Some of you may have been following the diary written by my African friend Pastorlincoln linked hereand have seen that I am very disturbed by the comments that have been posted there.
To say I am disappointed and angry is not nearly big enough to express the feelings I am having.
If these views as expressed in said diary are indicative of the liberal view of things I invite you to read the following definition and tell me it is so.
Liberal
Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.
Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.“
So lets bring the discussion to this diary, and hash this out.
The definition you posted describes me perfectly, except it is missing the qualifiers, Radical, Socialist.
So I be a librul.
I want to remind everyone that among the members of this site are people who have faith, not in a religious sense, but faith in a power that is greater than us, and in that power we find the ability, the propensity and the possibility for healing. Are we no longer welcome to share these views on this site.
Is this site to be one of a very narrow view of our very complex reality.
This is lifted from the diary that Pastor Lincoln posted here. Apparently his belief in Religious Healings through his church is totally unacceptable to some on this site. My response to one of those comments is this:
I am curious why this diary needs excusing? We don’t feel the need to rampage over the silly, nonsense that is posted here frequently if not daily. We don’t mind at all that some found the Sex Toys diary very offensive, we don’t mind that some are terribly offended by the mentions of Paganism and Witches. But we mind this innocent mistake by an unsophisticated barely educated man in Uganda. I am truly puzzled.
If that is acceptable then Brother Bob who is on the air here in the middle of night and asks viewers to place their hand over his on the TV screen… and send in money for healing and prosperity (his) is acceptable as well.
And the rest of us don’t send our money to the Doctors, practitioners, hospitals, drug companies who we extole as OUR “Faith healers?” Interesting.
We place our faith, most of us, in Science and Medicine, and therefore, everything else is outside of the realm of possibility. Science and medicine don’t know everything, and often they know very damn little except they are excellent at knowing how to get our money by the Billions. In many ways, in my opinion, the “Dying Care Industry”, because it certainly cannot be called health care, is just as fraudulent as Brother Bob is. Want a news flash? THERE WILL NEVER BE A CURE FOR CANCER. . .not because it isn’t possible, but because the “searching for the cure” is a multi Billion dollar industry. And I have seen many cancers cured outside of the mainstream using herbs and other methods. Deadly melanomas with “3 months to live” pronounced and verified by our Science only medical Gods. I have seen far more healing by people of faith in other things besides science than I have seen or personally experienced in our worship of medicine.
Five years ago I could have had both my knees replaced. Certainly the xrays and medical gurus proclaimed it was the only answer to my excruciating pain from arthritis and no cartlege in my knees. Just saw the femor above the knee, saw the fibula and tibula below the knee, and presto a new plastic or metal joint is attached and six months later you will be pain free and walking.
I chose another solution. Something you and most here won’t understand nor ever care to understand. I gathered “Energy Workers” around me, Bowen Therapists, EMF practitioners, Zero Point Balancers, Theta Level healers, all loving friends and members of my spiritual family. I paid nothing for this help, though even if I had, it would have been many tens of thousands less than the doctor, hospital, surgery, anesthesia, walkers and Rx medicines.
January 1st, 2002, after an evening of wonderful togetherness and sharing between our little spiritual family members, I got up off the floor (why I got down there in the first place is another story and rather incomprehensible to most)unassisted, and walked across the room, pain free.
I have had no pain since and my bone on bone knees carried me very nicely on a six mile trail in the Tetons in June of 2002. There have been too many things like this that have happened to me, my family, my close friends and my acquaintences for me to scoff at what will or will not effect healing.
I do not suggest that people do not go to doctors or take their nasty chemical medicines. If that is where you place your “faith” then that is what will do you the most good. I have no faith in them for me. It would not be best for me to spend my time and precious little money with them What you believe in is what will work for you. And I have no desire to get into any arguments about that statement. Read Dr Bernie Segal’s book Love, Medicine and Miracles. He’s an Oncologist, he knows a thing or two.
Yes, I certainly despise and am disgusted by Scam artists that are touting there “cures and healings” and all that charade entails.
This is not where Pastor Lincoln is coming from.
We have many views of how things work and how things should work and what we “know” to be the one and only RIGHT way. And we are just as full of it as these maniac bible thumping crooks.
All I am trying, obviously without much success, to relate to you is Your problems and My problems with religions and religious scam hacks are not Lincoln’s problems. No, he did not know that he should not post this type of material here. And Many of us found it appropriate to excoriate him, to pronounce him a fake, a scam artist, to project all our hatred of mainstream religion onto him and feel big and proud of ourselves because we called out a simple man from Uganda and we showed him.
I thought this was a different type of site than that. Apparently I am wrong. Not the first time I have been wrong, so there you have it.
I’m sorry, the statement about “brother Bob” was a quote from the commenter, and should have been in blockquote as well.
Brain freeze. . .that’s my excuse, okay?
In many ways, in my opinion, the “Dying Care Industry”, because it certainly cannot be called health care, is just as fraudulent as Brother Bob is.
Well said, Shirl. I was thinking about this at PastorLincoln’s diary. Not only medicine, but many other aspects of our consumerist culture are based on the dubious belief that if you have enough money to pay for it, anything is possible. Political participation too, is very much faith-based and some would say has been definitively proved fraudulent and ineffective.
I’m not a Christian and I have been subjected to offensive Christian propaganda my whole life. If people started writing diaries that promised me hellfire and damnation unless I accept the Lord Jesus Christ as my savior, I would take my browser elsewhere. I got that crap all the time when I was a kid and there are still plenty of people out there who want to convert me. That doesn’t happen here obviously. Some of Pastor Dan’s diaries were a little borderline for me. But he and a lot of other bloggy believers are doing good progressive work and I can respect that.
Respect for differences. Isn’t that what sets us apart from the conservatives?
The “pastor” in Uganda was not proselytizing and did not deserve the disrespect he received. As I said over there, it was probably inevitable as the Pond grew, discourse would deteriorate. That saddens me.
Exactly, Lil! That is what is supposed to be and make the difference in my opinion. Frankly, sometimes I become so totally disgusted with human beings, I desperately want off this planet and now would not be near soon enough. I know that the detractors on that diary are the few and not the majority here. And I don’t blame anyone who does not wish to participate in either view point in such trashings.
I long ago decided that things that are hot button issues for me (and btw, as I see it, those are the things I most need to work on within myself)I will not participate in unless or until I can come from some place of balanced reason in my remarks. There are certain contributors on blogs, authors, that I never read for that very reason. As my mother told me many years ago when I was a child, “Consider the source.”
Thank you for your reasoned and considerate contributions to the nastiness that went on in the other diary. It is much appreciated.
I have as many, or more, highly charged and outraged reactions to “religions” as anyone here has and for many of the same reasons they are felt by others. But something I have spent years learning (yeah, I’m slow) is that there is always a higher, bigger, more encompassing perspective of everything. And when I encourage and allow myself to take that higher ground, I see that certainly MY WAY is not the only way, nor is it the best way for all. It is the best way for me and that is all that matters to me personally.
We have no business telling others how and what to believe or how to live their lives. If they ask my opinion, they are certainly going to get my opinion, but unsolicited advice from me is presumptuous, ego-centered nonsense that is perpetrating the same behavior I abhor in the religious, political, or general populace nuts.
I am a work in progress. We all are. Pretty hard for me to tell others that I know it all. None of us do.
I had no intention of hurting or being rude to those who vehemently disagree with my views. I hope I didn’t come across that way.
Thanks again for your thoughts and concerns so well expressed.
Neither of you responded to the quote I pulled from the pastors earlier posts.
Like I said I have traveled and worked in Africa and these comments would worry most Africans. The combination of poverty and relgion is like putting a lighted match next to a powder keg. Not so long ago Uganda suffered from it’s own Jonestown mass suicide headed by a defrocked priest. People are so desperate that they are EXTREMELY suscetable to this kind of influence. It reminds me of that old song “If it weren’t for bad luck, I’d have no luck at all” Well in the case of Africa it could be sung “If it weren’t for exploitation I’d have no HOPE at all”
Also I personally take offence at perception of seeing Africans as children and not as equal partners. I find this kind of condescension… unproductive.
