During the now-infamous Pie Fight and the ensuing exodus of liberal Democrats, there were a number of well-intentioned (and some not so well-intentioned) folks who urged the offended parties to stay and fight. There were several reasons offered, the chief of which was, essentially, that dKos had become a powerful force on the left, and therefore was worth fighting for. I’d like to debunk that notion, and present the reasons I decided to move on.
The fact of the matter is that dKos, like every other blog on earth, and the majority of voluntary associations, has no value or power outside of its members. There may be the odd exception, like the Better Business Bureau, which is potent in part because of its long-established good reputation, but dKos and blogs generally have barely been on the radar of the more attentive sections of the general public for scarcely a year. Moreover, based on Markos Moulitsas’ occasional revealing comments about his hardware and — thanks to the selfsame Pie Fight — his ad traffic, it’s plain that it isn’t even that big of a site. Big, perhaps, for the nascent field of political blogs, but there was a time when the biggest, baddest (and only) search engine on the block was Lycos. It didn’t matter in the long run.
DailyKos, just for the sake of perspective, gets half to one-third the traffic of FreeRepublic.com. And dKos’ traffic is amazingly stable. Aside from some small growth in the aftermath of the presidential elections, it’s not growing. If dKos is the great white hope (irony intended), we have problems.
Now, here are the reasons I think fighting this is futile:
- Moulitsas and his close allies have backed themselves into a corner. It would take a degree of humility one may be fairly certain they do not possess for them to change course, much less apologize.
- DailyKos has very clearly — if less than honestly and openly — staked out its turf. It’s all about winning elections by chasing the center. The Kos-DLC sniping that has gone on over the past year isn’t about ideology; it’s a simple turf war. Kos plainly objects to the level of corporate influence in the DLC, but it’s hard to see any other difference between the two.
- DailyKos is, as Moulitsas is fond of saying, about partisan politics. Activists, on the other hand, are driven by ideology and issues. It’s probably safe to say that if the American political system made third parties viable, there would be massive defection from the Democratic Party. This makes sense: if you want politicians to listen to you, being a party-line voter is counterproductive. Politicians listen to the people whose votes they’re not sure of. Partisan activists need to be fed and watered, of course, but it’s the ideological factions that have to be appeased.
- There is a real danger in any blog becoming the self-appointed voice of the party. Recent refugees from dKos know why this is, but politicians need to take care as well. By closely associating with dKos or any blog, as some congresscritters have, they run the risk of being tied to the inflammatory comments posted by J. Random Troll and the site’s owner. Elizabeth Dole has already made much of the association of Democratic politicians with Markos Moulitsas and his intemperate remarks referring to the contractors who were massacred, mutilated, and hanged in Iraq as “mercenaries”. By learning to communicate, possibly via a mechanism as simple as RSS, with as many liberal blogs as possible, our elected officials will increase their reach while reducing their vulnerability to loose cannons.
- Finally, and most importantly for me personally, the thing I value most about America is the egalitarian ideal for which it has striven since its inception. Everything else is secondary to that ideal, because, IMHO, everything else flows from it. For Moulitsas and his crew, that is evidently a fungible issue. For me, it is not. Without devotion to equality before the law, no country and no party — and certainly no website — is itself worthy of devotion.
Practical liberal activists need to be focused on three things. Firstly, they need to craft a persuasive message and get it out. Secondly, they need to be able to form coalitions with each other. And thirdly, they need to engage in meaningful two-way communications with our elected officials. Political blogs may well turn out to be an important tool in all three areas, but they can never be more than tools and remain effective. Once the blog branding and the personality of its webmaster become the foremost issues, that blog is well along on the road to irrelevance.
Thanks for putting together your thoughts on this!
A powerful and thoughtful diary.
Thank you eodell.
I read your posts with considerable admiration over at liberal street fighter.
This is the best and most concise statement I’ve seen so far.
I thought this was a well written diary and some good ideas. One thing I would like to say is that, I don’t think there is a huge riff between the two communities.. Of course I don’t think its my place to tell others what to criticize or what not to criticize, but I think the two places are cousins.
I don’t think there’s a huge rift, either. Obviously, I don’t think very highly of Markos Moulitsas’ tactics, but that’s beside the point.
They need to open their minds a little wider, and perhaps develop some empathy. We need to learn how to approach that kind of intense hostility with patience, not take it personally, and understand what’s behind it so we can find better ways to get through to them. This is crucially important because compared to the real opposition, “we” and “they” are us.
As one of those who was arguing that dKos was worth fighting for, I would add the following caveat: I think what a lot of us straddlers were fighting for was the ability for the two sites to work together, NOT for homogeneity or against Booman’s unique voice.
So if there’s really not a huge rift between the two sites — at least not one huge enough for us to join in progressive action — then I really don’t care what one thinks of the other. I’m a proud member of BOTH communities.
Well said.
The other thing I would add is that many times, statements that are offensive to those of us who follow particular issues closely are not even noticed by many who do not follow those issues closely.
We who do follow those issues closely need to remember that, and not jump down throats, accuse someone of some horrible thought or feeling or crime before making a very concerted attempt to explain FIRST.
So–just checking–if someone (me, for example), were to return to DKos to post, you (just to take a purely hypothetical example) wouldn’t taunt me about my promise not to return? And would surely defend me against other people who taunted me?
Before you answer, you might want to follow this link, RedDan:
http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2005/6/12/215752/295/38#38
And your final answer is?
If you returned with nothing but bile and divisive taunts that incite further tensions, I would absolutely taunt.
If you were to return with criticisms and an intention to both learn and teach, to answer and contribute, then I would never taunt.
So, wait. If I understand you correctly, you will take Shadowthief’s inventory because he has a bit of chip on shoulder, but endlessly defend Kos and his minions who have a stack of lumber on their’s? I mean is your issue with the churlishness or which side of the blog aisle it’s on. I’m asking. I don’t know what you may or may not have said directly to Kos, in relation to exhibition of bad temper, or to the many winged monkeys who flagrantly attacked menstruating she-devils like myself. But, leave us say, I certainly hope you reserve some of that taunting for those who drove so many of us to flee the abuses that took place on that site.
Go check my dialogue with Carl Nyberg, Arthur Gilroy and many others of late.
And yes I emailed Kos.
Very good. I will take you at your word, that you were equally critical of their behavior. That said, I really have to take issue with the continued attempts to shame people who left DK, reduced their participation on DK, or are critical of DK. We all have every right to invest our time and energy as we see fit. You see DK as a viable vehicle for you own such investiture. By all means, knock yourself out. But, you will note, that I don’t come onto that site and harangue you for continuing to rub shoulders with a misogynist, middle-of-the-road partisan hack, who repeatedly places political expediency above principle. I don’t know you. I don’t think how you spend your online hours are any of my business.
You’re subtle, and you’re well-spoken, but you’re a bully. Any time anyone on this site vents their spleen about their choice to move to a different online community, you seem to appear to play the self-appointed conscience of the left. If you think Kos is so bloody important in the future of American politics, you are welcome to him. I took my leave of him, for a range of reasons. I never was terribly impressed with the range of discourse on that site. And, I don’t think the strength of that site ever was rooted in Kos’s political viewpoint, which I found exceptionally shallow, or in any sense of community, because I found that sorely lacking, as well. The strength of that site was and is it’s numbers. Well, I am not a number. I am a free woman. And, I go where I please.
That said, I really have to take issue with the continued attempts to shame people who left DK, reduced their participation on DK, or are critical of DK.
I am not trying to shame anyone who left DK or reduced their participation, or even are critical – I myself am critical and often reduce my participation.
What I AM trying to do is rebut explicit, and in my opinion inaccurately portrayed, attempts to suggest or prescribe abandonment.
I do not see any calls to abandon Booman, or any of the other blogs on the diary list at Kos. I do not see any attempts to drive traffic away from other blogs to Kos, and I do not see explicit attempts to drive wedges into the communities here or elsewhere.
When I see such attempts, I try to respond because I think it is destructive and shortsighted.
I agree that the nasty bullshit that happened at Kos is ALSO destructive and shortsighted, but I think it is important to try and learn from that and teach using that…more important than you do.
And that’s fine. I do not in any way object to any kinds of attempts to build alternatives…and if they are better then great! But in the process of building alternatives I think it not necessary to destroy what little leverage we do have.
I am not trying to bully or shame anyone, I am expressing my opinion on what I think is an important issue.
If you do not think it important, then why comment?
If you do think it important, and your opinion and mine do not match, then why am I the bully for disagreeing and expressing myself about it?
I spend way too much time here at booman trib. Too much time on the web in general. I read as many diaries and comments as I possibly can. And I take exception to your remarks about people attempting to influence others to “abandon” dkos. Other than this particular diary, I have seen no such thing. And I am not sure that is the author’s intent here either.
We, as a community here, do not bash, slash or trash other blogs. . .and although everyone is entitled to their opinions, I really hope I don’t see any more diaries like this one. However, I took the diarist’s comments not so much as a “let’s abandon dkos” as a general discussion of getting too smug about political blogs, in particular, being of any great influence in the sphere of things. We do what we can do. . .each blog. Some view us as ready made ATM machines. Some are interested in our action alerts and the some times apparently successful results of those. But in the scheme of things, it is the person that casts the vote that is of real importance.
Yes, I think blogs are important and play a very vital role in information and suggestions that expand all of our political consciousness. No, I don’t think any one or group of Blogs or Blog owners are quite as important as they themselves may think they are to the people in the “belt way.” JMO
Hey Shirlstar!
I’m not jumping into the fray, but I felt compelled to comment about Martin Longman’s (Booman) respectful, model behavior during the best of times and the worst of times. (And this seemed to be as good a place as any to jump in – given the tone of your post)
When Martin first established this site, there were new members who had jumped the Kos ship – and a few who expressed negativity in explaining the reasons for transferring to this site. Without coming across as a scolding parent, Martin respectfully requested that we all join together in a positive manner to kick-off the new site. He didn’t lay down the law or command us to behave in a certain fashion, he merely requested that we focus on the betterment of the community, and the betterment of the world at large.
Skip forward to WWPie, and Martin clearly identified the need for some of the new members to gather, rant, hug, regroup and discuss. Not once did he scold anyone for negative remarks about DKos, yet he also walked an immensely fine line of respecting the needs of the new members and maintaining his personal relationship with a fellow blogger. And he did a magnificent job in all regards, with the interests of all parties in mind.
I have the utmost respect for Martin’s integrity and sensitivity – and I view his actions as a behavioral model to replicate. He’s been in a very difficult position, and he handled it all with grace, sensitivity and humanity – keeping his eyes on the prize of progressive discourse, community development, diversity and positive outcomes.
This wasn’t intended as a suck-up post. (Although it wouldn’t be beneath me to make every attempt to get my hands on a free Boo mug ;-). It was merely an observation of the actions exhibited by one heckuva blog host, who attracts the best of the best, and promotes the most positive behavior among his guests. (Even if some of us need an occasional 4 to lift our spirits)
That’s it. Best wishes to all, and to all a Good Night! (Now where can I find Man Eegee and his dear, sweet puppy for a couple of hugs?)
I am not trying to shame anyone who left DK…
Yes, you are.
Red Dan to Kamakhya:
I could find other examples, on this thread, or past threads you have participated in, but that one speaks volumes. You have criticized both her feelings and her choices, and inductively reasoned that her choice in multiples could damage the political process. That’s a shaming behavior, if I’ve ever seen one.
I do not see any calls to abandon Booman, or any of the other blogs on the diary list at Kos. I do not see any attempts to drive traffic away from other blogs to Kos, and I do not see explicit attempts to drive wedges into the communities here or elsewhere.
I think you are mischaracterizing what this dialogue, and others like it on this site, are about. It’s not about converting current members of DK, or convincing anyone new to leave. It’s commiserating about a decision already made — one which many, including yourself, have hectored us about, repeatedly. It’s about connecting the dots in our own psyches about what factors generated said choices. Many of us are still processing what happened. We are in a process of explaining ourselves to ourselves, and debunking the myths about DK’s relevance that we are constantly being pummeled with. Many here were disillusioned. I am not, particularly, because I never had any illusions about Kos. But, many are, and disillusionment needs to be followed with an assessment process, and a restructuring of belief systems, to replace that which has been shattered.
I agree that the nasty bullshit that happened at Kos is ALSO destructive and shortsighted, but I think it is important to try and learn from that and teach using that…more important than you do.
Please don’t tell me what is important to me. Simply because I don’t think learning and teaching needs to occur on that site, but in the world beyond it. I don’t need your, yes I’m going to say it, shaming. Again, the supposition that somehow my purpose in the world is diminished because I don’t think a particular website is worth the time and energy. You imply, skillfully and subtly, that there is a problem with my priorities. Let me assure you, there is nothing wrong with my priorities, my attitudes, my beliefs, or my choices. And, I could live without the lectures.
I don’t understand this — since the only attempt to drive people away from DKos was by invitation of Kos himself!
Two replies back:
Prior post:
Whose chip, where? (head spinning from displayed cognitive dissonance) *cough!* –M
I see this diary is now descending into DKos-style snarkiness and nastiness.
Save it, Maynard. You’re in the wrong place for that.
I’ll post whatever I think appropriate. Snark or not. I honestly think this is among the most ridiculous non-debates I’ve seen online in years. Not only has it hindered those attempting organize in opposition against serious policy issues, but it has drawn out the most extreme elements and given them a message to shout about. There is nothing here that relates to policy propositions or even meaningful compromise on specific issues. It is all about how bad is kos. I – frankly – don’t care much about kos. It’s over. So how about talking about something meaningful? The fight, from either perspective, goes nowhere. JMO. Cheers! đŸ™‚ –M
Here we go again.
Not only has it hindered those attempting organize in opposition against serious policy issues…
Allow me to punture the balloon of self-importance. There were millions of people organised independently of DKos and BooTrib before Al Gore invented the Internets, and these two sites are only a very small part of the organisational capabilities of American politicss.
it has drawn out the most extreme elements and given them a message to shout about….
Have to agree with you there.
There is nothing here that relates to policy propositions or even meaningful compromise on specific issues.
That’s what we keep telling RedDan, you, and the other cat-herders: leave us be. You go post on DKos and we’ll post there, too (some of us), or here, or wherever we please. Go discuss serious policy issues and leave us in peace.
I – frankly – don’t care much about kos.
Me, neither. What happens or doesn’t happen on the DKos site is irrelevant to me.
Well, we agreed on 3 out of 4 things. Not bad.
“Allow me to punture the balloon of self-importance.”
And speaking of “self-importance” …
“That’s what we keep telling RedDan, you, and the other cat-herders: leave us be.”
Presupposes I am a “cat-herder”, whatever that may mean, and that I somehow am working with Red Dan (whoever he is). I really don’t have much interest in “herding” you (or anyone else) toward any specific goal. Go right ahead and continue doing your thang.
“What happens or doesn’t happen on the DKos site is irrelevant to me.”
If that were truly the case, this diary and thread would never have gained traction. You would be off writing about something else in some other diary. Or possibly writing a diary of your own. You might even be writing about a policy issue of relevance to you rather than wringing your hands over some mean bad things Kos and his minions appears to have said. IMO this tempest in a teapot is like General Murray in Lawrence of Arabia: “[This fight is] a sideshow of a sideshow!”
Speaking of which, this whole damn diary and thread reminds me of that classic You Sad Bastard Kuro5hin thread that grew to such enormous lengths that it had to be closed. Well, at least “You Sad Bastard” contained more implied content that this exchange. *cough!* Outta here! –M
Your words speak for yourself. Thanks for “outing” yourself far better than I could have ever done.
Stop, regroup and rethink quickly. People of all stripes are entitled and encouraged to put their opinions out here in blogs. If you don’t like a thread find another for crying out loud. It isn’t necessary to resort to bully tactics to make your point.
I have used no epithets as an ad-hominem attack against the person in question. Throughout this thread I have used straightforward logical argument backed sourced quotes to make my position known. It is my opponent, on the other hand, who engaged in personal attacks by demanding that I: refrain from posting my opinion on this matter here, then in reply engaged in ad-hominem by presupposing that the content of my reply was crafted due to an excess ‘self-importance’, rather than responding to the statements therein, and then topped it off with a slew of 1s in every post of mine through that entire thread. And you call my posts “bullying”? I suppose you do so because I openly said – “I don’t think I like you” in the subject of my final reply. Saying “I don’t like you” is what a bully does, but not: “shut up”; “you’re so self-important – I’ll teach you”; “here, have some 1s”? Speaking of which, it’s considered common courtesy not to rate those comments with whom one is engaged in debate as it just fosters rating wars. Note that I did not reply in kind – because rating wars are an utter waste of db space and time.
So, do I think this is “bullying”? No, I do not. Where I come from, bullying usually requires some measure of force and violence. There was none here by either party. Just words. However, I do believe your words represent a double standard for right and wrong based on a predisposition in support of the original diary author (which has filtered down to those who “defend” her position in opposition to those who do not), and not out of a consistent logical argument on what I wrote one way or the other. JMO. –M
in the phrase re “where you come from.”
The writer is gently attempting to tell you that you are coming from a different sort of place than this one.
I had the opportunity to meet Markos last weekend.
Hearing him say some of the same words I had objected to in writing, with the full range of vocal inflection that is available in a person-to-person discussion, brought a tone that is entirely different from what I personally “heard” via the written word. There was a respectful dialog in which he said he does not want to be the “end-all, be-all” of the left-wing blogosphere, and he couldn’t be that even if he did want to. Not only does he respect other sites for their unique voices, he encourages us all to explore the blog universe to find out what’s out there – to find those places where we each feel we best belong.
The conversation was an excellent reminder of what is lost from the debate when it is limited to the two-dimensional realm of text. It was also an excellent reminder of the importance of choosing one’s words extremely carefully when they will be available only in written form.
OK, I was out of town–well out of country for a while and out of functional internet connection for the other while–for the past couple of weeks and have no idea what the Pie Fight was all about. Anyone have a couple of links that would get me up to speed?
that is a conversation ender. here’s my take…It was about an ad for gilligans island with two women(ginger and mary ann) scantily dressed in sexual positions, having a pie fight…Offensive to some..the bigger problem people had was Markos weighed in with his opinion and comments in regards to the people who had problems with the ad…that is what really started it all.. IMO. I kinda missed the whole war of words, by the time I caught on..it seemed way out of control. I had no problem with the stupid ad, many others did. I love the dkos site and I love it here too. I am happy in both worlds. I don’t like the Dkos bashing and I don’t Appreciate it at all. If someone was bashing BoomanTrib over there I would stick up for it.
The last thing I would have guessed is a major dKos blowup connected to Ginger and Marianne. But thanks for the info, Chamonix1.
I’d be happy to read any other takes on the great debate.
There was a big fight over the ad, a lot of the ladies took offense and many diaries later, took off, some came here and we had a great influx of new members, we are at 1600+ I think now and had 500 new members in a couple days. We had a series of welcome wagon diaries that left us all frazzeled plus a great number of diaries here regarding the fight at DK.. As you can see it is not over yet.
Armando came here, posted diary, got mad and left and took the diary with him. More fighting back and forth. Never got into the fight and didn’t follow it too much except for the fall out here. Everyone has recovered I think, for the most part and it’s really best to not stir this up again….My 2 cents…
I thankfully did not participate in the fight. It started because of an ad on dkos site. Which featured two women, over emphasized in the breasts, scantily clad that were apparently covering each other in cream pies (I didn’t look at the ad either)while posing or moving in sexually suggestive manners. Some women took offense and thought it not an appropriate ad for a democratic or progressive political site who claims to be sensitive to women’s concerns and issues. Battle lines were drawn by those who thought women should not be upset by it, and those who felt it was sexist advertising. But the battle apparently began in earnest over Markos’ remarks on the front page which in essence said the “women’s studies” cry babies should get over their single issue concerns which are no concern of dkos or the Dem party, it’s his site he can do what he wants, and if you don’t like it don’t let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. (My capsulated version from listening to the hundreds of stories that were told concerning it). Name calling invectives were freely thrown in diaries and it became very heated.
