No respect for nutjobs at Liberal Street Fighter
The first few paragraphs in the LA Times story Christians Sue for Right Not to Tolerate Policies sums it up pretty well:
Ruth Malhotra went to court last month for the right to be intolerant.
Malhotra says her Christian faith compels her to speak out against homosexuality. But the Georgia Institute of Technology, where she’s a senior, bans speech that puts down others because of their sexual orientation.
Malhotra sees that as an unacceptable infringement on her right to religious expression. So she’s demanding that Georgia Tech revoke its tolerance policy.
With her lawsuit, the 22-year-old student joins a growing campaign to force public schools, state colleges and private workplaces to eliminate policies protecting gays and lesbians from harassment. The religious right aims to overturn a broad range of common tolerance programs: diversity training that promotes acceptance of gays and lesbians, speech codes that ban harsh words against homosexuality, anti-discrimination policies that require college clubs to open their membership to all.
The Rev. Rick Scarborough, a leading evangelical, frames the movement as the civil rights struggle of the 21st century. “Christians,” he said, “are going to have to take a stand for the right to be Christian.”
THIS is the most pressing issue to these people, these Christians … they are CALLED by their Lord to spread hatred. The fact that other people in the society around them ask them to be civil, to show some respect when interacting with others is “discrimination” against them for their faith. In fact, they claim that policies that constrain them from spewing their bile result in a war on Christians.
“The message is, you’re free to worship as you like, but don’t you dare talk about it outside the four walls of your church,” said Stephen Crampton, chief counsel for the American Family Assn. Center for Law and Policy, which represents Christians who feel harassed.
Critics dismiss such talk as a right-wing fundraising ploy. “They’re trying to develop a persecution complex,” said Jeremy Gunn, director of the American Civil Liberties Union’s Program on Freedom of Religion and Belief.
Others fear the banner of religious liberty could be used to justify all manner of harassment.
“What if a person felt their religious view was that African Americans shouldn’t mingle with Caucasians, or that women shouldn’t work?” asked Jon Davidson, legal director of the gay rights group Lambda Legal.
Christian activist Gregory S. Baylor responds to such criticism angrily. He says he supports policies that protect people from discrimination based on race and gender. But he draws a distinction that infuriates gay rights activists when he argues that sexual orientation is different — a lifestyle choice, not an inborn trait.
By equating homosexuality with race, Baylor said, tolerance policies put conservative evangelicals in the same category as racists. He predicts the government will one day revoke the tax-exempt status of churches that preach homosexuality is sinful or that refuse to hire gays and lesbians.
“Think how marginalized racists are,” said Baylor, who directs the Christian Legal Society’s Center for Law and Religious Freedom. “If we don’t address this now, it will only get worse.”
A person who was capable of self-reflection might be able to see that his homophobia is every bit as objectionable as racism, but self-reflection is too much to ask of someone like Mr. Baylor, a person who is motivated by fear, hatred and a few verses in Leviticus. We should be no more “tolerant” of this hatefulness than we are of the Klan, or of radical Muslims stoning women for being “dishonored” by a rapist. Believe what you want, but don’t stomp your feet like a five year old when others tell you NOT to act out your pathetic superstitions on others around you. Hell, you’re the one with the keys to Heaven, take some damned comfort that you’ll get your reward in eternal bliss for holding the hot coals of your homophobia close to your shrunken little heart.
Personally, I’m fine with them demonstrating just exactly what hateful people they are. I like that they reveal themselves in all of their ugliness, all of their backwards glory. I’m not a big fan of speech codes … I think it’s easier to stomp on roaches when they are running around in the light. What I AM sick of, however, is the constant whining about being “persecuted” when they are confronted and told that persecuting others isn’t appreciated by the rest of us. I’m more offended and disgusted by the wild contortions of language, logic and common sense that these troglodytes create with their bitching.
