I think we might need a new name for “flame wars” here as they aren’t true flame wars.,,,,because still only 4’s are given, even in the most contentious diaries, except of course for our lovely troll bill .
I am hoping the site has settled down now, it was such a roller coaster with many highs and lows these last few days.
So difficult when friends are fighting and you may agree on some points with both sides, but now you can’t say them cause you will be dragged into the fight and called siding. If you try to intervene, better choose your words carefully or they can be taken wrong by one or the other or look over your shoulder a new attack from the right flank.
Seems like we are trying to create here is intellectual debate, mostly based on personal views about many different subjects, or personal perceptions about world events, and then the next thing you know it becomes about my facts versus your facts, my knowing vs your knowing, my writing vs your writing and then me vs you.
And what is resolved in the end, not much, in fact people get hurt, people get angry, people feel put off from even posting anything on the subject lest you may attract one or more of the fighting factions and then boom you are in it too.
So what I am thinking right now is that when you fight you are ruining the experience for the rest of us, we can be all jolly after leaving the cafe and amble by a diary with an interesting topic, settle in to read, hmmmm, scroll down the comments, oh nice comment, give a 4, good discussion going here, what’s next, rubbing hands, next comment, oh dear X is mad at J for what, now let me see, and you go back and read previous comment and what I don’t get that here, so you go back and read the diary and still no, I don’t get that here, then back down to the comments, what did I miss, look at the next and next and oh what fighting going on all the way down.
You make a choice then, leave a diary that might have been good and fun or innformative, but now you are turned off. Others will see the fight and say well I like what he said, so I’ll jump in and add another bat to this fight, back and forth they go, batters coming in, getting out, then a peacemaker may come along, or it may be you if you are very brave and trys to lay some gentle calming on the situation. Boom next thing you know, the peacemaker is attacked.
Another Peacemacker puts up a diary and says, Hey folks tell us why you came here and why you stay, thinking that folks will stop and think, did they come here to fight or come here to talk and learn and have some fun at times and not to be all that angry because lord knows the world is tough enough right now just getting along in life.
This started out as a comment but decided to diary it, because I think it is important for us to realize that fighting ruins it for the rest of us and we want to go running away from the site, we stop writing, comenting,we stop visiting, we stop lurking and then we’re gone. So next time you feel like exchanging harsh words think about the rest of us and not just how you feel.
As they are fond of saying in bars, if your’re gonna fight then take it outside and in this case that would mean, take it to the old email.
Your thoughts?
Come on over and give me your thoughts on my thoughts and we can be redundant together and I even have cheesecake for Catnip, which I am sure she will share.
Oh heck, I just realized it’s midnight here so I’m sorry but I have to go to bed and I’ll catch up with you all in the morning. Looking forward to seeing your comments.
sure…lure me with the promise of cheesecake and then take off.
Prepare for the wrath of catnip.
I’ll be back!
Catnip so sorry I bailed on you last night, I was writing this as a comment on Booman’s diary and it got so long I thought, diary it and then I saw the time and realized just how tired I was, but I have the cheese cake chilled and ready for you, that is unless you like it at room temp.
Would you like some coffee too….with the cheescake.
You are forgiven. Just don’t do that again!
🙂
room temp and tea please…
Coming right up and will there be sugar and creme in your coffee…..don’t forget to share…cheescake..
and share your thoughts as well, my friend.
will there be sugar and creme in your coffee
tea!
bad waitress! lol
I’ll think about that “sharing” thing.
What do you think I am? A communist or something? pffft…
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Bite for Bite Diane …
No problem … and I’ll just have small nibbles – to lengthen the joy of sharing!
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Fantastic diary. You sure have a way with words.
Myself, I guess I don’t mind being attacked. Pfft. Of course I do, it hurts like hell. But we’re taught we’re supposed to say pithy things like that and to laugh it off. Until one day we decide not to bother anymore.
Its kind of funny, in the usual sick and wrong sort of way. The people we think are the toughest and most able to “handle” things are the ones who get kicked around the hardest. I never knew media girl felt she was attacked sometimes when posting here until she said so this morning. She’s one tough lady, so I never suspected. And she’s certainly not alone. I never thought to show her or others support because I didn’t think they needed it. Support isn’t something you ask for tho, its something you accept when its given.
Right now, I’m not sure which bums me out more
I’m far from perfect, I’ve done at least one of those myself too recently. But I feel awful about it, and I’m just not getting the sense that’s a universal reaction.
I dunno. Maybe this place is destined to become a little more orange as it grows. Maybe its not all about encouraging open discussion. Maybe sometimes the more popular person ‘wins’, at the expense of someone else we all care about.
And maybe that’s okay. Maybe that’s practical.
But all the same, its a real disappointment. We’ll really be losing something special if that comes to pass.
Oh, and if you’re out there Brinnaine, hugs from me.
I’m sorry you’re feeling discouraged about all this Yaright. I found alot of your perspective helpful through all of this. And at times when I didn’t comment on it, that was because I was confused and didn’t want to write until I had something I felt clear enough to say. And from my experience, we might fight like the orange place, but most of us keep at it until we work it out. That feels different to me at least.
Thanks NL. You’re right, most of us do work it out, and it is different.
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Even our single troll is cherished! What a site, here at Booman’s Place.
You couldn’t get rid of me, even if you tried.
Heh Diane, remember the good old times here, when the only fight was between you and me! LOL
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Yes I remember our fight and we resolved it quite well didn’t we Oui, we took it to email and now we are friends,….
There are a couple others here that words between us led to emails which led to friendships and that has been one of the most positive things to come out of all this among a whole list of positive things.
