This is an extension to a comment I made to Tracy’s diary, which just will not leave my head or let me sleep, and I don’t want to hijack hers.
It makes me think of Rizzo in the move ‘Grease.’
For lurkers who don’t know, this was a high school girl character who became pregnant, and sings a song that like this diary, crystallizes one of the most horrific American cultural values, ostensibly of the 1950s era, but in reality still quite prevalent.
Rizzo was not raped, but her song is about how the worst thing she could do would be to inform the boy she slept with of her pregnancy because it would ruin his life, the life of an innocent victim.Throughout this diary that is the theme that keeps recurring. Even though Tracy was the victim of a violent crime, it was culturally unacceptable for her to speak of it, to embarrass the rapist, to possibly cause him harm. Even the rapists’ wife, instead of being shocked and horrified, to say the least, to hear such a thing said of her husband, her reaction is to be angry at Tracy.
Tracy has violated a rule, crossed a line that women are not supposed to cross. It also made me think of another diary in recent days, about a victim of child sexual abuse who is considered to be responsible for her father’s death because she also violates this rule, this important cultural norm.
Tracy will have been considered responsible for her rapist becoming depressed, unable to run his business, and thus impacting negatively on his wife and children, if any, who did not commit a crime. Innocent victims, by anyone’s standard, but by community standards, they are not victims of the rapist, but of Tracy!
And then I thought of the popular actress, who revealed her own child abuse, and that she violated cultural norms only after a subsequent victim of her abuser, a child of fourteen, took her own life.
We cannot know, and I would rather not imagine, the guilt this actress will have until the day she dies for not having broken the rule sooner.
In recent days, there has been a lot of discussion about the societal perception of rape. While lip service is paid, it is simply not considered the horrendous crime of violence that it is.
Unless the victim is killed, in which case we see all the TV heads, male and female, decrying with great ardor the brutality of the attack, the danger the perpetrator constitutes to society, and all the outrage that we should be hearing when the victim is alive and talking.
Sorry to bring it up, but the Natalee Holloway case takes us down an even stranger road. For the 3 people in rural Mongolia who may not know more than they ever wanted to about this incident, Natalee mysteriously vanished on a graduation trip to a Caribbean island, and the last people to see her alive include a young man who claims to have had intimate contact with her, before leaving her alone on the beach. The young man and two companions were jailed during an extensive investigation (as is permitted under the laws governing the island) but nothing comparable to American “charges” have been filed, because, there is no evidence that any crime has been committed,
However the media coverage, and the public opinion among the sector of the US public who follow the case, is almost a mirror image of the traditional blame the victim attitude toward rape.
It is presumed, even taken for granted that the young man raped Natalee, her mother repeatedly states this as a fact. The young man admits intimacy took place, therefore says Natalee’s mother, he has admitted to rape because Natalee was a virgin, a born again Christian and an honor student, and the fact that the young man has not been prosecuted for this crime is proof that the island is corrupt. While one cannot help but sympathize with the emotional hell experienced by a mother whose daughter vanishes without a trace, the credibility accorded these statements, and the readiness and zeal with which they are echoed not only by other relatives and friends of the vanished teen, but the TV show talking heads and hosts and panelists is both remarkable and alarming.
Both from the media and the public, there is also a distinct note of property crime outrage. How dare this foreign scum rape our pretty American blonde!
On message boards devoted to the case, and there are several, people who suggest that whatever happened to Natalee subsequent to her time with the young man, it is possible that she might have engaged in consensual intimacy with him are immediately torn to shreds. Natalee was a virgin! a born again Christian! Who baby sat for special needs children! An honor student! A virgin!
As if anyone who caused her to vanish would be committing a lesser crime if she were not a virgin, nor a Christian.
For the record, I have no idea what happened to Natalee, or whether the young man is telling the truth or not. However the story illustrates a complete schizophrenic reversal of the usual trash the victim, defend the rapist behavior seen in cases where there is a live, talking victim, as well as all the forensic evidence any prosecutor could want.
Which brings me back to Tracy’s diary that will not leave my head. The consequences of women who talk.
There are a thousand reasons to report a rape, it seems absurd to even discuss the question, from a purely common sense point of view.
But rape victims, like the rest of us, more intensely than the rest of us can imagine, in fact, do not live in a reality based on common sense.
A woman who reports a rape assumes a host of risks, from the moment she opens her mouth. First, the humiliation and insults added to injury that we have heard detailed in the stories of all these brave women who have shared with us their deepest hurts. From law enforcement to medical personnel, even family members, friends, co-workers, neighbors.
A woman who reports a rape risks her marriage or relationship, her job, her friendships, even the friendships of her children.
Along with the horror, we have heard stories of good and noble and brave men, who have cared for and nurtured and helped to heal the woman they love. But not all men have the strength, the courage, the patience, sufficient self-love to put self aside, the ability, we should be frank, to love someone else enough to defend their lady’s honor by returning it to her, in spades.
Especially in cases that attract media attention, or in smaller communities, are simply in the mouth of the town, employers may have a host of excuses for suggesting that the victim “take some time off,” or simply dismissing her “for an unrelated reason.” Bad for business, a distraction in the workplace, security concerns. They’ve got a million of them, but their alleged reasoning doesn’t matter. The victim is out of a job, regardless.
We have also heard stories of women who stood by their sisters, helped save their emotional lives, in fact. Real friends, the kind you are lucky to count on the fingers of one hand.
