The last few days have been a bizzare experience. I had a feeling I was in Red State or Free Republic at times. First, there was the bizzare diary defending female teachers having sex with 14 year old boys, which got a lot of support. Now, in reaction to the protests against HR 4437, we have people coming forward and defending the Minutemen and their neo-Nazi allies — and getting cheered on.
I am not going to mention names. You know who you are. But if you are gullible enough to swoon over the Minutemen, the Neo-Nazis, and their “professionalism,” then you are being an enabler. You are being an enabler for the worst kind of hate groups there are in this country. And if you don’t believe me when I say that the Minutemen and Neo-nazis are allied, you are arguing with the facts, not me.
You do not understand who you are dealing with. These men are killers. These are people who will kill, maim, and destroy whenever they think it will advance their political agendas. These are the same kind of people who bombed the Alfred E. Murrah Building, drag Black people along the roads from pickup trucks, and burn crosses outside people’s houses.
If you are going to be so prejudiced against immigrants that you will turn a blind eye to these people and their evil actions, then we don’t need your votes. There is a home for you. It is called the Republican Party.
You may look at the TV and swoon over the “professionalism” of these people. But you’ve been had. If you’re gullible enough to believe their image of being like the friendly neighborhood watch people, then you have learned nothing from the days of Ronald Reagan, when he caused over 25% of Democrats to swoon over his sunny optimism.
You do not recognize that evil men and women like these people are can be the nicest people in the world. But I don’t judge people based on appearences. I judge on actions. The Minutemen and their Neo-Nazi allies are wolves in sheep’s clothing. They present themselves as concerned citizens, when in fact, they are ravening wolves ready to kill when it suits their political agendas.
Incidentally, the problem is not so much with our elected officials. Yes, I wish they would show more spine. But the problem is us. Too often, we fail to recognize that we are guilty of the same kind of appeasement tactics that we rant against the Democratic establishment for. Rush Limbaugh screams about how immigrants take away our jobs, and people in this community cower in fear and bend over backwards to appease Rush by supporting the Minutemen. Lou Dobbs can give one of his smug, self-righteous stories about the War on the Middle Class, and people turn around and say, “Me, too!”
By acting like Republicans and turning immigrants into the enemy by supporting the Minutemen, you are part of the problem, not the solution. You have turned your back on 45 years of progress on civil rights, peace, and social justice in the name of appeasement.
There is a wide room for disagreement over immigration. I understand the need to balance the respect for law on one hand with our legacy of 400 years of providing freedom and opportunity for people who had not had it before. Some people will be more restrictive of it, while others would be more lenient. That is fine. But when you support the Minutemen, you cross the line in my book. You need to take a good hard look at whether or not you are really a Democrat or not. Supporting the Minutemen is a cop-out that does not provide any real, meaningful solutions to the problem.
Not only that, you are running the risk of plunging the country into civil war and chaos. Suppose HR 4437 passes and Bush signs it into law. You are playing into Bush’s hands when he is trying to turn this country into a police state. If you have skin that is too dark, a neighbor might smear you by suggesting you are an illegal alien. You can have a Green Card, lose it, and have George Bush whisk you away and deport you right back to your old country.
This is just like the Blacks in the ghettos back in the 1960’s and before. Everybody thought they were too poor to get guns and fight what they considered police brutality. But they were wrong – Blacks protesting police brutality and poor living conditions brought the country to its knees in the 1960’s through riots. If Bush starts a policy of trying to deport 21 million undocumented workers back at once, this country would be plunged into civil war. People would get guns either legally or illegally and shoot any immigration agents on sight. Clashes between Minutemen and immigrants would take place. This whole country could be turned into a McCarthyite witch hunt that would involve people turning each other in if they know they are from another country. People would be wrongfully deported because Bush would consider you guilty until proven innocent – read up on Guantanamo and extraordinary rendition if you don’t believe me.
