Steve Clemons pointed me to an interesting article by
Howard Fineman about the Winners and Losers in the Abramoff scandal. Fineman fingers the losers as: Members of Congress, the Republican Party, the DeLay-Hastert Crowd, and the Bush-Rove White House. He sees only two winners. Advocates of public integrity now have momemtum for reforms. The other winners?
Third-party reform movement: If Sen. John McCain doesn’t win the Republican presidential nomination, I could see him leading an independent effort to “clean up” the capital as a third-party candidate. Having been seared by his own touch with this type of controversy (the Keating case in the ’80s, which was as important an experience to him as Vietnam), McCain could team up with a Democrat, say, Sen. Joe Lieberman. If they could assemble a cabinet in waiting — perhaps Wes Clark for defense, Russ Feingold for justice, Colin Powell for anything — they could win the 2008 election going away.
It would be amazing if an ultra-Centrist party emerged as a reaction to the excesses of the Bush administration and the rampant corruption of the Republican Congress. I’d be a lot more impressed by a McCain-Feingold ticket than I would be by a McCain-Lieberman ticket. Either way, it would represent a coup by the Washington insiders over the activists of both parties.
In this scenario, we might see something like this:
The GOP activists reject a McCain presidency and nominate Sen. George Allen of Virginia. Propelled by her popularity with minorities, core democrats, Clinton loyalists, and the Establshment, Hillary captures the Democratic nomination. And the McCain-Lieberman joins up in some kind of reform-morality ticket.
My gut tells me that Allen would start out in third place and would have little chance of doing better than second place.
Of course, in this situation progressives are truly screwed. But Hillary could perhaps bring us back into the fold by selecting Russ Feingold as her running mate. That would be a nice nod to the grassroots, and it would allow her to claim a reforming platform to compete with McCain’s.
Who would win in such a showdown?
It’s hard to say. But I think Fineman might be right that one plausible reaction to the current partisan impasse in Washington is the election of the radical-centrism represented by a third-party victory of McCain-Lieberman.
Let’s hope that doesn’t happen.
all those “winners” would be kings.
you Fuckers! You better get yourself up there Filibustering or I wanna see your “support from lobbyist” list! I’m sick of this shit!
You better get your big girl panties on and get the hell up to that podium!
Bipolar disorder you got going on too!
Hey, what are they supposed to do, announce it beforehand so they can be called obstructionists who won’t even give a loser a fair hearing? The f-ing better filibuster that right-wing loserbag. I’ll be screaming lungs out if they don’t filibuster.
about what people say about them though! Look at George Bush and all the shit he has done and half the country thinks he’s just grand just because he’s an asshole. He looks all tough! I think we could use just a couple of assholes of our own to play good cop bad cop with! You know, a couple of rabid freaky Democrats who we have to act like we are reining in. They could all run back to the cloak room and crack up laughing hanging onto each other, you know fuckin Frist and his bunch have been having a gay ole time of it over cigars…..laughing their butts off!
The crowd roared and stood applauding the day Harry Reid shut down the Senate.
Before we yell filibuster too hard, let’s see what we get out of the Judiciary Committee hearings. At present they don’t seem to be shaping up to be a rubber stamp kissy-face session for Alito. I emailed my Senator Feinstein to ask the tough questions and agitate for a NO vote from the Committee. I also told her to filibuster if the nomnation got out on the floor of the Senate. The next couple of weeks are going to be “interesting.”
…That unwittingly shifts all American politics to the right spectrum.
I still cannot understand how you people that consider yourself to be politically astute can mention names like McCain, Lieberman, etc., and the word Centrist in the same breadth.
This is a complete failure of the American political system when even the educated people refer to right wing politicians (regardles of how moderate they may be considered in American politics) as “Centrist”.
Call them what they are:
Moderate right wingers.
I am a Centrist and most of the Dem party’s politicians are to the right of me. Never mind how far to the right of candidates like McCain, Lieberman, Hillary, etc, all are.
Don’t frame them as “Centrists”. They aren’t.
Especially when you are the type of person that hates using “frames”… Eh, BooMan? lol jk (Kindof sortof 🙂
I hate framing.
They are centrists. These are the centrists in the Senate. You can ask me to call them all right-wingers for framing purposes, or you can accept the current state of ideological parity in this country for what it is.