But not all “friends” can be accorded such an honored place. Some may feel uncomfortable, maybe because of their own secret horrors, that they did not report, and do not want to be reminded of. It is sad to say, but some women also share the popular societal attitudes, and feel that the victim must have some sort of culpability, or they may doubt her veracity. Maybe they have some connection to the rapist, and just simply know he could never do anything like that because he babysits special needs children and is an honor student and a virgin. Others may have pressure from family, spouses, or both, to distance themselves from such a “sordid” situation. Even members of her own family may “feel differently” about her. They too may suffer from the stigma by association.
Stigma. There is no other word for it. There is a stigma attached to rape victims. It is terribly, horribly, unjustly wrong. It is based, however unconsciously by its perpetrators, on the idea of women as property. Damaged goods. Ruined.
Women who talk, as our brave Tracy did, risk being stared at, whispered about, ostracized. Incredibly, it is their reputation that is damaged by a situation like Tracy’s, where the woman speaks up for the terrified little girl (and in my opinion, raped high schoolers are little girls) who could not.
It is too late to seek the privilege of submitting to the humilation of submitting one’s undergarments for laboratory analysis, too late to undergo the unspeakable indignity of having one’s most intimate anatomy examined and documented, so that the rapist’s lawyer can suggest that any wounds were caused by feminine hygiene products.
Too late to sit on a hard wooden chair, on display for the townsfolk, out in force for the big sensational trial, and relive, recount for them all, all the details of the most profound horror a woman can experience, too late for the snide, sneering, insinuations that are objected and sustained, and heard and remembered by the jury.
But it was not too late for Tracy to tell the truth. It was not too late for her to tell the truth to the rapist’s friend, to his cousin the sheriff, to anyone who asked. For the sake of the little girl who could not, and just in case there might be other little girls, or even other grown up women, to whom a word to the wise might help them decide to keep well away from the rapist in the town, Tracy told the truth.
Among the many reasons that women should tell the truth are for the benefit and safety of their sisters who might become the rapist’s next victim. This is such a compelling reason that you see I have used the word “should,” which I probably should not.
That reason is so compelling, so obvious, that it is tempting to blame women who do not tell.
What it should tempt us to do, however, is contemplate the fact that there is no rape victim on earth who is unaware of this, who does not have as many nightmares about the unthinkable things that could happen to other women, or little girls, if she does not tell.
That should give us just an inkling of how compelling are society’s efforts to keep her quiet, the overwhelming and terrible power of stigma.
Excellent diary Ductape – thank you.
This kind of story needs more publicity. I hope your diary will lead to a productive discussion.
We all love the heroic tales of little people who fight the big enemy, but the sexual overtones of rape are what keeps it hush hush. Nobody wants to think that the thing that gives them so much pleasure can have any connection to violence.
I think the military is where we need to look at the problem of rape. After all, that’s where we teach our men to use violence to subjugate and dominate. Sometimes boys get that lesson, too. Girls learn early on that they are prey, though it’s easy to forget.
For people who are interested in thinking about the connections between militarism and rape, Cynthia Enloe’s writing is a great place to start.
Titles include “Does Khaki Become You? The Militarisation of Women’s Lives” and more recently, “Maneuvers.” She’s a fantastic writer and a fantastic activist.
Delurking to provide additional “food for thought.”
Not a pleasant read, but an insightful one.
Klaus Theweleit, Male Fantasies (2 vols)
until we stop blaming ourselves. I wrote a novel The Kiss of Judas back in 1996 as a catharsist. And that worked for me. I had try therapy and lost my voice literally for almost a month. That’s when I realized well since I can’t even talk about all those wrongs I might as well write about it. My therapist thought that would be a great method and she supported my effort.
Look at what is happening with the newest ‘big news story’ of the young grad student in NYC. First of all the media give it a name “The Grad Student Murder” and theme music. The horrific details of the crime make it spellbinding, because of course it has to be spellbinding to pierce the fog most of us live in.
At first everyone was sympathetic to the victim. She’s young, beautiful, white, a grad student, working toward a degree in criminal justice.
Then they begin to turn on her. Why was she out so late? Why was she drinking so much? Why did she leave one bar and walk to the other through a dangerous neighborhood. Why did she leave her friends?
Suddenly it is all about how she screwed up. How she forgot that she was prey. How she forgot that a woman cannot move freely through this world without inviting someone to brutalize her.
She forgot she was prey.
Doesn’t that just get to the heart of it? Why is it that so many men out there think of women as prey, who should be blamed if they’re attacked?
And the prey thing is something we live with all our lives. I remember being 12 and walking across the parking lot from the dock to the pool (I spent part of my summers living on a boat), and having guys drive up really slowly behind me and make suggestive comments…I was in freaking middle school! We always have to be careful not to get into situations we can’t get out of, but you can’t always tell what those are!
I also remember a guy I had known for while giving me a ride home from a party one night when I was about 16…I had to punch him to get him to remember the meaning of the word no and let me out of the car. But I guess I was lucky, because he was bigger than me and I’m not sure I would have been able to fight him off if that hadn’t worked. And of course, then he decided to repay the favor by telling everyone I was a slut.
I am wondering today if the next girl he drove home wasn’t so lucky.
Why is it that so many men out there think of women as prey, who should be blamed if they’re attacked?
Because if they didn’t, they’d have to take up responsibility for how men, as a class, behave. It would be a lot of work for them, in other words.
That catcalling shit started for me in junior high school, too. I was also 12. Far too many males in this culture seem to be under the delusion that sexually propositioning random pre-teen girls is acceptable behavior for full grown adult men.
“She forgot she was prey.” Talk about blaming the victim. A civilized nation has to be, by fucking definition, one in which people don’t have to think of themselves as prey.