In the space of 5 days, 600 new members signed on here at Booman, most all described themselves as refugees of the Pie Wars. A lot of deep hurts and anger were experienced.
I think many of them are liking their new home.
If I have made gross misrepresentations here, I am sure someone will correct me. However, Booman is not a place where we want to bash or trash other blogs. We feel that it is a dkos issue, and we urge those that need to discuss or settle it in depth to do so at dkos.
We wish dkos no ill, nor any of those who are members there.
“Matter is Energy. Energy is Light. We are all Light Beings.”
~Albert Einstein
that many of us (myself included) got involved b/c of the disparaging and agressively misogynistic comments posted in the diaries of community members who were offended. I felt that the real problem revealed was how deeply infected some folks are there by seriously hostile ideas about women. The lack of respect shown toward some female members of the community was stunning – they were called frigid, antisex, manhaters, compared to Andrea Dworkin. This is immediately after weeks of attacks on women’s health advocates as “naive single issue voters”.
Then kos made his crack about “women’s studies” people. That was sort of the last straw, a match thrown into a room full of gas fumes.
I hesitate to post this, because I really don’t want to fight about it, but here are the facts in my case. I was annoyed by Kos’s comments about humorless women’s studies types. But it was his comment that abortion is horrible and any party that is pro-abortion won’t have him in it that made it not feel right for me to be there anymore. I know there are many, many people who feel this way about abortion. But I usually don’t hang out with them much.
But that’s not what he said.
And in every single one of those posts about “issues and framing” he was explicitly PRO-CHOICE.
One does not have to be pro-abortion in order to be pro-choice.
“Love the sinner but hate the sin.”
Sorry, sets off my inner “fundie” detector.
You can let those bells ring all you want, madman.
You can accuse me of being a “fundie” all you want.
Whatever.
It’s crap.
My mother was a family planning counsellor and director for 15 years. I spent a good portion of my time in University protecting folks heading into the clinic from fundie creeps.
I support the right to choose.
I and my partner were forced into the position of having to choose. And we did. And it was painful, sad, emotionally wracking, physically and mentally exhausting. And it was the right choice.
It is possible to not like abortion and support the right to choose.
It is possible to not like abortion and EXERCISE the right to choose.
Don’t start your little “radar” games with me, please.
Hm, let’s try this as a plank in the Democratic Party platform:
“Abortion is a horrible, terrible, truly awful thing that makes us all want to scream…it is a nightmare beyond description and well, yes, the fundies ARE right, it IS murder…
Oh, and we want it to be legal. We’re VERY pro-choice.”
I’ve got Kos’ position (and RedDan’s) down just right.
No, my plank is that it is not anyone’s business what a woman decides to do with her body, what a woman and her partner decide to do with their decisions about reproducing.
That is a pro-choice position.
Having been in the situation of having to actually make that choice with my partner, and dealing with the consequences of that choice, and knowing that, although painful and difficult, it was the right choice, and that being in the same situation I would make the same choice, I think that I can safely say that your misrepresentation of the position taken by Kos, your misrepresentation and false conflation of my position with Kos’ position, and your general hostility and nastiness, to which I have responded both here and on Kos, are entirely warranted.
A fair number of us are both pro-choice AND pro-life. I guess you might call us the anything-is-better-than-coathangers wing.
We don’t have to LIKE abortion to want to keep it legal and safe. We can even HATE abortion and want it legal and safe.
You don’t have to fight us to get what you want.
IMHO, the trouble with kos’ take on abortion is that he (apparently) thinks it is more important to elect democrats than it is to be sure there are no more coathangers.
Please don’t think all of us are so foolish. Red Dan clearly is not.
What??? Kos said “that abortion is horrible and any party that is pro-abortion won’t have him in it” WTF…Is this true? can someone provide a link or something…This makes no sense at all.
That quote is cherry-picked, taken out of context, and amplified for effect…
This:
So why am I a supporter of abortion-rights? Well, it’s clearly not because of abortion itself. And finding those broader values that lead us to support one issue or another is far more important than the single issue itself. We, as a party, won’t win any more elections until we recognize that.
Let’s take the abortion issue. I support choice because I don’t think it’s my business, or government’s, to control any woman’s body. I think women have an expectation of privacy when dealing with their personal medical concerns.
Is what he said.
He is stating that Abortion is not a core value, CHOICE is a core value.
Agree or disagree with him, that’s a personal opinion…the functional outcome, however, is the SAME…whether you are pro-abortion or pro-choice.
Specifically not choice. Kos wanted to frame it under the umbrella of PRIVACY. Privacy only, not choice.
Furthermore, he said it should not be part of the Democratic Party’s platform. That it shouldn’t be a goal.
So, I had left for a short while then. That was too much. But, I figured he was fighting a good fight.
So, when the pie wars came, they were only the last straw. I’ve seen many comments that echo this thought. People didn’t leave just because of pie wars. Markos has made many comments trying to denigrate women’s issues. I know, because there were several times when I just couldn’t believe what I read on the screen, coming from him.
When he wrote, during the pie wars, that us “crybabies” could just leave, many of us did.
someone was cherry picking and taking his words out of context…Thanks for your work here and there.
here is the objectionable thread from Kos (dated June 6), which garnered 1048 comments.
Was this crossposted to dKos?
No, though I have expressed similar sentiments in a briefer form over there. I wanted to post this diary mainly to sum up my personal feelings about the dKos debacle, and to say to other refugees that it’s not really as disastrous as it felt, and liberal activism will go on with or without dKos, and possibly be stronger for the lessons learned.
First, DailyKos traffic has increased over the last months, not decreased.
The “exodus” you speak of is minimal.
Second, Moulitsas and his crew, as you sarcastically put it, have not backed themselves into anywhere, any more than any other group (imaginary or not) has backed themselves into a corner.
There was a fight, there were bad words spoken and bad blood between folks has grown and ebbed.
Marcos Moulitsas is human, has failings, and has blind spots. So do you and so do I.
DailyKos has very clearly — if less than honestly and openly — staked out its turf. It’s all about winning elections by chasing the center.
So you say. I have been there for a long long time, and am far far to the left of most people there and here. I say that Kos has clearly staked out its aims very clearly – the pushing of a liberal agenda by getting democrats elected – if that means centrists in areas where the politics are conservative, then so be it, and if that means liberals in areas where liberals are dominant then all the better, and if that means economic populism in Red States (Scweitzer in Montana) then great.
Activists, on the other hand, are driven by ideology and issues. It’s probably safe to say that if the American political system made third parties viable, there would be massive defection from the Democratic Party.
I do not think it is safe to say that at all. I think that the political infrastructure, the political culture, the media culture and dynamics, and the basic class unconsciousness of the American electorate are such that MAKES third parties unviable…there are a massive number of parties out there and virtually none of them have any respectable record of receiving votes in any significant number. Until people reach the point of decision to actively pursue and vote for and work for third parties, they will either vote for the major parties or not vote.
There is a real danger in any blog becoming the self-appointed voice of the party.
And you are the self appointed voice of progressives?
Recent refugees from dKos know why this is
Do they? Is it not true that a very small number alienated for both good and bad reasons from a slightly larger but still very small community are now appointing themselves spokespeople for an entire group?
but politicians need to take care as well. By closely associating with dKos or any blog, as some congresscritters have, they run the risk of being tied to the inflammatory comments posted by J. Random Troll and the site’s owner.
So what? It hasn’t stopped effective actions being taken. Thousands of letters and comments and signatures in support of Howard Dean, 100K raised for the DNC (which is spending that money on state party organizations rather than on fat cat fundraising dinners, half a million signatures on Conyers DSM letter…this is not ineffective and is not compromised by any one given comment or tirade.
Elizabeth Dole has already made much of the association of Democratic politicians with Markos Moulitsas and his intemperate remarks referring to the contractors who were massacred, mutilated, and hanged in Iraq as “mercenaries”.
So have many GOP thugs and media swine.
You call yourself a progressive fighter, and I think that you really are, and good for you. I am on your side, and support your fight. I am a leftist, feminist, anti-racist, progressive. However, and without any serious rancor on my part toward you, please answer me this:
Are you kidding me? You think that Elizabeth Dole or Tom Delay or Jonah Goldberg’s opinion of a comment from Daily Kos as it reflects on Durbin or Conyers or Pelosi is worth the pixels wasted?
I say no way.
Finally, and most importantly for me personally, the thing I value most about America is the egalitarian ideal for which it has striven since its inception.
Well, that ideal is bandied about, but actions speak louder than words, and the ideal is not found in many, if any of the actions of our ruling class.
Everything else is secondary to that ideal, because, IMHO, everything else flows from it.
Fine, but don’t mistake that ideal as you interpret it for the reality, which is a capitalist, racist, corporatist class society with the trappings and rhetorical decorations of egalitarianism.
For Moulitsas and his crew, that is evidently a fungible issue. For me, it is not. Without devotion to equality before the law, no country and no party — and certainly no website — is itself worthy of devotion.
You have far more deserving targets. Don’t waste your ammo. Has Kos banned or silenced anyone? No. Has Kos dismissed or belittled anyonee in any way beyond testy and ill-considered remarks taht reveal that he is (gasp) a flawed and imperfect individual? No. Are a wide array of progressive and leftist and egalitarian issues and activist actions broadcast on Kos everyday with no interference? Yes. Are there a wide array of offensive, stupid, pernicious, and disgusting comments and diaries on Kos and nearly every other website? Yes.
Practical liberal activists need to be focused on three things.
Firstly, they need to craft a persuasive message and get it out.
Fine, that’s your first priority. I don’t disagree that it’s important, but am not convinced of its primary importance.
Secondly, they need to be able to form coalitions with each other.
Which you are explicitly and directly rejecting and agitating against in this diary.
And thirdly, they need to engage in meaningful two-way communications with our elected officials.
Which you are suggesting should NOT happen on the website that is the target of your ire…for reasons that I find lacking in convincing logic or fact.
Political blogs may well turn out to be an important tool in all three areas, but they can never be more than tools and remain effective. Once the blog branding and the personality of its webmaster become the foremost issues, that blog is well along on the road to irrelevance.
So you say.
I say that the fact that Kos is pretty much the most visited and read website on the Liberal side, and is among the top ten of all political blogs indicates that its value as a tool for crafting and disseminating messages, for building coalitions despite friction, disagreement and occasional fights, and for meaningful two way communication with elected officials and party leaders is incredibly valuable.
Rather than tear that one down, why not either a) participate in it en masse and shift its focus or b) build ANOTHER one. There’s plenty of room.
Diarist: Activists, on the other hand, are driven by ideology and issues. It’s probably safe to say that if the American political system made third parties viable, there would be massive defection from the Democratic Party.
RedDan: I do not think it is safe to say that at all. I think that the political infrastructure, the political culture, the media culture and dynamics, and the basic class unconsciousness of the American electorate are such that MAKES third parties unviable…there are a massive number of parties out there and virtually none of them have any respectable record of receiving votes in any significant number. Until people reach the point of decision to actively pursue and vote for and work for third parties, they will either vote for the major parties or not vote.
What kills the viability of third parties is the massive influx of corporate money, power mongering, and unfettered influence awash in the Dem and Republican parties.
What kills the viability of third parties is the massive influx of corporate money, power mongering, and unfettered influence awash in the Dem and Republican parties.
Can we test it?
Yes, we can.
Go back to the early 1900’s – a period of time when corporate influence on both parties was as much, if not more pernicious than it is now.
What gave rise to the strength of the Communist and Socialist Parties and the other alternative parties that, for a brief moment (historically speaking) had memberships in the millions, significant percentages of the national vote, and several winning runs for state and local office?
Remember, corporate influence then was, if anything, WORSE than now (believe it or not, do the research, it’s true!)…what brought the alternative political parties to the forefront?
Class consciousness. The Depression. The Wobblies. Organized, disciplined, militant labor unions. Suffragettes (gawd I hate that term, it sounds so condescending.)…Eugene Debs, Elizabeth Gurley Flynn, Sacco and Vanzetti, and so on.
I appreciate your historical wisdom. Here’s the “however”. However, times and society are much different now and the power of corporations is much more complex and unwieldy. In fact, their increased status now was in reaction to those socialist movements and, to this date, they have won that political war. I’ll further the discussion by asking what the necessary conditions would be in this context for third parties to come anywhere near close to being viable in this corporate environment. It has to be a hell of a lot more than ideals and bumper stickers.
Explicitly class conscious unionizing.
Explicitly class conscious political organizing.
Militant, active, and fearless social organizing.
Simple, direct, powerful messages backed up with direct, effective ACTIONS that quickly and demonstrably benefit the people that we need to form a mass political base motivated for true social change.
Howzzat.
Examples: Neighborhood cleanups. School fundraising. Direct action and support for people in need due to layoffs, firings, injury. Mass actions in support of abandoned or scapegoated soldiers. And so on.
And a note of caution should be appended to that…
When and if we, the progressive left, engage in these activities, we are going to come into extremely close contact with people who are going to make us extremely uncomfortable and angry and frustrated.
Not because of skin color, gender, class, or what-have-you…but because the very people that we need to reach are the people that are in many ways the most deeply affected by the media barrage and the broad-scale social brainwashing.
They are sexist, they are racist, they are ignorant, they have superstitions and deep held prejudices, they are violent, they are rude, they are, in short, clear expressions of the American social psyche at its most raw.
And yet…they are good, honest, hardworking people who, if they wanted, if they decided to, could change the nation in a few days.
It’s going to be a brutal task.
When and if we, the progressive left, engage in these activities, we are going to come into extremely close contact with people who are going to make us extremely uncomfortable and angry and frustrated.
And that’s an important warning. What gets me is when the opposition comes from within our own ranks. If that can’t be fixed, how can we possibly present a unified and coherent message to those on the other side, so to speak?
It’s good practice.
If we can expose, hammer out, and devise effective ameliorants to basic issues within our own ranks FIRST (as with the Pie Fight), and learn from that process as to how to ameliorate those conflicts in external encounters…then we will be one step ahead.
How effective have we been in resolving that conflict? And has it just now morphed into SYFPH about the “I” word – impeachment.
There’s a tension between those who want to control the message and those who want to discuss what the message ought to be in the first place. I guess that’s the universal plague of the left.
Actually, I think that, given the nature of the fights and the people involved, that a lot has been done that is very very good.
and “The Enemy is Us.”
There’s real limitations in mapping the Party duopoly onto broader social relationships. The world is not a two-player zero-sum game.
That’s being done, albeit in smaller measures. But, the mitigating factor once again is money and the breadth of its influence. He who has the most wins. How can third parties realistically counter that in your political climate?
That’s why Howard Dean and the “100 dollar revolution” was and remains so important.
Union organizing coupled with that kind of tactic directed toward NOT the DNC, but the Progressive coffers…
Paying and supporting a broad class of paid political strategists and operatives and organizers to do nothing but that…
Is a model that can and should work.
Unions. Unions. Unions. Working class organization in the service industries, the temp industries, and so on…
A hint: Those wise to women’s history would know that “suffragettes” was a term despised as a diminutive — and as a gender-specific term, denying those men who supported them — by most women in the cause here, who called themselves suffragists.
It is important to honor them by calling them what they called themselves in this country, not the term used in Europe (and by a small group here who trained there and came back here, but only for the last years of the century of struggle, as suffragists called it here, for what already had been won by women there).
I would argue that corporate money and the power of established parties is ultimately irrelevant in the struggle to build a viable third party. It has been done before — by the Republican Party — but it was accompanied by the collapse of the Whigs.
I think the absence of a real third (or fourth, or fifth) party is that the American system naturally produces two and only two parties as a result of having a presidential rather than parliamentary system. Direct election of the head of state leaves him accountable only to the party that elected him, and tends to automatically lump everyone else into the opposition. In a parliamentary system, the prime minister can only hold onto his position by crafting a coalition of parties. Except when the system is deliberately constructed to grant disproportional power to the party of the prime minister, as in the UK, the advantage of belonging to the party of the head of state is greatly reduced, and multiple parties can flourish.
Has Kos dismissed or belittled anyonee in any way beyond testy and ill-considered remarks taht reveal that he is (gasp) a flawed and imperfect individual? No.
Pardon?
Look, I don’t want to get in the middle of this fray here because I believe this discussion belongs at dKos. I also believe that we could be having a broader discussion about the role of blogs in general on this site, rather than holding up dKos as an example because that just continues to increase the tension between the sites. There is still tension and there are some very skewed opinions about what BT is all about as a result and it’s all unecessary, imho. But, we just don’t listen to each other all that well.
Anyway, I definitely disagree with your writing off kos’s comments as just the writings of a flawed individual. I disagree with his opinions but would never take it out on his character and I don’t think that’s helpful.
As the blog owner and a recognized, political savvy voice on the left (not as some “flawed and imperfect individual”), he made comments that had a far more hard-hitting punch than your descriptors allow. Ironically, that was exactly the crux of the problem – people feeling they were not being taken seriously. From what I’ve seen the past couple of days over there, this attitude by some continues. Seriously, it makes my head hurt. That’s why I’m not there. As I told Armando recently, who suggested that I ought to be, I just don’t have the strength anymore.
You actually can build coalitions without warring with each other. That’s much easier on my poor head. Diplomacy – what a concept.
This speaks to a bunch of stuff that I have been thinking about recently.
Is he “a leader”?
What if he does not WANT to be “a leader”?
Does he have a responsibility as the proprietor and owner of the site to become “a leader” whether he wants to be or not?
At what point do his comments as an individual, his desires, his traits and characteristics, his flaws and blind spots become more important, more powerful and more impactful than anyone else’s?
I think that Marcos the man and DKos the community were (and remain) pedestalized in a very destructive and disempowering way.
I think that it is draining energy, enthusiasm, and agency from the community.
I think that it is negatively impacting many people who started blogging and sapping their vitality, and that it is inducing “crowd behavior” in many readers.
a recognized, political savvy voice on the left
This is what I mean: Kos is not nor never has been a Leftist. The vast majority of the posters and contributors to Kos are not Leftists. Never have been. We may WANT them to be…but they never have been.
You actually can build coalitions without warring with each other.
Yes, you can.
So why didn’t that happen? Why doesn’t that happen?
I know why, and it has to do with the same bullshit that has plagued the Left since at least the late 60’s.
At what point do his comments as an individual, his desires, his traits and characteristics, his flaws and blind spots become more important, more powerful and more impactful than anyone else’s?
This is what I mean: Kos is not nor never has been a Leftist.
Okay, kos is a centrist then. Define leftist if you disagree. When I use the word, it refers to people on the left end of the political spectrum – from center, leftward.
If you know why the left hasn’t been able to build coalitions since the late 60s, I’d like to hear about it. Remember, I’m a Canadian and we have had coalition building on the left here – more out of necessity lately – and I’ve been an observer of US politics since way back as well, but I certainly don’t have the magic answer to why the left in America can’t get it together. I can give you one perspective though – the US left has failed to clearly define its platforms in practical terms. But, it’s up against the ridiculous anti-reality party on the right, so it’s damn hard to get the Dem’s message through.
