For those of you here who missed it, BooMan contributed an important diary to dKos the other day, a response to a complaint by Kos that (as Phil Ochs wrote in another context) “demonstrations are a drag”–and to other developments on dKos over the last year.
It’s an important statement about both the Daily Kos and BooMan Tribune (BooMan even talks a little about why he started this blog), and I think it’s worthwhile for anyone here to go over and take a look.
Now, I don’t agree with BooMan completely. Some of the things Kos says do have validity, in my opinion. On The Daily Show Jon Stewart poked fun at the demonstrators for the same things–basically, that many on the left try to take advantage of single-issue demonstrations like the one last weekend to promote other agendas. But I am becoming more and more uncomfortable with dKos (if you are interesed, I posted a diary over there explain a little bit of why).
dKos is not a community-driven site. Decisions on its focus do come from the top, though we Kossacks do have some imput.
BooMan could provide the same sort of “direction” here but, so far as I know, has not–to date.
It’s a relief to hear his views, for it makes clear that he is aware of the danger. That awareness will, I believe, keep him from falling into the traps set by the possibility of “control.”
Thanks for the heads up. I will go take a look now.
I was watching that thread carefully until it got to just over 100 comments. (By that time it was very late here on the east coast.) Kudos to BooMan for his diary and comments. There were a pretty fair number of people in agreement but many apparently did not understand the thrust of the diary. But of course some kossacks accused BooMan of posting it for the purpose of boosting this site. Huh?
That bothered me, people accusing BooMan of self-promotion for that diary.
Even if he were writing, in part, to promote this site, what he says in that diary still needs to be considered.
So what’s the point of the accusation?
None, if you ask me.
I have noticed that Boo often gets accused of that over there. I was glad to see that Armando made it clear that he didn’t think that was what it was about, so that others might actually read and consider what was being said (did I really just defend Armando? 🙂 )
It was apparent to me that a good number of people didn’t even read the whole diary, which is a shame, because I thought it was extremely well-written, and in such a way as to invite discussion instead of a flame war. And it’s something that needs to be said. How do you form a coalition by dismissing everyone else as less important than you? You don’t.
I have a giggle everytime I see it!
Yep, some serious eyerolling going on here as well — especially the “proof” for the accusation by using the fact that he links to his blog in his sig line. Oh, the horror! How many people do that?? How assinine.
It just makes me go, “Jeebus, are you folks that selectively blind?”
People are funny..funny weird, that is.
Please do not go to my site. I don’t want anyone to see it.
How silly anyone is, who finds something wrong with promoting one’s own site while participating in another.
BooMan’s comments are important to dKos and the Kossack community. If that fact ends up bringing more people here, that’s fine with me.
I went to your site, just to spite you!
And I’m delighted to see a fellow Pennsylvanian who supports Chuck Pennacchio.
No chest-thumping, though? What are you, some kind of touchy-feely blogger? 🙂
Two of you? It can’t be! From everything I have heard it just can’t be!
Dang it, I told you not to do that!
By the way, if you are interested, I did an interview with Pennacchio for ePMedia.
But don’t go over and read it!
Neener, neener, neener! I al-ready read it! (Cho saw me asking about it in a thread awhile ago and gave me the link.)
The rest of you should go read, and if you’re so inclined, I know Chuck would really welcome any contributions (it’s the last week of the quarter for FEC filing).</shameless plug>
That Cho, she keeps blowing my cover!
I gave Chuck fifty bucks and would love it if anyone who can does the same.
that Chuck went to the DC march this past weekend? Just thought you all ought to know…
He sometimes will take a Kos directive to the extreme but he has a good heart and despite trying to be a good soldier the caring comes through.
There are times I want to choke Armando… but, you are right: he has a good heart.
I agree…even if he’s a bit misguided sometimes.
I love Armando and defend him. And you see that he will defend me too. I’m glad you can see the humanity behind the combative exterior.
Armando’s responses to your diary were, I think, much more perceptive than Kos’s.