We have to make a hard choice – do we risk plunging the country into civil war, or do we sit down and do the hard work of developing a meaningful program on immigration that affirms the equality of all people and treats immigrants with fairness and respect, while recognizing that undocumented immigrants broke the law and should face fair and reasonable consequences?
1. Fully funding the INS and cracking down on businesses.
Our first priority should be to fully fund the INS and crack down on businesses who hire undocumented workers. What Eliot Spitzer did for corporate crime and what John Conyers will do for the illegal wiretapping program and the Iraq War, we need to do with companies that exploit workers in poverty. I have no respect for companies that flout labor laws by paying subminumum wages to workers and refuse to pay out workman’s comp and other mandatory programs. There should be massive lawsuits and jail sentences for employers who exploit people for profit.
HR 4437 is totally unenforceable. That is because the INS is unable to enforce labor laws because they are inadequately funded. We need to give them the resources they need to investigate complaints of labor law violations.
2. Increase immigration quotas to meet job demand.
We need to come up with a credible estimate of job demand, and allow enough immigrants in to meet job demand. Our first priority should be to let in skilled immigrants and immigrants who plan to start their own businesses. We cannot let in everybody who wants to come to this country. We should, however, have a priority list so that the immigrants we do let in create as many jobs as possible.
a. Skilled laborers and business owners.
Skilled laborers, who can document a degree from a reputable institution or who can demonstrate through employment history skilled labor; people with a comprehensive plan to start their own business. In the latter case, the INS would require verification that the person is actually operating such a business. Understanding of US labor law must be demonstrated.
b. Refugees and persons fleeing persecution.
The next priority would be for refugees who can document famine or a well-founded fear of religious or political persecution.
c. Persons with immediate family members or children born in the US.
d. The general pool.
3. Double the minimum wage.
Part of the problem is that many Americans will rarely work at menial jobs for minimum wage – immigrants would. Doubling the minimum wage would address this problem.
4. Penalties.
In assessing penalties for undocumented workers, we must take into account the fact that they might have children born in the US, and are thus citizens under the 14th Amendment. Furthermore, all people, even undocumented workers, are granted Constitutional rights. Therefore, any immigration violations must be given due process.
Undocumented persons convicted of felonies or misdemeanors other than traffic violations or immigration-related cases should be deported. All immigrants must go through hoops in order to enter for a period of time. Therefore, immigrants who do not have their papers in order must jump through additional hoops and complete them in a certain amount of time. Failure to do so will result in deportation. Undocumented persons should have to pay a fine as well, and if they get their Green Card, they should have to wait longer for their citizenship and be placed on probation in which they must seek education and/or employment and obey all laws.
There must also be adequate safeguards for children born in this country. Judges should be more reluctant to deport aliens with children who are US citizens and should decide such cases in the best interests of the children. There should be a fingerprint database of children born in this country to undocumented aliens so that when they return to this country, they can easily prove their citizenship.
Furthermore, many countries will not accept our deportees. In that case, we should not deport them at all, but have some other penalty available.
Thank you for your post, as I was over there and got troll rated for stating my position. Just read a few of my post.
http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2006/3/27/194042/983/100#100
I managed to keep it half-way civil with Skid, although he doesn’t understand what the deal was with those pro-Minutemen posters and why they deserved all the 0’s I gave them.
This diary doesn’t belong at BooMan Tribune. You should have posted it on DailyKos. They’re who your gripe’s with.
Afraid of the consequences?
.
Thanks Eternal Hope for this important lesson in democracy. I don’t agree with Limelite’s reasoning because your title could just as well have been:
Sickening: Democrats supporting the Minutemen.
There is just a slight reference to the orange place in the first alinea, but your diary should concern all citizens of America.
“But I will not let myself be reduced to silence.”
▼ ▼ ▼ MY DIARY
But people elsewhere need to see it. There are people within our own movement that sell out to the Minutemen and to hatred.
