First this item that got me started…
Odyssey Sirens ‘were monk seals’
A German scientist claims to have found the Sirens of the Greek myth of Odysseus, who lured ships onto the rocks with their song: they are, in fact, monk seals.
Karl-Heinz Frommolt, head of the Achieve [ED. Archive?] of Animal Sounds at the Humboldt Museum in Germany, believes he has identified the Sirens’ lair on the Li Galli islands, off Sorrento on Italy’s Amalfi coast. The island is known as Le Sirenuse, the Island of the Sirens.
His team identified a configuration of rocks which amplifies sound coming from the island. However, tests showed a human voice could not reach far enough out to sea – whereas a moaning monk seal’s could.
I have problems with links, sorry.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4559217.stm
the meat course follows below…
This little story about the Sirens reminds me that almost all mythology is probably based on our tendency to anthropomorphise events and phenomena, that cannot be understood with the knowledge extant at the time of the experience.
We always seek a `rational’ explanation, and where none exists, we make one up.
The ‘created’ explanation becomes part of the belief system when it is mythologized, ie when the event or phenomenon no longer exists, only the explanation.
It seems irrational not to eat the meat of the pig, when other forms of meat are consumed.
It seems irrational to wrap the hair in a turban at all times.
It seems irrational to avoid walking under ladders.
But there was surely a major event in the history of the culture that proscribed a change in behaviour thereafter. Pigs may have `amplified’ diseases by being the only animals of the time to be kept in close confinement. Those diseases may have decimated the society: and pigs become taboo. Long hair may have been a restriction in combat. Ladders may have been more dangerous places in a society with poor tools and no safety laws.
Other `myths’ are merely cultural remnants, the origins of which are no longer important. The Spanish lisp today. It is an affectation. They once had a King who lisped. His whole court adopted lisping in order to conceal the King’s disability. We wear a black tuxedo today because a rebellious young Beau wanted to shock the peacock-attired fashionistas of his time by appearing at a ball in no-colour attire. The next ball everyone had copied him, and so do we still today. The sacred executive tie is a fossilized neckerchief of authority. It serves no other purpose. The only way you could improve on the design of a tie is to get rid of it, unlike most other apparel.
Some cultural knowledge emerges slowly, rather than by cataclysmic event. In ages when there was a lot more time for the study of the workings of Nature, in ages when Arabs founded the Science of Astronomy strictly by generations of observations and few tools to assist, in ages when boreal hunter-gatherers discovered that the forest is a super-animal with everything intertwined, science was an accumulation of repeated observations, an experiment (passed on from generation to generation) without a theory.
Those island dwellers, living around the source of the Indonesian Tsunami, that fled to high land when they saw the sea rapidly receding, did so because of an ancient belief that such a sign would be followed by giant waves. It must have happened many times over many generations for the connection to be made, and become lore.
These observations over time became pre-science belief systems. The proto-Finns came to worship Tapio, the spirit of the forest that kept them alive. Even a few decades ago, the older foresters would still apologize to a tree before felling it. The act of not appreciating the tree had become taboo. They discovered stewardship long before the Greens.
Similar cultural observations over generations include, as examples, the taboo on incest found in most societies. Without knowing anything of DNA, the effects of a small gene pool were mundanely clear to these early societies.
Some people have said that a 7 year old today knows more than a 7 year old, 200 years ago, I don’t agree. The human brain hasn’t changed – even with a better diet. It still forms neural networks at the same speed, and pulses at the same speed. The 7 yr old brain today may `see’ a lot more different things, but the `understanding level’ (making sense of what it sees) is equal. Where one brain focused on the shimmering of the lake, the brush of wind through the leaves, the ever-changing sculpture of the clouds, the youthful brain of today focuses on the shimmering of the TV, the wind of the other media and the ever-changing sculpture of data. It is the same thing. We may be smarter, but we are not wiser.
Certainly we are no wiser in understanding the false mythology of political/religious republicanism as practiced by Bush & Co. They have indeed exploited a series of myths to achieve and hold their position, just as Hitler exploited the Thule/Arayan mythology for his own ends. He even sent his top radar scientists off to prove the Earth was concave at one crucial moment.
The only justification they have for what they do – knowing full well its human consequences and sacrifices – is that the sustaining myth is more important than reality. The `sacred mission’, the `crusade’, the sense of destiny appointed; these are all the hallmarks of the Tyrants – of people who are anti-science, and thus anti-knowledge. The pure scientists, of all disciplines, are the diplomats of this world, bargaining facts, experiments and theories into an ever-incomplete pattern of the way everything is affected by everything else. Life is diplomacy. Negotiating with everything around us to achieve stasis or balance, is what most people do.
That is why most people accept the status quo, as long as it does not impinge too deeply on their everyday lives. And why most people buy into the mythology, because basically they have never thought about `why’. Why do I wear a tie? Doesn’t the government always know what it is doing? Isn’t it dangerous to question God?
The word `god’ in fact is a useful title for a whole range of things that we still don’t understand about ourselves, and the world we live in. There is an entire cosmos of logic that our tiny brains will probably never be smart enough to understand.
But the Bushian mythology is easier to understand with hard fact. And it must be exposed by an accumulation of observed public facts, until the astronomy reveals a pattern that reveals the true nature of the mythology to everybody.
That was certainly a nice read on a lovely Sunday afternoon. Smoothly flowing, with a well-executed bend in the river midway . . . (Yessiree, keep your bucket of cold water at the ready :^)
And that’s where we enter the land of secrecy within this administration. When information isn’t shared across the aisle – let alone among us commoners – how can people question what they do not know? Unless, of course, more people start digging in dumpsters. (I just had to get that not-so-subtle connection in there)
Thanks for writing this; it offered a nice change of pace.
If I had the time to do the research, I’d probably write more political pieces here, with a European or even Nordic slant.
But I don’t have the time – so either I just comment, or then I have these more philosophical ideas floating around, which either come together into articles published elsewhere, or they remain as sketches for future articles which might camp out here for a while as small diaries.
This place, I have found, is a good stimulation for lateral thinking. I know my few diaries wander way off message, but sometimes a step back from the fray could be helpful – at least I hope so.