Morning Oui!!!!
“. . .when the only fight was between you and me!”
Hey now, Oui. . .please don’t dismiss our midnight musings and misunderstandings over your technologically advanced, “magical dot”. . . oh. . .the lost innocence of my youth. . .;^)
Does anyone else out there watch “The Surreal Life” on VH1? I ask this because the season finale on Sunday night reminded me a bit of what’s been going on at BT. (Plus, it came to mind when Brenda so accurately commented on the “surreal” nature of recent events.)
For those not familiar with the show, each season they gather a group of “C List” celebrities, stick them in a house for a period of time, throw in some alcohol, some oddly constructed activities, and from there. . .who knows what’ll happen. Typically, what you witness, is an odd blend of folks who somehow, at the end, have formed lifelong friendships. (Who could possibly imagine a friendship between Ron Jeremy and Tammy Faye Baker? Or the love interest between Brigitte Nielson and Flavor Flav?) It never ceases to amaze me that such diverse cast members are consistently able to learn from each other, see beyond their differences, respect those differences, and build such strong relationships.
Well. . .this season, things weren’t quite the same. To kick things up a notch, the producers selected two alpha females as cast members – Omarosa (The Apprentice) and Janice “the world’s first supermodel” Dickinson.
Typically, viewers are “treated” to some minor dust-ups and personality conflicts – but this season, with the cameras constantly focused on the drama between Omarosa and Janice, the viewers never really got to know the other cast members. And the cast members were so focused on peacekeeping and putting out fires, it seemed they were unable to develop relationships among themselves. And at the end. . .each and every cast member couldn’t wait to leave. No teary-eyed hugs, no promises of life-long connections. Nada. And as a viewer, I felt cheated, because much of the viewing experience involves learning the background stories of the characters and watching the people develop and learn from each other. Afterward, some of the cast members have even sought treatment for addictions they otherwise may have ignored. (And heck, I never thought I’d find myself thinking things like: “Wow – Ron Jeremy seems like a really great guy”, or “Tammy Faye Baker is really an amazing woman – someone I’d love to have over for coffee”.) This season, I didn’t get to learn much about the cast members, I didn’t see growth among the cast, and they certainly didn’t develop lifelong relationships.
My point? I couldn’t help but think of this site as I watched that last episode. I dislike unnecessary drama with the intensity of a thousand suns, and it hurts me to see others getting hurt (on any side of a situation). And while we’re all focused on the drama and conflict, there could be some really great stuff happening on the sidelines, or maybe that great stuff has ceased to happen because of the conflicts. I dunno. Just an observation. No solutions, really.
As for me, I wish I would have spent more time this weekend commenting on and handing out “4s” for the beautiful pictures submitted to the photo fair. All the work and collaboration that went into that event was truly a sight to behold. And as many have mentioned in other posts – the photo fair was a lovely reflection of this community. Hats off to everyone who participated in that event. I deeply regret that I neglected to give each of you the credit you so deserve.
(In retrospect, I realize I shouldn’t have written this entire post attached to Oui’s comment. . .but heck, I also realize I’m not perfect, so please accept me warts and all.)
Wishing everyone a glorious day!
Peace
Very interesting comment Anom, regarding the Surreal Life and the associated correlation therin.
I didn’t get to see the last version of Surreal, what channel is that on BTW, now, used to be on Fox I think, but I could not locate the last.
I did watch the episodes you speak of with Tammy and Jerremy and I quite agree with you about how I grew to like and admire people I never thought possible, but seeing them in their humaness made a big difference. Some that I admired before were conversely turned into people I would never want to spend any time with, should I have the chance.
I have often thought we should have camera in the White House for all to see what goes on there, and camera’s all over Capitol Hill, in the offices, not just the hearings and the floor.
As usual Anom, your observations are very astute and I do accept you warts and all….
Good afternoon, lovely lady –
The Surreal Life is on VH1 – part of their “Celebreality” suite of shows – which includes, among others, “Breaking Bonaduce”. Whether he’s “acting” to any degree or not, I can say without hesitation that Danny Bonaduce really, really terrifies me. So. . .who, pray tell, of the past Surreal Life cast members, would you no longer care to spend time with? (As you may have guessed, I’m currently between client projects, so I’m briefly in a position to take on these deeply “profound” topics ;^)
You certainly didn’t miss much by not viewing this season of the Surreal Life (for the reasons mentioned above). I would have been really interested to learn more about the cast members – particularly Jose Canseco. To me – he came off like an arrogant dolt throughout the steroid fiasco and during his book release tours. But while viewing the show, he seemed to have quite a bit more substance to him than I had previously witnessed.
As far as cameras in the WH – I betcha there were probably one or two during the Nixon era. Damn -that would make for some interesting viewing! ;^)
On a side note. . .I’ve been thinking about many of the comments shared by BT members over the past few days, and the impact of group dynamics. Aside from the new dynamics created each time there’s been an influx, many of you have developed offsite friendships through e-mail and personal meet-ups, and many have developed relationships through shared participation in political activities (Crawford and D.C., for example) And. . .there’s really no turning back once you’ve shared a hotel room with Boxer Boy ;^). In other words, I believe there are numerous and varied circumstances driving the (perceived or actual) loyalties of site members. (FWIW)
Thanks for posting this diary, and thanks (as always), for your thoughtful commentary and peacemaking efforts. But most importantly, don’t forget to watch Boston Legal tonight!! ;^)
Wishing you all my best, kind friend.
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Loved it – think about it every time I place the ● !
Did you check my gender comment – “I remember” just now?