Religion IS the WMD in Africa and has been for centuries. Having said that I also highly praise the Church of England for the election of its first African Archbishop. I think it is a positive step in toning down the extremism prevalent in African religion.
This is something I could promote glad, but I am honest I find it highly troubling of those who profess to “save many lives that is to say three mad people where healed after a power prayer in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior“. I am not saying it can’t happen that is why I would like to discuss this further with the pastor.
Lastly, you seem to always refer to “How it used to be here” when ever there is a disagreed of opinion… who is not welcoming whom here…? Are you calling for a shut off of commenters after a certain registration date or ID number? I’d like to know.
There seems to be sufficient interest here that ideally, the Pastor returns to discuss his mission further, with the understanding (perhaps with some advance advice from Diane)that he is likely to encounter skeptics and not to take offense.
Too simple?
Condescending, you know what sounds condescending to me is your comment and your other comments, why has this become a debate about his religious views, why did it…I won’t debate your religious views or any other’s and this is not about that neither was Lincoln’s, and you seem to feel because you have visited Africa, been in Africa that you are better prepared to tell an African what they should or should not do or believe or write about or post here. That we are having this discussion at all about his religious views is extremently offensive to me. That you would continue to press your points are as well.
I understand that you would like to have this discussion with him and I am sure he would be able with his limited English be able to dash around and counter all your points, and truely I wish he were here to respond in some manner, but he is not here and to continue in this way is unproductive at best.
Give a man a fish and feed him for a day,… teach him how to fish and feed him for a lifetime.
Gee how interesting that you brought that line up about the give a man a fish, exactly what I have been trying to do with this man, help him to start a business so that he can have income, did you read the diaries about that. Yeah, I’ve tried to give him more than just a fish.
Yes I did read it and I also read his website and his diaries here
Parker, I respect your rights to your opinions. I feel like I am talking about my rose garden and you are responding with “you should have planted apple trees.” I guess I am just not smart enough or educated enough or worldly enough to get my points across.
Frankly I would prefer, personally, that all the churches/religions be wiped from the face of the earth, but so far “God” or the “universe” doesn’t seem to think my point of view is worthy of that action. So I do the best I can to honor everyone’s views and the things/precepts they hold dear to themselves. I figured out I don’t know everything. And I certainly don’t know much about most things.
My only point here was to give Lincoln the respect that we have come to expect to be given ourselves.
For someone who wants very much to be an effective communicator, I certainly have fallen far short of the mark.
I will leave it to those who are obviously more qualified, gifted an able than I.
I agree that we are all coming at this from different points of view and the we ALL have something to share. The bruhaha seems to have started that differing POVs should not be voiced.
D101 sees this as helping a pen pal and I see it as something completely different. I am troubled to say the least and this POV comes from my own personal experiences.
I am not saying that D101 is wrong to have him as a pen pal and I do not want to be told that I am wrong to have my doubts.
I don’t think it’s that different points of view should not be voiced. Just that they were being voiced in such cold and unfriendly ways in that diary. I can understand that, if somebody thought it was spam. But after Diane made it clear this was an invited friend, that she has known him for a long time and he has never given her any reason to suspect him of what we have suspected him of, then it would have been nice if people could have taken it down a notch and maybe even offered hello, before they expressed their different points of view. Or, if they couldn’t do that, then walked away.
However much any of us may doubt his motives, Diane says he’s okay. Her word should be worth something around here.
Like I said I am basing my assumptions from my own experiences but am open to hearing from the pastor.
Sounds good to me.
you seem to always refer to “How it used to be here” when ever there is a disagreed of opinion
Parker, was this addressed to me? If you are asking what I mean by “as the Pond grew, discourse would deteriorate” — I mean that the “don’t be a prick” rule was followed more readily when the place was smaller, growth was slower, and it was easier to keep up with what everybody else was writing about. With growth it’s harder — maybe people feel they have to shout louder to be heard.
No, I wasn’t referring to you.
From the definition of liberal above.
“highly troubling”
Not my cup of tea particularly. . .but who am I to discount something I did not participate in, did not witness and have absolutely no other information about. It these folks feel themselves to be healed, and additionally pastor lincoln feels it is so. . .more power to them.
Like I said it is my point of view. This is HIGHLY TROUBLING…
Gosh Shirl, I feel guilty enough for all of us and I didn’t even read or comment on Pastorlincoln’s diary. Maybe a short, introductory word from you or Diane as a preface would have been a good idea. It’s sad, but people tend to be inherently distrustful and cynical.
Laura, my dear, you have nothing to feel guilty about. This is just one of those issues that I cannot or am not willing to back down on. RESPECT. I demand it for myself and I will always demand it for others. I don’t care how opposed we are to the views others hold. If we are not willing to give the respect that we damand for ourselves to those we oppose then we have nothing, imo.
It’s the “I adamantly disagree with your view, but I will defend to the death your right to express it” thing. I take that very seriously.
I am by no means an “innocent” unaware of all the agendas afoot in our world. I tend to be very suspicious and cynical. . .but I at least allow for an explanation and or differing view to come into my thoughts befor I tear someone limb from limb. That’s just me. Others apparently hold a differing view.
You’re right…I wish everyone could disagree without being downright nasty. But if you think of pastorlincoln’s diary as bait, it’s going to attract those with a strong feeling about the subject he’s talking about, in this case, religion. Those who would have come to his defense were not there.
On another day he would have been greeted much more warmly and openly. I wish that had happened.
Like Shirl I have absolutely no use for organized religion and would wipe it from the face of the earth.
What I will defend – vocally and adamantly – is that those opinions are valid for those that believe. Their actions: I will defend their right to respect so long as they harm none.
The response to pastorlincoln’s diary and the content of Booman/Jerome’s diary left me with an uncomfortable feeling about BT this weekend.
Time for me to step away from the keyboard for a few days…..
on these sites. Mostly, I avoid all diaries related to the various ones, as I consider expressions of spiritual beliefs (or not) to be a very personal thing, and who am I to step on them?
With the Pastor Lincoln thing, I mentioned in a comment that there was nothing of him in the diary… it was just an ad. If there had been something of him in there, a personal story about his beliefs or something about himself, or even something about his church, I think probably the reaction would have been a bit different… as people would have been reacting to a person, not an advertisement. Sadly, that was not the case.
I remember when Boo first started and Pastor Dan posted his religious diaries, there was a request that people who wanted to debate the religion stay out of the diaries… I am not sure if that worked (and not sure it should have) but it was an attempt… because people feel so strongly about religious views. Heck, entire wars have been fought because of them.
So many people have been so harmed and damaged by religions of various sorts, or scams or cons… while others have been uplifted and feel their lives have been turned around and that they’ve found a meaning and so on… it would be great if the two (and more) views could come to some sort of understanding, but when there is great belief, great pain, and people feel they have a big stake in the matter (on either side) I don’t have much hope of that happening.
I don’t think it’s especially not being “liberal” to have a strong reaction to some things… especially if you feel they have been harmful in your life, or in that of others… I think it is human. Same for those who feel that things have been beneficial.
So, I have no answers to anything (as usual ;), although I am sorry that pastor lincoln got caught in the middle of it… I think mostly, few people had a clue who he was, cuz he doesn’t post very often.
Anyway, though… as far as i know, most diaries dealing with a person’s spirituality or journey don’t get this sort of reaction (I can’t be sure, however, because as I said, I tend not to go to them). I wouldn’t say the site, as a whole, is anti religious views or spirituality or things like that… well, many different beliefs and disbeliefs, but mostly treated with respect… and I think probably pastor lincoln would have had the same treatment if it had been an actual personal account of something, or if there had been any indication of him in the diary at all.
Well, that was a lot of blah blah to say not much, but I don’t have the gift of brevity either, sigh.
I really hesitate to wade in here, but I hate it that you and Shirl are so angry and hurt. I think you’re mad at just a handful of posters, and probably should talk to them through email, unless you’re angry at the rest of us for not coming to the pastor’s defense, too?
I’m trying to sift through this. To be fair, I think nobody who did not know the history of your friendship with him can be expected to have taken that into consideration.
That said, your underlying point about rude tone and attitude seems justified to me.