At a recent conference, there was much discussion amongst the hate-filled right about the dangers posed by the “homosexual agenda” and our society’s coddling of dangerous soddomites:
Homosexuality was singled out for special opprobrium, not only on the panel devoted explicitly to unmasking “the homosexual agenda” (“The Gay Agenda: America Won’t Be Happy”), but throughout the entire conference. On the panel on Christian persecution, for example, two of the four speakers devoted their time to the Christian struggle against homosexuality. Tom Crouse, a Massachusetts pastor who has inaugurated a “Mr. Heterosexuality” contest in his town, spoke of his persecution by officials who billed him for the increased police presence required at his contest when “rabid homosexual activists” showed up at the event. (Crouse also characterized persecution as “a blessing and a joy,” and advised the audience that, “If you are not persecuted,” you have to ask yourself, “are you living a Christian life?”) Meanwhile, Michael Marcavage of Repent America testified about the arrests of several Christian protestors who sought to interrupt a gay event in Philadelphia in order “to show the love of God to those who are lost and damned to hell for all eternity.”
The panel on Hollywood predictably attacked Brokeback Mountain and the recently released V for Vendetta, but also featured an especially peculiar excursus: an analysis of The March of the Penguins, which was praised for not featuring a single gay penguin.
“The gay sensibility,” one speaker informed the audience, is ironic and characterized by the excessively performative use of “air quotes.” Indeed, irony itself is a gay invention, a coping mechanism for gay people who recognize that they don’t really fit in with normal society. Moreover, Chris Carmouche of Grasstops.com, the moderator of the Hollywood panel, singled out academic programs in theatre, film, and performance studies as hotbeds of secular and sexual deviance: Students in such programs, he asserted, “want to attack your values.”
Wow, consumed by hatred AND fucking nuts. No wonder they can’t wait for the next world … they obviously can’t deal with reality. Some would say that pointing out this obvious fact is counterproductive, that we should take care to “respect” people for their religious beliefs. This line of thought is being pushed more and more by the Democratic Party and their experts-at-losing consultants. I have to go with what Sam Harris has to say about it:
The most controversial aspect of my book has been this criticism I make of religious moderates. Most people think that while religious extremism is problematic and polarizing, religious tolerance is entirely blameless and is the remedy for all that ails us on this front.
But religious moderates are giving cover to fundamentalists because of the respect that moderates demand of faith-based talk. Religious moderation doesn’t allow us to say the really critical things we must say about the abject stupidity of religious fundamentalism. And as a result, it keeps fundamentalism in play, and fundamentalists make very cynical and artful use of the cover they’re getting by the political correctness in our discourse.
Religious moderation is just a cherry-picking of scripture, ultimately. It is just diluted Iron Age philosophy. It isn’t a 21st century approach to talking about the contemplative life, or spiritual experience, or ethical norms, or those features that keep communities strong and healthy.
Religious moderation is a relaxation of the standards of adherence to ancient taboos and superstitions. That’s really all it is. Moderate Christians have agreed not to read the bible literally, and not read certain sections of it at all, and then they come away with a much more progressive, tolerant and ecumenical version of Christianity. They just pay attention to Jesus when he’s sermonizing on the Mount, and claim that is the true Christianity. Well that’s not the true Christianity. It’s a selective reading of certain aspects of Christianity. The other face of Christianity is always waiting in the book to be resurrected. You can find the Jesus of Second Thessalonians who’s going to come back and hurl sinners into the pit. This is the Jesus being celebrated in the Left Behind novels. This is the Jesus that half the American population is expecting to see come down out of the clouds.
Wait, though, it’s not just we non-believers who have a problem with this escalating insertion of superstion and religion into the public sphere. Check out Gary Wills:
THERE is no such thing as a “Christian politics.” If it is a politics, it cannot be Christian. Jesus told Pilate: “My reign is not of this present order. If my reign were of this present order, my supporters would have fought against my being turned over to the Jews. But my reign is not here” (John 18:36). Jesus brought no political message or program.
This is a truth that needs emphasis at a time when some Democrats, fearing that the Republicans have advanced over them by the use of religion, want to respond with a claim that Jesus is really on their side. He is not. He avoided those who would trap him into taking sides for or against the Roman occupation of Judea. He paid his taxes to the occupying power but said only, “Let Caesar have what belongs to him, and God have what belongs to him” (Matthew 22:21). He was the original proponent of a separation of church and state.
The continued imposition of religion/superstition/cult-like-behavior into the public sphere is making political change more and more impossible. It’s far past time that a sort of truce be called so that we can all figure out ways to coexist and solve our problems in the world we all share here, in this life. It’s REALLY important that wackjob fundies be confronted on their bigotries, their hatreds, NOT just for some sense of “political correctness”, but because hate and eliminationist language has consequences.