7 Republicans:
* John S. McCain III, Arizona
* Lindsey O. Graham, South Carolina
* John Warner, Virginia
* Olympia Snowe, Maine
* Susan M. Collins, Maine
* R. Michael DeWine, Ohio
* Lincoln Chafee, Rhode Island
7 Democrats:
* Joseph I. Lieberman, Connecticut
* Robert C. Byrd, West Virginia
* E. Benjamin Nelson, Nebraska
* Mary Landrieu, Louisiana
* Daniel Inouye, Hawaii
* Mark Pryor, Arkansas
* Ken Salazar, Colorado
McCain:
Rated 0% by NARAL, indicating a pro-life voting record
Rated 0% by the ACLU, indicating an anti-civil rights voting record
Rated 61% by the US COC, indicating a mixed business voting record
Rated 29% by CURE, indicating anti-rehabilitation crime votes
Rated 45% by the NEA, indicating a mixed record on public education
Rated 53% by the LCV, indicating a mixed record on environment
Rated 83% by the Christian Coalition: a pro-family voting record
Rated 100% by CATO, indicating a pro-free trade voting record
Rated 25% by APHA, indicating a anti-public health voting record
Rated 0% by SANE, indicating a pro-military voting record
Rated 15% by the AFL-CIO, indicating an anti-labor voting record
Rated 40% by the ARA, indicating a mixed record on senior issues
Rated 72% by NTU, indicating “Satisfactory” on tax votes
By what measure is this guy a centrist? The only measure that makes him a centrist is if you ignore the left.
When you call them Centrists (they are not) you are playing into a right wing frame.
Regardless of whether they are in the Senate or not, they are not Centrists. They are moderate right wingers. Or, if you would prefer, moderate American politicians.
Call them what they are or the American political landscape will continue to sit eternally in the right spectrum.
They are moderate right wingers. That is not a frame. That is a fact.
when you apply the word centrist to a politician, you mean they straddle the fence on certain issues, they buck their own party and leadership on certain issues, that they are occassionally a vocal critic of their own party. That they cross the aisle every know and then.
You are objecting to another meaning of centrist, which implies that being a centrist means that you are representative of the majority of the people in the country.
We all know Congress if far to the right of the people, as so too is its center.
I am a Centrist: supporting or pursuing a course of action that is neither liberal nor conservative.
I believe in LEFT WING social issues (IE: The Green party, and Naderite platforms), and RIGHT WING political fiscal issues (IE: The Democratic parties platform).
I believe that there has to be a healthy balance of the social and fiscal issues and I cross-over from “left-leaning Centrist” to “right-leaning Centrist” based on the social issues and whether they are fiscally affordable. And make no mistake on this issue, the Dem politicians are to the right of me on almost all of the issues. Most of the Dems are right wingers.
Nowhere else in the world do they abuse the name of Centrist to represent “moderate right wing politics” except in the USA.
And that is a GOP right wing frame.
And you are playing into that GOP right wing frame. And you are also inviting the wrath of Centrists from around the globe! lol 🙂
This is the same frame that makes Americans’ refer to politicians that are “right-leaning Centrists” as the fringe “far left of the Dem party” thus negating any possibility of a real liberal ever being considered for office.
And it is also the reason that the American politicians (as you point out) fall so willingly into the right wing spectrum regardless of where the average Americans’ political leanings truly lie.
If you, a self-professed progressive/liberal, are willing to call them “Centrists,” how in the heck do you expect to ever get a real liberal in office? You know, a progressive/liberal that is to the left of all of the Dem party politicians?
I am not framing. You are failing to recognize and re-enforcing the GOP right wing frame that you are stepping in everyday.
no.
you are bullying me to use language that is not accurate in order to reframe the debate.
A centrist is a politician, not a voter. A centrist is a person that tries to bridge the divide, regardless of where that divide is.
I don’t think there is even such a thing as a centrist in parliamentary systems. Does anyone use that language in those countries? Even about themselves?
I won’t be bullied into using other people’s frames.
no bullying, but you will make the vast majority of politically uneducated people to left of the socalled centrists think those candidates are good to vote for, because most voters view themselves as moderate/centrist. Indeed I think these right wingers invented the term centrist to do precisely that.
you are bullying me to use language that is not accurate in order to reframe the debate.
Oh PUHLEEEZE…
You know that I would never bully anyone to change their opinions. But I will point out facts.
Centrists are people, not just politicians. I will give you minor props for tacking the word RADICAL on to the title… But you drop that frame even in your day to day discussions of supposed Centrists (Like all Americans do).
Why only the minor props for tacking on “radical”?
Because that is just a way of further marginalizing the left (in US politics) from typical American politicians. That would be the Centrists that are to the left of even (most of)the Dem politicians.
I am not demanding that you change your POV… But I do ask that you understand how the term Centrist is being abused even when you tack on the “radical” word. (“Radical Centrist” is a term that denigrates the ideal of true Centrism)
There are many centrist organisations around the world. I call myself a Liberal just so the average American understands that I am to the left of their spectrum. And I am.
