Let me be very clear: I do not believe in conspiracies, mainly due to the fact that conspiracy theories do not take into account that the only secret is the one kept by one person. If something like this report took place, it would take lot’s of logistics and support personnel to carry out. Since I firmly believe that people in our intelligence organs, the professionals, truly believe in protecting our country, such a conspiracy would produce whistle-blowers in the chain of people with the need-to-know. That is why this study puzzles me and I do not know what to make of it. Below the fold:
Y. professor thinks bombs, not planes, toppled WTC
By Elaine Jarvik
Deseret Morning News
The physics of 9/11 — including how fast and symmetrically one of the World Trade Center buildings fell — prove that official explanations of the collapses are wrong, says a Brigham Young University physics professor.
In fact, it’s likely that there were “pre-positioned explosives” in all three buildings at ground zero, says Steven E. Jones.
In a paper posted online Tuesday and accepted for peer-reviewed publication next year, Jones adds his voice to those of previous skeptics, including the authors of the Web site www.wtc7.net, whose research Jones quotes. Jones’ article can be found at www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html.
Now here is an academic physics professor putting his academic reputation on the line. BYU is a respectible institution of higher learning, but this professor sets out many points in his argument:
* The three buildings collapsed nearly symmetrically, falling down into their footprints, a phenomenon associated with “controlled demolition” — and even then it’s very difficult, he says. “Why would terrorists undertake straight-down collapses of WTC-7 and the Towers when ‘toppling over’ falls would require much less work and would do much more damage in downtown Manhattan?” Jones asks. “And where would they obtain the necessary skills and access to the buildings for a symmetrical implosion anyway? The ‘symmetry data’ emphasized here, along with other data, provide strong evidence for an ‘inside’ job.”
* No steel-frame building, before or after the WTC buildings, has ever collapsed due to fire. But explosives can effectively sever steel columns, he says.
* WTC 7, which was not hit by hijacked planes, collapsed in 6.6 seconds, just .6 of a second longer than it would take an object dropped from the roof to hit the ground. “Where is the delay that must be expected due to conservation of momentum, one of the foundational laws of physics?” he asks. “That is, as upper-falling floors strike lower floors — and intact steel support columns — the fall must be significantly impeded by the impacted mass. . . . How do the upper floors fall so quickly, then, and still conserve momentum in the collapsing buildings?” The paradox, he says, “is easily resolved by the explosive demolition hypothesis, whereby explosives quickly removed lower-floor material, including steel support columns, and allow near free-fall-speed collapses.” These observations were not analyzed by FEMA, NIST nor the 9/11 Commission, he says.
* With non-explosive-caused collapse there would typically be a piling up of shattering concrete. But most of the material in the towers was converted to flour-like powder while the buildings were falling, he says. “How can we understand this strange behavior, without explosives? Remarkable, amazing — and demanding scrutiny since the U.S. government-funded reports failed to analyze this phenomenon.”
* Horizontal puffs of smoke, known as squibs, were observed proceeding up the side the building, a phenomenon common when pre-positioned explosives are used to demolish buildings, he says.
* Steel supports were “partly evaporated,” but it would require temperatures near 5,000 degrees Fahrenheit to evaporate steel — and neither office materials nor diesel fuel can generate temperatures that hot. Fires caused by jet fuel from the hijacked planes lasted at most a few minutes, and office material fires would burn out within about 20 minutes in any given location, he says.
* Molten metal found in the debris of the World Trade Center may have been the result of a high-temperature reaction of a commonly used explosive such as thermite, he says. Buildings not felled by explosives “have insufficient directed energy to result in melting of large quantities of metal,” Jones says.
* Multiple loud explosions in rapid sequence were reported by numerous observers in and near the towers, and these explosions occurred far below the region where the planes struck, he says.
Jones says he became interested in the physics of the WTC collapse after attending a talk last spring given by a woman who had had a near-death experience. The woman mentioned in passing that “if you think the World Trade Center buildings came down just due to fire, you have a lot of surprises ahead of you,” Jones remembers, at which point “everyone around me started applauding.”
To me, this is simply implausible because of the reasons I said I do not believe in conspiracy theories. Nevertheless, to a layman, these arguments seem sound and perhaps worth investigating further. I am truly puzzled. Perhaps Pat Lang may intercede here and substantiate my doubts that this could have happened within our intelligence community and reinforce my point of view. Otherwise, this is troubling as it offers not tin-foil theories but actual laws of physics. At least the good doctor offered a disclaimer:
As for speculation about who might have planted the explosives, Jones said, “I don’t usually go there. There’s no point in doing that until we do the scientific investigation.”
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I would have no idea how else a tall building would fall, when its structure fails at plane impact area and the mass of the top stories drops through all stories below. Only puzzle remains for building № 7 – you tell me.
No time for conspiracies, for every rule there is an exception, mainly assassinations from JFK – RFK – MLK to Hariri in Beirut today.
Cheers.
“Treason doth never prosper: what’s the reason?
For if it prosper, none dare call it treason.”
▼ ▼ ▼ MY DIARY
My instinct exactly Oui. But backing it up with physics puts questions in the mind, no?
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Loved the sciences and calculus, so I studied engineering. I have come across many mad and crazy scientists, genius and madness are kinda close cousins.
I have looked at the geophysical claims of registered earth tremors of plane impact, explosions and WTC tower collapse. All graphs looked absolutely convincing, until the original geophysicist debunked the claims. But building № 7 I wouldn’t bet my house on the collapse or it being “pulled”.
