The pie-crap has hit a core issue with me and, by all the diaries, I would guess it does with most people.
Sex should not be such a trigger flash point. It should not cause such rifts, but it does. And why is that?
I blame it on society’s religion-trap, at least in the beginning- damn Adam and Eve, the snake and the apple-temptation. How did the natural human-animal act of sex become so distorted and ruined and exploited?
MEN. Self-righteous men over the centuries have taken it upon themselves to take control of everything.
(I use MEN because Jesus, God etc., the bosses have been all depicted as men.)
Since we have all been born some man, preacher, father, president, boss has been ‘in charge’ of how one is to live.
Unfortunately many ‘sick’ men have had the privilege of being on top, writing the rules, changing the rules, making the rules etc., etc.
Depending on who your dad is/was, what religion, which class blah blah blah one grew up in often determinies a human’s sexual identity. I’m not talking male or female here. I’m talking about how one identifes with their sexuality. Was it taboo growing up? Was it treated naturally? Did you grow up in a nudist colony?
Did you have a happy introduction to the act of sex? Did it get marred by incest, abuse, rape punishment?
I dare say each of us has several negative connotations connected to our sexual experiences. So take one’s sexual experiences and pile on the sex-for-money society, exploitations, pornography- all distortions of a natural act and what do we have?
A world full of sexually disturbed human beings.
I think we all know what sex is suppose to be, but by all the comments we see because of all our sexual experiences- good and bad- there will never be a big enough political-tent to accomodate everyone.
The in-fighting over sex will not bring any of us a political victory in any political party. It shouldn’t even be considered a wedge issue. Because it is like eating, shitting and breathing- a natural function.
We all fuck and we’ve all been fucked and we need to get over it. But damn it strikes a chord…but political? Not in my opinion. And sex-sell-ads should not be on a political site.
I consider myself very liberal, but that DOES not mean that Everything is OKay to do and I think that many so called Liberal Democrats, think that that includes sexual perversions, exploitation etc.,
Where do we draw the sex line? Forget about the male and female side of it. This is not about politics. Think about the right or wrong of it. And some things are just wrong.
The Golden Rule- do unto others… is my basis.
Like religion/spirituality, sex is personal and should be separate from politics…is what I mean.
Hooooo Laaawwwd rosee,,,you go girl ; )
LMAO, who’d a thunk a cream pie would stir such a wild fire, but I believe it was time.
Do you remember when I said Kos was getting too big for it’s britches? Well, the pie busted the button on the waist band, all the lil’ pricks showed themselves.
Ya know, like I said earlier, sometimes power encourages ego, and like in so many cases, ego exceeds IQ ; )
Good to see you toss your 2 cents in again, and glad to see your fire burn bright.
I think the frame to put it in for men is imagine yourself in the same or similar situation.
Example: Instead of Mary Ann and Ginger, imagine Troy Donahue and Steve Reeves (the star of cheesy Hercules epics in the 60’s) frolicking homoerotically in whipped cream, their butt cracks showing, while a series of female (or gay male to up the ante a bit) commentators said “what’s the big deal?” and “Don’t be so politically correct, its only an ad forchristsakes!”
It is always difficult to walk in the shoes of others, but that is the first step to understanding their beliefs, their emotions, their reactions, their behavior. I realize empathy is not a skill boys and men are taught very often, but its one that would do them a world of good to learn.
However, those who found it a free speech issue won’t bite that bait. Unless they were homophobic or something.
I was more trying to address the respect issue. Many people tend to disrespect the views of people they disagree with, rather than attempt to understand the basis for that belief. At the end of the day you may still disagree, but basic respect for others suggests to me that one at least make the attempt to empathize with the other person’s point of view on any issue.
From a first amendment standpoint, I don’t want the Government telling me what I can and cannot do in terms of what I read or publish, even if that material may be considered offensive by some. However, I have no objection with individuals expressing themselves about the choices I make. That is their right. Unless the women who were offended by the ad were calling for a government ban on such advertising, I don’t see how the first amendment comes into play here.
I’ve had a thought bubbling up for a few days and your comment finally surfaced it, Stephen. So thanks! My thought. . .which you actually might be able to answer, being of the male persuasion and all. . .is that to judge from reading the stuff over at Kos it would appear that the problem with saying to a lot of those guys, “How would you feel if. . .” is that it wouldn’t bother them. They literally can’t empathize because the reverse situation. . .the idea of bulging guys in Speedos. . .doesn’t seem to push any buttons with them.