He kept his comments simple, for one thing. He knew that he should, and did so.
Ha! That’s the first line of response from the neo-Kossack Praetorian Guard — “You’re just jealous! You just want to take him down a notch because he’s bigger than you! You’re just trying to steal traffic to your site! You’re just trying to stir up controversy to get traffic!”
These comments from people who regularly gather in mojo-boosting circle jerks.
BooMan’s just the latest to hear that chorus. Actually, who knows. Someone else could’ve been serenaded that tune since then.
grab bag thing kind of going but……………..
#1. This is America and everybody has a voice.
#2. We were all riding that Crawford wave in and I can’t blame anybody who showed for different reasons for showing up, if I were them I would have too.
#3. Those with different agendas and goals realized that this wave wasn’t going to do it for them.
#4. Cindy and company, Iraq veterans and Vietnam veterans and Veterans for Peace and military family members and all of our supporters just watched our wave play out, but we knew it was going to we just didn’t know when. We all met up again though and touched hands and touched base and now we prepare for the next step of civil disobedience. It is no skin off of our ass either, it starts taking skin off of our ass when we do nothing and remain unheard and unacknowledged. I know that it may be hard for people to understand who didn’t lose something to Iraq or Vietnam why those of us who did are now going to become human road blocks, maybe some never will understand. The march for us though wasn’t about any certain success, the only certain success there is for us is the day that the planes from Iraq land and all of our soldiers get off of them.
AMEN!
that saying “The journey of a thousand miles begins with one small step,” when people question what protest accomplishes.
Ok, so missed the 60’s protests because I was busy trying (and failing) to become a June Cleaver Model Stepford Wife. I missed this one because NOW I’m an old poor lesbian grandmother who can’t hardly walk, much less afford trips to Washington. (Hey..I see this as progress!) Anyway, on to this dream.
I am at a huge anti war rally with a bunch of folks like you all. It’s a sit in..and I am sittin..boy an I sittin! (I am a large woman with a large wheelchair) I want those cameras rolling when a bunch of police try to pick ME up and stuff me in a van. 🙂
My hero!
As someone who watched all this go down in the 60s I’m really amused by the whole thing. Don’t worry, both Boo and Kos are riding hobby horses. Watch this whole thig wander off into semantics and control issues that no one has any control over. Go clean for Gene. Humorless Maoists with seperate agendas. Ernest suburbanites. Idealist statements about “community” which usually have no idea that someone’s got to take out the trash. I’m going to happily go on being a member of both places and others. Shakespeare could have fun with this.
Yeah… I remember all of that, too.
And wandered away from the “mainstream” left in 1970 and into the environmental movement, then aborning.
Later, the environmentalists got to be the same way.
What I’m trying to do, these days, is have more patience for the discussion. And even to participate (to a degree).
After all, this type of controversy isn’t going to go away.
Yeah Baby! Loved the money quote from Emma Goldman. You’ve seen them trying to dance I can tell.
Agree with Aaron and Rolfyboy. ‘We have all been here before,we have all been here before’- (Crosby,Stills,Nash,Young).
Fracturing is a consequence of growth.It is also a consequence of open discussion.
I think Kos has a point– that you can’t EFFECT change if you can’t AFFECT elections.
That is his purpose.And that is OK.
If you look at all the spin-offs from that site-there is a huge amount of very valuable sites that have evolved and that is all to the good . The more the merrier!
I happen to be conflict-avoidant, and so I skip around- look for where I can do some good and don’t bother with where I can’t.
I think Boo’s diary over there was very good,very thought provoking, and that, I think, was BOO’s purpose.
As for slamming him for promoting BooTrib, well that is just childish of whoever said that.This site is growing by leaps and bounds,with very little promotion.
As for throwing people overboard , (whether gay,feminist ,enviros, or whoever is next to walk the plank) (nice mixed metaphor there), that is always a function of power.And power corrupts.