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And I think about it every time I see the dot ;^).
(Let’s not be digging up too many past conversations to share with all – but thanks for the trip down memory lane!)
Good day to you, and wishing you all my best!
made them think.
Which, in my opinion, is a positive thing. I’m a pro-thinking hardliner.
“You are with us or with the terrorists” was not just a soundbyte, it is a very real policy with very real consequences that did not really sink into every single person immediately.
Add the concept of individual moral responsibility to that, and there are going to be some people who do a lot of arguing with themselves, and sometimes they may need to “frame” it as an argument with you.
Really stupid people, or the criminally insane, are not going to do that. They’ll just run for office, and probably win. 😉
It is beyond tragic and unjust that so many people who are neither stupid, nor criminal, but neither are they Nelson Mandelas, Miep Gieses or Camilo Mejias or Harriet Tubmans should be forced into shoes that size by any entity, and it is only natural to be somewhat alarmed to find that the shoemaker is one’s own government.
Calling people names just might be a necessary step on their own personal path to foot growth.
Well, when you put it that way, I’ve been fortunate.
Compared to what you’ve faced (a bit here, but mostly by email and at your blog, from what I’ve read about it), my concerns are less about being called names or facing rudeness, and more meta in nature.
More like working in a flower garden, and appreciating all the weird and wonderful things others plant. Then seeing some stepped on as others are planted. I want them all planted, but I wish everyone were more careful where they stepped. Its so easy in concept.
But people are in a hurry, or don’t see the other flowers, or mistake them for weeds, or back into them and never even know, or step on them and shrug and move on.
In the end, the garden is going to be filled with flowers. Maybe that’s good enough. If someone steps on one or two of my flowers, I’ll just replant them. If they step on the flowers others have planted, I’ll help them replant, too. And if some see their flowers crushed, and quit coming to the garden, I’ll really miss them.
Maybe I’m a sap for using a flower metaphor. What can I say, that’s who I am. For me the goal isn’t to see a perfect 50 state flower strategy, its to share a passion for flowers and learn from others, and if I’m lucky, teach a bit of what I’ve learned in return.
So yeah, maybe I’m not cut out for the rough-and-tumble life of a rock (or politics). But then, it was an act of love and kindness — flowers, not rocks — that led to the whole Cindy Sheehan movement and the fantastic gang of Boo-trib folks traveling out to join it, and the rest of us here in the garden cheering them on.
(oh, and some of those flowers are tough with a capital T. some aren’t. I appreciate them all)
Although few would guess it, I am a firm believer in the principle that no one’s mind is going to be changed by what I or anyone else posts on a message board.
Sure, I’m human, and I would like to think that occasionally I write something that makes people think as opposed to wishing they could stuff me into a wood-chipper, but making someone think and changing their mind are very different things.
Take the imperialists. Please. 😉 Or exceptionalists or Manifestly and Progressively Destined, or whatever they are calling themselves this year.
Now somebody who truly believes in that doctrine is not going to change his beliefs because of anything some decrepit old terrorist types on the internets.
What we can hope to do is get him to consider that just as strongly as he believes it, people who do not believe it are equally as steadfast, and for that reason, it would be in his best interest if he expresses his views, promotes them, advertises them as the cure for excess perspiration and unmanageable hair, builds shrines to them in his home, but refrain from expressing them using explosive devices or other methods that do harm to human beings.
Because in the final analysis, that is what matters. Whether calico cats are of Satan or not is irrelevant, and whether John Ashcroft believes they are is irrelevant. What is relevant to John, and Mrs. John, and little Johnny Junior, is that if he launches an operation to kill all calico cats and the people who love them, there will be those who will object to it, and some of them will object so strongly to it that it puts him in danger, and next thing you know, the calico cat has been named the Official Spiritual Animal of the Unified and Non-Sectarian Higher Power Umbrella Group, and John is getting frog marched off to a cell filled with calico cat hair, to hear off-key dirges sung day and night under his window by bereaved owners of late calico cats.
Not because John held fast to his beliefs, but because he held fast to a gun and aimed it at those who did not share his beliefs.
He could have lived to a ripe old age, entertaining people and explaining to them the evils of calico cats over iced tea with sprigs of mint, he could have written letters to the editor, he could have bought his wife a little gold charm of a calico cat with an X through it, and had a fine and happy time doing it, with his integrity intact.
You may not agree with him but he has the right to his beliefs, people would have said, as they walked past the charming old home, and waved at the old white haired anti-calico cat crusader.
But he blew that chance, and now he sits in his cell, a common murderer of cats and their pet humans, the glory and honor of his undying devotion to principle now a tattered prison shoe, dusty with Kitty Litter.
Aha! (oh, and you are one very interesting and very warped personality)
As long as we’re musing, let me just say I think one of the least productive things one can do blogging is trying to convince someone else that they are wrong.
Talk about a fruitless exercise. What better venue to get someone to give up a tightly held belief in favor of one you proffer — in a public setting! Combine one part mindset shifting with a dash of re-evaluation of beliefs. Stir in canned enlightenment, and season with embarrassment or public humiliation to taste. Serves 0.
That’s not to say that changing minds doesn’t occur. It happens all the time! But not with the folks who have their minds already made up. For them, its a game of Jenga. If you can remove enough other blocks, perhaps enough pressure will be relieved to allow them to swap one block in the stack with another, without the whole mess tumbling down.
Most often, change occurs with the folks who are still building their stacks in a certain topic. That’s certainly the case with me. I’m a sponge, learning so much about things I’ve never experienced firsthand — from war protests in Crawford and marches in DC to the details of how elections are stolen or CIA leaks occur. The change occurs because I’m willing to let it happen.