I’m never afraid to put my views out on the table.
You are right to post here and everywhere. We need to know where people stand. Who to count on and who are our betrayers.
As long as this issue is sweep under the rug and labeled “my issue” to defend, then there will never be a true disscussion. There have been too many band-aides to this wound and people refuse to see the hemorrhaging that is taking place.
Just asked my question because so many “refugees” here who find the Kos Kitchen too hot. Yet, it seems the temperature’s risen around here a few times — making several Tribbers uncomfortable enough to leave the Pond.
Hadn’t seen you diary at Kos. I post and diary at both K&B about equally but I’m not as regular a bloggee as some.
I seem to spend more time over here. I do believe there is a little more understanding over here. Immigration issues at dkos get persons like Eternal hope branded a liberal,over here we may not agree but I’m never going to give the poster a 1 or troll rate because we can’t agree on every single issue.
Too hot??? For what I hear they are really cold!!!
I’m staying there. Those individuals are in the minority over there. But there are still too many.
Limelite,
There is a difference between heat and smoke. It is possible a group of people would want to have our own conversation not because we are so skerted of you macho boys, but because our time is finite. Are you so afraid to hang out with freepers, or do you find them inane?
Similarly, sometimes Kos too painfully stupid, not too threatening. What is the threat? What is it we are supposed to fear, Big Scary Man Words? oooohhhh.
This reminds me of one of my early internet experiences I was arguing on one of the women’s discussion areas. This one guy got so upset at me that he threatened violence. I remember finding this truly funny. He was going to get on a plane, fly to another state, and kick my butt. It indicated that he often (or only ever, given his quality of argument) won arguments by resorting to threat. He met someone who could argue with him in public, that could interact and was effectively immune from his threats. It was a great experience – funny and empowering. But that does not mean I wanted to keep in touch once he stopped being funny.
ask the guy for his flight information so they could meet him at the airport?
I’ve read stupid posts on both blogs. Made a few of them, too. But I’ll always call ’em like I see ’em. Heat, smoke, or fire.
Disagree. This is the most important topic of the week, and one of the biggest topic of the year and the decade, and this intelligent discussion is highly welcome here!
Thank you but shouldn’t this be cross-posted where the kossacks in question are more likely to see it?
That being said, I can’t agree with all of your your arguments.
Doubling minimum wage will have little or no effect. Illegal immigrants often/usually work off the books and are therefore not subject to any regs. Employers are going to hire those workers that they can pay less. Doubling the wage for legal workers will only drive more employers to employ the cheaper illegal immigrants.
Furthermore, I can’t agree with this:
Why? Are those without such things less worthy of our consideration? I can only assume that you wouldn’t have let my grandparents in.
This provision of your argument seems like a rather right-leaning position.
if you combine the rise in minimum wage with strict enforcement and penalties against businesses that employ people at less than minimum wage (and crack down on “off the books” employment — not only does the employee not pay income tax, neither does their employer).
How about just making everyone legal? (except for known axe murderers.) Your scenario will make avoidance just another cost of doing business.
are willing to do jobs other Americans won’t do!
/snark
I support the increase of immigration quotas to meet demand for their services.
But the UK went from no minimum wage to twice that of ours, and they do not have a major immigrant problem.
The skilled workers I mention would be in addition to the general quota.
But I am always willing to make any plan of mine better. What was your grandparents’ situation?
My grandparents came in the 1920’s, poor, young and no skills. As for the UK, not the best comparison, it’s a little easier with an island nation.
In that case, people could either get a student visa and then a permanent visa as a skilled worker after completing their education, or document how they would plan to start their own business.
They could also go for refugee status as well; I feel that we should provide places of refuge for people from wars and famines where they could either apply for a Green Card or go back when things got better.
Why is a skilled immigrant more important than a person for Guatemala who works six days a week killing hogs. I don’t know many people who are willing to gut a hog and work on the high plains.
