Recently, (and by recently I mean the last several months) there have been a number of conflicts here among those of us who most frequent this place that BooMan has created. Conflicts that have led to injured feelings, angry words directed toward other posters, and in some instances the departure of some very prominent members of this community. People that I have been personally saddened to see depart.
Among these, perhaps no one has been more missed by me than Susanhu, but I am certain that many of you can say the same about any number of other writers who no longer grace us with their presence. Everyone who has felt the need to move on has left a gap, and opened a wound among those of us who relished hearing their voices and reading their stories.
I am not a particularly wise person. I am not more passionate or intelligent or perceptive or caring than anyone else here. Indeed, I consider myself far inferior to many of you in those areas, and I know for a fact I am not as good a writer as any number of you whose diaries I cherish reading, even though happenstance and fate have gifted me with the opportunity to appear on the front page of this blog. So I can’t assure you that what I have to say to this community at this time will be especially helpful or constructive. Nonetheless, I feel the need to speak out, even if what I have to say may be woefully inadequate, and may benefit no one other than myself.
(Continued below the fold)
All communities are fragile things, and none more so than communities which depend solely upon the written word to communicate the myriad of thoughts and emotions, ideas and understanding, upon which all communities rely. On-line communities are sui generis in this respect. We have no way to judge a person’s intent other than the symbols they place upon a screen. We cannot look into their eyes as they speak, cannot assess tone of voice or body language, see the quick smile or the hurt look, sense the need for acceptance even as we hear angry or spiteful words uttered by their lips.
Nor is there the chance to take a person aside to comfort them or to engage them one to one in order to draw out the deeper meaning of their thought, a meaning of which perhaps they themselves are not fully aware. Most of all, what we struggle with online is a lack of immediacy — immediacy in response and immediacy in understanding. We cannot see the effect our words have on others, cannot truly sense the hurt or despair others feel at what we have said, cannot clear up misunderstandings that we could recognize if we could see them register on the faces of those to whom we have spoken. All we have are words, composed after a lag of time, and fashioned in the same ignorance of our intentions that we have of theirs.
Human beings are social animals. Our brains have developed to take in a vast array of information about our fellow animals, and from that glean what is most relevant for assessing the hearts and minds of our associates. Without the full extent of that information, which is normally available to us in face to face encounters, we are in a very real sense blind. Is it any wonder then that our judgments of others here can go so easily awry, when all we have to share are our written communications?
All of us came here for our own reasons. Some, like me, may have followed particular writers here, because we so admired what they had to say and the manner in which they had to say it. Others, because friends who they had found elsewhere online invited them to come here and join this community. Still others may have stumbled upon this place and, having discovered like minded individuals and a common outlook toward the ever frightening events of our times, decided to stay and participate with those of us who were already here. Whatever the reason, whatever the motivation for joining this online family (for it is a family) we have all chosen this place and found something in it that we could not find elsewhere. It is the need to find others who feel the same outrage at the tumultuous and sinister events of our times, and who share our ideals and goals, our hope and despair, which binds us together.
Yet, paradoxically, that same commonality can also keep us apart. Because we are all very different people, with very different life experiences. Many of our educational and occupational backgrounds differ one from the other. Our ages and our genders, our childhoods and our nationalities and our ethnic and racial heritages all differ. Some of us are disabled in either body or mind, or, as in my case, both. Some are more sensitive to criticism, others more immune to confrontation and its effects. Some have an aggressive or angry online persona, others a more passive or phlegmatic one. None of us can see each other to fully assess the type of individual with whom we correspond. We have no shared history apart from this place. All we have to judge is what we read, and that can lead to grievous errors, for how and what we write is often very dissimilar to the personalities we exhibit when we are not online.
Let me use myself as an example (indeed, I am the only example I should use). I have been online now since 2001, participating in various forums and communities, from those devoted solely to politics, to others devoted to poetry, law, philosophy and history. In each instance I show something a little bit different about the person I am, a thin slice of my true self as it were.
In poetry forums I am cautious because I lack a background in literature, and I tend to relate to people very carefully, praising their efforts and seeking greater knowledge from those who I sense are better writers of poems than I.