The beauty is, much of it is passive. I don’t have to comment on a diary to learn from it. I don’t have to question the one teaching me new things, or even interact in the discussion. But at least here, when I want to, I can — usually without concern of any silly consequences.
That’s not true everywhere. Other places I had to suit up for combat, body check my way into the conversation, dodge some tripping, and compete. Rawr
Sounds like an initiation rite, or a bad boarding school in a horror movie. Or maybe its more like a bad revival meeting, and being cast out for questioning the man waving his arms around preaching the one true gospel of everything. Either way, what an awful way to learn.
Myself, I’m not into that, or even into learning by sitting in a class. Put me out there to do something. Put me out there with people who know what they’re doing, and let me watch and ask questions and learn.
I’ll learn a lot just being with a group of people (even when they don’t all know what they’re doing) who are all working together to figure it out. And if the group comes up with more than one answer (the most common outcome), I’ll take with me the one I like best, and at least an understanding of the others.
Yaright! Yaright. Under what bushel have you been hiding all that light? Now I am having to run around saving all your comments (well, most of them) because they are so gosh darn great!
When you are right on the mark, you are really right on the mark! See if I can’t do some learnin’ from you.
Deft with keyboard and word you are! Bravo. . .I loved it, got it, smiled at it and couldn’t wait to say thanks.
Thank you for this comment and the many you have made recently that I have taken note of. You walked in where angels fear to tread as did some others, me I tried to walk behind you brave ones and support in other ways.
As I think you will note in this diary, I have had my not so good times with at least two posters on this diary, and we successfully worked it out and became friends, the most ideal solution to any disagreement in my mind.
I have also made friends off site with some who were driven away for having opinions or views not generally agreed with and I value those friends as well.
We are a big and diverse mix of people, we are struggling to find our common bonds and somehow in the end we find it simply in our humanity.
Thanks for being on this site and thanks for joining the Village as well, I do appreciate and value you and oh so many, many others here as well.
Thanks Diane. Its encouraging to hear how you and others have gotten through the rough times here, and how it all worked out in the end.
Its a given we’re all gonna have rough times, I spose. As long as we don’t start accepting it as normal or okay, I can deal with that. The two rules of the site are priceless, but they fail to prevent conflict, there just isn’t that much guidance on how we can best deal with it and the aftermath.
Something I’ve thought, encouraged, and seen lots of people (yourself included) is “take it to email”. When you’re conflicting with someone, it seems counterintuitive to share something so private (for some) as an email address.
It might be nice if scoop had the concept of “private mail” like so many forum software packages do. It wouldn’t replace email of course, but it’d be another way the site could extend connections across the community, in private.
Well funny you should mention that, on Village Blue you do have the ability to email each other and your emails address is kept private, so you can choose to accept it or click it off. You have to be a member tho to access the contact part.
Plus on VB you can even edit your own comments, or delete them even.
If you go back in the history of this site, you will find that spats have come and gone, but many of them ending with folks just shaking hands and oft times coming to a new understanding with each other if not goooooood friends..
On first glance it appears to be good in that aspect, having differences and then mending them, but hopefully we can come to the friendship part without having to go through the pain first.
I have been thinking about words for days now, how that’s all we really have with each other are words, how they can be placed here or there and mean one thing or another, words left out leave holes unknown, words left in sometimes bring sorrow…a fine balance we strive to acheive, but sometimes fail, in our learning we grow to choose more carefully or sometimes not.
Talk about circular…..head is spinning now, need some cheesecake, where’s Catnip.
What a good thing to talk about, Diane. I have to laugh about one thing. I have a good friend who hates “process.” She wouldn’t get near a discussion like this for anything. Me, I lurve process, I roll in it like a Republican rolls in tax cats, which probably means I ought to look around and see how other people are taking it, :).
Anyhoo. . .there were moments in the past few days when I felt, yes, I wish they’d (whoever they happened to be at the time) take it outside. But that was offset by many more moments when I felt privileged to be able to watch decent people struggle to communicate heartfelt things. I didn’t envy them. God, it was hard on them! There was a moment last night when I thought I glimpsed one of them come to a moment of clarity and it was a beautiful thing to see even if maybe not many people saw it by that time. I went to bed feeling that none of the words mattered and that they were only a thin covering over big hearts.
As Oui says, you couldn’t get me out of here if you tried (Oui, I hope those aren’t Famous Last Words, don’t you?!) and what a site this is.
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Y’all help me learn and extend my knowledge daily, what should I run away from?
Creative thoughts and plenty of love to go around, hack it’s first of all a soothing experience here @BooMan’s.
I’m glad I still have my ideals in place and goals to attain: Democrats winning in 2006 and by 2008 regain WH power and a majority in either Senate or House.
Plenty of work needs to be done, lots of political activism in the short term.
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Y’all help me learn and extend my knowledge daily, what should I run away from?
I couldn’t say it better myself, which is often true of the way you phrase things. 🙂 Turns out I would only be running away from me. One of the things I’ve come to realize this year is that there’s no point for me to substitute people or things for other people or things, because it really is true, dammit!, that wherever I go, there I am. Don’t you hate it when cliches are true? But it is true! Wherever I go I’m eventually going to find the same sorts of people and/or problems until I finally go within myself to deal with the real source of stuff. Which doesn’t mean it’s not a good idea sometimes to walk away for awhile, but I hope that from now on in my life I will always come back. I have chosen this as my site and I will do my best to be faithful to it.