Consider this. Aren’t boys, from the time they become interested in girls, taught that girls are prey? Something to be pursued, wooed, once hormones kick in, to be laid, married, etc. Every box office smash romantic movie is about the woman as prey being pursued by the man. Don’t we ever get sick of coy. The objectification of women starts when we are tiny boys and girls. Men are fooled too. They are taught that “catching” a girl will make their life complete. Apparently women get weak in the knees when their man says you complete me. What a pile of steaming horse feces. I got married the first time because my ex-wife was hot and I was stupid. I thought marriage was the end result of the pursuit, the hunting. I actually thought I was doing the right thing, and in the early 70’s that’s how it went.
I understand that rape is not about sex. But could it be that rape is the horrific fallout of how we objectify women as things to be pursued and possessed. How do we overcome this socialization? Isn’t this why the idiot SD legislator Napoli (I think that’s the name) would make an exception to the abortion law for a rape victim only if she was a good christian girl and a virgin. She hadn’t yet given in to the pursuit so she is the only blameless one. How sick!
“…that rape is the horrific fallout of how we objectify women as things to be pursued and possessed.”
Of course it is. You’ve nailed it.
And the whole virgin bullshit is: she either does it or she doesn’t. If she does, then she’d better do it with me and my buddies, too.
I suspect that if we asked all the men living those unexamined lives what they’d REALLY like, it would be individual, exclusive sexual access to all women….Oh, and all the other stuff. Woman and children as property is just another facet of greed.
SEXISM..RACISM..POVERTY..WAR: All the same thing.
It is part of the same ugly old story. Game to be bagged.
In fairness, the pursuit, hunter and hunted metaphor is found in popular literature and movies the other way, too, with references to “getting a man” or “catching a husband,” and while some of it, regardless of who is hunted and who is hunter, is not of harmful intent, but a humorous take on the interesting subject of romantic love, and the various shenanigans that people of both genders go through in the quest to find the right life partner.
However the cultural embed that you mention, of even tiny boys being taught, consciously and unconsiously, that little girls are prey, are property, is a very different animal.
And it is taught. As has been discussed with reference to race and ethnicity, small children are not born with this, either. Little boys do not naturally regard little girls as their property, and little girls do not naturally regard themselves as being of lesser value and needing the approval of little boys in order to have a successful game of tag or hide and seek, in which both boys and girls chase each other, according to who is “it,” and not any learned behavior about gender roles! 🙂
Yes. I saw this with my own daughter. Until junior high or so girls and boys played together as equals. Perhaps it’s puberty, more likely it’s socialization, but with junior high the standing of girls begins to change from things they do well to whether or not they have a boyfriend. One of the things I’m most thankful for is that my daughter didn’t buy into that, but the pressure was intense. I think she likened junior high girl society to that of a wolf pack.
at that age, to cease liking themselves as much, and take up the notions featured in the fashion magazines, becoming displeased with their own beautiful little budding minds and souls as they become with their little bodies, so many of which, by puberty, show little potential for developing into anything remotely resembling Paris Hilton.
It is then that they no longer love their little boy playmates, and consider them childish, as they begin to starve themselves and paint their hair and deplore their lovely little faces, because they do not resemble this or that fashion model or starlet just back from the bulimia clinic.
Now I know that little girls mature faster than little boys, and this goes on through life, men, for instance tend to finally say good bye to adolescence at around sixty or so, and so a certain amount of taking a new interest in hair styling and party dresses and considering little boys their age as mere children is natural, but I do not think it is natural for them to begin, at that or any age, to have less self-esteem, a condition that is hardly going to be of good use to them as they embark on those first “dates” and the invariable jousts with the invariable teenaged Lotharios, who, by the way, can be perfectly respectable teenaged Lotharios without carrying the activity into the realm of violent crime.
Rape, and the various nastiness that comes from the notion of women as property, as prey, has always been with us, and in every corner of the globe.
I do not deceive myself that this is a phenomenon of the shocking modern western world where the ubiquitous bared knee leads straight to Doom.
But these extremes of little girls, let alone their older sisters, actually ceasing to like themselves because they do not have blonde hair and long legs is not something that has always been with us, and while I do not blame it for rape, I do not think that it helps young ladies deal with it, and bite their thumbs at stigma, which in turn, could just be the key to their daughters not having to deal with it.
As usual, your insight is inspiring.
It is amazing that all girls don’t go completely insane at puberty, given the mixed messages and conflicting expectations.
We have to be both prey and bait.
In general, it is still a given that we will marry and have children. To do that we must attract men, weed out the bad ones, and pair up with a good one. Being second class citizens who are considered inferior, we have to try harder and make more concessions. Often we are working at cross purposes, with women looking for love, trust, and permanence while many young men want hit and run recreational sex. This is not surprising given the huge desparity in the consequences of sexuality.
Women are still valued primarily for how we look. To attract the best possible man (honest, trustworthy, kind, steadfast, intelligent, plus willing and able to provide enough finacial support to raise children), we have to be the best women we can be: pretty, compliant, and sexy in just the right kind of way. A disproportionate amount of self esteem is tied up in being pleasing to men, because for thousands of years, it was the only way women had to make a living. Sad to say, a boob job may still be a better career investment than a doctorate.
So we signal our willingness to enter the Look For A Mate Competition with our bodies, decorated in clothes and makeup and hairstyles, hoping to attract the right guy without being brutalized by all the wrong ones.