I think maybe a lot of us want to trust him, because we trust you, Diane, but we’re not sure. That’s why I always stay out of it when he’s around. I don’t want to disrespect you and I certainly don’t want to disrespect him if he is a fine and honest person. But since I have an inner niggling doubt. . .and because I have received too many spam emails from Nigeria. . .I keep my mouth shut. (I know that Nigeria reference seems to trivialize this, but I mean it seriously. Unfortunately, he may be an honest man who is standing in the shadow cast by so many less honest ones.)
I think you are wise to tell him not to post here–only because you can’t follow him around warning people that he’s a friend of yours and you trust him. And because he doesn’t quite understand the nature of these blogs, he’s always likely to step into problems. We can spare him that. Or, if you wanted to, you could guide him in how to post what he wants to post without stirring up the religious hornets.
I’m sorry you were hurt. I hope I haven’t said anything to make it worse.
Wow kansas, you just said everything I’ve been struggling to frame in my head. I guess that’s why you make the big bucks. 🙂
This has all been very difficult for me as he has posted diaries here…I was and am very aware of what people are thinking, here’s another scam guy from Africa and that in itself is very sad.
I met Lincoln through a pen pal site, through many months we became friends, money was never mentioned. I spent a great deal of time trying to encourage him to continue to study and to consider trying to find a small business that could be a co-op and help not only him but others in his family group. I gave him much intructions on the how, why and wherefore of starting a small business out of my own personal experience with business. After 7 months he wrote to me of ideas he had some up with and wanted to know how to finance it…these were small ideas with outlay of $200.00 or less. I thought about it and could come up with no solution, I certainly did not have the means, but then I thought perhaps it could become a group project run through Booman and we could make donations, and so on and help him through this, get regular reports and so on. and actually do some hands on work to help at least one little group of people in the Africa that we so often lament about.
Well I was wrong to assume that people here would be willing to assist and contribute to a project like that and stopped posting or talking about it. I advised Lincoln to no longer post here from the feelings I was getting. But then the other day, in what I am sure was a burst of wanting to share this wonderful thing he had, he posted that diary. What a mistake that turned out to be and I am especially hurt for him and that it was me who invited him here only to be subjected to that.
I have only tried to help him and now I have hurt him merely by thinking he could be a part of this group and that people here would actually care about a real person in Africa and not just some reports in the media.
He calls me Mom Diane by the way and I call him My African Son, and it is to this son, of my heart, anger and condemnation has been directed. How would you feel, how would all of you feel.
His and my association has never been about religion, but it is important to him and I respect that, he blesses me frequently, in every email and I accept and rejoice in that, and that one man in Africa a far away continent that I will never see, has allowed me into his heart and family.
I am crying now as I write this, crying for all who cannot see, crying for Lincoln, that he cannot be seen and most of all crying that I have failed him now.
Now stop that. The blubber gut that I am is crying right along with you. I know how personal this is for you. All things were done with the best of intentions. That it didn’t work out that way is outside our scope of influence. Let go of it and give it over to AAM, he’ll know what to do with it.
Learning and growing is almost always painful. Some of it more painful than others. Direct him to the village where he will be treated with the care and respect he deserves. If he treads into this lions den or any of the others, he will at least have been forewarned.
We’d feel awful, just as you do.
But you haven’t failed him, Diane! This part of it hasn’t worked out–at least not yet, though maybe there will yet be a way–but a lot of the rest of it has, including the fact that he has a Mom he didn’t have before meeting you. It’s true you haven’t managed to help him raise the money he needs, but that doesn’t mean it will never happen. And, if it does not happen? That’s not your fault. And it’s also true that this last posting was a disaster, but did you even know he was going to do it? Just as we need to live and learn from this, so, too, does he. We’re dealing with a man from a different culture, but then so, too, is he dealing with people from a different culture. Painful misunderstandings are going to happen, but that doesn’t mean we give up on them.
I think you have to be calm now. If you want to continue to help him, you have to get around this bad moment and keep looking for other ways. Second Nature has a great idea above, which is that you preface any future post with your own words about him, although everybody would understand if he chose not to do this again. I will make a promise to you, though. If he does come back, I will participate in his diary, out of affection for you and respect for what you have told us about him.
Much love to you. Shirl’s hugs would come in handy right about now.
No I had no idea he was posting this and would have forewarned him if I had. But he is a free person to do what he wishes….I know he had no idea whatsoever that his little diary would be taken in this way. I know without a doubt he thought he was offering us something wonderful, but no where did I read, thank you Lincoln for caring enough about us to bring this too us….and sharing a part of your life with us, because have no doubt this is a part of his life, a big part that he cares very deeply about, just as we have our own things we care so deeply about and we often bring them as offerings to this site.
But it’s not just him, what if I did not know this man personally and he was just as innocent as Lincoln is, and he was treated in that manner, what then, would that be ok, if no one was there to defend him or stand up for him, no one to speak for his innocense.
I am getting at something far deeper here and that is overall distrust ,dislike and disdain for anything but one’s own tightly held beliefs, that is becoming ever more prominent in postings and diaries.
Step away from your keyboard, meditate and center yourself. I think your reaction is getting out of hand. I’ve read the whole diary thread and need to point out to you that one person, one person ranted. Another couple of people questioned the motives of your friend. And a fourth had some reasonable and informed criticisms of your friend’s mission. You shouldn’t indict the whole BooTribe for the harsh words of less than five people.
And the person who suggested the “ad” should be paid for — which really set you off — is just a day-tripper here because her regular environment was down today.
I am so sorry you’re upset. Please accept a virtual hug ((((((with a kiss on the cheek))))))
Perhaps, I am over reacting but since I do not often react this strongly it requires that I pay attention, the discomfort I feel is real and as it leads me to new places I must allow it to come out..I thank you so much for your kind words and I do not consider all Boo tribs in this by any means, never intended to imply that, but I felt this was a stand I must make and take….I have seen/felt the undercurrent on these issues and with Pastor in particular and could no longer stand by without speaking my piece.
I’m ok, this too shall pass.
Hugs back to you.
Don’t know where to throw this in here….I say this as someone who has traveled to Africa 4 times over the past 20 yrs and has been working directly with African artists to establish the necessary infrastructures for them to make a fair living wage (by American standards, NOT African standards) for their work for the same number of years– w/ no government or NGO or any other “third party” interference or assistance: straight person-to-person contact, communication, etc..
I think if you are serious about helping, you need to first GO DOWN there. You need to meet the guy and his community face to face, you need to see the project and the situation–this is not me saying “I don’t trust him” or that it’s a scam. It’s just my experience with projects of this nature.
Don’t be daunted by the enormity of that idea, Diane. It’s not as hard as it sounds, it doesn’t cost as much as you might think….I’m just hearing in your voice this thing that says “I need to help.” Well, based on my experience….that means, you need to start planning a trip.
My 2cents.
stark, maybe you, if you have contacts in Uganda, or someone who does, could be recruited to suggest some families in Mr. Lincoln’s village who would benefit from the gift of a goat or chicken or two.
Then set up a paypal for the reckless and a PO box for the discreet, let people contribute to the fund, and when the needed amount is in the pot, have the Uganda contact purchase the goat etc. locally, and present it to Mr. Lincoln’s neighbors with a special thanks to him for his role in making Boofolk aware of the opportunity to provide employment for these talented goats.
One of the main success behind Heifer is the training. You can not just give people a goat… if they do not have the animal husbandry training. Also with Heifer once the person is given an animal and trainging they are expected to give an offspring away and traing the nect person. So it is not a one off deal… ie fish for a day.
For example:
Miracle Cows in Rwanda
I am not proposing that anyone try to duplicate or reinvent Heifer or similar husbandry programs.
In just about any village, from Uganda to Oaxaca to Uttar Pradesh to the austere crusts of the Thar, there are people whose lives would be greatly improved, in many cases, saved, by the possession of an animal that lays eggs or gives milk. And there are few in these areas who do not know how to care for such animals, even if they have never been fortunate enough to own one.
