[…]
the issue of the holocaust and questions about it are not solely the province of nuts, anti-Semites and hate mongers.
Soj at BooTrib
Soj’s remarks illustrate a common misunderstanding of Europe’s laws against Holocaust denial. In reality, raising serious questions, examining the issues relating to the Holocaust is not illegal. On the contrary, it is a thriving academic subdiscipline with many articles and books being released each year. What is illegal is denying the basic facts, and the only ones who risk prosecution are racists. Let me explain, starting with what is and what isn’t a matter of debate, and from there go on to the question of Holocaust denial.
The Holocaust is arguably the single best researched event in Western history. Hundreds, maybe thousands of historians have devoted large portions of their lives to understanding what happened, how it happened, and why. There are also countless memoirs devoted to the subject (more on this below). No single person could possibly read all the books and articles on the subject – that’s what annotated bibliographies, syntheses, and footnotes are for.
The research has amassed a body of incontrovertible facts, as well as other assertions that are subject to more or less debate. Examples of the established facts are that by the end of 1941 the German leadership had decided on the complete extermination of Jews in those parts of Europe under its control; that this decision was carried out with a ruthless efficiency leading to the murder of the overwhelming majority of Jews living in German occupied lands – roughly five to seven million in total; that the Germans steadily refined their technology of annihilation from mass shootings to an assembly line of death culminating in the gas chambers and crematoria; that many Jews died of starvation and disease before being caught up in the machinery of death.
There are also issues subject to considerable debate. A prominent one is the question of when the Nazi leadership decided that the Jews should be exterminated. Was it in 1941, in 1939, or was it always an essential part of Nazi doctrine, only waiting for the right moment to be enacted? On the one hand is the obvious fact that it was only in the fall of 1941 that the Germans began to kill Jews in a systematic manner. Before that there was plenty of persecution and violence but with the invasion of the Soviet Union came a qualitative change in Nazi policies. In the thirties their persecution of Jews in Germany and then Austria was directed and putting pressure on Jews to leave. The considerable violence that accompanied it did not take the form of systematic extermination. In other words it was a classic example of ethnic cleansing. At the end of 1940 they reversed course, blocking the flight of Jews from areas under their control. By the end of 1941 the policy of extermination was in full swing and it formed a sharp contrast to what had preceded it. On the other hand are the numerous writings and speeches by Nazis speaking of the need for the elimination of Jews from the world – a natural corollary of their belief that the Jews were the primary source of evil in the world, not so much subhuman but an anti-human parasitic element; a cancer that fed on, corrupted, and in the end destroyed all societies that it touched. Other debates include the relative roles played by the organized formally Nazi organizations like the SS apparatus and the traditional German civil and military bureaucracies; the relationship between the eschatological antisemitism of the Nazis and the much milder racism that was espoused to one degree or another by most Germans; was the Nazis’ antisemtism a source of their popularity or were they popular in spite of it… There are many such debates that will probably never be definitively settled, though varying degrees of consensus may be reached.
There are also details that are revised in light of new evidence – e.g. shifting the number of Jews killed in the mass executions of the early stages of the Holocaust vs. the numbers gassed in the death camps, the support by academics, specific policies in individual countries or ghettos. Nazi Germany was a highly bureaucratized modern state and it left behind an enormous pile of documents; since 1989 the archives of Eastern Europe have become much more accessible.
What is Holocaust Denial and why is it criminalized in Europe?
Holocaust denial is the rejection of the basic facts discussed in the first paragraph below the fold. Those facts are not subject to debate anymore than, say, that there was an attack on Pearl Harbour on December 1941, that the earth is not ten thousand years old, that the moon is not made out of cheese. That historians therefore have absolutely no inclination to debate those who deny those facts is not a refusal to allow for a free discussion of historical events but rather the natural feeling that there is no reason to engage obvious nutballs.
