This is my first diary.
I had a hard time finding a title for this article, so I hope the one I have chosen is appropriate.
I have spent the last month or so perusing conservative diaries as well as liberal ones and this is what I have seen. Both sides seem to have the same deep resentment (hate) for each other and accuse the other side of the same thing on the same issues. Both sides descend to horrible, hateful, profane language to espouse their points. Both sides attack others on their sites that do not conform to the accepted position for that site.
I find this very troubling and decided that I would (gasp) register and post comments trying to show the liberal point of view as equally valid as their own position, without name calling or profanity, which I detest in particular.
So far I have not been banned and I have only seen one case of banning and that was because the poster, a liberal, had made up a quote and attributed it to Bush. I have also had one person say they did not expect a liberal to have so balanced a point of view and then let it rest there, no troll rating, no ranting, no banishment, nothing.
Just remember that if you do get banned, messages will still stay up there, most sites do not have hidden comment capabilities, and in my experience do not remove comments they don’t like. So someone may see your comment and be changed by it and that is what we want and need.
You can announce that you are liberal or not as you choose, but I don’t really think it is necessary. Many conservatives have similar views on topics but are afraid to express them, I feel.
I have this constant feeling that we need to see each other, on both sides as individuals, not as parties. These individuals on both sides are living, working, teaching, policing, nurturing, preaching and healing those on the other side. Many families like mine are composed of both sides and while we did have a few tiffs over the election, we still would never call the members of our family not in agreement, murderers, evil, etc.
Our hope for the future will not be realized by the further education of liberals in positions they already have, but in converting the reds into blues, or at least purple.
Therefore I would suggest to you that more of us should undertake the effort of joining conservative site and I am going to recommend this one
http://www.theconservativevoice.com/modules/news/
as they have almost no comments but a lot of diaries. My hope is that if you do this you will be respectful to the sites you go to.
I also hope that both sides (red and blue)will go easier on their own members if they do not adopt the groupthink of the site. This is just causing further splintering. We don’t need any more division in this country than we already have, we need now to unite, not under one banner (which will never happen) but on issues that we all care about. Stop blaming and start framing. Reclaim this country.
Now I will take a deep breath, and push the post button.
Diane, this is an excellent subject to get your feet wet with. It especially resonates with me because I am a blue girl in a red state (Texas). Your diary reminds me somewhat of something I posted at Kos last week: “I’m tired of the Texas bashing.” It got awful there for a while. Yes, Texas is red, but some of her people are not, and the disrespect we get is appalling.
I think that for some on both sides, it’s difficult to understand that trashing a region – a red state, for blue folks, for example – does nothing to help our cause. It turns people (read: conservatives) off in a big way when they hear others (read: liberals) condemning and ridiculing their home. This furthers the conservative thinking that liberals are a bunch of rude assholes. Sure, Texas is red, but it wasn’t always this way….and if we want to change it, shouldn’t we be positive and helpful rather than insulting and pessimistic?
I am also a blue girl in a red family. Election year was very interesting for us. But, I am lucky in that my family as a whole is very open minded and we actually listen to each other. I worked on my mother for months, talking to her about Bush, his policies, and what he stands for in ways that she could understand. Your average American needs layman’s terms to comprehend this sort of thing. After many talks between us, she finally ‘got it’ and nearly had a heart attack when the realization of just what kind of man this is running this country hit her. I took my knowledge to everyone in my family. It didn’t work with everyone, but I am proud to say that my Republican mother and brother did not vote for Bush, but for Kerry.
We must come together. We need to understand each other better. The first and best way to get started is to open the lines of communication.
Thanks for this great diary, Diane!
I am so happy that you liked my diary especially since you were the one who inspired me to post one.
I’m going to use your comment as a tip jar, if you don’t mind. 😉
This is an excellent diary. What’s more, you’ve undertaken a tough task that requires a lot of patience and understanding. Keep us posted.
This is a terrific diary and no one would ever guess this is your first. The kind of diary for everyone to keep in mind and take a deep breath when thinking about posting to quickly.