Add to the mix women’s very accurate perception that lots of men don’t consciously want to commit, but most will eventually. To get around that, we pretend that we’re just dating for “fun” so we don’t scare off a guy with great potential. This is tricky, trying to project a free spirit image, but not, like, slutty free, you know ? So in lots of relationships women are badly hurt, and the men who thought their connection was casual and temporary by mutual consent are surprised and dismayed that women get so angry with them.
Being a woman in this schizoid culture is such a precarious balancing act that we shouldn’t be surprised at anorexia, attempted suicide rates, unintended pregnancies and abusive relationships.
We are sending our girl children out into a minefield.
I printed out your comment for my 21 year old daughter.
The thing that jumped out at me was the delicate balance between prey and bait. Wow.
And so for the 900th time today, I wish I could give a 4 but the rate all button had already gone away by lunchtime when I checked the thread after posting it in the morning.
Ductape, I think you need to face the fact that 4s from you are subversive and the relevant authorities have moved to ensure that you cannot subvert the state, society and culture any more…
I will start posting my 4s in replies, and each 4 will have a secret coded message to sleeper cells. Watch.
4444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444
4444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444
[holds cut-out decoding mask up to screen and peers at all the ‘4’s] ummmn, I’m not sure that I’m getting the message… perhaps it was meant for one of the other cells.
I think the institutionalization of rape and “women as property” in societies of humankind began about 5,000-8000 years ago when men began working to replace the (predominately up until that time) female deities with male Gods. Up until that time women had far more power socially because they were always the keepers of the mysteries and the most powerful gods were female.
Now of course rape, like warmongering, is a more developed sickness; the lust for power mutated through sexual sadism and the pathetic need for cruelty in the quest for domination and control.
They are the witchburners, and they’ve never stopped trying to dupe women into feeling guilty as they are led to the stake.
Is there any major religion on the planet that, as practiced, doesn’t now hold women as less than equal to their male counterparts? If there is I can’t think of one.
politics, or do politics follow gods?
People who have devoted their lives to the study of ancient times, cultures, and gods debate this question, so I don’t know if it is one that we can settle here on this blog 🙂
What we can agree on, and hopefully understand and learn from, is that it was not always like this, just for the last several thousand years, at least the all over the world part, from what we know.
Just as man learned to use fire, plant crops, and form cities, he learned methods of gaining resources, war, and social control, and there is no more effective method of social control than the subjugation of women, with religion a close second, and put the two together and you have a tested strategy for success.
So successful that even a newer religion, like Islam, which sought to correct the abuses, has been unable to break through the preceding millennia of custom – custom that institutionalizes and enables that social control.
Both those who use Gods to advance their agenda and those who use politics to advance theirs use each other as cover for their own atrocities. More people have been murdered in the name of God, (usually in wars waged to extend political power), than for any other reason. Similarly, wherever theocracies flourish, laws that brutalize individual rights are legitimized under the religious umbrella. An unholy alliance, to be sure.
Politics and Gods are both, first and foremost, about power. Where it gets corrupted, in both religiosity and political structuring, is when those who experience power seek more of it by dominating others rather than combining the shared strength of all to empower the entire community.
This latter course is how the witchburners come into existence, along with the warmongers and the rapists and the pedophiles and the racists. And once these creatures establish a presence in society, they’re very hard to get rid of.
effective form of social control, religion is the most effective way of getting people to go kill other people to make you richer.
As you have summarized so nicely and concisely, moving away from that successful model is not easy. You call it power, I call it greed. At the level of human behavior we are discussing, I’m not sure the two are really different.
The question is, how can we, as humans, move forward from this? And can we do it in time to save ourselves?
We can see that the current situation is not sustainable.
Maybe what is needed is a Womens’ Revolution. 🙂
I see “greed” as a function of fear; the fear of “not having enough” mutated into this other institutionalized dynamic that compels us to grab all that we can even at the expense of our neighbor. It’s the manifestation of that Malthusian Doctrinal fear that, basicaly; “There’s not enough to go around on the planet for everyone so we must fight against each other for what little resources there are.” And it is this thinking that will be the downfall of “modern civilization”, as we are begining to see irrefutable signs of more and more often now.
“Power” to me is somewhat different that greed, though I see a synchronicity between the 2. The desire to dominate and control others is, like greed, a function of fear, but not one based on acquisition so much. Even though acquisition is often part of the power hungry dynamic, there’s more to power than that. The fear of not being important enough, not being relevant enough, the personal insecurity that accompanies all tyrannical aspiration, the need to have other submit to one’s will in order to feel important; these are the primary dynamics of the powermad. John Adams once remarked that “…nothing intoxicates the human mind so much as power”.
There are surely similarities between greed and lust for power, but the array of fears that drive these pathological conditions are different enough that we are likely best served by being able to draw distinctions between the two.
Wonderful, wise and erudite comments, sbj, here, downthread and every time I see your signature. You must be part of that sactimonious women’s studies set.
I hope you are published, because yours is a voice that should be heard.
Thank you for the extraordinary compliment Susanw.
I was never a “Women’s Studies” sort of guy, but I was extremely fortunate as an early teen to bypass much of the traditional “conditioning” so many of my peers had hammered into them.
I went away to an experimental, very progressive boarding school when I was 14, and by the time I became sexually awakened I had already learned that women and girls were equals. It never occured to me after that to regard women in any other, less equal or less valuable way.