I think you do offer a very salient point, though, the gift should include not only the animal, but feed, which could be purchased also locally. And I like the pay it forward idea, but I agree with you that it is more suited to a “big” program thing as opposed to a simple gift from some individuals to some other individuals. At the same time, I do not think that it is too far fetched to hope that the pay it forward principle might be inspired in the hearts of those who receive either the animal gift privilege of having found a career for an exemplary goat. 😉
Depending on the number of goats versus recipient family members, the gift could either help the family stay alive, or if presented to a solitary old person or couple, even provide income, as they could sell what they do not eat.
the gift should include not only the animal, but feed, which could be purchased also locally.
I think the Zero Grazing technique is more like cutting the grass and bring it to the cow… instead of letting the cow graze on your freshly planted garden (see photo).
Any animal that needs store bought feed in countries where the majority of the population makes less than a dollar a day is unsustainable to say the least. That is why I am stressing that the training is vital in these kinds of developing schemes.
just stepped into the cockpit and non-violently but firmly removed the pilot from the controls and locked him in the food closet.
Sustainable feeding of goats and chickens is done in many places by planting things that will be edible by both man and beast.
As with basic animal care, people in these areas know how to plant corn and such year after year, if they have seed that is regular seed and does not give one crop only, which is preferred by the corporations, for population control purposes.
In any event, if the idea of giving a goat to people in ancient lands is too fraught with the modern debates over the ancient practice of agriculture, which rises to no higher art when discussed by people sitting in western homes with electric light, how about a gift of a cell phone, or if the village has this electric light I speak of, a sewing machine, or a pedal one if it doesn’t.
One of the advantages of giving life-changing gifts to people who live on a dollar a day is that there are a lot of choices.
ancient lands
That is the point of the training is to bring them in the modern era using appropriate technologies and methodologies to maximise their profits. I don’t understand the negativity towards this organization or any other organization that has a proven track record.
The problem with development is too often a one time short term goal. Any microbusiness needs other types of training to maximise profits… basic bookingkeeping and a basic theory of capitalism.
I worked with a woman once in a southern african country who hired women to produce her bead work. It was mind boggling but she would ask them how much it would cost for them to make an item and they would charge her the exact cost of the materials used never figuring in the cost of their labor… this was in 2003.
In those ancient lands the concept of “time is money” still has not caught on universally…
era, or capitalism. The bead-makers did obviously need to be brought into it a little bit, since they were making beads for someone else, but my point is that it is possible for just about anyone in the west with the money to do it to give a gift. It does not have to be something that is supposed to make them western, or capitalists, or modern, just alive, and maybe slightly less poor.
The need is so great for anything at all, that no one should feel that because they are not a big org with grandiose schemes and white papers that they cannot, with their little pile of dollars, make a real difference in the life of a brother or sister who has no pile at all, and maybe doesn’t even want a pile of dollars. Just some goat milk. Or some corn to grow in the yard, or a chicken, or that sewing machine.
The agenda I am promoting here is that it doesn’t matter which org, as long as it is a reputable and honest one, you give to, or if you get together with people on the internet, or people in your neighborhood, or your office, or your family, or just by yourself. There are more than enough recipients for all the orgs, faith-based and secular, as well as individuals, to keep anyone willing to help busy thinking of gifts and bestowing them!
No and Yes
There is no romance in poverty. I am not advocating that all people must go from one dollar a day to millionaires but that they should at least earn a living enough to feed and educate their children and have suitable shelter and access to medical services. And this is a MONTUMENTAL task in many developing countires.
Many African countries as facing AIDS rates of up to 50%. I once spoke to a doctor who in 10 years had never had a negative AIDS test come back… 100% positive. Therefore, I am a bit more “stressed” that these people have access to the MOST efficient means of development possible because there is just not enough time to make mistakes. That is where I am coming from the situation is dire and not only are the population being attacked by this dreadful disease and at the same time now many religious groups are promoting “abstinence” and condomless education…
But you are right there is no absolute wrong or right but there are means more efficient…
We can only imagine how pleased its authors are with the remarkable progress that has been made. None of those messy fits and starts and fizzles we see with SARS and bird flu.
depopulation of Africa…
I wrote about this months ago.
Faith based Genocide
which is not unlike the one I made above. If I were a nerd, I would learn macros.
Hey… you are just consistent >:-)
to appreciate this, he once said it seemed to him that whatever he said, my reply would be chosen as someone selecting the appropriate club from their bag. Which is not at all inaccurate.
When he gets back, I will endeavor to point out that I am consistent.
😉
Consistent as hell, batting 1000 w/ me….
You owe me a half a cuppa joe for that one. 😉
On the other subject…the business of attempting to alleviate poverty in so-called “developing” nations w/o at the same time introducing the Hydra that is capitalism/’modernism’. Whew. Toughy, big time toughy. Been struggling with that one for as long as I’ve been ‘involved’ w/ Africa and Africans….Do not have a clue as to how to alleviate poverty and still prevent the many-headed monster from turning everything into a goddamned disney nightmare.
For my part: the projects I’ve been involved with have become self-sustaining. They don’t need my intervention or my help anymore. Yeah, as Ducttape says, there’s still plenty of need to go around–esp in Africa.
On my last trip down there (Guinea), tho, I looked around at the changes I’ve seen in the region and I said to myself….I can’t be a part of this anymore because I really don’t know whether the positives outweigh the negatives. Now you can buy a can of Pringles potato chips at the gas station/convenience stores that have since sprung up all over down there. Naw. I never had any desire to eat Pringles in Africa, really never did. (I’m being flip about the pringles, but you get the picture).
When BushCo went into Iraq (both times) I kept thinking the same damn thing: I really don’t want every g.d. corner of this earth to look like the fucking strip malls scarring the landscape of every single american city. I don’ t want the whole world to be “like us”. I don’t, dammit. Sigh.
For my part, I’ve decided to stick with the problem of third world poverty here in the US. Least that way I won’t have to lay a guilt trip on myself twenty years from now about the unintended aftermath of my involvement.
Please feel free to tap into the resources available. That is the best thing about an online community.
Off the top of my head the best thing I would suggest is Heifer International
I could suggest setting up a registry with them in the name of BMT kinda of a Holiday gift to people in the developing countries.
Why Heifer is great.
Cornerstones guide our efforts to end world hunger and care for the earth.
This is one of the best organizations out there. They have the training skills to make funding stretch a life time.
The have also started an intitiative Empowering Entrepreneurship
Thanks for posting about Heifer, Parker. I’d not heard of this org before but I’ve bookmarked them because they sound wonderful. I’ll be strongly considering them as the recipient of the next charitable donation I can afford to make.
Heh. I already got my in-laws a beehive for Christmas. And my mom a share of a goat….and a gift certificate to her grocery store because between her $600 a month social security check and the increase in her Medicare payments she can’t afford food.
I love this organization because of their simplicity.
Like this
For 5000 you can give Noah’s Arc
is not addressing the issue of respect that Diane asked to discuss in this diary. Congratulations on your efforts to hijack the topic.
I’ve read both diaries and all the comments.
All I can say is that I truly expected better at Booman Tribune. The comments in this diary have been to ignore the issue of respect for someone else’s opinion that was the topic.
Considering the lack of respect for the original diary, where does that put those of that don’t follow ‘acceptable religion’.
I’m a pagan, worship a goddess, and wear a pentagram.
Shall I collect firewood for everyone so you won’t have to look for it??
Yes it does.
Or was D101 planning on doing the necessary training herslef. I specifically indicated that Heifer has microbusiness initiatives… which is EXACTLY what the pastor was asking money for. See I DID READ his diaries.
However, it is imperative that training goes along with such funding. The implicit idea was to use the infrastructure already set up by Heifer for the pastor. That way people would be assured of the quality of the project and that there is the necessart training available.
But it seems that people can’t get past the grudge match to see the forest for the trees.
I have no vested in this fight except the lack of respect in the other diary. Pastorlincoln means nothing to me other than someone with an opinion to express.
That was not addressed in the other diary and apparently isn’t going to be addressed here either.
Maybe I’m sensitve to the changes recently…
This isn’t the first diary that was disrespectful. This is getting worse the DailyKos
– Jerome effectively expects loyalty oaths…
– A differing opinion is treated with contempt in many diaries recently including this one and pastorlincoln’s.