A welcome voice and hope you post many more diaries here.
Thanks for “taking one for the team”, Diane. :-). In all seriousness, I appreciate your efforts in attempting to open the communication channels in a respectful, reasonable way. You’re right – I think most of us spend too much time preaching to the choir when we could be engaged in civil discourse with those of differing views. Some times I’ve been successful – other times, not so much – but either way, I remain civil.
I stress the word civil, because even on the same side of an issue, things can get far too ugly. I think back to the primaries, and the disrespectful fashion in which supporters of Candidate A posted highly inappopriate comments on the websites of Candidate B (or C, or D. . .) Completely counterproductive.
Congratulations on your first diary – nice job!
I do have to ask, which sites did you go to apart from the one you linked to? Every so often I dip into FR or LGF and I come away retching.
I will take the time over the next couple days to see how they receive me there and I’ll let you know.
This Conservative voice is the only site I have posted on thus far. Yesterday I signed up for yes, Free Republic, but so far have not posted. Not stong enough yet.
But in general I feel that what do we have to lose by posting and I want to stress that it must be done in a respectful way and not inflamatory, no matter how much you feel otherwise.
Remember, the red side feels equally repulsed by our side and there is the rub. We need to stress that a variety of opinions can be held without being a traitor or evil. I think blogs in some way have contributed to the division we are now seeing. My hope is to unite people, not sides.
Some people who are ready to jump ship on issues just need to know that liberals are not just a bunch of anti American people.
By the way this site
http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=7472
surely needs the reasoned voices found here, please visit site and add comments.
anything in the far north is worth discussing. (you have to read the grid idea to understand)
At the same time I do feel like they have been pissing in the pool and now we’re being asked to jump in though we can see that the pool water is now grape purple (I don’t know what color the chemical tag is…, tell me?)
Anycase, I’m probably not making sense anymore, so, good night.
I look forward to your reframing.
Original thinking is precisely what is needed most, and lacking the most, in the US at the moment. We are a nation obsessed with labelling, boxing, quantifying and polarizing everything, and we are all the poorer for it.
It’s great.
I admire your willingness to meet the conservative bloggers half way. I don’t think I would be capable of participating on one of their sites without losing it and insulting someone. What I imagine would make me lose it would be someone praising Bush and saying how great it is that he is bringing democracy to Iraq and bringing faith back to our country and pride back to our people. That sort of thing.
As someone who has been there, and lived to blog about it, do the conservative bloggers speak in that way about their current leader? If so, how do you hold your tongue? If not, how do they speak about him?
Well actually, they don’t talk all that much about Bush, they talk more about the issues but in the example below, the comments were related to Bush.
I swear they are just the reverse of liberals, i.e. they point to our leaders and us by extension with the same invective we use on their’s with the same attendant language.
Yes it is hard to hold my tounge, but I have made a decision to make an effort to state my case on these sites and to do it in the most effective way possible for me. That requires me to frame my response in a way that is non threatening but informative.
Here is an example of my comments from an article regarding the Saudis called “Covering for the Saudis” implying this administration was covering for them and the first reponse was to call the writer a traitor for questioning the great leader.
My first respone:
“”And to Demense above, FYI Mr. Bush and Ms, Rice are doing just fine aiding and abetting the enemy every day in every way, i.e. US polices in Iraq and elsewhere, so I’m sure the article writer above is pretty small potatoes in the grand scheme of things.
Conservatives need to wake up and smell the coffee before it is to late to change the direction this country is going in.
This country has done more to perpetuate the “war on terror” than al qaeda ever could on their own. By the way war on terror is a war on an ism, in case you didn’t know, so we are engaged with this great war on an ism.””
And below my response to “its only fair and right” to call such people traitors”:
“”Well no, its not fair and its not right regardless of what conservatives have been saying. The day we stop questioning the policies of this administration or any other, we are lost as a democracy.
The administration does not want anyone to question anything they do, but this does not make it right. In a time of war it is even more important to question. To call someone a traitor for questioning is a tactic used by those who do not wish truth to come out. I don’t care what party they are in.