If we could find a way to “deprogram” much of the youth today before the conditioning is so ingrained that it’s virtually impossible to neutralize, we could break this cycle of diminishing women. In a way we almost did it, for a short time at least, in the mid-sixties, but then the Vietnam War took over the public psyche and monsters like McNamara, Nixon and Kissinger seized the stage, in doing so squashing the momentum of the “Love Generation”. (Most people overlook this aspect of that time, but I believe, despite the cheesiness of some of the rhetoric back then, that we had achieved a new and powerfully good awareness about the value of respecting and embracing the wonder of each other, rather than seeking to dominate or divide ourselves against each other.)
Now that we’re on the cusp of being the first modern country to take a giant step back by reducing the rights of women and re-criminalizing private medical procedures, the decline of our society will accelerate at an exponential pace.
The only published works I have in recent times consist of about 60 letters to the editor published in various papers over the last 3 years. Many many years ago I wrote book reviews for a small fee, and my first item in print ever was about abortion rights in 1964 in a local NY publication right after the events I describe in my comment on this diary yesterday.
fear, that early man needed an instinct to make him pick more berries than the family could eat so they would not starve when berry season ended.
Today, however, what started out as a mechanism of survival has morphed and metastatized into the mortal enemy of species survival.
And since there is now enough to go around, the fear is not necessary. It may not be possible to remove that genetic marker for greed, but it would be possible to place limits and checks on it, and at the same time, educate people that there is enough for all and maybe improve things in a few generations, if we can survive that long.
Exactly Second,
People are now turning on her… judging her.
Kahli’s post below underscores what I feel… the snotty nurses, the women in the ER who looked away as if I was trash. The judgement.
I simply didn’t want to be raped by my peers, my neighbors or some lady at a store, by fighting, speaking out. I knew I had to heal physically and I knew that the rest of the healing would be a life long process.
Majority of America, now emboldened by the religious right, will only support VIRGINS. Which, to me, means that the judging is only going to be more… brutal.
I will say this – it was women who “taught” me that a rape wasn’t about what a crime … it was something that happned to you because of something you did, something you were, or … something you wore, or said, or drank. Women were the cruelest.
I think it was their way of distancing themselves from the notion that they themselves could be attacked. I think it’s some form of mental self-defense for the ignorant. That if they can sabbotage another rape victim and show her for something that the other woman doesn’t want to be IE “loose”, “liberal”, “riks taker”, “flirty”, “faithless”… then that might somehow prevent HER from being raped.
I dunno.
But I will say that the love and support here from both men and women, friends and new frineds has been so wonderful. Due to Bush I have to daily resist despair, the Boomanity here helped me find a bit more courage.
“Blaming the victim” is what the fearful always resort to when they need to make sense of and diminish the intensity of an event that scares them.
It’s closely related to denial as a defense mechanism; if they can convince themselves that someone’s behavior “brought on the attack”, then they can feel safe and secure knowing that as longas they don’t “do” what the victim did, they themselves won’t get attacked.
This sort of denial though is, of course, weaponized ignorance, and it’s taught overtly and covertly in virtually all societies to one degree or another, as so many commenters here are pointing out.
Maybe it’s quibbling but she’s Latino, not white, and the neighbourhood isn’t dangerous – wealthy downtown area with tons of bars and restaurants. Otherwise I agree with you.
They had Rita Cosby take a camera crew and walk from the one bar to the other and made it a point to say how dangerous and deserted that area is at 4:00 AM….like what the hell was she thinking?
more recent coverage, and as you say, even death cannot save her from condemnation. Instead of progress, things appear to be going backward. I guess now the broken bodies of victims must be found on the church steps, rosaries clutched tightly in cold little hands, and even then, there would be some who would say – never mind. End of sentence.
“Forgot she was prey” sums it up brilliantly. It should be a diary, it should be a book. And I think you would do a wonderful job of writing both!
It is not just rape. Many women feel shame when they are confronted with any kind of violence. Perhaps I am just generalizing because of what happened to me, and there is always a danger of assuming that what we feel is universal when it is not.
I remember sitting in the emergency room after my ex-husband tried to strangle me to death after punching me several times. I do not know what would have happened if my daughter had not walked in on the act.
But back to the ER. I never felt more worthless in my life. A nurse came in and sneered at me. “I assume your not married to the man who did this.” Well, yes, at the time I was. I guess in her universe only “loose” women get beat up and nearly killed by men. Fortunately, a young doctor came in and took my hands. He looked me in the eye and told me he was so sorry this had happened and that I would be all right. God bless that man.
I never did completely get over the feeling of shame. Even typing this, I feel like I am revealing something wrong with me. I feel as if people think that women who experience violence had it coming on some level. The same with women who experience the violence of rape. Some people, even reasonable ones, try to still the nagging thought that some how on some level it was her fault. Although they know this is not true, they can feel safer. Nothing bad will happen to THEM if they do everything right.
Sorry for rambling.
I’m sorry that happened to you and that the nurse was an insensitive ass.
Yesterday I spoke to a teenage girl who has been abused her whole life. Though the couple who raised her both beat her, she said the man was nicer because he always cried when he was done. He told her that he loved her more than her sister, and that was the reason he beat her.
What a stupid rationalization. But, that is the game they play. I love you, that is why blah, blah, blah. Well, if that is love, I don’t want to see hate.
And that nurse…what an idiot!
"Sorry for rambling."
Dear Kahli, please never ever apologize for telling the truth. Shame is a powerful outcome that must be brought out into the light, congfronted and fought with all we have, together. Shame afterwards. is the outcome of living in a culture that has found very ‘socially acceptable ways" of continuing to teach women that we are solely responsible for whatever happened to us, while removing most of the accountability of those responsibly for perpetrating the crimes against us. That, Is. Bullshit.
Pure bullshit, and I will not apologize for that language.