Is really great…until it really sucks. Much of the hard feelings over the past few days are caused by the mechanics of reading, scrolling, commenting, skipping, finding another comment to comment about etc. You said it very accurately here Diane! Sometimes taking it outside may be the best way to get the thing settled, so the pond does not overflow with ripples that become waves.
Hey, leave poor Bill alone! He actually did “take it outside” and email me directly… who’da thunk it that Bill would be the one to show us the way… 🙂
I will respond to him and hopefully get a dialogue going if possible.
Sometimes I care too much and that is my downfall. I wish I could walk away when people are pain. Ah well, c’est la vie and all.
Interesting! Come to the cafe and let us know how that goes.
Bill did? That’s awesome.
It was pretty clear he was trying to communicate, with you in particular. And in other places, his approach (1 rating every comment you made) is all too common. Thankfully we don’t use that method here (yet, still, *crosses fingers*). I’m glad someone here is giving him a chance, and for whatever reason the fact that its you makes me smile.
You know, I’m the same way. All weekend I tried to keep calm and clearheaded about things. Hearing people say they felt silenced or attacked at times in the past really bugged me. And seeing Brinnainne expressing that yesterday in near real time, really got to me.
And that partially contributed to you and I butting heads. Your caring for GDW and all he was going through, and my caring about what he was doing to Brinnaine… not that I didn’t care for GDW (and I do), or you didn’t care for Brinnaine.
Maybe things would have been better if we found ways to support the people we care about here without giving the appearance we were taking sides. A lot of people have said they stayed on the sidelines this weekend for that very reason. Perhaps there’s more than a little wisdom there.
Its rough, when you care. Isn’t it?
What I saw was a few among us who had a serious disagreement. Humans have feelings and we can’t insist on perfectly rational and intellectual behavior all the time. Someone posted a raw broad-brush harangue(imho). Some responded with raw feelings(imho). I saw repeated attempts to get past the feelings and into substance. I think that in the end, it has all worked out.
I feel that the suggestion that these members are ruining the site for the rest of us is shaming them, and I disagree with your sentiment there. If I have a problem with a public statement here, I feel that I should be free to respond in public if I so choose, feelings and all. If some are frightened by the realities of human discourse, they are free to look away from the tough parts.
Again, I differentiate what has happened here from a true flame war, just as you do. That distinction is Very Important to my stated position.
Peace be among you and with you.
Blueneck, thank you for your thoughtful comment…sorry you took my diary as shaming for some, not my intention, just a suggestion that fighting does have an affect on others and I am not talking about responding to a comment, I am talking about more intense infighting that carries on and travels through other diaries.
As Aloha I think said in a comment in this thread, you can agree to disagree after a certain point and take it off the site.
I have said before I don’t have the answers I only have the questions and I felt that this needed to be talked about because it does have an affect on other members of the site.
All in all I think these type of discussions help to clear the air.
Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I do believe that there is a time for emails, too. I just want to make it clear that I value the human discourse that has taken place. I saw no reason to force it off the site. And as it involved many different individuals, it just didn’t seem possible to me that it would be resolved through emails.
I do believe that this was a special case. I don’t know exactly why, but maybe because I could easily feel the way that each participant felt. I understood all the viewpoints, sometimes after having to think about it a bit. It helped me to see my self better and also to learn more about the human feelings of my compatriots here. And I truly felt that, while tone suffered from time to time, the goal of mutual understanding did not disappear completely. Instead, I felt that the participants were chasing each other and diarying towards one another in an attempt to get to mutual understanding and resolution.
As for shaming, I know that you would never ever ever intentionally shame anyone. I just have an incredibly well-developed, perhaps overactive, shaming-behavior radar. I won’t go into why that is the case – but I had to develop it to survive – and it has served me well for the most part. I sincerely apologize to you for overreacting.
Blueneck. . .under the circumstances. . . um. . .I felt the need to jump in here (given my newly posted comment above). I had no intention of “shaming” anyone when I wrote it – I was merely sharing observations. Oops. (I’m not apologizing for the content of my writing. . .I’m simply warning you that you might want to look away if you run across it ;^)
More importantly – have yourself a wonderful day – it’s really nice to have you here.
hey, that’s OK. Like I said, My radar works overtime. I apologize to you, too.
I do differentiate between real people dealing with truly deep issues and feelings and those types that you mentioned above, though. I guess I’m just sticking up for all of our guys and gals, because ya know, they have all earned the right to fight it out, if you ask me. I would hate to see any single one of them leave, they are all valuable to me. Even their disagreements are worthy of compassionate understanding. And as far as I can tell at this point, the dust-up, though not something I would necessarily seek or encourage, has only made us better and stronger.
Wherein I catch myself implying that celebrities aren’t “real people”……
What I meant to say was that the situations we find ourselves in here at the Pond are not contrived, hence seem a lot more “real” to me.
No need for apologies. . .you’ve certainly done nothing to warrant one. :^)
You made a very good point that I carelessly neglected to stress in my post above. The difference between the conflicts in question. Even when considered outside the context of a “reality” show, the conflicts I witnessed on the Surreal Life seemed like unnecessary drama purely for the sake of creating drama. And while that behavior obviously didn’t impact my life (other than my TV viewing pleasure) it seemed to have a very negative impact on the folks who lived in that house, surrounded by the actions of the two individuals.
In contrast, the conflicts on this site were driven by deep, heartfelt, true emotions on all sides, and clearly not for entertainment purposes.
I wish peace and prosperity to all members of this site – no matter their opinions. And I sincerely hope that all parties choose to stay.
Hey Diane…remember waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back when, you and I really disagreed about an issue but we did work it out through commenting and agreed to disagree? I believe we even emailed each other about it. For me that was good.