Sometimes, those consequences are deadly.
Romaine Patterson at the fence Matthew Shepard was tied to and left to die
Oh how I love this piece Madman. You hit on so many great things. Even my own brother throws the `special rights’ bullshit at me and it is so debilitating to have a loved one throw the worst of Limbaugh at you (my brother may be southern and a Republican but he disdains religion).
Jesus indeed was no fan of theocracies on Earth yet so many Christian countries either have done it (Italy and Ireland) or veer toward it (the US, dangerously so).
Watching HBO last night I saw a wonderful documentary on a cruise Rosie O’Donnell chartered for gays with children. It showed all these wonderful parents just being themselves with their kids and then the characters you write about in your post show up at the dock in Nassau to harrass them. A few dozen Bahamian wingers scare the children while they scream their hatred toward the families. It was horrendous to watch as they equate gay people with murderers.
Then the Sopranos comes on, and it is a fantastic episode until they film a scene in a gay bar that is so over the top and unreal in its creepiness that it shocked me that people like David Chase and Steve Buscemi (the shows creator and the shows director) were involved in this. Of course the character shown discovered is mincing around in full leather and at shows end has a gun at his bedside.
To be gay is to routinely scratch my head at the cluelessness of others. My sexuality is no different than the color of my eyes, just another ordinary and unchangeable thing about me.
Those claiming the war on Christians would have hatred institutionalized. Whatever happened to “Do unto others as you would have them do to you”? (Luke 6:31) Or has this become radical dogma?
Recommended.
Garry Wills is wrong about Jesus. The Gospel of John is a full blown theology which makes it not reliable as any kind of truth about Jesus. John turns the human being Jesus, who did have a political program, into the Christ. Jesus proclaimed the kingdom of God in contradistinction to the Roman Empire. The kingdom of God, already present in Jesus and his followers, was the antedote to the Roman Empire and its fellow travelling Judean upper class. Jesus had a political/religious program; politics and religion were one in the same in the first century just as they are now in the Muslim world. Rome killed him because he was a threat to their political/religious program which said the emperior was the son of God, the lord of this earth and had the legions to prove it.
Jesus is exactly who we should be using to oppose the American empire of George Bush and the Christofascists in America.
well, not to get into a big theological debate (it’s a fun parlor game, but not really much more than arguing about Angels, pins and whether they Mambo or waltz) …
… but …
you still run into the contradictions of the four accepted gospels, not to mention the Apocrypha. If you accept that the Bible is at some level (pick your level) inspired/directed by God, then you can make Jesus whatever the hell you want him to be. Matthew and Luke are the happy humanist Jesus, I think (been a while, and after I decided it was all crap bits and pieces have been getting dumped from the memory). As a humanist, I happen to like Matthew’s Jesus best, but that’s just like saying I prefer Han Solo to Luke as my favorite character in Star Wars.
IIRC, Wills writes from a Catholic perspective, and the Holy Roman Church has declared the later books part of the Word, so within his framework he’s absolutely right.
The fact that that damned book can be parsed so many ways is just one of many reasons why it has no place in a civil government based upon reason. The whole damned mess defies reason. To start launching theology at each other only plays into the fundie’s hands.
You can oppose them by living as you feel your faith calls on you to live. In this world, so full of different beliefs, we can look at each others’ actions as evidence of belief. If we can’t see any evidence of their beliefs, perhaps then we can infer that they pay only lip service. In any event, I don’t care if Yahweh or Jesus or Allah or Father Sky or Whatever motivates you … what I care about is all of us finding common ground so that we can make all of our lives better. Start throwing in religious commandments as arguments, and you only introduce division.
Another eye opener Madman. Another recommendation. I read Sam Harris’s End of Faith. Thanks for the link to his interview.
thanks.
It’s so important that this perspective enter the public debate. The Democrats pandering to Religion frightens me. We’re dangerously close to losing completely our ties to the Enlightenment ideals of reasoned discourse and an informed and engaged citizenry.
In other words, I forgot to comment. I hit post instead of preview.