– It’s okay for people to sell books here but not charities
– I guess that means I shouldn’t ask for donations to other causes as well
– BUT it’s okay for you to promote Heifer Intl
We will disagree and as I commented downthread – I’ll be leaving the site for an extended period…
Green becoming Orange…right before our eyes…
This was not meant to “sell” a charity I had foolishly thought I had found a solution to the pastor’s credibility problem by bridging the gap with experts. To which you and D101 have chastied me for ignoring the pastor’s plight.
I have chastised the tone and attitude of the comments not whether you or I agree with the Pastor.
In no way do I support organized religion – of any kind.
I found the comments here particularly condescending of Diane’s request.
I found the comments in the other diary outright offensive and in violation of the rule.
Diane asked for a discussion of respect in this diary and it has not been addressed here. At least on the orange site I know what response I’ll get. I stopped reading LSF because the tone was abrasive and abusive of anyone that didn’t agree. Now that tone has been brought here by two of their members. My perception is that you are adding to it.
And you didn’t answer my question as to why it was okay to promote or advertise one thing here and not something else.
Congratulations on your efforts to hijack the topic.
And you didn’t answer my question as to why it was okay to promote or advertise one thing here and not something else.
What do you mean I did not answer… I was not “advertising” anything it was a suggestion to get the pastors project off the ground with the necessary expertise. I continue to ignore that fact.
What is abusive is harping on about not wanting new voices here. I ask if they want a cut off date in registrations or ID numbers.
Yeah… where is it?
As it appears you have all the answers, I would think you will be the one to point it out to us. Where the respect is, I mean.
I told you I respect your opinions and your right to hold them. And the topic of respect was respecting Lincoln enough not to personally trash him and create strawmen arguments where none exist.
He did not ask YOU personally for YOUR money. He did not demand that you accept his religion, his healing practices or any of his beliefs.
He posted a simple invitation. It should not have been posted here, and when we can contact him, we will ask him to take it down. Mean time, we have found that only politics is welcome here and anything else is not welcome here.
Sorry, I wasn’t participating here when the MEMBERS decided what type of site they wanted, but the ones I have spoken to have told me they wanted diversity, they wanted community, they wanted civility and acceptance of a wide range of ideas and thoughts.
Apparently that has changed. I didn’t get the memo or I would not have been bothering everyone here with my silly nonsense.
I certainly won’t any more.
So. . .it seems it is desired to turn this in to Orange Jr., and bring on the hobnail boots. Have fun.
And thanks for your opinions and input. However much I might disagree with how you do that, I still accept that your view is valid too.
for asking valid questions.
Perhaps the tone was too snarky?
A warning rating was issued downthread for a “name calling”. Looks like we are now into a ratings war over valid questions.
What cheek you downrated me…
I am sure Lincoln will be thrilled to learn you are now promoting an organization to help other africans, perhaps advertising even….but for him what do you offer…he will receive nothing from this group or any other group…yes better to send a donation to a group where you do not know the money goes than to help a man who write invitations for healings…and is a member of this site….oh but no some are highly skeptical of him…
I am sorry, I am sure you think this organization is good, maybe it is, but I rather resent that you had to post this here, after all that has gone on with Lincoln and knowing that I have suggested to help him in the past with a plan…
Yes I think he will be quite happy when he is unable to put food on his table at the end of the month knowing that his diary has inspired you to promote an organization that will not be helping him, it will make him feel better when he struggles daily to survive and he will be especially grateful for the comments in his diary that have led to this magnaminous gesture on your part. He won’t mind the doubts and stings at all knowing someone else in Africa will maybe benefit.
I had hoped you would have read the website. I am certain that funds could be donated to a specified group of people under ther tuteledge of Heifer. But it seems it is more important for you to hold a grudge.
Oh but I did read the web site and I checked through it, but my dear you are asking us to trust this group on your say so, all the while not trusting a friend of mine on my word or his for that matter, if I was wrong in that assumption, forgive me.
You know I have set up a donation site for my friend’s project and to this date not one penny has been donated, so it’s not for lack of a place to go to donate directly that is preventing this assistance from reaching him, it is for a lack of willingness to help at all, and to me it boils down to either people just don’t want to, or they don’t trust either Lincoln or I.
I did check through the site and it appears you can direct money to an area but not to a person….but would the total amount reach them even or is it siphoned off.
Why is it so hard to just take the direct approach and just help a person. I have seen many requests for donations on this site, and people flock to help, but when I asked for help with this one man, and not just to send him money but to set up a business, well that just died.
Forget it, you just want to be pedantic I thought you really wanted to help… I am sorry I gave my advice.
You are right… why should you trust an organization with 60 years of experience in developing countires compared to your pen pal.
Pedantic, I think not, as per this definition.
pe·dan·tic (pə-dăn’tĭk)
adj.
Characterized by a narrow, often ostentatious concern for book learning and formal rules: a pedantic attention to details.
pedantic
adj : marked by a narrow focus on or display of learning especially its trivial aspects
Diane I didn’t know you set up the donation site. I don’t get to the Pond as often as I like, and as you know it’s hard to keep up with all the goings-on. I bet lots of other BooTribbers don’t know either.
or were you planning on doing the neccesary training that goes along with development projects yourself…
Have you read my comments and the diaries in question….do you not see that what I have proposed is a very small project and drawing upon the expertise that is available to him, I realize that it requires a leap of faith on people’s part to believe that this money would go to these projects, but it also takes a leap of faith to assume that any organization is really going to help any group of people anywhere.
I am giving to him the gift of taking the lead in his own destiny with my guiding hand to help, that was my proposition.
I urged him to think upon that which he knew and would have to the ability to understand, perform and carry through. He did that, and the projects he proposed were based on his own and his paticular clans knowledge…
I do not underestimate him, I fully expect great things of him if he was given the slightest chance.
I wish you could have read his emails when I first published my ideas here, he and his entire family was thrilled beyond belief and they had faith in me that help would soon be forthcoming, they spoke of it in church, that there were maybe people in America that cared about them, just them, not all of Africa.
They praised God and prayed for those people…but nothing came.
See my note above, and here a footnote: I don’t trust these “organizations” not a whit.
It is better to help the people DIRECTLY; Diane is 100% right about that.
…my suggestion then would be to get him to engage in a dialog instead of posting what reads like an ad on the back page of the Village Voice.
Your laying all this conflict at the feet of closed minds or tightly held beliefs I believe is unfair. I’ve seen well-written posts on any number of topics draw out very interesting discussions, and change minds. Any topic that involves moral choice can flirt with these kinds of deeper feelings and beliefs.
But if this is a “take my faith on faith or shove it” kind of thing, then I’m afraid you can pretty much count on conflict. Faith isn’t won in dialectic, it’s just shared. And if pastorlincoln wants to commune just people who are already like-minded about his faith, then he might be better served reaching out to faith-based groups, and not a political site where corruption, war and lies are the daily grist.
FWIW…. I’m sorry you’re so upset. I part with this question: How much of your anger is because of what people said, and how much of it is because you want them to say and do something else? (Yeah, that’s me getting back to the Dharma. Mea culpa.)
Gee Media Girl I have been all over that…I replied something like this to your comment in the other diary…we have plenty of ads in diaries on this site, for plenty of products sex toys and otherwise, and point was castigating him for posting this, why is one thing ok and the other isn’t. Now it’s turned into a discussion about religion and then to a this is a political site….Well i think this was, up till now a pretty diverse site with far more than politics, book diary, painting diary.gardening, witches and spiritual, poetry..FBC…count them, and they are the one that normally get to the top…so this site is not all about politics..
So now in this instance its not ok for this one person to post something, , just like so many others have, but this one not our cup of tea so no good here.
Just don’t get it.
Don’t get the whole shebang. BTW my goal is not to get him to post here, hasn’t been for awhile, don’t want him posting here at all now. And my goal is not to get any one here to join in a project to help here, or ot donate any money, believe me I will never post another diary along those lines here, I will keep as I have been doing, that subject in my Village Blue where I shall surely be spending more time after this last week and what has gone on here.