Your voice is strong and it is powerful. Be proud of it.
No. No more "sorry for rambling". No more "sorry for being raped, beated and silanced." No more sorry for living. There has been enough of this for way too long.
Thanks.
You’re not rambling, you are making perfect sense. I left my ex after the only time he hit me. I’m no one’s punching bag!
Ironically, I was having the same thoughts as you are re: the similarities between domestic violence and rape. And, as I mentioned, I just left with nothing. That is how bad I wanted out. You do what you gotta do. And, although everyone says that things have a way of working out, but it sure as hell takes awhile.
But, I’m getting there. (Been a hell of a lot of bumps in the road though.)
I’m so sorry. The ER lady handling the phones was very snotty, too. I was in shock, and later found out I was concussed – but her “way” the way she slammed papers around, her tone… it put me on the “alert” side of life.
I immediately understoond the moment I walked into the ER that I was being judged and I had no say in the matter. I knew that the priority was to take care of my needs and that the best way at the time was to do it alone.
YOur words make perfect sense to me. It’s their way of “saving” themselves. If they make us somehow a suspect than they themselves may not be a victim.
Instead, they should be outraged, supportive – that would be the best way to stop the violence.
I was thinking some more about this and how my sense of “shame” may actually part of the blame the victim -save yourself syndrom. At some deep level, perhaps feeling I was partly to blame gives me a sense of control. If I just do things “right” in the future maybe I can keep myself safe. I know this isn’t logical, but I think it may be operating in my psyche anyway.
Thanks for your support.
That is a fabulous insight, Kahli. Thank you, thank you, thank you for that huge CLICK.
I have framed your words and hung them in my tiny shrine to improved mental health. They are a flaming sword.
Better to face the dangers of the world as it is than to further handicap ourselves with crippling defenses in order to shore up some pastel fantasyland. That may mean re-evaluating comforting notions about the nature of humanity, the existance of god, or the general benevolence of the universe. So be it.
Gee. I receive so much from the people here that I’m glad to know something I wrote might help someone else.
revealed herself and not you. In some way she hopes that marriage keeps her safe. As women we are all the same in that we are female and we identify immediately with that whether we want to or not. It is very hard to look at one woman beaten and almost murdered and be brutally honest with ourselves about how vulnerable we are. We all want to make “deals” and believe that they will keep us safe. It doesn’t work that way though…..it never has and it never will and that my friends can be a scary thing to accept.
It really helped me. I’ve metioned to a couple people why I left my ex, but I don’t think that I have ever faced the reality of all the reasons until now.
Thanks Kahli!
susanw that it is a very keen insight.
Maybe some will argue that it is some kind of defense mechanism, in a cockamamie sort of way, an attempt to wrest conntrol from a situation where there is none.
No woman, no matter how she dresses, “acts,” walks, talks, does, says, thinks or drinks, has ANY control over or responsibility for the actions of a violent criminal.
Despite all the cultural norms and factors, there are millions of men who have never raped a woman, and never will, nor even consider such a thing, nor be capable of it, despite seeing daily the same women in the same clothes, in the same places, talking and acting the same way.
You are right. And the same cultural norms that cast women as natural prey do all those good men a terrible disservice. Men are not mindless, instinct driven predators who cannot control themselves, requiring all women to be locked up, covered up, and shut up so as not to inflame inexorable lust.
No, you weren’t to blame at all. It is the mind game that these assholes play. And they are so damn good at it, that is what the really pathetic part is. Now, I am thinking, how the hell could I have married such an asshole. Well, I was young and stupid. Oh, well. Moving on and not blaming myself anymore. Thanks again.
My ex-husband was another an abusive prick. Verbally/Emotionally! (Sometimes I think that could be worse.) Then, he hit me once. That was the day I left him.
One of the most tragic things ever told to me was said by a good friend who was in a long time relationship with an abusive husband.
She said, (paraphrasing); “Sure he hits me and everything, but at least it shows he cares about me”.
I’ll never forget the feeling that overwhelmed me when she said that.
Women can tell their stories till the cows ocme home and it won’t be enough by itself. It won’t stop rape or any kind of violence against women, not all by itself. Womens voices are too easily discounted and dismissed by those who have the power to make and enforce laws. Places like this, where those voices ARE heard, are still far too rare.
It’s going to take a million Ductapes and men like those who hang out here, on millions of fronts, ready to fight like hell to stop it among their own sons and brothers and peers. It means men not only refusing to participate im demeaning "humor" about women, but who will actually confront the jerks who call thier wives "the ol lady" and speak of them as if they were a piece of meat or property they "own." Over and over and over.
It means ordinary men willing to DO something to help the woman next door who they KNOW is being beaten, and violently raped by her "husband, night after night, but is too disempowered or scared to leave. It means fathers making damned sure they know what their sons are doing out there once they reach puberty and are surrounded by peer pressure to "score." It means men stepping up to change men, and to shape boys to respect women, along WITH all the things women always have to do to protect themselves and each other while speaking out in thier own strong voices. It means mothers and fathers directly addressing this issue with their sons and thier daughters, from an early age on, in full awareness that they need so much help at home to counter balance the messages about women this culture loves to perpetuate, because there is much money to be made, and it’s one hell of a good way to preserve the status quo of a patriarchal culture based onm keeping women "in thier place".
Again I know I preach to the choir here.A choir of good men who will continue to pay unfair, severe penance for the violent behavior of your lesser brothers, as long as nothing changes. This isn’t a womens issue, it’s a human rights issue and the fact is, over half the population of this county cannot count on being safe anywhere.