WTC Building № 7
It is fun though for weekend reading when no indictments are expected!
“Treason doth never prosper: what’s the reason?
For if it prosper, none dare call it treason.”
▼ ▼ ▼ MY DIARY
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Didn’t appreciate special symbol in title :: βeta Man!
“Treason doth never prosper: what’s the reason?
For if it prosper, none dare call it treason.”
▼ ▼ ▼ MY DIARY
Hmmm, thanks for the graphics. I really wouldn’t know anything in this area, I’m more of a Goethe and Schiller person – literature is my specialty, but we have our crazies too. Perhaps this should be more investigated. Though I am a sceptic until proof is provided, this looks kinda fishy – if so, God help us all.
The short answer to this question is that if it was a structural failure as claimed in official reports, there would have been action-reaction sequences as the inital floor structure and subsequent floor structures failed. That would cause a time lapse for each structural failure at least in the initial part of the structural failure of the floor supports as claimed in the ‘pancaking theory’.
The actual speed of #7 was .6 of a second slower than a straight free fall, or something to that effect.
what does that mean to a layman like myself? Is there stock in this theory or not? Really curious here.
There’s way more evidence that this but this is just another of the ‘defies common sense’ arguments the official versions have.
It’s claimed that the towers fell straight down because the structural steel failed, mainly at the floors of impact, and the weight of the upper floors caused a chain reaction collapse downward, in a pancaking effect.
That claim maintains that each floor failed in a series of collapse/weight/collaps/weight/collapse…instead of all floors failing/collapsing simultaneously.
Thanks for the explanation
Another part of that is the official claim that the steel failed because certain sections of fireprooing was knocked off during impact. The claim is the fire was so intense at these coincidental places that the steel weakened and gave way. Other studies dispute much of this by analysis but by the official claim it would have been a slow, awkward crubling failure with larger debris and a more lateral area of debris falling.
If you swing a hammer at an empty cardboard box, does it pause when it hits the surface?
X-post from Eurotrib —
The central argument behind this conspiracy theory is the unlikelihood of a symmetric collapse absent well-placed, simultaneously exploding demolition charges. This argument would be pretty silly if the collapse were strikingly asymmetric.
In fact, however, if you look at the video of the first collapse, it is grossly asymmetric: As seen in this video, the chunk of the building above the fire rotates counter-clockwise as it falls, turning by about 20 degrees before it disappears into the smoke. No careful demolition was needed to produce such a sloppy result.
Now notice that it falls essentially straight down — if you watch the base of the chunk you’ll see that it moves about as far to the right as the top moves to the left. It is turning around its center, not toppling to one side from its base. Why is this? Because there is nothing pushing it strongly to one side or the other. The pillars on the right that lasted a bit longer were pushing up; this gave the chunk some angular momentum, but not much of the linear momentum needed to move it’s center of gravity to one side.
After that, the falling chunk of the building smashes the lower parts straight down. Again, there is nothing to push stuff to one side or the other, so the overall collapse is nearly symmetric.
This is enough to show that the good professor isn’t a very good physicist, or even a very good observer of videos of the event that he has labored to understand. Accordingly, I wouldn’t place much stock in the rest of what he says, either in the alleged facts or in the analysis. Save this piece of tin foil for lining pans.
-One in a series of technical notes on political issues by Technopolitical-
Soon after 9-11, when we all began to break out of collective shock return to our senses, several of my close, sane, intelligent friends began to suggest that the US government was behind the whole thing. I was disgusted. As I’ve said before, I was raised to question the actions of our govt., and I’ve never been terribly “patriotic.” Not in the usual sense.
But I thought these friends were being rather flippant and disrespectful of the lives lost. And I was concerned by their paranoid sense of reality. I just couldn’t take them seriously. I mean, if our own govt. could do that, they were capable of anything. How could a person sleep at night if they thought the very people who were supposed to be, at the bare minimum, protecting this country were actually out to harm us? Not in some systematicly oppressive way, not as a result of incompetency, not just a little here and there. We are talking about our own leaders waging war on us. Sheesh. The America I know might have problems, but it isn’t completely insane…
4 years later I don’t know. The fact they they may have done it is equally as digestable as the fact that a group of 19 Saudi civilians did it. Hell, the fact that the President received a memo stating, “Bin Ladin determined to attack in the United States” and ignored it is as incomprehesible as anything to me. So many unanswered questions…
We may never have all the answers. But there has been a paradigm shift that has at the very least, allowed a significant portion on the population to consider it plausible that an attack on the people of this country was orchestrated by our own govt. Faith has been lost. Our institutions have failed us. Because regardless who organized the attacks, they’ve used the tragedy for their own nefarious ends. That we know. And I think that might be more significant than knowing how those buildings came down.
I don’t know. As I said on Eurotribe, I simply don’t know. It seems inconceivable that it could be an inside job. Yet this prof has a peer-reviewed article on it coming out next year. I’ve always been a sceptic, except in the face of proof – is this proof. Again, I just don’t know.
There’s a lot of 9/11 things that don’t seem to add up.
I’m usually not a member of the tin-foil hat brigade, but there are so many questions that have not been adequately answered. It adds up to only two things, either incompetence on a grand scale or an active plan to let the terrorists succeed and then reap the political benefits.
I’m almost always a skeptic so I would love to have these and many other questions answered, but until that point I’m inclined to believe the offical story is covering something up.