The correct road is to just lump them all together as the skilled C++ programmer is just as important as that person from Guatemala. Not many USC want to gut or kill a hog, which gives us a McRib and there may or may not be a shortage of C++ programmers. As both persons make this country run.
I would be opposed to convicted of felonies or misdemeanors be deported. As each state has different standards for what is a felony,..a felony in Oklahoma is not one in Missouri. I think there should be a determination of a case by case basis and those with a felony for drugs or violent criminal acts should be restricted from immigrating. And a factor to be considered is whether they have children who are Legal Permanent Residents or United States Citizens.
I get drilled for being too naive and Liberal over there; now, I am drilled for being too Conservative over here. I guess I am on the right track if I want to find the Middle Ground 🙂
Seriously, you make some good points. Given what you say about the variety of state laws, you’re right about the need for a case-by-case basis.
I didn’t do a good enough job of developing the argument for when children who are US citizens are involved. When an undocumented worker has a child who is a US citizen, then the INS should then judge the case based on the best interest of the child. In general, that would mean that they should be much more reluctant to deport a parent in that case.
I agree that a hog worker is just as valuable as a C++ programmer. Maybe I should rethink this and suggest that these cases should be considered seperately. Increasing the quotas to meet job demand would mean that the hog worker would be allowed in if there is a job waiting for them.
This sort of thing should be reviewed on a monthly basis, so that if they don’t get in the first time, they could get in next month.
The main point I am making is that we have a finite number of jobs available, and that I don’t want to admit people if we cannot give them the same kind of quality of life that US citizens do even with a more liberalized immigration policy.
And that is half the problem….some people think that Immigration Law is just black and white letters in a book. A blanket deportation for persons with misdeamenors and felony, leads to results most people don’t like. I did agree with a portion of your comment just not 100%.
http://www.thekansascitychannel.com/news/7132642/detail.html
wish I could say I was suprised, but there has been some rightist former Republican thuggery going on at dKos for quite some time, especially after the Clarkies swarmed in.
Kos isn’t a liberal, and that isn’t a liberal blog, or even a truly progressive blog. It’s devolved into a center-right home for maladjusted techie young men full of seething resentment. They drove off most of the truly liberal and progressive people some time ago, not wanting the company of hairy hippies and unshaven feminists. Only the single-issue of protecting kos’ right to suck at the party’s money teat is welcome.
Walk away, you’ll feel better.
Did a long time ago.
Precisely. This is the expected result of kos’ continued attacks on women’s rights and voting rights.
Judging from the comments I got today, there are still plenty of people over there fighting the good fight.
I can see why you might feel alone over there sometimes.
Feingold is up to 48% on Kos’ latest poll; Clark has been dropping the last few months into the high teens now.
What surprises me is that Kos’ parents came from El Salvador fleeing from there because of the political situation. He shouldn’t allow that kind of stuff in his blog.
Not necessarily. All refugees are NOT created equal.
I can’t speak to Kos’ personal situation or his parents, but anytime there’s a peasant revolution, the FIRST planes out of the country will usually be full of the non-essential rightist rich, who’d rather live somewhere else for a time than be caught up in the uncertainty OR live in a country where the privileges of wealth are not adequately respected. There ain’t NOTHING like an expat rightist for arrogance, indifference to humanity, or support for Dictatorship by Divine Right — anything that’ll put the world back in its right order with them at the top where Dog meant them to be.
I know a few expat Salvadorans and Nicaraguans here who make Rumsfeld and Cheney look like Mother Teresa or Francis of Assisi. They are some scary people – I have on occasion been tempted to shoot them myself.
off base.
Sorry, but such massively overblown, self-serving, and bitter bile speak ill of you.
funny you had no problem feasting on his corpse at the funeral the day he got banned for speaking truth to power.
and now you don’t like the taste.
TFB isnt it?
bayprairie!
You have NO IDEA how disappointed I am to see your sig here, RedDan.