And why is it you choose to publish said articles “elsewhere”? You, my friend, are a lateral stimulation Robin Hood – stealing from the rich – and taking your accumulated treasures to that land of elsewhere you speak of.
“Don’t have time”, my foot. You have enough time for Elsewhere! (dramatically grabs a tissue)
But seriously, it was a genuine pleasure to read a thought-provoking diary, unfettered of angst and/or anger.
Elsewhere is (oh God, this is where I get rumbled and tumbled) mainstream and not so mainstream media, where they pay by the word. It’s part of what I do to keep the dumpsters from my door. (I’d already be up to 8 euros so far ‘elsewhere’) 😉
As long as you’re not one of the bad guys, over here doing research for the dark side.
If thyme and sage offered up a clue (rather than merely a pun), I’d gladly engage in culinary discourse. But speaking of Euros, I just blew the entire day away when I could ill afford to do so and I need to get back to the earning side of my life. And with that – it’s been a pleasure, sir.
Peace
I’m not a bad guy at all. If you are talking about NET, that was a total misunderstanding.
I am a media chappie, and therefore I have other professional reasons for understanding what these forums might mean – just as I track podcasting, viral marketing, gap-closing, disruptive technologies and lots of other things that I feel might affect the main industry that I am in. Just like Jerome and many others.
But what I say here is entirely personal, and being here is also. I had hoped that would be obvious.
As for cuisine, I do have sage and thyme in my vast collection of spices. Sage gets more usage. I specialise in all dishes east of Italy – mainly because few people can make comparisons, and therefore I can get away with gastronomic murder,
But actually the herbal reference was to Simon and Garfunkel, of whom I thought you may be familiar in a hippy-schmippy, you bet your sweet bippy kind of way.
Peace aussi
Cinnamon and cloves are spices for example.
Hmm, maybe you are a spy. 😉
True – but I always refer to my spice shelf . and pronounce herb with an aitch.
I call them ‘erbs when they are growing, but spices whene they are not, in much the same way we refer to meat.
Well yes, I was positioned here ready to chime in with my parsely and rosemary, but I chose to take the high road (for that one small moment in time)
Adieu
BTW Anom, don’t go digging in my dumpster, there’s all together too much conflicting trash which should have been sorted into recyclable piles long ago.
Though you are obviously no stranger to paradox or anomaly yourself, brother 😉
And that, my friend, is why I use shredders -literally and figuratively.
(psst. . .as long as you’ve outed yourself a bit here. . .I’ll let ya in on a little secret. . .I’m a sister. “Brotherhood” is just a lovely word.)
The great thing here is that gender is no issue in the debates. Perhaps I feel more at home because it is more like my Nordic environment 🙂
Anyway I hope you’ll forgive me for posting this diary after our ‘tacit agreement’. I am very happy – there have been a lot of really excellent points raised, that took my original rather aimless musings and extractd some real juice.
I was especially grateful for the book nominations.
See ya around sister!
Just dropped in for a “top ‘o the mornin'”, before I dive into my personal reality. (Every moment of stall time, is an extra moment of joy!)
I do appreciate that this site is gender neutral, so to speak. Quite candidly, there are other sites where I would have altered my writing style and presented myself as a male. Much like the financial industry in which I work, men tend to receive instant credibility on blogs, whereas women sometimes need to work a bit harder to earn the same level of credibility. Yes, that was highly generalized, and no, I’m not a feminist. (Quite old school, actually)
In line with your comments above, this site offers so much inspiration and so many treasures of perspective. It’s truly refreshing to participate in a community where all members and all viewpoints are treated with equal respect. There’s nothing to prove, just information to share among passionate folks.
Bright people, civil discourse, with diversity of knowledge and life experiences. Along with a proprietor who attracts and stimulates all of the above.
And with that – my stall alarm just went off, so it’s time for me to part. Good day!
I neglected to mention one little item. Your writing not only provided an immensely enjoyable read – it opened my mind to a different style of diarying (just deal with that fabricated word). Which, in turn, opened the prospects for my own expanded writing some time down the road.
Tacit agreements may not be as valuable as the knowledge one gains from the defector. . .traitor. . . turncoat. . . deserter. . . :^)
<sob> (the neglected genius finds reward)
It’s all about lateral thinking. I’m not an activist. But I dig the people here who are. But my support is not very useful on the day – maybe only in the long run.
As I’ve said elsewhere, I’m maybe an anarchist – in the old fashioned sense of the word, before hand-grenades were invented. I like to kick things, much as the old wheel tappers used to check train bogie wheels. I’m checking for faults.
It’s not the train journey that is important – it’s whether the system is safe wherever it wants to go. That may be nihilist in one sense – but it’s really the essence of philosophy. IMHO.
Nobody is paying attention any more to this diary, so I post a little entry just for you…
It’s an article I wrote a while back for a business magazine…
Passing the buck
So far, we have seen only the first skirmishes in the story of the battle between the Euro and the dollar. It promises to be a truly epic confrontation of `War & Peace’ proportions, starring Presidents, Sheikhs, Generals, and Commissioners. It may turn out, in the end, to be a cataclysmic shift in the world power structure.
The story begins with that old mystery of what that coloured piece of interwoven hemp fibres in your pocket really represents. It is a promise to pay the bearer. But on what is that value actually based? Up until 1971, you could have got solid gold for your dollar, theoretically. Then Richard Nixon took the dollar off the gold standard. Ever since, the dollar has been measured in oil, and all the old bullion has remained neatly stacked in Kentucky, Philadelphia, Denver, West Point and San Francisco. The world oil supply has been traded in dollars, making it the de facto world currency. Because energy is the lifeblood of growth, countries need dollars to buy energy, and also to pay off international debts. America can, and does, print dollars at will, thus controlling world trade, by using these dollars to buy goods and services all over the world – cheap.
The only way you could get your hands on the contents of Fort Knox these days, is by a mammoth scam. A former Scotland Yard forensic scientist was jailed for six years a few weeks ago, for attempting the biggest fraud the world has ever known. $2.5 trillion worth of fake US Treasury bonds, supposedly issued in 1934 by the US government for stirring rebellion in China, were said to have been lost in the Philippine jungle following a plane crash, held by tribesman for 60 years, and finally delivered to London. Had the bonds been real, the US Treasury would have been forced into a clear-out sale. Sadly, when the gang tried to pass off $25 million worth of the bonds at a Toronto bank in 2001, an observant Canadian Mountie (somewhat of an oxymoron) noticed that the bonds bore the word `dollar’ in the singular. Nice try, chaps. But their scam hardly compares to the dollar scam still going on.