What the heck, this is not about me.or religion or Africa or projects in Africa..this is about respect..treatment of members and the direction of this site, whoever this particular poster happened to be.
I hope you have seen my comments over and over about it is Sunday there, he will not have any chance at internet connection till late tonight, that is if he goes to work today, and he has never shied away from responding before.
Like Kansas I was trying to decide whether I should comment at all or ignore this whole discussion. My own feeling is pretty simple though when regarding religion-if you completely disagree with any poster or diary then either ignore it or state your own views but in an eminently respectful and civil manner.
I know that certainly is hard to do at times because as always religion does get people really really stirred up. Sometimes in a good way and others not so good. As for myself I choose not to comment at his diary as I personally completely disagree with his whole religious outlook-that does not mean as in any diary the comments should be anything but civil to keep a discussion ongoing and not devolve into personal attacks on a person’s character or ideas. I think people can be extremely passionate in their disagreements while retaining their civility. Otherwise you no longer have a discussion but simply escalating attacks becoming personal and not focusing on what was actually written.
I’m probably saying this badly but it all still comes down to the fact that if you really don’t agree with this or any diary just skip it completely.
Tangled up in my own mess yesterday….
People of faith believe in many things…and not all of it is religion. This site has been open to the Pagan community…of which I am part. I’ve had lots of disagreements at the orange site on the topic of religion. Perhaps BT isn’t as open as we thought.
The last week or so there has been a change…a with me or against me attitude…in lots of diary comments. I am so sorry that pastorlincoln got nailed by those that would not listen.
Please bring him to the Village Diane…
Sorry for the babble…
I’ve just been too busy to comment much lately. Yesterday I read all the hubbub, but didn’t post at all.
Yesterday I was ashamed to even associate myself with a place with people acting like that. Especially when it is people who I usually respect.
There, I said it. Whew. I feel better.
I am taking my leave of absence now. I actually have important stuff that I need to take care of. . .at least important to me.
What a difference from one weekend to the next. I think I stepped into the wrong parallel world when I came back from my last flight to the stars. You can find me on Village Blue and Matters of Spirit. . .Bon chance mes amis.
Love you all and keep on keeping on
Time for me to step away from internet politics for a while. The blogosphere is too angry for me…I’ll stick with the politcal diaries where gracious and civil means something. I’ll stick with face to face politics…
I’ll see you over in the other universe….
Absolutely! Take a hold of my hand and we will push the bounds of beyond beyond where music, love and color combine in indescribable beauty to welcome us into All That Is! Any one else who wishes may come along as well, always room for everyone that desires the experience.
Third star on the Left and straight on ’til morning (peter pan)
Late to the party but I won’t let that stop me from posting a brief statement. It remains unclear what the original post sought to accomplish on a blog used mostly by individuals from the west. At least in this country, there is a church on what seems like every street corner. This is a political blog and postings about other subjects are not always welcome. (And certainly there are enough blogs of a religious nature for this individual to find a welcoming place.) But from what I have seen here in repsonse to my recent postings regarding religion and from other posts that I’ve read, users here are largely disillusioned with organized religion. (And that is my own personal feeling too.) And with good reason given the way religion is misused daily in this country, something I need not elaborate upon. Mistrust of this individual is understandable, but rudeness is uncalled for. However, once again, this is a political blog. Did I say that I would be brief?
Boran2 of the painting diary, a non political diary, I didn’t know any types of diaries were unwelcome here till just recently, I thought we prided ourselves on our diversity…seems not to be so..
See my comment just below, it was my observation only. I am not the diary police and am quite out of the loop on this site as far as policy-making goes. Sad that you took my comments as something else.
No Boran I didn’t take it wrong, I understood what you were saying, I just didn’t reply to you right,…I was just pointing it out, not directed at you in an adverse way.
Sorry I neglected to make that further point, I know you do the painting diaries and therefore knew you could not object to other type diaries, sorry Boran2.
Just too many words written today and I am worn out and now trying to get ready to leave, but I wanted to say that to you before I left.
A Political Blog. Fine! Then get all the God Damned Football, NBA, Baseball, Movies, What I did last night, My opinions about Cats, Painting, Dogs, Critters, Photography, Books (non-political) Personal Stories and every other extraneous topic off of here and let everyone know they are NOT WELCOME!
Thanks. That is all I ever wanted to know, is what is welcome here and what is not. Now I know.
It has been grand.
Enjoy the Politics! But monitor carefully, you know how life keeps intruding on politics.
Come on you guys, I think Boran2 was giving his take on the lay of the land, not saying that he personally doesn’t welcome non-political topics.
That was my intent, thank you. This was my only my own observation and nothing more. Sometimes other things are welcome, sometimes not. I’ve had plenty of my own that were ignored.
It is not about ignoring. We’ve all experienced that and so what. Many reasons contribute to ignoring.
If people had ignored the pastor’s diary that they found so offensive, it could have stopped there.
Someone will have to tell us who has a platform to speak from what is or is not acceptable here. It has become very clear that certain topics are not to be brought here unless they are brought up by the ones who so dislike them.
No problem. I don’t like the tone here the past few days, and I could have stayed at the orange place for this type of interaction between memebers. If others want a Jr. Orange or a little kos then that is great, but really you need to send out a notice or a memo because I was totally unaware that we all had decided to change our attitude here. And whatever the members want here is fine with me. I will always go where I feel best. Right now, it a’int here.
That doesn’t make them wrong or me right, it just makes it a place I don’t wish to frequent. Big deal and no big loss and frankly who gives a hoot.
So it will no doubt be a bit rocky for a while as you all make the change over to dk like attitudes and atmosphere, but you will survive and it will be just fine.
I wish you all only the best. Carry on and do yourselves proud.
adios
It will be a cold day in hell before any place on the left side of the blogosphere gets as vile and repulsive as Orange Square.
Again, this was only my observation, not a policy statement. There couldn’t be a person further out of the policy-making loop than me. Yes, I write a saturday diversion that people tolerate and post a few (very few) comments. And there are a few other such diversion postings here. But it has been my observation that a fair number of people here are less than thrilled with organized religion especially in view of recent events. Comments should never be rude but it’s not totally unforseen that such a posting would not necessarily be received with enthusiasm. It’s unfortunate that those who left insensitive comments just didn’t ignore the diary. Personally, I did not even open the diary knowing that I had no interest from the title alone. I was not involved at all with it. As for becoming like dkos, I don’t think so. On dkos this would have been a flame war and not just a heated discussion. And as for you Shirl, I would say that even your temporary absence would be a loss for all here.
Boran, that is a very nice thing to say, thank you.
It is a little hard to explain and goodness knows I haven’t been doing too well with explaining today. I’ll try.
I am not angry, and I am not hurt and I am not going off in a huff (or a flounce as nanette suggested hehehe). There are no doors slamming and I haven’t put a fist or a foot through any walls.
Things have been less inviting here for a while. Part of my prior “measuring out” my participation here before last weekend was due to it being less a place I wanted to be, it just felt not quite in sync with where I am. No one to blame for that, things change, people change, blogs change, it just is.
I don’t want anyone to take the credit or the blame for me taking a sabatical. Just is time for me to concentrate on some things I need to do for myself, for my own blog and just generally take care of my own business. It is easy to get wrapped up in you people here because you are a great bunch of folks and I really care about all of you very much. I will check in from time to time. But I just really don’t feel it is for my best interest to spend the sort of time I spent here this week. I have taken 5 total days out of time that I actually need to devote to other things. I enjoyed the heck out of it for the most part. but it is time to take care of other things.
I’ll drop by when I can, but not spend whole days “standing on principle.” That is just stupid and unproductive as we have all seen today. Nothing was heard or understood. My own foolishness in continuing to engage, but I keep hoping something will get through where someone will say…” Okay, I disagree with you, but it’s okay that we disagree.” Broke most all of my own rules about engaging in such time wasting, but I must have needed to stand up and be heard for some reason.
Anyway, no hard feelings. No harboring hurts, just lots of stuff to do and need to make time to do it in.
Hugs Boran,
Shirl
See my comment just below, it was my observation only. I am not the diary police and am quite out of the loop on this site as far as policy-making goes. Sad that you took my comments as something else.