May I remind you that this was the tactic used by Sadaam in Iraq, do we really want to follow that example.
I think that the fundamental right of a citizen in a democracy is to question the policies of that government. Remember this is a country of the people, by the people and for the people, not a country just for George Bush and the Republicans.
Tell me, if this was Clinton, would you feel the same blind loyalty to not question if you thought the policies were wrong. To silence the populace is to become, well you know, like the repressive governments around the world.
This “war on terror” as defined by this administration could go on for many years, are you saying that they should never be questioned for the duration, and subsequent administrations should also not be questioned regardless of which party is in power. That is starting to sound like a dictatorship, where disent is silenced. Perhaps you should rethink your position.””
How do you think I did?
I think you did great!
A+
I’m inspired and impressed, Diane.
Thanks for the diary and the link. I’ve been thinking that I need to understand the conservative viewpoint better (although I must admit not for such selfless reasons as you. I just wanted to be able to refute their arguments better.)
But I really appreciate the link too. Part of the problem is that I get so upset by the stuff on some conservative sites that I can’t bear to read them with any thoroughness. Thanks.
3/23/2005
Before this page falls off the radar, I wanted to post this additional dialogue I had on Conservative Voice site.
Comment:
“therein lies the problem – right and wrong do not exist in the liberal’s world: only relativism.
and the sad part (for the liberals) is that relativism is self-defeating – and they cannot, or will not, see it.”
And my response was:
Why is it that every comment you make is somehow turned to “liberals this or liberals that” with the most obnoxious add ons such as above, liberals do not know right from wrong. Liberals only think….etc.
Where do you get off saying that about a whole group of people. Do you think conservative are the only ones concerned about right and wrong or understand right and wrong. How pretentious of you. There was not even a mention of liberals in the article above that I could find, yet as always here is your remark castigating liberals. They used to say compassionate conservative, well I guess that doesn’t apply any more does it. And I would suggest to you that it seems like a lot of conservative in power are having trouble even thinking.
And the his comment
from a liberal presuppositional platform, how do you account for the existence of moral absolutes (right, wrong, good, bad, etc.) in an alleged world of purposelessness and meaninglessness?
a relativist can say that sexually abusing a baby is wrong too, because the law says it’s wrong – but, what if that law changes?
And my response:
Well if I get the drift of your question I would say that a liberal as well as a conservative would look for the moral answer to the question, not the lawful answer. Abusing a baby, whether a law said it was right or wrong would be morally wrong regardless. Because it is wrong to abuse anyone period. The larger answer would be God’s law of right and wrong and I think that has been put forth for us in the 10 commandments, which are used by both liberal and conservatives alike in establishing moral authority. I also would say that liberals are just as much God’s children as are conservatives and just as likely to follow the principles set forth in the commandments.
Branding a whole group of people one way or the other is unfair, just because they disagree on a point of view or a political candidate or a law.
I would prefer to see people discussing issues rather than coming from a perspective of you are wrong and we are right, or you do not know what is right only we do, or liberals do not know right from wrong.
I am sure both liberals and conservatives are very diverse within those groups so branding is just going to lead to more “us against them kind of thinking,” which is certainly not going to help this country.
Hope that answers your question.
His next comment:
I must admit, your response does not fit the contemporary liberal platform, to which the majority of my comments are addressed – assuming you are referring to the judeo-christian God.
And my answer:
“Yes I am referring to the Judean Christian God, however I must add there is only one God, not a group of Gods (in my opinion) and all believers of God seem to be referring to the same one. It is only in their practice or religion that we see the differences, but yet still it is the one God, is it not.
I don’t think my framing of this is any different than any other “liberals” would frame it from my perusal of the subject. That is why I wanted to bring this to your attention.
If you want to differ from a liberal in a discussion, please leave this out. Neither group is all right or all wrong or all good or all bad. Liberals used to be called Bleeding Heart Liberals, because they wanted to help people in programs such as Social Security or Welfare, etc. Now you are calling them devoid of the ability to know right from wrong and being without moral direction, this is simply not true on either side.