But, you might ask, why criminalize such statements? Nobody goes to jail for putting up a website asserting that the moon is made of cheese, if a politician said so we’d be a bit worried about his sanity, but we wouldn’t see him as morally abhorrent. The problem is that unless a person is genuinely clinically insane, the delusion known as Holocaust denial is virtually automatically tied to racism. That’s because it requires the person claiming that the Holocaust is a myth to come up with an explanation of why all experts in the field reject their beliefs as utter nonsense, why politicians in Europe and North America all accept the Holocaust as historical fact. The reaction to that reality is generally that they’re all in thrall to the Jews, that indeed the Jews secretly control all Western governments and universities. An example would be the Iranian president’s recent remarks, another, or for a no holds barred version go here. And that’s racism. Europe makes racist speech a crime, and as Holocaust denial, even when not initially motivated by racism, almost inevitably leads to racist beliefs, it is illegal as well. One can argue that freedom of speech should be absolute, that racists should be allowed to express their beliefs as they can in America. I would support that, but one cannot simply single out the ban on one specific form of racist speech. Nor is it fair to draw a strict analogy to Turkey’s restrictions on speaking about the Armenian genocide. Yes, both are restrictions on free speech, but there is a difference between making lies illegal, and criminalizing the truth, between laws against racist speech, and laws against anti-racist speech.
Note on survivors’ memoirs
Most popular knowledge of the Holocaust rests on the experiences of survivors. The stories are human ones, not the impersonal, dry accounts based on bureaucratic memos. They also satisfy a certain need for at least a partial happy ending – among the horror recounted, at least some survived. Unfortunately the experiences of survivors is generally not representative of the Jewish experience in Nazi occupied Europe. I’m not referring so much to the fact of their survival – though there is that, but to the way in which the experience of a survivor was mostly non-typical. Thus, for example, when we think of the Nazi death camps we think of the memoirs written by Auschwitz survivors. The problem is that what they survived was not the Auschwitz death camp (Birkenau) but the concentration camp. The latter was a slave labour camp where prisoners were held under such appalling conditions that they generally died within a year of arrival, but some lasted longer – a matter of luck, physical endurance, and resourcefulness. The death camp proper was a simple death factory – you arrived, were herded to the `showers’ (the gas chamber’, died, and were then cremated. There were several such camps, and with the exception of Auschwitz none had an attached concentration camp. The only survivors were a handful of slave laborers in Treblinka who managed to grab some guns from the guards and stage a revolt. Some escaped, a few of the escapees survived the war. Most survivors lived through the Holocaust either in hiding or passing as Aryans, an even more atypical experience than that of the former concentration camp prisoners.
.
Once again you pick a paragraph to highlight your argument, thereby damaging the person involved. You must be aware from experience, most readers do not follow links in a story. In this manner you continue to slander persons, I despise such behavior. Have you no empathy or social ethics?
In a previous comment I remarked:
Want to fight? Write your own diary and open the discussion … for you I suggest to start your own blog on this topic.
… That being said, I also think that this issue is too contentious to be spoken about freely in the United States as it has become an emotionally-laden nuclear bomb. There are other, non-jewish aspects of WW2 which are rarely mentioned or discussed, concerning German POW’s, Roma (gypsies), Poles and other Slavic peoples (esp Ukrainians), Communist party members (German) and physically handicapped people who also suffered greatly in WW2.
The Iranian president has issued many inflammatory, extremist statements. That being said, the issue of the holocaust and questions about it are not solely the province of nuts, anti-Semites and hatemongers.
Peace
-Soj
My reaction to your harassment :: Character Assassination :: Mine!
You will not find any of my comments added to your tribates in the future, I appreciate your reciprocal behavior. Thanks.
"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence. Everywhere I look I see women being mistreated and their oppression justified in the name of religion."
▼▼▼ READ MY DIARY ▼
Thanks for highlighting SOJ’s remarks. For those that only view the Holocaust as the extermination of ONLY the jewishpoints out either their ignorance of the Holocaust, or their own racism.
To forget the other 6 million non jew victims is unforgivable.
