That’s enough….
Shown repeatedly today on CNN was footage of an Iraqi home receiving a tank round from about 10 feet away.
War whore, pretty, blond, Blue Eyed, American Jennifer Eccleston has been to Iraq 5 times covering the war in Iraq. She reported that when genius American Captain Carabine decided to send a tank round into a “suspected insurgent hangout” what came out of the hangout were women and children, bloody, burned, dead and dusty. She made a point of noting how all dusty they got from the tank shell. There was almost no commentary on the inferior Iraqazoids who were killed injured and displaced.
CNN showed footage of the tank shooting a round of artillery from about 10′ away from the house. This is war! They chimed, after something like this you just have to get up and “move on,” said Jennifer with a tight smile.
I guess this is what American people want to hear.
CNN showed the people in horror exiting the home, no weapons, pleading don’t shoot, carrying their dead bloody children, limping and crying.
Jennifer said she wonders how long she can keep going on like this before HER number is up. She wondered about HER number right after showing the innocent …(and they are always innocent because the US is a predator nation invading a sovereign country illegally)…dead children and living wounded exiting the house. She wanted to make sure she could get this on camera, so genius child killer Captain Carabine let her set up her camera prior to sending the tank shell into the home of women and children. I guess it wasn’t THAT urgent that they get the insurgents right away, they had time to get a good camera shot and now I’m am sure that Jennifer is happy her story got on CNN. Is the Captain by any chance having an affair with this reporter? Inquiring minds…..
American soldiers are dumb, trained morons. That’s what they are and they keep proving it over and over again. Dummies trained them. After watching this I don’t care about these American Troops and the excuse the are just doing their job.
Many of the soldiers like killing people. That should be obvious by now. There’s plenty of video and photos of soldiers posing admidst the dead bodies, torturing, raping and killing. This captain is an idiot. American cruelty comes from the top but its expression is encouraged among those who are already cruel and those who have been trained to be cruel. I have had it with excusing American Troops. They are awful, they are incompetent, from the general to the private and that’s the norm. And that’s the damn truth.
What they are doing is cruel, pointless and stupid and you cannot escape being cruel, stupid and pointless simply because you are under order to do so. If you do stupid cruel things, you are stupid and cruel. There is no escape from that. That’s why so many people go crazy when they come back from a war and cannot reconcile themselves to what they did. If you act cruel and stupid it is part of your history, it becomes part of who you are. It is too late, nothing can change what you have done and emotionally you are fucked. It takes a Houdini to work through this kind of thing.
Jennifer Eccleston partner another comely CNN War whore lamented the previous night that she didn’t have her night scope on to catch a humvee being blown up….”she knows it sounds crazy but that’s what she does for a living”. What she does for a living is stupidly putting herself in danger so she can gratify her horrible perversity in promoting and witnessing human suffering.
That’s what the troops do; most of them take orders to promote human suffering. I could not believe they showed this more than once on CNN. I thought for sure it would be pulled because it made Americans look bad. What I didn’t understand is that CNN and it’s audience thinks it makes America look good.
You don’t think we should blame the troops? Tell that to the Iraqi’s who are being killed everyday for nothing like the Iraqi people in the house that Captain America Carabine blew up. Whoops!
There may be some good troops in Iraq. But they are the ones who are trying to get out of there, they are the one’s that are objecting. American troops can no longer be forgiven and the United States people can no longer be forgiven for supporting this Predator Nation, the United States of America. We are the dumbest people on the planet Earth. It all isn’t George Bush’s fault; he is merely our representative to the people of Earth. This war is ultimately all of our faults.
I understand your frustration – I really, really do. I’m antiwar and this type of thing is extremely difficult to see day after day but I have to have faith in at least some of my fellow men and women who choose to serve. Many are honourable and believe in their duty to their country. It’s not a job I would ever choose, but I think I understand why some do.
If you act cruel and stupid it is part of your history, it becomes part of who you are. It is too late, nothing can change what you have done and emotionally you are fucked. It takes a Houdini to work through this kind of thing.
It does, but it can be done. I’ve had PTSD for 10 years and it’s hell to deal with but it can be overcome or at least be made manageable with proper treatment – that’s the key – proper treatment.
Not that I want to add to your outrage but there’s a new book out by a former US Marine alleging genocide and atrocities by US soldiers in Iraq. The army says it has investigated and has found no substantiation to the claims – not that I trust military investigations – that’s for damn sure.
I have to cringe every time I hear Bush refer to the so-called “civilized” world. if we’re so damn civilized, why do we keep killing each other in these insane wars?
Thanks. I appreciate it. It can be unraveled, it’s just too bad though that it has to be.
Each person makes his or her own choices.
The crusader chose to murder, the reporter chose to dismiss the victims as less than human, Stu Piddy chose to remind you how your tax dollars are being spent, and what your children, if any, will be when they grow up, if they grow up, that is a decision that will be made by the children who survived the tank shell.
The best support that you can give your “troops” is not by “thanking them for their service” as a radio talk show host did to one who called in to recount his experiences torturing Iraqis, but to accord them the respect you would to any standalone human being, who makes his own decision of his own free will, based on his own moral values.
They are not helpless moral cripples. They deserve the right to take responsibility for their actions, which, if it were up to me, would include fair and open trials and a clean and habitable cell in which to await same, right to counsel, and humane treatment both before the trial and after it.
Yes, it’s a choice but…I won’t get onto the debate about the poor who go into the military to get a career and an education…for some it’s one of very few choices they actually have.
They are not helpless moral cripples. They deserve the right to take responsibility for their actions, which, if it were up to me, would include fair and open trials and a clean and habitable cell in which to await same, right to counsel, and humane treatment both before the trial and after it.
I agree. I am concerned, however, with their indoctrination which sometimes seem as forceful as being immersed in a cult. I’ve never been there. I don’t know. They aren’t “helpless moral cripples” but some can be shaped that way.
It is not limited to the actual crusaders. In fact, if the indoctrination were not so effective, it is extremely unlkely that so many millions of Americans would so readily not only accept, but support and defend atrocities and crimes against humanity, even at the cost of their own and their children’s future.
We are a culture of death. From the voters that put the Commander in Chief back into office. To the chimp himself. To Rummy and straight down the chain of command to that captain in the field. We, as a country, even those of us dissenters, are responsible. And we are a country that condones torture, rendition, lack of due process, war without cause, killing of civilians, etc. I can’t condemn those soldiers in the field without condemning us all though. Those are our soldiers. Our tax dollars bought the tank shell, paid for the training, and the gas to get them to that spot. Ike told us when he was leaving town. About this military-industrial complex. The Carlisle Group, et. al. BushCo. America. All one thing.
Someone I read this week (just another blogger, I think) said something like this: When we were fighting the Nazis, did anyone in America give a lot of thought to the fact that there must have been individual Germans within that country who did not support the actions of Hitler? I don’t know the answer. But I suspect it wasn’t given a lot of thought by many in the U.S. We just wanted to beat back the “evil” bastards, huh? I can only think that those on the wrong side of our bullets and bombs have the same inability to see our dissent. We are the problem to them. And until we dissenters here can stop this reality, I’m afraid we all deserve Stu Piddy’s criticism.
We, as a country, even those of us dissenters, are responsible.
I’ve had that stuck in my mind since last nite and my first reaction still holds – I, as a dissenter, refuse to accept responsibility for the crimes committed in the name of my country. If I know I’ve done everything I can to raise the consiousness of others in the name of that dissent, my conscience is clear.
I didn’t mean to indict you personally catnip. But, we are technically a democracy. We’ve got to take ownership for our country’s actions. I’m not happy with it either. But our country (hey wait — aren’t you in Canada?) is doing this. That’s not to say I’m feeling a lot of personal guilt. I am feeling charged and know I am fighting on the side of right in trying to end this war. But I don’t think history is going to remember me. It will remember what we (our country) did, and does from here forward.
What Stu Piddy really did was to take this incident and use it as an example of the evil of all “troops”
Stu Piddy should take your advice to treat each soldier as a stand alone human being instead of generalizing.
Our tax dollars did pay for the shell that killed those children. Our tax dollars also payed for the soldier who refused to participate in the killing of innocents. There is a struggle going on there, as well as here, between those who would continue to murder and those who would withdraw. I understand Stu Piddy’s outrage. I am full of it myself. But he/she is just wrong to say that every soldier is guilty fo commiting atrocities. In a perfect world I would expect those soldiers who witness these acts to disobey orders and refuse to fight, but I am in no position to judge them. It’s never that simple, unfortunately.
Well we are individuals connected by culture. It is our culture that has allowed this to happen. And culture is everything that has gone on before us. All the people from 1776 and before who came here. So the United States like a personality is really not as balanced and well adjusted as we might imagine ourselves to be.
This war is not a war of inidividuals but a war of cultures.
The culture we live in has, I would say, it’s good and bad sides. The era, this “time” that we live in demonstrates, a side which places less value on life and more on profit. Perhaps it’s historically related and demonstrated by the two great parts of our disparate culture, the North and the South. The South rules today.
when the gun is pointed at your little one’s head.
In spite of your attempt at shock value, it remains complicated. I am not in any way excusing anyone for being a part of the machine that carries out these atrocities. Hell, I’m a part of it. Guilty by association. But labeling all soldiers as murderes is the same as calling all Americans murderers because they live within it’s borders. Should I say that all Iraqi’s are murderers because they share a nationality with those who cut off the heads of relief workers? Or because of their fear allowed a mass murderer like Saddam Hussein to rule for decades unchallenged? There are many good people, of which soldiers are no small part, struggling to bring this criminal government and all it’s smaller working parts, to justice.
I will not suppose myself so wise and free of guilt that I will put myself in the shoes of an 18 yr. old kid who is frightened out of his/her mind and judge what it is that they should do in any situation. To be clear, I am not talking about the incident that Stu Piddy references.
For the vast majority of people, when someone chooses to murder or maim their child, the situation is very simple.
The predator either pulls the trigger and the child is dead or maimed, or he does not.
Most parents will not be consoled by someone explaining to them that the gunman took the child’s life because he wished to obtain a benefit, or because a politician lied to him, or another criminal told him to do it, or because in his culture killing certain children is the accepted norm, or the pedophiles’ favorite – he knew it was wrong but he just couldn’t stop himself.
But you make a good point. Within a cultural context where brutality and bloodlust are prized and praised, where parents willingly accept that their toddlers will grow up to be smiling torturers boasting and displaying their deeds on porn websites, the violent death of a little daughter or son may indeed be seen as a complicated issue that must be understood from the perspective of the ordinary American arms and energy investor.
This reads exactly like an LGF or Free Republic comment about Muslims.
Ok, please explain your solution. What more should I do as a citizen? What more should the soldier who is there who is not commiting crimes do? Or are we all condemned because the good side is presently losing? Are you saying that because there are parents who willingly accept that their children will grow up to be smiling torturers that I will accept the same for my children simply because I am an American? Are you an American defined by geography? If so, aren’t you just as guilty as me or the soldier who, I repeat, is not participating in atrocities. The soldier who is simply trying desperately to survive long enough to get back to their child?
If Iranian gunmen were in your town, destroying homes, murdering yoru family and friends, hauling people off to be tortured, what would you want the Iranian people to do?
Call me when you’re ready to storm the White House ’cause that’s what it’s gonna take.
the “troops” and the warlords that command them cease to accomplish the will and desires of the American people, I have every confidence that the American people will do just that.
Good point, but let me add something.
Much of it is possibly not intentional, but the result of tactics. The bomb doesn’t care what is below it as it falls, nor does the bullet care what is in front of it.
Tactics, such as using depleted uranium rounds, have the impact of unwanted casualties. If the standard tactic of responding to gunfire coming from a house window is to riddle the entire house with 20 millimeter cannon fire, then there will be civilian casualties. It doesn’t matter to the surviving relatives that their child was killed by apathy rather than intent.
But what is the emotional response on the agressors? One temporary solution is to dehumanize the people. Calling them Haji’s, ragheads, etc. It makes the killing easier (in the short term). Another way is to deny. Create an air of normalcy. The pool at the hotel in the green zone where there is everything but (legal) beer. Like the BBQ scene in “Apocolypse Now” the more they try to make it like home, the more they realize how far away that is. Another way to escape is sex, booze and other physical pleasures. The currency for the porn site is something very common. Pictures of the dead. And… in a perverse sense of logic, these pictures are reaching the public and creating outrage, even with the self censorship in the MSM in not showing gore. How else can someone explain what they saw “over there” in a way that people can truly understand without pictures. As to the remarks, are they a symptom of sociopathic behavior, or a symptom of someone trying to find a way of justifying the killing of a human being (as I mentioned earlier about the dehumanizing).
Combine all that and you have some seriously $*#( up individuals that will be returning to our society. Add in the true sociopaths that willingly participated in torture and killing, and I am truly worried.