I don’t know…
In my book, a leftist is someone who advocates for and organizes around the basic principles of Marxism/Socialism…
That includes a very broad array of parties and strands…but they all share one basic tenet: That the fundamental power relationships in society are based on control over the means of production, and that the fundamental changes in society that are required, the keystone in the arch that incorporates racism, sexism, ageism, homophobia, puritanism and so on and so forth…is going to comprise mass-basaed, class-based economic democracy at the most basic level – worker control over the means of production.
That’s a Leftist.
Why can’t the Left build coalitions? Why can’t the Liberals, Progressives, Leftists, and etc get our collective shit together?
No one working tactic or strategy has yet been demonstrated to succeed in any given case. Everyone has evidence that their preferred organizational philosophy works in one case or another, and is unconvinced by the arguments from other camps. Basic disagreements about “what is important shit” cause fundamental breakdowns in cooperative tactics and strategies. Lack of money and peoplepower lead to turf jealousy and turf wars…and so on.
IOW, we think too damn much! đŸ™‚
Too smart and stubborn and selfish and middle class.
We constitute bourgeois class traitors, and we carry that baggage with us.
Well, I’m poor so that dog don’t hunt for me personally, but I do understand about the baggage. I know how hard it is to herd cats. Just try getting a bunch of poor people together to organize these days.
We’re seen as intellectuals on this side and that is baggage that we’ve been carrying for years because the right constantly derides intellectualism by implying that we simply can’t walk and chew gum at the same time. Unfortunately, that’s also the attitude of many centrists ie. well, if you’re busy thinking or talking about that [insert issue here], obviously you aren’t doing anything besides that mental masturbation, so you’re just wasting time.
We really need to stop and embrace the diversity. We need thinkers. We need doers. We need thinkers who do stuff. We need everybody who’s willing and still drawing breath. I’ll take this opportunity to point out one difference I’ve seen here at BT that defies some of the more powerful voices at dKos – it is possible to make that happen with the respect people ought to get, no matter how they contribute. Perhaps that reflects this diarist’s concerns about egalitarianism. I’m not sure. I also have no idea how this site will evolve or what its future challenges will be. One thing I do know, however, is that things are the way you make them. And this site is attempting to form itself into something unique. It may succeed. It may fail. The challenge is worth it though. And that’s as it should be on a broader scale politically. (Oh, I know – you have to win elections too…considering we haven’t been all that effective the past few years, maybe it’s time to do something new…)
Okay. I have to go to bed. Unforunately, you and I have a vast time difference, so enjoy your day! I’m off for tests at the hospital in the morning, so I have to get some sleep. Thank you for the discussion. Post some more. I’ll pop in tomorrow.
First, DailyKos traffic has increased over the last months, not decreased.
Actually, I said that “dKos’ traffic is amazingly stable”. The Alexa graph shows pretty flat traffic since the beginning of March. All of the fluctuations from March to the present day fall within the realm of statistical noise and seem to be driven by the weekly news cycle.
And you are the self appointed voice of progressives?
I can’t begin to guess where you got that. I speak only for myself, and my opinions about what progressives should do are my best educated guesses offered as suggestions.
Are you kidding me? You think that Elizabeth Dole or Tom Delay or Jonah Goldberg’s opinion of a comment from Daily Kos as it reflects on Durbin or Conyers or Pelosi is worth the pixels wasted?
All of these people have audiences. Extreme, inflammatory statements — and I think the “mercenary” remark in its original context was both extreme and inflammatory — can be quite effectively used as propaganda tools by the opposition. How much mileage have the enemies of feminism gotten out of Andrea Dworkin, obscuring the statements of more diplomatic feminists and even Dworkin’s own well-reasoned arguments? Yes, it matters.
Fine, but don’t mistake that ideal as you interpret it for the reality, which is a capitalist, racist, corporatist class society with the trappings and rhetorical decorations of egalitarianism.
In that respect, you are preaching to the socialist choir, RedDan. Egalitarianism has always been a distant ideal, but the mere fact that it has been enshrined as a core principle of the republic has often been a great aid to those struggling for it. Many of our more enlightened moments as a society have been driven by an awareness of the gap between reality and our unimplemented ideals. The high-falutin rhetoric of the slave-owning, all-white, all-male, all-wealthy authors of the Declaration of Independence was an important factor in the eventual abolition of slavery, and in many subsequent social struggles. Because the ruling classes cannot resist wrapping themselves in the hollow shell of egalitarianism, that shell stands ever ready for us to fill it with substance.
Which you are explicitly and directly rejecting and agitating against in this diary.
On the contrary, my point is that the dKos crowd has rejected such coalitions as unnecessary or unimportant. They seem to believe that there is a “mainstream” adequate by itself to seize power without the support of women and minorities. Markos in particular seems to place great emphasis on the working poor, but bizarrely seems to be unaware that the working poor consist mostly of women and minorities. Worst of all, he seems to believe that women and minorities can be safely ignored because — what? they’re going to suddenly vote for Republicans? You’d have thought that Nader 2000 would have disabused Dems of the notion that any of the various subdivisions of the left can be safely ignored.
Which you are suggesting should NOT happen on the website that is the target of your ire…for reasons that I find lacking in convincing logic or fact.
Mostly I think — and I thought I was clearer about this than perhaps I really was — that politicians should not become reliant on a single blog. DailyKos seems a particularly poor choice because of the intemperate speech of its maintainer, but even that aside, our representatives should be working harder to communicate with their constituents. Even if dKos was regularly visited by half of all Democrats — something that will surely never happen — that would still leave the other half distributed among many other blogs and other net outlets.
In summary, the point I’ve most been trying to get at is that a really effective blog is going to develop a large community by being amenable to a large number of people. It is decidedly not necessary for anyone to hold their nose and submit to vitriolic abuse just to support the cause, and therefore we should all go where we feel we can do the most good without too much concern for the rise and fall of any particular blog. For me, at this moment, that’s Booman Tribune. If it’s DailyKos for someone else, more power to you.
What’s important is that people not become so distraught — and many people are quite distraught — that they become discouraged and drop out of political discourse altogether, or feel that they can’t work effectively if they don’t follow the current blog fads.
I think if you look at ALL the large blogs, their traffic has been amazingly stable since last december, and that their fluctuations have been driven by the news cycle.
I divined the “you speak for progressives” bit of nastiness because of the title and tone of your diary. You are prescribing a course of action for progressives based on your viewpoint and presenting it in declarative terms.
All of these people have audiences. Extreme, inflammatory statements — and I think the “mercenary” remark in its original context was both extreme and inflammatory — can be quite effectively used as propaganda tools by the opposition. How much mileage have the enemies of feminism gotten out of Andrea Dworkin, obscuring the statements of more diplomatic feminists and even Dworkin’s own well-reasoned arguments? Yes, it matters.
So are you saying that we should watch what we say? That Dworkin should have censored herself? That outspoken declarations of dearly held opinion should be quashed because they might give propaganda tools to the opposition?
Kos’ statements on the mercenaries are and were exactly correct, and have been born out by the facts and actions of the mercenary armies in Iraq.
Furthermore and more importantly, the nature of our opposition is such that it does not matter what we say, they will still lie, smear, and distort what we say and do for their own purposes. Witness Durbin.
On the contrary, my point is that the dKos crowd has rejected such coalitions as unnecessary or unimportant.
No it hasn’t. Some members of the DKos crowd have done so, and been pretty harshly dealt with by many other members…such as myself, Meteor Blades, Plutonium Page, Hunter, and many, many more. Kos said some things that were nasty, sarcastic, inflammatory and dismissive…those statements were followed up by a retraction and by a series of explorations of policy and philosophy that were explicitly aimed at discussing and thinking about how to make and frame and communicate in ways that would build and strengthen coalitions.
They seem to believe that there is a “mainstream” adequate by itself to seize power without the support of women and minorities.
Excuse me, but that is bullshit. It is not borne out by even a quick perusal of the front page posts or the diaries, much less the comments.
Markos in particular seems to place great emphasis on the working poor, but bizarrely seems to be unaware that the working poor consist mostly of women and minorities.
That is not true.
Bureau of Labor Statistics data from 2000 indicates that the poverty RATE is much higher for women and minorities,but that overall, the working poor is comrpised of nearly equal numbers of white men and women, more hispanic men than women, and vastly more black women than men.
Worst of all, he seems to believe that women and minorities can be safely ignored because — what? they’re going to suddenly vote for Republicans? You’d have thought that Nader 2000 would have disabused Dems of the notion that any of the various subdivisions of the left can be safely ignored.
Nader in 2000 received his vast majority of votes from White, Middle and Professional Class people between the ages of 18 and 35. I do not think that any data shows that Nader had significant support from minorities, or working poor men or women.
It’s unfortunate, I hope it changes, I hope that more of the working poor and minorities start voting for and getting active around alternative parties…but that has not happened yet.
Mostly I think — and I thought I was clearer about this than perhaps I really was — that politicians should not become reliant on a single blog.
Agreed. No question.
DailyKos seems a particularly poor choice because of the intemperate speech of its maintainer,
Disagree strongly. The community is more than its blog owner, and it is the largest and most active liberal blog going. The politicians want action, want feedback, and want dollars. They can rely on the letters they post on Kos to be cross-linked to literally hundreds of other websites, but they CANNOT be confident that the same would happen in reverse.
In summary, the point I’ve most been trying to get at is that a really effective blog is going to develop a large community by being amenable to a large number of people.
Kos is really effective and has developed a large community, and despite several unpleasant and unfortunte, but perhaps necessary and ultimately useful conflicts, it is amenable to a very large number of people to the tune of what, 14 million hits a month? Better than 400 to 500 thousand hits a day?
It is decidedly not necessary for anyone to hold their nose and submit to vitriolic abuse just to support the cause
It may very well be necessary to do exactly that.
I am perfectly and happily supportive for everyone and anyone to participate when, where, and how they like.
But for you to attack and denigrate and misrepresent the DailyKos as an example of how bad, how intolerant, and how centerist and treacherous and etc (all of which is most certainly implied in your original diary) and then try to claim that you are suggesting abandoning that tool, that community, that existing, functioning, effective vehicle “for the good of the progressive cause” because of the large numbers of people that are disaffected and have dropped out of politics and so on and so forth…
Well, I find it disingenuous.
You attack, but say you are not attacking.
You suggest not working with or for or within, but then say that you are doing it so that we can build coalitions.
No, I don’t think so.
I think that Marcos and DailyKos are flawed. I think that other blogs and outlets should be built. I think that two-way communication between pols and operatives and those communities should grow. And there we agree.
But I do not think that the above require, need, or necessitate abandoning or dissing or putting down DailyKos, making suggestions or prescriptions about how progressives should act regarding DailyKos…and especially not using incorrect and inaccurate facts and statistics regarding the demographics of the working poor, the demographics of the Green Party or the Nader supporting factions of the Greens or the Socialist party, and especially not blanket statements that do not reflect the nature and content of the material or the posters at Kos.
Build BooMan or your other communities, absolutely.
But don’t tear down DKos to do it, and especially don’t try and tear down DKos and tell me you’re not.
I’d tear down DKos if I could.
But it’s not within my power to do so, nor anybody else’s here–and most people here don’t want to, they just want to be free of the online Tonton Macoutes who inhabit DKos.
On second thought, no, I wouldn’t tear down DKos even if I could. I wouldn’t want more of that lot over here.
Tonton Macoutes?
For someone who supposedly is reacting to oppression, to metaphorically compare a few verbal spats over framing, over philosophy, over direction, over party strategy and tactics to a group of people who literally and brutally tortured, butchered and murdered people is a bit much, and a bit overweening, dontcha think?
No, I actually think the phrase fits–ONLINE TonTon Macoutes. Not wielding actual machetes, mind you, but verbal ones.
Many of the folk who migrated here were called, among other things, mentally ill for daring to perceive that Ginger/MaryAnne advert as sexist and offencive–not to mention the now-infamous “menstruating she-devils”.
If those aren’t verbal machetes, I don’t know what could be considered their equivalent.
But then again, I’m one of those “ideological purists” you despise.
The original post referring to “online Tontons Macoutes” was not referring to anyone currently operating online.
It was a projection of a hypothetical future scenario where a (vichy-Democratic) government would use thugs with keyboards to drive thoughtful people offline and out of the discourse.
However, some seem to like the expression “online Tontons Macoutes” and are applying it to our current climate and current online personalities of note. I wanted to point out (as the author of the original post using that phrase) that that is not my personal view.
Of course, the quick and simple way to avoid such a future is to… stop spending so much time on blogs you have a problem with. You don’t need to post any suicide notes; just direct your energies elsewhere.
Long ago I stopped expecting dKos to have any intelligent political analysis of anything that didn’t have to do with Ohio or Florida or some other electoral-prize state… I realized the limitations of the site and its narrow focus… so I went off and started my own blog on the subject (or rather, worked hard on making my personal blog touch on these issues).
Now I have stopped expecting dKos to have any real sensitivity toward traditional and still very real Democratic allies such as feminists (and probably, soon, many others)… I realized the limitations of the tone the webmaster had spread over the site… so I have gone off and started exploring other ways to do what could be done.
For reference, here is the original post.
Sadly I must say, that this reminds me that I can imagine a different sort of nightmare than chafing under a repressive Bush Administration, and that would be, enduring a future Democratic administration which, desperate to maintain its grasp on the almighty White House, would employ some of these types of voices as their online Tontons Macoutes.
it being torn down. I used (and use) it to observe factions within the Democratic Party… in that sense it had a positive use for me.
This is not an intemperant statement, I said the exact thing at Dkos and directly to Armando. More than once.
But it has its uses… they are not the ones that the fervent supporters promulgate, at least not for me. And once I did participate differently than i have for close to a year or more. Much changed in the spring of 03, one might say it was the effect of the primaries, or perhaps it was other agenda at work. Hard to be certain…
SO viva Kos…
I do thnk (and had for some time) it should banner that the site is narrowly focused on party issues and (perhaps even a narrow) party agenda… that would be appropriate.
RD, do you have any idea that you are acting a bit like a syncophant for dkos? Why does it matter so much to you that people have a differing opinion of the site than you do? How is someone posting a diary at booman going to tear down dkos and if it did why do you care?
Markos makes his living off his blog and the places it has taken him. Good for him. I don’t get the hero worship.
You on the other hand seems to be willing to carry water for him just because. I don’t get it. If you are going to work this hard for a cause at least make it to your benefit not someone elses.
Wouldn’t your time be better spent over there writing brilliant diaries to educate the visiting freepers and CU refugees?
I was wondering the same thing, Teresa.
RedDan seems terrible exorcised about something.
What, I cannot imagine.
Kos himself is not worried; he INVITED us to go. 500 or 600 people did go. Kos’ numbers didn’t dip perceptibly and his blogad rates are the same as always. Kos has suffered not one bit quantitatively nor financially from his decision to show a whole lot of people the way to the street.
One may reasonably argue that DKos has suffered qualitatively, because the people who permanently or largely departed there were prolific and insightful commentators, but that doesn’t seem to worry Kos, either. If it did, he’d try to make peace with those who left; but he is happy they have gone, remember?
One of my friends who participated in the “pie fight” has a theory that Mr. Moulitsa is terribly uncomfortablel with his minor celebrity and even with the hero worship that has been undeservedly thrust upon him by some of the people who are regular commentators on his website–and that his inflammatory “pie fight” diary may have been an unconscious (or subconscious) attempt to deflate that celebrity and hero worship.
My theory differs from my friend’s: it is my contention that Mr. Moulitsa knew full well what he was doing when he posted that diary, and did so in order to brazely exhibit his contempt for a certain class of people posting on DKos (feminists, in other words–and I’m a man and consider myself a feminist) and encourage them to leave.
No, no mass bannings for the “tolerant” Mr. Moulitsa, just a coordinated effort by his online Tonton Macoutes to accuse the feminists on the site of being sex-hating, humourless prudes who are in dire need of psychiatric assistance (I myself was told eight times on the pie fight diary that I had a mental problem…because I criticised Mr. Moulitsa and the advert which began the entire sordid affair).
Mr. Moulitsa didn’t ban anybody because he had a far more effective method to purge his site of unwanted guests–he slung buckets of shit around so that the foul stench drove out those who could no longer hold their noses.
I am exercised because I do not want the repetition of the fractures that killed the Liberal Left.
I condemn sexism and racism and antisemitism when I see it on Kos, but I find that it is more effective and logical to remain there to push the envelope leftwards than it would be to start my own blog or devote my time to a smaller blog.
I want the Left to win.
I want the Left to gain more power and push a progressive agenda by any means necessary.
If that means swallowing my pride and arguing with miserable bastards, crazed conspiracy theorists, paranoid ranters, corporatist swine…then so be it.
If that means arguing with ideological purists with whom I agree on substance on basically every issue in order to keep them at my side in the fight to push the existing vehicles for exerting political power to the left, if that means attempting (and often failing) to temper my rhetoric and refrain from pointing out the basic political and theoretical flaws in 70% of what is being posted…
Then so be it.
“Ideological purists”…is that what we are at BoomanTribune are?
Thanks for labeling us so glibly. I’m certain that would come as quite a surprise to many here (I never knew that about myself, actually) who voted for Senator Kerry even though we disagreed with him on some important issues because we thought that ideological purity would get us four more years of Bush.
So we voted for Senator Kerry, ideologically impure as he is, and got four more years of President Bush anyway.
And now you have the nerve to tell us that we are “ideological purists”?
I am an ideological purist, too, shadowthief.
I voted for Kerry too, and I abhor the vacuous shell that the Democratic party continues to be.
I spent years and years organizing, fighting, and trying to build alternative parties. I voted for Nader in 2000. I was and remain active in the Socialists and in contact with many Greens.
But I am desperate.
The Democratic Party is the only organization that has the name recognition, money, and reach that we need to break the stranglehold.
It is a pitifully flawed vehicle filled with some pretty lame characters.
But what else is there?
How else are we going to push?
O, Canada!
I condemn sexism and racism and antisemitism when I see it on Kos, but I find that it is more effective and logical to remain there to push the envelope leftwards
So get to it, what are you wasting your time here?
If you are truly just exercised because I do not want the repetition of the fractures that killed the Liberal Left. then PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, go work where it started, on Kos. Go get him to really apologize.
Don’t come here kicking the victim!
I’m tired of your incessant comments, defending him and belittling us again. Your comment above, something like that it was just a little bad writing by someone who was human, show that you do nothing but defend him yourself. You are not here to decrease the fractures. Besides, there’s nothing you can do. Kos said what he said and stands by it.
You’re only perpetuating the same fight, continuing to act like the people who left are the ones being fractious.
Go take your incessant writing back to Kos, and get them to change. We are not going to back down again, to make you feel better.
RD. i can see where you’re aiming in your dialgue here.. but i differ.. and i feel many differ from you in the way you choose your syntax.
You say that you want the LEFT to win. I want to people the reactionaries currently in power call the left to win.
That is to say, I want values that many in the left hold dear to become the mainstream values.. but by no means do I wish an ideology of any stripe to hold sway over us. There are compassionate actions and selfish actions. Right choices and wrong choices. By arbitrarily picking sides and calling one left and one right doesn’t do anyone any favors. On the contrary, i feel it numbs the mind.
I’m a feminist, egalitarian, aspiring writer and a proud hermaphrodite, and I enjoy those categories. I celebrate them.
…but I wont be ruled by them!!
In addition to the other insightful observations, I find it rather amusing that departing from dKos constitutes a fracturing of the American left. Either that’s a deliberately silly remark, or an unfortunately obtuse belief.
The American left is quite a bit bigger than a blog business, even one as profitable and populated as dKos. And if a fracture happens over values, then let it fracture. I’m not married to any political movement that treats me and 53% of the population as potential breeder slaves — or that such concerns just don’t fit into the “important shit.”