More ‘random coincidences’ are appearing as time passes. These could all be nothing more than coincidence and their mention here is nothing more a speculation. If we could get honest answers from the government then most of us would stop looking for better explanations.
From http://summeroftruth.org/atta2.html
This is particularly notable because CIA officials have testified under oath to Congress and the 9/11 Commission that the agency did not pass on information it had about the arrival in the US on January 15 2000 of al-Hazmi and al-Midhar.
The then commander of the CIA Counter-Terrorism Center (CTC), Cofer Black, testified that his unit had simply overlooked the entry of the Flight 77 hijackers. In fact, the head of CIA counter-terrorism ordered an FBI liaison officer to withhold a cable notifying the Bureau's counterterrorism unit in New York of that entry by known terrorists, after they returned from a CIA-monitored al-Qaeda planning summit in Kuala Lumpur where both the 9/11 attack and the bombing of the USS Cole were discussed. See, Perjury by CIA Counterterrorism
Center Director - the Blocked Memo,
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/6/10/105125/910 ; also, see:
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-te ...
…and also more recently…
At a joint hearing of the House and Senate intelligence committees on September 26, 2002, Cofer Black, then the head of the Counterterrorism Center at CIA, emphasized the need for "operational flexibility," adding that intelligence operatives cannot be held to the "old" standards. Addressing interrogation, Black said:
This is a highly classified area, but I have to say that all you need to know: there was a before-9/11 and an after-9/11. After 9/11 the gloves came off.
There is fresh evidence that within days of 9/11, Bush and Cheney told then-CIA director George Tenet to set CIA interrogators free from the customary restrictions. In her November 2 article on the mini-gulag system of secret CIA-operated prisons overseas, Dana Priest reported that on September 17 - that is, the day after Cheney's comment on NBC about working "the dark-side" - Bush signed a secret "finding" giving the CIA broad authorization to disrupt terrorist activity, including permission to kill, capture, and detain al-Qaeda members anywhere in the world.
truthout - Ray McGovern | Torture in Our Name
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If anyone is interested, there are good resources on the strange inconsistencies in the details of all 4 passenger lists as compared to the official story and especially odd in the number of insurance/other claims that have gone unclaimed.
I think it’s necessary to view these possibilities as the action of a collection of small groups comprised of varied interests in several different areas of International governments and private industry. I believe the US govt had a part but not as a sanctioned act. It was the major employer of some of these rogue groups.
Global interests, global economy, global motives.
Agreed 100%.
This also answers the typical anti-conspiracy theorist’s biggest objection, namely so many people would have been in on it, so why didn’t anyone blow the whistle?
The answer is if this was a highly decentralized, global operation, the right hand didn’t know what the left hand was doing. Everyone was doing their job, but they didn’t know why they were doing that particular piece. And I’m sure they were employed by people you really wouldn’t want to doublecross, hence no whistleblower. Who exactly were they going to blow the whistle to, anyway? The US gov’t? The CIA?
Hell, I’m even inclined to believe that the WH wasn’t wholly in on the entire plot. Something about that day spooked (at least) Bush, how else do you explain the flying around on Air Force One, and hiding out in secret bunkers?
It’s classic compartamentalization of information.
I don’t lend too much credence to “controlled” demo of WTC 1 and 2, that’s a little too fantastic (though as Oui points out, WTC7 is a bit of a mystery). But, there may have been thermite invovled in the basement, to sort of help things along a bit. And without any evidence to substantiate or disprove claims thanks to the rapid removal of debris, all we’ve got left is speculation.
I don’t think GWB had specific knowledge of events but that he had been aware that ‘an event’ would take place that was not in his realm of authority to prevent. He was on a need to know basis and he didn’t need to know.
I think that controlled demo of the towers happened, for several reasons, but also that it was a big surprise to almost everyone involved. It had to be or else the responses wouldn’t have been credible.
I think it was a combination of small ‘conspricies’, combined with the opportunistic exploitation of advance knowlege of this by other groups. I also think that the intel agencies were, for the most part, doing their job but political/economic interests interfered with that and then again blocked the uncovering of information afterward. For instance- The awareness of the hijackers and awareness of their movements in the US right up to the attack can be attributed to them being monitored by intel agencies. Other coincidences or failures can be explained by having informants who flipped and were working in these cells. I also believe they have a long history of condoned illegal trafficking to finance covert intelligence activities worldwide.
Mostly, the hijackers were useful idiots or pawns and runners. I think they were set up to pull this off as a simple hijacking and probably none of them knew it was going to be a suicide mission.
Another group who had come into the knowlege of this would think it’s a perfect chance to take care of some other problems at the same time. The logistics of demolition of the WTC to build new or even to get out from under the tremendous maintenance and other liabilities is worth billions. If that entity was not involved before this point their cooperation wouldn’t be hard to secure.
The charges for demolition could have been placed well in advance through the guise of maint. and actually, the upper floors had been closed for new wiring a few periods of time right before 9/11 The proliferation of skilled professionals in the private sector and in govt would be plenty to choose from. It could even have been set up as a demo but under sealed contract with fines so high or legal liability or a number of other reasons that would prevent anyone from talking about it. I can imagine there could even be the arrogance of criminal genius that’s been slowly dying in silence because he can’t take credit.
