The Raw Story has an article on the lawsuit filed by the ACLU to gain release of the Abu Ghraib photographs.
A coalition of 14 media organizations and public interest groups organized by The Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press have filed a friend-of-the-court brief in U.S. District Court in New York urging the release of Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse photos…
If you’ve forgotten what these photos depict, Lindsay Graham can remind you: “The American public needs to understand, we’re talking about rape and murder here. We’re not just talking about giving people a humiliating experience. We’re talking about rape and murder and some very serious charges.”
The government argues that the information is protected by Exemption 7(F) of the FOI Act, which protects law enforcement records from disclosure when they “could reasonably be expected to endanger the life or physical safety of any individual.” Citing recent riots in Afghanistan following Newsweek’s publication of an article about alleged Koran abuse at Guantanamo Bay, later retracted, the government says the official release of Abu Ghraib prison abuse photos could similarly incite violence against military personnel and civilians overseas.
I sympathize with the government here. The release of footage of young boys being sodomized while our soldiers make snarky comments is bound to put all Americans at increased risk. But maybe, just maybe, Americans will finally realize what has been done in our name.
Booman, I too sympathize, to a degree, with the government’s position. Releasing these pictures will have serious consequences for all of us, military and civilian alike. It’s likely to unleash some very bad, bad things. But, as you say, the people need to see what has been done in their’s and our names. It reminds me of the German townspeople who were forced to see what happened inside the consentration camps after the war ended. I think this could be a turning point in our history as we struggle with our identity and how far we have fallen from what we have believed we were.
Perhaps, if these get released, we can begin to anticipate, and plan, how we’ll respond.
Perhaps candlelight vigils in our town and cities across the nation?
As a way to express our grief and regret.
Ok, I have been feeling weepy all day. It is all just becoming too much. Every day the atrocities committed by “our” country in the name of “freedom and democracy” is appalling. I feel like the world is spiralling out of control and there is nothing any of us can do about it…that is too late and any day now it is all going to come to a head in the form of something really terrible. We cannot continue to treat people this way and not pay the consequences for our behavior.
One of my tenants and neighbors is a Marine and he is leaving tomorrow for Iraq. We talked breifly today in the laundry room. I asked if I could give him a hug and it was weird because he was very hesitant but allowed it. He spelled of alcohol and this was 9am. I understand that he probably did a farewell thing or something last night. He was just so indifferent, distant, cold. I just wished him safe journey. He will be deployed at least 7 or 8 months. His coldness has bothered me all morning. I am not sure why but it’s as if I feel more about him going than he does. This is his first tour there but he is a lifer been in since ’87. Are they trained to not feel? I’m asking because I am baffled.
Sorry to ramble but this has beeen keeping me choked up and I needed to get it off my chest. The truth is I am greiving for him, for all our kids over there because it is not just the loss of life and limb but the loss of feelings, depth, soul, innocense. God help us all.
People deal with pressure, fear, grief and every other emotion differently. So his seemingly calm exterior just may be how he copes. It doesn’t mean he isn’t frightened.
When I’m really stressed I laugh. Once while diving, my friend ran out of air (her own fault). We were 60 ft down, but thankfully I had plenty of air left. We were able to safely surface, signal the boat we were fine and after a few adjustments start swimming on the surface back towards the boat. I, of course, was laughing. The captain of the boat jumped in and swam to us and upon hearing my laughter yelled at us how this wasn’t funny. After we were back on board he apologized and said he had no idea why he felt the need to yell. It was simply how he dealt with it.
We deal how we need to deal. Of course on the other hand maybe he thought you were hitting on him.
Hitting on him? LOL
HMMMMMMMMM :O)
our govt. doesn’t want these pics released is because they want to protect their own image.
They cleverly use the excuse that revealing these gruesome photos and videos will endanger our troops more in Iraq, but, considering that they themselves have shown virtually nothing but contempt for the safety and security of our own soldiers in the battle zone, such an argument coming from them about these photos is the height of hypocrisy. It’s like a criminal arguing that his crime should not be revealed because it might give others an incentive to do the same thing.
I think the only way these photos will ever see the light of day is if, for some reason, things calm down in Iraq and it looks like the violence might be coming to an end. Then Cheney and his pals will see to it these photos get leaked in order to renew the outrage and stimulate a return to violence.
The release of footage of young boys being sodomized while our soldiers make snarky comments is bound to put all Americans at increased risk.
But we reap what we sow. These horrific acts would demand retribution. If we had treated POWs per the Geneva Convention, we wouldn’t have to worry about putting Americans at increased risk.
I don’t believe release of the photos outside of court is necessary for Americans to “finally realize what has been done”. A person would have to be living on Mars not to be familiar with the original photos, and the detainee/prisoner scandals.
Those who cried the loudest at the beginning of the scandals pointed to the violation under the Geneva Conventions of releasing pictures of prisoners. So is DoD now required to compound their felonies? Are the detainees themselves – who suffer crushing humiliation – asking for their picture(s) to be plastered all over the global media?