You claim such high-minded intentions about improving dKos … so why don’t you act on them, instead of giving us Gilliard-like blame-the-victim logic? You don’t like that many of us left dKos? Then fix dKos!
Me, I got better shit to do — important shit, you know? I’ll go there to see what’s abuzz, but it’s repeatedly been made clear to me that the boys’ club doesn’t appreciate uppity women who don’t clear their feminist values with the men first. (And I’m not just talking about Kos.) So my inspiration to diary there again is low. Maybe some day I’ll feel emboldened to face the increasingly DU-like atmosphere, but in general I don’t think that’s the best way to engage in dialectic. Not for me, anyway. I still like to read some of my favorite diarists … but I confess I don’t have much interest in the discussions below anymore.
I would hate it if Booman became Kossified. If so, I’ll move on again. It’s a big world out there.
I’ve seen this kind of thing before. In general, when a group immerses itself into a task, it’s easy for the struggle to take over and devour the group’s dynamic. I think a lot of us felt that right after the election. But I fear that DailyKos has let its battle with the right color the tone of discussion within. Everyone’s just a bit touchy and cranky. Sometimes the only cure is to just take a breather. Step out and smell the roses.
And sometimes it’s best to just find a new challenge, a new front of the battle, a new focus that addresses one’s own values rather than some vague notion of backing members of a gang — any members, as long as they wear the right colors.
DailyKos isn’t everything for everyone. It doesn’t need to be. And as such, many of us have found we don’t need to be there. Some of us think it’s time for a new dialogue. That’s it. That’s all.
No, it is not.
And if you have followed any of the other commentary and posts I have made on this topic, you will find that I have not been sycophantic toward Kos either here, elsewhere or on DKos. In fact, I have been highly critical of what I think was bad politics, bad thinking, and bad ideology in his part, publically and visibly.
What I am defending is the vehicle, the overall DKos community.
And I am reacting to what I see as a series of attempts to derail a growing and useful tool for organizing, fundraising, and research.
If and until a replacement for Kos that is as good or better forms, then we need to maintain and contribute to that vehicle, as flawed or as imperfect as it or its creator may be.
I have no problems with growing and widening the sphere of progressive or liberal blogs…I DO have problem with tearing down the other ones for that purpose.
If that seems sycophantic to you, then that’s your perogative.
Yes, you are, and I’m listening. You have been confrontational in this thread, but I definitely take your point. It’s not in our best interests to bring down Daily Kos, the site. It may be in our best interests to provide an alternative viewpoint, and to stick with progressive issues in cases where that community calls it strategic to sell them off.
But the fracture issue is the issue. We absolutely need to make the Democratic Party a big tent which actively promotes the progressive issues that most of us can agree upon if we hope to win. I simply look at polls telling us a clear majority of Americans don’t want to mess with Roe v. Wade, that a clear majority of Americans support serious renewable energy efforts, and that a clear majority of Americans oppose plans to restrict the rights of gays and lesbians, and that an clear majority of Americans hate the Iraq War, and wonder why my Democratic leaders do not focus more clearly on these issues that would seem to have traction. In that light, I often find Daily Kos’ core thesis of “partisanship before principle” to be holding us back, in much the same way that the DLC has done.
if it was markos he woulda posted “fuck you, all you fuck-ups!”
Well, we’ve avoided profanity thus far. I don’t mind profanity if it fits into the context or is the best way to express one’s true sentiment.
Honestly, I doubt that Mr. Moulitsa cares that we left DKos, and I still fail to grasp why RedDan or any of the other self-appointed gatekeepers at DKos would care, either. We’re a small band of malcontents and Moulitsa–who invited us to “storm off in a huff” (I actually left in a minute and a huff)–is GLAD we’re gone. He misses us not one whit.
i was referring to his intemperate remarks.
at Dkos was/is user # 7…
I was UID #97, we have been discussing the issues of the DKos site (and the blog owner) for some time and we both were active in Legacy Kos and beyond….
I merely mention the numbers in passing, it ws the <cough> moderators who pushed the importance of some chronological hierarchy… LOL.
Intemperance is just around…
Wow, a numbering system. Just like the Stonecutters on “The Simpsons”?
Hey, they can’t keep me out–I’m the Chosen One!
Who controls the British crown?
Who keeps the metric system down?
We do! We do!
Who keeps Atlantis off the maps?
Who keeps the Martians under wraps?
We do! We do!
Who holds back the electric car?
Who makes Steve Guttenberg, a star?
We do! We do!
Who robs cave fish of their sight?
Who rigs every Oscar night?
We do! We do!
I said I was NOT invested in a chronological hierarchy, that was a game of the skrews, to name them appropriately.
I regret bothering to post to you. But Norn and I (and colleen and Marie and others) have had long discussion wrt to the so called “community” at Kos.
I leave you to your evening, Or day, in Switzerland.
Marisacat, I wasn’t poking fun at YOU, but at the moderators’ insistence on a “chronological hierarchy”. DKos increasingly DOES remind me of the Stonecutters you know–“Now let’s all get drunk and play billiards!”
Sigh, so many misunderstandings. Do forgive my sledgehammer wit. My love of “The Simpsons” is my Achilles heel, and has gotten me into trouble on more than one occasion.
Most of this I’m not going to respond to because it’s deliberately inflammatory. I said what I said, and I meant what I said. You can speculate about my hidden motivations if that amuses you, but it doesn’t interest me.
So are you saying that we should watch what we say? That Dworkin should have censored herself? That outspoken declarations of dearly held opinion should be quashed because they might give propaganda tools to the opposition?
It’s not that simple. Dworkin reached a smaller audience than she could have because of the framing of her message. It was undoubtedly therapeutic for her, and I don’t hold that against her, but it hurt the cause. If you want to get a message across, it’s your responsibility to frame it in a way that effectively communicates it to your audience. Dworkin — and countless other activists all over the political spectrum — failed in that way.
With dKos, the tone of the debate is counterproductive in the same way. At present, the venue itself diminishes the effectiveness of the messages broadcast there. Obviously, that’s just my opinion, however considered it may be. Equally obviously, you have thought it over and concluded otherwise. I think that’s as far as we’re going to get on this line of debate for the time being.
okay…
while i pretty much agree with nearly everything you wrote in this diary…you made the same silly mistake that….um….Markos once did when he belittled Gopusa.com’s traffic
Alexa only tracks people that use an Alexa browser…it is completely useless as a tool to measure who gets what traffic (plus all blogspot blogs are rated equally..i certainly don’t get the traffic atrios gets but we have the same ranking)
Alexa sucks…you’re better off using Truth Laid Bear (even though the bear is a right wing tool) his numbers for the traffic rankings come strictly from site meter (although if you use a different counter than site meter you’re not counted at tlb)
but yeah…if you look at Kos’ site meter…you’ll see that Markos’ failure to comprehend the anger at the pie ad did have an effect on his traffic…not in terms of how many original hits….but in terms of repeat visits…
There are too many great diaries on Dkos for folks that care to ignore…but people aren’t going there as many times a day…they’re coming to places like here instead.
can also cross post their diaries over here too.
“What’s important is that people not become so distraught — and many people are quite distraught — that they become discouraged and drop out of political discourse altogether, or feel that they can’t work effectively if they don’t follow the current blog fads.”
This puts it in a nutshell for me personally. I have spent years dealing with attitudes about women in jobs considered masculine, most of the time the only woman there, and was a minor pioneer in the places I worked. I just don’t have the endurance anymore to put up with a lot of BS about the things I hold extremely important. Gettin’ too old for that kind of stuff, and sometimes think it’s just not worth it. I can sit back and let the fertile women and men deal with things, it’s not gonna affect me personally.
But, then, I think that since I have been around from before there was Roe vs Wade, maybe one thing that I say, type or do might make the least little bit of difference.
But, why should I hang out where that little bit I can muster up is dismissed as irrelevant and I have to once again fight and defend it, when to me it is a life and death matter that should be understood as such, just as war is understood to be life and death?
It is as important to me as any war, because women will start dying if our rights are taken away. Desperate women, and men for that matter, will try just about anything.
during the Pie Fights, which I pointedly stayed out of. I didn’t abandon dKos, merely wanted to expand my horizons.
Each site has its plusses and minuses. I usually have both going at the same time on my computer.
I agree with much of what eodell says about dKos, but I don’t agree that it is a reason to abandon dKos. The main thing I don’t agree with is that I think dKos is MORE than Moulitsas and Armando and some of the other bigger egos on the site.
I do there what I do here: scan a lot of stuff, pass over the things I’m not interested in, and concentrate on the things that I am.
There’s lots of good stuff happening over at dKos. I just avoid reading the jerks.
I still read dKos. It’s a good source of news that would otherwise be lost in the MSM shuffle. Sometimes, I still post. What I don’t do is get involved in long arguments with the blowhards; I just say my piece and click on the next story. Arguments over there tend to generate more heat than light.
What really impresses me about this blog is that people are generally respectful and there are actually discussions where you can actually see people change their minds, or at least come to a deeper understanding of each other’s views. That happens at dKos, too, but much less frequently. I wish it would happen elsewhere more often. Seeing it here is very inspiring.
It is ALWAYS going to happen that as a site/community/group grows larger, it includes a bunch of annoying blowhards… just because a few people irritate a person, doesn’t mean it’s time to give up on them…
AND, I personally found your post offensive as one of the “crew” of kos… I love dailykos, nothing compares to it’s vastness, and message generating potential… sorry, but who in the media has heard of this blog?? (I do come here b/c the bigger the network the better!), stories move very slowly here, I come here 4 days later and there’s still a diary about something that happened 4 days ago on the recommend list.
I don’t think it’s fair to paint us all with the same brush b/c you’ve got a bee in your bonnet about a few things from kos. You’re not any better than us kos-users just b/c you’re an “activist” and not a “partisan politico”…. different people see the opportunity for change in different areas, I personally think it’s better to be part of a relatively cohesive, LARGE network of people than a small group of activists whose views vary so much on so many issues that it’s hard to come up with a coherent, concise message, but that’s just my opinion and I wouldn’t castigate you for differing…
anyway, I will still come here even tho I’m offended (pie anyone??!), but I’m shocked at your level of arrogance in believing you are the better of all of us on the left b/c your views are clearly “purer” than ours…
Oh, and I’m as liberal and “activist” as you can get, just also pragmatic and practical.
by asking “pie anyone?” you are deliberately taunting those who were the recipients of mean spirited, blatant sexism over at dkos.
you are also missing the point entirely when you compare your personal feelings of being offended by criticism of dkos with the way in which many were offended by the misogynists at kos. sexism and misogyny are weapons in a cultural arsenal aimed at keeping women from achieving true equality. when women see those weapons being used, they know those weapons represent a larger mission and that other weapons in the quiver include violence, degradation, economic impoverishment, and sexual abuse and exploitation. the sexism at kos was part and parcel of a larger cultural oppression of a group of human beings that historically was relegated to the role of chattel.
your personal feeling of being offended by criticisms of kos doesn’t compare. if you weren’t or aren’t offended by the sexism and misogyny at kos, fine. and if, as a member of the kos “crew” you feel the need to scout out criticisms of kos where ever they may be, and come to his defense in those arenas, that’s fine too. but please don’t do around dismissing and minimizing the reality of cultural oppression of 53% of americans as you do it.
that said, i agree that we need to stop talking about kos hear a boo. if we have something to say to or about kos, we should say it there. here we should work on building a welcoming, respectful, thoughtful blog that may be smaller (and sometimes 4 days behind), but at least doesn’t enable entrenched cultural oppression.
Thankfully I missed most of the Pie Fight stuff over at DailyKos and was only filled in on it by others after the fact.
However, I think your three points about activists really miss the mark. In my opinion <u>the</u> most important thing for liberal activists to figure out is how to work on their issues without fighting and working against other liberal activists working on their issues.
Whether people like to admit it or not we are a big tent and we have many, many people that are extremely passionate about their issues. Those issues are sometimes at odds with each other or certain groups get irritated because everyone isn’t paying attention to their issue.
That needs to stop if we ever hope to be effective. I personally think this is part of the reason why congressional Democrats are perceived as not having a concise message. They are constantly trying to please all of these groups at the same time and as a result they don’t ever accomplish anything. You’ll probably notice that the other side doesn’t do this yet they have just as many diverse groups with different interests.
So my advice would be to stop fighting with DailyKos – they bring something to the table and have a purpose just like other liberal blogs have a purpose. The fighting doesn’t do anything but hurt our collective interests in getting our ideas out there on the internet.
At any rate, I’m glad to have found Booman Tribune, the writing here is much more intimate and in a lot of cases interesting. I just wish it wasn’t because of all this Pie Fight nonsense.
We need to distance ourselves from Kos. Your point says it best, the most important thing for liberal activists to figure out is how to work on their issues without fighting and working against other liberal activists working on their issues.. That includes Kos.
Kos thinks he can build a coalition based on what he thinks is important, and that it’s ok to tell people who disagree with him to leave. Well, Dems just can’t afford to tell all women to leave. Kos has discredited himself and, by extension, his ability to be effective in fighting for his party.
So, we need to build voices for our party that reflect the bigger, better tent. Not some narrow tent that trashes women as special interests.
Kos is young and brash, but has not learned any humility. What’s worse than his sexism, for which I have seen much evidence, is his unwillingness to consider different views, from people he should respect. Also, he seems Bush-stubborn about refusing to admit a mistake.
We need voices for this party who are fighting for all of us, not telling big groups to get the heck out.
Again, I’m a woman, never felt victimized, please stop assuming you speak for all women.
troll rate me into oblivion now… đŸ™‚
That is your opinion. It does not reflect the opinion of this site or of the 600 or 700 people who decided to voice their concerns in a more receptive place and chose to come and be a part of our community here at Booman.
I am a woman too, and you do not speak for me. I came to booman before any of the pie wars fighting. I found the climate here much to my liking.
I really want to encourage all of you to keep the problems of daily kos over at daily kos. They cannot be solved here. Perhaps they can be solved there. We like to treat each other with respect here, something that many of us found lacking in other places on the web. So if you wish to state your opinions, as everyone has a right to do. . .PLEASE keep them respectful.
I did not say that I spoke for you… what I did say was that there is no voice of descent here in this forum b/c most of the people over here are the people who left, so you have a near one-sided discussion going on… so what I said was that these types of kos-hating diaries are sad and that they don’t speak for all women or all feminists or all the women who post on blogs, or all liberal women as the diarist seems to imply…
Other than this diary, I have seen no ongoing discussion here about dkos. . .other than those that post at both sites and share information. . . and those are not posts with dkos as the subject matter.
We are not obsessed with dkos and what did or didn’t or does or does not go on there. Many of us read and post there as well as here.
I am asking, respectfully, as just one person at BMT, please stop coming over here to stir this issue up continually. We don’t care about dkos and what you or others are doing there. Those who do care go there and participate themselves. We are not your divorced step-children. You are not the “social worker” go between to put the family back together. BMT has its own identity, purpose, goals and community concerns that have nothing in particular to do with dkos or any other website or blog.
Please stop this contentious BS. We are all capable of getting as many view points as we wish about any issues that concern us. And really, taking us to task about “preaching to the choir” is pretty much pot=kettle.
Excuse me, but I didn’t stir this issue up and don’t accuse me of doing so. I DISAGREE with the poster of this diary, and I can come here whenever the hell I want to say so.
Sorry for the language but do not tell me what or what not to do just because you disagree with me. Would you prefer that this site was merely an echo chamber for your own perspective. God, how dare you judge me like this…
I don’t want the community to be fractured, it sucks, it sucks that people felt they had to leave, it sucks that you say I’m not welcome to say what I wish here despite the apparent “tolerance” of viewpoints…
And don’t tell me that things here have nothing to do with kos just b/c they don’t mention kos by name… there were all kinds of diaries with pie in the subject, so lets not forget who we are, many people here are saying stuff without any counter balance. I like this community a lot, but I also like kos and I’m going to defend both of them in many instances; Do not tell me what I can and cannot say b/c it makes you feel uncomfortable.
Remember, I didn’t start this diary, one of the people you refer to as “us” did… I merely entered my input, and it’s not for you to say whether that input is valid or not.
It was not my intention to tell you what you can or cannot do. Just as you are, I was merely suggesting my own opinion. I just find it hard to understand why discussing dkos problems here is any solution. Seems more meaningful to me if the solutions to problems at dkos were to be sought and worked on at dkos.
What I like or dislike is hardly important to anyone but myself. However, just like you, I chose to voice my opinion.
Very sorry, that was the wrong quote and not yours.
this is what I meant to quote:
I understand what you want, but it seems that others want something different. Perhaps we might all consider leaving it at that.
i feel that the 2 rating you were just given is completely unwarranted.
It’s not unwaranted, she told me to leave and not talk about what I wish to talk about in a diary regarding the subject I was talking about… that is not what being in this “community” is apparently about, and it is not what she stated herself in telling me that this was a more accepting community.
I apologize if I made you feel I wanted you to leave or shut up. That was not my intent. It is just as Booman stated in his comments, and others have suggested and indeed a general agreement in our community that to keep bringing up these issues. . .and no you did not bring it up, the writer of the diary did. . .does not serve the best interests of either group of people, whether they participate in both communities or only one of the communities.
I haven’t run across more than one or two here who are actually anti-dkos. Most that I encounter are “to each his own.” As I stated previously, we do not wish to become a place that bashes other blogs or web sites, or individuals. There really are more important and more interesting things to attend to.
If I came across to you as intolerant, then I apologize. You are welcome here and you are welcome to express your opinions as you choose. It would be appreciated if we could all keep it civil and respectful, myself included. If I failed in that then I am truly sorry.
Thanks for voicing your opinions and concerns. I do understand where you are coming from, and it does appear that we may just want to agree to disagree on the substance.
Hehe… you guys really are tolerant…
this is awesome… the discussion is actually progressing somewhere… seriously… đŸ™‚
Anyway, I’m glad we all understand where we all stand… and I apologize if I seem confrontational, but the diary title was calling my name bigtime… I just think it would suck to start that infighting BS again…
so as long as everyone is still on the same side… then I think that’s great…
i agree with you. i, for one, have no plans to post any diary on the recent events at the other place. i also think that after today i will no longer comment on Dkos-related posts here at the pond.
I completely understand why many people, myself included, turned to Booman Tribune as an alternative to Daily Kos. But I feel bad for Booman when so many diaries here are devoted to what’s going on over there. IMHO, it reduces this site to “not Kos” status, and Booman and the many other people who dedicate themselves to developing stories for this blog deserve more consideration than that.
loki,
we don’t troll rate anyone into oblivion over here
but trolls.
i know what you mean though. i’ve been troll rated into oblivion before.
but never here. and i’m saying exactly the same things.
you are clearly unaware of the facts.
and by the way, this is just my opinion, but if, as a woman, you’ve never felt victimized, then maybe you aren’t paying attention.
excellent point, i completely agree with your post. i’m distancing myself as you suggest. many of us are. IMHO sexism wasn’t discouraged at kos, it was enabled. it was suggested we leave, we did. end of story. no way will i be part of a community, online or otherwise, i have to battle with constantly. i’m grown tired of threads filled with wrong-headed, sexist invective and i will not be party to trashing women as special interests (as you so succinctly say). i’m glad i left, too. i won’t be going back much at all. i no longer toy with the idea of being a “kossack”, the term has no appeal at all.
Maybe one reason it won’t die is because of the disappointment of “losing” Kos.
If I may speak of my own experience. I found Kos shortly before the pie wars. I was thrilled to find this liberal corner of the world. Finally, people telling truth to power! But when the pie started flying I found myself feeling really out of place at Kos and decided to leave. I felt a great disappointment or loss at this, thinking, Just when I thought I had found it, it turns out not to be the place’. And ‘But I need Kos, where else will I find the important liberal stories, where else will I be able to speak with a huge community?’