So, that’s just a start but it gets really interesting when it gets to the remote control guidance the hijackers-pilots-crew-passengers had no idea about. The pinpoint GPS accuracy that hit Cantor Fitzgerald and the luck of all the incriminating evidence it destroyed from bond fraud that was coming due on 9/12 and had ties to previous administrations…..
So there is a Cantor Fitzgerald connection? Can you point me to where I might learn more on that?
It is just impossible for me to believe that virtually the entire Cantor Fitzgerald workforce is wiped out (an entire floor, no less), and yet we hear reports of people from the Top of the World making it out alive, to say nothing of the countless other firms that mostly made it out relatively unscathed. That always smelled fishy to me, even before I came to believe there were inside components to 9/11.
And whatever happened to the president of Cantor Fitzgerald? I remember his crying on the networks for his employees (he was conveniently not at the office that day), could those really have been crocodile tears?
Thanks for the insight, rumi, you’re a deep well of information.
with the comfort level of mainstream US demographic.
When evildoers hate freedom enough, this can cause things to happen that might under any other conditions, be scientifically, logistically, logically, or otherwise impossible.
Everyone knows that the towers were destroyed by Saddam Hussein and thousands of Afghan children. Oh, and Syria. And France probably knew about it. Or if they didn’t actually know, they guessed.
Actually, it was an experiment between The Amazing Kreskin and Uri Geller on bending steel girders using the powers of the mind, gone tragically awry.
I read it myself in the National Enquirer.
And didn’t one of those reporters there get Anthrax mailed to him shortly after 9/11?
See, it all fits together.
That would be Bob Stevens a photo editor at at American Media/ Sun tabloid. There was mention that authorities waited before notifying him of exposure. The wife of a fellow editor there had rented an apartment to 2 of the hijackers and from another article
The conspiracy fuel would be found in trivia like this..
23. Curiously, and little reported by the media, the first of the half-dozen fatalities in the October 2001 anthrax attacks was a tabloid newspaper photo editor from Florida, Robert Stevens. While most Americans probably believe to this day that these anthrax attacks were the deeds of radical Islamists - notwithstanding that all evidence points to domestic sources - whom had Mr. Stevens offended? The answer is that he had offended the Bush family, by selecting for publication in the supermarket tabloid that employed him an embarrassing photograph of the President's daughter, Jenna Bush, appearing tipsy and holding a cigarette, while staggering across a dance floor with a female friend in a nightclub.
RICO Complaint 3
When evildoers hate freedom enough, this can cause things to happen that might under any other conditions, be scientifically, logistically, logically, or otherwise impossible.
This is exactly what pisses me off about the interview with McCain on one of the news channels as the Jordan story was breaking.
The 9/11 evildoers hated Cantor Fitzgerald especially.
Some thoughts:
I’m a chemist, not a physicist or structural engineer, so the kind of idea that pops into my head reading this is the following:
If the buildings were brought down by chemical high explosives, there should be some chemically measurable residue somewhere in the wreckage and debris from 9/11. Modern instrumental techniques can detect such compounds at the parts per million – and probably parts per billion – levels. Even if the government doesn’t allow access to the landfill with 9/11 debris, I’m sure there are folks that kept “mementos” found along the streets that could be tested, or whose apartments still have 9/11 dust, or whose clothes might still have dust.
The EPA might still have some of their air samples, although I doubt they’d provide them for testing. A look at the raw analytical data might reveal if such compounds were found, but EPA no longer provides raw data in response to FOIA requests (a policy change that happened under Bush I, I believe).
As far as the near-death experience, that makes me doubtful; it smacks too much of urban legends.
As far as the squibs (multiple puffs of smoke) and explosive sounds, if the entire weight of the upper stories were suddenly dropped onto the underlying supports, that force / load would propagate almost instantaneously down the building, even though it would take longer for the building itself to “pancake.” That initial load would result in compression, perhaps enough to force the windows and/or facing on the building on multiple floors to break and explode outward in a manner that would to the naked eye resemble the puffs you get from a controlled implosion.
Am I saying this is what happened? No, because I’m not an expert in the field, and I don’t have any data to either prove or disprove it. But it seems possible, and doesn’t required the many additional assumptions that a conspiracy to place explosives around the buildings and getting away with it with no leaks requires (I agree with you that postulating that such a conspiracy still is intact is a strike against this idea).
A quibble, but possibly telling (again, as a chemist I noticed this) – he says the following:
Thermite is not an explosive. Thermite is a mixture of finely divided aluminum metal and iron oxide (essentially rust powder) that when heated sufficiently (burning magnesium, as in a flare, works well) starts a chemical reaction that turns the ingredients into aluminum oxide (a white powder that sometimes can be seen on lawn furniture left out in the weather for long periods) and molten iron metal. It was used during the 19th century construction of the railroads to weld the lengths of rail together. I used it in college chemistry department “magic shows” – it’s a perfectly safe mix at room temperature.
Without doing a bunch of calculations that I’d have to get my old textbooks out to do, I think you’d need a lot of thermite around a steel girder to heat it enough to soften it to the point that the steel would give way and start the “pancaking.” And thermite wouldn’t necessarily cause the extensive melting – it was used for spot-welding of rails, after all. Besides, the fires that raged for days in the debris of the towers could have caused the molten steel – ooops, he claims a standard fire can’t melt steel. I’d like to see what some experts on fire destruction in collapsed buildings have to say about that.
The fact that he’s a BYU physics professor doesn’t make him more of an expert on structural engineering and building implosions / collapse than anyone else. Just look at the botany professors and the like that support intelligent design.