By some estimates, the dollar is overvalued by 40%, which puts a huge weight on the US trade deficit. In Euroland, the deficits are minor by comparison and interest rates are higher. Europe is acquiring a greater share of world trade. In OPEC there is a move to trade oil in the Euro. There are even conspiracy theorists who believe that Iraq’s move to the Euro in 2000, for oil deals, was the root cause of their country being invaded by America – as a warning to others. We should note, in evidence, that Iraq oil will only be sold in dollars, once the pipelines to the harbours start to rumble again.
In the Middle East, Russia, Central Asia, and Africa, the battle for the Euro is in full swing. Iran, Malaysia and Indonesia seem very pro-Euro for oil pricing. If the Euro becomes established as a durable world currency, a global financial leverage against the dollar will be set in train. The global dollar is the soft underbelly of US power. With enough enemies – and the US is acquiring more every week – a concerted effort could bring down the whole fragile edifice. Not even the financially unsustainable US military-industrial complex could continue to rule, with the dollar demoted.
What is it going to mean to Northern Europe? For those of us with a strong Euro in our pocket, we will be able to buy much more abroad for our money. It will be harder to sell our more expensive products, but that will hasten even greater efficiency and our transition into a fully post-industrial economy. Our oil-based energy sources will be more secure. We will see a lot more trade with Russia and China. China, of course, means 2 billion consumers in an economy growing by leaps and bounds. I also believe that we will have a more honest dialogue with Islam, and thus perhaps avoid being targets for terrorism. But who knows, really?
All the main players in this coming revised world order, are very old civilisations that have donated to the world the very foundations of our society. Some have fallen by the wayside, but could flower again, as China is blossoming now. All of them increasingly resent the 230 years old upstart in the New World, with a Constitution written by slave owners. All of them hope that America will soon go home and put its own house in order, before lecturing to the rest of us.
The collapse of the dollar as a world currency would bring far-reaching changes in that society over the Atlantic, and, in fact, to Capitalism and the global monetary system. Northern Europeans have always looked after the weaker members of society. Now there is a chance that benevolence and fairness can be spread beyond our boundaries. At this point, I shall descend from my soapbox. I do not have an axe to grind; I am just an observer. However, recent European surveys that reveal a growing antagonism toward the US, placing both it and Israel at the top of the list as threats to world peace, certainly give pause for thought.
In spite of sending the article to yourself, I’m pretending it was intended for me. Your past comments, coupled with the safety analogy led me to believe that you and I shared the same industry. Because I too, am in the business of ensuring the safety of the railways – and on the alternate end, cleaning up the tracks after a derailment.
The following quote from Seymour Hersch caught my attention, and had me repositioning my portfolio to international holdings:
“Another salvation may be the economy. It’s going to go very bad, folks. You know, if you have not sold your stocks and bought property in Italy, you better do it quick. And the third thing is Europe — Europe is not going to tolerate us much longer. The rage there is enormous. I’m talking about our old-fashioned allies. We could see something there, collective action against us. Certainly, nobody — it’s going to be an awful lot of dancing on our graves as the dollar goes bad and everybody stops buying our bonds, our credit — our — we’re spending $2 billion a day to float the debt, and one of these days, the Japanese and the Russians, everybody is going to start buying oil in Euros instead of dollars. We’re going to see enormous panic here. But he could get through that. That will be another year, and the damage he’s going to do between then and now is enormous. We’re going to have some very bad months ahead.”
Thank you for yet another interesting read – I thoroughly enjoyed the European perspective. Please do share more writing – many of my friends are financial advisors, and they appreciate it when I share global perspectives with them that they’d otherwise miss.
And at this moment in time, I need to get back to cleaning up my current derailment.
Yes, it was for you, sibling.
Actually I have a foot in three camps – making me tripedal, and ideally suited for the tax haven of the Isle of Man 😉
One foot is in corporate communications (mostly hi-tech companies in Sweden/Finland). One as writer for niche (read ‘alternative’) mass media. One in organizational theory teaching.
You might say I’m a cyber-gypsy, and indeed I am having lunch today with a real gypsy. He is an ex-gangster, now on the local council.
Good morning compadre!
And again we find ourselves somewhat in alignment (although I lean more toward polydactylism). My big toe is in risk management, followed by arbitration, regulatory affairs, business practice development, group dynamics, coaching/training, business writing, investment fraud analysis. . .name it, and I’ll find a way to fill the void. (With a preference toward the small business sector vs. large corporations)
The company you keep sounds far more intriguing than my surroundings.
Aah the penny drops….now I realise who you are! Well I still read stuff over at NET, even if I can’t contribute. But I took Keith’s advice and found another forum. Here.
One of my business partners was into derivatives for many years, and he spent endless fruitless hours trying to explain them to me. I finally understood, but couldn’t see the point. But he’s an excellent numbers man, and that’s what we use him for 😉
So was my Dad a numbers man – a business doctor called in to revamp fading enterprises. Until his morals put him at odds with the local Masons and he was forced to leave the city. My suspicion of all cabals began there.
I’m missing something here. I publicly admit ignorance when I let you know that I’m not sure what you’re referring to when you mention “NET” and Keith. (And yes, I don’t get out much.)
Don’t be so sure about the penny dropping quite yet. The amusing part about my line of work is the fact that I suck at numbers. Royally. To the point where I get brain freezes when I attempt to add single digits in my head. (Figuring out tips is particularly grueling.) I find that portion of my work absolutely deplorable. At the moment, my typical day is 10-12 hours of legal defense letters on behalf of the number crunchers – so my writing leans toward the technical side of the aisle. (Another reason I found your diary so refreshing)
Okay – you really aroused my curiosity with the tale of the Masons. Do tell. And please share some moments from your lunch.
I thought you must be polydactyl (as you mentioned it) from New Euopean Times. Keith is the Welshman.