I am on vacation and missed the brouhaha this weekend(there is a God)but maybe when things get as heated as it sounds they did from the little I have read would be a good time for Booman to maybe step in and ask for the parties involved to email each other. I don’t know if that would work, just a thought. There are some posters(very few) here that I would not be willing to do that with.
I do have one other suggestion…let it go and move on. The more diaries that continue to be written on this the more it fans the flames. Don’t we really have more important things to do like get the crimminals out of the WH and into Gitmo? <snark>
.
I remember, you were about to send me an email thru Diane …
the Atlantic pond is big, but just drop the email in a bottle with a cork, and it should have arrived by now!
Or was the issue a neocon debate?
▼ ▼ ▼
I guess I never got around to sending you that email my friend and yes that was the time I was a little over the top…teehee. I think I had decided to just let it go back then.
Dear aloha, another of the great friends I have found through a little adversity, and now so greatly cherish.
You might note that I did not write this diary directed at particularily recent happenings but rather a general discussion related to how we approach this blogging thing. Heck it took me days to be able to say this in any congent way and I think many have wrestled with that very thing.
BTW I can think of 5 people that I have had words with on this site, oh my, that many, that I have now as friends.
But actually I did not learn the lesson of the offsite emailing here, I learned it from non other than, get ready, Armando of DK fame.
In my early days of posting on DK, I got into my first flame war with another there, on a live blog of all places where I said, what I thought was an innocent comment that enraged another and the flame went on through many comments until we were asked to remove ourselves from the discussion.
I emailed armando with my concerns never thinking to get a reply, but I did and he very wisely told me why not email the other party and talk it out, which I did, we did and therefore resolved our differences.
BTW. Aloha, you never emailed Oui? I think he is still waiting!!!!!
Love you Aloha, big hugs,,,,and if anyone feels left out big hugs to all of you.
Right back at ya Diane! Off to the beach where all is serene!! Adios
As difficult as this has to many tribbers, I too see a big difference between this episode and what I see on some other blogs, where it tends to generate flat out, mean spirited flame throwing chaos. People stuck with it. People keep trying to clarify their positions, by sharing their genuine feelings and at least trying to hear each others as best they could. Sometimes thats really hard to do in the midst of pesonal pain that gets triggered, on all sides. But I saw people trying to and I applaud that.
We’re trying to communicate here about some very hefty topics, with NO non verbal cues, which make up about 70% of effective human communication, folks. Given that fact, I think we do a pretty good job here, overall. Especially adding the factor in that we ALL carry some still-tender scar tissue, somewhere on our hides.
Almost always, I come away from these things, (when directly involved in them, I mean), having learned something valuable. Usually about me. Conflicts like this usually point me to some inner direction: to something that I’ve not yet healed up enough, some old belief about others, still exerting unconscious control over my mind, that I need to examine and change, or some part of my own life not yet in decent balance. I usually in itme come to see where my so called “opponent(s), are really teachers in disguise, and the incident was simply another life lesson, presented exactly when it was time to take it on.
There are many “processes” that operate outside our understanding. When I can remember to choose..to see the difficult ones as ultimately having a good purpose, amazingly often, thats exactly how it turns out.
I wish this for everyone involved in these difficult few days.
Diane, what a lovely diary. YOu have certainly place emphisis on the real as opposed fictional.
I agree the email is a way to resolve issues. I take issue with those who decide we all need to think their way as opposed to what we really think about issues.
I have disagreed with Pat Lang on a few of his diaries. I still enjoy reading him. He is someone after my own heart, for the most part.
Like I said the other day, my mother did not promise me a rose garden, but a rose from time to time is a good thing……
Good morning and hugs from the great state of Tennessee, where again it is overcast and still has not rained. Is chilly and am wearing more clothes today and yesterday than the summer things. Fall is here!!!!!!!!! YEA!!!!! My love to you all……
Friends in the process of growth. That’s what I saw and experienced over the past few days. The thing about growth is it most often is not so comfortable and sometimes it is downright painful. But the end result is a new and more expanded perspective, or a decision to run away from the painful parts and await another opportunity to grow. . .because it will surely come until we are willing to grow.
Some of us are “take a stand and never relinquish an inch” type of people. Some of us are “please don’t disrupt my little corner of the pond” people. Some of us are “I can’t take confrontation so I’ll run” people. Some of us are “I will always support my friends” people. Some of us are peace makers. Some of us love a good “stir them up, watch it boil, I love a good knock down drag out” people. Yet, for the most part here, we are people that want to understand and support each other and use our energies to craft and mold a means to make our community and our country a better place. It takes all of us to do that.
I love what I have seen in this diary today. A lot of introspection. Something I do continually, probably more than any of you (Okay, I don’t know that, but ya gotta be the best at something, eh?)
I have always assumed the role of peacemaker, even as a small child. It was the only thing that made me feel safe, and I needed to feel safe. I have had to learn over the years to “fight” because it was something so distasteful and scary to me I had no stomach for it. I learned in the course of things to be just as big an asshole, at times, as the next person. I always hated it and I always was able to quickly apologize for my behavior. It was never worth it. So then I have learned in the next phase how useless and unproductive “fighting” is.
The need to be right (about anything) is an ego problem. Even when you are sure your facts are correct and you position defensible, you will never convince someone with a determined opposing view to your side because they need to be right too. That’s when the “we agree to disagree” choice is invaluable.