He could be right, none of us can know from a press report and blog discussion, but, as Carl Sagan said: “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.”
That is exactly what I was looking for. Unlike a few other post, an academic debunking of this conspiracy theory. I can see that you could challenge this prof at a conference. You effectively laid his claims open to question. I’ve experience with thermite grenades, we’d duck-tape them to the commo sergeants rucksack so that if we had to drop our rucks and run, the thermite grenade would destroy not only the sensitive CEOI but also the commo equipment (radios, satellite commo equipment) in the rucksack as well. Dangerous thing being a communication sergeant!
I’m not qualified to get up in public and debate this subject. But neither is he. I’m just making a few observations from what I do know in certain (limited) areas. If I said more than the above I’d be “talking out my paper asshole” as they used to say in Philly.
I won’t comment on the BYU professor in that regard as I don’t know enough to say for sure. ;-D
I think you might be confusing the claims. I don’t believe the author claimed the thermite use to produce a fire in order to melt and weaken the steel. Any controlled demolition would (I assume) include explosive severing of the steel (as reported by witnesses) and it also explains the short sections of scrap found in the debris. The core design of the WTC incorporated massive steel coluns and yet no piece longer than 30′, coincidently the right size for transport out, was found. The ends were reported to have the appearance of clean cuts.
Here is a reference to the hot spots and evidence of molten steel
EXAMINING THE HEAT OF GROUND ZERO
Five days after the collapse, on September 16, the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) used an Airborne Visible/Infrared Imaging Spectrometer (AVIRIS) to locate and measure the site's hot spots.
http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2001/ofr-01-0429/thermal.r09.html
Dozens of hot spots were mapped. The hottest spots at the surface of the rubble, where abundant oxygen was available, showed a temperature of 1377° F (747° C). This is, however, less than half as hot at the molten steel in the basement.
Construction steel has an extremely high melting point of about 2,800° Fahrenheit (1535° Celsius). Kerosene-based jet fuel, paper, or the other combustibles normally found in the towers, cannot generate this much heat, especially in an oxygen-poor environment like a deep basement.
It should be noted that one of the few things capable of producing such extreme temperatures in these conditions is thermite, a chemical compound used in demolition explosives.
Just for clarification, I’m not claiming a conspiracy theory to explain the inconsistent or illogical evidence that’s claimed in the official story.
I think maybe I was mistaken or confused on some of these claims concerning the thermite. I assumed it was claimed to have been used in upper areas of the building and I wasn’t as familiar with the claims of it, and it’s properties used primarily as an example of a product that could be used. I like the learning experience that comes with questioning illogical explanations.
For what it’s worth, here is a sample of part of the conspiracist’s, for lack of a better word, analysis of that product’s possibility. I can easily admit it’s effort and beauty are wasted on my limits of understanding.
I’m curious now as to how much of that product would be required and the time frame for it to burn through or weaken that steel. I still think there were conflicting reports between FEMA and the official version on the existence/condition of molten steel as a result of the jet fuel causing the steel to melt near the base in the area of the elevator shafts.
I do remember multiple references of several floors above and below the impact floor being closed at times (mostly weekends-after hours- a few for days during the work week) for renovation/maintenance in the weeks before 9/11. It would make sense that a variety of products and systems would be utilized to avoid suspicion if sets were revealed in more than one area. It’s also logical to assume that any devices set in advance could have been done behind and/or above finished areas of the building to avoid detection.
This is precisely what the official enquiry did not do.
How do you get all three of those buildings simply collapsing onto themselves — using logic? I don’t get it.
Have you seen the video of Tower 7 collapsing? That makes sense in ANY world without timed explosives? I mean it’s not tinker toys… it’s a massive building, varied materials in it. HOW could it all have tidily whooshed down like that?
That is all.
Your eyes tell you one thing (impossible without explosives). Where you go from there, is beyond me, no theories as to who, why, etc.
There are two sound recordings (one with video) recorded in the immediate aftermath of the two towers’ collapse of emergency personnel talking about ‘pulling’ Building 7. To ‘pull it’ means controlled demolition, in contractor parlance.
Building 7 housed Secret Service records, among other things.
As with all conspiracy theories, the facts get interwoven with conjecture – some of it crazy. The existence of fantasy does not invalidate the facts – few though they may be.
THEREFORE, an independent scientific investigation, as the Brigham Prof proposes, would seem essential.
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the pond at BooMan’s Place today.
The girl frogs were restless recently, expressing their desire to see your presence here.
You are forewarned!
“Treason doth never prosper: what’s the reason?
For if it prosper, none dare call it treason.”
▼▼▼ READ MY DIARY
Oui…
The book goes for printing tomorrow i.e. one all-consuming project completed. Sadly another begins tomorrow – but that will only take a week.
Oui, pls spray some extra pheromones around on my behalf <;-)
The whole Center was built on interconnecting sublevels and basements. I wonder if building seven collapsed quickly because the ‘rug’ was pulled out from under it by the collapse of a few stories BELOW ground.
As far as high temperatures in the basement, etc. PRESSURE has it’s effects on a material’s heat. The movement of stuff also creates heat, especially directly under a giant, falling building. Not quite fission, but some serious additional heat.
I agree the folks who benefitted most from this attack, at least directly and financially, were the owners and leaseholders of empty and unprofitable office space. Don’t forget the insurers and their connection to C.T. Whitman’s hubby. Don’t forget all those option contracts on airlines and their yet to be revealed owners. I mean, people actually bet that it would happen.