You aren’t the average American BooMan. And you don’t like framing. Understand that even the words “Radical Centrist” is just an American morph to develope a frame. Just as the abuse of the term “Centrist” to describe moderate right wingers has become.
The “arguable” part is among non-Centrists. Centrists will tell you that the word “radical” was developed and tacked on to marginalize true Centrism.
The left has been marginalized in the USA. Now they want to marginalize Centrists.
What was it Abramoff said?
“Our job is to completely eliminate the left.”
They have won that one hands down as liberals now call themselves “progressive” and move to the right.
“Who’s next?”
Centrists…
How do we do that?
“Make them radical dude!”
And now even the left calls moderate right wingers Radical Centrists.
Whoops… There goes the center of the political spectrum in the USA. And flushed down the drain by the left as well, no less!
I am not telling you (or bullying you) to stop using those words. But do stop and think about it for a while. When moderate right wing politicians are even remotely refered to as Centrist, with or whithout “radical” attached to them, it marginalizes the left even further. And it is a very well developed frame.
No matter how you look at it, it marginalizes the left.
If they weren’t right-wingers, they wouldn’t be in Congress. They would be:
arguing with airport officials about being on some list or other
not been seen for some time, whereabouts unknown, no clues
emigrating to somewhere else
asking if you can hide them in your basement
sitting in pajamas, blogging, never with their back to the door
No, I can’t say that all of those folks are Centrists.
Maybe a look at the voting record might help but it can’t be a sole factor for decision. Their actions since 9/11 have to be taken into consideration along with any uncompromising position they might hold.
I agree, guys like McCain & Lieberman are not centrists — they just play them on TV.
and they don’t even play them well… certainly not prime time centrist portrayals… more like after-school movie of the week parts…
Frankly, I do not want hillary or her like in at all…the dlc has got to go! I will not vote for mccain either.
I think the end of the time of the lobbyists has got to be taken seriously. They have not gotten anyone but misery for their doings. I know they have not done one damn thing for the nurses. I refuse to pay any dues to them to have it squandered on lobbyists who do nothing for us. This started way back in the early 80’s. as far as I am concerned it is a racket. one can not get audience with their representatives or senators or their ear I should say without $$$$$$$ and lots of it. This is not how it should be.
Now to Alito, we have got to stop this nomination asap! It will take a coordinated effort from us all to get the job done, I am afraid. Hell yes they should filibuster him!!!! in a heart beat.
He can’t be serious, this looks like another
SCREW
in the coffin of democracy. Shit like this makes me wonder why I even bother w/ politics after 40 years of being on the pointy end…what a maroon.
Peace
Just what I have been predicting.
Bush Lite.
Pigs.
AG
We already have a radical centrist party. It’s called Democrats. Just what is this new party going to run on? Look at me, I’m to the right of Hillary? Just who would they attract? Most of the Dem and indy Hillary haters (myself included) hate her rightwing pandering, not her “leftism”. There’s no reason Dems couldn’t cash in on any reform sentiment, which does not really exist at the moment except in the “minds” of the pundits.
Fineman assumes that a lightweight bunch like McCain/Lieberman would win where much better people than they failed miserably. Nader had many flaws, but no one can say he didn’t campaign on a reform platform, twice.
And Feingold would have some reason to join forces with McCain, presumably because they co-sponsored a bill once? Can we look forward to Jessica Simpson’s views on cosmology soon? Sorry, but it really gets irritating to see brainless pundit crap like this treated as something worth noting, when there are so many folks out there who actually know how to think.
Totally agree.
With all the important things out there we need to talk about, this ranks somewhere below my hemmorhoids (sp?).
No way! Do we need a third party? Yes, we have for a long time. Do we need another bunch of right wing whatever you want to call them? Fuck NO! McCain/Lieberman? I held my nose on Gore/Lieberman. I will never vote for any “centrist” because I do not beilieve there are any.
Fiengold at this point is the only one I am looking at. Fiengold/Boxer would get me excited. How about you all?
Yeah, that’s what I’m talking about.
Just off the top without much thought, how about H Ford Jr, from Tenn, I think, as fitting into this group?
Feingold/Boxer will not get me excited — but they would get my vote. McCain/Lieberman would not get my vote, they would get my active opposition.
Who could you get excited about? I am all ears. I haven’t made up my mind at all. Too early for that.
Doing my best impression of DuctapeFatwa: The only people who I could get excited about would not be allowed to run.