My father discovered that the Managing Director of one of the companies he was trying to rescue had embezzled. The man was a Mason. His fellow masons tried to hush it up. Dad wouldn’t agree. The put out a Fatwa on him – he spent the rest of his life teaching.
Lunch was small fried herring and mashed potatoes with the Gypsy and two young men from TV wanting to do a documentary on him. I was there to watch his back in a reversal of the usual roles. Being a warm day, the Gypsy had a short sleeved shirt on, so the multiple knife scars on his left forearm glistened in the sun.
I’m a bit claustrophobic and uncomfortable over here on the far right wing of things, so I’m carrying this forward with a new comment below. (Much more comfortable on the left) Look for me soon
And mythology can only become ensconced in public consciousness with the storytellers…or the equivalent here in the US might now be the MSM promoting the bushco myth-with a side of fundamentalist preachers, etc.
exactly!
Media now is totally a series of products for sale. The ‘product’ is a readership or viewership as a target group to be sold to advertisers.
The function of media companies is therefore not to produce ‘content’ any more, but to do whatever it takes to acquire a viable audience as a statistic. The media continue to profess that they serve content, of course, because otherwise people would expect to get the media for ‘free’, like their ads.
But it is no longer a case of “hey you are charging me for this plastic bag, but it has your logo on it. You should be paying me’. It should be *Plastic bags are a terrible waste of resources, I’m going back to carrying my own bag to the shops for the rest of my days’
If you get my analogy (and it is convoluted)
http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGBROS0E09E.html speaking of the mythology of bush this article shows that after 5 years now some people apparently still think the idiot has a real ranch and knows how to ride a horse.
He was given a hand made saddle that two people spent over 90 hours working on….the article goes on to state that no one knows what he might do with it at his ranch as he’s been called a ‘windshield rancher’ due to the fact he drives around his ‘ranch’ in his truck or golf cart..ha ha
What – so you’re the guy running around without a necktie…?
I like your thesis (ever read “Ulysses Found” – by Ernle Bradford?), perhaps science has just become the new mythology – in the sense of trying to explain things, rather than pertaining to dogma – which lies solely in the realm of religion.
The problem with science – and there are a lot (I’m not religious, but I won’t follow science on blind faith – drug companies – need I say more) – is that it is prone to the same sort of hierarchy that religion is. The good fortune is that it is dispersed among so many places that it needs to compete – though not necessarily for reasons of human advancement. It is selfish and doesn’t like to share – few stand out truly, but I think there is the greed factor, as with everything else.
And nature is often the one that pays the price.
That’s why I said ‘pure’ science. (implying ‘as opposed to applied science’)
I should obviously read Mr Bradford. (thank heavens that summer on the island is coming up, where reading in the shade on a rock in the Finnish archipelago while more industrious souls go fishing for supper, is one of life’s greatest pleasures)
I think my main point in this diary is that science accepts its imperfections, It is always a work in progress. Whereas those who live by mythological beliefs are essentially always locked in the past – in dogma, as you say.
Perhaps too, the questioning of those dogma may drive their believers into even greater blind adherence to them – for example the Vatican rejection of activist faith, where the do-good practical aspects of ministry (Jesus) are seen as a threat to the ritual mythological aspects (Paul). Or the Koran (a poetic and sensitive view of life generally) versus the exploitation of Submission (Islam) in regional power plays.
Sorry, I missed your meaning with pure, but I agree with you about Religion and the Vatican, especially when it comes to South America and Africa. Protestants have the luxury of inventing their own dogma as they go along – which may be more dangerous at least on a current political level. To be born again all you have to do is say so and voila, you suddenly have some sort of validation to your actions.
Indeed, all the main religions have at their heart a ‘rebirth/heaven scam’ – ‘use our system’ they say, ‘and ONLY our system, and we promise eternal life’.
They are the only ‘products’ that I know of, that threaten punishment for NOT using them.
The scam is that no-one can prove whether they work or not.
LOL – thanks for the laugh!
Psychiatric drugs (forgive – I get immense release bashing pharmaceuticals) and doctors that prescribe them will tell you a similar thing. If you don’t give your child this product (drugs that alter behavior patterns), he/she will not be “normal” until you do. So, until you do you are abusing you child.
The scary thing is that those that believe have all the “proof” they need.
So right you are. A friend of mine is a research scientist at a pharma company and he told me the general public would be aghast with the behind the scenes politics that goes on in withholding funding and research data. Funding that could have resulted in cures for deadly diseases. And research that has already proven successful in curing diseases, but will not be pursued because it was found to be lacking in profitability. Criminal behavior against mankind.
More than mythology. We have lost touch with our instincts.
The island people likely could read the waves and their instinctive
response was to run for higher ground. People on the other islands,
tourists and people in the tourist trade were mezmerized
by the incoming tsunami.
No, it wasn’t instinctive. I have read numerous reports that these survivors knew from their cultural mythology (although they had no personal experience of it) that the two events were interlinked.
.
by creve coeur Sun Dec 26th, 2004
by creve coeur Fri Dec 31st, 2004
by catnip Thu Dec 30th, 2004
by SusanHu Sat Jan 1st, 2005
by SusanHu Sun Jan 9th, 2005
Oui – Liberté – Egalité – Fraternité
thanks for the legwork, Oui – you are a pal
In their new book, WHEN THEY SEVERED EARTH FROM SKY, Elizabeth Wayland Barber and Paul T. Barber illustrate your premise with many entertaining tales from their researches.
But in the end the conclusion is flawed. Yes, many myths have basis in fact. Native Americans have been trying to get scholars to understand that for years, and here in far northern CA they’ve been fairly successful, at least in that geologists take their tales about earthquakes seriously.
But that’s only one part of myth. The sirens were a small event in a mythological tale of a culture hero. Myths express the values of a culture, they enact archetypal information, they probe the meaning of life. To continue calling the pattern of beliefs contrary to facts “myth” is to obscure what’s really going on. Yes,Bush gets away with untruths, but it is the story he’s telling that people want to believe, and that story is not dependent on any specific set of facts.
We learned this in Vietnam protests, when all the false facts were exposed, but it took a long time for people to give up the story they wanted to believe, and in some senses needed to believe.
