The 1940’s were difficult and fearful times. In 1941, Pearl Harbor in Hawaii was attacked by the Japanese and American men by the thousands and eventually millions either joined the military or were drafted to serve. During that time frame all manner of businesses, but especially war and defense industries were replacing male workers with females. Someone had to build the ships and planes and all the other manufacturing needs. . .and there were only women, for the most part, to do that.
The conventional wisdom of that time was women’s work was only valued at what the norm or median of women’s earnings in the market place was. FDR and the National War Labor Board urged businesses to pay women in their new positions in industry an equal amount to what a man would earn doing the same work. Urged but did not regulate or require it. Oddly, businesses did not comply. Not only did they ignore the “voluntary” pay scale equality, they sent women packing at the wars end. These were, after all, men’s jobs.
In the help wanted columns of the newspapers until the mid 1960’s there were “help wanted-Male” and “help wanted -Female” columns in the newspaper. Our society knew very well what jobs were men’s jobs and what jobs were women’s. It was not until 1963 that JFK signed the equal pay act that became law in April 1964. Never to be deterred, businesses gave men and women different job titles for the same work so that men could be paid at a higher rate in spite of the law. The reasons given: Men just won’t work for such low wages.
It took two landmark court cases to expand the law to cover such deceptive and unfair practices in 1971. Schultz v Wheaton, in the 3rd District Court, and Cornning v Brennan in the US Supreme Court, now made it illegal to change the titles of jobs for the purpose of paying men more, and further defined that work did not actually have to be exactly the same but primarily similar in scope and skills required. At this point women were making 59% of what men made for similar work and skill levels.
We have come a long way. . .maybe. In 2002 we have women at 74% of men’s wages. A gain of a half a penny a year from the 1964 Equal Pay act. My! What progress.
My purpose was not so much to talk about wages as it is to talk about opportunities. Yet it seemed important to lay some of this conventional wisdom ground work. It was the opportunities that outraged me as a young woman, or rather the lack of them. There were all manner of on the job training for entry level management positions at good salaries for men. There were none for women. I speak from my experience of living in Salt Lake City during the 1950’s and 60’s. It may very well have been somewhat different in larger metropolitan areas, or not. When I read the want ads in the newspaper, and I always read the want ads, I would look longingly at the job opportunities for men verses the ones for women. If you were a woman you better resign yourself to an entry position of file clerk, unless you had very good typing skills and then you could be a typist and hope to aspire to secretary if you could take dictation. If you had a degree in accounting, you could become a bookkeeper. . .no not an accountant. . .a bookkeeper. You could strive to eventually become the “head bookkeeper.” If you were neither an accountant or a skilled typist, there was always waitress, motel maid, cleaning woman, bakery assistant, store clerk, domestic help, nursing home aid, nurses aid, or nanny.
Being the rebellious soul that I was, I would call on the men’s jobs and be told it was only for a man. I would ask for the details of the job in order to rebut their claims it could only be held by a man. I would tell them I could do each and everything required and was willing to. They would tell me that even though that might be the case, I would only get married and have a baby and the company would lose all they had invested in me in training. I told them I was not going to get married and have babies. They told me that would change, and they just couldn’t hire a woman for such a demanding job any way. And besides, women have that “monthly problem” and that just wasn’t acceptable in a serious work environment. Yes, I was actually told such insulting and infuriating things.
Surely it would be different at University. You could pick any career you wanted and get your degree and tell them all to go to hell. In the early 1960’s that was not the case. You could not pick any career you wanted. And even if you managed to get accepted into that major curriculum, and managed to survive the openly hostile environment of fellow students and professors, you had to fight your way through the corporate hiring practices after graduation. If you were able to be hired in spite of enormous odds against it, you had the rest of your life to fight tooth and nail for any and all advancement and just ordinary acceptance in a hostile work environment. Your fellow employees resented you. Your boss really resented you, after all you were taking away a job from some deserving man who had or would someday have a family to support. Ask Sandra Day O’Connor. She was offered a secretarial job after receiving her Law Degree. Did some determined women make it through the barriers? Yeah, they did. Did they still have to battle all the battles everyday of their working lives? Yeah, they did.
There is a lot more to relate to you about the blatant and hostile discrimination I and my sisters in the work force and society in general were subjected to. So look for subsequent pieces on these issues.
I hope the youngsters out there will come to see in a very real way that the opportunities that they have for the moment were really hard fought, and passing laws did not necessarily mean changes came easily if at all. That is why we long in the tooth older women are overly concerned with what our current administration is doing and plan to continue to do to women and their opportunities in our society. Fueled by the rantings of the religious fanatics, their intentions are clear. And those of us who remember how it used to be are sounding our voices of alarm.