Just some random thoughts on my part.
If I dehumanize you, regardless of my justification for doing it, it makes you not one bit less human, however it is unlikely that I will ever be entirely human again.
Absolutely, which is where a lot of the PTSD comes in, sometimes years later as the “dehumanizing” wears off.
Thank you, supersoling. Nor am I or any of us. What I fear is that some may be treated like so many of those poor souls who returned from Vietnam. Even after suffering in that hellhole, having their govenment spray them with poison, saving the lives of their buddies, and surviving themselves, they were villified.
My friend was one of those whose PTSD resulted in broken families, alcoholism, and homelessness. Now, 61 and sober, he’s dying from the late effects of Agent Orange. And I know others. This must not happen to combat troops who return from this war. This hate must not be spread!
Haven’t we learned anything yet?
Sure the troops should not be blamed….when they get back!
No one should be blamed for anything as soon as it STOPS.
You will be told as a matter of law that the obedience of a soldier is not the obedience of an automaton. When he puts on the American uniform, he still is under an obligation to think, to reason, and he is obliged to respond not as a machine but as a person and as a reasonable human being with a proper regard for human life, with the obligation to make moral decisions, with the obligation to know what is right and what is wrong under the circumstances with which he is faced and to act
accordingly.
From the prosecution’s summation in the court martial of Lt. Calley, 1971.
Your taxes are paying for the occupation of Iraq. Of course, you can “choose” to not pay your taxes–in which case the government will come ’round and throw you into prison, possibly for many years.
What’s that? You don’t want to go to prison? So you “choose” to pay taxes that support the illegal, immoral occupation of Iraq because the only alternative is prison?
Welcome to the world of the American and British soldiers. If they refuse orders to fight, they will be court-martialed and serve many years in prison. They will lose their rank, their pay, and possibly their pensions.
You demand that the soldiers pay a very high price to satisfy you, yet you are unwilling to pay that price yourself.
That is the definition of hypocrisy.
Damn this blog software. I wish to clarify that my remarks were in response to DuctapeFatwa, not DoubleHelix.
dismay that I remain at large.
And I would like to take this opportunity to say that instead of berating Stu Piddy, you should be thanking whatever deity believes in you that somebody in the US has the moral intestinal fortitude, not to mention respect for you, to tell you the truth without trying to put it into pretty words.
What Stu says is pretty mild compared to what people in the Majority World say every day.
US atrocities, synonymous now with US policies, are the single greatest threat on this planet to the safety and security of your family, and not just because one day one of those kids who survived the tank shell is going to do some rooting out and bringing to justice of his own, you don’t even have to wait for that. Your own politicians are willing to sit there and watch you slowly roast on a highway, if they think there’s a dollar in it for them, and not too many they can get out of you.
Ductape Fatwa:
Take your condescending attitude and stuff it up your arse.
Perhaps you feel that you have licence to abuse people here because of Booman’s favourtism towards you, but I assure you that licence does NOT extend to me. Not now, not ever.
And you have not yet answered my question: what risks are YOU taking to end the American/British occupation of Iraq?
Have you been arrested for refusal to pay your taxes? Taxes that are essential to the funding of the occupation?
Have you been arrested in a protest that attempts to prevent the transport of military equipment and personnel abroad (a serious federal offence in the United States as well as a grave crime in the United Kingdom, and one which can get you a stiff prison sentence).
I take your silence as an answer that you are a smug, smarmy, judgmental bastard who wants OTHER PEOPLE to risk THEIR necks for YOUR principles.
I respect those who back up their words with actions, and are willing to risk their own safety and freedom for their principles. You, sir, are not such a person.
I hope you will understand and not take it personally. It is not a value judgment, just personal preference.
I understand that insult wars and “flames” are very popular on the internets, and while not the custom here, just a few clicks away you will be able to find many eager participants who share that interest.
It would be unethical of me, however, to neglect to point out that you have made an unjust accusation against our host. I can assure you that he does not have favoritism toward me, in fact he and I have fundamental and irreconcilable disagreements on the most basic questions of US policies. I believe that you have misinterpreted his choice to allow expression of views that disagree with his own with partiality.
I believe this will be the third or fourth time in this thread alone that I say this, but it bears repeating as many times as is necessary, because one never knows who might be lurking, and how young and inexperienced they might be, but it is a very good idea to keep online and offline identities, as well as activities, separate.
In the case of anyone who might be involved in online activities that could be interpreted as opposing US policies or resisting them, that ounce of prudence on the matter of internet security can not only help your cause, it could save your life, as well as the lives of your loved ones.
Oh, please.
Did you really write, “In the case of anyone who might be involved in online activities that could be interpreted as opposing US policies or resisting them, that ounce of prudence on the matter of internet security can not only help your cause, it could save your life, as well as the lives of your loved ones.”???
You are a poseur of the worst sort. You speak as if you are involved in some sort of life-or-death struggle at which you stand in the centre…and must remain in the shadows for fear of your life, or some such. Yet the fact remains that you REFUSE to answer one simple question: ARE YOU REFUSING TO PAY YOUR TAXES TO SUPPORT THE WAR EFFORT, THEREBY RISKING IMPRISONMENT?
Once again, you write in circles and refuse to answer.
The answer is either YES or NO.
Perhaps your posing satisfies your own ego, but it does nothing to impress me. Nor would it impress anyone with a gramme of sense or intelligence.
I already have the answer, by the way. You refuse to risk your own neck, oh super-secretive one, whilst demanding that American and British troops risk theirs. Which makes you the moral equivalent of those right-winger keyboarders who want other people to do their fighting for them. You claim the politics of the Left, but in truth, your only guiding principle is the guiding principle of the war chickenhawks: other people fight my battles for me.
As for ad hominem attacks–your sneering contempt for others drips from other posts. And didn’t Booman just post an homage to you both here and on DailyKos just the other day? I bloody well know favourtism when I see it.
of the importance and seriousness of the topic of internet security, especially as related to sensitive issues.
Again, I am primarily addressing young people, (though it is good advice for all ages) who at some point may become a participant in offline activities that could be interpreted as opposition to a brutal regime.
Though, to the distress of my enemies, I have been privileged to live a most extraordinary number of years, and have thus become somewhat immune to such, for young folks, it can be a great temptation to discuss your personal history, your activities, and one of the tried and true techniques that you can expect is that if you are unwilling to do so, is that someone is going to try to goad you into it by insulting you, calling you names, in hopes of goading you.
Now most of the time this will just be an individual, a “keyboard commander” if you like, and quite probably a young one. Or it may be a bona fide hostile entity.
The important thing to remember is, it doesn’t matter. Once you post your cell phone number on the internet, it is not only there for the nice friendly lady with the blue curcuma blooms to see, it is also there for everybody else.
So don’t post your cell phone number, or pictures of your family, or your real name, or any other personal details of your life, no matter what causes you champion or accomplishments you may have, or hope to have. 🙂
And yet we have no answer to the simple question:
Has Ductape Fatwa risked his own freedom by refusing to pay taxes to support the illegal occupation of Iraq? After all, he is demanding that American and British troops risk imprisonment by refusing orders.
Instead, we are subjected to this artless attempt at changing the subject into “Internet security for young people.”
This ruse wouldn’t fool a six year old child–not even a rather dim one.
If one is going to really be brave, one should openly oppose the Bush/Cheney/Blair war regime and refuse to pay taxes–and to write to the revenue office and inform them that you are not paying your taxes and that you dare them to arrest you. It’s called “civil disobedience” and it’s a hard row to hoe, but brave souls may try it.
Cowards, on the other hand, blather on about how other people–soldiers, for example–should risk life and freedom whilst risking absolutely nothing themselves.
Oh, and in regards to your “many enemies” who apparently wish you ill–figments of the imagination don’t count. I suppose next you’ll tell us black-clad ninja assassins are tailing your every move. No one here is fooled by your transparent attempts to inflate your own self-importance.
an inaccuracy. I have made no demands that the crusaders do anything of the kind.
I have pointed out that there are some individuals who have made the same choice I would hope that the gunmen who are ordered to murder your family will make.
Those men and women made their choices based on their own moral values, as do those who choose instead to commit atrocities.
I cannot demand that you or anyone else change your values, or think of Iraqis, or Afghans, or Palestinians, or poor African Americans in New Orleans, as human beings.
What I can do is tell you that choices have consequences, and point out that when a society reaches the point where men and women who refuse to torture and kill innocents are considered heroes, as opposed to just good and decent people, that no person in that society is safe – not only from the torture victims in far flung lands, but from each other.
Blah blah blah.
You say you haven’t demanded that the troops refuse orders. Yet you threaten them with prison if they DO follow orders:
“They are not helpless moral cripples. They deserve the right to take responsibility for their actions, which, if it were up to me, would include fair and open trials and a clean and habitable cell in which to await same, right to counsel, and humane treatment both before the trial and after it. “–Ductape Fatwa
In order to avoid such a fate, the troops would have to do what, then? What are the troops supposed to do, if not refuse to follow orders? The troops are order to shoot at Iraqis and that’s what they do. What would you have them do? Of course you know nothing of combat, have never experienced it (and in fact it seems you are very much concerned about insulating yourself against all danger).
So we are left with this:
Answer the question: What have YOU done to stop the illegal occupation of Iraq? You go on and on about the moral obligations of the soldiers and so forth, yet you apparently have no responsibility other than to hector and lecture others.
You keep dancing and dancing around without answering a very simple question. The reason for your evasiveness and attempts at distraction and deflection are quite obvious: you haven’t got an answer that doesn’t make you look like a flaming hypocrite.
While they await trial, and if convicted and sentenced, throughout the length of that sentence.
I have already addressed your other points, some several times.
And I note that you prefer not to answer my question regarding what you would have gunmen do, when they are ordered to murder your loved ones.
That is understandable. I will not pressure you to answer me. You have enough on your plate answering yourself.
Here’s the answer:
When someone is ordered to participate in something which they find morally objectionable, they should not do it. They have an absolute moral imperative NOT to do it. They must suffer the consequence of their disobedience, however, else it is meaningless. That is the whole point of civil disobedience as practised by Thoreau, Gandhi, King, and others.
However, you voluntarily pay taxes which buy the guns and the bullets for the gun. Yet you will not stop paying taxes because you don’t want to risk imprisonment.
That makes you a coward and a hypocrite, and it is now plain for one and all to see.
“They must suffer the consequence of their disobedience, however, else it is meaningless”
So in your world doing the right thing requires “suffer[ing] the consequence”? No wonder American troops continue on torturing, killing and generally abusing women and children . . . there’s no “consequence” for that, but they “must suffer the consequence” for refusing to be war criminals.
Oh, wait, “volunteer army” . . . they volunteered to be war criminals, so if they don’t do it they “must suffer” . . . (or lose their veterans benefits, perish the thought).
You deliberately twisted what I wrote, or else completely misunderstood what I wrote.
In either case: It is a basic principle of civil disobedience, set forth by Henry David Thoreau and practised by Gandhi and King (among others), that civil disobedience of unjust laws must be done publicly and those breaking the laws should not only expect but welcome punishment for breaking those laws.
Why is it necessary for them to be punished for breaking the unjust laws? Because it is only in that way that others can see that the punishment is unjust–and therefore realise that the law from which the punishment came is unjust.
As Thoreau put it: ” Thus the state never intentionally confronts a man’s sense, intellectual or moral, but only his body, his senses. It is not armed with superior with or honesty, but with superior physical strength. I was not born to be forced. I will breathe after my own fashion. Let us see who is the strongest. What force has a multitude? They only can force me who obey a higher law than I. They force me to become like themselves. I do not hear of men being forced to live this way or that by masses of men. What sort of life were that to live? When I meet a government which says to me, “Your money our your life,” why should I be in haste to give it my money? It may be in a great strait, and not know what to do: I cannot help that. It must help itself; do as I do.”
And then there is THIS, which really ought to be our guide in discussing how to bring about change in modern-day America:
So yes, Dr. King did require as one of his six principles (and they are inseparable) “a willingness to accept suffering for the cause, if necessary…”.
You know Shadow thief, you seem to make it a point constatntly that you were in the armed forces. I don’t personally care. I am supposed to be beholden to you because you risked your life etc.
I don’t believe that. I think it’s bullshit. You were in the army, they told you how brave you were and you apparently believed them. All I know is you were in the army.
I don’t like the Army. I think it’s a place where people get used and in exchange they are told that they are men. You don’t become a man or …woman by going into the army. They don’t make you a man. A man being someone who allows a government to control their lives for several years. You merely become a subject.
Don’t talk to me about being a man or anyone else. Or about how much you sacraficed or risked. I don’t know that you know the meaning of the word. If you did you wouldn’t keep harping on it.