I think we need to remember the ACLU is asking for the pictures as part of their disovery for the ongoing cases brought against the entire defense & intelligence establishments. The pictures are to be used as evidence in a legal proceeding. How will the release to the public benefit their case? In the courtrooms where the trials are taking place, the only people that count are the parties to the action, the jury, and the judge.
Sorry. This borders on lynch-mob mentality. No thought given whatsoever to the troops and/or the detainees and their families. Ample evidence is available to prosecute those responsible without creating chaos in a global trial by media.
A very interesting take on it, rba. There is a lot of merit in your argument.
One thing to note: part of the delay with these pictures coming out was apparently due to an effort to digitially alter the tapes to protect the identities of the perps and the victims alike.
So, if they are released, they will not violate the Geneva conventions, or identify the criminals.
…an effort to digitially alter…
Interesting. If they’re released, no identifiers, so arguably no way to prove who was actually in them. Nice little conundrum.
I assume a court or prosecutor would still have access to the originals.
Yes, but not released to the public.
I have the same fear you do if the media publishes them. Plays right into the hands of the two groups we’re trying to defeat: BushCo and terrorists.
I really am not sure. Proabably not good for a bloghost to go around without being able to take a position? But, who cares?
Here’s an idea: part of the problem we’re having is the craven loyalty of much of the GOP creates a buffer between the raw truth and what is perceived by the semi-engaged public.
These pictures (properly doctored to abide by the Geneva Conventions and to protect the innocent) could do two valuable things. First, they might be so bad that no one, not even Limbaugh, will care to defend them. That would mean the end of Rumsfeld at a minimum.
And with the counterspin incapacitated, we might finally reach the critical mass of outrage we have all been impatiently waiting for.
Or not.
If the BooMan hypothesis, as stated above, happened, then the so called, pendulum, might swing our way sooner rather than later.
If sooner, then we might prevent more atrocities. And from that perspective I say the release of photos is worth the gamble.
I’m torn over it myself. I always get angry when, for example, the news shows someone on a stretcher due to an accident. There are some things we don’t need to see and some sense of decorum that should be extended to victims.
But I fear many Americans are living on Mars. When talk show pundits can still talk about Abu Ghraib like it was a fraternity hazing gone terribly wrong then perhaps more is needed. I wish the more could take the shape of the president addressing the nation and saying that rapes, murder and atrocities were committed at Abu Ghraib. But he lakes the moral courage or decency to do that.
So I remain torn. And at the same time grateful that I don’t have to make the decision.
I don’t think the release of these photos will put us at increased risk. Americans seem to be the only people in the world who don’t know what atrocities are being committed in Iraq, at Gitmo, etc. Not everyone on the planet needs documentary evidence to grasp what the Red Cross and Amnesty International have been saying for some time. We’re still living in a bubble of unreality, here, insulated by a less than diligent press, and a rather astonishing capacity for denial. I hope these pics provide a wake-up call, but I think it’s going to take more than that, unfortunately. Our sense of moral superiority is inculcated from a very young age, and it’s apparently very hard to shake.
with your overall point here. But I do differ on whether it will put us at increased risk.
These pictures are apparently so bad that they make the old one’s look like a daycare.
They are highly inflammatory. Some people will be driven to violence from seeing them. Pictures are more powerful than words…
I know. I’ve been reading a lot of Sy Hersh’s comments on this. They sound horrible. And, yes, a picture is worth a thousand words. But, I’ve been reading about the torture for some years now, going back to the early reports of “rendition.” It saddens me that it takes photographic evidence to shock Americans out of their complacency, and then to watch them passively accept the “few bad apples” line. Americans are living proof of Stanley Milgram’s research conclusions. Most people really are clueless sheep, who will accept the verbal assurances of any authority figure, rather than deal with the harsh realities we’re all responsible for.
Because my husband is a troop, I am very sensitive to the argument that elements of the torture scandal will put our troops at greater risk. I’ve sent countless letters to my representatives to that effect. It’s certainly possible that some of these photos will hit a tripwire in some people, inciting them to violence, but numerous such tripwires have already been triggered. We are despised around the world, far more than most Americans realize. It took that genius Tom Friedman, a trip to England to force him to the conclusion that the torture scandal has already galvanized public sentiment against us. But, it has. The damage has been done. These photos will be icing on the cake, but the cake has been baked, cooled, and turned out of the pans, for a while now.
but a tripwire is a tripwire.
I’m not dogmatic on this. I think the pictures would be useful for getting Americans to come to grips with what has been done in our name, and to demand accountability for it.
But I also see the merit in the argument that rba laid out in this thread.
It’s unfortunate that we have such lousy choices.
The truth will out, and it needs to. The comparison to the Germans being forced to confront the horrors of the camps works for me. We cannot begin to heal as a nation, until we confront the horrors that we are responsible for. And we are all responsible. We have much to atone for, as a nation. The longer we keep our heads in the sand, the worse this is going to get. The more this Administration gets away with the more brazen they become.