Most of you know that Diane and I have become very close friends since meeting up on Booman. It is an extraordinary friendship, and we care very deeply about each other. We have had some really heated discussions, usually on the phone, and there are times we just have to agree to disagree on a particular point, and we always end up laughing about it. I am far too Liberal bleeding heart to her more moderate liberalism in our political thought. And she is far left of the Democratic Party’s current stance. . .so you get a bit of an idea of how far out I am! LOL
There has been a lot of growth going on the past few days, among a lot of people on the site. That is a good thing! There will be other opportunities for growth. I am always encouraged after one of these growth spurts to know that this community will survive very nicely because of the character and quality of those who participate here.
I raise my cup to the finest collection of friends and new acquaintances I have ever known! Bravo! You all are an amazing group with the biggest hearts and the smartest intellects I have ever known!
I heart you all!!
Hugs and more hugs to each of you
Shirl
(yes, I know, Diane. . .my comment is longer than your diary. . .LOL. . .somethings just don’t change that easily)
Thanks Shirley Whirley…..I have just one thing to add, ‘maybe it takes a Village, as in Blue’ the “town the FBC lives in”,….I swear!.
I think you are right about that. Any of you that haven’t yet visited VILLAGE BLUE, which is the town that is an extension of BMT, I would really like to invite you all to come on over for a visit. It is a different place, beautiful to the eyes and spirit, where rest and fun can be had by all.
You can comment without being a member, but we would love you all to become members if you like, there are no ratings and there are no wars over there. It is a very restful spot, especially when the rest of what is going on in the world just gets to be too much. All of you are invited to be front page posters on any topic you wish. . .just not so much politics, as we feel Booman Trib is the best place to do that. There is a link back to BMT so it is easy to jump back and forth.
Come on over and visit us. . .we would love to have you!
The active link is in my signature line. Just give it a click
Humility is the answer. When one is humble you do not immediately assume you know all the truth or that the other person is completely ignorant.
I went to great lengths, trouble and expense to bring you this lemon verbena cheesecake, enjoy!
And here is a cup of coffee with a newspaper for your perusal as you partake!
Coffee and cream off to the side.
correction, here, that is a cuppa tea, of your choice of course, had to go back and look at your order, oh dear I hope this doesn’t mean no tip.
Thanks! I left my two cents worth as a tip. 🙂
I’m stingy.
I still haven’t managed to catch up on everything that went down here. I did read through most of the original diary and comments that set this off, but have yet to read through your two follow ups along with others, Diane.
(I had a Thanksgiving dinner for 12 on Sunday and that just wore me out. I’m still recovering. I actually slept til 11 this morning – which is very unusual for me. My brain is not yet back to functioning at full capacity – well as full as that capacity gets…)
I’ll say this though: I am not discouraged by what happened. The topic at hand, responsibility for the Iraq war, is extremely sensitive – especially since we on the left often wear our hearts on our sleeves. Tension is to be expected but one thing I don’t tolerate is personal attacks. Tolerance ends where abuse begins.
We’ve come through it – some with battle scars. Any remnants will hopefully worked out by those involved. The blog survives. We all learned something and we carry on. We need to remember to discuss facts, not people’s personalities. I feel for gdw who has been seriously affected by what happened because I have PTSD and understand how that can affect someone. It takes one to an unreal place that is very difficult to deal with. I hope there can be some understanding here about that.
I don’t know that we need to keep discussing this since there has already been ample oportunity to do so, but I would never suggest stifling healing in the name of “getting on with it”. I do think we’ve collectively begun to move on and that’s what’s important. I may not agree with some individuals’ opinions but that’s okay. That’s what growth is all about. I’m here to learn and knowledge often comes for uncomfortable places.
That’s it for now. Thanks for asking for my 2 cents worth.
It’s the turkey after effect, the typtrophane(sp) that lulls you.
Thank you for your thoughtful remarks, very on point as always Catnip, so I think your brain is functioning quite well. I always appreciate your take on things and agree with most of them, in fact you often give voice to ramblings in my own brain.
And thanks for the 2 cents worth tip….lol…
BTW anyone know what happened to the cents key, on keyboards, didn’t there used to be one. No degree symbol anymore either.
How’s the cheesecake!!!!
Someone made the great point above (amongst many others) that human communication is at least 70% non-verbal, so in terms of our species, what we are attempting to do here is very difficult. By that measure, Booman Tribbers achieve truly spectacular results on a daily basis.
What I sometimes think about too is that writing encourages left hemisphere dominance of our brains – the side that is linear, analytical, dogmatic, abstract, non-intuitive, “logical” – for a wonderful treatise on this, read the first few chapters of The Alphabet versus the Goddess:the conflict between word and image by Leonard Schlain. In other words, using writing emphasises the parts of us that are least adept (ironically) at truly empathetic and human communication, in conjunction with the most linear, dogmatic parts of us. Horrors! No wonder trying to communicate via writing over the internet leads to so many heated discussions – ones that you intuitively know that many would be easily resolved if the people involved could sit next to each other and just talk.
Our western culture has taught us – no, indoctrinated us – to prize “objective” (no such thing, ask Einstein), “logical” and detached “reasoning” above all. It has inculcated us with Cartesian Dualism (damn you, Descartes) – yes/no. black/white, enemy/friend, right/wrong. Yet the tool we weild, language, especially the english language, is the most nuanced communications tool ever evolved (to our knowledge).
Is it any wonder we fight? And little wonder we all hate it so.
But the topics that have been discussed, and yes, fought over here, are absolutely, critically, fundamentallly important. We simply cannot afford to avoid them, to force people to self-censor, to avoid. I’m not sure we can even afford to have a defacto policy of “take it outside” – as long as the disagreement is one of substance, not ad hominem.