But now I see those thoughts as being in error. There are many, many places on the web for progressives to hang out. Kos is no longer to my mind the be-all, end-all liberal refuge.
So what I’m trying to say is that we need not mourn for losing Kos, we have plenty of places more suited to us to choose from, and also we don’t need to continue working through any “guilty” feelings, like we are abandoning liberal goals by not sticking around at kos.
Kos is Kos. We are Booman Tribune. And there is nothing wrong with that.
I want to clarify that I was not in any way trying to defend Kos – he is perfectly capable of doing that himself and I don’t want to be involved in it.
My point however is general and exemplified by this situation. However, if Kos is too hot of an issue for some it can be easily applied to virtually any other issue we face today.
The reason that I no longer want to associate myself with dKos is that I think it is trending in a direction that will cost Democratic candidates at the polls and hamper our efforts to oust the right wing radicals currently running our government.
Markos’s statement, “Feel free to storm off in a huff. Other deserving bloggers could use the patronage. Me, I’ll focus on the important shit.” sent the message that he does not consider the issues that many women consider core values “the important shit.”
It really doesn’t matter what anyone, male or female, thinks of the ad. What matters is that many people who are passionate about politics heard “you are not important.”
This is not a message Democrats can afford to send to any group. If we do not intend to fight for the rights of all Americans, then what do we stand for? Why should anyone support us?
Markos isn’t the Democratic party or a spokesman for it. And he would deny that he considers women – or any other group – not important. But that is the message he is sending, and I think it is a disastrous one for progressives. I just want to go to work on electing progressive Democrats as far away as I can get from that message.
There is a dangerous idea floating around that the only way liberals can form a coalition, or consensus, or have a unified message is to sacrifice the rights of certain groups. This is a losing strategy. Please read eodell”s eloquent explanation of this on another thread today.
Or a more humorous version of it – Of course, a few hobbits will have to be killed
Janet speaks for me as well.
But in my own words, I left DKos because I was genuinely disappointed with the rash of anti-women contributers. It made me realize that I don’t want to be caught up with teaching ignorant people manners. I want intelligent conversation about important issues. I may not chime in all that often, but I do read a lot. I am tired of the tirades and the angst and the belittling of people. Heck, in my first few months at DKos, I posted several messages about just being civil and nice. I thought that is what they wanted. But then, people who thought the elections were stolen were tin foil hat freaks, and people who demanded the right to choose were single issue freaks and the women who balked at sexist ads were womens’ studies freaks and now people who want Bush and Cheney impeached are non-reality freaks.
But, mostly I left as a statement. I admit that I wish more did. A serious dip, even for a week, in his usership would have been really good. But, I can’t make people see things my way and that is ok. I did what I had to do and I have no regrets. I love BooMan and never miss the frenetic pace of DKos.
I think that your attitude would, if it were prevalent, contribute to even more and worse losses for the center-left-liberal-progressive side of the spectrum.
You “got tired” of ill-mannered people with different opinions and experiences than you?
You were “disappointed” that there are a large number of sexist pigs who call themselves liberals? And many of whom actually DO support everything liberal under the sun, even as they reveal themselves to be hypocrites in person?
Sorry to be harsh, but that’s just lazy.
Winning the fights that we face, pushing back the tide of arrogance, ignorance, and bloodthirsty bigotry that is swamping our nation is going to require getting offended and working with those that offend us. It is going to require disagreeing to the point of blows on some issues and fighting side by side on others, it is going to require dealing with people that you find personally repugnant…except for the fact that you need them and they need you.
Do you really want political and social change. or are you looking for a comfortable conversation?
Both are fine, and I do not judge, but if you want the former, then you have to deal with some unsavory people…and if you want the latter then you need to find the right place and space.
There comes a time when educating the ignorant is a waste of time. It’s 2005 and there is no reason for women to have to continue to reason with the unreasonable.
There comes a time when educating the ignorant is a waste of time.
Educating the ignorant is NEVER a waste of time, if only for the onlookers who are watching, hearing, or reading the educational exchange.
It’s 2005 and there is no reason for women to have to continue to reason with the unreasonable.
It’s 2005 and women have fewer guaranteed rights to choice, fewer options to choose from, and fewer people fighting directly for them.
And you are willing to cast aside a flawed ally in disgust?
Marcos and the people at DKos are on OUR side, they are on YOUR side – the VAST majority are, anyway.
If you cannot be bothered, are too tired, are too depressed or angry to hash this shit out with ideological close allies, with flawed liberals…then how are you going to get an ignorant working class stiff to vote for your proposition, to support your referendum, to vote for your liberal candidate?
will never learn because they don’t want to. It is much better to go on and talk and organize with those who are not determinedly ignorant.
You go knock your head against the wall if you want. Women should just take their majority status and roll over those who want to deny us our rights or tell us to “wait”.
Which women?
Women like Condi Rice, Laura Bush, Margaret Thatcher, Ann Coulter, Phyllis Schlafly, Madeleine Albright?
Come on Teresa, you know better than that.
You know that women are divided along class and race and ideological lines.
You know that there are Coulters and Malkins and Noonans and Courics and any number of idiotic, rightwing, racist, sexist (self-hating?), imperialist, corporatists, theocratic women out there who would just as quickly shove their piggish agenda down your throat as Pat Buchanon would.
Given a choice between a woman like Condoleezza Rice and a man like Marcos Moulitsas, who do you pick?
what a stunningly pointless and asinine comment that is.
Women should just take their majority status and roll over those who want to deny us our rights or tell us to “wait”.
My point is that the majority status of women is based only on plumbing.
The ideological divisions between women, between blacks, between hispanics, between men, all fall along class lines.
My question was pretty clear – if the majority status of women is invoked, then are you willing to make common cause with Peggy Noonan and her ideological cohort?
The ideological divisions between women, between blacks, between hispanics, between men, all fall along class lines.
That’s a gross oversimplification and an inaccurate one. Ideological divisions are not class based. If that were true, we wouldn’t be beating our heads and asking how so many people could vote against their own “class” interests. Class doesn’t explain Bill Clinton or George Bush.
We’ve had a male majority from the get go. Does that male make you the bedfellow of George Will, Dick Cheney, Rush Limbaugh and Rick Santorum?
What a narrow world you live in to suppose that is all the choice we have.
Fortunately, we’re much too well-informed to fall for your false dichotomy.
thanks for playing
Oh come on, Teresa! Answer! Given a choice between Republican welfare reform and Democratic welfare reform, wich woud you pick? Given a choice between Republicans rolling back the Endangered Species Act and Democrats rolling back the Endangered Species Act, wich woud you pick? Given a choice between Republican parental notification laws and Democratic parental notification laws, wich woud you pick?
That wasn’t the choice RedDan offered. The choice he offered was:
So the answer “neither” is perfectly appropriate. Not accepting Republican positions in no way obligates us to support the Kos position that our principles have to be subsumed by whatever Kos believes is best for the Democratic party.
I agree totally, Andi.
Yes, Mr. Swift — I mean, Clarke — as I noted below I had a distinct failure of reading comprehension. My apologies. đŸ˜‰
Oh come on, Teresa! Answer!
I’m giving you a ‘4’ for what I assume to be irony because, of course, there isn’t much difference between Dem or repub welfare deformation etc. Which is the dilemma we’re constantly confronted with by the muscular operative spin on dKos.
If one’s chief or even a major concern is social policy a ‘centrist’ democratic policy is not something worth fighting for. I would prefer to participate and build institutions and communities which don’t regularly denigrate and marginalize major constituencies when they speak the truth.
I’m giving me a minus 4 for missing the snark. I must read closer.
I’m giving myself a minus four for copy-pasting the same two typos three times.
Need more caffeine.
Democratic welfare reform was plucked whole cloth from Republican proposals. Clinton cynically took popular misconceptions about welfare, fostered by GOP propaganda, and ran with them.
The overwhelming majority of welfare recipients were on welfare for less than two years already. And three-quarters of them were children.
The problem with welfare wasn’t that it gave help to people who needed it. It was that it withdrew that help faster than they could increase their own earned income, as the Republicans intended. Clinton gave credibility to the Reagan myth of the welfare queen as only a Democrat leader could. It was like Nixon going to China.
All those people out there still need help, and Clinton screwed them for short-term political gain. In the long term, the damage was a lot worse than it would have been if it had been rammed through by a Republican majority. It’s always that way with craven compromises. How much has the anti-war effort been hindered by the way the Democrats all caved and voted for the authorization?
I’d rather have Republicans doing the wrong thing than have Democrats help them do it. That’s the real choice here, not the false dilemma that was posed before.
Truer words were never spoken.
Very funny post btw. Had to give you a 4 for that one.
You comment,above, that one poster should not have gone to Daily Kos to return[ed] with a bad attitude and with, I interpreted based on your remarks, an intent to increase, rather than decrease the tension
Well, I call you on the same.
Here’s your comments:
Given a choice between a woman like Condoleezza Rice and a man like Marcos Moulitsas, who do you pick?
or
My point is that the majority status of women is based only on plumbing.
So, I want to ask you … why are you posting here? Is all I see is an intent to increase, rather than decrease, tension. You have come over here on many threads about Kos, posting silly arguments and being rude.
Why can’t you just accept that some of us, because of Kos’s own behavior, have made a thoughtful decision to leave. And furthermore, to discuss the ways his attitudes are detrimental to finding a good direction for our party. Just as he has every right to say women’s issues are not important, we have every right to say that those thoughts place Kos on the wrong side of the Democratic Party that we want?
So, unless you can quit trying to get silly arguments going, why don’t you follow your own advice and not come over here?
I am here to argue my point of view on a topic I care about.
Your criticism of those comments is noted, and I apologize for their tone – I think you took them out of context, but regardless, I apologize for broad brushing on such an important topic.
I care about crafting a powerful coalition.
I think that Kos’ statements and the statements of several commenters over at DKos were detrimental to the creation of a powerful coalition…and I said so there.
I also think that long-term grudge-carrying, retributional vendettas and wedge-driving are bad for building broad coalitions, and that is something that I want to argue against directly and in person.
Would you rather I spent my energy cutting and pasting and putting together a nasty and sarcastic broadside against Booman or eodell, posted it on my Kos diary, and let the vengeful hotheads over their go nuts?
Or would you rather I argued myself, directly, in person here, took the heat I deserve when I make stupid comments, and respond in kind when I think others have made stupid comments?
As for why I do not comment much on other diaries here? Most of the best ones are cross posted. Many of the others are outside my areas of interest or expertise.
I want to spend some time figuring out the why’s and how’s of getting people with disparate, and sometimes clashing interests working together for common benefit.
I am not very good at it, but that’s what I am trying to figure out.
That’s why I am here.
I just read Lorraine’s amazing diary about “are we moral” and the concept of Hochma…
What can I say over there that is any better than what has been said already?
Rather, why not apply Hochma to this situation?
The only person I see that is attempting to consistently and stubbornly drive wedges here is YOU
I care about crafting a powerful coalition.
I think that’s something most everyone here probably has in common.
It’s not going to be based around Markos Moulitsas. He lacks the the personality traits necessary to build such a coalition. (That’s not, incidentally, a slam. Most people lack those traits.)
It’s not going to be based around any particular website, either. It’s too big for that. Which was the meat of the original point.
It is going to be built upon civility, mutual respect and real discussion — which means talking thoughtfully and listening thoughtfully — and that can happen anywhere. Where it happens is irrelevant; that it does happen is all that matters at this stage.
Really changing the country and the world is going to take a lot more than winning elections. It will take more than one venue, and it will take more than any number of leaders, because it has to happen in the hearts and minds of millions upon millions of people for it to be more than empty rhetoric.
It starts here. It starts wherever you happen to be. Pick the best starting place you can find and run with it.
There are:
Some who see;
Some who see when they are shown;
Some who do not see.
I left DKos because I concluded that the proprietor of the website is someone who does not see and will never be persuaded to see–and the website takes its tone and direction from him.
I am, by the way, so godawful weary of people who conflate fighting for civility on DKos with fighting for the future of America. Get over yourselves; most of the people who left (like me) were active in politics since the 1960s or 1970s (or even earlier), long before Al Gore invented ANY of the Internets.
DKos is but one small corner of the political universe. Mr. Moulitsa got all puffed up with his own importance and forgot that very simple fact.
We don’t need him. We pleaded to work things out and got shown the door.
I, for one, walked through it and have not looked back.
And there are certain DKossers (including one who has posted a comment on this diary, AHEM) who taunt people who left and then returned–so much for welcoming back the prodigals, eh? What rank hypocrisy.
Yep, I taunted you…because you returned with a bad attitude and with, I interpreted based on your remarks, an intent to increase, rather than decrease the tension.
Well, so much for the “you want us back”–and you appointed yourself gatekeeper at DailyKos. Nice. And you don’t even get paid for it? You’re being cheated–some compensation surely is due for such Herculean labours.
I certainly want people to come back — if they are interested in contributing.
Frankly there are many folks over there that I think should be banned (if not hunted down and beaten with a stick) for being so stupid and shortsighted about this and many other issues.
But that’s politics.
And don’t try and tell me that “coming back” includes nasty, snarky, sarcastic bullshit, because it doesn’t.
“Interested in contributing” = only talking about the issues that Kos wants them to talk about.
Kos doesn’t want feminist nor environmentalist issues on his blog. Kos said that his blog cannot be all things to all people.
It’s his blog, not yours, and he makes the rules. Or are you an officially designated emissary from DailyKos? If not, then you speak only for yourself, and no one here has any expectation of a civil welcome–and you have established your own system for evaluating who is and is not “contributing”.
By my estimation, I can contribute by criticising the internal operation of a website and point out hypocrisy and flaws and inconsistencies.
Or is internal dissent not allowed on DKos? I know that Americans who criticise President Bush’s establishment of gulags around the globe are called “unpatriotic” because they are criticising the Commander in Chief when the nation is “at war”–so, in the same vein, I am not to go to DailyKos to criticise Mr. Moulitsa in any way, shape, or form, lest I be accused of not “contributing” to the blog?
That’s quite an interesting theory. Unfortunately, I have seen its application elsewhere and do not wish to subject myself to it when I do not have to do so.
Bullshit and you know it…
Kos doesn’t tell ANYONE on the site what to talk about… no one!
Gawd, stand up for yourself… if you think you’re not being heard, talk louder…
There comes a point when, by continually talking louder, everyone is screaming and no one can hear. The point isn’t just that it shouldn’t be necessary to yell to be heard, it’s that once it gets that far, no one is really listening anyway.
What’s really disturbing to me is this attitude that those who left dKos have to come back, as if by changing venues the whole left wing of American politics is somehow weakened. No one changed their political affiliations, and I rather doubt that the refugees are going to be voting for Republicans now. If unity is that important to Kossacks, a little civility will go a long way. It would, at least, prevent future blowouts, which are pretty much inevitable with things the way they are now.
It was probably a mistake for me to post my personal analysis of the situation — it apparently upsets far too many people and obscures the main message I was trying to get out, which was this: We can be effective with or without dKos, and contrary to the opinions held by some over there, our diversity helps rather than hurts. Don’t be discouraged. It definitely wasn’t my intention to re-start the dKos flamewar. For that, I apologize.
But you live and you learn. I learned a lot, both positive and negative lessons, at dKos. I’ve already learned a lot here, and continue to learn; the mixed responses to this diary, for example, tell me a lot about how I can better frame the next one.
Wow, thank you for that post.
I agree that diversity will help us, but I also think that a message that is coherent and concise is important, which is why I think it unfortunate if people leave the community that kinda started it all, altogether. I understand having a new primary location, and having a more receptive group for your particular issues, but strong feminist women leaving (and never returning) to kos is only going to lead to a gap in perspective over there that cannot be remedied by the people who don’t realize they’re the problem.
That is my point, the web/net/network of many different blogs, groups etc is great, but when it comes time to be on message, I want that message stable and consistent while still maintaing advocacy for our particular concerns internally.
I was thinking this morning that it’ll probably lead to good things that there is this branching going on, I just don’t want to see it develop into infighting (which I found the title of the diary to be indicating) amongst those on the left, we need to take everyone in and not allow differences on some issues (important as they are) to detract from the big picture; regime change…!
I understand if people need time to deal with what has happened, but I just hope we all become a community again that isn’t hating after one another for old wounds that need not be fought over for all eternity. Whether you come and be main posters again at kos or not, I hope that we all keep perspective on what is important and support eachother when the time comes instead of blowing ourselves up like we like to do often…
(It was so nice for you respond the way you did and now I understand what you meant, and I think you understand what I mean and despite the views from some others, I will continue to post here).
đŸ™‚
LOL!
be careful when we toss around the term “ignorant working class stiff.” Those are people who, for economic reasons, could be convinced to vote in a progressive manner.
To label them “ignorant” is to dismiss them and their life experiences out right. This is how the Republicans played Kerry, as a holier-than-thou-intellectual. There is a deep anti-intellectual tradition in society that likely can be traced to class divisions.
Working class stiffs perhaps did not have the luck of birth that I know that I had. We will not win converts from the mount, but from the porch, looking them in the eye, with a firm handshake. It will take a willingness to listen to their life stories and to craft programs that can help them and their children.
I agree, and point taken.
“be careful when we toss around the term “ignorant working class stiff.” Those are people who, for economic reasons, could be convinced to vote in a progressive manner.
To label them “ignorant” is to dismiss them and their life experiences out right. This is how the Republicans played Kerry, as a holier-than-thou-intellectual. There is a deep anti-intellectual tradition in society that likely can be traced to class divisions.
Working class stiffs perhaps did not have the luck of birth that I know that I had. We will not win converts from the mount, but from the porch, looking them in the eye, with a firm handshake. It will take a willingness to listen to their life stories and to craft programs that can help them and their children.”
Thank you for pointing this out. Many working class stiffs are quite intelligent and have a basic practicality that can be appealed to, if not done in an overly intellectual way that seems patronizing. Phrases like “the great unwashed” tend to offend, because the working class showers just as much, they just work at more physical jobs most of the time so they may have a bit more actual sweat. Not like the sit down jobs.
There is a natural tendency to be suspicious of people that have big city college educated attitudes, because so many have tried to take advantage of the regular folks and treated them like they were beneath them. A firm handshake, looking a person in the eye, and being willing to take a little bit of time to do some small talk to find a little common ground before getting into the meat of things goes a long way. You know, the weather, what the roads were like, how ya doin’ kind of stuff. Makes everyone seem a little more human.
You might be surprised at just how smart many of the working class people are, once you get to know them, especially when it comes to surviving.
“Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.”
Sometimes, you’ve got to pick your battles. Many of us go to places like dKos, BooManTrib, and others not because we want to engage in heated debate, but because we want to become more informed about the issues so that we can engage those in our personal circles in heated debate. I’m going to have a lot more success in presenting a cogent argument to members of my own family than I am some faceless stranger who doesn’t know me from Adam (or Eve in my case). If we spend all our time and energy trying to convince those who are “allegedly” our allies that we matter, we’re not going to have the energy to make our points with those in our personal RL circles.
Or maybe that’s just me…
And you are willing to cast aside a flawed ally in disgust?
Seems like it’s not so much a matter of flawed allies as it is people who call themselves your ally and then sell you down the river.
I’m perfectly willing to do the work to persuade people to my point of view. (And to keep an open enough mind that I can be persuaded.)