</sermon>
That’s the difference between uncoordinated activism and professional politics.
I read the diary over there last night. Unfortunately I may have been the one that started this because I quoted Kos here in an open thread yesterday because it so pissed me off.
Booman wrote everything I was feeling but so much more eloquently than I ever could have. The thread stayed pretty decent for a change and much to my surprise. Even Armando came to his defense. I think the ones flaming Boo are the usual Kos cultists that believe the great Kos can do no wrong. Remind you of anyone(party)else?
I think power and fame does corrupt for the most part and that is a shame. There was a time that I thought dkos was a gathering place for intelligent, mature debate. A place to try and figure out what went wrong with our party and work together to fix it. Unfortunately I know longer feel that way and it seems around 2200 others have felt that way too, including Booman that had the guts to risk oeping his own site.Boy, did I ever luck out when I made a click of the mouse to check out what Booman’s site was all about.This is home for me now. Yesterday just about did it for me when it comes to Dkos. I just don’t feel like screaming over the crown there. I get enough of that from the pundits thank you.
Man I was flaming….then I went over to Booman and you had already put up your 2 cents so I just added mine below. The debate is good, good soup always needs to be stirred Lee while it is simmering and all the flavors marry!
Like you, I feel more comfortable here, though I’ve been in a few spats even with Tribbers, than I ever felt on dKos.
Not that I will stop posting on dKos!
Booman consides himself a Kossack, and he is. And therefore he’s earned the right to go there and challenge anyone he wants, right to the top. I personally could care less whether or not dKos is purging people, and I wish it weren’t such a frequent topic of discussion here. So Kos thinks protesting is useless. Big fuckin deal. If he wants to reveal his naivete in public, great. People will, and are seeing it and are finding where their allegiances lay. I know the truth and that is all that matters.
I will give credit to Kos on this one point, he actually engaged in the discussion with Booman and in my opinion he should do that more often. It would go a long way toward reversing his higher plane, I know better than you approach that I believe is damaging his community.
When I start seeing actual results from his “approach” then maybe I’ll give it more creedence. Until then, he’s just another blogger to me.
Right on Super!
to read the whole thread and finally get to the part where Kos responded. I used to think Kos was a progressive but now I know he is all about winning and doesn’t care about principles — voting rights, gay rights, women’s rights, etc. He just wants his political machine to replace their political machine. He doesn’t realize that the Repubs got where they are by embracing their “lunatic fringe” and giving them mainstream cover. <sigh>
I don’t think Booman should waste any more effort trying to sway the direction dKos is going. They can have their brazillion screen views from harsh, arrogant Gen-X-er’s repeatedly hitting refresh on their juvenile flamefests. They can have their hyper-inflated membership roster — I mean, once a member always a member when you don’t have an un-register option. The truth can be found in the number of participants in Kos’ recent straw polls — I’d have to look it up to be specific and I don’t want to waste my time — but the number was significantly lower than the membership numbers they crow about.
Let’s do as Markos suggested and “move on.” Let’s concentrate on making BooTrib a different kind of political forum that serves our needs as progressive activists.
Ah, at the risk of groans from all ya Tribbers (the use of “brazillion” above sparked this off):
Someone reported to George Bush, “Mr. President, three Brazilian troops died today.”
“Oh, my God!” Bush bent his head to the table, almost weeping, clearly upset.
Except to Condi, who was sitting at his side and could see his face, now turned away from the others. To her, he whispered, “Condi, how much is a brazillion?”
I know, you’ve heard it before. But I couldn’t resist.
That’s where I got the “brazillion” and it made me laugh so hard that I’m going to use the word for a while just to cheer myself up.
I was pleased by the march but I was dismayed on the agenda of it. I thought it was to be antiwar! I really looked forward to this agenda to get the message across to the WH and everyone else…as did everyone else in the world. Why it got side whacked I do not understand. There are some agendas I do not want to be connnected with. I wanted to be connected with the antiwar agenda….this is what it should have been all about int he first damn place…
This has to be corrected and soon!!!!!!! Very soon……..