Good! Another book for the summer…
Yes, of course people want and need to believe in something. Without too many life-sapping questions
But I’d like to hear more about what you think is obscured.
I believe Bush is driven by mythology, not facts.
Karen Armstrong’s The Battle for God about the rise of fundamentalism – not just Christian fundamentalism, but also Muslim and Jewish fundamentalism – trying to explain the psychological roots of why people embrace fundamentalism.
In her introduction, she discusses mythos and logos. As she explains it, in premodern times, people “evolved two ways of thinking, speaking, and acquiring knowledge. . . . In the premodern world, both mythos and logos were regarded as indispensable. Each would be impoverished without the other.”
She explains that mythos “provided people with a context that made sense of their everyday lives; it directed their attention to the eternal and the universal. It was also rooted in what we would call the unconscious mind. The various mythological stories, which were not intended to be taken literally, were an ancient form of psychology.”
Logos on the other hand “was the rational, pragmatic, and scientific thought that enabled men and women to function well in the world. We may have lost the sense of mythos in the West today, but we are very familiar with logos, which is the basis of our society.”
As a scientist, I’m a lot more comfortable with logos. But I think the ancients were probably on to something that we still crave. See spiderleaf’s diary on the GOP cult of personality.
When I heard Armstrong speak, she said that in the past, the Bible was always regarded as part of mythos – and that the idea of reading it for literal meaning was quite recent. Only since literacy became widespread and the masses could read it for themselves instead of hearing the stories of the Bible interpreted and explained (and often changed, to no one’s objection, since it was understood that the underlying meaning was the important thing, not the details) by preachers and teachers.
It seems the fundamentalists are missing the mythological point. By insisting that the Bible is literally true, they have robbed it of its mythos function. This may be one reason that it is in a sense unsatisfying, and they feel the need for a cult of personality to fill what is still missing, on an unconscious level.
Highly recommend that you put this book on your reading list, too.
Janet – if I was allowed fives you’d get one!
The mythos v logos insight, and the relationship with Fundamentalism makes a complex philosophical argument easily understandable.
I’ve always thought of the Bible as a kind of Reader’s Digest – a collection of writings from different angles. The 4 Gospels for example disagree about many ‘facts’ and interpretations of Jesus’ life.
The Bible, like many other religious texts which have been subsequently ‘commented’ and ‘interpreted’, have always been edited to suit the political power struggles of the age.
I refer you to Ricky Gervais’ stand up show ‘Animals’ for the latest interpretation of Genesis. I almost choked with laughter.
I have a lot of reading this summer – Thanks!
Yes, Karen Armstrong in A HISTORY OF GOD emphasizes the non-literal interpretation, too, as do most other experts and commentators. It goes along with a world view that is accessible to us but not dominant in our time and place.
But I’m not very convinced that the difference is literacy and that people read this stuff for themselves. I don’t know the answer but I’m inclined to believe that they’re being manipulated by interpreters, perhaps more interested in power than virtue.
Anyway the reason I started this reply was to ask you where your Thomas Pynchon quote is from? It’s a great one.
It’s plausible to me that the idea of Biblical literalism arose after widespread literacy. IIRC, (not a Christian, so this is just my memory of the history I learned long ago), Protestantism has as one of its fundamental tenets the rejection of official orders about what to believe – the freedom to determine what Christianity is on one’s own, without waiting for the Pope to decide it for you.
With that general philosophy, it was probably inevitable that some would, when they could finally read the Bible for themselves, decide that “their interpretation” was that what they were reading was a literal description of human history, God’s instructions to humanity, etc.
But of course, there are those who are happy to use that for their own political ends – this seems clear from which “literal truths” they choose to hammer constantly, while others are ignored. And they have lately refined that to a very sophisticated kind of manipulation.
I got the Pynchon quote from A.Word.A.Day. Google reveals that it’s from Gravity’s Rainbow.
I think that quote just summed up our so called news media.
Thanks for the citation on the Pynchon quote,which is the most profound idea I’ve come across recently, and one which all of us on the Internet as well as the dreaded MSM should think about…
Yes, I’m feeling my way into this topic, too, from a somewhat opposite background, having had a 12 year Catholic school education/indoctrination. We too heard that bit about Protestants free to interpret on their own, but I don’t buy it really. First of all, there were all kinds of interpretations—some of which became “heresies”, others new doctrines—before printing, and I have doubts just based on experience and observation that many people read the Bible without guidance from a preacher and congregation and community. But then, Karen Armstrong knows more about this than I ever will.
On the other hand, what of the unanimity of fundamentalist positions? They didn’t all come to those through a process of reading and consideration and then happened to all agree. Somebody reading ANYTHING and coming to an independent conclusion without reference to an ideological/professional/affinity group, a community of some kind, seems to me to be extremely rare.
10 years of catholic school here also, starting in kindergarten…but by the time I was in my late teens I’d given up on catholic indoctrination and also other religions. I think the ERA fight here in the US rather finished off the bible for me as that was used so extensively against ERA by the right/moral majority etc.
which is one reason I was hesitant to speak for Protestants. However, I think that there is a fundamental difference between the heresies of the time of Catholic hegemony before the Reformation and the core belief of most Protestant religions that each believer is allowed to come to her/his own interpretations.
The heretics were persecuted by their own religion (as heretics always are, by definition). Different interpretations and beliefs simply were not allowed, and many heretics were put to death for their heresy. It is a core belief of the Catholic Church that there is only one right set of beliefs (ultimately decided by the Pope when speaking ex cathedra) and that any deviation from these “official” beliefs will get you a place in hell. And in the past, burned at the stake to get you there faster – if you don’t recant.
On the other hand, many Protestant sects have as their main tenet that there are no “official” beliefs, that each person is required to study and think hard about the meaning of Christ’s teachings and come to their own conclusions.
That said, I think many Protestant churches do not live up to this. There is obviously a groupthink about what a “true Christian” believes in these types of churches and those who deviate are condemned – even expelled from their church for voting for Kerry, for example. But this doesn’t surprise me, since churches like these seem to have completely forsworn Christ’s actual teachings. (Inasmuch as we can know what they were, given the history of the New Testament.)