Thank you for this diary, brother. And thank you all for all you do to work for basic human rights and dignity for all of us.
scribe, I don’t think anyone could have said that better
As I said elsewhere, it’s that type of man who puts the “man” in Humanity.
A million Ductapes mentoring young men and modelling responsible, adult caring behavior. Men stepping up to tell Andrew Dice Clay that he’s not funny. Fathers and brothers who see teenage girls with no sense of self as the vulnerable children they are instead of easy pickings.
I know men like that. Unfortunately, most of them I’ve found here; there are very few out in the world.
I see men who are as afraid of the stigma as women. They go along to get along. Men may be at even greater risk from their peers then women are, because questioning male entitlement to women’s bodies casts them as traitors to their gender.
Amen to that. I also owe a lot to the sisters and friends that cared enough about me to teach me to listen to myself repeating those messages, to think about those messages, to reject them, and to adopt a new way of speaking — and, I must admit, in some instances a new way of thinking. Countless men that would never commit acts of physical violence themselves nevertheless perpetuate it through ignorance of the power of words.
I don’t know whether this is the appropriate place to post this: I haven’t been ignoring these threads, but have chosen to stay out of them.
However, was thinking about these conversations when I ran across this blurb in the NYT.
What will they come up with next by way of excuse?
More bitter, twisted, mordant irony.
(Sorry, PTSD here, PTSD there: in my book there is NO EXCUSE).
Anyway, thought it might be of interest.
Carry on.
Posting our stories are important…and we need to do more…these are public places and, yes this is the choir.
I had a couple of choices the other day…pictures or not. Post at Booman Tribune only or go for the widest exposure and post at DailyKos. I hope all 80k+ registered users read my story and looked at the pictures.
Well…fuck the ones that want to keep us quiet and ashamed! I don’t care if people look at me differently because now I will stare right back and in their face, ask them how they can let women and children be abused and raped.
Front and center…in your face!
There is a stigma because we let them…no more, not ever again.
I thought hard about posting the "Call to Arms" Diary over at the Orange place since parts of it spoke directly to some of the attitudes there.
I didn’t. I lacked the courage. I didn’t want to invite the vitrol I knew it would cause there back into my life. (I also knew I couldn’t just post it and NOT read the comments.) I am looking at this decision. I am no coward. Nothing anyone can say there or anwhere can possible hurt me. Yet I made the decision to only post it here, where I am "safe".
And there lies proof at how strong the suble effects of sexual violence from men can be, and how lasting and powerful it is. It’s been over 30 years full of very effective healing work since the last time I was physically raped.
But it wasn’t all that long that I felt, acutely the flashback echos of it again, over there, in that all out attack against women that went on there during the pie wars.
At the same time, I know only I can keep myself safe. Part of that means, at this late stage and age, is keeping my BP under control well enough to not stroke out. That means not knowingly walking into any lions dens that I can possibly avoid, even when makes me feel like a coward, and it does. I just hate this.
Last year when I posted my first diary on just(???) domestic violence I was terrified. A total basket case and Booman and other similar smaller sites were not really around.
In the past year…partly here and partly finding my voice during the pie wars I felt strong enough to move up front.
There is nothing wrong with waiting until the time is right for each of us. No stigma, no blame, nothing but love for you and everyone else.
This is my time to be there. I know that there hundreds and thousands behind me as I make this stand for all of us.
Can I make a request of all the strong and courageous women who have reopened painful wounds and exposed their deepest emotional pain to reveal the terrible truth … do not be silent any longer. I have not commented yet on the outpouring of stories that have been presented over the past few days… it has not been out of disconcern , but rather utter shock.
To grasp the issue intellectually is one thing, but to come face to face with the raw emotion and pain is another … our should I say “be forced to come face to face with it” … because that is what you have done… you have forced us all (the men of this group) to face the terrible realities faced by so many women.
Please, please .. all of you who have been reluctant to tell these stories on other sites (the orange monster), please try to find the courage to do so. They need to be told … we men need to hear them over and over again.
There’s power in numbers … maybe we could organize some sort of rape/abuse awareness day whereby those with stories to tell could all do so with all of us in support to help make the situation a little less scary.
I realize I am asking a lot… and cannot imagine what it takes to sit down and face the kind of long, lingering pain that lies just beneath the surface … but if somehow you can gather just one more ounce of your tremendous courage and put your stories out there … they will be read, and they will make a difference.
I in no way want to pressure anyone into doing something that is so emotionally and physicaly difficult to do… that’s the last thing I would want after you have done so much already. I guess I just want to let you know that if you feel like you want to tell your story … we will be there to support you and help you in any way we can.
There’s power in numbers … maybe we could organize some sort of rape/abuse awareness day whereby those with stories to tell could all do so with all of us in support to help make the situation a little less scary."
This is a very, very good idea.
Duke, that was a very thoughtful suggestion, and I appreciate your kindness in offering an environment of safety and support for the victims of these atrocious acts.
As for me, I remain emotionally devastated by the stories that have been shared – particularly the ones involving vulnerable children who suffered at the hands of abusive adults – the ones who should have been protecting the children. In fact, as soon as I woke up this morning, I sobbed uncontrollably and was unable to compose myself for several hours. (I’m especially haunted by mythmother’s stories – among so many others)
I also wanted to mention that to this day not ONE of my family members is aware of what happened to me, and unlike some of the more courageous members of this site, I don’t think I can revisit my personal situation any time soon.
That being said, bless you, and all the other wonderful, caring men of BT. In all sincerity, you guys are truly a credit to your gender.