Marek, you are right about the facts of the holocaust, to the best of my knowledge (and I’ve read the old standards like Arendt and Shirer).
But you are strangely and malignantly wrong the way you have been striking out on this blog today. Maybe you need a nice nosh and nap.
I suggest you try to find a helpful friend, who is neutral on these issues, to read things through with you and help you see how you’ve leaped to overheated and false conclusions.
Being on the side of justice does not mean that every thought that crosses your mind is aligned with the will of God. (Forgive me…this last sentence is a little over the top…but I thought your writing had this flavor.)
Too bad one cannot edit comments. To be more precise, I’m aware that Shirer did not cover the holocaust very thoroughly. But he damn sure covered it. I remember my mother reading that book in the 1960s and being outraged to the point of screaming by what she learned about the holocaust.
i don’t have any desire to get into this debate and take sides.
This is what I will say. I think Marek has done an excellent job in this diary in laying out the facts about the Holocaust and Holocaust denial.
I think Hoffman is a rabid anti-jewish demagogue.
I don’t think anyone should be able to read more than 10 sentences of anything he writes without realizing this.
I have no idea why Oui linked to his articles, and Marek had a legitimate gripe about seeing those links used in any contect, or to support any argument.
But, I know Oui well enough to know that he did not realize who Hoffman was, or what he is all about. Just so everyone can get a taste, here is a typical excerpt of Hoffman:
With this cosmic dichotomy of good and evil comes the panic people feel in the face of crushing power. This is why Swiss bankers and German statesmen are laying down on their backs like timid poodles, baring their genitals to the snarling teeth of a ferocious junkyard dog, risking dismemberment in the hope that having submitted to such a degrading extent, they will be allowed to get up and return to the world of the living without having had to fight against so awesome a foe.
In such cases my sympathies are with the junkyard dog, not the cowardly cur.
What the bewildered right wing–now smitten with Y2K doom as their only hope of deliverance from their own failures of nerve and vision–never learned was that the remedy to our ills begins with the refusal to compromise with evil in our own personal lives.
The American right winger always imagined that he himself could swallow his pride and manhood for the sake of respectability and a career within the establishment, while covertly voting into the presidency a “Great White Hope” who would undo all the mischief which the collective cowardice of the right wing poodles had fomented. But Nature decrees that such people deserve to lose, for they have not the courage of their convictions.
As he was dying from liver cancer, the hideous Khazar pederast Alan Ginsberg was asked what single attribute characterized his life. “Absolute defiance,” he replied. This degenerate had taken on the whole of Western Christian culture since the 1950s, risking everything for his perverted fixations.
Thanks to that level of dedication and fearlessness, today we live in a society where homosexuality is the norm and normal people are derided as haters and “breeders.”
Oui supports none of this nonsense.
So, please, let’s not accuse each other of bad motives.
.
You got a fast draw and beat me on this one.
I can’t recall seeing this quote or page ever mentioned in any of my comments or diaries. I used all search tools to no avail.
Kindly do me a favor and provide the particular instance and link you suggest I used for this quote. Thank you.
“But I will not let myself be reduced to silence. Everywhere I look I see women being mistreated and their oppression justified in the name of religion.”
▼ ▼ ▼ MY DIARY
I have studied the Shoah for many years, and yes, Hoffman is a disgusting, racist, sexist white separatist. I mean no disrespect to Oui, but for any serious scholar of the Holocaust to reference Hoffman indicates a disturbing lack of familiarity with the material. Everything Hoffman says, even seemingly innocuous assertions, must be viewed threw the lens of his visceral hatred of Jews Here’s a gem:
“While most Americans gazed sadly at images of the latest NASA disaster, neo-Nazis rejoiced at the loss of the space shuttle Columbia on Feb. 1. In their eyes, the multicultural shuttle crew ý especially its Israeli payload specialist ý deserved nothing less than total annihilation.