I think you are the same person who related that the American Army is far more brutal than the british army. Is that correct?
Mr. Piddy:
I only mention my soldiering when it is germane to the conversation. In fact, I posted on BooTrib for many months before my experience did become relevant. Rather than “constantly” mentioning it, I rarely mention it.
As far as how brave I am, I am not particularly so. I did my soldier’s duty in the first Gulf War and that’s the end of it.
I agree that doing violence does not make you a man; in fact, it takes away a bit of your soul and dehumanises you. That’s why I hate war on principle and wish to avoid it if at all possible. That’s why I curse the names of the men who dragged America and Britain into war yet again, and the people in those democracies who have allowed it to happen and to continue.
In fact, the greatest hero of my life is a man of peace and nonviolence: Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. If only he or someone of his moral stature and vision were with us today, to guide the people into a different and better way of finding justice and reconciliation. We may never see his like in our lifetimes again, and if we do, we should all consider ourselves most blessed.
As far as the behaviour of the two armies (American v. British), I only observed the two militaries in combat in Gulf War I. At that time, I noticed that Americans have different training than Brits–we are taught to restrain fire, even if it means taking higher casualties, whilst the Americans are trained to basically shoot everything that moves to keep down casualty rates. American soldiers could be trained to be better peacekeepers, which is the role they are being asked to play time and again, but that would require a different President than the one the US has now. In addition, I believe that the recent troubles in Basra, which has been under British control, demonstrate that even the relatively restrained methods of the British Army are not effective in controlling a people (the Iraqis) who do not wish to be colonial subjects. Simply put, the Iraqis don’t want a boot on their throats, whether it is an American boot pressing down hard on them or a British boot pressing lightly. The US and the UK have NO BUSINESS WHATSOEVER in Iraq, never should have gone in, and must now be withdrawn (which is a subject for a lengthy discussion regarding the where and how).
So long as you and I are stating our dislikes, I don’t care for civilians, like you, who are running about free and easy screaming about the moral duty of the troops to refuse immoral and illegal orders. Why aren’t you in prison for refusing to pay taxes, or for blocking the transport of military goods and personnel at an American port? You ask the soldiers to do so much, and yet you do so little. You post your complaints on a blog, yet take no action that would risk your freedom or safety.
for the reason you just laid out there.
Good on her. The more I hear about that lady, the more I like her. She not only “talks the talk”, she “walks the walk”. If only Stu Piddy and Ductape Fatwa would do something besides post on a blog.
And good on you, MilitaryTracy. I know I’ve said it before, but it needs saying again.
Thanks, Stu Piddy.
Very few Americans, even among those on ‘the left’, want to hear what you’re saying.
Tough. Reality can be a bitch.
And really there is a kind of desperation in the air over there t be sure. If they can “win” they can all come home, and they have all done their best and the insurgency lives on. People can only take so much high stress until the system begins to shut down, the outcome of daily decisions becomes less and less important as one day blends into the next. It must be shocking the first time an innocent child is hurt and or killed, the third one…….wow this sucks, in my 11th month in Iraq and roadside bombs and car bombs and snipers I suppose the 10th dead kid is just another day in hell and so what. Bush and Cheney did this to these people and probably we won’t ever be able to fix them either because when you are 50 years old (if you make that long before you do it) and throwing your granddaughter in the air, when everybody goes home that day you get a gun and blow your own brains out because you can’t live with yourself any longer……just a child murderer hiding out in the husk of a body.
Depending on your belief system, there is enormous disconnect between the reality of what is actually happening in various places, and big media reporting of the event. That is why blogs are so important.
I can tell you CNN has not been to the River Center in BATon Rouge where hundreds of displaced New Orleanians have not been invited back in, because they are poor, perhaps lived in government subsudized housing, and have no transportation. They are between worlds.
Here is an excerpt from that book on troop atrocities, from Middle East Online:
In his book, ” Kill! Kill! Kill!”, he says he and other Marines in his unit
killed dozens of unarmed Iraqi civilians because of an exaggerated sense of
threat, and that they often experienced sexual-type thrills doing so.
The book was being released first in France — and in French — because, he
said, “I didn’t find an American publisher.”
The French journalist who helped him write the work, Natasha Saulnier, said
she believed the US companies were reluctant to touch the book because its
“controversial” nature threatened commercial interests and the US public’s
image of their fighting forces.
Massey, who left Iraq in May 2003 shortly after US President George W. Bush
declared “mission accomplished”, wrote the book after being discharged from
the Marines with a diagnosed case of post-trauma stress syndrome.
“It’s been a healing experience,” he said. “It’s allowed me to close a lot
of chapters and answer a lot of questions.”
In the book, he claims he and a group of Marines were near Baghdad when a
group of 10 Iraqi men started to protest near them, yelling out anti-US
slogans. At the sound of a gunshot, he said he and his men fired on the
group, killing most of them, only to find out later that none of them was
armed.
He also recounts several episodes at checkpoints where civilian cars failed
to stop and their unarmed occupants were shot to death.
At one point he says he told an officer that the US military campaign
“resembles a genocide” and that “our only objective in Iraq is petrol and
profits.”
Massey, a chubby-cheeked man with short hair and glasses, said in the lobby
bar of a Paris hotel that the casual violence exhibited by him and his men
was the deliberate result of combat training approved by the very highest US
authorities.
Can you tell us more about the River Center? I didn’t really understand what you wrote. What’s going on with 1,000,000 displaced people. There is NOTHING in the news.
When you say they are turned away what do you mean.
I am still working on that other thing by the way. It’s a little scary.
I’ll send an email. It’s where 5000 New Orleanians were housed initially. Now there are about 900+. I’m going there now to bring three people back to New Orleans, to the Lafitte Housing complex.
who are serving in that rat shit hole of a war and I find much of what you said about them offensive and demeaning.
I know about being at the end of your rope with this administration and its illegal war. I am abhorred by their disregard for the lives of not only the innocents in their aggressive violence, but for the American soldiers and marines whom they have ordered into harms way.
My cousins are not monsterous murderers, they are marines doing the best they can do to survive and minimizing the damage to innocent people as much as they can. They mother taught them well that all human beings are valuable, she did not want both of her sons to be marines, but they were inseparable.
I do not nor have I ever supported this war or Clintons excursion into the Baltic, Rayguns blast into Grenada, Bush I’s Panama invasion. I am not a warmonger, most of the people I know are not warmongers and I refuse to be labeled as such.
I have fought against the insanity of my country off and on for more than 35 years. I vote for those who support the very ideas that I believe in, I talk to those who are diametrically opposed to what I believe in, to try and sway some of their arguments.
America is in the hands of some very awful and evil people and unfortunately there is still a small minority of American’s who believe that they have done the right thing.
I am not a bad human being because I am an American. I am not going to stop believing that the vast majority of American troops are honorable and diligently try to mitigate the destruction they have been ordered to perpetutate upon the Iraqi people.
When it comes time for judgement, I believe that the leaders and those responsible for the atrocities will be held accountable.
I ask that you stop blaming those who are actively striving to stop this insanity and change the mindset of our nation.
Until such time as we can change the leadership of our country, we will be unable to change the leadership of our military and they will be lead by spineless syncophants to the current leadership. Meyers is a spineless worm who would eat GW’s feces if ordered to do so by GW or Cheney.
Harms way. Drop the rhetoric.
They are not being put in harms way. They are the HARM. I blame all of us. This is our culture. You can blame all the people who lived before us as well in this nation. This is a technologically advanced nation but it is primitive at the same time.
The soldiers are being trained to act as morons. Look at the Leadership. Look at Geofferey Miller. These people are base, craven. That’s what they teach the soldiers to be. Soldiers are people who get used. They are killers. That’s what they are trained to do.
Duranta posted something very interesting. About an author a marine who tried to publish a book about atrocities that he was involved in. And the SEXUAL pleasure experienced derived from killing.
Now that’s really something. If a soldier feels that when shooting and not fear, it’s time to desert before it;s too late.
War brings out tendencies in people that would not ordinarily come out and that we ordinarily never have to deal with. What happens when a soldier experiences sexual pleasure from killing comes back to the United States? A pandoras box has been opened, that never had to be opened.
I guess a lot of killers experience sexual pleasure, witness this BTK fellow. Absolutely normal on one side and absolutely murderous on the other.
suffer PTSD, be poisoned by depleted uranium or agent orange, loss of life or limb, or the gaping hole in your heart when someone you love dies.
Have you never believed a lie? Had to do something you felt was wrong?
it is obvious that you have never been in a situation where you life was threatened.
The asshats in our government have placed our troops in an untenable situation that has deteriorated into a kill or be killed tit for tat cat and mouse game of lets destroy whomever gets in our way.
duct asked what would I do if Iranians were killing my people the same thing that the Iraqis are doing to Americans.
We need to get our troops our of Iraq today, not six months, not a year, today.
They are destroying our troops. They being the asshats who currently run our country.
Your overgeneralization that every soldier that comes back from Iraq will be a stone cold killer just does not pan out when you look at the more than 11 million people who have served in combat situations over the last 60 years.
I want our people home and I continue to use every democratic means that are available to me to make this happen and end this illegal and immoral war that has little to do with freedom or democracy.
Our asshat president wants to turn our democracy into a theocratic/fascistic dictatorship and if we don’t step up to the plate in this next election, he just might succeed.
How many people have you registered to vote in the last 15 months. I have registered more than 55 in my small county, most of them have chosen Democrat or Independent as their party of choice.
Have you run for an office or been involved in your local politics, do you speak out at city or county meetings.
We don’t live in a vacuum on the blogs, we live in a living breathing democratic republic that requires us all to step up to the fucking plate and make a difference.
I won’t vote for anyone who does not believe in my core beliefs.
Personal privacy is guaranteed by the 9th Amendment
The patriot act is unconstitutional
This war must end now
Human rights is the most important issue of our day
Everyday I walk out the door. I have to be careful where I live. And where I have lived. So that’s not true. I have, at times fellt threatened on a daily basis. Now maybe that’s a personal problem. But when you have been serously attacked, at least for me, its always there in your mind. So that’s my Quien es mas Macho.
This is really an argument by some people who are associated with the miliitary about who is more macho. It’s got nothing to do with the stuff going on in Iraq.
And that’s how the military gets people. People who don’t feel they have a lot of life experience join the military and then they get to see all this SHIT and they think they know something about the world. That’s Bullshit. That just what they want you to think. Then you come out with this exaggerated view of the world being a dangerous place.
The Military makes the world more dangerous than it really is. People in the world are much more inclined to get along. But Militaries with their need to reaffrim how dangerous the world is, simply fufill their paranoia by attacking things that are harmless and that become potentially harmful after being attacked.
I have no respect for the military. I think it’s institutionalized madness. And I am not impressed with their phony machoism and the military made me a man bullshit. IT’s a lie. The military subjugates it does not elevate
Stu Piddy:
Your taxes are paying for the occupation of Iraq. Of course, you can “choose” to not pay your taxes–in which case the government will come ’round and throw you into prison, possibly for many years.
What’s that? You don’t want to go to prison? So you “choose” to pay taxes that support the illegal, immoral occupation of Iraq because the only alternative is prison?
Welcome to the world of the American and British soldiers. If they refuse orders to fight, they will be court-martialed and serve many years in prison. They will lose their rank, their pay, and possibly their pensions.
You demand that the soldiers pay a very high price to satisfy you, yet you are unwilling to pay that price yourself.
That is the definition of hypocrisy.
This isn’t helpful to Democrats AT ALL. There is a way to get this message across without generalizing ALL military personnel and without giving the enemy (Republicans) ammunition to slime Dems regarding our relationship with the military. Besides that, the rank and file takes orders from officers, who are usually repubs, and the rank and file should be our top priority audience, along with high-level military intelligence.
Think of the success of the Ukrainian Orange Revolution; it would have failed w/o military intel assistance.
I would say “To Hell With Cheney’s Imperialism: Troops Kill Civilians Again”
I’m sorry, maybe I’m confused, but this seems to me to be a discussion of moral culpability, not political strategy. Sometimes we discuss the former on its own terms without regard to the latter. “All strategy all the time” is the mantra over at the big orange site.
Good point on my crassness regarding discussing how this topic affects Democrats… it was superficial and greedy on my part… but nothing can be done to help dying soldiers while Dems are in the minority. nothing.
you and the person below are right in that congressional Dems have done nothing, nada, regarding leaving Iraq. why? because Dems would be crucified for a generation or outright go belly up as a political party if iraq turned into an islamist state like afghanistan under the taliban.
there are no easy answers, especially in a classic quagmire like iraq.
i just want we bloggers to get the critical point across of the fact that US military being in iraq is fuelling the insurgency, and not defeating islamist infiltration into iraq. stopping that should be the top priority, not keeping Sunnis from doing whatever it is they are going to do to the kurds and shia if/when we leave… it’s going to happen either way. they question is: how many US deaths will there be before we leave for the same end result?
i just want we blogger to make these important points, and your are important points, in a way that leaves as little flank as possible to attack by treasonous repubs. i’m gonna copy/ paste some of this to the other person as well for time’s sake.