But as an environmentalist, the first few weeks of the Clinton administration serve as a good model for what we’re seeing here: Democrats promise support for our issues, gain victory (at best) due to our efforts, and then turn around and give one legislative victory after another to opposition.
that the enemy of my enemy is my enemy’s enemy, no more. Nothing to me by choice. There’s plenty of room out there for bad guys and undesirables of many stripes, and sometimes they go after each other while I’m around. Fights can and usually do go on regularly in which I have no dog at all.
The fact that someone’s flinging rocks at a guy I don’t like does NOT mean that I should either join in on the rock-flinging or assume that the flinger and I are henceforth and forevermore best buds. So I won’t get in his way, I won’t try to stop him flinging…. but I also will not give him MY rocks, nor will I either dispose of them myself or stop practicing.
Sorry to rant but there’s just way way too much of this “the opposite of bad guy is good guy” thinking out there… I read there, I post there, I read here, I post here, and I’m of the opinion that here and there are separate communities with separate goals and objectives. They’re not necessarily enemies but they’re also not necessarily working for the same thing except in certain very VERY limited aspects of certain specific circumstances… and it’d be a mistake to lean very heavily on the idea that they are.
Chastising the ignorant is at best a waste of time, and as often as not just builds the armor.
Education is a lot harder than chastisement, but infinitely more valuable.
Even two year olds can understand what you are saying when you tell them something once.
Anyone who doesn’t understand Choice, equality etc… doesn’t want to.
Understanding is not binary, ie either you understand or don’t, but incremental. It’s not taking a for or against position, but grasping interconnections. Internalizing the two Party system does not lead to informative discussion.
a sentence saying ‘With all due respect,’ it’s often a hint that they intend to continue disrespectfully. It’s sort of like saying ‘no offence’ or ‘But I don’t mean you, of course.’
I intend to be blunt. Possibly to the point of incivility. I guess others will have to judge that one.
(Hint to others reading — if you decide you need to hide this, I won’t be offended. Distinguishing between blunt and uncivil is not always my strong point)
As far as I’m concerned, you have a credibility problem. Having read your posts here and at Steve Gilliard’s blog, I can’t and don’t trust your good intent. I don’t believe that you have my back.
Here’s why:
From what I’ve seen of your posting record here, your main purpose seems to be a cat herding exercise. To mix my metaphor a little, you seem to be attempting to round up the stroppy teenagers who stormed out of the house wearing too much makeup, and persuade them to go home like good little girls and boys.
And while I see plenty of posts to those who have left, telling them (often in a hectoring tone, like that in the post to which I am responding) that they need to stay and fight — I don’t see many examples of you doing your bit in that fight. Certainly there was no shortage of misogynistic commentary in Gilliard’s blog, with which you could have taken issue, had you so chosen. (And as for Nyberg and Gilroy, which posts of late do you refer to? References would be appreciated.)
Have you criticised kos publicly? Yes. Sure. But from what I’ve seen, usually as part of a response to those who have left over this brou-ha-ha — and as part of a broader effort to — well, on further reflection, I’m not sure what the broader effort is, actually. To persuade them to go back to dKos? To persuade them to shut up in the interests of ‘unity’? To persuade them that they are politically irrelevant and weak because they chose to leave? To persuade them that you have the right to tell them what terrain they should choose to speak from and how they should speak? Who knows. I certainly don’t.
But your demeanour and conduct here do not inspire confidence or trust in me.
There’s a lot of truth to what you say, and you are correct that I could have responded more forcefully and more often to some of the horrific misogynistic crap I read on many sites…and the racist, anti-semtic, classist, elitist garbage as well…
But to be honest, I just don’t have the time to do all of it.
Furthermore, the postings of Amanda Marcotte, Majikthise, Shakespeare’s sister and many others are much better written and those people have much better founding in the material on this particular topic than I do.
I argue with them about the topic because I think their overall take is correct, but that some of their inferences about motivation and underlying thinking are incorrect.
Some of the woman hating crap I read makes me sick, but what can I say to them that Amanda or Nancy or yourself cannot say much better?
What I can do is try and convince you not to scrap the whole lot because of the actions of a minority or the ignorance of flawed people.
There’s a lot of truth to what you say, and you are correct that I could have responded more forcefully and more often to some of the horrific misogynistic crap I read on many sites…and the racist, anti-semtic, classist, elitist garbage as well…
But to be honest, I just don’t have the time to do all of it.
Bingo. That’s exactly why many people have chosen to congregate here and on other blogs. They don’t have time to take out the garbage.
What I can do is try and convince you not to scrap the whole lot because of the actions of a minority or the ignorance of flawed people.
People like to have a peaceful, reflective place to come home to – not a huge, dysfunctional family.
I think it really is telling that we have to prioritize our lives to some degree and figure out what is good for us as well as stay away from what is bad for us. I am concerned about some blog postings giving us a false idea of the world anyway. We have an immensely negative view of the world’s state anyway with Bush’s war on most everything. To remove ourselves or distance ourselves occasionally is terribly important otherwise we create our own dittoheads in ourselves.
To a discussion of what we are for, rather than what we are against?
Please read and recommend Brian Schweitzer works for Native Americans.
As kansas says on that thread – “Yes! That’s who we are.”
Personally I’m way out left of old kos. I thought the way the hierarchy of his site handled what they framed as the “pie war”, but which actually ended up being a vicious assault on women, was abysmal. I still hang out there sometimes and post comments. But to be honest dailykos just seems totally boring these days with its middle of the road democrat talking points and obsessions with Karl Rove taking the site over. Still I intend staying there just to occaisionally comment on some of the stock beliefs that need challenging imho.
to the vast majority of Democrats in the US.
True.
But why is that important?
picture. Dkos in an of itself doesn’t matter.
Well, you seem to think it’s all terribly important. By abandoning DKos, we are abandoning hope itself:
If you cannot be bothered, are too tired, are too depressed or angry to hash this shit out with ideological close allies, with flawed liberals…then how are you going to get an ignorant working class stiff to vote for your proposition, to support your referendum, to vote for your liberal candidate?
Oh, I see now…by refusing to subject ourselves to the indignities of DKos, we refuse to prepare ourselves to communicate with the “ignorant working stiffs” who inhabited the United States.
I come from the working class, and am the first member of my family, EVER, to attend and graduate a university. My family are coal miners, shop clerks, farmers, sailors, and soldiers, as far back as we can trace the lineage.
The elitism in your comment is so thick one could cut it with a knife; the “ignorant” working class, eh? Maybe we’re not as stupid as you suppose; maybe the working class (who overwhelmingly voted for Kerry over Bush, by the way) don’t turn out in even greater numbers for the Democrats because the Democrats won’t fight for them.
Take, for example, that horrible bankruptcy bill which recently sailed through Congress, receiving bipartisan support from Democrats and Republicans in both the House and the Senate. That bankruptcy bill was one big wet kiss to the banks and credit card companies, and absolutely screws the working class. Who says so? Molly Ivins, for one, and me, for another.
And the tax cuts for the rich–which Democrats voted for. And NAFTA, which many unions opposed (the working class, again), pushed through the Congress by a Democratic president.
Simply put, the working class aren’t stupid; they’re smart enough to know that if the Democrats won’t fight for them on economic issues, then they shouldn’t bother supporting the Democratic Party.
There IS a third party in the United States, and it is called the I Am Not Voting For Any Of You Bastards Party.
And it has a larger constituency than either the Democrats or the Republicans.
or at least consider it every election. I usually end voting for the lesser-of-two-evils party.
Some choice.
It’s a terrible choice, and it has been for years.
But the alternative is even worse.
The best of all worlds would be to build the unions and the working class movement, take over the Democratic Party if possible, and cast it aside when possible.
We have to start somewhere, though, and really, time is pretty short.
Energy crunch, oil crunch, water crunch, climate change, and a host of really big, really dangerous problems are looming, and fixing them will require serious cash, serious power, lots of leverage, and a lot of help.
And DailyKos isn’t interested in recruiting people from the I’m Voting For None Of You Bastards Party.
Moulitsa invited environmentalists and feminists, for example, to hit the highway if they don’t like the way he ran his blog–they are “single issue” voters who have “hijacked” the Democratic Party agenda.
Rather, Moulitsa apparently wishes to increase the ranks of the I’m Voting For None Of You Bastards Party by filling it with Democratic-friendly voters.
Hm, doesn’t seem like a winning strategy to me, but I’m sure you and Moulitsa and the brain trust at DKos have some master strategy whipped up that would save the day if only the rest of us were smart enough to go over and take our medicine.
Hey shadowhief?
yeah, well, I grew up on a farm in rural Maine. My father is a carpenter and my mother a social worker. I come from a long line of working and middle class immigrants. I ran a bulldozer in the summers, worked washing dishes in the winters to pay for my college tuition, and then during college, worked on a commercial fishing trawler to pay off my debts and loans.
Your other points are in many ways very correct – the degree of apathy and refusal to vote for either part is indicative of the degree of disconnect between the Democratic Party and their true base.
What I was talking about was the degree of racism, sexism, and various other expressions of ignorance and division that are, in fact, very common and prevalent in the US working class.
What I am trying to point out is that the kinds of regressive, repressive, insane policies that are sailing through congress with bipartisan support will just get worse, not better, if we cannot somehow gain a foothold somewhere, anywhere.
The Democratic party is not, nor should it be, the be all and end all, but I see it as the best, most easily accessible first step.
You fail to show how our departure from commenting on DailyKos–which is, by your own admission, an insignificant number of people, which hasn’t even put a dent in DKos’ much-prised daily traffic stats–will damage the cause of progressive politics or even the Democratic Party.
Hell’s bells, our departure, according to you, hasn’t even hurt that tiny corner of the universe known as DailyKos.
So what’s all the fuss and bother about? We left because we didn’t like the atmosphere on DailyKos. Quite a few people here still cross-post at DKos; I, for one, don’t feel welcome there and never would. My interest and involvement in progressive politics preceded the establishment of DailyKos by 20 years, continues to this day, and would survive even if all the Internets were closed down tomorrow.
You have yet to demonstrate how the departure of 500-600 people from DailyKos, and their establishment as readers, diarists, and commentators on BoomanTribune, have damaged the unit of the progressive coalition. The reason you haven’t yet demonstrated it is because it is not something that is demonstrable; if there is a split occurring, it is one caused by those who, like your Mr. Moulitsa, say it is their way or the highway, and are not interested in listening to other points of view.
Moulitsa said it was his way or the highway. I took the highway, and it led here.
dkos: where they still believe that kerry losing is part of some brilliant longterm dem strategy.
That notion is rubbish. My god. Go back and look at Daily Kos throughout the election year. There was overwhelming support for him, even though Kerry was running a weak campaign. Jeebus. Kos closed ranks behind the candidate just fine.
This is an interesting debate and all, but this kind of thing doesn’t help. It’s just flat-out wrong.
That’s not what was written.
I agree with what was written; the blowhards were WRONG, yet they seem to be crowing the same message, and louder, AFTER Kerry lost.
Speaking as someone who bristles at Kos’ particular brand of Kerry hate, yeah hate’s a strong word, but even Kos admits his blind spot where Kerry is concerned, blind spot in a very anti-Kerry direction, I can say that nothing would have pleased him more than Kerry winning. This was just obvious.
I speak only for myself.
I cannot and will not return to posting comments on DailyKos because in order to feel welcome there, I have to ignore the fact that the proprietor, and a goodly number of the people posting there, have absolutely no respect for the fundamental rights of women.
I will not surrender my deeply-held principles for the ephemeral privilege of posting on a minor website. One needn’t have to check one’s conscience nor principles at the door, and I shall not.
It has nothing to do with that much-despised “ideological purity” we keep hearing about, and everything to do with maintaining one’s principles. I have to look at myself in the mirror every morning, and I absolutely must respect the fellow looking back at me.
That’s how I feel, and I make no apologies for it.
I just want to make a point here, and I don’t want it to be interpreted as a stifling of free speech on this site.
I wish that there were less discussion of what’s wrong with Daily Kos on this site. I know that we have a lot of exiles, and I know that Daily Kos is an important and influentual blog, and that it is an interesting topic. Hell, I’m interested in what people have to say about it, and I learn from both the positive and negative.
So, I am not being critical of this diary or others like it. I just hope that these types of diaries die down after a while. I do catch hell for them.
But one thing I defininetly agree with Armando about is this: if you rip dKos on this site, and then go post on dKos, you can expect a hostile reception. You can expect to have your words quoted back to you. People ARE paying attention.
And I don’t think it is right to expect any different. After all, you can right meta diaries on Daily Kos about you think is wrong with Daily Kos. And, at least there, the people being criticized can defend themselves.
To turn it around. If people got angry with me and went to another site to write bad things about me, I would be annoyed if they came back here and went about their business of making comments and writing diaries as if nothing had happened.
I’d like to see more original comment here and less cross-posting between BooManTrib and dKos. We need to find our unique voice somehow, but it’s going to be tough when one site looks just like the other but with prettier colors. (I just think green is more calming than orange…)
If you have to post both places, summarize over there and then post a link to your diary (or whatever) here; honest, inquiring folks will follow the link while those that don’t care won’t. With the tabbed browsing feature of Firefox and Safari, a simple command-click brings up a link in a new tab, while keeping the original diary close at hand for cross-reference. (If you’re not using Firefox, why the hell not???)
[Please note: the views expressed are those of the poster, who is in desparate need of a cup of tea at this moment, and do not reflect those of BooMan, anyone else on this site, Mozilla, or even her own spouse…]
I’m conflicted about the diary crossposting issue – not that I crosspost anywhere, although I probably will once I get my blog going, but I’m just not sure what to make of it between dKos and BT.
between a personal blog (or even a group blog like Liberal Street Fighter) and BooManTrib is one thing, because it exposes people to voices that they might not otherwise find, though I like when people post links between the two.
I just feel like BooManTrib is in danger of being seen as “dKos Lite” or something…or maybe it’s just being up too damn early for the first time in 10 days…
That’s my conundrum: the dKos lite issue. Although, it is interesting to see the divergence of opinions regarding the same diary here and at dKos. I don’t know…I’m undecided.
Really, why are things cross-posted between here and Kos? I understand when they are posted on Kos and cross-posted on someone’s personal blog. Those folks are trying to drive up traffic on their sites. But BMT readers don’t need to drive up traffic at Kos. And, frankly, as someone who doesn’t frequent Kos anymore, I don’t really want your seconds, thank you very much! Many of these diaries reference only Kos-oriented issues, which are not anything I’m interested in.
I don’t have a problem at all with cross-posting between BMT and dKos. While I don’t cross-post there myself these days, I don’t want people here — many of whom predate the recent dKos exodus — put in a position where they are required to favour one over the other.
For example, I think it’s excellent that RubDMC’s Iraq War Grief series — which originated at dKos — is now routinely cross-posted here and at Eurotrib. I don’t see that as detracting at all from the uniqueness of BMT, or as ‘seconds,’ posted here as an afterthought.
I think of it as being more like DIY syndication.
Would it be a problem if everyone did it? Perhaps. But not everyone does.
crosspost at DKos from here. đŸ™‚
I don’t mind (anymore) the cross-posting so much, I just don’t much like the post and run type thing. Then again, it’s a quirk of mine that I’ll usually prefer to comment in diaries that the writer also participates in, because I like conversations as opposed to just commenting on something. Sometimes one will want clarification or just to expand things, or whatever.
When something is crossposted, especially at the same time, and one diary gets a gazillion comments and the other maybe a few less đŸ˜‰ some (not all) diarists are not able to participate in both.
However, the sites are open, and people can do what they want, and get their points across however they feel best. I also love that RubDMC’s series is over here as well.
I never get traffic from Daily Kos when I post there…the people there seem to stay there…they don’t even follow the links to fact check the diaries…leaving a comment at americablog or atrios is a better way to get traffic
I crosspost here and at Dkos and at DU…sometimes other places…because i want the things that i feel are important to be read…plain and simple.
Hell…the only ones who recommend my diaries here…pretty much…are Booman and Susan Hu. But that’s fine…as long as people are reading it that’s all that matters.
If you see a diary crossposted in multiple places…don’t get upset…just don’t read it…the thing about dkos that sucks is that many people feel some misguided duty to self=police the site and tell you what you should and shouldn’t write. Not everyone goes to all the blogs…so I think it’s important to spread it around.
That’s what this is all about…getting our words and our voices and our research out there.
The difference in the sites is the discussions, not the diaries.
Discussions on dKos tend to resemble short, heated discussions in crowded rooms; discussions here seem to be generally longer and more thoughtful. Some topics lend themselves more to one or the other type of setting; most can be profitably discussed in both. I don’t think cross-posting detracts from either site.
(See my comment Not about pie, above.)
This discussion should be about Democratic core values and how we communicate them to voters.
Kos is sending the message that some Americans are “not important.” He denies that, but it is the message that is being heard by people who can be very important in electing Democrats – people passionate about progressive politics – the people who do everything from calling their Congressmembers to volunteering for campaigns to running for office.
If we cannot communicate that we will fight for all Americans to this committed group, how can we communicate it to voters? And if we cannot communicate that, we will lose elections.
To communicate that, we have to believe it – deep in our hearts and our guts. You’re right, BooMan, that internecine fighting is a waste of time. But imo, getting clear about what our core values are and making sure that we do not dilute or compromise those values – and that we communicate to voters that we will stand and fight for them, not sacrifice them to political expediency – is important.
It is always better to say what we’re for than what we’re against. Perhaps we shouldn’t waste time on being “against” dKos. But I think it is important to dissociate ourselves from any “you’re not important” messages (even if it was not intended) if we intend to win elections.
That’s what brought me here for the first time last night. A few posts at Kos and at the meandering, troll-infested BFA turned me on this site, and me likey so far.
I am a Democrat in voter registration only. I changed from Libertarian last spring to support Dean in the primary (it was PA, so it was pointless, anyhoo, but like Howard with the DNC, I figured that it might be time to work from within).
I posted a few comments about supporting the progressive Chuck Pennachio over the ‘more electable,’ anti-choice Bob Casey Jr. here in the PA Senate race at Kos, and was attacked b/c I’m not a party man. Of course I will vote for Casey when it comes down to him vs. Santorum, but I cannot get out and campaign and support anyone who wishes to reduce personal freedoms. Our candidate should be able to speak for all people. The rise abortion rates in Bush’s Texass and in the US under his regime should open the eyes of stringent anti-choicers to the meme that this party is pro-family, pro-child, AND pro-choice.
Great signature, BTW. Avid Pynchon fan here.
“I do catch hell for them.” Really? From whom? I find this comment very disturbing. It conjures imagery of, say, Armando calling you late at night and yelling in your ear. What would he say? “Get your people under control” or “You’ve got to delete the kos bashing on your site”? Like, um, how could you do that without destroying the very atmosphere here that makes it so appealing?
You know the attractive thing about open forums is their openness. Efforts to control or inhibit the free flow of ideas is exactly what’s wrong at dKos, IMHO. I’m sure the kos bashing will ebb as this community evolves it own identity. The recent influx of new members has not, thankfully, altered the pace and reasonableness of our discussions.
But, understandably, these “refugees” feel the need to vent and discuss how and why the atmosphere at dKos turned sour from their POV. I believe the greater cause — the advancement of progressive principles and actions — benefits from this examination. We all need to recognize that open forums — and open societies — are diminished when people are belittled for their opinions and/or positions. We all need to be aware of how that happens so we can avoid it here and reproduce that model in the real world.
The key, I believe, is tolerance. Democracy is messy; it means letting everyone say what they think and feel. We cannot arrive at consensus without allowing fringe opinions. How can we find the middle ground without seeing the edges? Markos appears to be imposing top-down policies that restrict the free flow of ideas and opinions.
Thankfully, you are a more open-minded and egalitarian fellow and we’re all grateful.
that I am put in an awkward position by personal criticism of front-pagers at Daily Kos who I consider my friends.