You’ve come a long way baby, cause look at you now ; )
great diary, KUDOS & RECOMMENDED
Thanks for your encouragement, Infedel. I have lots more to say about those times and events and more recent times and events that make me wonder how far we have really come. So this will be just one in a series.
outstanding, I’ll be looking forward to them. KUDOS
And those (usually younger) women who say “I’m not a feminist should have these stories as part of their education.
Yes they should! And our history education about most things in the country is sorely lacking.
I used to wonder what happened to the women’s movement. . .then someone told me that it took a turn because women were being called lesbians if they were feminists. . .and I said. . .yeaaaah? I didn’t get it. . .then I remembered just because I’m a lesbian, not all women were, and I wouldn’t have found it disparaging if I were not a lesbian. Sometimes it is just confusing to be out of step with the main stream. LOL
Great diary and one that I wish would be read by young women in their early 20’s say. Far to many of them have no idea how extremely hard the fight for basic working and other rights for women were and is still ongoing. Or even find it hard to believe that there was such a thing in the want ads as men/women jobs.
I remember as short a time ago as the mid 80’s when I went to community college(in my 30’s) and had young girls tell me that we didn’t need feminists anymore cause we were equal now..ha ha ha. Yeah like the summer job I had where a extremely capable, smart women who had worked at this company for many many years had to train some guy with no experience and in several months he became her boss..with of course a very large pay increase dwarfing her pay scale.
You’re experiences were being played out by millions of women day in and day out and unfortunately are still being played out to some extent today.
I’ll look forward to all diaries you do on this subject. Speaking of WW11..a movie called Swing Shift with Goldie Hawn, Kurt Russell and another great actress(whose name is eluding me)was about women working while the men were away.
Yeah, I remember the movie. . .Christine Lahti, Holly Hunter, Ed Harris, among the many notables in the cast.
Our schools barely teach any history these days, least of all anything about the struggles of women to find some measure of equality.
There is plenty of the hostile work environment and “getting around the laws” going on today as they were in the 80’s and 90’s. My next diary will cover some of my experiences with that.
Thanks for your comments.
The IT industry is especially bad for that. A lot of IT workers are biased against women – badly biased. You see a lot of comments like “I’ve never seen a woman programmer produce good, maintainable code”… Though, often, the individual in question will, when pressed, admit that they’ve never seen a woman programmer as most, inexplicably, avoid them. You also still get the “we can’t hire you because you’ll just go get married and have kids” line… Only these days, companies don’t actually invest anything into their workers. So it’s not just bigoted, it’s hypocritical too. And then you get the people who “respect” the women in their lives too much to allow them to face the stress and agony of earning money…
Another incredibly biased workforce is where I’m at in California by Bakersfield and the heart of the oil industry here….you can imagine all the excuses/attitudes towards women from men(and lots of women) in the oil industry here. And I don’t just mean the guys who crew the oil rigs either but on into management and upper management. Pretty dark ages crap in general.
in the Petroleum Industry for women. I used to work for a major oil company in the Finance Dept. The comptroller never allowed women foreign experience, cause it was dangerous. Yet, that was an avenue for promotions and raises. All of the higher management had foreign experience. I think they allow foreign service for women now. Most of the management were old white fat guys from Houston or thereabouts. Frustrating as hell.
I’m really hazy on this but wasn’t one of the original programs or codes(Cobalt?) written by a woman in the military?
She’s credited with creating the first compiler. She didn’t create COBOL but she was involved with the development work that led to its creation.
Here is her wiki entry
Heck, Ada Byron was the world’s first computer programmer.
Ah, geeze. . .it makes me sick. It’s bad enough all the toe to toe in their face confrontations I had with the “men in charge” over the years. . .I keep hoping women can someday stop having to fight for the crumbs of existance.
(and I am not so sure that companies invested all that much in their workers in my day either, but anything was too much to invest in a woman)
There was slightly more investment in employees. More investment in training, for starters. That’s basically disappeared now – instead, you’re expected to have a college degree and four years of professional experience from day 1.
Many of my fellow IT and Computer Science types get on my nerves. They’re a surprisingly conservative and reactionary bunch, and that’s even leaving aside my beef with the general level of skill and attitude towards the profession…
I found this great article about Rosie at:
http://www.centercomp.com/cgi-bin/dc3/memorial?14513
“”My full name is Sarah Catherine Langley Langner. I was named
for my maternal Grandmother, Sarah Jane Whiting Root, and for my
paternal Grandmother, Catherine Palmer Porcher Langley.