It’s easy to blame other people all the time. But we all live here, we are all part of this. German people were, for a time very self concious about themselves after WW!!. It is now our turn.
It’s not helpful you say….NOT ONE PROMINENT DEMOCRAT HAS CALLED FOR AN IMMEDIATE END AND CESSATION OF THIS WAR.
NOT ONE PROMINENT DEMOCRAT HAS CONDEMED BUSH AND CHENEY FOR ALL THE LIES THEY HAVE TOLD AND DEMANDED THEY RESIGN.
EVEN WILL ALL THE OTHER SCANDALS. SO YOU PRECIOUS DEMOCRATS HAVE DONE NOTHING.
DEMOCRATS ARE CONTRIBUTORS TO THE WAR AND CLINTON AND BIDEN ARE CALLING FOR A BETTER RUN WAR -NOT AN END TO THE WAR!
NOT ONE PROMINENT DEMOCRAT HAS CALLED FOR AN IMMEDIATE END AND CESSATION OF THIS WAR.
NOT ONE PROMINENT DEMOCRAT HAS CONDEMED BUSH AND CHENEY FOR ALL THE LIES THEY HAVE TOLD AND DEMANDED THEY RESIGN.
EVEN WILL ALL THE OTHER SCANDALS. SO YOU PRECIOUS DEMOCRATS HAVE DONE NOTHING.
I call bullshit and the fact that you typed in in ALL CAPS doesn’t make it true either.
Seriously, that kind of generalizing adds nothing to a conversation.
Well who has? How is it generalizing. Feingold is the only one and he’s not yet prominent, it seems to me. All others want to continue the war. Do a better job. That’s a fact not a generalization. I thought it was common knowledge. If I’m wrong, fine tell me who is for immediate withdrawal? Not even Feingold is for that.
congressional Dems have done nothing, nada, regarding leaving Iraq. you are right about that. hands down.
why do they do it? because Dems would be crucified for a generation or outright go belly up as a political party if iraq turned into an islamist state like afghanistan under the taliban.
there are no easy answers, especially in a classic quagmire like iraq.
i just want we bloggers to get the critical point across of the fact that US military being in iraq is fuelling the insurgency, and not defeating islamist infiltration into iraq.
stopping that should be the top priority, not keeping Sunnis from doing whatever it is they are going to do to the kurds and shia if/when we leave… it’s going to happen either way. they question is: how many US deaths will there be before we leave for the same end result?
i just want we bloggers to make these important points, and your are important points, in a way that leaves as little flank as possible to attack by treasonous repubs.
This was one of those diaries that I had to read, think about, read again. It highlights so well the view of so many, too many Americans-that Iraqis are less than human and their deaths are meaningless. I think the problem is so much deeper than the soldiers-it’s an ugliness in our culture and a dead spot in our souls and I don’t know how to fix it. I don’t know if it’s even possible but I do know that people can fix themselves, heal, there is a moment of epiphany that suddenly shifts your view and you are filled with grief, or anger, or shame. Or all three. I have no idea how to bring people to that point, especially on the large scale where it would make a difference.
While I was thinking about this I browsed over to dk which had a fortunate link-synchronicity?
http://ftssoldier.blogspot.com/
The page is called Fight to Survive-and it’s well worth a read.
Sorry for the length of this comment as well as it rambling nature.
So, you saw on the news, and now all US soldiers are “dumb trained morons.” Do you watch the TV show “COPS” and think all blacks are dumb criminals? You are making the same sweeping generalization about an entire group of people based on what you saw on a television show.
And that is prejudice.
“Many soldiers like killing people”
What is you scholarly research that you must have used to come to that sweeping argument?
Since this type of diary seems to pop up every few months, I will just paste my response to the last diary.
a ten million fours for that response.
I despise this administration and its warmongering chickenhawk asshats who desire only to destroy the US as a Democratic republic and put in its place a banana republic theocracy.
Thank you for your eloquence in this debate.
I am not impressed that you served in the army.
You are simply mixed up.
I respect your points. But I don’t think the diary is without merit.
Stu raised a very tough issue in this diary. I don’t think I can fairly summarize all of what he raised. I certainly wouldn’t have raised it in this way, and might disagree with some things he said. But it was not a bad issue to raise, IMHO.
The blanket notion in America that we need to stand and salute all troops under the flag-draped statement of “you must support the troops” is a meme that should indeed be challenged. It reminds me of the Zombies who stop and stare at Fireworks in the sky in the recent Night of the Living Dead movie. That blind faith in our troops is a form of anesthesia that lets many Americans sit home and forget that our country is in fact murdering people. So I’m glad he raised the point.
Also, as a non-combat veteran, I’ll take issue with the idea that only civilians would dare to challenge the war as Stu has. There are lots of Veterans for peace, who might share Stu’s ideas I think. And I myself may share some of his ideas.
Last, as I think supersoling said above — and perhaps others, U.S. soldiers are obligated and expected to follow the laws of war. Not to kill civilians. They may fail. But we, as an American community, cannot condone that failure behind patriotism. To condone such lawlessness is to accept we are a society of brutes.
You raise valid points, and I think you more clearly stated what Stu Piddy was pointing out.
My argument is the broad brush painting of ALL troops as baby killers or torturers because of the actions of a few. Hold the individuals accountable. Hold the leaders accountable. Where tactics, like the one Stu mentions in his diary, are flawed, find new tactics. That is what the after-action reports are for. Question the platoon leader and find out why he/she used those tactics. Is this standard procedure, or is it thinking on the fly. My “opinion” is that this was the desire to get the bad guy as quick as possible and leave before the unit was surrounded by a group of insurgents.
My support is not the “blind faith” but the desire that the best way we can support our troops is to bring them home NOW! To care for their wounds, both physically and mentally. To care for the next of kin. We can support the troops by only using them for national defense, not some ego driven crusade by an adolescent president.
Someone mentioned german troops. Were all german troops in WWII nazis? Were all german troops members of the SS? Was the front line german private captured at Normandy collectively guilty for the crimes committed at Buchenwald?
My worry is that this broad brush spin brings a return to the era where veterans are spit on by the populace and forgotten by the administration. Which is why I get worked up every time a broad brush diary gets posted. Should the questions Stu raises be brought up. Absolutely. Let’s just do it in an objective manner, rather than an emotional one. More gets accomplished that way.
What do you think armies do in War? They kill that is their purpose their function. After having been trained to kill, they are unleashed. Now that doesn’t mean every soldier responds the same way. But a broad stroke is necessary. The invasion of Iraq is a broad stroke. It is not selective.
It is our culture and it’s history that brought us into Iraq, not the work of indiviuals. History combined with the present (if it’spossiible to say that) are the ingredients of the future.
This nation has a long hisotry of violence. Of de-humanization of people. It continues on in Iraq. That’s why we can say we are all to blame. We are all part of this culture and escaping your culture, although possible is so rare that it can’t be considered significant in regard to this issue.
Veterans should never be spit on. You might as well spit on yourself. We are all a part of this invasion. This is a collective action.
Our government, the trooops who are in Iraq are representing you and me. When that gets really uncomfortable, maybe we will all do something collectively to stop it. That’s another side of American Culture.
Well. I think you said one thing that you, I and Stu can all agree on. The need to bring them home now. I hope we all work toward that end. In our individual ways. And make it a reality.
Where, then, are the “good” American soldiers? Capt. Carabine was not alone when he ordered fire on civilians . . . his tank crew was there, and complied. And they were not alone, there were other American forces there who no doubt saw what happened. Why did his tank crew comply with an illegal order? Why did the other “good” troops not arrest Capt. Carabine for war crimes? Why do we see murder on television but ignored by the “good” troops on the scene?
Inaction is complicity . . . show me the “good” ones who acted to prevent, or punish, the crime . . . or who even spoke up afterward to condemn it . . .
Great question Deward!
I wish I knew the answer, but I didn’t see CNN and don’t know the circumstances surrounding the incident beyond this diary.
But what if… Lindie England and all the others at Abu Ghraib said “No Sir, that is an illegal order and I refuse to comply.” Technically, that can be interpreted as mutiny, so there are ramifications to stating that, especially if you are in the wrong and the orders are legal.
I’ve been out for a long time, so I don’t remember the specifics of when you can use those words, or if you must still follow the orders (as an enlisted), and then file a report. I recall the best way to avoid the ramifications is to ask for the orders in writing and signed.
If not, have a witness to note, and I mean state “I am following orders that I believe may be illegal. I will file a report stating that I am following these orders under protest. You are a witness to that. Do you understand and agree that I made this statement” in the presence of the officer issuing the order.
from school, after seeing a film on the Holocaust, and asked her grandfather, “how could one human being do such a thing to another?”
It did not, her grandfather explained, happen overnight. That moment when the gunman stands before the toddler, and is ordered to shoot her, that moment when he makes his choice, the choice that will, for as long as he lives, define him as man or beast, is not his first crossroads.
In order to be there, standing before the toddler, gun in hand and commander at ear, he had to make many other choices.
He had to consciously choose to experience that moment, consciously choose to postpone his choice.
Remember that at one time, he was at home, in his room. He walked out the door, and began his journey. He decided to whom he would listen. He decided whom he would follow, whom he would obey.
He decided to accept the price offered for his conscience. He decided to sign papers to that effect.
He decided to put on the uniform, he decided to get into a vehicle. He decided to let the vehicle take him to the killing field.
He got off the vehicle. He heard the screams.
And he kept on making decisions, and one day, his decision was whether or not to shoot the little girl.
Some of the things you say are simply profound. Have you ever thought of trying to garner a moment of the Chimp’s time? This thread is disturbing, but I think human, and I almost believe, in my very naive way, that if someone in power could read it — what Americans, and Canadians, and whatever the hell you are Ductape, think — I believe maybe it could change someone’s decision making process.
process, and maybe as a result, being part of a life being saved, is the single and only reason that I have such lean and fat free – and tired – fingers 😀
Fight To Survive
this site is the mouthpiece for a group of soldiers who are fighting in a war they oppose for a president they didn’t elect while the petrochemical complex turns the blood of their fallen comrades into oil
All The King’s Horses
These are the chornicles of one life in a troubled land in search of answers. They are the glimpse through the many shattered shards of The Great Fall. They are the stories from the battlefront of Betrayal. They are about the brave, the bold, and the innocent. These are the stories of All The King’s Horses.
A Soldier’s Thoughts
Just a US soldier in Tikrit Iraq and his thoughts on life, family, the stop loss, and other insights.
…
I urge you, Stu Piddy, to see the people who died for lies
This is from cotterpersons suggested blog and above comment: It’s a soldier in Iraq:
<blackquote>The country lied to me, and my life is in deficit by six percent because of it. My rage and hatred are reaching a point where I sometimes feel like expressing both violently. I would not want to be on the battlefield with someone like me; but everywhere I look, I see people going through the same emotions. We are the army of The Betrayed; soldiers lied to and abused. Soldiers who will spend the rest of our lives wondering what we did to deserve our country’s betrayal. That so few people in America seem to care about us adds insult to injury. Wake up, America; right this horrible wrong before more of your youth are lied to on their way to The Slaughterhouse.,</blaockquote>
You need a lawyer to join the army these days, with all the fine print.
It’s like a dealing with crooked businessman. Slavery…a slave pays his “debt” and gets ready to leave when the owner says, yes you paid your debt, but not the interest and then there’s also your room and board bill.
and they have to live with it forever, if they survive.
has to live with them, or nextdoor to them. All this will come home and live with us now whether we cared about them or not!
I don’t watch CNN but I do watch BBC and I believe I saw the same footage. According to the BBC what happened is that the troops received fire from a house, they fired on it and a neighbouring house was badly damaged. That’s where the civilians were. You treat this as if it were obviously a crime, it may be, but it almost certainly isn’t in the ‘beyond reasonable doubt’ sense. The house that was attacked was a legitimate target. The question is whether the US actions were proportionate considering both the threat and the possible proximity of civilians. Quite possibly they were not, but beyond a reasonable doubt? Note that the death of civilians even when reasonably forseeable is not in and of itself proof of any crime. The laws of war are much more lax than those applicable in a normal environment.
BTW, am I really the only person here who finds the use of the vocabulary of the radical religious right (‘crusaders’) objectionable?
Well there are certainly those within the military who believe as Bush does that this is a crusade, and I understand the use of the term, but again, it serves to paint all soldiers as crusaders by association.
and who the small, shrill, non helpful, radical and infinitesimal minority of Americans who are blessedly inflexible in their opposition to torture, mass slaughter, and crimes against humanity in general can support.