In history forums, on the contrary, I often came across as a know it all, someone at times a bit overly pompous and assertive of my own opinions, because history has long been a favorite subject of mine, one I have pursued over the course of my lifetime. I displayed there the arrogance that many of us can present to the world with respect to areas in which we assume (rightly or wrongly) that we have a certain expertise that others lack.
In philosophy forums I played the student to those who I knew had a greater knowledge of their subject than I did. On the other hand, I was often quite combative to those who professed beliefs with which I strongly disagreed. I had long and fruitless arguments over the nature of free will, or the origin of moral behavior. Indeed, on certain sites devoted to the philosophy of Ayn Rand I was even described as a troll because I was constantly questioning (and mocking) the validity of beliefs that her devotees so adamantly assert as the sine qua non of human existence.
In my political posts I can present myself in a variety of poses, though the use of sarcasm, outrage and despair often tends to dominate my writing, especially when I am in a hurry and take little time to moderate the deep anger I feel at the way our country has been diverted into evil by the current leaders of the Republican party. In a word, I can be quite shrill, and I make no apologies for that.
But none of the writing I’ve posted in these very different environments, addressed to very different audiences, truly expresses who I am in my opinion. And the same is true for each of you who post here. For no words can express all there is to know about any human being, not even the words we write about our own lives.
I was very fortunate last September, because I had the opportunity to go and meet a number of you when my son and I traveled to Washington, DC for the antiwar protest march. I had an opportunity to spend real time with many of the people that I knew of only through what they posted here at BT, or at the other liberal blog communities I frequent. And the effect of that face to face meeting was very liberating for me.
Meeting Salunga and Supersoling, Damnit Janet and Military Tracy, Tampopo and Boston Joe, Cabin Girl and RenaRF, BooMan and Mary Scott O’Connor, Teacher Ken and Pastor Dan, and so may others, was a revelation. For the first time I could put faces to names, voices to written words, and three dimensions of flesh and blood to what I had only perceived dimly through the 2 dimensions of my computer screen.
No one was quite what I expected, not even Mary Scott O’Connor, who perhaps came closest to her online persona of anyone I met, and yet still had aspects to her character that I would not have guessed she possessed had I not had the pleasure of meeting her face to face. Frankly I came away humbled from what I had learned about these people, and humbled even more by how wrong so many of my assumptions about them had been.
To give but one brief example, based on what I had read, I expected Military Tracy to be consumed by anger and fear for her family and friends serving in the military. I was not prepared for the warm and generous spirit she displayed, and the calm outward strength she exhibited. She was nothing like I had expected, because I had made the fundamental error that I think many of us make here: I simplified who she was by considering only what I had read in her diaries and comments. But that is far too little, far to few data points as it were, on which to base an opinion about someone’s character or personality.
Perhaps many of you have made the same mistake about someone who posts here, someone with whom you may have had a confrontation that you didn’t expect and which led to anger and bitterness on your part. It is all to easy to forget that written words can deceive easier than they can reveal, and misunderstandings and hurt feelings are far more likely to arise when we cannot see the person who is speaking to us across this impersonal void we refer to as the internet. Yes, it can connect many of us across great distances, but it can also hide the person to whom we are attempting to communicate, and that is its greatest weakness.
I am willing to bet that those who met me in Washington last Fall were very surprised to discover that I am not much like I appear in print: less assertive, and much more shy and awkward socially than I may come off in the diaries I post here, or in the comments I make to others’ diaries. I suffer from depression, fatigue and numerous physical ailments. And I struggle every day to find the words to write to justify my position here at Booman Tribune, a position I rarely feel I deserve. A person less intelligent, less moral, and less wise that I sometimes try to pass myself off as.
So what is my point? Not a very large one perhaps. Not a startling revelation or brilliant analysis of the group dynamics of online communities. No, it is far less profound than that; a prayer almost. That we all remember the limitations of this medium, and also remember that on the other side of the cables and wires which divide us from each other sits a real person, much like you, with the the usual catalogue of hopes, fears and foibles to which our species is so often prone.
A real person who may not understand what you have written, or who may write something that you find offensive which he or she never intended to cause such distress. A real person as likely to make mistakes of judgment as you are, as likely to say reckless and hurtful things in the spur of the moment (and under the cloak of internet anonymity) as any one of us are capable of doing. A person as needy and unhappy one moment, and as loving and caring the next, as you or I. In short, another human being who deserves our respect, compassion, and sometimes our forgiveness.