Anyway…this is what their point boils down to: I believe I have a constitutional right to stick my nose in your business.
Yeah–respect my authority, or I’ll see you in court.
I tried to find a good picture of Cartman, maybe wearing a Jesus-style robe or something, but I didn’t have any luck.
Scientology garb, perhaps?
:<)
OK, that’s so off-topic. But yeah–that’s the first thing I think about when I hear about these types.
Boo, hoo! You’re OPPRESSING meeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!! You won’t let me tell you what to do!!!!!
Can these people please step the fuck off?!
Sounds like a job for bood abides! Tonight is part two of the mohammed cartoon south Park snark. Ten bucks says we will not see a mohammed caricature. Although I saw in an interview they did one in the past. Should we be talking about this? 😉
Bood is the master at these things!
If at some point in the future the American people decide to have a government, in my opinion, a secular one would be a better choice.
While there is definitely a Christian majority, there are such large differences between the various sects and denominations that I do not think even the traditional compromise of having a secular government and an “official state religion” would work.
Also, a perpetual problem that theocracies must struggle with is that all sacred texts can be interpreted to support opposing views on almost any subject. So scripture-based laws will constantly be called into question, and what results is that the interpretation that is decided on will be the interpretation of the most powerful and/or popular politician, whose preferred cleric may or may not be the most schooled and qualified to render a decision on that particular passage. And even supposing that A) such a thing is possible, and B) that the preferred cleric is indeed the most qualified on this question, he will not be on the next question, and there is a long list of questions.
Islam’s solution to this problem is to bring in a larger body of work that is not even a sacred text, and to that to apply a complicated labyrinthe of mathematical formulae to weight each passage of that body of work, which for all that effort, invariably throws even the purest of heart and most well-intentioned back into what Madman refers to as the parlor game, and of course, with all the previously mentioned political baggage thrown on, and common sense, and most tragic of all, the basic message of all religions, thrown out the window!
So while those who say that this or that religion is not compatible with democracy are wrong, also wrong are those who say that only under the rubric of this or that religion is democracy possible.
All religions are compatible with democracy, in fact, one could argue that all religions, if followed correctly, will naturally produce democracy.
However, one thing that religions share with any of the various secular isms is that when any ism, secular or religious, is placed above the well-being of the people, not only does the state itself fail, but the ism, again, whether religious or secular, is itself, again, thrown out the window.
So while all religions, as well as all isms, with a couple of obvious exceptions, so let us say all isms of good will, 🙂 can provide excellent contributions to both jurisprudence and government as a whole, that contribution consists of the basic principle, and sensible employment thereof that keeps it intact, while leaving the parlor games of angels doing the quebradita or the funky chicken in the parlor, where they, and old men like myself who are the only ones who can tell you exactly what Zoroaster or Abraham meant by this or that because we knew their grandparents, belong.
But will god throw his hat in the ring? Or will he assume through voter intimidation that he is the winner? Or will he run a Mckinley type campaign from his porch. Thats probably more godlike considering he does not lift a finger for natural disasters or cancer and the like. Maybe because he’s not there.
BTW: Duct I’m glad to see you got a taste of the good side of US culture by going to the protest. I can’t bring myself to recommend your diaries after you trashed Jefferson and Franklin (my gods were not perfect or all knowing) but I’m sure they would be proud of you. 🙂
confident will make you absolutely livid, so lay in an extra supply of your preferred nerve and dyspepsia remedies 😉
Ha Ha I will prepare myself ahead of time. Its better to be ready. 🙂
Well, maybe in a society with only that one, maybe one other, religion. Religions have, as one of their few tangible byproducts, an enormous capacity to divide, to break, to set neighbor against neighbor. Look to Europe, where the memory is still fresh of Governments run by religions, to see how quickly people are pushing faith-based policies out of public life.
As that wise sage Peter Gabriel once put it, “How can we be in, if there is no outside?” In fact, the whole thing is instructive of the effects of ANY value system that defines one group as us/good/holy/believers and anybody else as other/evil/unclean/unbelievers:
THAT is the natural end-product of religion, or jingoism, or nationalism or …
it is that putting of any ism above the well-being of the people, and mankind’s worst common Enemy Within, Greed, which does this.