You are my hero today! Leave it to you! So everybody who is disgusted by all of this and disgusted with your troops and refuse to own your portion of any of this…….where were you and where are you when and as these people go to trial. I do know Monica Benderman. I shared my support and I so hoped that the public outrage would be so huge that Kevin would be told to go home and never darken the military’s door again but he sits in fucking prison now. Everybody who hates what they are seeing happen in Iraq, if you don’t support these people, if you don’t stand outside during their trials and protest, if you are not arrested for public disobedience while they haul these people off in handcuffs……..THEN FUCK YOU!! PUT YOUR MONEY AND YOUR ASS WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS! Believe me, all these people on this list are just waiting for SOMEBODY to show up and fight them in the same fashion that they promised to fight for you!!!!
link here and for those who would prefer to send money orders:
c/o Kevin and Monica Benderman, P.O. Box 2322, Hinesville, GA 31310.
The Tom Joad link has links to those who have links, can you imagine if every time someone started to send money to a rich politician, they stopped right before filling in the “pay to” and put one of these folks instead?
Many have families, some are in prison, or about to be, and I wish that there would be 300,000 people outside the courthouse every time one of them goes in.
Yet you remain at liberty.
How easy it is to glorify prison when one is not behind bars.
But Mark you have to think about the context as it was presented. Something is strange here. Note there was a straight on shot of the Iraquis coming out of the house bleeding and limping. The camera shots, from the side and front had been set up before the tank round went in. The camera was exposed directly to the people coming out of the house.
Then there was the mention of the Captain by Eccelston and couple of times. That makes me think, she mentioned his name so it could be heard on TV. He let her set up the shot before the tank round went in. She said she wanted to make sure she had a good shot when the Captain said he was going to put a round into the house………
Also the piece never mentioned if they got the sniper or where the sniper was shooting from or what happened to the Iraqis baby lying limp in the womens arms. Men came out of that house. If they had guns they could have shot and killed the camera person(s)
Why would they set up shots from the siide and from the front (which would expose them to gunfire from the so called insurgents) before the tank shell was shot? Why would they do this if there were real danger.
SOMETHING IS VERY FUNNY ABOUT THIS CNN PIECE, I WISH I KNEW HOT TO INVESTIGATE IT. It appears as though the Captain was doing the CNN reporter a favor by allowing her to set up her camera shots before the tank round went in. Then why and how did they get the shot of people running from their home, bleeding and dead. Straight on shot, not from the side. If they had guns they could have easily killed the camera person
The initial invasion was illegal. The counter insurgency is a perfectly legal operation under international law courtesy of subsequent UN Security Council resolutions. The counter insurgency war has also been characterized by numerous war crimes, specifically the systematic abuse and torture of prisoners, but that is an indictment of the individuals involved and of the leadership which encourages and enables those crimes, not of the mass of individual soldiers.
but you two can kiss my fucking ass, I am not a fucking criminal because asshats have taken over my fucking country.
My friends and family who have served in the military, including myself are not war criminals because we served.
So actually what I am telling you and duct is to fuck yourselves, if you hate americans and america so much then get the fuck out and join some country that wants to destroy us. This constant hacking at my country is counterproductive and quite frankly it pisses me off that I am lumped into that pile of shit called the Adminstration. I have fought against these fuckers in every possible way I have had available to me.
Duct you just hack and slash and tell us what fuckers our culture and country is, I don’t see you joining the fucking insurgency to stop these fucks in office from destroying Iraq.
I don’t have a lot of money but I donate to every political action that I see that wants to end our Imperial presidency and its grand global imperialist war.
Stu, until you have lived in a combat zone, or had to treat people who have been placed in harms way and seen the horror, fear and despair, I suggest you spend some volunteer time at a VA hospital and ask those who were wounded why they wanted to become war criminals and destroy innocent lives.
This diary is overreaching and sterotypical bullshit that only further incites those who just want more of a reason to hate me and my country.
so to those of you who really want to hate me go ahead, just because I am an american. My country will change, of that I am sure. More and more of my fellow countrymen and women are realizing that our nation is being destroyed from the inside out by a group of fuckwits who only care about death and destruction to create profit.
Personally this diary made me physically ill, as my family and friends who are in Iraq and not fucking criminals.
I almost didn’t post on this. Could see that it was going to end up controversial. Saw above how something I said may have offended/made Catnip feel bad/uncomfortable.
As I said to her — I didn’t mean it as a personal indictment.
Reading your comment, I feel the same. We’ve got the personal — like your kin in a war zone. And the societal — like our country (or administration, or however you want to view the government) doing something many would agree is wrong.
I can completely understand your reaction to the personal. My heart goes out to you, and soldiers who are over there fucked, and those in this country who are trying to fight and feel powerless.
But on the societal level, I am feeling the country is so wrong. So needs to change. And I can’t avoid my share of responsiblity for that, eventhough I’ve opposed the war since the first banging of the drums.
Just wanted to say something. Because I think a lot of your comments.
Time is going to heal this, maybe. Time and peace. Hope your kin are safe then. And sound. And our country is a better place.
I am trying to keep out personal but when I know that family and friends are in danger because of those asshats and then someone tells me that I am also a fucking criminal because we are there, that is just to fucking much for me.
I live in a democratic republic and until I and others like me can sway the electorate to deem these asshats are irresponsible and unethical, I will fight them with every legal means that is available to me.
I didn’t want to post on this thread. I really, really didn’t. But you tore into my heart and I just wanted you to know that I’m here with you, brother. (I actually wrote quite a lengthy comment, then thought better of posting it. I need to enjoy what’s left of this beautiful fall evening, and there are far more productive ways to invest my political capital :^).
I wish you serenity.
Good night. . .
Would you consider yourself an insurgent if a horde of hostile gunmen arrived on your street and proceeded to haul your family off to be tortured if they objected to it?
It is hard for many Americans to conceive, but people in Iraq, in Afghanistan, Palestine, every country believe themselves to be just as human as you, and believe that their countries do not belong to the US just as strongly as you believe the US, and by extension, you and your family, and whatever worldly goods you may possess, are not the property of say, Malaysia or Iran or Libya.
It is an unbridgeable gap. No matter how many countries US invades, no matter how many families are slaughtered, maimed, tortured, the US view is simply not going to catch on.
Regarding your question to me, it is prudent to keep online and offline personas and activities separate and unconnectible.
If you are fortunate enough to have access to elderly Germans, they can offer a very valuable perspective on the subject of complicity with atrocities.
the most magnificent and glorious arbitrator of what america is and what americans are, after all you have in the time I have spent reading your comments and diaries, deemed that America and Americans are nothing more than wholesale murders who care not a whit for anyone or anything other than their own culture and imperialist aims.
That we despise freedom for anyone other than ourselves seems to be your most ardent complaint about us.
Insurgency was the wrong word, those people in Iraq, Palestine and other areas where America and its long time gestapo Israel are in fact fighting to regain their freedom.
It sickens me that you find me and my country so despicable because those of us who have fought to change the way our government works have not acheived a real victory in changing its direction.
I don’t live in a totalitarian dictactorship yet, but if it happens, I will in fact be a part of a freedom fighting insugency to free my country for the oppressors.
I have talked to WWII vets, german, american, british and canadian over the many years I have been alive and I am ever going to allow someone who does not have a clue of who I am and how I live my life to declare that I am culpable for the crimes that my government is inflicting upon the world, when I am fighting with every thing I am to stop this insanity.
What the fuck are you doing besides attacking Americans and America to achieve an end to this insanity.
does not need me or anyone else to be its arbiter.
The policies are not secret, the warlords, and their champions are quite candid, and the implementation is pretty much public.
One thing I can tell you about the American people, and that is that they are not stupid sheeple, incapable of changing their government if at any time and reining in their gunmen if at any time that government and those gunmen are not serving them, and carrying out their wishes.
Or are you suggesting that the American people are helpless victims held in the thrall of murderous brutes and in urgent need of immediate liberation?
I will repeat my own personal policy, and my strong recommendation, that online and offline activities be kept completely separate.
the unfortunate reality of our democratic republic is that more than 45% of our people fail to participate in our elections and that provides for the warring class to improve their odds in gaining the majority in our elected offices.
That the military/industrial complex that IKE warned us about 50 years ago is in fact running our country is without a doubt in my mind.
What would you have us do duct, individually get up one at a time and be slaughtered one at a time trying to violently change our nation or do it the democratic way and regain our nation using our elections and laws to change our culture. I despise that our nation has for a great deal of its history abused its power, yet it has provided some greatness upon the world also.
There is little difference in what I do online and what I do in the real world. I seek to enpower, enlighten and change the world I live in, in every way I know how to facilitate change.
I don’t need to be told that I and my nation are fuckwits, only wanting to conquer the world and install Americans as the rulers of the world. That is not my goal nor the goal of the vast majority of Americans. It is howerver the goal of the PNAC asshats who have manipulated the populace to believe that they will be the salvation of our nation. PNAC is nothing more than warmed Fascism that I will fight against until my death.
So because we have not yet been able to reverse the direction the country is going, you, once again, say we are complicit in war crimes.
This government does not serve me, but like I said upthread, call me when you are ready to storm the WH, and the sacrifice of your blood, mixed with mine on the WH grounds will have exactly zero impact. It is quite convenient that you choose to stand in the shadows of anonimity but step out long enough to judge others.
The number of Americans who object to the slaughter strongly enough to storm the White House is so small that as you say, they would be killed and there would be no effect.
While this in no way diminishes the inestimable value and valor of those few, those rogue carriers of the Miep Gies gene, no matter how splendid and decent those few may be, it does not change the fact that the majority of their countrymen are at best complicit, and more often, in favor of crimes against humanity, and in the last few weeks, the world learned that the crimes do not have to be committed against non-American humanity.
Anyone who is doing anything that could be interpreted as opposing or resisting US policies, if they are serious about it, had damn well better not be posting their details on public message boards, both out of consideration for the administrators of the message board, and the safety of themselves and their loved ones.
I respect your comments greatly. Like them. Laugh at them.
You are kind of scaring me with the whole “protect your identity” thing. Please elaborate, and type really slow while you are doing it. (This is my way of saying, please explain very simply, because, while I am very amused by your sarcasm, I am sometimes too dull to understand — so spell out the specific threat, if you wouldn’t mind).
And, secondly, isn’t the willingness to marry our dissident thoughts with our true identities a way of fighting back? As long as dissidents are forced into the shadows, are we not marginalized? And, isn’t that a first step of bravery, and believing and standing for your own thoughts? (I don’t mean this as a call for you to unmask yourself, honestly, I respect your desire for anonymity, but I wonder if you don’t see that it may be important for dissenters to name themselves?)
And the internet is never the time or the place for making your real life details public, no matter what you are or are not doing.
Why is Ductape Fatwa rolling out his “protect his identity” blather now?
I’ll tell you why: to conceal the fact that, in the real world, he has done nothing, has risked nothing, to end the occupation of Iraq.
Ductape Fatwa demands that soldiers, subject to court-martial, risk imprisonment and endanger the lives of their comrades in the field by refusing the orders of their superior officers. These soldiers who refuse orders would, without a doubt, be sent to prison.
Yet Ductape Fatwa leaves it ambiguous as to his own activities. Imagine if Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., had said, “Well, I’ll oppose the Jim Crow Laws, but in secret, because if my activities were public I might go to jail or even be killed.”
Dr. King and thousands of other brave folk did go to jail and some, like Dr. King, paid for their principles with their lives.
Ductape Fatwa wants to hide behind this “I must protect my identity” to avoid answering one simple question:
HAS DUCTAPE FATWA OPPOSED THE ILLEGAL OCCUPATION OF IRAQ BY REFUSING TO PAY HIS TAXES (THEREBY RISKING PRISON)?
He hides behind his “I’m a secret agent” bullshit to avoid answering the question because, quite honestly, he’s a gutless wonder. And no, that’s not a personal attack, merely a factual observation.
is that DF is not an American citizen and therefore does not have to make such a decision. However, he has always refused to give any details about his nationality or any other personal matters.
By asking him whether he pays taxes you force him to explain something he would rather not divulge.
Oh, what rubbish, Booman. He’d rather not divulge whether or not he pays taxes because it would tell us what his citizenry is? Is this the same chap who demands that soldiers–who haven’t the enviable advantage of hiding from the consequences of their actions–refuse the orders of their commanding officers, even though doing so means a long prison sentence and a dishonourable discharge?
I ordinarily would agree with you that folk are entitled to their privacy. However, this DuctapeFatwa character is demanding extraordinary sacrifice on the part of American and British soldiers, yet refuses to reveal his own actions because he wants to keep his “public” and “blogging” activities separate.