As far as whistleblowing goes, you aren’t going to get a live one, at least not for long. Those who know too much, don’t live too long, even if they never talk to anyone. One has to be sure. So we will get leaks instead. What does consistent obstruction across agencies just prior the ‘attacks’ mean, and why do we know about this? Why aren’t we talking about these interfering characters by name? I have heard their positions named, so why not just find out who did this interference and interview them? Where are they now?
Well, here’s a challenge:
anyone that can scientifically PROVE that the official story of the Trade Towers is accurate, with guidelines, and specific questions to address.
http://reopen911.org/Contest.htm
Any Physicists or other science-educated folk want to have a go at it?
i’m as down with the reynolds derby as anybody, but this guy apparently has a reputation as a bit of a crackpot. grains of salt all around.
one of my favorite 9/11 bits, though, is the one about some mystery person placing ridiculous short options on United and American stocks just prior. they made millions, but the money has sat unclaimed.
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline
that timeline is definitely worth checking out.
discussions.
I will summarize thus:
Forget WTC # 1 & #2. I don’t believe the official story, but being an exotic design it is hard to claim definitively how they should have fallen.
WTC #7 is a different matter. Guns don’t smoke more than this! It was not an exotic design. Like all modern sky-scrapers, it was fire-proof, which means only the furnishings were burning. WTC # 7 was not struck by aircraft, but seemingly by debris from the towers. Fires were observed on two floors.
The claim is not the impossibilility of failure of steel structure under heat stress. The claim is the impossibility of symmetrical failure–envolving the entire building–under asymmettrical heat stress.
We do not believe WTC 1 & 2 could have fallen in the manner claimed, and we know that WTC #7 did not.
Prima facie, then, an inside job. The details of which would have been revealed by a standard forensic investigation–had their been one.
“In a stunning and belated development concerning the attacks of 9/11 Larry Silverstein, the controller of the destroyed WTC complex, stated plainly in a PBS documentary that he and the FDNY decided jointly to demolish the Solomon Bros. building, or WTC 7, late in the afternoon of Tuesday, Sept. 11, 2001.” Seems strange that with all of the chaos of 9-11. that explosives were planted and WTC 7 demolished in such a quick fashion…
http://www.rense.com/general47/pulled.htm
” Mr. Silverstein’s comments stand in direct contradiction to the findings of the extensive FEMA report.”
More: ” There’s also disturbing correlations between the collapse of WTC 7 and the bombing of the Murrah building in Oklahoma City. Both buildings were constructed using the same bridge beam system that, in WTC 7’s case, allegedly contributed to its demise. But more importantly WTC 7, like the Murrah building, housed high-level government offices including the FBI, CIA and the Secret Service. WTC 7 was also the storage facility for millions of files pertaining to active cases involving international drug dealing, organized crime, terrorism and money laundering.”
Yet more: ” Mr. Silverstein’s comments imply that he and the FDNY threw together an expert demolition job in the space of a few short hours on the afternoon of 9/11. This revelation is staggering enough considering its blatant contradiction to what has been, all along, the official cause of the “collapse.” But the fact that the building was buried under tons of debris and consumed in flames at the time makes his comments all the more baffling.
There’s a compelling theory that bombs had been planted inside the twin towers designed to complete the job the hijacked jets had begun. A handful of seasoned professional firefighters and demolition men have commented on how neatly and evenly the towers collapsed. Mr. Silverstein’s bewildering statements in “America Rebuilds” give an exponential boost in credence to this claim and, in a more terrifying light, loan credibility to growing suspicions that the attacks of 9/11 may have been an inside job.”
Bush-Linked Company Handled Security for the WTC, Dulles and United
“George W. Bush’s brother was on the board of directors of a company providing electronic security for the World Trade Center, Dulles International Airport and United Airlines, according to public records. The company was backed by an investment firm, the Kuwait-American Corp., also linked for years to the Bush family.”
More:”Marvin Bush’s last year on the board at Stratesec coincided with his first year on the board of HCC Insurance, formerly Houston Casualty Co., one of the insurance carriers for the WTC. He left the HCC board in November 2002.
But none of these connections has been looked at during the extensive investigations since 9/11. McDaniel says principals and other personnel at Stratesec have not been questioned or debriefed by the FBI or other investigators. Walker declined to answer the same question regarding KuwAm, referring to the public record. “
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0204-06.htm
“To get to the point, I have deep concerns that a delicate and subtle shading/skewing of facts by you and others at the highest levels of FBI management has occurred and is occurring. The term “cover up” would be too strong a characterization which is why I am attempting to carefully (and perhaps over laboriously) choose my words here. I base my concerns on my relatively small, peripheral but unique role in the Moussaoui investigation in the Minneapolis Division prior to, during and after September 11th and my analysis of the comments I have heard both inside the FBI (originating, I believe, from you and other high levels of management) as well as your Congressional testimony and public comments.
I feel that certain facts, including the following, have, up to now, been omitted, downplayed, glossed over and/or mis-characterized in an effort to avoid or minimize personal and/or institutional embarrassment on the part of the FBI and/or perhaps even for improper political reasons:”
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/WTC_whistleblower1.htm
At point she suggested that it was as if Bin Laden had moles working inside the FBI.
“On Sept. 11, just minutes after the attacks began, the supervisory agent in Washington headquarters phoned Minneapolis, and Ms. Rowley took the call. In that call, she says, he “was still attempting to block the search of Moussaoui’s computer.”