If I don’t defend what I feel is unfair criticism, then that can be construed as agreement.
If I wade into these threads then it will be construed as either censorship or top-heavy and stifling.
It’s a no win situation.
I think you’ve done a very good job of maintaining your balance in these discussions. And it looks like a win-win to me. If someone says, “(Front-pager X) is an authoritarian bully,” and you reply, “He’s my friend and I like him.”
That hardly stifles the discussion; it puts another view into it. And, doggonit, you should feel free to say whatever you like just like the rest of us. I appreciate the way you stated your personal discomfort with this kind of diary without saying STFU.
I hope you believe, as I do, that this need to vent about dKos will go away soon. But, obviously, enough people recommended this diary to put it up at the top so some are still feeling wounded and I have to respect that. Meanwhile, there is so much yummy content on this site that I’m not going to come back to this thread again.
currently up doesn’t lead to problems for you. I would like to use examples in those diaries that are somewhat familiar to people, and/or are political.
I’m also trying to figure how to pull the whole series together–eventually I’d like to have a short handbook on Verbal Self-Defense in the political arena that can serve as a quick reference for candidates and their campaign managers.
That will mean lots of mistakes; I’m not formally trained in linguistics, and I don’t know any other blogger who is, either.
Do I need to set up my own blog with this? How do I go about getting the interested people to stop in on a regular basis and help me develop this? I’d much rather join in someone else’s effort–but I don’t see much else going on in the VSD field.
I’m not even particularly good at it–all I am is wise enough to notice how badly most of us need better VSD skills.
(And my thanks for the recommends on the last one.)
This is a very well-written diary, but I agree with Booman that, for all sorts of reasons, it ought to be the last one posted on this site.
It’s all been said.
Of course, if someone wants to post such a diary, they can feel free to do so, but I wouldn’t see any point in participating in the discussion.
There are people here who post both here and at DKos. Good on them.
There are people here who want to stick primarily with DKos as their online outlet for comments and diaries. Good on them as well.
And then there are those, like me, who are going to stick exclusively with Booman. Good on us.
And no, I’m not here at BooTrib because it’s “not Kos” but for a number of reasons, including a different tone/atmosphere AND the fact that Booman has thoughtfully expanded the purview of his site beyond American politics and into international affairs with the “world diaries” and European Tribune. (I always wondered why nobody did that before!)
I “discovered” BooTrib because of the pie fight, so it was merely the impetus to find a new outlet–but I’m not here because it’s the anti-Kos. I see no reason for the two sites to be in conflict, and in fact, they are complementary rather than conflicting.
Let’s get on to more important, interesting, and substantive matters.
This is gettin old.
I am a woman that came to Booman in the beginning and still read dkos but not as frequesntly as say during the preelection period and the melt down afterwards. I for one was already sick of the raging over there. So many of the diaries and comments were no longer rants but rages. That being said Booman Tribune has been hijacked into this debate that really belongs imho over at dkos. Why try to pin one against the other. Lets start paying attention to the issues that are a matter of the future of this country. If you RedDan believe so deeply that dkos is the solution for the dem party then by all means participate there but leave others alone that are “prochoice” intheir move over here or other blogs for that matter. Lets move on folks, please.
I don’t mind this diary. The diarist had something to say and he said it.
“Wear it out” . Sometimes you have to wear it out before you can move past it.
Dkos still serves an important function. I go there for news. I even posted there the other day, something non-controversial. I don’t intend to post there much, and certainly not on feminist issues.
It doesn’t matter though, because I think the majority who participate there are okay with the positions of that blog.
With the pie wars, it was realized by many that there is a void in terms of posting on women’s issues, issues that affect all of us, btw. Let’s fill in that void here and in other blogs, and leave Dkos to their mission.
But its still a cancerous place and needs to be knocked down a peg or ten.
The problem isn’t dKos per se. This is just a 21st Century version of a problem that members of the Democratic Party and activists that would seem to naturally be allied with it have had for decades: THE PARTY IS OLD AND MORIBUND.
It resists change furiously. Institutional inertia is part of its DNA, and the genetic code of offshoot enterprizes, like the blog in question, pick up on that resistance. After Nixon’s “southern strategy” and Reagan’s “morning in America”, the party and many of it’s allies FIRST IMPULSE is to panic and move CLOSER TO ITS ENEMIES. The Democrats have done this over and over and over again in their history. They abandon whatever group the Republicans have managed to demonize in the last election. This year it’s women and gays. They abandoned African Americans so completely after Reagan that that communtity barely even registers on the parties radar (except as a fundraising tool to “protect the vote” <cough>).
dKos is merely a reflection of that institutional tendency. Dean’s 50 state strategy is an experiment in political gene therapy. Dean is trying to target the disease that causes the trait.
On an unrelated note: I crosspost my Liberal Street Fight pieces both here and at dKos because I find very different comment threads result at the three communities, helping me to focus and broaden my writing and my ideas about the world. I find the ability to interact with different “cultures” to be very helpful. I’m mad about what transpired at dKos, but there are new folks popping in there all the time, as well as oldsters lurking about. It’s vital that communication lines are kept open. I certainly understand why others won’t put up with the current tone there (the bullying does get tiresome), but so far I still find it worthwhile, though I seldom get much of anything of worth off the front page anymore.
The democratic party has been abondoning the working and middle classes, with the exception of the New Deal era, for a long time now. I’m wondering when will voters find their own strength to quit this undemocratic two-party system that has led this country into financial, social and foreign policy disaster.
good point … they were arguably the first group to be thrown overboard, in the ’50s, when we had to pretend to be a ‘classless’ society, even though the evening out of the classes happened BECAUSE of the labor movement and the GI bill. That some people had been left out was an unpleasant fact that NO ONE wanted to deal with.
…at Daily Kos is Cheers and Jeers.
And all the other stuff, but mostly Cheers and Jeers. It’s proppin’ the place up.
That was actually one of my least favourite aspects of DKos.
But one man’s meat is another man’s poison.
Thanks for the BIG SMILE you brought me with that, BIPM. Do stop by our Froggy Bottom Cafe and have a cup of coffee or tea. It is not Cheers and Jeers, but it is a down right friendly place to chat and play.
And when you are right, you are really right!
is Cheers and Jeers and some of the fantastic people there.
and want to refresh my understanding and memory of what a blog is.
So I still find myself not giving a rat’s a** over this brouhaha. Obviously, if a blog is public, then the contributors make or break it. Regardless of who started it. More contributors seem — in the Law of the Internet Jungle — to equate with greater “influence.”
If someone dislikes the influence of a certain blog (particularly a public one), it seems logical that the best recourse is to counterbalance it with another blog that has more contributors. Oh — can’t get more contributors? Well, guess the lesson is that the opinions on the low-traffic blog are of less interest to the population of likely blog participants than the opinions on the high-traffic blog. Pretty much a popularity contest.
Ouch!
Also obviously, politicians tend to spend time in high-traffic areas, even when some of that traffic includes extremists of whatever stripe. Bell curve.
If those of us who volunteer to come here like this place more than others, contribute, and remain civil in our public discourse, the word will get out, the traffic will increase, the counterbalance will fruit.
Let a thousand flowers bloom.
I agree with much of what you say and, as others have said, think this is a well thought out and written piece.
Let me toss out a couple thoughts from another perspective though…
Communities become closed when dissenting voices stop speaking. Controversial issues need to be discussed and discussed and discussed until understanding, accord, or common ground is reached. Divergent opinions and points of view are fine. They are inevitable.
The vast majority of the community at DailyKos is friendly to, if not a member of, the progressive mindset. This does not mean agreement on all issues nor does it mean that there will not be ignorance or closed minded attitudes towards various issues or groupings of people.
The importance of education and even more importantly, sharing of life experiences, cannot be overstated.
If we on the left (and center-left) cannot figure out how to work these things out amongst ourselves… how in the heck are we ever going to figure out how to work them out with those on the center-right? (forget the far right)
Walking away is not an answer. No one is obligated to carry on a fight. That is not what I am trying to say. Simply that the divide that the pie fight exemplified is one we need to continue to work on and resolve. It is imperative that we continue efforts to bring understanding amongst those that do not understand. Walking away does not promote understanding.
I must agree. These are the issues that make me an activist: equal rights for all, a woman’s right to make her own health care decisions, and environmental protection.
Markos himself has indicated his willingness to toss any or all of these ideas overboard if he perceives it as losing us votes. He’s been very careful not to frame any of this as left versus center, simply as a pragmatic approach to coalition-building that in the end benefits all of us, progressives included.
I respect that position as a statement of strategy, I simply think it’s wrong. In practice, that approach differs not at all from what the DLC has told us for years, and their track record sucks.
The candidates Markos endorsed throughout 2004 were a decidedly mixed bag of Democrats, and they fared no better than more clearly liberal groups like DFA’s Dean Dozen. Voters respond to clear and bold positions, and we won’t get proud, strong Democrats by ceding a core value here, a traditional constituency there. My primary complaints here are still partisan: I don’t agree with the overall strategy that community seems to agree upon.
The pie fights sucked, and Daily Kos is still a highly unpleasant place whenever the topic of gender arises. It is a great news source if you know how to filter it. But I agree–it’s just one of many, and we should let a thousand flowers bloom.
Maybe I shouldn’t be jumping into this, but it all seems silly to me. I somehow missed the pie fight, but if it was over that video, then I have to say, “grow up” to some of you women here. As long as people see you obsessing over such trivia, they’ll never take women seriously.
The Kos that some of you described above is unknown to me. I think he’s more than fair and I appreciate what he has done for the progressive movement in this country. You can sit around in your own echo chamber forever talking about the issues that are important to you, or you can get out there where you’ll be heard. Daily Kos is that place.
Over the past three years, I’ve come to value the opinions of so many of you. I wish you’d go back to Daily Kos and fight for your opinions.
but if it was over that video, then I have to say, “grow up” to some of you women here
The pie fight over the video would have been a minor issue. The problem was over the reaction to the objections of some women to that video. These reactions are archived for anyone to view.
I would ask you to not bring over here that sort of demeaning rhetoric (“grow up”), particularly when you haven’t explored the issue yourself. It isn’t helpful and by your own admission you have a limited notion of why several hundred men and women left the blog. Part of the reason is that thoughtful adults are tired of being told to “grow up” and similar things in an effort to persuade.
There is a problem. there are a number of problems. If you wish to be constructive, solve it over there. I wish you luck. I tried for years to get the ‘community’ to address this issue in a constructive way and have decided my energies and time can be spent more constructively elsewhere.
Colleen,
I hardly know how to respond. You’re right, I don’t know what the pie fight fuss was about because I didn’t follow the discussion–Perhaps because I see no reason to spend a lot of time reading about something that doesn’t strike me as that big a deal.
I’ve been a part of the Daily Kos community since the very early days, and I’ve never experienced, nor witnessed, the “problems” some of you describe.
My main point was that I miss the very important contribution the members of this community made over at Kos. I have a lot of friends who are just now tuning in to the blogosphere and they’ve never heard of some of you, and they probably never will. If you were still around Kos, they would have that opportunity.
I have a lot of friends who are just now tuning in to the blogosphere and they’ve never heard of some of you, and they probably never will. If you were still around Kos, they would have that opportunity.
Kos is not the blogosphere.
Susan, just because something doesn’t offend you doesn’t mean it isn’t offensive. Telling people to grow up because they are more in tune with what that type of advertising costs us, is really bad form.
You don’t have to be offended, but you have no reason to be dismissive either.
It’s not that I don’t find the ad offensive. It’s just that I find about a billion other things more offensive. If I sounded dismissive, that was the reason.
Not even about women or sexism or abortion, really.
Look here .
Hal C.
I know you are not talking specifically to me, and I doubt there is anyone here or there that would possibly care where I spend my time and comments, but No Thanks!
IMO there is no need to spend my time in that atmosphere that you somehow are oblivious to. You like it there? Good, you stay there and fight the good fight for whatever you are fighting for. . .and really, I can’t believe after all this time you still think it was about the ad, you really should do more research if you are interested.
Those who have been fighting these same battles for 40 or more years really don’t have time or energy to spend on in-fighting with those we mistakenly thought were already allies. Those who want to hear our voices will hear them, and there are millions of them out there that understand what we are saying, more than 150,000,000 actually. It is not about BMT or DK. In the grand scheme of things, neither one is particularly important.
I personally wish DKos well, and have no doubt it will continue to grow and prosper with or without me. I really don’t see your point. A few hundred people found other places they prefer to voice their concerns and build their coalitions within. So What?
You remind me of one of our DFA members. She’s a peace activist and was a strong Kucinich supporter. She resigned from the Democratic party and is very skeptical of DFA. She wanted to know what our stance was on getting out of Iraq. She isn’t sure she wants to be a part of our group because we might not be “anti-war” enough for her. I think she’ll come around (she’s away for the summer), but all I can think to say to her is, “Exactly what do you think you can accomplish on your own?” We are trying to build our party at the grassroots level and we need to be working together with other progressives, and not focusing so much on our own issues.
The blogosphere is a tool we are going to need if we are ever going to take our country back. Whatever disputes you have with the people over at Kos, they should pale in comparison to the fact that we need to be communicating among ourselves and uniting rather than letting our egos get in the way.
I have deliberately not posted in this thread, but I cannot stop my fingers after this one:
“Exactly what do you think you can accomplish on your own?”
Susan. I speak for no one but myself, I do not go in for big sweeping “we”s or “you”s and with that caveat I say:
I can accomplish quite a bit “on my own”, that you very much. Here’s why:
My networks expand FAR, FAR beyond any website or online sounding board. My hopes, ideals and activities extend to FAR more than working up talking points for the Democratic party , or jibber-jabbering about what elected official did or didn’t “toe the party line” (whatever that happens to be at any given second).
I have problems with authority, I have been told that several times during the course of my life, I have severe problems with self-appointed authority that seeks a “power-over” heirarchy. I don’t need that in my life. More than ANYthing else the self-agrandizing and arrogant hubris of the “dKos is the whole deal” is what turned me off.
And, if what you really want is us to be “communicating among ourselves” then for the love of christ, get ON it with it and stop talking about it — that’s what is DONE here (and other places too!!)
Here are my last words on this.
I can accomplish quite a bit “on my own”, that you very much. Here’s why:
My networks expand FAR, FAR beyond any website or online sounding board. My hopes, ideals and activities extend to FAR more than working up talking points for the Democratic party
So are you “on your own” or do you have a network? It would appear that you’re making my point. We have to work together and not get into pissing matches when we don’t agree.
self-appointed authority that seeks a “power-over” heirarchy
Are you talking about Kos? Please. It is his site, but his rules are hardly stifling.
And, if what you really want is us to be “communicating among ourselves” then for the love of christ, get ON it with it and stop talking about it — that’s what is DONE here,
I was merely intrigued by the topic of the diary and was responding to it.
As for the comments about Daily Kos not being the “whole deal” or the only one in the blogosphere, you are right. He’s not the only game in town, for sure, but he’s definitely one of the most prominent on our side. By denying it, you look petty. And I won’t even comment on the statement regarding Kos’s personality traits.
I’m not a Kos exile, so I don’t bring a whole lot of heat to this discussion… but I’m not at all sure he’s actually on “my side.”
Of course, I pretty much left the Democratic party during the Carter years.
You start your comment by saying “here are my last words on this”
How is that not petty? (AND, by the way, a perfect example of the “power-over” that I was talking about — the conversation is over now because YOU say so.)
You ask:
“Are you talking about Kos?”
No, I wasn’t actually, I was talking about the atmosphere as a whole and not about Kos as a person (I do not know him), but the tone set by the “feel free to walk off in a huff. I will focus on the important shit.”
And, incidentally, I was talking about people like you who are coming here to exert “power-over” — “what can you do on your own” you ask condescendingly….give me a fucking break!
You say:
“he’s definitely one of the most prominent on our side”
Whose side are you talking about? YOUR side? Don’t say “we” and “our”, I do not wish to be included, thank you.
Yes, I have a network, many in fact. Some [gasp] that have absolutely NOTHING to do with partisian politics!! Unbelievable, no?
In that case–why are the DKos people fracturing our coalition by insisting on posting on DailyKos? They should ALL come over here and post at BoomanTribune–then we’ll all be together again, one big, happy family.
And your example does not illustrate the situation here. In your example, your friend who may or may not have left the DFA is still free to participate politically, acting with others, in an anti-war group such as Stop the War Coalition, which acts independently of either political party. So she can still accomplish something WITH OTHERS outside the Democratic Party.
In the same way, I have been a member of a number of organisations, including the ACLU, for many years now, and my political involvement both precedes and supercedes any involvement I have with DKos, BooTrib, or any of these other websites that fancy themselves the alpha and omega of political involvement.
We who have left DKos once and for all are not alone, we are here, together, and we have joined with others OUTSIDE the insubstantial world of cyberspace for political action in the real world.
Now, if the Democratic Party wants to be the party to lead us out of Iraq, good on them–then I’m supporting the Democrats on that issue.
If the Democrats don’t want to take the US out of Iraq, then I’m going to fight against the occupation, anyway, through an independent group that owes nothing to the Democrats, but is willing to ally itself with them IF the party will fight for what is important to us.
I don’t have a perspective of this being an ego thing, unless you think the shameful names that some people were called was somehow an affront to someone’s ego rather than a very disrepectful act of name calling and apparent desire to denegrade women in general and a particular commentors in specific. There is only so long that people can be told that yes, we care about your issues, but not now and not the way you do, so really your issues aren’t important to us. Sooner or later you start to get the idea you are not headed in the same direction. Thinking people sometimes take that as a sign it might be time to move on. And when some very loud voices in the community suggest that if you don’t like their stand on your “silly issues”, then don’t let the door hit you in the ass on the way out, it really does seem like a good idea to avoid the door hitting your ass and just find other coalitions.
I personally have no disputes with anyone at dkos. I do choose to avoid interactions with certain people who are vilely disrespectful of me or my opinions. Name calling is just childish, in my opinion, and I don’t interact with those who insist upon it. Just my personal preference.
In order to unite it begins and ends with mutual respect. When that is lacking, people tend to find other means and other places to express their concerns. Many, if not most of us have been politically active in many ways with many groups long before dkos ever came along and the blogosphere is just one element of a much broader activism and coalition building. It has potential to be a very valuable tool, however it is not the end all and be all of everything political. It is one piece, and at this time one small piece of the whole picture.
BMT is not dkos. Dkos is not BMT. If you or others miss certain voices that have gone on elsewhere, then seek them out and hear their voices from wherever they are speaking. I make it a point to do that for the voices that I appreciate most. It really is no big inconvenience.
I appreciate your passion and loyalty for dkos. But while feelings of so many here are still raw and barely healing it doesn’t seem as helpful to have some kossacks continue to come to other sites to reconcile issues of dkos. Come and participate on any of the diaries or posts of interest here, if you like. And I know you are responding to a diary that I personally wish was not focused on daily kos, because I think perhaps the issues addressed could be discussed in relevance to many blogs. Not my call, however, as the author has a right to say what they wish. I personally wish this had been posted at dkos, where the members there could take issue with it or discuss it as they choose. It would seem far more appropriate to me. But that is just my opinion.
both sides, or all views?
I ended up at the back of my head.
I do want to say this: The contractors who got mutilated in Fallujah, for all intent and purposes, were mercenaries. I generally stay away from that term because it is inflammatory… and I agree Marcos probably shouldn’t have used it, for discretion reasons, but its still true.