Or perhaps just above.
I couldn’t make up my mind whether to put up a definition of passive-aggressive or drama queen, but I decided that it all spoke for itself.
As for “intolerant”, or “bigoted” … well, anybody can believe whatever they want, but I’m sick of being confronted by prostelitizing demands for prayer or money.
Politics, (and this IS a political website, right?) is by definition conflict. Insisting that everyone “be nice” and conform w/ some stick-up-the-ass form of expression PRECLUDES politics. If you want to see what happens w/ people are unwilling to confront religious extremism, take a look at who’s in the White House now. People demanded “tolerance” toward our religious nuts, and they’ve been able to operate w/ impunity because of it.
I am increasingly wondering whether “community” blogs are useful as places to have it out over disagreements, or are they merely another tool for manufacturing consent for some groupthink outlook on the world.
As for “intolerant”, or “bigoted” … well, anybody can believe whatever they want, but I’m sick of being confronted by prostelitizing demands for prayer or money.
Are you unable to read and comprehend?
Nowhere did pastor lincoln ask for YOUR money or tell you you must beleive, act, think or condon his religion. He simply mistakenly posted an invitation that is inappropriate on this site. But now that I have been duly informed that this is a Political Site only. . .
I thank you and I take my leave.
Oh Madman, I will not write the words I have for you, I will and btw madman, now that you bring up being sick of things, I am sick of your words as well, as you go stomping around this site stomping and trampling whatever you feel like and talking in what ever way you feel like it and now what, I am the drama queen…It never ceases to amaze me that you find yourself so useful to this site that you constantly grace us with your presence.
I hope you are not calling me passive agressive cause I am out there right now with all my presence, front and center and ready to have it out with you right now.
Who in the hell do you think you are!!!!!
Unfortunately I am going to have to leave my house shortly to go with my daughter, so lest I be called out for driveby posting, I am letting you know…
I will be back.
my artful use of language is much too graceful to be characterized as “stomping” …
hurumph.
This is all so sad to see. I actually went looking for a frog totem (and what the totem signifies) but then I thought maybe that wasn’t the best thing to bring up at the moment.
Is there a way that everyone can take a step back and just… be, for a bit? I know there are a lot of stong feelings, and a lot a hurt… and what looks like a lot of misunderstandings. In fact, this entire thing seems to have started with a misunderstanding and then flared out from there.
I see people wanting to leave the pond because of the anger and hurt and their distress… but I think from the very beginning that we decided (all of us) to make the pond what we wanted it to be. And to work on keeping it that way, even when things got bigger and splashier and the waters more rough (not sure if can fit any more cliches or metaphors in there)…
Well ,guess what? We’re bigger, splashier and the waters are a bit rough right now… so what are we going to do about it? Stop and listen? Flounce off? Work through things? Well, there is also the option of troll rating me into oblivion for sticking my nose into things, but still. I hope we can stop, look, and listen (or stop, drop and roll might be better, cuz of all the flames ;).
Just walking away for a short period…no GBCW diaries or comments here.
I will sit back and watch to see if BT continues down this path. IF some semblance of the original civility we agreed on and have worked so hard to maintain returns…we’ll see.
I still participate at the Orange site…despite the pie wars…just a little more careful about what to expect. Some neighborhoods are little rougher than others…looks like BT is getting there.
Several commenters here have made it clear as to what to expect from them. So noted.
BT has lost a substantial amount of respect from a number of us the last few days. Respect has to be earned.
I’m off for the night…
On a lighter note, I don’t think I know how to flounce, so someone will have to teach me that. . .and I am pretty darn sure that flanel shirts and jeans will make flouncing a true challenge. . .<smiles> Couldn’t possibly troll rate you when you gave me such a giggle with the thought of me “flouncing” anywhere. So thanks. Of course it may have been referring to someone else who is well qualified to flounce. Shouldn’t assume anything, I know. LOL
Oh, come now… now you’re being modest! I bet you can flounce with the best of them (don’t ask me who “them” is).
Besides… it’s such a fun word, and it definitely sounds like a fun thing to do. Who knows? You might make flouncing in flannel and jeans the new next best thing.
ROFLOL. . .I am also a little more on the “less than graceful” side. . .think of Lucy in a tutu and work boots tripping the light fantastic. . .what a flounce. . .Heh!
Well see? Not everyone can do that… you have special talents!
Besides… tutu or not, who would dare to tell Lucy… “hey, you’re flouncing wrong!”?
Wow.
I’ve managed to totally miss the actual dustup, and I’m not sure I should really say much of anything. But I’ll toss in a little copper coinage.
First off, clearly people need to, even in vehement disagreement, be able to have basic respect for others. If people disagree with everything I have to say, I expect them to argue with me tooth and claw — but I also expect them to treat me with respect.
On the other hand, diane, I do have to say that I’d be a little doubtful/dubious about this sort of thing too, though I would always keep in mind that people can post what they will. Missionary work — which is what sounds to be at the heart of this — has a very painful history in Africa and most other places on the globe. It can certainly be a force for good in the lives of people who are generally ignored by all others, but it often carries with it a very high price. So I can’t say I’m shocked — even on your word that this guy is doing good, and that is worth something — that there are people here that question whether this is the best way to proceed with charity work to Africa, and even some who are offended that this would be pushed here (I’m not, but given the history of missions worldwide, I can understand the offense).
That being said, I would never, ever question your motives on this, and I think you’re coming from a place of genuine caring.
We all pick our ways to help based on various criteria. Some of us will not fund nor think it is wise to fund missionary work as a means of aid. Others have different views. Personally, I will never give a damn dime or tiny item to the Salvation Army. Others do, and more power to ’em. We all draw those lines differently.
Rudeness is not excused, though, even by my personal feelings about the effects that missionary work has had around the world. We agree there.
But you also need to understand where the people questioning this stuff are coming from, and why no matter how much they might respect you, they’re not going to support something they vehemently don’t believe in — and are even going to question whether it’s appropriate. Note that I think it’s a fine topic, even given my (actually very, very negative) feelings on missionaries/religious charities abroad. But it’s a worthwhile debate, so long as it is done respectfully.
Best wishes and I mean no ill to anybody.
Now how did this get to be about missionaires and helping them or funding them…never one bit about that and do you understand I am not asking anyone to help anyone at this moment…I am talking about the past and what I tried to do then..and the fact that I have had to explain this so many times tells me that it’s not being heard. Hey as far as I am concerned anyone can throw their money anywhere they want, trust whomever you want, buy your magazines and treats and smokes and liquor, trust all the other members of this site to be honest (oh wait not all) but for heavens sake don’t take the word of this one person from Africa, (who I have known longer than any of you and more personally than most of you, and that’s what it’s looking like, and don’t throw a dollar his way lest he waste it on food or some other such frivolity)…who knows he really could live in some nice cushy place like Iraq.
Anyway, I am tired of all of this, tired of talking and soon I will have to leave, so maybe I’ll see you all later, maybe not. We’ll see.
and don’t throw a dollar his way lest he waste it on food or some other such frivolity
You know this from personal experience. We don’t. And many of us are extremely skeptical of religious-based help in developing nations. For good reason, which is somewhat outside of the scope of this diary, and to a depth at which no matter how much we respect you and take your motives and word as being wonderful, we’re not going to stop being extremely skeptical.
That is an undertone (or sometimes an overtone) to the criticism here.
As to your point about rudeness/tolerance: I do, overall, agree with you. But I think that what amounts to an ad here for a type of thing that many posters, including me, have some problems with — and yes, missionary work is at the center of that — was bound to meet some serious criticism. It saddens me that that criticism gets too emotionally-driven and pissy sometimes.
I would love to see a discussion of the pastor’s work, preferably with him involved. I would love to see a respectful conversation about the place of religion in helping developing nations, if there is one, from a left-wing perspective.
But the post as it was, I wasn’t bothered — but I understand why some folks here made their negative opinions known, though I will also add that I understand where you’re coming from as well.
Again, I mean all of this with great respect both to you and to the others here with which you’re disagreeing. These arguments do tend to get magnified, amplified, on the web — it’s a very hard medium in which to disagree well, without stomping on each others’ feelings.
