOUT IT. Got it?
Either your comment is deliberate obfuscation or it reveals a total a lack of understanding of what libertarianism is.
WhoIsIOZ: Widgets
Naive libertarians like this think that they can shrink government to eliminate corporatism, and that without any countervailing forces pushing back against corporations, it will remain shrunk and never be brought under corporate sway.
In other words, they pretend that the government in the era of the Penn Coal decision and the western railroad expansion wasn’t under the control of corporations, on the grounds that it did nothing to help widows and orphans.
Yep. This is exactly right. I’m still voting for him in the primary, but I would never vote for him in the GE.
He’s a Pat Buchanan paleocon/Constitutionalist. No different than any “America firster”. It’s very nationalist. It’s quite distinct from Gary Johnson, even if a lot of their policies are similar.
His views on trade and immigration are a good bit different from Pat Buchanan, who IS a Nationalist. Ron Paul is for constitutional liberty — regardless of nationality, which ain’t Buchanan’s thing at all. RP recognizes that the U.S. is the primary bastion of liberty and freedom, and as a politician who swears an oath, his focus rests on viewing things from a constitutional perspective.
Bullshit. RP is for closed borders on immigration, unlike Gary Johnson. Fair enough on the trade, although they both oppose trade agreements. So the policies end up being the same anyway.
Hardly.
I think if you’ll find there’s a good bit of difference when comparing the two for yourself:
http://www.issues2000.org/tx/Ron_Paul_Immigration.htm
Admittedly, it’s been a while since I’ve sourced Pat Buchanan’s, or really re-reviewed Paul’s. I just googled up the Paul link above, and it’s pretty much as I recall it — it ain’t no Buchanan.
Mind you, not defending one or the other. My read, though, is Buchanan is far more stingy in his approach about protecting the more traditional U.S. European Christian-rooted heritage from being watered down by undesirables.
Paul’s is more of a “let’s not lure people in with benefits and artificially high wages” approach, and let the chips fall where they will” approach, where, through other policy adjustments the economy is building its annual yield and stores of seed-corn vs. the current tendency, which has been to both consume and redistribute seed corn and pretend it’s actual yield, when it’s actually destroying economic growth. Shrinking economies make the locals a lot more uppity vs. growing ones.
Perhaps that’s too nuanced to notice when viewed through the lefty lens, but it’s a wide enough to drive a truck between from a less left-radicalized perspective.
“if you vote for a modern republican, you are voting for a bad person”
http://crooksandliars.com/kenneth-quinnell/ron-pauls-racism-isnt-worst-thing
This touches on the racism among other things: Left Talking Points on Ron Paul. The perspective taken by Pink Scare is one that might not necessarily jibe with many here, but to the extent that there are a few leftists who frequent this place, I thought I’d at least make sure a few of you saw it.
Thanks, that’s a good summary.
The idiots, fools, and morons like He Who Shall Not Be named with 2 Initials are supporting this racist moron Paul for one reason – he opposes the Imperialist US Police Roll. That is a good thing. But that is 1 position and there are 50 which are as bad or worse than the other Repukeliscum.
Paul is an old, senile, racist, homophobic, sexist, pro-forced-birth piece of shit. Case closed.
I don’t understand why this person rejects electoral politics. Not even Emma Goldman rejected electoral politics to achieve her anarchist ends.
One of the very problems with American politics right now is that electoral politics is seen to be the only politics, and the horse race and talking points dominate actual discussion of policy.
The Occupy movement seeks to have a long and deep discussion about policy with a broad range of the 99%. That discussion has to occur before there can be any discussion of tactics related to electoral politics. And electoral politics has been seen as leading to the premature death of many grassroots movements.
Emma Goldman’s age was different.
the problem is the Occupy movement is largely having those policy conversations only with themselves. I haven’t heard hardly any discussion with regular people about it for awhile and really the only thoughts I hear are things like “why are they pissing off longshoreman and keeping them from getting paid?”
The general public has lost interest and that’s largely because it’s easier to be entertained than to have to worry about policy. That’s why progress takes so long.