The Frontline show last night was pretty weak, IMO, but it did illuminate one thing for certain:
Those four contractors went out lacking a third gunner in the car, lacking directions, lacking a lot of things they should have been paying attention to. Because of this, they were caught, killed and made a spectacle of. I don’t think this OK, but it DID spark our military to go in and “find the killers”.
I have a problem with this.
And this is the problem with using private support in war. They are not held to the same standards as the military, yet, for some reason when they screw up, our enlisted men then go in to “find the killers”.
If policy is to have our military involve themselves in situations created by poor planning on the side of private entities in the theater of war, I only have one thing to say:
clusterfuck.
I don’t disagree with the “mercenary” assessment — it is, after all, literally true. It is a heavily loaded and denigratory term, however, and using it at a moment when the country was horrified by what happened to them exhibited extremely poor judgment.
I am otherwise in complete agreement with everything you just said, and with a substantial proportion of Markos’ ideological positions. The major point of difference for me is that I do believe it matters a great deal how you approach people. The rest of the ideological differences fall under the heading of reasonable people disagreeing.
And so is being able to recognize how you are perceived. I read some of the pie-fight diaries when I came across a group of them at dKosopedia. Personally, I think just about everyone could have used more tact. I thought it was very unfortunate that many of the best writers and commenters left and refuse to go back. And quite frankly I think that is a loss for everyone involved.
I am happy you all have moved here. I think Booman runs a great site. I sincerely hope the issues raised and debated during the “pie-fight” can be resolved. It would be to the benefit of all.
Personally, dKos reminds me of the guy in high-school whose parents were always out of town, or the band-house who’s door was always open. Its a convenient place to gather and there is always something going on. There are other places to gather as well.
But I think we are on a lot of the same pages and hopefully mends can be made.
Personally, dKos reminds me of the guy in high-school whose parents were always out of town, or the band-house who’s door was always open. Its a convenient place to gather and there is always something going on.
That’s so true, and bonus points for giving me a good laugh, too!
I didn’t even learn of Kos’s statement, until I read the Dole letter. I thought surely it must have been a distortion or outright lie. But, no, he really said it. That he characterized them as mercenaries, does not bother me. That he said he didn’t care that they were brutally murdered is beyond intemperate. It’s horrifying. It is the mirror image of those who don’t care that human beings are being tortured and killed in Abu Ghraib and Gitmo, because they are evil, or lesser, or “other.” I have no truck with people who show such a callous disregard for human life.
He shouldn’t have said he didn’t care.
We should note that a lot of the Americans over there as contractors are humans… humans who are not making any money here. That is true. Folks with stable jobs are not volunteering for work in Iraq.
So the situation is more complex than greedy Americans going over there for money. The closer truth is somewhat financially desperate people are going over there for work. And this is due to economic problems here in America.
Personally, I think this is the greater crime. The crime is using the financial straights of our citizens to entice them into war, into the Army for college reasons or into a private company. Kos missed this whole aspect with his dismissive, “I don’t care.”
The REAL ISSUE is this: In a Democracy, the army does not go to war unless the people are willing to fight. When you can outsource this participation, or, more importantly, coerce it, then it is no longer a Democratic army.
And this is where we are today. This is why the Administration has to constantly reinforce we have a volunteer army.
Only partially, even fractionally, is this true.
Well, one thing you can say about Kos, he’s brutally honest. One doesn’t have to wonder what he thinks (or rather, feels) about any particular issue.
As a former soldier, do I respect these mercenaries?
No. They are war profiteers whose only allegiance is to the dollar.
As a human being, am I sorry they were killed–particularly in such a horrific fashion?
Yes. Nobody–and I mean nobody–should have to die that way. In fact, I don’t believe in killing anybody save in self-defence, but that’s another story….
is a foreign soldier hired to do the work of a paying country, like the Hessians who were hired by the British to fight in the American Revolution. The word also has other connotations when used generally, as in “his main interest in the website he established is a mercenary interest.” Sometimes these two meanings get confused.
I think that it is unnecessarily inflammatory and incorrect to say that an American contractor is “a mercenary [soldier].” However, there is no doubt that an American contract soldier has a “mercenary interest” in their job in Iraq.
Please don’t think for a minute that I personally support any of this contracting for private soldiers stuff. It’s just that precision in language can be very important. And if you didn’t read between the lines in the second sentence of my post, you’ll think that my comment here is directed only at precise use of the language.
They are mercenaries.
They are non-enlisted foreign participants actively involved in combat in a combat zone. When they are armed and active in fire-fights, and they are foreign participants motivated primarily by money, they are mercenaries.
Confusion arises when truck drivers are called mercenaries. They are not. The people guarding them are.
It should also be noted that there is not really an internationally accepted definition. The UN Convention can not be held as complete. The OAU Convention can not be considered complete either, though it is closer in some aspects than the UN attempt.
So the definition is still being molded. Especially given the adoption by corporations, which in some ways seem like mercantile companies… we are living in times without legal definitions (nor enforcement of what does exist) for our participants in combat. Until this gets sorted out, to me, they are mercenaries.
But, personally, I prefer the term private soldier, private contractor ect. There is no reason to turn the debate towards the term used when other issues deserve more attention. That is my reasoning.
OK, We agree that whatever the nationality, it’s a problem. We also agree that there are more important things to consider than the definition of the term. However, using the links you cited…
This illustrates my point that the soldier being described as a mercenary would not be a national of either party (or parties) to the conflict. This rules out American and British nationals who are paid by an American or British company to fight in Iraq, for example.
The older, seemingly different definition:
This seems to imply that the only “non-mercenary” is a person living in the country under attack who decides to join the attackers and receive compensation from them. That would mean that any contractor from any country other than the country being fired upon would be a mercenary.
I might personally prefer the stricter definition, but it is not in agreement with hundreds of years of usage of the term. If you check any American or British dictionary for the definition, it will also agree with my understanding.
“Private contract soldier” is the more correct term when applied to American nationals employed by American companies to fight in Iraq.
What then, about Filipinos, Indians, Nepalese, Fijians hired by PMCs? Chilena soldiers, El Salvadorian soldiers, South African soldiers? What about companies registered in the Virgin Islands, South Africa, the Caymans, Israel…
I think we are in similar agreement. I bring up these others to show how that older definition isn’t as applicable. I agree, American nationals hired by private companies skirt the definition. As the do British. But these companies use many other nationals who are not a part of the conflict. Do they assume US national status upon being hired? I don’t know.
One could also make the argument suicide bombers from foreign countries are mercenaries.
I’m not disagreeing with you so much as threshing through the possibilities.
I would say -from my understanding- that unless a foreign national hired by an American company was or became a “…resident of territory controlled by a party to the conflict…”, they would be a mercenary. And that if the company doing the hiring is not based in a country on our “coalition of the willing” list, any soldiers they hired would be mercenaries. We are dicing and slicing the definition here, looking for the finer points, aren’t we? And we have drifted way off topic in a diary with over two hundred comments. Maybe we need a diary about this issue? Or maybe not.
On some other sites, we would have been blasted for trailing this far off topic, so I’m glad we’re here on BT, not one of those other sites!
I was thinking the same thing… getting a diary up in this issue for discussion.
Alas, I am going camping tomorrow for a week and don’t have the time today, but if it hasn’t been done by the time I get back, I’ll put one up and see what happens. Personally, I think this is just the kind of dialogue this subject warrants. Its a huge subject. We’ve only poked at the wrapping today.
Mind if I diary it? and give you some credit?
I just won’t be around and would really like to take part, but definitely diary it. I think it is very important.
Absolutely right. I’ve defected from Kos precisely for the reasons you cite. Pie Fight, abortion issues, disrespect for women, disrespect for children and parents (one poster opined that children who don’t do well in school should be taken from their parents!), and closed minds: finally I had to say, Outta here! But the larger issues you cite, having to do with partisan politics vs. activism, centrism vs. progressivism, etc., lie behind all of these manifestations. Thanks for articulating that so well.
As is part of the culture of this community, I am explaining the 2’s given you above. Not 1’s, as I don’t think you are a troll, but 2’s because I think you are repeatedly abusing the culture of this community.
Once asked to leave, one is wise to do so — or at least to leave off! That some here responded to exactly that invitation at another site and then find you and others heading here to hijack diaries does not suggest that other site is ready for their return.
Frankly, I have continued to occasionally go to DKos.
But with this continued behavior by you, I now am going to reduce my time there even more — not all together, but only for what it can teach me, because that is the reason I went there in the first place.
But my time for blogs is limited, as has been noted by others. And it is not because I am unwilling to teach others — I am a teacher, and my time is better spent by those open to learning.
So it’s on your head now.:-)
Obviously millions of things (probably literally) have happened at dkos since this fight, but permit me, as someone who enjoys the unique qualities of both sites, to mention and link to some useful information.
I don’t judge the folks who needed to make a break with dkos, nor will I defend what Markos said, but for any (and someone asked the basic ‘what really happened’ question upthread) who are still sorting it out, a different perspective may help.
a few observations first:
The abusive male commentors who have been mentioned many times are, as I understand it, basically a core group of about 25-50 who got really worked up and poisoned the discussion. This doesn’t mean that anyone has to frequent a site that will tolerate or enable such behavior, but I suspect it does make a difference to some reading this that it is not a general sport to abuse women at dkos (which has 10s of thousands of users). Insensitivity to the seriousness of these issues is a different matter. This fluctuates but is somewhat widespread at dkos, as it is in society at large – in part I’m sure because the site became home to lots of young, pissed off activists energized by the last few years of partisan strife but quite inexperienced in activist politics more generally. And yes, there is a leadership setting the tone issue as well.
Some — I don’t know if it came up upthread, I haven’t read exhaustively, but it did in previous discussions — have asked where the other men were, why more were not objecting to the abuse that occurred in the ugly threads that night. Can’t speak for everyone, but I know that I tend to avoid long contentious threads out of long habit, and I’m sure many of the other men at dkos did the same and were not present to combat the vitriol. I knew that things were bad but not how over the top they had gotten, as I posted diaries trying to get people to step back and understand why women were upset. These were largely overlooked in the heat of things.
On what has been going on since then, Maryscott says this:
that the infamous Pie Wars actually had a positive influence on the state of gender issues on DKos.
I’ve seen more and better diaries on all manner of “women’s issues” since those Pie Wars than I did the entire year prior to them.
The fact is, most of the men who post here were shocked and aggrieved to discover that so many women felt dismissed, denigrated and mute here — and the day after the “mass exodus,” those men began speaking up. It was something beautiful to behold, and it continues as we speak.
Rage, rage, against the lying of the Right.
by Maryscott OConnor on Thu Jun 16th, 2005 at 23:48:23 PST
This comment was made in a very moving and intense diary about one woman’s story of her emergence from a history of sexual abuse. If you have the interest that diary is probably as good a place as any to ‘take the temperature’ of the site on sensitivity to women’s issues and what is or is not tolerated in a general way. A number of men join the discussion worked up about the possibility that their gender is being dissed and not getting it about women’s legitimate fears. Lots of back and forth, some of it heated, mixed with the more on-topic parts of the discussion. A few will never get it, but overall I think that relative progress is being made and can be seen there. If that’s not your cup of tea that is totally fine with me. We all join the battle where we feel we can be of some use and not betraying key parts of ourselves….
Another place to see earlier working through things activity is here
In closing, I have to say that I think that eodell paints with an overly broad brush at times above. dkos is not monolithic. It has lots of nooks and crannies where all sorts of subtler things still happen. It has developed a sometimes raucous culture that you may hate, but that culture is always in flux and has shown some substantial ability to be self-correcting in the past (though primarily on different issues than this). Where it is headed at this point is IMHO an open question, in part because the site is testing the limits of current social/blogging software’s ability to manage large and contentious communities. (Anyone interested in that metaissue should check out A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy by Clay Shirky.)
Also, I don’t believe its fair to lump Markos with the DLC. Markos has blind spots and inconsistencies at this stage in his life (unlike the rest of us 8^), and you can obviously judge those to place him beyond the pale if you wish, but he has fostered something that no DLCer would have dreamt of (unless it was a nightmare); the conflict between his ‘crew’ and the DLC is about far more than turf.
I was in Europe for two weeks and obviously I missed something. When I returned it was obvious to me that somehting very strange and destructive was going on at dKos, but I never got any details.
Could someone please email me and fill me in?? Please!?
I have been moving away from dKos more and more recently, as I too have perceived a definate shift towards what I call the “center”, and needless to say, that is exactly what I was trying to avoid by going to dKos in the first place. The other thing I have noticed lately over there is the shameless flame and troll-ratings pile-ons that occur when certain viewpoints are expressed. I, for instance, recently lost TU status because I commented on my view that John Kerry is basically irrelevant. The 2’s were piled on by all of the regulars (the “big names”… whoopty freaking doo), and it sometimes seems to be a concentrated effort, although that may just be the paranoid conspiracy theorist in me.
Thanks for writing this diary. Very intuitive and spot on, IMHO.
There are explanations above . . . as there have been for weeks upon readers’ return. So don’t be surprised if no one else wants to go into detail again at the end here, when . . . there are explanations above. . . .
Fair enough.
Thanks!
It has all been documented and organized——–> here <———-.
Happy reading.
I’m trying to slash my wrists with a butter knife! I went to that link and under notable diaries was one of mine titled “Fine, Let’s Fucking Tango”. What happened to my diary about the definition of sexual harassment? How is “Fine, Let’s Fucking Tango” more notable than the other diary other than the fact that I was flaming pissed off insane with few thought processes going on in my feminist lizard brain when I wrote it…….did some meditation and deep breathing……and wrote the sexual harassement diary a couple of hours later. WTF! Was the sexual harassment diary not as much fun as “Fine, Let’s Fucking Tango!” I’m laughing, yet sad, yet puzzled, yet feeling CNNed or National Enquired or something like that. I think I need another beer!
I just opened one myself. There’s a beer company in SF, Speakeasy that makes a real good IPA. I don’t what their distribution is like, but I’m hooked.
You know, you can add your other diary to that list if you like.
Sam Adams Cherry Wheat is the best I can do in BAMA, otherwise I luv a luv a luv a Fat Tire. I think microbreweries are illegal in Alabama….too many Democrats drink microbrews and we wouldn’t want them getting together in large groups or anything like that down here……he he;)
All that diversity of flavor is sure to confuse the drap Budweiser palate of the single-minded.
Billy, I’m a decorated veteran of the Pie Wars. Captain Shadowthief, reporting:
I remember it all too well…it was 1100 hours when the first merengue barrage came in. From there on, it was a grisly orgy of custard, whipped cream, and the occasional fruit pie. We were surrounded by the enemy but determined to hold the ground we had already taken, and unwilling to retreat. I won’t lie to you, we slogged through some heavy crust, and ran low on everything: napkins, milk, forks…war is hell, Billy, war is hell.
Yes, the baked goods came in heavy that day, and those of us who lived through recognise one another on the streets by the world-weary look in one another’s eyes and the bits of pie stuck to the soles of our shoes. We covered ourselves in glory that day–we should have covered ourselves with a tarp, but ah well….
Seriously–go to Kos and research it if you must. I think that so much has been said here, and coloured by different perceptions, that for someone like you this must seem like the script of “Rashomon”–so it’s better if you see with your own eyes.
I know you have a purple heart, I was there when you took a round – and a few more inches and it would have been in the heart……but do you have to go around bragging to everybody about it now? Am I going to have to drag your butt out of the Froggy Bottom Cafe every night when your head starts bobbing over your beer and you get that 50 yard stare and you take everybody back to that hell with you?
They don’t serve pie in that damn cafe, do they?
By the way, my medal is in the shape of a pie tin.
I see the situation as a natural, desirable expansion of the political force that the blogosphere is becoming. IIRC, MyDD begat Kos, who begat Booman and at least 14 other blogs listed on the front page here.
This is my first visit here, and I gotta say, it feels real familiar. The layout is like DKos in green, and most of the names on the recommended diaries list are well remembered. This blog definitely plays homage to it’s blogfather, and that’s a good thing.
Every child breaks away from the father and goes out on their own. So it is with bloggers, too, I guess.
Don’t think of it as a rift. Each new blog that spins off from DKos represents a new community of Democrats that can generate new readers and contacts. It’s the evolution of democracy in cyberspace.
I’d like to make some points.
1. You claim that “[t]he fact of the matter is that dKos, like every other blog on earth, and the majority of voluntary associations, has no value or power outside of its members.”
If this is the case, why did a poll of 47 conservative bloggers rank Kos as one of the top 20 people “screwing up America.” Obviously, this wasn’t a poll of Kos members. So it is incorrect to say the blog has no value or power outside of its members, because if Kos has the other side pissed, they are noticing. Which is a definite sign of value and power.
2. You state “Politicians listen to the people whose votes they’re not sure of.”
The participation of Reps. Conyers and Slaughter at dKos show that the conversation is going two ways. Which happens to be one of your three fundamental points in the last paragraph. I see the point with the Liddy Dole nonsense, but I think having elected officials participating at Kos is good for the voters and the officials. The right-wing attack machine will paint you one way or another, be it with Kos affiliation, flag-burner, baby-killer or America-hater.
There is definitely a need for a larger number of quality progressive blogs with diverse messages, and certainly a danger of a “blog oligarchy” controlling the message/conversation – that I can agree with. But stopping that is in our own hands. That’s why I’m glad to see the Booman Trib stylin’.
So it is incorrect to say the blog has no value or power outside of its members, because if Kos has the other side pissed, they are noticing. Which is a definite sign of value and power.
quibble: David Horowitz has progressives pissed. But he’s not particularly valued even by his allies.
Point taken. He certainly had at least a phase of influence, though.
WE have better things to talk about.
We need to get our own house in order, and if that means straightening up some mysogynist blowhards, it needs to be done.
but we’re now talking double digit numbers of diaries with triple digit postings on two different blog sites all about the same subject. I haven’t seen much in this diary that I haven’t seen in numerous other ones.
This is not getting our house in order. This is beating some poor flockin nag to death.
IMHO.
Horse soup.
I don’t think the highlighting of Markos’s (Kos) disagreeable comments is productive.
No-one is perfect, and to expect 100% compliance to anyone’s point of view – given our own national diversity – is in itself anti-democratic, and, BTW, unattainable.
We have got to focus on the things we AGREE upon, and if its anything beyond 66 percent of agreements (Senate Fillibuster Rule), let’s just skip the self-righteousness for our own priorities, and let’s just get this fucking hell administration out of our faces.
I support ALL the blogs that work against BushCo, and if one of the blog leaders says something I don’t like, I look at the whole picture: we need to unite! Not to fight each other. We ALL have issues. And once this miserable administration gets out of our way we can address them!!!
I can go to another blog to express my feelings about Kos’s comments about the pie ad.
I’m sure as hell, at the same time, that this issue is NOT going to distract me from what REALLY needs to be done here: All of us want this DICK to get what he deserves. Let’s GO FOR IT. Picking on Kos is like picking our own noses.
We’ve got to stick together folks. Let’s not waste our time on one person’s shortcomings to rise up to the occation (Markos). We’re a community, and the only way we’re going to get anywhere is by respecting our differences. As long as we have
I do agree and I will also admit to a ton of eye rolls in Marcos’ direction. However, DKOS still has comments and opinions worth listening to so I wont be hermecotting anytime soon… that is, unless one day KOS peels back his mask to reveal Tom Delay’s face.
Good points are good points no matter where they come from. As long as DKOS has enough of them to make it worth my while, I will continue to visit.
…My greatest “issue” with dKos is how Markos and the entire cadre of front-pagers continue to deny the mountainous dung-heap of evidence that the re(s)election in 2004 was black-water rotten.
…The flat-earth reasoning of those who refuse to see the clear evidence of fraud is tantamount to complicity in the theft of a third national election cycle.