When I was young I was always called Sarah, or, when I was in
trouble, Sarah Catherine. When I went away to College, I decided to
become Sally. In the past twenty years or so, I have tried
occasionally to return to Sarah with little success.
I was born in Philadelphia, PA on January 18,1925. (then goes on to tell more of her life;
(snip)
And then this at the bottom:
These fantastic women, filled the gap
when the men were needed on the front lines.
Yet the need for war production only increased,
and the women of this nation met that need.
they were uniformly called “Rosie the Riviter”
meaning production workers.
Our country treated these fantastic women shamelessly
at the end of the war
They were given “Pink slips” for dismissal
and told to go home and keep house
because the men were coming back and needed the jobs.””
Great diary shirlstars, and I definitely look forward to more.
Being born in ’54, what I remember is growing up with the dream that someday I could become Della Street. It never occured to me that I could be Perry Mason.
I LOVE the Rosie the Riveter picture!! One of the Dean for President t-shirts I wore all throughout the summer of 2003 had this picture on it – and she’s wearing a “Dean” button on her collar.
Boy, I sure realte to the dreams of “I wanna be. . .” I got so sick of being told I couldn’t and it wasn’t even right to think about the possibilities.
Yeah, Rosie was quite the gal and the image. Interesting how when it serves their purpose, those in power will promote the hell out of an idea they will soon degrade into not a proper thing for women to do.
Last spring, the California Democratic Party sent out this picture on a postcard — with Nancy Pelosi’s face. 🙂 Not sure if the in-laws still have theirs…
If you ever run across it, it would be fun to see it. Maybe you could scan and post it.
Even into the 70’s girls were counseled against seeking typically male fields of employment. My older sister told her high school counselor that she wanted to be a lawyer, and the counselor told her that wasn’t possible but she could be a legal secretary instead. That’s right, don’t aim TOO high. Sheesh.
I took two years of law school in ’69 and ’70 and was told from the beginning to aim for “Law Librarian” rather than lawyer. My real aim was not lawyer anyway, just important education for my own survival and practical use in whatever I ended up doing. . .but they damn near forced me into showing them I could be a lawyer if I damn well wanted to. I did tell you about my stubborn streak, didn’t I? LOL
are what keep us all going sometimes. My sister did indeed become a lawyer.
I witnessed the sub-equal treatment of women and the determination of one woman, my Mother, to demand her equality and right to be paid fairly for equal labor given, while growing up in a single parent household. My Mom worked her ass off at all kinds of jobs. Usually two at a time, but sometimes three. She pumped gas, waitressed, drove a dump truck (yeah, that’s right, my Mom had construction boots), all the while going to college in order to better her horizons and ours. Now, they’re weren’t many bosses who had the balls to give my Mom any shit, and if they tried to treat her as less than their equal, well….let’s just say there was hell to pay.
As a young father, I found myself in a situation similar to hers for a time when I was separated from my wife and was taking care of my three children for a couple of years. As Bush would say, “it’s hard work”. Now during this time that I was on my own, naturally situations arose where I would be in the company of many Mothers at school functions, doctor’s visits, and so on. Without fail, I was looked upon as some sort of super Dad by these women for taking care of my children, something, I thought, that any parent would do. The usual comment would be,” this must be so hard”, or ” you deserve a lot of credit”. These comments, while appreciated, always left me feeling uncomfortable because I knew the truth. Although it wasn’t easy, I felt like I had a much easier time of it than most single Mother’s would, simply because I was able to make more money than most women and therefore could afford a decent babysitter which allowed me to make more money which in turn made it easier for me to provide a stable home for my kids. I know for a fact that most single Mothers struggled mightily to keep things together for their kids mainly because without a man around to “provide” there was a vastly smaller amount of money at their disposal.
You may have noticed that I spell Mother with a capitol M whether speaking of my own or any Mother. That sums up how I feel about the women in this world who struggle and beat their bodies against the wall that has been erected in their path by men who seek to dominate and subjigate them, and the younger women of this country would be wise in the least to heed the voices of those who have come and struggled before them, because if they think their rights are safe now, they are naive.
Thank you Shirl for this fantastic diary and reminder not to become complacent.
Can I clone you?
Seriously, I’m the mother of 3 sons and a daughter, and I will consider myself a success if my sons speak about me with half the respect and affection you do about your Mother.
I raised them mostly by myself through very rough times and I cross my fingers that they remember at least 10 good times for every one of the times I yelled at them or locked myself in my room to cry.