For posting your story over at the orange place. I couldn’t do it over there, I decided. I still struggle at times with the whole date rape terminology. He was my boyfriend, I had slept with him before, I just didn’t FEEL like it that afternoon. I of course can be talked or seduced into sex if I initially don’t feel like it, but this was different. Yes, this was rape. He took me, as Ducktape has said, like I was his property. Fuck my feelings, they meant nothing to him.
I had a counselor once tell me I wasn’t really raped. I felt like slapping him in the face. Perhaps I should have. And I’m sure he said that for the exact above reasons. Society has so trained boys and men to view women as property, as something they own. Better yet if she’s ‘yours’, as a girlfriend or spouse. Anyway, that’s why I couldn’t open it all up over there. I’m sure some jackass would have come over and said wah wah wah, poor lil girl. Maybe not, but it’s too big of a crowd over there. I knew I’d be safe here, and that’s what counts. Thanks all. 🙂
Could there be any more clear statement of how women are silenced that to hear from these incredibly powerful women – Scribe and Shermanesque – that they could not speak at the “orange place?” And this is not about that blog. I remember all of the talk over there about whether or not “tone” makes a difference. Well, here you have it. The tone of our discourse determines what we get to hear and who we hear from. Always has and always will. Good lesson to remember whenever we hear from those with a perspective different from our own. Listen well and listen long before you assume you know or understand.
You should have slapped him in the face – and then told him he wasn’t really slapped in the face.
Unfortunately today, even if the woman is killed, there is a “Blame” the victim mentality.
I did not get the ass hole’s last name, but some reporter from Boston was blaming the young lady who was raped and killed in NY; saying she should have know better than to be drunk, alone in NY at 4 am. BULLSHIT! Why can I do that and not her? I do not care if it was 4 am; she was drunk, walking naked through Central Park, she was not “Asking for it”.
This is not on you ladies to fix that mentality of Neanderthal males, that job is on us males. I promise you, I do and will let every guy that I meet, who has that attitude know that they are wrong and should remove themselves from the gene pool.
AND A STANDING OVATION FOR YOU AND ALL MEN LIKE YOU!
link
Human Rights Watch (HRW), in a report released on the eve of Wednesday’s commemoration of International Women’s Day, detailed what it termed ”the disrespect, suspicion, and apathy that pregnant rape victims encounter from public prosecutors and health workers” in a country where abortions are tightly restricted.
The document appeared as pro- and anti-choice combatants gird for a possible U.S. Supreme Court fight over South Dakota’s new ban on the termination of pregnancies except to save the pregnant woman’s life.
The American Taliban won’t be happy until they bomb the US back into the age of Barbarianism with their anti-abortion stink bombs. I’m glad that we are letting them know that we won’t go quietly.
Excellent diary, thanks. Years ago child abuse was not taken seriously, thankfully it is now, CPS staff shortages notwithstanding. When will society recognize that this too is pure and simple violence?
Dear Duct and to all the men here-you really have no idea what a gift you have given to all of us women here. I think it was scribe who said that it is rather unprecedented for women to talk about their rape or any rape freely in a setting other than all women…and that is so very true.
Women can talk, march, protest against the way rape laws -such as they were-were prosecuted but as long as there were and still are very very few men willing to stand up and be counted along side of us the attitudes and stigma will continue.
Your diary-and all the comments of the men here-have helped to tamp down my simmering and bubbling under the surface anger at all men in general-something I try to avoid feeling anytime time this subject comes up. I know this isn’t particularly fair of me but all these diaries are calling for honesty and that is how I feel and something I always have to work at overcoming.
The physical act of rape or molestation goes beyond the purely physical act against you and the mental rape to your mind by this from yourself and others-if they know-is what causes the lasting damage.
I knew the risks that I took and allowed myself that if I needed to go some place safer after I told that I could do that for Tracy and no skin off of my nose. I was young….my belongings if carefully packed could fit in the car, on the car, and a small UHaul trailer and I had a towing hitch! People were nervous. I was patient. Mature women though knew that was okay….I wasn’t going to deal you dirty ever and had no reason to ever want to. Men in the community who loved their women well and saw their daughters with a clear eye extended the utmost respect to me. I was willing to be honest and listen to the calling of my higher self and other people who want to do the same and seek another to commune with could do that with me. The truth is so freeing though…..I can’t believe how freeing it is. I did get some shit. I got some shit from the HeMan Woman Haters of this here town….and an exboyfriend from my senior year in high school had joined up. You know that they shot him out there the first clear chance they got. They didn’t like how confident I was with myself and having said that stuff about ole Tyler I guess. I was out one night with friends and the HeMan Woman Haters were there. I was standing close by talking to somebody and it wasn’t Randy but of course when I was done talking he got close to me and with his Budweiser breath informed me “That he had had me! So I thought on that for moment, really hard……I thought back fully to when Randy had had me! One of the nicest things about being a grown up girl is realizing that nobody needs the HeMan Woman Haters and nobody is missing anything without the HeMan Woman Haters. I would be hard pressed to find a worse piece of ass than Randy! With that blissful encounter fully in my mind I replied back to Randy that that had been the best five minutes of my life and I thought twenty people were going to fall down laughing. That sonofabitch never did try to pick on me again and the HeMan Woman Haters Club looked at the wall whenever I was around!
that Second Nature is still in Dixie. In the West of America, even the red state West……..I don’t feel a lot of hostility or conflict with the men around me unless they are just flat out asses. Down here in Alabama though there something about me that seems to rub about half of the men here the wrong way. They either hate me here or love me….no middle ground.