So I think we need to think carefully about how to reinsert our own and other’s humanity into this site.
Much of the recent arguments has been about people feeling that the humanity, and the basic rights that go with that status, are being denied to American troops through statements lashing out at the systemic problems inherent at present. Yet, as I have tried to point out, there are few voices even here that give voice and demand the same rights for the individual humanity of Iraqi insurgents, Iraqis in general, and yes, even terrorists (however we can best define that group these days).
I would never deny the valididty of criticising and lashing out at the systemic problems inherent in all of those groups I’ve just named, but I do see a profound injustice, in terms of there being no voice to speak for their individual humanity. There are plenty here to speak for it on behalf of American troops and westerners in general.
We must continue to discuss these issues. They are absolutely fundamental if we are to work together, as liberals passionate about achieving a more just, peaceful, sustainable world for all. We must continue to discuss them, and reach through the anger and the pain and hurt to try and understand each other, to work together to broker the change that will bring about, we hope, we pray, the paradigm shift that will transform this world.
So my suggestion at this point is very simple. Stick to facts when you can, but don’t become one of those assholes who demands 32 credible internet links for some fact someone else puts up; acknowledge when something is an opinion of yours, not necessarily ‘fact’ – it doesn’t make it any less valid on a site like this. Don’t speak for groups, or make large emotive assumptions – either positive (“American soldiers are noble”) or negative (“American soldiers are moronic automatons”) – these are statements of emotion, not reality. Acknowledge them as such.
Use emotion to speak for yourself, and on behalf of the voiceless, not by altering your tone of address, but try actually stating it. “I am terribly hurt and angry when I see innocent Iraqi children murdered, and no-one to speak for them” – is a rather contrived example.
Here are some real ones from me:
I am so hurt for spiderleaf, who is obviously so hurt herself.
I am hurt for Stu Piddy, who’s anger is so raw and I I understand why, and I am worried (s)he will self-censor or feel unwelcome here
I am worried that our collective sensitivities as a result of the “wars” over at Dkos are making us blow this issue up bigger than it is – but I’m also pretty hopeful that we can resolve it.
Thanks for the topic and the role you are playing, Diane.
Imogen
Off topic, but on the lighter side, from a Democrats.com e-mail:
Q: How many Bush Administration officials does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A: None. There is nothing wrong with the light bulb; its conditions are improving every day. Any reports of its lack of incandescence are a delusional spin from the liberal media. That light bulb has served honorably, and anything you say undermines the lighting effect. Why do you hate freedom?
Good night and bless you all!
Why did the chicken cross the road?
MOSES: And God came down from the Heavens, and He said unto the chicken, “Thou shalt cross the road.” And the chicken crossed the road, and there was much rejoicing.
MOHAMMAD: If the chicken crosses a road, surely there is a lesson there for those with eyes to see.
JESUS: Verily I say unto thee, “Behold the chicken that crosseth a road, what gaineth he? Did not my Father in Heaven make also the other side?”
MARTIN LUTHER KING, JR.: I envision a world where all chickens will be free to cross roads without having their motives called into question.
BUDDHA: The chicken became one with the road, he transcended it.
GRANDPA: In my day, we didn’t ask why the chicken crossed the road. Someone told us that the chicken crossed and that was good enough for us.
THE C.I.A: Who told you about the chicken? Did you see the chicken? There was no chicken. Please step into the car.
ANDERSEN CONSULTING: Deregulation of the chicken’s side of the road was threatening its dominant market position. The chicken was faced with significant challenges to create and develop the competencies required for the newly competitive market. Andersen Consulting, in a partnering relationship with the client, helped the chicken by rethinking its physical distribution strategy and implementation processes. Using the Poultry Integration Model(PIM), Andersen helped the chicken use its skills,methodologies, knowledge,capital and experiences to align the chicken’s people, processes and technology in support of its overall strategy within a Program Management framework. Andersen Consulting convened a diverse cross-spectrum of road analysts and best chickens along with Anderson consultants with deep skills in the transportation industry to engage in a two-day itinerary of meetings in order to leverage their personal knowledge capital, both tacit and explicit, and to enable them to synergize with each other in order to achieve the implicit goals of delivering and successfully architecting and implementing an enterprise-wide value framework across the continuum of poultry cross-median processes. The meeting was held in a park-like setting, enabling and creating an impactful environment which was strategically based, industry-focused, and built upon a consistent,clear, and unified market message and aligned with the chicken’s mission, vision,and core values. This was conducive towards the creation of a total business integration solution. Andersen Consulting helped the chicken change to become more successful.
GEORGE BUSH: I’ll tell you why he crossed the road. It’s because he hates freedom. And let me tell you something else. He can cross the road, but he can’t hide, because Americans are resolved, and we will bring that chicken to justice.
DONALD RUMSFELD: He probably crossed the road because the coalition was bombing him. It’s a war. That’s what happens in a war. Chickens get bombed.
ARIEL SHARON: That chicken crossed the woad to plan tewworist attacks on the Iswaeli people! Fortunately, we were able to stop him and we wegwet any loss of civilian life which may have occuwwed as a wesult of this militawy opewation.
AARON BROWN: Whenever we hear stories like this, of a chicken alleged to have crossed a road, it affects us all. Oh, we may pretend that we are not afraid, that things like that just. don’t. happen. here. But for the chicken, and perhaps, in some strange way, for the road itself, there is pain, and there are questions. We tried to contact the chicken, but our calls were not returned.
The Aaron Brown segment was perfect, LMAO! I could hear him narrating it.
I can’t claim the rest of them.