The Vanguard News Network circulated a cartoon of a hooded Klansman watching the shuttle explode and commenting, “Maybe ‘diversity’ really iz [sic] ‘Our’ strength.” On the Keystone State Skinheads E-list, “Keith” suggested, “Let’s put them all on a shuttle.” “Tom” of the neo-Nazi White Revolution echoed that wish: “Too bad that 14 million kikes weren’t on board when it went into sparkler mode.”
David Pringle, membership coordinator for the nation’s largest neo-Nazi group, the National Alliance, took a stab at cleverness by parodying a television ad campaign: “One Space Shuttle ý $4,000,000,000; One IsraHelli Asstronaut ý $10,000,000 in training; One IsraHelli Airforce pilot dying over Palestine, Texas ý Priceless.”
Holocaust denier Michael Hoffman took the location of the destruction as a sign of good things to come. “The symbolism of the Israeli ‘combat air force’ pilot blowing up in the approximate vicinity of Palestine, Texas, requires no embellishment or explications,” Hoffman wrote. “Rarely does what we might call ‘the hand of God’ move so dramatically in world affairs.”
Pringle and Hoffman’s gloating was notably similar to the celebratory Web page posted by the pseudo-Islamic Taliyah al Mahdi movement. “It is clear that there can be no coincidence in the remains of these traitors falling on ‘Palestine,’ Texas,” reads the page. “All Praise is due unto Allah for the execution of this Zionist and the indifferent criminals with him.”
Back in the neo-Nazi realm, Sean Cougar reminded the White Revolution E-group that rocket technology was created during Adolf Hitler’s reign and that a German, Wernher Von Braun, brought the technology to America. “[H]ow right is it that the first Jew in outerspace [sic] should perish,” Cougar commented. “Dr. Von Braun’s revenge?” “
As a relative novice to this subject I also have a lack of bias to accompany my ignorance. I’ve never doubted the Holocaust and after spending more time intensely researching it, I now realize why I did not do it before. The heaviness of spirit that comes with reliving such hatred and horrors has it’s effects.
The subject has to be addressed though or we are getting dangerously closer to repeating it. Hitler did not rise to the level of executive executioner without either the complicit assistance or scared inaction of the public and it’s leaders.
As early as 1933, in some cases before, Hitler was aggressively accumulating executive powers and began with the persecution of the mentally ill, the disabled, the poor, the unemployable, addicts-alcoholics, criminals and similarly perceived nonproductive groups. It appears that the early persecution of Jews by him was employed as political/social/legal/financial restrictions that while deplorable, were also not rejected by other countries. Other countries refused to accept some groups of Jewish people that were deported and essentially left them abandonded.
Hitler had international support in financing and could not have committed his horrific crimes without this support. He also had the support of specific industries in different areas and even went so far as to admit basing his eugenics programs on some laws enacted in the US in those times.
It was 8 years from his first action as Chancellor to the deplorable enacting of the final solution. How could the world stand by and allow that to grow before being forced into action?
I thought of including a discussion of whether the extermination of the European Jews should be considered unique, if so why and to what extent, and which other atrocities it can reasonably be compared to. But this is a controversial question which gives rise to heated emotions and I did not want to distract from the point of my diary, that is explaining which debates about the Holocaust are legitimate, which clearly aren’t, and why the latter are tied to racism. (The note on survivor’s stories was a bit of a digression but it somehow wrote itself so I decided to put it on at the end as a sort of extended footnote.) Just to make things clear, this is my personal take on the question, not an expression of a strong consensus. Some specific details are, others far from it.
An incomplete list of atrocities that are arguably comparable to the Holocaust includes the fate of Native Americans in the US, Belgium’s actions in the Congo, the Germans in Southwest Africa (present day Namibia), the extermination of the Roma during WWII, and the Rwandan genocide. Those which aren’t include what happened to the Poles during WWII, to the Ukrainians in the thirties, the Chinese at the hands of the Japanese or Mao, the Palestinians under the Israelis, the Bosnian Muslims under the Serbs, the Algerians during the Algerian War.
