All this talk about “hurting the morale of troops” & therefore undermining the mission by calling the war a ‘mistake’, calling for withdrawl, and the larger fact that the war was based on lies for profit, misses a larger point… of course it does. How could it not?
Because obviously not one of them wants to be the last person to die for a lie.
It’s basic psychology and nothing to do with “staying the course”… no one (well, no one who doesn’t get off on killing people for no reason) wants to know that they are putting their life on the line, watching their brothers and sisters die and ruining their lives because their President lied to send them there.
Come to think of it, perhaps their morale is a bit bruised by knowing that while Osama is running around Pakistan, evidently under the protection of the government, they are open targets in a desert far, far away… and for no reason other than a) Halliburton/ Lockheed, etc wanted them there or b) Bush is delusional and really thinks this was ‘God’s Will’.
That would hurt a lot don’t you think?
Perhaps they will continue to deny reality and blame those who want to bring them home “before their job is done”. That would be natural too… because what is the other option? Acknowledging that you are so easily deceived by mom, pop and apple pie speeches? The “Axis of Evil” was just a nice turn of phrase to get others to do their fighting for them… that they are not “liberators” but bringers of death and destruction to a country that was not a threat to them… that kind of acknowledgment could be really dangerous for someone who is still getting shot at and blown up in Iraq… and who is still shooting and blowing up Iraqis.
Hell, I worry about how they will cope with reality when they finally do come back state-side.
So yes, Americans may very well know deep down that it does hurt the morale of the troops… but not for the reasons the GOP would want you to believe.
It hurts morale because they know that they are expendable to those with money and power… same as it ever was.
They are the cannon fodder for use at the pleasure of King George.
So which one of them will be the last to die? And how many Iraqis will be joining them?
And that question doesn’t just hurt their morale, it hurts the American “we’re the good guys” psyche too.
Great diary, spiderleaf – recommended!
As in Vietnam (or probably any war for that matter)they’d be crazy to not be crazy. Catch 22.
A question for the group: To what degree did Nixon’s demise in Watergate keep America from facing up to the ugly fruits of imperialism and the myth of American Exceptionalism on display in Vietnam? (“Well, losing that war was all Nixon’s doing, and he’s gone now; back to watching Johnny Carson…”)
Will this time be any different?
Thanks KP & excellent question.
My thought is that it is precisely because Nixon was allowed to resign and the war ended without any serious examination of what brought America to VietNam to begin with that is at the root of why Iraq, or Iran-Contra, etc. is allowed to happen unchallenged.
It’s always the “lone nut” in America… Nixon, Oswald, Shirhan, North, etc. who is to blame… never the military-industrial-intelligence-complex. And that allows American’s to keep consuming and spending and watching football in peace.
Unfortunately I think the American public was a lot more ready back in 1963 to examine these issues then they are now… back then Roosevelt’s warnings would have still been fresh in their minds… now it would literally be looking back at 40 years of deception and propaganda & assassinations of elected leaders… and that’s tough/ tragic/ devestating to think about. Especially when you have been conditioned to not think of yourselves as the new Rome.
But it has to happen this time. It must. And the Dems need to know that when/ if they win in 2006, Impeachment and real investigations are crucial.
My vote is to let Waxman, Boxer and Conyers lead them.
I think spiderleaf has nailed it. I would add only that the tendency to become complacent once a crisis has past extends to other issues as well: race, poverty, health care, the environment, etc.
I particularly think this was will not foster great changes because the fomenters of war have been very careful to avoid calling for sacrifice from citizens in general, and not from any specific groups that have any special clout with the powerful, and certainly not from the powerful themselves. Congress will have no incentive to change, barring a great, embarrassing scandal, the likes of which are not great, given the greater ability now (than during Watergate) for the President to control access to information, to what the media says, and to the independent operation of Congress and the Judiciary.
In short, I think too many of the checks and balances require good common will, which is greatly damaged and perhaps unrecoverable.
The sacrifices that have been made are by those who can least afford to make them. Balancing the budgets on the backs of the poor w/increased “sin” taxes/user fees.
Will the rich ever be called on to make a sacrifice? Hell no! The name of the game is divide and conquer!
If it is a choice between morale or possibly lessening the loss of life, well, there really is no choice. This is just a smokescreen to lengthen our time there so more money can flow into Cheney’s, err, Halliburton’s coffers. Nice diary, spidey.
Getting Americans to critically examine our “good guys” self-image wouldn’t be such a bad thing. Not likely to happen though.