It was that whole riding the Crawford wave thing. The most important part of it was that the antiwar groups got together again and aligned again. All that other stuff isn’t going to be their much for the civil disobedience now…….it is really the antiwar movement that has the energy, drive, and the blood and guts on the line to make that move and the sacrifices that will go with it and it is that next step for us. Try not to take it too hard that so much other junk showed up too, the antiwar movement was strengthened greatly from the march and we need it because the next steps are going to take a lot more out of us and really test our character and our determination!
I honestly don’t think anything anyone says will change much anything about the course of things over there. I do understand trying to, when one has a personal investment in wanting to preserve what was a very good thing. I read Boo’s intent that way.
For me, I work to remember a lesson well learned the hard way; to work hard to change the things I can, and to just let the hell go of the things I can’t. I’ve wasted enough life swimming up that stream. Now I usually choose to spend my time at places where there is a constructive exchange going on: where my contributions are welcome, and where, when I leave, I leave feel empowered,not diminished.
For you, Boo..I offer this.
You already have all you need.
Use what you have.
Well, uh, it worked. Just joined here after visiting a few times. Looks a little like dkos without the kos part. I’ll continue to post in different blogs, though. But I must say that dkos is beginning to have a bit of an odor, at least for me, from several perspectives.
Welcome NorCalJim.
Welcome NorCalJim! Make yourself at home.
Just adding my welcome to the chorus!
It’s customary for newbies to tell us a little bit about themselves in the Froggy Bottom Cafe (check the diaries list) so we can give you mucho mojo and hugs.
This place is more than a little dkos without the kos part. The quality of the diaries is excellent. The support is outstanding and the discussion is thoughtful. The front page posts are outstanding as are the front pagers who involve themselves in as many discussions as possible. I think you’ll enjoy yourself here.
We also get a bit goofy sometimes. That’s Susanhu’s fault.
Isn’t everything?
but I didn’t want to go there… 🙂
And another welcome to the frog pond from me.
NorCal? Ya wouldn’t happen to be in Arcata?
No. Lovely place & would love to move there. At the moment I’m in the Sacramento area.
when these perpetual wars are still raging on and Kos’s boy is drafted to protect some Texas oilman’s “property” in Iran … Kos will be at the head of the march.
He grew up a self-centered republican and like most of them he can’t see beyond his own belly botton.
The tendency is that every message almost always gets hijacked, whether by the mob, whether by a messenger who starts confusing his own importance with that of the message itself, or whether by people who just want to distort the message to increrase their own personal or group power.
This is why we are set up to constantly learn and evolve; why the process of “becoming” is so much more important than “arriving”.
The failure to understand this kinetic, constantly changing aspect of life is why so many of us “plateau” in our lives. We “arrive” somewhere, we accumulate wealth or fame or notoriety and then we become our own biggest fan; and it’s at this moment when we lose our hunger for new awareness; when we lose touch with the idea that there’s always more to learn, more to grow. It’s also why we then begin to not care so much about finding the truth and instead settle for accepting what’s easy or simply believing only what we want to believe.
Actors, politicians, artists and writers and musicians of all types stall out because of this phenomenon. Newspeople become complacent, lazy, pompous and self-centered, doctors and lawyers and teachers too slide into a sort of routine which lacks the necessary inquisitiveness required for them to remain on top of their game.
We are always becoming; the journey continues.
But, apparently, democrats will never win because of people like BooMan23…. diary
What piffle.
I gave you a 4 over there. And his first diary too…gave me a chuckle, it did.
That diarist didn’t read BooMan very carefully.
Oh, well!
You had better not get corrupted by all this power and new users and brazillion-bit-bandwith-blogging-bidniss. Otherwise I’ll post those dred pictures to out you for the “far-lefty” you really are under that reasonable, solidly progressive exterior.
Now, where did I put that copy of Photoshop……