Are they kidding themselves? Cause if they’re not, or at least some of them aren’t, then that’s a futile line of argument for us.
But even that is not really my point, I guess. Jeez, well, what IS your point, Kansas?? Okay, okay. My thought is that there’s a position beyond empathy (since a lot of people don’t have a talent for empathy or any desire to feel it), and that position is simply taking somebody else’s word for something and respecting their wishes. As in, “That ad really bothers you that much? Well, I don’t get it, but I love you and I don’t want anything as stupid as an ad to get in the way of our friendship, so sure, I’d be happy to take it down.” And then he might add, “But after I do, can we talk about it?”
I think they all should have a daughter. Unless you are completely psychotic you realize that a world that dehumanizes and objectifies women is not one you want your daughter to grow up in. Sometimes it takes a personal connection like that to break through. I know I always considered myself fairly respectful of women’s demands for equality, etc. but emotionally it really only hit me after my daughter was born. Call me shallow perhaps, but that did make it much more of a concern for me.
As for the speedos, I don’t know, but if there was a sudden influx of soft core gay porn ads, I’m sure you’d have a number of men screaming to remove them as being offensive. Actually what they would say might be fairly homophobic lol.
Have you noticed the ones who say they do have daughters and yet they still don’t get it? I feel sorry for their daughters.
Well that’s a shame. But yes, there probably are a lot of fathers like that. Maybe they just haven’t taken the time to fully consider the logical conclusion of such beliefs. Or maybe they are intellectually dishonest or just lazy.
Men wouldn’t get it…they would just NEVER get it.
They don’t have the years and years of piled-up misogyny and sexism to carry that we do. They haven’t been victimized on par with women based on nothing more than their gender, so they don’t know what it’s like to live with those scars (and men who have been sexually victimized themselves are typically victimized by other men, so even they wouldn’t understand the gender issues involved in living with it and moving on, though they could certainly relate to the victimization aspect).
get it.
And some of us HAVE been victimized by women.
True enough.
There are male victims of sexual abuse by women, which seems to be rather rare (but which may seem that way due to underreporting, a problem will all forms of sexual abuse or assault). They may somewhat understand but still, I think, wouldn’t get what it’s like living as the oppressed gender day-to-day (unless they are oppressed as some other minority group as well, such as one based on race or sexual orientation).
The Pie ads are not about “sex,” Rose.
It’s about the subjugation/degradation of women & male gaze.
http://about-face.org/goo/
No, it doesn’t belong on a so-called “progressive” portal–ethically speaking.
Two women (touted as bi or as lesbians) “competing” for men’s adolation?
Methinks not!
Yes, Kos owns the portal, but the downside is that he’s harming his credibility (although, he might be rubbing his hands in glee at this time re: additional traffic).
I refuse to drive any traffic to him, nor to click-thru the Pie ad.
He is perfectly capable to find more progressive ethical advertisers, but has chosen not to do so (and is quite defensive about it–Kos’s arrogance is astounding).
I genuinely hope that Kos never becomes a parent, as I perceive him as totally unfit–his misogyny reeks.
‘Nuff said.
Short term “gain”–long term pain.
he is a parent. He’s married and has a year old son named Aristotle.
Christians have their ten commandments, here are American Native ten commandments that I find make my life so much easier to live.
…the important sexual politics aspect of your post, because I’m not, and I agree with much of it.
But I can’t agree with this:
How did the natural human-animal act of sex become so distorted and ruined and exploited?
I don’t think that early humans’ sexual activity was idyllic and we went downhill from then. It’s sex education – both experiential and formal – and, of course, providing reproductive freedom that has made sex a far more relaxed, more enjoyable affair for more people. In truth, that’s only been true for a couple of generations, and mostly in the West.
That doesn’t mean that many partners didn’t mutually enjoy unexploitative sex before the mid-20th century. But do you really think things were better in the 5th century? Or in the 30th century BC? I sure don’t.
Unfortunately, we’ve only come part way. We’ve still got the titty bars, we still have rape, we still have a pitiful fratboy mentality on the part of a lot of men. But I think we’re better off now – women and men, straight and gay – than 50 years ago or 5,000 years ago.
Was it taboo growing up?
On a boat crossing the english channel when I was 12, I had a conversation with a group of british guys the same age. I asked if they’d seen “Godilla”, they said no, not until we’re older. We’re not allowed to see violent movies. They asked if I’d seen the latest Bardot movie. I said no, not until I was older. We’re not allowed to see naked people.
They didn’t think it strange to view an unclothed body, we didn’t think it strange to view a dead one. Go figure.