Please remember that a liberal may be your neighbor or your friend, your teacher or your policeman, etc. We are a country of both and we need to get along and try to understand each other.”
That is our strength, that is our salvation.”
You’re definitely holding your own, Diane, and are responding with well reasoned and thought out posts. I’m proud to be one of the liberals you’re speaking for.
Excellent response!
For saying exactly what I find myself saying over on DailyKos all the time.
This nation is divided—there’s no question about that. But there’s also no reason that it needs to stay that way. There are enough of us on both sides of the aisle that are smart enough to overcome our differences, and discuss issues calmly and clearly—even if we continue to discuss them passionately.
For those of you that post on DailyKos, you may know me as RFTR. Diane invited me over here to read her post, and to find a more tolerant environment than Kos. I hope I do.
And I hope I learn from all of you, and that you might be able to learn a thing or two from me.
For coming here and thanks for your comments. I sure hope the folks here treat you well and I think they will. Booman says he is open for all sides of issues to be aired here.
Please read my other diary too, Bush Contractor General, you may not like it as well as this one, but I would love to get your comments.
Yes lets work on bridging the gap.
And you should all read my blog, too. It won’t be nearly as congenial as I am here, but it’ll give you some insight into the conservative mind, I hope.
Thanks for a great diary. I had to read and run when I first saw it, – could just post “Wow!” but I’ve try to make up for it this time.
I went to hear Pat Buchanan last night – which was definitely an exercise in trying to understand the other side. I posted a diary about it that includes some resources for your dialog that you might find useful, if you haven’t already checked them out.
I absolutely agree with what you are trying to do with this. I love being able to converse online with like-minded folks – it helps keep me sane. But I do worry a lot about how polarized we’ve become and the “echo-chamber effect” on each side of the divide.
I’ve been working on a face-to-face version of this. To not be afraid to speak up about political issues with people I know to have basically conservative views. It’s hard. There’s that instinctive conflict avoidance reflex, the upbringing that taught not to discuss sex, religion, or politics in polite company, the way “liberal” had been demonized to the point that I sometimes feel that declaring my openly liberal views will result in someone judging me harshly. But I’m getting over it, and working on how to have these discussions in a civil, productive way.
The best advice I heard (over at Kos) was – state your position clearly and civilly, be respectful in your manner, and then walk away. Don’t insist on agreement, give the other person time to mull it over. It sounds like you’ve been applying this already.
for your response.
I have a hint on how to talk to conservatives in blogs. This is what I do, I try to frame my response from a moderate point of view, rather than as a liberal.
That helps me to speak as if I was one of them, fringe maybe, but still with a voice to point out inconstiencies in the whole thought process which then really takes it outside of the framework of which side you are on.
Hey, I’m an American, and that is what I am speaking to, other Americans, so I have a right, nay a duty to speak, and the choir already knows the song all too well……..
So we all have something in common, right or left and that is this country and our hopes and dreams for it.
I have a hope that reasoned thinking outside of the “party box” will appeal to all, agreeing or not. There is always the chance that someone will read and be nudged a little bit by my words into a moderate postion, from which something can really be done.
I do not like extremisn in either party. I hope you will read and comment on my new diary “Is Schiavo issue fracturing both parties.
One of the things I most admired in Clinton was the way he brought all of the major issues to the center and tried to include a little bit for each side in solutions.
The Repubs hated that I think, because he stole their thunder and they had to resort to extreme measures in order to silence him or stop him or render him impotent.
This is all very involved and difficult to articulate. I hope I have made some sense at least.
I certainly enjoy this dialogue on the subject and would welcome more from you, so write back here if you like and we can continue this conversation.
I think I have already commented on your diary, did you see my post.
I can’t do the conversation in face to face however, as in Rep part of family, as we already went through such trauma pre election, which pretty much silenced all political debate.
our comments. I think you were commenting on mine at the same time I was commenting on yours. 🙂
Looking forward to reading your latest, and I will get back to you, but I must sleep now. Been running on 5-6 hours/night all week and I am not one of those people who doesn’t need much sleep.