Please be well. I hope to see you later.
Spit, I appreciate your thoughtful words, but perhaps you misunderstand….I am not talking about, never was, nor was he ever talking about funding any religious group, or missionaires, he is a person outside of the group that he happens to be involved with, I know him only in that context.
My project, was about helping this one man, who would then involve his family group, his personal family group in a co-op tiny business, which perhaps he could grow into something more substantial and thereby help not only himself, but others as well, and yes with the pay it forward philosophy..
Further I should add that he has not gone any further in his planning due to the lack of interest and I never intended a blind offering…I asked him to produce detailed plans, cost profit ratios, etc.expertise and so on before I would begin the real part of the project, trying to acquire funds., he did send me many details but I have shelved the plan for now. I nor he has the time to spend on something for which there is no interest and is taken to be a possible fraud.
Really I am quite sorry that I ever brought him or this subject to this site, as I said I will only deal with this in future on Village Blue.
Thank you for clarification. Again, I more or less missed this whole thing, so in many ways I should probably stay out of the argument. It’s just tough sometimes to watch people talking past each other and not say anything about it. I see your point — the post itself seemed very different from what you’re describing as his goals in this. Which happens sometimes, and there’s no judgement here on my part, at any rate.
Righty then, I’m off to bed. Take care and don’t let sometimes hasty things said by all “sides” on the web getcha down too much.
Actually the diary he posted and my project are two different things, one has nothing to do with the other…That just came up in the course of conversation.
Take care yourself…and hugs to you.
of PastorLincoln’s past diaries and comments here at the BooTrib. I can’t help but think that the current Diary that he posted was sent out to everyone that he has on his Buddy list or friends that he has made through Email. I seems it has been months since he has posted a diary here and then the lastest “Newsletter Diary” shows up. It seems to me this was a mass mailing that he sent out to everyone. I think he probably doesn’t understand Blogs and how personal they are. I wish the conversation could go back to his need to cloth his family, toys for his kids, and other items that he has let us know he needs. This does seem like something that the bloggers could help out with as opposed to sending Money. In the past he also was trying to figure out a way to make money with either farming or raising Pigs or Chickens (he should really forget the chicken thing with Birdflu running around the world). I didn’t think Parkers idea was bad at all. I do think Parker was trying to help with the suggestion and posts in regards to Orgs that help in that part of the world. Also because it has been a while since PastorLincoln had posted a diary here, the latest one with talk of healing and stuff seemed, to say the least, Bizarre. I wish your response would have been a bit more understanding of peoples concerns and your lastest diary would have linked to past comments and almost a new introduction to Lincoln and maybe ralling the troops to send clothes or gifts to him and his family during the holiday season. The whole “Healing thing” really turned me off, but when I went back and read the entire history of Lincoln and your past relationship with him It really warmed my heart. I hope you will not discourage him from posting here and reconsider a new introduction of PastorLincoln to the Community and do let him know that Diaries like the last one that he may have mistakenly posted are not a good idea to post at Blogs. We in the US can only think of Snakeoil salesmen/ Aimee Semple McPherson/Con-artists from the Depression Era all the way up to Jim and Tammy Faye and Jimmy Swaggert. You know the old radio shows…” For all you sick folks out there in RaidoLand…Go into your cookie jar, take out a $5 bill, send it in to us, Jesus will bless you, then put your hand on the radio and you will be healed”. We are no longer the innocent country that we use to be. Sorry to say. I really did feel something for PastorLincoln reading his entire body of writing here at the Trib, however this mass email diary that I believe he mistakenly sent did not show him in the best light. Everyone deserves a second chance.
Hi, I am so tired out but just wanted to say I will write more about your comment in the morning..
Where is Superman when you need him to fly counterclockwise around the earth really really fast to turn time back a couple of days?
SHeesh I’m so frustrated reading this diary and the original one…with people getting their feelings hurt, and misunderstandings everywhere.
The Golden Rule on this site is “don’t be a prick.”
People were pricks to pastorlincoln and are now being pricks to other members. Can we just stop this and have a cup of tea or smoke a joint or something and come back in a few days?
This is a train wreck.
It’s International Hug Day a day early in the cafe. Come on over.
Man Eegee!
two thirds of our healers/wide-armed-and-can-hug-the-world people are in a tizzy, and the other third is not here.
what to do, what to do. sigh
I am not a hugger, but I can give everyone a nice pat on the arm?
Where is he anyway, I have been wondering that all day…has he been sighted..
Not to fear nanette, it will all work out one way or the other…
Hugs to you
I haven’t seen him… hope he’s off having fun and is not down with another migraine.
I’m sure everything will work out too 🙂
(pat, pat 😉
thx for the warm thoughts. I’m sorry that I wasn’t around (I think). It hurts me to see so much strife, but I can understand why it is happening. All I can offer to anyone that crosses my path is a bridge and an olive branch. If they choose not to take it then there’s nothing I can do about it. It’s good advice, if I do say so myself. 🙂
Peace to you and everyone else that is hurting or angry.
Soo…after being offline for a day and a half, I settle in to catch up on my favorite gathering places. Last time I was here there was a Shirl/Diane/Community love-in going on here, now look as THIS fine mess. Sheeeshus!
My personal reaction has nothing to do with any of the people involved: it was…”Well..chalk up another win for religions ability to drive poeple to war. ”
You always have just the right words, Scribe.
Hugs
Shirl, you know better than to encourage me. Now I need to say some more!
I can empathize with everyone on all sides of this one. I can relate totally to Madmans outburt since I am subject to the same desire at times, to scream at the top of my lungs..”IS THERE NO WHERE I CAN LIGHT WITHOUT HAVING CHRISTIANITY BREATHING DOWN MY NECK?! Seriously! I can’t get on the elevator in this building without someone asking me, “Are you taking coommunion this afternoon?!” and I don’t dare leave my apartment on Sunday mornings for fear of being swept up in the crowd of old folks racing for the church buses lined up outside. I sure do wish Christians could be more content with the right to practice thier faith in thier own lives, and leave mine alone. I usually don’t even read clearly designated religious diaries because I’ve had so much of it I am ready to spin my head all the way around and projeectile vomit great gushes of green stuff like Linda Blair did!
I understand how anyone new to the internet who may not know all the ‘unwritten rules” of it, could unadvertanly piss off a whole bunch of folks with diaries like the one that triggered all of this. It hurt my eyes too and brought back some pretty ugly old memories.
I can also relate to believing fervently in a good cause, or in good people, and being really hurt and angered when they are treated in disresepctful ways, especially by people I trusted. I have been also known many times, to fire shotgun blasts at a whole crowd, trying to hit one or two targets!
I see no one here trying to censor what can be posted here, honestly, I just don’t. I see some people reacting strongly to one one diary that some found inappropriate and offensive. Period. Happens all the time on blogs: there is NO way to make people stop doing this, nor, in my opinion, should there be, in an open forum. I sure as heck don’t see where anyone is telling anyone they can’t post on religious or spiritual topics, or any other topic. I’ve seen with my own eyes how well diaries on various spiritual topics have been received received here.
I’m also doggoned if I can see anything but respect and admiration for both of you, Diane and Shirl, here on Boo, and lots of it, since I came on board. If i may be so bold, I suggest that’s pretty good evidence you have made made an good investment of your energies here. It would be a shame if you judged this whole community blog and left, because a few of us disappointed you iwth our rection this time.
It’s be a fine world if we all COULD react respectfully to each other ALL of the time, but we’re a long way from that lofty goal. Meanwhile, we do the best we can to hang together, in spite of differences, **if hanging together is what we really want to do. If it’s time to move on from a place, then that too is often intended, because theres another place or adventure calling. None of them, however,will be “perfect” places, as long as they are populated by messy mortals!
Ok, now I’ll shut up. 🙂
i just caught up….like watching a toilet overflow, fascinating yet horrifying.
every single comment that became an issue was a reaction to personal feelings of surplus powerlessness.
if i were the queen of the universe (i bet you are glad im not) id ask everyone to recite the serenity prayer (without the god part) and work on getting a little seremity in their lives today
because tomorrow you could get hit by a bus
how do you want to spend your last day on earth?