And, I am sick to fucking death of these weak, chickenhawk cowards hiding behind the military every time they’re confronted. It’s stolen glory, and exploitation of our armed services. People protest an illegal war. They beat the country into submission with, “You have to support the troops! You put them in danger if you protest.” I would argue that they put them in danger, when they launched an ill-conceived war. “You can’t show pictures of torture! You’ll put the troops in danger!” I would argue that they put the troops in danger when they skirted the Geneva Conventions and started looking for loopholes in the law to allow coercive techniques that may or may be “torture,” per se. Repeatedly they have put the troops and the country in an untenable position and then played the fear card, to keep us in line. It’s a form of extortion, and I’m sick of it.
My husband certainly would not pretend to speak for all Marines, but he wants to see the pics come out. The sentiment among Bush loving Republicans in his office, when the torture scandal broke was: fire Rumsfeld, execute anyone who participated in abuse, and put their commanding officers, all the way up the chain of command, in jail. You want to make the troops and the country safer? Let’s hear the whole ugly truth, and frog march these criminals out of the White House. Show the world that we hold the government accountable. Then maybe, just maybe, the world will begin to forgive us.
you sum it up very, very well.
And Rumsfeld’s continued employment is flabbergasting.
The truth will out, and it needs to.
I think we all agree on that one. But better that truth is presented as evidence at trial – the proper venue – than released and propagated worldwide by the press. Is our disgust at this administration so great we are willing to abandon our institutions, our beliefs, to see them brought down?
First, my disgust:
I’ve written about this a couple of times, in different ways. The orders Rumsfeld gave for detainee treatment were illegal. Obviously, the actions taken at Abu Ghraib were related to the orders Rumsfeld made-up for Gitmo. But these acts are only illegal if someone is willing to call them illegal and JUDGE them as illegal. Otherwise, they are a precedent, and they establish the legality of torture.
There are no words to express my disgust with Abu Ghraib. If that is what our military has become as an institution, then I don’t mind tearing it down. It will probably benefit from the experience in the long run.
Showing these pictures doesn’t offend my beliefs at all. My only concern is with what the result will be. Will the upside outweigh the downside. That is the part I am having trouble deciding.
By “our beliefs” I was referring to the basic tenet of innocent until proven otherwise, not the specific issue of the pictures. That stated, I agree with everything else you’ve written.
Remember that Rumsfeld actually “resigned”, but stated in committee that resignation was refused by Bush (in answer to Kennedy’s demand). Perfect. De facto approval of the actions taken by Rumsfeld, including the issued, then retracted torture policy on detainees.
The list of former JAGs from a variety of times and services who’ve signed on to McCain’s amendment can’t be ignored. Nor can those more recent JAG attorney’s who challenged the detainee policies (ACLU “Heroes”).
My read is these idiots have built their own coffins. Post-election they’ve installed Gonzales @ DOJ, elevated Condi & Rove, kept Rumsfeld, sent John-boy to the UN, and Wolfie to the World Bank. They’ve left their tracks in wet concrete – now solidified – and their sheer arrogance will bring them all down.
That’s the upside. The torture pics are only one small tear in a rapidly-shredding fabric.
I’m not military, nor ex, but I have family and friends who were and I did my ROTC time until Uncle Ronnie started making “evil empire” noises and it started to become apparent I was on a track to an early grave… and that really didn’t appeal much so I left. I left, though, with an abiding respect for the professionalism and training of the US military. I hate the political uses to which they’re put, but I have nothing but deep respect and admiration for the guys on the ground. They deserve a LOT better than they’re getting from the chain of command.
And it strikes me that, even allowing somewhat for the corrosive effects of neoconservatism on the officer corps, I still cannot fathom anyone in a frontline unit who would NOT want to know exactly what the hell went wrong at AG, Gitmo, and how the US military, with all its professionalism and proud traditions, came to be mixed up with all of that crap.
It’s also worth noting that personnel on the ground in Afghanistan during the riots, including as I recall high-ranking US military personnel, said that the Newsweek story had nothing to do with causing the riots… the government knows what those pix show, they know if the pix get out there will be hell to pay all over the world and their personal butts may be on the line, and they’re grasping at anything, even (perhaps especially) stories that ain’t so, to protect themselves.
I call bullshit.
Very good point. I think it was a famous cricket player from Pakistan who made a big deal of the Koran in the toilet article, but it is not clear how much that had to do with the riots.
Let’s be clear about this: if Americans are put at increased risk it won’t be because of the release of footage of young boys being sodomized while our soldiers make snarky comments. It will be because young boys were sodomized while our soldiers made snarky comments.
The fault for the consequences lies in the acts, not the proof of the acts.
Burn this into your brains because when (not if, when) these photos and videos get released, it will be a right-wing talking point that the photos are a threat to our security and anyone who wants them released wants to make Americans less safe.
It’s bullshit. But if we don’t prepare ourselves for it then the bullshit will work.
It has before.
Interesting discussion, brings up points I might have missed totally due to outrage. I still think the pictures should be released though, the right wing are so far from grasping reality that they need the jolt and those who are hovering in the middle ground, undecided on the occupation might also get a wake up call. I don’t know how much stir this will make in the middle east, as people do get released from time to time and their stories are told and spread I don’t think it’s going to be a great shock, I mean, people who’ve been tortured and lost family members and such, they know this already! This is hardly news. We’re the only ones who don’t or won’t accept this as truth without pictures.