Ms. Rowley recounts the conversation this way: “I said something to the effect that, in light of what had just happened in New York, it would have to be the ‘hugest coincidence’ at this point if Moussaoui was not involved with the terrorists. The [supervisory agent] stated something to the effect that I had used the right term, ‘coincidence’ and that this was probably all just a coincidence and we were to do nothing in Minneapolis until we got their [FBIheadquarters’] permission.” He added, she says, that he didn’t want Minneapolis to “screw up” investigations “elsewhere in the country.”
Ms. Rowley adds another chilling detail. In the early aftermath of Sept. 11, whenever she told the story of the Moussaoui investigation to FBI personnel, “almost everyone’s first question was: ‘Why? Why would an FBI agent(s) deliberately sabotage a case?’ ” She adds that “jokes were actually made that the key FBIHQ personnel had to be spies or moles, like Robert Hansen [actually Hanssen], who were actually working for Osama bin Laden.”
This is no laughing matter. When an FBI field operative who is the chief legal counsel of her office tells the head of the FBI in Washington that they’ve been wondering, out in the field, if spies or moles made the fateful decisions, she is saying something huge. She is saying she thinks it is possible that spies within the FBI thwarted attempts to stop or diminish the attacks of Sept. 11.
http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/pnoonan/?id=110001778
“That’s because Sibel Edmonds is the most gagged person in the history of the United States, at least according to her ACLU lawyers. If gag orders were nickels, she’d be rich. Since her dismissal from the FBI in March 2002, Edmonds has borne the burden of state censorship with relative aplomb, working constantly within the law to make her story heard. After she gave a brief spate of interviews, John Ashcroft invoked the “state secrets” privilege, silencing her before the press and denying Edmonds her day in court.”
http://www.antiwar.com/orig/nicholson.php?articleid=7738
“Edmonds herself claims, inasmuch as she can claim anything at all on camera, that events hidden from the American public are much bigger than the simple case of an upright translator done wrong, and bigger even than highly placed elected officials taking bribes. She evokes widespread criminal activity involving nationals from several countries, linked by transnational criminal networks and engaged in clandestine contraband of all sorts – including drugs, weapons, and sensitive information. Some of that criminal activity, she claims, is relevant to the events leading up to 9/11. It seems appropriate to ask, then, what sensitive foreign relations could outweigh a national security complex compromised on multiple fronts? And if Edmonds’ claims are mere bunk, then what’s the harm in allowing them to be refuted publicly?
On the other hand, maybe what Edmonds has to say cuts a little too close to the interests of influential neoconservatives and hawks.”
The frustration was evident in many of the sincere dedicated professionals caught up in the deliberate obstructions. John O’Neil had run into one obstruction after another until he finally resigned in disgust. He took a new job and Sept 11, 2001 was his first day on the job at the World Trade Center in New York.
One of the more bizarre moments was when John Ashcroft issued orders to classify all testimony/accounts of the whistleblower charges retroactively He applied that to as much as he could. Most of this had been on the internet for months and there were too many copies to track down anyway.
The idea of retroactively classified information is a scary one.
I think Fitzgerald has been looking into all of this for quite a while now.
Silverstein Makes a Huge
Profit off of the 9/11 Attacks
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/silverstein.html
“Also, the towers required some $200 million in renovations and improvements, most of which related to removal and replacement of building materials declared to be health hazards in the years since the towers were built. Other New York developers had been driven into bankruptcy by the costly mandated renovations, and $200 million represented an entire year’s worth of revenues from the World Trade Towers.
The perfect collapse of the twin towers changed the picture.
Instead of renovation, Silverstein is rebuilding, funded by the insurance coverage on the property which ‘fortuitously’ covered acts of terrorism. Even better, Silverstein filed TWO insurance claims for the maximum amount of the policy, based on the two, in Silverstein’s view, separate attacks. The total potential payout is $7.1 billion, more than enough to build a fabulous new complex and leave a hefty profit for the Silverstein Group, including Larry Silverstein himself.”
“The 19 names of suspected hijackers released by the FBI don’t even appear on the passenger lists of the hijacked planes. Check it out for yourself – here’s the full list of alleged hijackers along with the passenger manifests.”
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/hoax.html
“FBI Chief Robert Mueller admitted on September 20 and on September 27 that at this time the FBI has no legal proof to prove the true identities of the suicidal hijackers. Yet in the haste to move forward on the already planned war in Afghanistan, our government and the FBI (which does not have the best record for honesty in investigations to begin with, having been caught rigging lab tests, manufacturing testimony in the Vincent Foster affair, and illegally withholding/destroying evidence in the Oklahoma Bombing case) are not taking too close a look at evidence that points away from the designated suspect, ex(?) CIA asset Osama Bin Laden.
In particular, the FBI, too busy harassing political dissenters to find spies in its midst, the long rumored mole inside the White House, or plug leaks in high-tech flowing to foreign nations, has willfully and criminally ignored the implications of some vital pieces of information the FBI is itself waving around at the public.”
Additionally: “Fake terror is nothing new. According to recently released files, our government planned Operation NORTHWOODS to stage phony terror attacks against American citizens in the wake of the Bay Of Pigs, to anger Americans into support for a second invasion of Cuba. The plan was spiked by JFK. If our government has ever actually carried out such plans to stage phony terror attacks, the documents have remained classified. But given the reality of Operation NORTHWOODS, or the manner in which FDR maneuvered Japan into attacking Pearl Harbor, one cannot rule out the possibility that, once again, the people of the United States are being lied to by their own government, to manufacture consent for a war of invasion already being discussed with other nations the previous summer.”