And after some of the shit I saw you run on dKos…you have no place WHATSOEVER accusoinmg someone else of overblown, self-serving, bitter bile.
Go home.
You don’t deserve here.
AG
Yup.
Precisely.
AG
Yup.
Precisely.
AG
Sorry…somehow I double posted.
BUT…it’s double true.
AG
but you are going to have to provide a bit of documentation before that kind of broad brush accusation has much merit.
First of all, it seems to me that a near-complete open forum with open registration and extremely loose posting rules that are barely enforce with more than 80,000 members is going to have its fair share of loonies and losers.
Without providing a sense for how many Kossacks support the minutemen, without providing a sense for which Kossacks support the minutemen, and without providing a sense for how well-received those minutemen-supporting comments or posters were, I do not think that the title or tone of this diary is particularly accurate.
I, for one, abhor and detest the minutemen and all that they stand for.
I am certainly not an expert on all aspects of immigration or related issues, and I have certainly partaken of my fair share of misapprehensions…but in the recent diaries on the issue that I have read and/or participated in, I have been 1) impressed by the depth of knowledge and passion shown by the people involved in the dialogue, and 2) schooled on a couple of the issues my very own self.
Would you care to point me in the direction of the offending statements or comments?
I went over and looked through your diary and threads over there…
I found two people who outright supported the Minutemen as per their own words.
I found a couple of people who were arguing about philosophical interpretations of the word “support” or some such mealy-mouthed garbage, and I found a couple of people who were ambivalent about the whole thing.
I also found a lot of people who were pretty blatantly condemnatory about the whole business…a lot more than were supportive of the minutemen.
Perhaps you should think about the characteristics of very large groups, about the fact that since there really are very few (zero) “censors” at work, and certainly very few (zero) “gatekeepers” vetting each and every post by each and every poster, or applying some kind of test to each and every applicant for a user account….that it is entirely possible that a) there are some dumb-assed right of center nativist democrats who post there (I know for a fact that there are a LOT), or b) there are some sock-puppet/poseurs/provocateurs looking to stir up bickering and fights (I know for a fact there are at least some), or c) there are some people who have a particular blind spot on that issue (and on others too) …they are wrong, misguided and foolish about it…they’ll learn, or they’ll get schooled and either go away in a huff to join a different group.
Broad brush characterization of an entire group based on the behavior of approximately .00625% of that population (5 out of 80,000) is not the way to go.
.
“Without providing a sense for how many Kossacks support the minutemen, without providing a sense for which Kossacks support the minutemen, and without providing a sense for how well-received those minutemen-supporting comments or posters were, I do not think that the title or tone of this diary is particularly accurate.”
Like I mentioned in my first comment upthread, the title could have read democrats instead of kossacks. The diary should be appreciated for its content on the issue of minutemen and immigration.
You are making this a personal debate about the orange place, which does not belong on BooMan’s Place. There are too many personal experiences why many bloggers have chosen the frog pond and called it home.
“But I will not let myself be reduced to silence.”
▼ ▼ ▼ MY DIARY
The title should have said “ill-considered nativist bigots supporting the minutement”…because that is the reality, whether those bigots are kossacks, democrats, DU’ers, or whatever.
The title of the diary is poorly reflective of the content. The content is excellent, and made me think..the title made me angry, because I am a “kossack,” I do not support the minutemen, I do not condone or support those who defend the minutemen, and neither do the vast majority of people on any of the left, left-of-center, or liberal blogs, regardless of past comment wars, nasty infighting, or whatever. I am not making this a personal debate, I am responding to an unfair and inaccurate portrayal of a community that I participate within.
As a long-time member of a large number of blogs, I have been insulted, threatened, banned, and generally abused any number of times in any number of ways by an extremely people with a large variety of political outlooks, left, right, and center. I rarely let it sour my view of an entire blog community.