Don’t worry, Laura. . .they will remember and respect what you gave them and how difficult it was at times to give them anything.
And, I have to say, it is absolutely stunning to see my words in your sig line. Wow! thanks.
Well Shirl, you say so many wise and beautiful things that it’s difficult to pick out just one! This one has particular meaning for me.
Well, thanks for that, but I haven’t mentioned any of the downsides, like having to arm wrestle my Mom for a few years until I finally beat her when I was fourteen and even then she didn’t give it up for a while. LOL
Seriously, we have some pretty strong disagreements and there were plenty of tough times and times when as a boy or young man, I struggled with the stereotype of what a Mother should be and how it affected me. The bottom line is that her struggles and refusal to quit or settle for second class treatment deserve respect period. She will always have my respect for that regardless of whether we agree on many different things or not. In watching her, I learned many valuable lessons that held me in good stead with my own future struggles. I would hope that there is really nothing special about me in how I see my Mother. She has integrity, like you do, and so I’m sure your sons and your daughter hold the same respect for you. How can you not respect a woman who raises her children by herself with all the obstacles they have to face?
Good to see you participating here. No wonder you are such a great guy, you come from wonderful strong stock!
A majority of my favorite guys were raised by single, very strong mothers who didn’t take any crap from anyone, and instilled a deep respect for women within their sons.
Thanks to your mom, and thanks to you for carrying on such a wonderful tradition.
Shirl, it’s mighty good to be here and to feel interested again. You guys are wonderful and I’m fortunate to have found all of you :O)
suit because my employer told me I wa a mother and he would not promote me. I had a job in the clerical ghetto and I wanted a promotion. 4 other women got promoted during that suit so they could claim they didn’t discriminate. Eventually they paid for my degree and I did in fact get promoted in that company although the boss told me to keep a low profile since I was a “trouble-maker”. It takes guts to stick ones neck out but I have 3 daughters and I did it for them. Would they do it for their daughters? I don’t know.
Bless your heart, somehow I knew you would be a “trouble maker!” Good for you! One of the best complements I ever had came from a “diplomatic” boss that told me I was “not exactly a compliant woman.” Not exactly? I guess not!!
In the help wanted “male” and “female” and hated what was offered to women. (I was growing up in the 50’s and 60’s.) All clerical and office jobs. Yechhh! For someone that wanted an outdoor job, it was hell on earth.
There was only one job that I remember that appeared to be an outdoor job, for a “horse-loving gal” that turned out to be donkey basketball and the guy really wanted to lure girls in so he could take advantage of them. Typical crap back then!
So sad that so many don’t get it even now.
Oh yeah, the sleaze ball guys. . .weren’t they a barrel of laughs. Went to be interviewed for a summer job on a road construction crew as a “Flag Person” in the early 70’s. . .some creepy guy who wanted/expected you to sleep with him or give him a BJ if you wanted the job. Yeeeeecccck!!
Ah, those were the days. . .
In the seventies I worked for a city agency that did community outreach and investigated civil rights complaints. Although I had some big community education successes and won several large discrimination cases, the achievement that made me happiest was probably seems the least significant — I got a call from a mother who was unhappy because her daughter wanted to be a school-crossing guard but was told that girls weren’t allowed. The woman was a city employee and didn’t want to file a formal complaint. I’d gotten pretty good at political gameplaying by then and I was able to finagle the Department of Public Safety (which ran the program) into changing the policy. So maybe not a big deal but with all the constant messages that girls got telling them things they couldn’t do, it was really important to me to know that there would be one less. I think one of the most successful ways to make big changes is do them one small change at a time.
BTW, my mom-in-law did welding on LST’s during WWII. Even though she lost (like all the rest of the “Rosies”) the job at the end of the war, she believes that the experience permanently changed her from a shy, awkward girl into a confident woman.
Objects in the mirror of life review may appear smaller than they actually are. No small thing! I just love senseless acts of righteous kindness!
Bravo. . .and big Shirl hugs for making a difference!
Now that’s a measure of a life.
I bet many posters on this thread would enjoy Vicki Leon’s series of “Uppity Women” from Ancient Times to the New World Era. My mother, who’s 91 has a favorite in the series (and its near-kin companion duo “Outrageous Women”), it being women of the Middle Ages.
My favorite uppity woman? Probably Queen Isabella, co-equal ruler of Spain, and the visionary one.
These Uppity and Outrageous women’s tales are light and fun casual reads, but factual enough to be inspiring. And they make great gifts
Thanks for the reminder, been meaning to pick up the Uppity Women book. . .and I can always use some fun, factual and inspiring in my life!