One would think that if one had not seen what’s going on in hundreds of general assemblies. In some of the darnedest places — Bend OR, Lawton OK, Jackson MS, Birmingham AL, Augusta GA, Nashville TN, Harrisonburg VA, Johnson City TN, Colorado Springs CO, Great Falls MT, Fargo-Moorhead ND to name a few.
NYC and Oakland get the major media coverage because of the police response.
The public has lost interest in the Occupy movement generally but some of the discussions and outreach of local groups is registering with the public. People are beginning to hear the backstories of folks being foreclosed and evicted–primarily because of occupations of the houses to prevent evictions. There are at least a dozen or so mortgages that have been renegotiated as a result. Folks pushed back on the Verizon credit card payment charge primarily because of the heightened awareness of how banks and utilities treat customers, which resulted from Occupy protests of banking practices and utility rate hikes.
As for longshoremen, they are in a legal contradiction. They are prohibited by contract from striking, but they can honor picket lines. The deal is that a mediator decides if they get paid for honoring a picket line because of health or safety concerns. The target of protest on the port shutdowns were three: a Goldman-Sachs owned terminal in Seattle, a terminal in Longview at which longshoremen were working without contracts, and the way that shippers abuse truckers who are independent owner-operators and thus cannot form a union because of anti-trust laws. The ILWU leadership cannot be happy about community wildcat strikes because of the no-strike clause.
It is easier not to participate and find out what is going on locally. It is easier not to have to contend with differing opinions in a general assembly process. Entertaining ourselves to death is not a problem unique with the Occupy movement. It is a core cultural issue in having any civil society at all.
And the Wall Street media alternate between blackout and sensationalism. Police raids get covered (from the police viewpoint) but peaceful actions like today’s Occupy the Rose Parade get a deliberate media blackout (there’s a Reuters article that describes the deliberate part).
Are you sure that t (the blogger behind Pink Scare) is against electoral politics altogether or simply against supporting the current two-party system? Those are distinctly different positions. From the text of that particular post, the most I can make out is that t is against the two-party system and views it as fundamentally broken (which is the position of many Occupiers as well).
I’m a little surprised that Emma Goldman supported electoral politics period. I always thought of her as more of a “propaganda of the deed” sort. Which party did she support, and when? I’m sort of curious.
Well, you either accept the two party system, or change the Constitution. So imo when you reject the two party system, you’re rejecting electoral politics in America.
Anyway, Emma Goldman didn’t support a particular party, and she frequently did write with disdain towards electoral politics (which is why I don’t understand why Tarheel believes today’s times are any different than Goldman’s):
Nonetheless, per Wiki:
The times were different. The left wing in American politics had not been completely amputated by the Cold War. Eugene Debs and Norman Thomas were considered credible third-party candidates. There was movement during the Theodore Roosevelt era to rein in the trusts. There were huge marches by Suffragettes and labor in the streets. Union organizing was going on in most states. Civic action and civil society were more normal and hadn’t yet become “bowling alone”.
Other major difference. The Congress has never been this gridlocked for so long nor has the influence of money on public sentiment in elections been so large. Politics in Goldman’s day depended on patronage relations through political machines. Only in Chicago and Boston does anything like that sort of neighborhood system exist today.
In 1965, Strom Thurmond led segregationist Democrats into the Republican Party by morphing Barry Goldwater’s conservatism into a states rights defense. Any Republican born in the South and quite a few transplant politicians are at heart unrepentant segregationists. And the younger ones hate the federal government exactly because the federal government ended de jure segregation and for a time tried to stamp out de facto segregation in public facilities — like schools.
Ron Paul is a transplant to Texas from Michigan, which in the early 1960s was one of the epicenters of the John Birch Society. Paul’s anti-war stance is interesting in that Robert Welch of the John Birch Society opposed the war in Vietnam as “part of a communist plot aimed at taking over the United States. Welch demanded that the United States get out of Vietnam, thus aligning the Society with the far left.”
Ron Paul relocated to Texas in 1968 after finishing his tour with the Texas Air National Guard (1965-1968). [I find this little bit of trivia fascinating. How did a Pennsylvania native get into the Texas Air National Guard? Was his flight surgeon stint at a Texas air base?] And he represents a district in the Houston-Galveston area. And at some point became a Baptist (presumably now Southern Baptist).