Regardless, this diary has excellent content – content that was, in fact, pretty well-received at dailykos. My objection is in the title, and in the (predictable) use of that title by several to try and continue their vendetta against…well…against someone.
You’re really insufferably long-winded and self-righteous. We’re adults here. We don’t need to be talked down to like this. We see all of this instantly. You act like you’re part of a cult.
There were a tiny handful of people who were pro-Minuteman and WAY too many people who didn’t understand what the deal was and thought I was being a mean bully by downrating that one poster. Next time I have to write about something like that, I’ll link to the posts involved.
We talked about the rules over at Kos, and we decided it was OK to link to posts so that people would know what you are talking about. It is against the rules, however, to call another user out in the title over there.
I know it is only 5 people, but what I found troubling was that none of them were troll-rated and the ones that were immediately got rated up, with 1 or 2 exceptions.
I have played plenty of chess in my time, and I have to have a sense of danger. And it is really easy for a small problem to balloon into a huge problem. And I draw the line at supporting the Minutemen. There is plenty of room for honest policy disagreement here or there, but hate should never be tolerated.
But the discussions today were much more civil.
The cure to all of this is to stop aiding and exploiting the poverty in Mexico. The answer is Fair Trade/Free Trade and to do business with companies in Mexico who employ fair labor practices and pay living wages. It is so hard though to push for those things when the bastards running this country are trying to even take away our own fair labor practices and living wages! We are busy fighting for our own rights and the Republican party’s fear theme of “us and theme” is being played out by the Minutemen. I met one of the minutemen in Crawford. I can’t say that he lived much above the poverty line himself….he seemed to be fueled by anger. It angered him that “wetbacks were coming over here and stealing our jobs”. I can understand how he would feel that way but what I don’t understand is why he never thought that maybe his boss in the Armani suit paying huge bucks to lobbyists who pass it on the Republicans in power had something to do with it all too! There isn’t much US AND THEM, at least not as much as our scared inner selves seek to find. It is mostly just US and nobody is going to save US from US except US!
I don’t think “illegal” immigrants are a problem. The more the merrier.
This puts the argument where it should be – about the economics and humanity, not about race or fear.
I have seen so many bad proposals. Some ignore economics. Some ignore legitimate economic concerns from US citizens.
This is a comprehensive and balanced proposal.
I am impressed.
Lousy diary title though. How about: comprehensive and sane response to rights of citizenship. Too boring I guess.
The Minutemen are a hate group, as too few people seem to realize. The whole purpose of the diary was to alert people that hate-mongers are in our midst, and their bile should not be tolerated.
The immigration issue is full of complexities that I can attest to here in New Orleans.
I think the minutemen are a lousy group caving to fear and prejudice, by the way.
However, a flood of hispanic workers here has ignited tensions, which, to everyone’s credit, has remained verbal, for the most part.
While the city planners and politicians do their best to keep the African American low income home owners and renters from returning, the government contractors are busing in Mexican workers willing to work at low wages.
It is a sorry situation. Many racists here welcome the mexican workers because they “work so hard, and so long…”, but they don’t dare finish the sentence “at lower wages”.
Not to say there aren’t individuals here in New Orleans who pay their workers well, no matter their ethnicity. You’re better off getting hired by an individual, rather than a contractor milking the government and tax payer’s money.
My two cents? The immigrant “issue” serves the government in two ways: a new scapegoat is being created to divert from
real class issues that ought to be discussed and debated…and, the cheap labor supply that immigrants provide serves capitalism in America. The policians screaming about this issue know this…a few illegal immigrants languishing in one of the newly built concentration camps will serve as political capital, while businesses continue to hire them by the thousands.
The government, and the American people, will play the issue both ways as long as it can…so Iraq isn’t discussed, or the billions of dollars disappearing there.
I’m waiting for the next “scandal”: a high profile politician who supports the crackdown on illegal immigrants, who employs a once, or current, illegal immigrant in their home.