The best aspect of any religion or secular ism is its intention to place checks on and limit greed.
Generally, they only insist on limits to OTHERS’ greed. Their greed is more properly viewed as a reward for being “good”. Look at how hard the American Church and Vatican have pushed back against Liberation Theology, for example. Institutions will ALWAYS put themselves above people, in service of the greed and perks of the people highly placed in the organization. The problem with religion is it surrounds the institution and its leaders within the armor of being Holy, and thus unassailable, thus leading to any number of terrible injustices.
For someone so hard on Jefferson & Franklin, you’re awful forgiving of a human institution that is by far responsible for more death, destruction and misery than any other.
which is purported to be divinely inspired, with man-made institutions which frequently, as you point out, contradict that message.
What has the Vatican to do with the essential message of Jesus?
What has the ideal of freedom and equality to do with slavery?
What has the Constitution to do with the Patriot Act?
In each of the above examples, there are very clear choices to be made.
And just to be perverse and annoying, I will mention a quote (not exact) from the Christian Bible, the one about not being able to serve two masters. 🙂
And as a bonus, here is the world’s most useful prayer, prayable by people of all faiths:
in a higher power, something greater, something nobler, than ourselves, something great enough to have created the world.
How you visualize this concept, whatever mental hook you hang it on, whether that be an old man with a beard, a miraculously appearing blond man in the desert, a multi-armed blue-faced humanoid, or an abstract concept of One-ness and transcendence, is secondary to one’s faith in that something greater and better than me, than we.
The message that emerges, when all religions, from the most ancient and theologically simple, and therefore pure, animistic pantheism, to the endlessly rococo-adorned whorls of icing on the oxymoronic Trinity of Abrahamic cake, is this: love God, love each other.
Live that, and you will serve your God well, whatever and however you conceive, imagine, or hope him, her or it to be, you will enjoy a happy family life, and if that simple principle will be an effective failed-state preventive dentifrice when used in a conscientiously applied program of theological hygiene and regular secular care.
I have always found it interesting that after about 20 years of attending church 3-4 times a week, I NEVER heard a sermon on this story:
Jesus is traveling with his disciples on the Sabbath and they are hungry. He tells them to go into the fields and pick grain. Jesus is challenged when the Pharisees say that picking grain is against the Sabbath laws. His response in Mark 2:27 is “The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath.”
Wonder why the fundamentalist christians don’t like that one?! I think about it often when looking at human moral development. Jesus was calling us to a higher level of morality.
I must say that there are things Jesus is recorded as saying that touch me deeply. But I agree with Madman, that any institution built around them has done nothing but distort.
Personally, I have to agree with Madman. There is no purpose to religion othe rthan control. If I’m a spiritual person i can meet with a group of people and discuss the world i live in and what I see in it i consider mysterious, wonderful, and magical. I don’t have to have a name for God because my idea of God can be so flexible and inbuilt into the person that I am that naming it defeats the point. That’s the point of a spiritual life. (it’s the whole if you see the Buddha on the road kill him’ idea.)
Buuut along people come and they organize a religion and begin to identify in terms of that organization. Automatically, by naming themselves *ian or *ist they are killing off fundamental parts of themselves. They are drawing lines in linguistic sand and defining themselves. Logically, people who are *ians or *ists cannot grow past the frames of reference they have made
It’s a great deal for the organizers but a poor one for the supporters. If people believe something why can’t they just believe it? If they want a community of fellow spiritual seekers just get togther and meet! Why put an arbitrary label on themselves? if it’s right it’s right if it looks right when you first try it on and it later turns out to be wrong you can then dump it in favor of something actually right.
In a nutshell. If you want community, get out and work togther and have conversations. If you want spirituality talk, think, and live the world. People can find out who they are a lot better by thnking, experiencing, and creating, than they can by saying “I am this” and then promptly refusing to explore further.
In a more succinct nutshell; Spirituality is about the exploration (fun) . Religion is about already having the answer (dull)
rest, you said it better than I did.
well said.
We are born into this big gift. And curse. There are mysteries we’ll never know the answers to, or will glimpse out of the corner of our eyes, or they’ll well up and overwhelm us maybe once, or never. We might catch a glimmer at a concert, or sitting on a park bench, or between the thighs of a lover. The best part … it’s always a suprise.