It’s a very simple principle: DO NOT ASK OF OTHERS THAT WHICH YOU ARE NOT PREPARED TO DO.
Since when did he get to make the rules, and dictate how the world works? That’s not how the world does work, you know. Dr. King asked civil rights demonstrators to risk getting their heads broken by the police and/or being imprisoned–but he willingly shared those risks, when he could have said “I’m too important as a leader to risk imprisonment or injury or death.”
Dr. King had the courage of his convictions. DuctapeFatwa doesn’t. He’s just a loudmouth who talks a good game but is afraid to suit up and actually play in the damn thing.
I also challenge anyone here to demonstrate what harm it can be to tell us whether you are an American, a Brit, a Canadian. I can understand not revealing one’s name or address, but stating “I’m an American” doesn’t narrow it down very much, does it? That’s about 285 million at last count. Despite what Ductape would like us all to believe, I rather doubt he’s the object of an international manhunt. He’s just some chap who likes to puff himself up by saying “I can’t say more…my enemies lurk around every corner.” Lord, how can anyone swallow that and not retch?
For the record: I’m a dual American-British citizen. There are actually hundreds of thousands of us.
I’m from Boston. And proud of it.
So we gathered, Joe!
But aren’t you afraid that once the super-secret black ninja assassins have taken out the number one threat to the neo-con imperialist plan, aka DuctapeFatwa–who thus far has evaded them with a cleverness matched only by Wile E. Coyote himself–they’ll turn their sights on you? After all, how many people in Boston are named “Joe”? You’ve practically given them a map to your house!
;o)
at my wedding has dual Brit-American citizenship, although his mother is a swede.
Anyway, DF has always refused these questions. He won’t divulge whether he is male or female, although he has slipped up on that score, whether he is Sunni or Shi’a or something else entirely, whether he is American or not (one presumes not), etc.
He’s not turning you down selectively.
No, and ordinarily I wouldn’t give a toss if someone is male or female, from East Anglia or Alabama.
But in this case, we have someone who is demanding that soldiers of a particular nationality–Americans–risk imprisonment, disgrace, and possibly jeopardise the lives of their comrades by refusing their orders, or else face a war crimes tribunal.
And BooMan, surely you’ve noticed that this Ductape chap goes on and on about how he has many enemies who would like to see him dead or in prison? I mean, come on, you actually marched in Washington on September 24th, even though there is always the possibility that the authorities will arrest anti-war demonstrators or even use violence against them. How can you respect a chap who demands that others put their reputations, liberty, and even lives on the line yet is unwilling to say whether or not he has done so?
On another thread, he made a smarmy comment about going off to watch bad movies and eat pizza. That pretty much sums up his contempt for me, for you, and for all of us–we’re fools if we believe what he has to say. I’m many things, but a fool is NOT one of them.
For the record: I pay my taxes. Why? Because my taxes pay for many government programmes with which I do agree, and because I support the existence of the military, although obviously not the occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan.
is that he is not ducking your question in particular as you are suggesting, but refusing to say that he is not an American, as the likely honest response to your question would require.
If he is an American I would be very surprised. I base this on reading his comments for over a year. So, basically, although I could be wrong, I think your entire line of questioning is irrelevent. If he is not living or working in America or Britian, he doesn’t have to make the choice.
As for his argument: I don’t agree with it as you can probably tell from this thread. But I think it is important for people to experience and confront his point of view, since it is a widespread one.
So Ductape Fatwa either (a) Refuses to make the same hard choice that he demands soldiers make (or else he’ll put them on trial for crimes against humanity) or (b) Never has to make that choice.
Either way, it’s rank hypocrisy and it leaves a foul stench in my nostrils. And I’ve had about all I can stand of his posing as some figure of mystery who is the Number One Enemy of the international neocon conspiracy. He’s no such thing. He’s a chap who posts on some blogs–and he’s easily traceable if it were worth the time and effort to do so (or is Ductape unaware of the cyber capabilities of the NSA?). Let’s not get too self-important, shall we? Blogging until one’s fingers are “slender” means absolutely nothing unless there is action out there, in the real world, and you and I both know it.
Trouble is, Ductape doesn’t seem to realise it, and he seems to wish to convince others that simply declaring the state of reality in a blog makes it happen in the outside world. Political change is wrought by hard work and great sacrifice, not by mere words and wishful thinking.
Anyway, you’re a most kind and patient chap to host two such difficult sorts as Ductape and myself, Booman. Hat’s off to you.
Man, i think you are coming down way to hard on this guy.Duct tape. Just relax a little. What difference does it make that he doesn’t want to reveal anything about himself. That’s his business to try and force him through attacks just shows how upset you are getting about not having the satisfaction of being able to know for sure that he is everything you apparently hope he is….which would be, I don’t know, somebody who works for Merril Lynch or something.
The internet is talking heads. There aren’t any bodies associated with them so who knows who anybody might really be. There is no context here, no certainty.
The only thing I am asking the mysterious Mr. Ductape to reveal is what action he has taken, away from his blogging, to end the unjust, immoral, illegal occupation of Iraq. He need not give any specifics, merely state “I participate in anti-war demonstrations” or “I am a tax refuser” or “I belong to anti-war organisations and give them money”. General statements like that aren’t going to reveal anything about his identity.
Why doesn’t he make those statements? Two reasons: First, he has a sneering contempt for the other folk here at BooTrib–that much is apparent after being subjected to the reading of even a few of his posts. Second, he hasn’t done a goddamned thing in the real world.
Am I being too hard on him? Actually, I’ve gone easy on him.
were eyeing those WH gates for quite a while back in September. But I’m pretty sure if we had stormed it we would turned around and found that we were alone.
And getting shot and possibly killed is not a partiotic thing to do if nothing positive results from it.
I find this whole discussion tiresome. The war in Iraq was a blunder. Its justification was based on lies. It has created a giant mess in the region and here at home. However, it is not as simple as ‘it was illegal, so it must be resisted with violence, or imprisonment or tax evasion’.
The real reasons we went into Iraq had to do with the fact that we were already there. A fact too many anti-warriors conveniently forget. We were also already being blamed for crimes against humanity because of the sanctions.
People need to distinguish between the war in Iraq and our defense posture and strategy in the whole region. A good source is the book Zinni wrote with Tom Clancy. Zinni was the head of CENTCOM under Clinton. He is quite candid about the bipartisan defense strategy for the region. And putting up with Saddam’s shit was low on our bipartisan list of objectives.
What this war still might accomplish is getting Americans to understand the true costs of empire, what that empire contributes to the global economy and what blowback is.
It just might finally convince both the Americans and the other first-world countries of the merits of multilateral approaches to security issues and the need to wean ourselves off ME oil and gas.
Because, frankly, the ME nations are totally disfunctional. And attempting to bring them into the community of nations that function with modern institutions, rule of law, and representative government is a thankless task that probably won’t work. If it could work, it would require the consensus and investment of all first-world nations. That is something Bush failed to line-up, and the price for that failure cannot be underestimated.
That being dysfunctional is something US shares with so many of its client states.
The past cannot be undone. What the west, recently with US at its helm, has wrought cannot be erased. No one can go back in time and send Lawrence to Switzerland or Lapland instead, or better still, to his den, to curl up with a good book.
Even when the US is removed, recovery will take time. Rape victims can confirm this is not unique to victims of imperialism on a larger scale. However, few will wish the rapist to hang around to “help” with the recovery process. Seeing him at the trial will be quite enough.
My hope for the US is that it will cease aggression and disarm voluntarily, and that American parents will make a wise choice to the question that destiny now manifests (irony again) to them:
Would you prefer that your child grow up to be a proficient bicycle rider, or an Abu Ghraib “interrogator?”
it isn’t so simple.
There is no question that the majority of Iraqis do not want Americans in their country. It is true that many people feel strongly enough about this to take up arms, or even to commit suicide trying to drive us out.
But that is only a part of the violence going on in Iraq. The Iraqi government is the only hope for Iraqi society. That is true whether we stay or go. Yes, it can be said that the government is merely a puppet of the United States. But that doesn’t make it true. They are dependent on us, so we still have a large say, but are trying to fashion a government that be (at least theoretically) answerable to the people and where power can occassionally change hands.
Under the circumstances the alternative is civil war, and a totally disfunctional economy and society.
Yet, the insurgents are operating on some absurd assumption that by driving the Americans out and destroying the central government, they can make things better for themselves and their families.
There is an insurgency in Iraq, and it is not aimed at us, but at the Shi’a dominated government. And it will go on long after we leave.
in their commitment to the cherished doctrine of Manifest Destiny, which while American in origin has been eagerly received by many erstwhile colonial and imperial powers.
However, the effort to generate the same level of enthusiasm beyond that 14-15% or so of the world’s people has not been successful, and in my opinion, the chances that this will change are so small as to be statistically non-existent.
“Iraq” as you will recall, its itself a creation of a previous western adventure there, in fact most of the oil producing region of the world has strained under the yoke of western business interests for quite some time.
It is indeed an ideological impasse, not unlike the one at which we might find ourselves should I decide to invade your home and blow up a few members of your family because you have a lot of stuff that I want. You, in that circumstance, might prefer that I leave, while I, on the other hand, might present the (to me) irrefutable argument that you have stuff and I want it.
manifest destiny, you know nothing about me or my desire to make sure that, that particularly offensive doctrine is never again used to perpetuate american aggrssion upon the world.
My ancestors were nearly wiped off the face of the earth because of that doctrine.
Your smug appraisal that ALL americans invoke that doctrine smacks of dogmatic thinking and a lack of understanding how the American republic works. Of course your vocal appraisal that America has been a corrupt and decadant country from its very beginnings, that we have never ever offered the world anything but pollution, destruction and despair clearly identifies that America needs to be completely destroyed and all americans tried as war criminals for the crime of being american.
Your philosophical renderings and rhetorical answers do little to help solve problems.
In fact, some time ago, I did an entire rant on it
The American Anti-War Choice: Traitor or Hypocrite
Yes, the US was founded on the principles of genocide and slavery, and just as there are descendants of victims alive today, so are there descendants of those principles, made manifest in the destiny which now explodes the flesh of our brothers’ children.
I remain opposed to genocide and slavery, without qualification, without reservations or exclusion causes or excusion clauses. And I feel the same way about torture and mass murder and atrocities in general.
Is there good in America? You bet. Just an example, Stu Piddy, with whom, by the way, I do not completely agree. He thinks thought is not behavior. In my opinion, it is. But I digress.
In another post on this thread, I posted a link that lists several other good things about America, besides the ketchup, even.
Check out this link
See if that one makes you as angry as does this grizzled old terrorist, and maybe even helps you on your journey. I know it is not a pleasant one.
I have never once described you as a terrorist.
I may disagree vehemently with your assessment of my country, I may even call you an asshat, but I would defend your right to say what you will with everything I am as a human being.
My country is far from perfect, it is currently being run by PNAC fascist who want to control the world. I will fight against them with everything I am and everything I have in order to help bring about policy and regime change within my country.
It helps me little when I am accused of being a warmonger and criminal because my countries leaders are such. I have fought against this piece of shit presidency and its criminal actions from the day they began spewing forth their lies about Iraq and bin Laden. For good or bad it is my country and I will work my ass off to facilitate change in its policies concerning the Middle East and in particular our continued subsidy of the Fascist who currently control Israel. Israel has a right to exist, it does not have the right to arbitrarily deny human rights to millions of Palestinians, nor does it have the right to steal thousands of square miles of Palestinian land.
That I hold the current administrations of both Israel and the US in contempt has never been hidden by me, here or in my offline life.
Wow! That’s great!
i feel like you have only as many arguments as a golfer has clubs. If I say x you will respond with the sand wedge, and if I say y you will break out the nine iron.
The first thing is: we can bemoan the European settlement of America, the colonization of Africa, the cutting up of the Ottoman empire, all day long.
What is indisputable is that our modern world with all its amenities, health care, high standard of living… was built by the same people that went about taking land, minerals, and labor from the less powerful.
The American Indians were treated terribly. No one can dispute that. But, in some sense it was an unfortunate byproduct of two cultures clashing where one had a massive technological advantage.
This has happened again in the Muslim world, after the Ottomans fell. 70 years ago Saudi Arabia had few roads, hospitals, institutes of higher learning. Most Arabians were bedouins. And that is fine. Many would prefer to go back to that existence and be rid of modernity completely. But the European dominance of the world (and all America is, is the biggest example of this) was a double-edged sword. It brought genocide, epidemics, disruption, dislocation, exploitation…and it brought medicine, sanitation, safe construction, schools, principles of governence and human rights…
I would prefer that America work within the construct of the UN, or some other multilateral institution, to keep things running smoothly. I would love to see Iraq keep the lion’s share of the revenues that are produced from their oil fields, and to use it to invest in their nation. But when BP went to Iran, they didn’t just steal their oil.