For American readers an analogy might be helpful. Occasionally one hears people complaining that one speaks too much about the discrimination against blacks in the Jim Crow South, and that one forgets that, say, the Jews and the Irish also suffered from pervasive discrimination. Of course they did, but to see it as being of a comparable level and nature to that of African Americans is ludicrous. On the other hand saying so about the Japanese and Chinese is arguable. However, arguable and comparable does not mean the same, and one could say that the differences were so large that it doesn’t make sense to see the two as equivalent.
What characterizes the comparable genocides is systematic slaughter that either clearly aimed at total extermination (with at least a semi-credible effort to do so) or even if that aim wasn’t clear it killed off at least a bare majority of the targeted group. Thus regardless of whether or not Americans aimed to exterminate all Native Americans or simply aimed at ethnic cleansing, the result was that most Native Americans died. On the other hand, whatever the Nazis long term aims were, there was no policy of total extermination of Poles during WWII, but instead one of reducing them to a nation of slaves and the total death toll was on the order of ten percent.
In my opinion the best argument for the uniqueness of the extermination of the European Jews is its motivation. It was done on behalf of an ideology that didn’t merely see them as subhuman, nor did it have practical aims such as getting territory. Rather it was carried out as the result of a metaphysical belief that a particular race was the mortal enemy of all mankind and that its extermination was necessary if humanity was to be saved. The best argument against its uniqueness is that regardless of motive, history has seen various examples of atrocities either aiming at or reaching close to total extermination and as a practical matter the details of the ideology that lies behind such acts are secondary to what actually happened.
And here is what you said:
You are continueing to exclude the non-jewish as a part from those who were exterminated in the Holocaust. I am starting to believe that you are doing this on purpose. Why do you ignore the nonjewish as having been exterminated in the holocaust???
The link for the Holocaust does not come up. It’s here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust
Gee whilickers……….am I ever confused. What the heck is all this about?
The fact of the holocaust has been established. As for how and why it happened, we have some pretty good information and records left by Hilter’s group in power at that time. Some presumed facts, will always be in dispute because of human nature. We can not be inside of Hitler and his henchmen’s minds as it was at that time, we can speculate and draw conclusions from actions and information still available, that is all.
Why and How did it happen? It is pretty easy because it is the unfortunate condition of human beings that they love to hate. They want someone else to blame for whatever they perceive to be amiss in their lives. On the small scale we point to each other and say, “it is your fault.” On the National scale we say, “It is the fault of those who we deem to be ‘different’ from us.” So we can blame the Jews, the Muslims, the communists, the liberals, the neocons, the Gays, the catholics, the born agains, the blacks, the mexicans, the asians, oh, I don’t know it seems the lists are endless. We just know for sure it can’t be our fault so it must be the “other tribes” fault.
It is the very basic attribute of ancient tribal righteousness. . .the tribe from the other side of the mountain talks differently from us, they dress differently from us, they act differently from us, they look differently from us, they cannot be in the right. Besides, what they have surely must belong to us. So lets kill the other tribe and take what they have because we know our tribe is the one that matters and it is our right to be right.
And isn’t it the most heart wrenching and disgusting acknowledgement that with all our supposed advancement and knowledge, all our technology, all our presumed brillance and education. . .that we have not taken ONE STEP forward from that ancient tribal fear and suspicion? Not Americans, not Europeans, not Asians, not Africans, not Arabians,. . . .NOT ANY OF US have advanced from that tribal idiocy! Yeah, we may use fancier words and greater disguises, but it is the same BS it always has been!
Frankly, times like these, I cannot wait to leave this planet.
If I took your topic in a direction you did not intend it, I am sorry. . .but this is where it and all the other rantings like it take me. . .back to basic human behavior. We can’t seem to get the “Let’s All Grow Up Gene” to evolve, can we.
In truth, our endless words mean nothing. We teach and show who we are by our actions. And our actions do not seem to match our words very much of the time.