I’m an atheist lapsed Catholic myself, so I’m not speaking for any faith – but I do feel that Christian believers and I could get along very well if the would just follow the teachings of Jesus as I interpret them when I read the New Testament. I find that many of his words (if they really are his) have a lot of wisdom in them and I embrace them as well as I can in my own life, seeing him as a philosopher rather than God.
Yes, but why? Look at the groups that are fundamentalist. We can look at the 911 bombers, the Christian fundamentalists, the Taliban – and they all share economic hardship, or poverty, and a feeling of injustice. These are people that are easily preyed upon with mythology because they need meaning – a cultural identity if you will. With the passage of time, if their lives fail to improve, this fanatic ideology will only escalate and create an even greater divide. There are a few who aren’t, true, that do have “successful” lives and dwell on moral ideology, but for the most part these aren’t the ones that are stirred into action. Jewish fundamentalism is more complex, much of it having to do with Israel.
Take the most extreme case (in our eyes) – the 911 bombers – and you will also find the most blatantly skewed distribution of wealth. In the US wealth is skewed as well, but with its well-marketed Capitalist propaganda and an enormous distance between the wealthy who like their isolation, and the poor, it is not so obvious. What is obvious are the church leaders who give them the time of day.
Though I might be reading this out of context, I’m not so sure this argument bears weight in the Middle Ages, where religious fundamentalism was ripe. A time that suffered drought, war, disease, witch hunts, economic hardships etc…
Today the version of the Bible is also an important factor – the Old Testament is a loaded gun for those who take things literally, which is easy to do where there is little education. The New Testament is about Christ, and tried to distance itself from teachings that were not of Christ.
Prey to a mythology? I think we’re still talking about myth in different ways here. There’s the camp that uses “myth” to mean “pattern of lies exploiting ignorance to manipulate people” (I made that up, but you get my meaning) and there are others who use it in the Joseph Campbell/Carl Jung/Hillman/Moore etc. sense of deep stories that organize a culture’s view of itself, its origins, meaning and values (I made that up too, so don’t blame those guys I named.)
If you go with the Campbell definition, which is the classic one, then we all live by myths. Few people take the mythic stories literally except as stories, the way you “believe” Star Wars. And in primal societies, there was seldom a serious conflict between myth and what we would call “scientific” thinking—that is, conclusions based on observation, experience, experimentation of a kind. Hunters may have believed that their pure thoughts and behavior made a difference in whether they got game or not. But they used the latest spear points too. They went hunting where they had observed their prey going, etc.
So in terms of today, yes, the Taliban etc. use powerful explanations for why they are oppressed, just as our leaders adapt powerful explanations for why they do what they do. There is truth and falsehood in both explanations, and we try to separate the truth from the falsehood.
Consciousness I guess you might say is partly a process of knowing what’s operating in your beliefs and decisions—and what’s appropriate.
Well, I’ve said too much and not enough. The point is that it’s not enough, and in a sense not accurate, to point out that something is a myth and therefore illegitimate, and think you’ve made an argument that is going to make a difference.
You’re right – I succumbed to interchanging religious extremism with mythology do to the flavor in this diary. Apologies – my point is when you look at religious extremists, there are other factors that drive people to extremism beyond their core beliefs, but I’m not trying to de-legitimize mythology. Nor am I trying to devalue what people believe – extremists run on hate and religion legitimizes their actions. The only way to calm extremists is by removing the factors that fuel their need for action.
read Karen Armstrong. I haven’t gotten very far through her book yet, but I did hear her speak on the topic last month, so I think I’ve gotten at least a superficial understanding of her points. (I’d like to get my understanding to a little deeper level is why I’m following up by reading the book.)
First of all, she says that fundamentalism is a fairly recent phenomenon – that it is not a return to the beliefs of former times, although most fundamentalists believe that it is. So the Middle Ages was not a fundamentalist time, in her view. I tend to find her argument credible since she has spent her life researching and writing on major world religions.
Secondly, she does see fundamentalism growing out of the roots of economic dislocation and change, as you point out, and that it arises from the difficulty of the transitions to modernism that began during the Industrial Revolution.
I’ve been wanting to do a diary about Armstrong’s thoughts on fundamentalism, but I’m kind of swamped right now by beginning teaching a very intensive 5-week anatomy and physiology course, so time is limited at the moment, and I’d like to get a little farther through her book before I tackle it. It is, however, a very important subject for all of us progressives.
hell, his(bush) story isn’t based on any facts. This sounds like a book that will have to go on my list.
It, and this diary are very good and lateral ways to extract dumpsterbunnies of enlightenment on how millions of people came to believe that a low level CIA asset and a handful of associated expendables, aided by a thrice-dead amputee composite character sidekick, were able to hold millions of people in utter thrall and suspension of all logic, humming along in lock dirge to the siren song of their magical evil powers and abilities to implode tall buildings with a single plane.
thanks for reminding me of ‘The Village’ I must re-rent.
Speaking of movies and myths, I thought the movie ‘Unbreakable’ with Bruce Willis was really underrated and plays into this whole myth theme/theory also.
And I should rent ‘The Village’ again, you’re right.
I’m very glad to see this diary hanging around for more discussion or insights into what other people are thinking or branching off into other areas…this has just turned into one cool thread.
Chocolate – I dunno. I am very happy with the response – super happy. And I sense that people here, while politically savvy, are also interested in the background to all this stuff – the context.
To be the Booman Tribune, this site has to be activist in intent. Wide-ranging – but still activist.
But I don’t think a philodsophical side track now and again is such a bad idea, or a dangerous one.
There’s always room for philosophical musings on any site – and likely most welcome on this one. (Many an old hippie in these here parts)
I doubt Booman minds, he did a diary on Nietzche not long ago.
I think to be in any way politically savvy, you have to have an underpinning of the history, background and philosophy of any issue. If you don’t then you’re just parroting other’s views and opinions on any given subject.
Yet another reason I enjoyed the diary – loved the originality!
It’s hard to catch up with you anomalous, so I thought I would jump in here and ask you to someday send me an email, I would love to have off line contact with you, you are such a special person.
What a lovely thing to say, Diane. Today has been nothing but one big s—fest for me from the moment I got out of bed, and you lifted my spirits from the brink of disaster.