A better analysis would be if I broke into your home and stole your silverware but also insulated your attic, but in central air conditioning, and eliminated the termite problem.
And it is true, because the questions really are simple.
Who owns the land you now call “Iraq?” Who owns the oil there?
Now as for your analogy, just for the sake or argument, I will not quibble, which I certainly could, but go with it – if I insulate the attic and install the air conditioning, but make you go out and live in a wire pen, while your rich cousins enjoy all the cool air, and I continue to take your stuff, as time passes, suppose I slipped up and left your wife in there with you, and you reproduce, maybe a neighbor family gets thrown in there too, before long, I am going to have my hands full keeping your rich cousins supplied with enough money to keep putting up higher wire around that pen.
So much money that one day I find that I must choose between buying shoes for my own children and paying your rich cousins to prevent your children there in the pen from getting their feet into shoes that might tempt them to try to climb the fence.
Next thing you know, the baby diaper box is empty, all the kids need medicine, and all that’s left in the fridge is half a dry lemon and a stale chicken sandwich.
But your house still has a whole basement wing full of antique jewelry that I haven’t even looked over yet, and I just love antique jewelry. Your rich cousin says that one of your kids is standing at the door of it, digging in the dirt for rocks. Also he is tired of his Rolex and wants a new one. He needs enough money to fence off that door, have rocks removed from the ground, and buy a new Rolex.
I decide that my kids have too much Resolve to get sick, diapers cause rashes, and lemon goes very well with chicken.
Besides, once I get that antique jewelry, I will be able to buy an electrified fence to contain you guys in the pen. I’ve heard some disturbing reports that some of your cousins are such radicals that you aren’t even grateful for all that attic insulation.
like you’ve confused me with the House of Saud.
After all, I came into their house and told them there was this stuff in the basement that was very valuable. Who knew? Then I offered to take it out of the basement (a very difficult thing to do), refine it, and sell it. In return, I asked for a huge return on my investment. They agreed to the deal.
Then they used the not inconsiderable amount of money they had suddenly lucked upon to build lavish estates for 4,000 of their cousins and give them huge stipends to go whoring and gambling.
In other words, the Saudis could have created a paradise that was the envy of the Muslim world, and instead they created a tyranny and failed to share the wealth with the people.
Who is the bigger asshole? Me, who gave you great wealth, or you, who squandered it?
I know it is not that simple. But since you like simple arguments…
And I only wish US would try this simple test.
Stop propping up the princes. See how long it takes the Arabian people to send them scampering off to Switzerland.
Now the government the people would choose might not be to your liking, and it is entirely possible, in fact, I would say it is a certainty, that the US government is not to the liking of many, if not most, of the Arabian people 😉
much like that outcome except…
Why is it that we should do the Arabian people a favor that they will be so ungrateful for?
Asked another way, why can’t we get any credit or sympathy no matter what we do?
And as a practical matter, haven’t the Sauds rigged their oil fields to blow at their command? I don’t think we can afford to mess with them. Plus they own half this country. Should we just seize that wealth and return it to the Arabian people?
your house, that has in it so much stuff I want, if you are going to be so ungrateful that you will continue to conduct your life in a way I do not approve of?
Simple answer: it is your house, not mine, your stuff, not mine, and it is not up to me to dictate to you.
If the oil wells are “rigged to blow,” you can be sure that with so much money at stake, it it US who has rigged them, and US who can un-rig them as they leave the room, pulling the chairs out from under the princes on the way to the door.
What the US may have “sold” to the princes is not the problem of the Arabian people, it is the problem of the American people, although in the interest of full disclosure I will admit that I would not at all oppose returning all assets to the Arabian people as part of the stop propping princes process, and if you will just repeat that last phrase rapidly twelve times, you will agree.
in your argument here.
This house analogy won’t work.
The oil deal the Americans have with the Saudis is quite fair. We aren’t stealing their oil. In the past, the oil deals were not fair, but the Saudis learned quickly.
I believe the Iranians recently signed a deal with Japan to extract either oil or gas, and they gave them something like a 40% commission. Is that stealing by the Japanese or incompetence by the Iranians?
The problem with the Sauds is not that they are being ripped off by the Americans. It is that they are hopelessly corrupt.
And if they are willing to spend half their treasure to buy an air force they can’t even fly or maintain, who are we to argue with them?
Likewise, the oil in Iraq will remain in the ground and worthless until such time as the Iraqis sign a contract with us, or the Brits, French, Russians, Norwegians, Chinese or Japanese to extract it for them. As such, the oil is worthless to Iraqis without the intervention of Westerners or Far Easterners. So, fine, keep your great stuff and be free of imperialism.
Secondly, the House of Saud is primarily responsible for their own corruption and are the biggest problem the Arabian people face. Yes, we have been enablers, and we have trained them in the fine points of money laundering, interrogation, and electronic surveillence. That’s all a fine and noble point. But it was their decision to rule their country so foolishly. It’s not America’s fault that the Sauds are a loutish group of whoring thugs.
However, it is the US’s fault that it installs and props up scum.
Let them go be corrupt in Switzerland. They own enough of it.
how exactly did we install the House of Saud? And I don’t think they were scum exactly back when FDR cut his deal with them. They were just a powerful tribe of Wahhabi backed warriors. They had no idea what a modern state works like, no idea about the best cuisine on Lake Geneva, or the best whores in Monaco.
Let me ask you this. Why do Muslims tolerate those goons running the Land of the Two Holy Places. Forget Israel. They oppress a relatively tiny amount of Muslims, and Jerusalem is holy but it ain’t Medina.
I’ll be a whole lot more impressed by the anti-Western rhetoric of the Muslim world when they start really giving a shit about their own behavior toward their own citizens.
Seeing people pray for Saddam is pretty hard to take. I’m the first person to tell a wingnut to fuck off when they try to excuse American behavior by reference to the behavior of Saddam or some punk with a bomb in a backpack and a bunch of lies in his head. But it is still very tiresome to have our misbehavior held up to the highest standards when the behavior of our enemies is so much worse, and always has been.
The Palestinians are the prime example. I doubt Israel has ever treated them with the contempt they received in Lebanon and Jordan. But somehow the Muslim world embraced them as the most important thing in the world, after years of enslaving them in concentration camps.
Bottom line? I hate the fucking House of Saud. I intensely dislike Mubarak, Qaddafi, Saddam, Assad, and I no big fan of Musharraf. Yassir Arafat was a criminal to both the Israelis and the Palestinians. Sharon is an asshole, who should be in prison for his crimes in Lebanon. How much of this should be blamed on the Americans? Very little in my opinion. Some. But not nearly so much as the rhetotic would indicate.
deal and he certainly would not have been able to maintain it if he had taken the money and used it to have elections. US does not now and has not ever sought out tribal chieftains with lofty ideas about fraternity, liberty and brotherhood.
What they wanted, and what they want today, are dollahos who will promise to put US business interests first.
And the princes are not exactly beloved, the Arabian Resistance is actually quite active, though press reports, especially those that make it to US corporate media are scant, vague, and fleeting.
US spends an incredible amount of money to keep the various “pro American governments” in the region from being Ceaucescu’d. Crackdowns on insurgents, you know.
And the cost continues to rise.
And Americans continue to pay for it.
if the Arabian resistence was made up people that are outraged at their profligate spending, total lack of regard for even the most rudimentary human rights, and their autocracy, rather than by a bunch of religious fanatics that don’t think Saudi society is strict enough.
At least the Iranian revolution was waged by the people and only later hijacked by fanatics.
Forgive me if I am not impressed by the hypocrisy I see in the ‘resistance’. If it were sincere, we could actually help, as we did in Poland.
is quite likely to disagree with both you and me on a number of questions, that they also oppose all the things you cite.
That is why they are resisting. 😉
I don’t think US has positioned itself favorably in the region for any further “help” to be desired.
US can help the Majority World best by reducing its emulation of the princes, and having a bit of concern for its own growing hordes of increasingly desperate poor, and its own children.
A better analysis would be if I broke into your home and stole your silverware but also insulated your attic, but in central air conditioning, and eliminated the termite problem.
I like your analysis. But, I think it presumes that central air, insulation and the elimination of pests (along with the energy infrastructure and chemical processing plants that would be required to support them — things that you as the burglar would be happy to provide on a “offer you can’t refuse” basis) are “positives,” whereas, I am pretty sure invadees would always look at the “negatives” (the theft) and the “positives” (the amenities you thought you were supplying) as part of the usurpation of what their civiliazation was.
I see you as a real-politic kind of guy, from what I read. This is what we got, and these are our practical options, history and theory aside. And I can accept that, and think it is rational. But one thing in the instant case (your case for not leaving the mess in Iraq now) that I think you don’t factor in, is that it is the U.S. presence that is causing suicide bombings. I suppose you would disagree with this point, from your earlier comments. That there is something inherent about Sunnis and Shia that would lead them to suicide attacks against one another even in our absence. I’ve mentioned before the book Dying to Win. I think statistics support the idea that it is our presence, and not their religion, that is causing this behavior. So in a real-politic kind of way, I think leaving would leave them better off.
And since I am jumping in here anyway, I’d also say that you and super weren’t the only ones with thoughts of storming something that day. I don’t think a revolutionary response from those who dissent lurks far below the surface in our current setting.
Number One: think of Iraq as Fort Knox. It has the biggest concentration of raw wealth anywhere in the world. Everyone is thinking either about how to get in and steal that wealth, or about how to keep people out and prevent the theft of that wealth.
For this reason, only a very strong central government can prevent violence. And the would-be burglars are quite willing to pay Sunni and Shi’a religious teachers to stir up any kind of trouble that suits them. I’m sure the Chinese, French, Japanese, Iranians, Brits, Israelis, and many others have several ‘religious scholars’ on their payroll promising eternal salvation to the next ‘insurgent’.
So, yes, I have a very realpolitik take on things.
Taking a notch down from the top-level players, there is a real sectarian problem. The Shi’a are looked down upon by the Sunnis in a way that is not entirely different from how the Jim Crow south looked down on blacks. And you can sure that Atlanta would still not have a black mayor if there were huge oil fields underneath it. The Sunnis have a real problem with being governed by Shi’a. They are less annoyed by their daughter marrying a Shi’a than they are by the prospect of being ruled by them. And there are the Kurds, who have to be least popular people on Earth.
I’m not saying we should stay in Iraq. I’m saying that Iraq will be much more fucked up after we leave.
I’m not enough of a real-poitiktian to argue with you. I guess I’ve seen your write (above) leave now or leave later, it is still a fucking mess. I vote for now.
But I agree there is going to be a bloodbath to pay because the madman with the iron fist was removed. He was there for a reason, as I’m sure your ivy-spook friends would know. And really, someone like him needs to rise (or be installed) again to avoid a vacuum.
and gave me the task of preventing the collapse of the central government, I would not only threaten to leave, I would begin making tangible steps to leave.
That would wake up the average Iraqi to a rather harsh reality. They are much more likely to die, to be blown up randomly, to be tortured, to be held in dismal conditions without charges, to be raped, to be disappeared, or beheaded on the roadside, if we leave than if we stay.
And maybe seeing us leaving will refocus their energies to fucking getting along and working to make their near hopeless democracy work.
And if they don’t wake up? There is no help for it, and we will be packed and ready to go.
I would like to see the US leave Iraq, and Afghanistan, and every where else they are, repatriating all gunmen, “contractors,” “support staff,” “consultants” both overt and covert and take every weapon they brought with them, and leave anything that might be remotely useful, like tents or buildings they have built for themselves.
And yes, I assumed that BooMan’s central air etc were positives, to a certain extent for the sake of argument, you are quite right that they are kind of like the jewelry a pimp gives a prostitute, and I am quite right that they are not given to the people as a whole, but to the sleaziest sell granny for a dime, scumbag dollahos US and UK have been able to find over the course of three or four generations now, there were a couple, like in Kuwait, who said, the whole tribe or no deal, but most of them said, me and my family, or me and my homies.
So for many of the people in the region, the question of whether they want attic insulation and central air enough to trade their sovereignty and their kids’ futures for it, indeed whether they want it at all, is a moot one, because they do not have it.
You made the point about the analogy better and faster. And this:
they are kind of like the jewelry a pimp gives a prostitute.
Quite a gift to succinctly make a point.
Looking at global sattelite imagery of the shrinking Arctic, I’m starting to think many of our societal arguments won’t matter for too many more generations. That perhaps the planet will settle all this bullshit for us.
The insurgency is aimed at both the Shia government and the US. There is no distinction between the two, I think- by the insurgents. It’s just a question of which can most easily be attacked and which is more effective.