And that is all I have to say.
We were all united when it all seemed so hopeless also. I guess we had a common enemy. Without this common enemy though we must strive for something far more important than being the AntiBush because avoidance behavior isn’t standing for anything….it is only running away from something. I left on Friday afternoon and I didn’t read anything from my Friday rant diary after that until this morning. Some comments hurt, but for whatever reason I am seeing beyond the hurtful attacks because I can see that everybody has been hurt by what has happened in Iraq. I’m not going any place though (how weird because my husband refuses to leave the Army right now too because he says that he would lose any chance he really had of making a difference in all of this shit if he did) and I think I will continue to bring military issues to the table here so that as we grow and heal we will once again step forward and define what our version of America’s Military is going to be about and what it’s goals are. We will have a military. It isn’t an option to not have one and stay any kind of free nation or anything that would remain a democracy because some dictator with a military would only wake up one morning and decide we needed his or her special guidance.
and me in person is that I seldom swear out loud….but wow do my fingers ever swear…like sailors they do!
Tracy, you will never know just how hard it is for thsi sailor to not swear…;o) I resolve this by using my medical terms for the most part..but you have never heard swearing that I can do….I have to wire my mouth shut at time..hugs girl..and I am with you in the greater fight…loveya, Girl..and your family…hugs…
you are a sweetie. I know we disagreed over some things in the past, but, after reading more of your writings and your comments, I have a better idea of who you really are. And, I think that you are pretty cool. So you swear. So do I, only I don’t wire my mouth shut.
I
;O)..I knew you would come to understand me in the end of it all…besides, I took your advice and read more of what you are about too….so see there, we do have something in common after all…we want the same things. hugs…and we did not have to argue about it.. and we did come to understand each other better…
And I am glad!:)
me 2…:o)
Tracy, you’re one of my heroes.
God bless you and your family.
in D.C. you became one of my heros.
And I didn’t have a problem w/it, other than I wasn’t sure on how to respond.
Military issues are important, I agree. But, so are civilian issues, specifically, health care and disability issues. That is why I have been concentrating almost exclusively on Medicare D(isaster) and it’s impact.
It just seems to me that there is a common ground between the two but, some health care and social issues appear to have taken second place for too long. And I have been trying to find that–the common ground.
I mean, people are all the same inside, it’s just that their life experiences are different. Those directly have an impact on their views.
into military issues or civilian issues — because overall, they are human issues.
What we’re going through now with Medicare D(isaster) is just the tip of the iceberg, as this misAdministration “supports the troops” by slashing veterans health care, which will probably force many of them to file for Medicare disability benefits and get caught in the hell of BushCo’s creation (with the acquiescence of some of those on the Democrat side of the congressional aiele — would love a link to who voted for this monster).
Those on the right love to divide us — red state vs. blue state, military vs. civilian, white vs. non-white, straight vs. gay…convincing us that we have to live in fear of everyone, even our neighbors…because if we get too close to other people, we might find out we have more in common than we think…
You’re so right Cali. So many times I despair because with all of the horrible things happening in our country, some of the issues I care about most deeply don’t even get discussed.
Mostly those have to do with the deteriorating quality of life in our urban areas and the racism that this often displays. Things like the federal government basically pulling out of funding for housing and child protection, education, and our out of control criminal justice system. For the first time in history, our county is spending more this year on court/corrections costs than they are on all of human services. We’re probably late to that party on that one – but this is Minne-fucking-sota for chrisakes.
Well, excuse my language – but you see, there is a lot that’s been bottled up for a loooong time.
Remember a story in some paper where a person actually wanted to be arrested for the following reasons: food and medical care. But, the underlying thesis of this was when one is a prisoner, he/she has consitutional rights that cannot be violated. In a warped way the logic of the article made sense. (And I have no clue as to where I found it, otherwise I would link to it–it was just one of those oddball things I read once.)