I need to let you know upfront – you and I are very, very different in our boundaries. Whereas you seek to engage in many relationships offline, I’m an immensely guarded individual (to the point where I refuse all invitations for IM, because it feels as though I’m being cyberstalked – and that’s with my closest of friends and family members)
But thank you, my dear, for the thoughtful invitation. Bless your heart, and thanks for making my day.
Well I am glad that I helped you in some small way to feel better.
I respect your feelings about offline friends, I will ask no more, but if you should ever feel the need of a friend to rant or just talk with I am there.
That last comment to Chocolate didn’t count – I just felt compelled to respond as long as I bumped into it. (Then, of course, I needed a bit of time to sprinkle a 4 on top)
Ya know, it’s obvious we’re running into problems between our literal and metaphorical musings. Even as I typed the word polydactyl, I was thinking I had seen that user name here or elsewhere. But hey – if you get to use the word tripedal (paraphrasing the spelling a bit) I thought I could continue in that vein. And when you said you knew me, I thought you meant figuratively, as in you knew my line of work or had deduced the type of person I am based on my background. That took way too much energy. . .and I have so little to give. . .
Without even meeting him, I love your dad. Taking on the Masons is just way too good! When I worked for a Fortune 100 company, I too made a point of whistleblowing and pissing off the powers that be day in and day out – and documenting every conversation along the way. (So lacking is my trust, I still have copies of my phone logs going back to 1991 – and at one point I was advised to store my documents in a lock box, lest something should “happen” to me.)
Could never understand herring, but nor have I tried it. I grew up in a family of fisherman, so herring just look like bait to me. Sounds like you had an amazing lunch – and bless you for having the back of the non-corporate member of your party. (I mean that with the utmost sincerity)
And forgive me, but do tell. Did you behave in an improper fashion on another site, resulting in banishment? Doesn’t seem to fit the profile. (Welshman had me hook, line and sinker – in the early days of this site – when we simultaneously posted the same lyrics from a John Prine song, in response to a Kid O diary)
I was banished TWICE!
Faults on both sides, but i had no power to influence, so I lost. I can be provocative, but never rude. During a private conversation with the admin (initiated by him) I explained a bit about myself, rather sloppily, iincluding the fact that I was involved in a Dutch project studying Internet forums. It is called Global Connection, and is not yet published. Coupled with my known advertising connections, the admin had a flight of fantasy – assumed (quite bizarrely) that I was using their site as some kind of Brave New World guinea pig and trying to subsume him into it. At first I thought it was a joke. He rudely went public with his notions and pack mentality clicked in.
I was a guest in someone’s new ‘house’, so I have to accept their rules.
Here’s an executive summary of Global Connection FYI
Situation:
People who understand that trust is the basis to do businesses, and cooperation is the basis to create new business and opportunities – also invest their time connecting to others, building and deepening personal relationships by sharing their passion for ideas and
opportunities with new innovative products and services that better the world in some way or another.
Complication:
This is time consuming and is not suitable for many people, especially those with less outward personalities or communication skills.
Question:
Is there a tool that anyone can efficiently use whenever they want to connect with others, share passion, build trusting relationships and cooperation opportunities?
Answer:
Yes, The Global Connection is a self-organizing, self-regulating non-profit system (organization) of “connection points” in cities around the world that actively bring people together through social mobilization projects, that they design to better the world, increasing trust and cooperation between those involved. The projects it endorses focus on supporting the 4 columns of innovation: environment, freedom, creativity and education.
Ergo the organizational theory and communications. I have a deep passion surrounding the subject and I thank you very much for sharing this. I’m sorry to hear of your dual banishments. (If you were banished already, how did you get banished a second time? And why would you not just go back under another identity? And. . .and. . .)
Oh. My. Word. In response to your post, I just spent the last 45 minutes writing of my personal experiences in relation to your research. And when I hit the preview button, I found that I was not in a position to post it because when transferred to Word, the comments run Two. Full. Pages. With 8 point font.
If I’m able to rein myself in, I’ll share the key points. At the moment, it’s the story of my adult work life, the strength of relationships, the powerful force of collective minds and shared passion, this community at hand. . .coupled with my off the charts introversion and the impact of said introversion in various group environments. Unfortunately, it is not the stuff of diaries, and even if it were, in its current form it would far exceed the length of any diary I’ve read to date. So that, I fear, was a waste of 45 minutes.
It’s been a long roller coaster of a day.
champagne and sushi to celebrate the winning of a new client.
long business discussion with a young French MBA.
negotiations with a very funny industrial wireless director of marketing.
a look at a new documentary about Skema monks in Russia.
and then the DVD of Manchurian Candidate.
If someone says my full name, I may just do evil 😉
Nothing is ever a wasted. The 45 minutes did its job.
Top o’ the evening
Congratulations on the new client – always cause for celebration. How does one build their personal profile to end up with a day such as the one you just had? Good Lord – more activities in your one day than a typical year for me – and, um, I must admit – far more fascinating at that.
Apparently the champagne or the sushi have gotten the better of you. Because I fail to see the rewards of the 45 minutes of writing and subsequent two page document sitting dead in the water.
It just occurred to me that I sometimes lean toward isolated, personal paradigms. (While not so much so in the work arena.) Thank you for waking me up to that fact. Not too shabby – a man doing his work as he sleeps.
Last night I watched a little Cspan2 on cloture vote for Bolton – for the first time. I probably won’t do it again as it is much faster and more efficient to read the precis here
I always think that the externalising of thoughts – ie getting them from brain to paper, or ‘fixing’ them in serial form, helps to bypass the endless parallel brain processing that makes us sometimes indecisive.
I sometimes make decisions (if I can’t solve them by logic) by writing all plus factors in one column and negative factors in the other. The longest column wins.
Not Voldemort or Beetlejuice, but perhaps Enoch?
I’m never too proud to admit that I’m not all knowing. In that vein, I had to look up “precis” and Enoch. The second of which landed me at a very unusual website about The Academy for Future Science and the Keys of Enoch (still not clear on the entity as it relates to your comment, however).