But I am definitely willing to throw my support & what dollars I can afford into campaigns that I think have a chance of stemming the damage, slowing it down, giving us a chance to re-think the deadly direction we’ve been moving in for decades now. And Feingold/Boxer would be, imo, better than most of the field who will be allowed to run.
I hear ya Indy! I just want some semblence of hope but refuse to hold my nose again too.
Fer pete’s sake, Lieberman is one of the biggest whores on the hill- in either party. He’s been suckling at the tits of tobacco, insurance, and other lobbies since he was a two bit hack sleeping his way into the money needed to buy a Senate seat. The only thing centrist about him is that he is a whore for anyone with money.
it is humorous to think of Lieberman as a natural vehicle for reform.
However, I can tell too many of us have been drinking our own kool-aid when I see our 2000 VP candidate characterized as not merely a loser and a suck-up, but also as somehow so right-wing as to disqualify himself from the label centrist.
Lieberman is virtually the definition of centrist in our political climate.
Maybe some of you think being called a centrist is a compliment. It’s true many voters wish there was less partisanship and more cooperation. But no one admires a centrist.
Calling yourself a centrist is almost the equivalent of calling yourself a loser.
Regardless, in today’s Washington Nixon would be indisputably a centrist, and so is Joementum.
You assume wrongly the the blogger community represents ordinary voters.
voters? or citizens? there are a lot more of the latter.
I actually am making the same charge as you. We have several people saying the McCain-Liberman isn’t a centrist ticket but a right-wing ticket. Actually, they are both. They are to the right of the populace, and at the center of the electorate.
And, I think they would come in at least 2nd place, with an even money chance to win.
They are to the right of the electorate on the war though. They have very little chance of winning if you talk about their political agenda rather than where it sits on the Washington Strategic class bizzaro spectrum.
I’ll agree that he is quite moderate, even liberal on quite a few issues- certainly to the left of quite a few Senate Dems. Even taking into account his whoring, he’s closer to the middle of the Democratic Party than he is to the political center of the nation. So the only aspect of Joementum that I would consider indicative of “centrism” would be his utter corruption.
Please forgive me if I’m repulsed by the idea of an “anti-corruption” “centrist” ticket that is basically only distinguishable by being comprised of men who are such whores that they can be bought heart and soul so cheaply that anti-corruption laws are not offended.
I’d go to hell and back for Ben Nelson, Mary Landrieu or any other Democrat who happens to live on the right side of the spectrum. But Joementum? He can go F*** himself. He’s a shonda fur the goyim as my granny does say.
Back in 1988 I was furious at my liberal friends from CT who road tripped back home to vote for Lowell Weiker to try and keep Joementum out of the Senate. Ah.. time wounds all heels and to know Joe is to loathe him.
by pretending the Abrahamoff scandal is unrelated to the war. The socalled radical centrist, aka neocons, are the problem, and a McCain Lieberman ticket sure as heck wont fix it. That is like addressing the corrupt teedledee by replacing him with tweedledum.
BTW, having given in to Lindsey Graham on the torture amendment McCain actually legalized the practice of torture in the US. It was probably the plan all along, since he holds up Israel as an example and in Israel torture is actually legal owing to the inabilty of Palestinians to bring charges against their torturers.
I sincerely believe that at some point the viability of the national Democrat Party will be threatened a third party movement, but it sure as hell won’t be led by McCain-Lieberman.
A Howard Dean – Ron Paul ticket would make for some interesting conversation.
We don’t need a centrist third party, we need a conservative one because the party of blockbuster deficits and intrusive spying on it’s own citizens sure as hell doesn’t qualify.
they favor the stockholders.
We don’t even really need a new Process. What we need is a new Product, or rather the resurrection of an old Product, i.e. the New Deal.
Democrats used to be the party of social solutions to social problems. Over time too many of our leaders bought into the Reagan slogan “Big Government is the Problem”. Which is a bunch of self-serving crap that only serves to shove money up the income ladder. And produces shitty results besides.
What we need is to push for and elect politicians that will pledge to return this party to its roots. Which when I look out there pretty much means Feingold.
And BTW Harold Ford Jr has been a huge failure. God help anyone who stood between him and his rush for the center.
I do not know where you are from, but I so agree with you! I am from Tennessee and I know of this man and he is not what we want in the senate, let alone in the house. Thank you for recognizing this.
McCain could team up with a Democrat, say, Sen. Joe Lieberman.
If this possibility weren’t so depressing and horrible and the inevitable consequences would not result in the deaths and suffering of so many people I would be giggling at the notion that (spit) McCain and (spit) Lieberman weren’t themselves corrupt.
What’s ‘radical’ about ‘centrists’? That said, I embrace the notion of the DLC forming a third party or becoming the republicans they always were.