I believe this belief in America being “good” and everyone else “evil” or “lesser beings” goes much deeper than just self-image. It goes to the psyche of America… ie. America’s/ American’s collective soul/ consciousness.
That’s why I chose that term.
This sums it up for me:
And that is what is lacking right now. And you are right that it most likely won’t be examined by the citizens of the US… hence Syria in 2006/ 2007… or Iran. Or Venezuela. Take your pick, it will all happen again.
I’d like to make a point.
I was born in the US and raised in the US. Yet, I am not afflicted with these characteristics you describe as representative of the psyche of America.
I fully believe that the US government is the single greatest threat to civilization on the planet and the self-absorbed nature of a large part of the American society contributes to the intensity of this threat.
But, while there are as many “Ugly Americans” as there are in the world, there are plenty of us who are not, and I find it careless of you to generalize the way you have in this comment despite the fact that I agree with your broader sentiment.
As long as we generalize in this way, (“The Iraqi this” the Islamic that”, the Catholic this” or the Jerwish that”, etc.), we are not focusing on the root causes of those problems we seek to find solutions for.
There are extremists and arrogant sadists in every culture. It so happens those running the American government and business giants have quite a bit of power that is used to inflict damage on the world. But please try not tar everyone in America with the same brush.
Well I apologize for generalizing, however I am married to an American, lived in the US (California) for 11 years and have many, many US friends, and even with the most liberal, the exceptionalism is deeply ingrained in the psyche. They may have fought against it their whole lives, but it is something that is ingrained in the American character. It’s not always a bad thing and can be used to do much good in the world, but turned on its head and it can be quite destructive. So while the generalization is unfair towards all 300+ million of you, it wasn’t meant as a slam.
Canadians have something similar… being “polite”. But that’s a different story and not the tale I was telling today.
I guess if I thought that I agreed that there was such a thing as “the American psyche” or “the American character” then I might agree with the thrust of your perspective. Alas, I just don’t buy into these sorts of simplistic perspectives. As far as I can see there’s no more of a monolithic “American character” than there is a monolithic “Canadian character” and I’m deeply sorry to find these sorts of generalizations still finding their way into the public discourse.
It’s so easy to use national or racial or ethnic or religious frameworks as the broad rubrics within which to levy criticism I’d have thought we’d have at least been able to become more specific in directing our criticism.
I understand your point and we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one or we could probably go back and forth for days discussing it.
As a reference, (and not to press the debate here beyond where it rests), this link here is to a comment I made on another thread here at BT earlier in the month that deals with the same basic subject.
Psyche — yes, a more precise word.
I wish I could argue with you. Alas.
Remember the glee when we kicked ass in Grenada & finally got that Vietnamese monkey off our back?
kinda been in the situation, the singlemost thing that hurt my morale in Vietnam was knowing that the whole charade was just that — that whatever idealism, patriotism, whatever that had spurred me to be there was being wasted, was being spent like chump change, that the death and destruction that I witnessed and participated in was for nothing — or, at least nothing WORTH IT.
Also, please note that this whole poll being trumpeted is what American people THINK soldiers FEEL. It’s not what the soldiers say they feel. Given how wrong the “American people” have been about other things recently (what percentage thought that Saddam was behind 9/11?), this poll is not worth the pixels it’s printed on.
yup… that’s what I was thinking myself… although I dressed it up a bit… knowing you were there for nothing and had been so deceived. That would depress the hell out of me.
you don’t dwell on it — at least, I didn’t. You wrap yourself up in your job, put on your bullshit macho face for those around you, and count the days until you climb on the plane home.
who has been to Iraq three times. He’s not a public relations officer, he’s a corporal, he’s a grunt – he carries an M16 and shoots at people.
A bit over a year ago (just before the election), he and I had a talk about Iraq and I posted the results in this diary on dKos.
Based on his comments, let’s rephrase the poll question in a more reality-based manner:
Of course, in the actual real world, the military folks in Iraq actually have their own knowledge and opinions based on information they gather with their own eyes and ears. My nephew’s opinions would lead me to believe that many, and probably most, soldiers and Marines in Iraq are fucking thrilled that the politicians and the media in the US are finally getting a clue, and that this might lead to those soldiers and Marines actually being able to return home with lives and bodies intact sometime in the forseeable future.
That would be my answer to this assinine push-poll: I think the soldiers and Marines in Iraq are fucking thrilled about the criticism. Some may be bummed out but, hey, real life is a bitch.
n.b. This is a crosspost from yesterday on dKos http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2005/11/27/19113/930/52#52