By nature, I live by comparative studies of all sorts, and out of necessity I live by comparative lists – as they serve to create the foundation for the work I conduct. (Pros, Cons and mitigating circumstances)
In reference to my writing yesterday – I merely have to alter the purpose. The original intent was to share personal observations/experiences with you to support your study (given my passion surrounding the subject, and that “team-player” part of me that wanted to help you with your work (which also could be viewed as “suck-up”, I guess). You’re obviously doing quite fine on your own – and when I revisited the document I discovered it had the makings of a dozen different diaries – depending on the paths I choose to follow. All I needed was that little nudge to realize my work was far from being for naught.
I could post a diary about self organizing systems – but it has been up at NET before my banishment (not sure of the ettiquette of doing that)
BTW I did return under new nick to NET, but someone obvoously had a fix on either the IP address of just the fact that, as the only Scandinavian, I stuck out like a sore moose. Hence Exile II.
Enoch = ‘He who walked with God’. There are two of them, Methusulah’s daddy and an earlier one. I was referring to the most ancient. Enoch got edited out of the Bible early on (obviously, since claiming to be on intimate terms with the Boss is a bit much) I’m hoping that when the Dead Sea Scrolls are finally all translated and published, we’ll find out who he was. But he sounds a bit like Dick Cheney to me….
I am looking forward greatly to your 12 diaries with fully annotated Pros and Cons and mitigations 😉
BTW I’m a sucker for sucking up
I hope we are not found one day deceased in an old abandoned diary, where no-one had thought to check for life in weeks.
I can hear the eulogies now. They were quiet folks – Sven and Anom. Kept to themselves much of the time. (Oh wait – that’s what they say about serial killers. . .hmm. . .)
I think it will be time to move on when we once again find ourselves over on the far right edge of things. Thanks much for the background of Enoch – will look into him further as time allows. I also did a drive by through NET, and flagged it for future viewing. Didn’t feel so bad about my ignorance when I noticed there were only 100+ members.
I likely won’t be writing any diaries for now – I merely identified the potential contained within the writing. I recalled your comment that Ducky’s diary gave you the inspiration to pursue the Bush mythologically angle. And looking at my writing, with your comment in mind, I realized that you can take any thought, and any piece of writing, and use it as a starting point of any subject desired. So that concept alone has enhanced my personal perception of things, and I thank you for that. (One of those things that’s laughably obvious to most, but apparently not so much for me)
In the meantime, I’m genuinely interested in your study. So much of the executive summary struck a personal chord. So, consider the offer to contribute out there. (And I certainly won’t be crushed should you choose to decline said generous, heartfelt, gracious, selfless proposition :^) Seriously – just throwing it out there because it’s Friday afternoon, I’m having a good day after a crappy week, and I felt like being a cooperative little community member.
I’m quite busy this weekend, but I’ll attempt to post something on SOS (self organizing systems) maybe Sunday.
Our Global Connection is a cross-fertilization of a long extant concept for an international network forum for altruistic problem-solving, combined with the OpenBC (Open business club) which is a purely business contacts network popular in Europe.
The basic idea is, that a multidisciplinary forum could be used to solve ‘small’ problems around the world – based on what used to be called OR or operational research (WWII). One of the principles of OR is that it is the insight of different systems experts working together that can produce ‘original’ solutions.
Here’s a very simple example; in remote South African villages without electrical power, but with water collection problems, they have come up with a solution that engineers alone may not have solved. They build a deep well, top it with a kid’s merry-go-round, and above that a water tank. The kid’s have fun pushing the merry-go-round (the sort you jump on after you’ve got it moving) and meanwhile it is pulling up water into the tank for later use.
The original OR teams would combine, for instance, botanists, mathematicians, artists, astronomers, engineers, sociologists, logistics experts etc etc. Each member of the team would have different insights gained from the study of the rules and organization of their own systems/disciplines – thus increasing the possibility for lateral thinking and lateral solutions.
The world networked version of OR – the Global Connection, would do this on a much larger scale, thus spreading the load of problem-solving over thousands of contributors.
It is also based on the idea that most people are enormously creative, but are locked into jobs or work that does not allow their full creative powers to be expressed. The Global Connection would be an ‘outlet’ for those frustrations, with its own altruistic reward.
If solutions produced monetary reward via patents, copyrights etc, that money would be held by Global Connection, not individuals. However, using a knowledge management system, which tracks the contributions of individuals to a particular problem solution, it would be possible for the ‘solvers’ to decide how such monies would be re-invested within Global Connection..
Tremendously interesting. Hats off to the founders and contributors. And I thank you for taking the time to share so much information (while presenting it in such a way that it required little effort to understand). Is your participation in sites such as this a means to cull additional resources? (There are obviously so many creative people of diverse backgrounds out there who would jump at the chance to contribute to the efforts of your organization.)
It appears I misunderstood the purpose of the executive summary, in that I thought it was the foundation of a research study, vs. the global expansion of an existing entity.
Have a great weekend! Good bye
The whole thing came out of some research into potential electronic national voting systems (research which still continues).
My contributions here (or at any of the other forums I visit) have nothing directly to do with Global Connection except as far as you can personally get a ‘feel’ for the interplay between people who don’t know each other.
We’ve got far more than the exec summary at the moment of course, but sadly I’m not at liberty to divulge any more at the moment. We have a Scandinavian founding committee which is a strange mixture of advertising people and academicians (in Helsinki), and another one in Holland which is more IT and statistician based.
The next step is funding. I don’t see it launching till next year. I don’t have any doubts that there will be thousands of willing contributors around the world. I DO have doubts that we can keep it altruistic. That is why it has to be set up very intelligently at the beginning to avoid its later exploitation. The only way I can see this happening is if it is self-organizing in such a way that no individual or sub-group can influence it.
We would also like it to be Open-Source software, so other people can set up similar ‘Connections’ – in much the same way that these forums like Kos, Bootrib, and MyDD proliferate to accomodate different worldviews.
Who is going to fund it? We are still discussing. EU funding is possible, and commercial funding is not out of the question. But with huge risks.
Should you so desire, I think it best – under the circumstances – that you write a diary on the subject. In that forum, you’ll likely receive highly articulate suggestions from very knowledgeable community members – presented far more articulately than my musings and tapping into resources of far more people than may be reading these “off-the-beaten-path” discussions we’ve been engaged in.
Farewell, and I look forward to seeing the results of your efforts.