Of course, people are lazy, and they want it spelled out. A map and road, not ill-defined paths and their noses, so they look for short cuts. Religion is the short cut.
I HATE religion, while I love the beauty that is sometimes revealed thru it, because of the faith of people practicing it. The seekers are seldom up front, and they’re seldom demanding others follow their way, at least the true seekers.
I have the utmost respect for spiritual seeking, for personal development. I have NONE for the demands of those who impose, impress or bludgeon with their take on a particular religion.
Life, NOT creeds.
How very profound.
I’ve also seen many an sinner run and hide in religion because someone told them god will forgive all your sins. So it is being used on a daily basis by the average Joe as an opiate for guilt. That is a choice by followers not the christian churches. Moslems are high on religion when they wrap a bomb around their torso and blow themselves up in a rival mosque. No better buzz then going to paradise for acting on your anger.
I realize not all christians and muslims do these things. But when we do not question their basic faith when it is groundless in fact and logic then we open the door for using the message for great and lesser evil. The basic message in the ancient texts are flawed and the followers twist it more.
If you want to believe in something bigger and better then yourself why give it a name and a thousand rules and rituals. Then kill apostates and deny birth control to free minds.
This will stay in my hotlist. It will keep me sane when I want to implode.
Speaking of those “G-d Hates Fags” I saw one on a Bush/Cheney stickered Tahoe. A big red fucker of a truck that also had one of those Jesus fish thingies…
I plastered that mutha with CodePink War Receipts.
Here in NC, Bush and The Fish go together on behemoth vehicles like peanut butter and jelly.
Uhh… let’s clear up a few things. According to the canon, there is no “a few verses in Leviticus” that condemn homosexuality, there is exactly one verse.
Furthermore that verse is very close to other verses which condemn things, including eating shellfish. If you’re going to condemn homosexuality because of your faith, you also need to condemn eating shrimp with equal fervor.
There are dozens of verses in both the OT and NT which reference how a man should treat his wife (and a few on how the wife should treat the man) but very little else in terms of relations. Very little on how a man should treat a woman OTHER than his wife (or mother), so it isn’t like there’s some strict requirement to GET married.
On top of that, Jesus in the canon never mentions once that homosexuality is a sin or wrong or anything else of that nature, despite the fact that it was a practice of the Greeks (and Romans) that was known in Jesus’ time.
There are more admonitions against witchcraft than homosexuality in the OT, if you want to play it that way.
If this woman wants to play the martyr, I would suggest she read her Bible a little more thoroughly.
Pax
On the recommendation of Alice here at the pond I recently read a book “The Alphabet vs the Goddess” which was very enlightening. If I had more time these days I’d love to write a diary about it and get others reactions.
The author’s hypothsesis is that it was the introduction of an alphabet and literacy that changed our culture from one of goddess worship and a value of women to one of partriarchal sky gods. That is because literacy develops our left brain capacities over the right brain.
In the context of this diary, I think the relevant message from the book was about the imposition of written laws over the use of image, story and the natural world as the basis for our spirituality and religious practices. Very interesting!!
that sounds really interesting. It also raises an interesting possibility: with the rise of the ‘net, multimedia, new communication tech … can a synthesis of written word and image, codified law with stories form something completely new, taking the best of both patriarchy and matriarchy?
I’m not sure I totally buy his theory – but at the end of the book he credits the transformation during the late 60’s and early 70’s to coming from the first generation raised on the visual medium of tv. So, he would answer your question with a hearty “yes”!!
“The message is, you’re free to worship as you like, but don’t you dare talk about it outside the four walls of your church,” said Stephen Crampton
God Damn Right.
I also have the right not to listen to their bullshit too. Or does that only apply to their sweet asses when it comes to their freedoms?
The haters and the bullies would remain haters and bullies even if there were no such thing as religion.
Those who insist that others have to be wrong in order for them to be right, or that others have to be bad in order for them to be good, will find some twisted philosophy to serve as self-justification. Being able to claim that a deity is on one’s side is useful, but not essential.
After all, the theory of evolution has been perverted into Social Darwinism by those who wish to rationalize their greed and privilege. I don’t think that means that we should toss out “The Origin of Species.”