Now, there is also an insurgency in the waiting. From the Shia (and Kurd potentially) against the US with Iranian support. No group wants the US there and they are ready at any time to attack the US and it happens on occasion as seen in Basra against the British and in Baghdad by Sadr a Shiite. I believe the Shia insurgency is armed ready and waiting for the word. If they thought it would get America out and that they would have enough back up from Iran it would happen in an instant.
Shia hate america’s presence. The Kurds for political reason and recent historical reasons are less inclined but I think almost equally ready should circumstance present themselves to attack Americans.
I think Iraq was better off with the Sunnis running things, both for Iraqis and for America.
This, it seems to me,about half of what many people here seem unwilling to accept . . . that Iraq was better off under Sadam than it is under US occupation. Sadam built a country . . . built roads and bridges, built schools, built hospitals, built a secular government that vastly expanded women’s rights and held the religious fundamentalists at bay. The US blows up bridges, schools and hospitals, and has allowed religious fundamentalism to re-emerge as the strongest force in Iraqi life (the greatest loss being to women).
The other half of the denial is the unwillingness to accept that American troops are not the “good guys” . . . they are the invaders, the destroyers, the occupiers. Americans are the “foreign fighters” who are destroying Iraq.
Another altogether different argument is whether “the troops” are responsible individuals deserving honor and respect, or merely irresponsible objects (like a tire on a humvee) who “do their duty” and are quietly sent for disposal if they go flat. In my view the really weird ones here are those who want it both ways . . . we’re supposed to “respect” the tire . . . (it’s just “following orders”, after all).
Really well put here are some links in addition to all the lies about Sadaam. I don’t know who Sadaam Hussien but here are some of the lies about him
He was caputrued in a hole. No it was a Jennifer Eccelston made for TV movie.
He killed 400,000 people. Not so PM office Britain
He gassed his own people. Not so says the CIA
I am an American because I have been exposed to the culture. I try on my best days to resist the culture and escape it. Not because I don’t like American Culture, but becasue it is a perceptual trap.
I don’t believe in patriotism or fighting wars for your country. I know what it’s like to be assualted physically. to fight back .and it’s happened numerous times, that’s enough for me. I hope that I don’t look for trouble.
That doesn’t mean that I havin’t been infected by those notions though. I see it as a personal problem when I sense a it in myself.
We are beings. We are born in a location and exposed to those influences thats all we are. There is no reason to believe there is anything special about you or your country. It would be better to wonder what it is that we are rather than to define it by your place of birth. We must be more than that. Jeez look at those Galaxies out there! What’s that all about?
Of course people can love their country for whatever reason. But that shouldn’t include the politics. When in any country has that ever been something to be proud of? Or the Army of a country? Rather the geograhy, their love of the familiar, whatever.
Because of the emotional, spoilt baby tone Stu Piddy has taken, I shall not waste time with polite words nor diplomatic phrasing.
Quite obviously you have never been in the military. Nor do you understand the relationship between civilian authority and the military organisation in the United States and the United Kingdom.
As a combat veteran of the first Gulf War, I have seen what war does to civilians and soldiers alike. It is brutal, dehumanising, ugly, and horrific. War should be, must be, the last resort in international relations. My heart goes out particularly to the Iraqi civilians, who have no safe harbour from the horrors that unfold daily in their country. There seems to be no end to their tribulations.
I have relatives and friends and former comrades in arms serving in both the Iraqi and Afghani theatres. They do not want to be there, but they went because their elected government despatched them.
Quite simply, the troops go where they are sent. The military follows orders. It is no fault of theirs that they have been sent into a country where they are surrounded by hostile natives who want them gone. It is the fault of the civilians in the United States who allowed the Bush/Cheney regime to rise to power and to remain there.
Would you have it otherwise? Do you REALLY want a military in which the officers and soldiers decide which orders they will and will not follow from the duly constituted civilian authorities? Perhaps you should think things through before you pound out words on your keyboard.
Whose fault is it that the American and British soldiers have been sent into an unmanageable, increasingly unstablel situation?
Let us write a list.
It is the fault of the Senators who voted for the Iraq war resolution without debate or dissent.
It is the fault of the Congress which continues to authorise funds for this mad misadventure, thereby abdicating its Constitutional obligation to act as a check on the executive branch.
It is the fault of half of the American people who couldn’t be bothered to get off their lazy arses and vote for a candidate, any candidate, who might have begun to get the United States out of Iraq.
It is the fault of half of those who did vote, for casting their ballots for Bush/Cheney when it’s clear that neither man can manage to wind a ball of twine, let alone manage the occupation of Iraq.
It is the fault of the American media for not exposing the lies and crimes of the Bush/Cheney regime–and for helping to cover up those lies and crimes as active collaborators.
It is the fault of the British public and the British government for initially agreeing to tag along on this fool’s errand, and for continuing to support it even when it’s clear to any sane man that there can be no good result from a continued US/UK occupation of Iraq.
It is the fault of the American people who, even now, refuse to rise up and demand that their Congress put Bush and Cheney in check. Bush and Cheney do not have to face the voters again; the Congress does, and the people should demand that Congress heed its will.
Do not mistake me as an apologist for war criminals. Soldiers who violate the Geneva Convention and other international conventions governing their conduct in war should be prosecuted for war crimes and/or court-martialed. But to lay all the blame on the soldiers–all of them, a blanket condemnation–is foolish, irresponsible, and puerile almost beyond belief.
With allies like Stu Piddy, I don’t need enemies, thank you very much.
I agree with you. You didn’t read the article to it’s conclusion. I have no argument with what you say.
Did you not write, “American troops can no longer be forgiven…”?
You apportion blame to society at large, but demand that the troops take the risk of court-martial and imprisonment for refusal to follow orders, yet express no plan to assume a similar risk by refusal to cooperate with the tax man, for example.
I stand by my remarks. I read your ill-considered rant from start to finish. We are not in agreement.
Right we are not in agreement if your blame excludes the troops. aI am not for civil punishment of any troops no matter what they did. But they should be condemned if they are doing shit like this Captain. I am not in love with the military. I am against the mililtay. The military is a place where people get used.
I haven’t the the time this morning to address this diary fully, or read all the comments. Let me just say this. Our troops don’t get to pick and choose their wars, nor did they get to choose what country they would be born into. Once they signed on the dotted line to protect their nation of origin, they become subject the will of Congress, in whom the founders placed the responsibility of declarations of war. They did that so that the decision would represent the people. It’s not the troops fault, any more than everyone else’s fault that the system has broken down, that we have president who thinks he’s king, and that America has become an empire in denial that is in an empire. Either we have a military or we don’t. Nation-states without military protection don’t last very long.
And let me just say this. Sleeping next to me is my husband, a US Marine, who fought in Iraq at the war’s inception. It is not a war he chose. it is not a war he thought was worth a single human life, but he loves his country and he undertook to protect it, and followed the orders given him, else he would have likely gone to jail. He is not stupid, brainwashed, or any other pejorative you might wish to fling at him. He’s brilliant, thoughtful and kind. You paint with a very broad brush, my friend. It’s called prejudice. You blame the actions of part of group on the entire group. You know nothing of military service. You know nothing of the fine men and women who serve their nation in its decisions of war and peace. War is hell. Some people die. Some people are injured physically or morally. Some are twisted by the experience into unrecognizable creatures. But war is part of life on earth, for the foreseeable future. Trust me. You don’t want to know what it means to live in a country that is NOT prepared for that.
Record keeper said:
War is hell. Some people die. Some people are injured physically or morally. Some are twisted by the experience into unrecognizable creatures. But war is part of life on earth, for the foreseeable future. Trust me. You don’t want to know what it means to live in a country that is NOT prepared for that.
Stu says: I think I do live in a country that is not prepared for War! It’s called the United States. This country isn’t protecting itself. Not in Vietnam, not in Iraq.
I don’t have a problem with a military that defends a country. If that is what militaries did, there would be few wars. Militaries generally aren’t used for defense they are used for attack.
So the personalizing… this stuff about your husband….this isn’t about him.
Stu Piddy said,
“American soldiers are dumb, trained morons. That’s what they are and they keep proving it over and over again. Dummies trained them. After watching this I don’t care about these American Troops and the excuse the are just doing their job”
Then Stu Piddy said,
“So the personalizing… this stuff about your husband….this isn’t about him”.
Seems to me you made it personal by convicting all for the actions of some.
You people keep saying I am saying the soldiers are to blame alone. And that every single soldier is to blame. You need to reread the post.
I am referring to troops who are being trained and actually go to Iraq. I am speaking in general terms. You could not have the abuses of Abu Ghraib and all the others that we are not allowed to know about, the blantant on camera picture of a innocent family recieving a tank round while TV crews set up the shot. The shelling of this house was a made for TV movie. The capture of Sadaam was a made for TV movie….it didn’t happen….Judith Millers reporting was out of a novel it wasn’t true. The entire war is like a Leni Riefenstahl movie from Germany in the 30’s.
So what I am saying is that in General American troops are trained Morons. All soldiers are trained to be morons. Some pretend to be for survival reasons within the military and others accept it and relish it.
The Military is not a good place for human activity. It;s purpose is destruction it is an awful instittution that makes itself necessary for absolutely no good reason.
I am against the military of any country unless it’s just for defense and aid in case of natural or other kinds of disasters. It’s out of control on this planet…why can’t you see that? It’s used for offensive, predatory purposes by this nation.
THe military is incompetent and out of control. And largely unnecessary. There is no Al Queda threat. The Russians are not coming, The chinese are not coming, Only the Mexicans are coming and they are welcome as far as I am concerned.
In my idealistic, childhood heart I hate the fact that there are armies too. Maybe someday in the far off future humans will have evolved enough to not need armies, even for defense, but you have to know that if we had no military the Russians, Chinese and the Koreans, as well as every other country we have ever wronged would be coming. There is no doubt about that.
Your diary said to hell with American troops. I didn’t know you were making a distinction between those in Iraq and everyone else. A troop is a troop no matter where they are. At least Ductape makes no distinctions in his/her posts. They are all criminals, just as I took you to mean that they are all morons.
I wonder. Do or diid the Russians worry that the US would invade, the Chinese?
Only the Americans are so naive, in my opinion, to take ideology so serously. Even Chariman Mao made private jokes to US stateman about this. He really didn’t beilieve in Communism and neither did the Russians. The threat is now from the United States to the World. That is what the world thinks.
All right if a troop is a troop then they are all dummies, I don’t care. i will use your logic. Is that gratifying?
You know, I sometimes act quite stupidly. I do dumb things. Sometimes I am a dummy. Why can’t it be possible that other people can act like dummies or is it that I am the only one?
The senisitivity among some people is overwhelming. Who do you think you are? God’s little angels. Pure?
Did someone else write this diary for you, Mr. Piddy?
You stated: “American soldiers are dumb, trained morons. That’s what they are and they keep proving it over and over again. Dummies trained them. After watching this I don’t care about these American Troops and the excuse the are just doing their job”
I don’t know why Recordkeeper would take offence at having her husband called a “dumb, trained moron” (you said, not SOME American soldiers, but ALL), do you? I happen to know a bit about her husband and he’s a sensible, decent chap who’s highly intelligent and educated–scarcely the picture of a “dumb, trained moron”. The United States is fortunate to have someone like him in its military. Unlike some people, he does things in the real world–he does the duty of a citizen, even if it’s hard, and he doesn’t merely sit behind his computer screen and type out whines and complaints about the big, bad world.
And those of you, like Mr. Piddy and Mr. Ductape, who don’t like the military…weren’t you crying about sending the National Guard and the regular military to New Orleans and thereabouts to rescue folk in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina? Would you abolish the military altogether? Or are we only rough, brutish morons when you don’t need us and your knights in shining armour when you do?
Let me leave you, and this diary, with a quote from one of the 20th century’s most insightful political writers:
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.–George Orwell, nee Eric Blair
I think that generally speaking – and I did not say all – and I did say some- but I am saying that soliders are people who get used by governments. Solidiers are people who give themselves up. Their entire being, they submit to an authority which will rules them, physically and mentally.
I don’t think that’s a good thing.
I am not impressed that you served in the military. Your entire approach is a who is more macho approach and that is the one of carrots the military holds out to people. You will become a man (woman). The military will make a man out of you.
Sometimes people join because they need a job. For adventure. But the military is going to tell you it will make you a stronger person as a result of your “service to your country”, I think that’s a lie. I think that’s been the old story of how the military operates military in history.
You see I think the worlds quite mad. i don’t believe in it. History is like coral of lies. One on top of the other until we have no idea what’s going on.
I’m a man. I didn’t serve in the military. And I won’t unless I were to choose to. I can’t imagine it. I will try to decide, hopefully, to the best of my ability and irrespective of what nation I live in and it laws what I will do with physical self.
Look, let’s hope for the best and that we agree that they get the hell out of there, hopefully it will delay something inevitable and awful .