Atlas Shrugged appeared when Paul was 22.
Ron Paul claims that his political philosophy comes from Friedrich Hayek and Ludwig von Mises. He also says that he came to his political philosophy while he was a medical resident in Detroit 1961-1963. Exactly the beginnings of the civil rights movement and the anxiety about Communism after the Bay of Pigs fiasco and the Cuban Missile Crisis. (The peak time of private fallout shelter construction)
As for this:
That was the position in the 1960s of Barry Goldwater, Lester Maddox, Stom Thurmond, George C. Wallace, James J. Kilpatrick and virtually all of the modern conservative movement. This was the defense of de facto segregation. States rights was the defense of de jure segregation (states can do what their “voters” tell them to–power to the people…).
Ron Paul is a racist because American society is racist, and Ron Paul doesn’t want to change that.
You don’t have to bring in StormFront or other organizations to tar him by association. Associating with the mainstream of the Republican Party is sufficient.
thanks for this
You don’t have to bring in StormFront or other organizations to tar him by association. Associating with the mainstream of the Republican Party is sufficient.
Just for clarity, would you extend this to include Libertarians too? Personally, for the most part I think of Libertarians as Republicans who don’t want to admit they supported Bush, but there are a few out there who’ve been consistent in their party identification (or in RP’s case, idealogical alignment), often taking care to distinguish themselves from Republicans.
I often wonder if this line about the Civil Rights Act infringing on personal and states’ rights and actually damaging race relations is really a dog whistle for bigots (as I’m sure it is in a great many instances) or if it’s a genuine Libertarian delusion. I mean, if you can look at the economic record of the last 30 years–particularly the last 12–and come to the conclusion that markets will regulate themselves to the benefit of all…what might you not believe?
Although as you’ve so ably pointed out, it really doesn’t matter what beliefs drive the ideology. The institution of American racism permeates everything, especially conservatism. Viewed in that light, it’s not so surprising that most people fail to recognize (or admit) to it; it’s like the water fish swim in, or the air we breathe. We don’t notice it unless it goes beyond a certain line.
Anyway, great post.
Libertarians, that is cap-L Libertarians, are so focused on economic libertarianism that most do not see the discrimination that their list of liberties would bring about absent a profound cultural change. Anti-discrimination laws are based on the knowledge that changes in behavior can change attitudes and beliefs. The old segregationist Democrats turned Republican are aware that this is true. That’s why they have worked very hard to frustrate those behavioral changes at every turn. It’s why they created segregation academies and began framing their views under the cloak of religious freedom. Cap-L Libertarians are more passive protectors of the status quo under arguments about liberty.
Small-l libertarians, like progressives, are all over the lot when it comes to dealing with the historically racist culture of the US.
Anti-discrimination laws are based on the knowledge that changes in behavior can change attitudes and beliefs.
I think that’s a crucial point of the matter. In the libertarian (big- and small-L) view, that behavioral change has already occurred and it’s safe for us all to do away with the supposed infringements on individual liberties created by the Civil Rights Act and other such legislation.
It’s not hard to see how this belief is faked on the one hand by the States’ Rights dog-whistlers, and genuinely held as true doctrine by at least a certain portion of the rank and file. And thus, as you state:
Libertarians, that is cap-L Libertarians, are so focused on economic libertarianism that most do not see the discrimination that their list of liberties would bring about absent a profound cultural change.
Obviously it’s possible to sincerely believe this way. It’s like communists and Marxists saying their system never really got a fair shake because it was never attempted in its pure form. Likewise we have the promotion of some Austrian Neverneverland based on a selective reading of Adam Smith and god only knows what.
I get how some youth can get pulled into this sort of thing, but the appeal is such a black-and-white, zero-sum sort of mentality that I wonder at the number of grown and in many cases seemingly rational adults swallowing the bait too. It probably is a reflection of the infantile nature of the culture as a whole. As usual, I find myself grasping at straws of a larger picture that I can’t quite fit into one frame.