“Second WTC Janitor Comes Forward With Eye-Witness Testimony Of ‘Bomb-Like’ Explosion in North Tower Basement
Jose Sanchez, while working in a sub-level 4 workshop of the north tower on 9/11, heard a bomb-like explosion, had his hair burned and rescued a co-worker who had his leg and knee broken from the basement blast taking place at the same time the jetliner struck the top floors.
12 Jul 2005″
http://www.arcticbeacon.com/articles/article/1518131/29079.htm
one could spend days here, this one will open your eyes”
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/project.jsp?project=911_project
“”Oh Lucy! – You Gotta Lotta
‘Splainin To Do”
A TIMELINE SURROUNDING SEPTEMBER 11TH – IF CIA AND THE GOVERNMENT WEREN’T INVOLVED IN THE SEPTEMBER 11 ATTACKS
WHAT WERE THEY DOING?
by Michael C. Ruppert
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/02_11_02_lucy.html
“A more complete timeline listing crucial events both before and after the Sept. 11 suicide attacks, which have been blamed on bin Laden, establishes CIA foreknowledge of them and strongly suggests that there was criminal complicity on the part of the U.S. government in their execution. It also makes clear that the events that have taken place since Sept. 11 are based upon an agenda that has little to do with the attacks.”
Who benfitted would be a key one… Time spent on this, leads to more time to investigate. One must not fear the truth. Do you really want to know ??? Then take the time to educate oneself. Time to go out and listen to some music……. Make the time to look with open eyes into 911. Our country is at stake.
http://rense.com/1.imagesH/statesplashnew.jpg
THAT”S FUNNY! coffee came out my nose! Thanks
When the conspiracy(wink wink) theories make more sense than the government fairy tales regarding 911. Questions need to be asked, answers must be demanded. Those whose incompetency(or complicity) allowed 911 to unfold, have benefitted the most from 911…
I think it’s time for me to do the diary on 14 Billion to One Odds that so many notable microbiologists/scientists would die in such a short time period (30 months?)
I found Thompson’s work several years ago and I’m still not done reading all of the references.
Yeah, this one needs to be exposed and quickly before the so-called avian flu strikes. Donny Rumsfeld stands to make millions of dollars w/ the increasing sales of tamilflu…he owns some 5-25 million shares in Gilead Sciences, the BioTech firm that invented the patent for Tamiflu and sold it to Roche. Gilead and its shareowners collect 10% of all sales of Roche’s Tamilflu in royalties. WTF ?????????????
A lesser man might buy stock instead of telling the tale of a hundred suspicious deaths inflicted on a select group of professionals in our world-wide community.
What? Bio-Warfare = Avian Flu = Rumsfeld’s Fortune
Tell the tale, bro.
http://www.blogigo.co.uk/socialdemocracynow
That link looks to be a wealth of valuable knowledge. The first thing I noticed though were several cans of worms marked Do Not Open.
…on to the bio-tists it is.
Rense and wrh have a wealth of info on the disappeared microbiologists…
Yeah, I’m going to do that unless someone beats me to it. I had forgotten about those lost lives recently and was a bit shocked to see how many more names have been added.
By the way,…for future reference…I am not suicidal and would never consider it.
Are you a geneticist/ microbiologist? Are you just putting it out there on the record?
“Now if we apply Occam’s Razor (that the simplest explanation is usually the most likely), recent owner Larry Silverstein is simply guilty of massive insurance fraud. And destruction of government property. And conspiracy. And perjury. And reckless endangerment.
Because any man who buys a piece of property, purchases massive amounts of insurance, and purposely destroys it weeks later, only to claim many times the amount of what that property is worth, is almost always a criminal suspect.
And Silverstein admitted doing it. His words to that effect were taped.
But how could Silverstein have arranged to “pull it” (his remarks) in the few hectic hours before the collapse? Normally, a controlled demolition requires days or weeks, not hours, of careful preparation.”
http://rense.com/general68/murph.htm <<< LINK
“It’s not a conspiracy if it’s a fact.”
The FBI still says these are the terrorists.14 But when they are found alive,
the FBI says their identity was stolen, and its not the terrorist.15
Remember that suspicious bin Laden “confession” video?
# How could he praise uninvolved living people12 for the 9/11 hijackings?
# If they stole identities, how did the FBI identify those passengers as terrorists?
Not by flight calls, which contradict the FBI13 information!
# These aren’t the first mistakes. FBI quickly had amended the original list8,
as the original “suicide hijackers” came forward!
http://www.welfarestate.com/911/
Old Article just posted at http://www.davidicke.com/headlines.php
The planes were bombs. That is why they picked long-haul cross country jets. The planes were filled with fuel, and were large projectiles. The other “explosions” were collapses of the superstructure that caused mass releases of structural tension. Yes, the fuel bruned quickly, however, having a bomb last, as this questionably suggest “a few minutes” as opposed to a fraction of a second is a little unusual.
The guy does physics. The civil engineers have it figured out.
Just because 9/11 was a boon to Bush does not mean it was not an act of evil created by fundmentalist terrorists. By that logic, Clinton bombed the building in Oklahoma.
You know, I once suggest that we have troll ratings for diaries. This is why.