My first women’s issue came early- I was 10 and very excited about Little League try outs. I grew up playing hardball baseball with my 10month older brother and dad and I was WAY better than my brother. We were both very excited about finally being of age to sign up for little league. With our new baseball gloves in hand we ran to the community park to start the try outs.
When I approached the picnic table to sign up the ‘man’ asked me what I wanted. I said I wanted to play baseball. He bluntly said “Girls don’t play baseball.” I childishly said “Well I do.” And was then again told that girls could not play Little League. It must’ve been obvious to him that I was upset because he then offered to let me be the equipment ‘manager’. I was stunned to the core and ran home in tears. That was in the early 60s.
And it is still a man’s world. The stories I could tell…
Isn’t it so. . .so many little girls that wanted to play little league or other organized sports in those days. Where I was, there sure weren’t any such things available for girls. Bravo for those little girls and their parents that kicked those doors down.
I had a similar experience in the 70s with little league football. We were young enough that it wasn’t even tackle football yet, it was flag football and they still told me I couldn’t play because I was a girl. I was furious. I was told that girls could be cheerleaders.
I certainly wanted to be something, so I joined the little league cheerleading squad. It was all right, but not really what I wanted to do. We were a very good squad, though, and we won the big trophy at the local cheerleading jamboree even while the football team we cheered for lost every game they played. This stunning loss record led me to press again to join the football team. This time some of my girlfriends tried with me. None of us girls were happy being cheerleaders for a losing team, and we knew we were better athletes than some of the boys were. We didn’t see why we had to sit on the sidelines with pom-poms while our team got its ass kicked every week. But we were shut out again. No girls allowed.
So we got together, discussed the issue, formed a local soccer team and never looked back. We won plenty of trophies playing soccer, and by high school my team won State.
It was an important early lesson in senseless sexism and how to try to combat it and not lose yourself in the process.
My husband had been dead six months when I went to get a library card at a new library. (I had supported all us throughout his long illness, paid all the bills, etc.) I was not allowed to sign up with my own first/last name; I had to use my full married title: Mrs (his first name) (his last name.)
I was so shocked, I exclaimed..”But…he’s DEAD!” To which the prim and proper librarian replied, “Well, you’re still his wife!” I am not making this up.
I also discovered I had NO credit rating (everything was in his name), and could not get a credit card or a even though I’d been the breadwinner. It was like when he died, my identity was buried beside him. Ah the good ol days…NOT!
Oh yeah. . .the you are nothing unless attached to a man, thing. 1970, Lexington, Ky. . .I thought I might want to buy a house. I had the GI Bill, so I thought it might be a good step to take. Several Realtors later, I finally found one that said maybe there was a way for a single woman to buy a house, but it wouldn’t be easy. I couldn’t figure for the life of me what being single had to do with buying a house. Turns out it was more of being a woman thing than a single thing.
The good old days. . .not
Darned right it was. THIS..is the kind of world so many “religious folks” in this adnministration, want us to return to. This is the world we’ll have too, unless we all get on the same page within the Democratic party. You cannot whittle away at basic freedoms, giving up a piece here or there, and have freedom survive.
You said it sister!
Yeah, I remember those biased times. I remember no credit for women, no opportunities, no thought of going into half our public spaces or anywhere after dark un-chaperoned. I remember regulation about locations and orientation of specified numbers of specified types of limbs when visiting fellow university students. I remember those times when I see any portrayal of years much before Reagan, by the young actress sauntering around, mouthing off in ways that would have got her slapped down or expelled from you-name-the-institution in the 50’s up to the 70’s.
The full risk of takeover by the rapture right is not the fate of abused or accidentally pregnant women–as bad as it would indeed be for them–it’s what will happen to women across the board.
My Florida Mom was a Rosie the Rivetter, a ball bearings inspector who upon finding flaws was told in no uncertain terms what her official results would be for The Duration. Then a school teacher, but lucky for her and many others, that was her true talent. Daughter of steel workers from the days when Ohio was somewhere, and to this day a fighting Democrat.
I brought my wife out of a glass-ceilinged industry in the mid 1980’s, into university work where at least sometimes minds could be minds and people could be who they are. Still, she was bumping into glass ceilings into the Clinton years. Meanwhile in a computer tech dept. I persuaded the group to change vendors away from one who dealt obviously worse with our group’s women than the men.
Adversity is often opportunity. So who’s going to find the way forward that takes advantage of the suppressed and neglected talent? We’ll probably need some kind of inside-out or upside-down thinking, possibly some ideas from outside the mainstream we’re used to.
It might even come from a woman.