Those on the right love to divide us…military vs. civilian…because if we get too close to other people, we might find out we have more in common than we think…
All that I have been repeatedly trying to say is that is what is going on now! All of the human services are being cut. And, the military human services (and I know that I am using the words loosely here, if in fact I am using the correct terminology), are the only ones that are not being cut as drastically as civilian services are. And that is a fact, more will advocate for not reducing military human services as much as civilian services have been. The fact of the matter is that veterans benefits are more than some w/a disability on SSD/I receive and the health care delivery system is better.
Can you imagine the outcry if veterans would have to go thru all of the Medicare D(isaster) nonsense in order to get a life-saving rx filled? When trying to sign up for Medicare D(isaster) do you know how many different phone numbers I had to call? (My computer was down and I had pneumonia at the time.)
If I had a dollar for everytime I heard, “I don’t know.”, “My caseload is too big.”, “The person that you want to talk to has taken the day off/is sick (Yeah, right.)/in a meeting (Translated: surfing the net at the taxpayer’s expense.)/on vacation and will return your call when he/she gets back.” (Never happenned.) “Call this number.” (Only to get referred back to where I originally started.) I wouldn’t need SSD/I.
And that is what happenned. Don’t ask me how I managed to get everything necessary done, looking back, I can’t tell you.
A quick point to bring us back to why we do this, at least why I am doing it. If you cannot take criticism of any kind from the relative left, how will you ever survive the criticisms from the far right?
It’s kind of like having a conversation with a McDonald’s commercial and even though my questions and concerns and ideas change….their response stays the same because it is a slogan. It can bring on a headache though. I feared them until I really met them in Crawford and one of them stood in the ditch on the other side of the road surrounded by the rest of them and held up his sign proclaiming “Help, I’m surrounded by Stupid Americans!”. On the Left hand though, Lefties tend to be bright and good with words and thereby very skillful with their daggers when they choose to use them. Now if you can survive the pissed off Lefty dagger attack during this snapshot in history…..you could be getting someplace at being able to detach a bit from too much emotion and wedding some gray matter to it all and being really really affective.
Exactly! The right has repeatedly been abusive to different segments of the population, by forcing their bs down everyone’s throat.
What is wrong w/calling people on that when some of the tactics used appear to be similar?
It comes across (by some people–NOT you) that a person who posts here is not allowed to make their own decisions. And, why isn’t my right to make my own decisions respected?
That is one thing that has really been bugging me.
…andn upon being critized, I find it a good thing to make me want to learn more about something. Thank you…hugs
I have learned alot from you. Don’t know if you remember it, but thetimes I was posting/talking about my Dad are really helpful, as are your responses.
Actually, Street Kid, I think many could learn a lot about our evolvment here. I can only speak for myself in this regard. I chose not to be confrontial. I had to step back and reflect. Once I did, I got my act together, as did you. We are smart ppl, if you ask me…:o) Hugs and hope to chat more about things that involve making our world a better place. After all that is what it is all about anyhow…right???? The issues of the military are the very same issues of the civilian world. poverty, bad healthcare, no real drug benefit, going hungry, death and living…they all are alike in one fashion or the other. It is the job discriptions that is different is all…..We all take huge risks from day to day in our lives. It is how we accept this risk taking that matters…Thanks again for your kind and accepting words…and btw, yes I do remember the fact of y our not understanding how your father felt and why…I am glad I could explain this to you. This always makes for a better day for me to help someone…anyone…..
Yeah, there are a lot of similarities and a lot of differences as well. And, the differences are not always what is understood, as each views them from their own perspective. The differences/perspectives are what is needed to be brought together to bring about change for all.
I think you have been VERY profound here Steven, and thank you for opening the conversation.
I am one that is actually drawn to the conflicts – not the hurt feelings that usually ensue though. In my family it was avoidance of direct conflicts that was used to control other’s thinking. So I have a real hunger to learn how to have open conflict in a healthy way.
One of the ways people are obviously different is in how they handle conflict. Some are completely dispassionate about it, others extremely emotional. Some are attracted to it and some avoid it like the plague. Some are direct and confrontational while others are more passive. I was recently fascinated when I read some information that described how these styles of handling conflict are sometimes culturally-based.
When you add this to all you describe about the limits of on-line communication – as well as our own personal hot-spots that are not often seen by others until they blow – its no wonder it is a struggle. But I, for one, think its a struggle worthy of our engagement.
I don’t have any answers on how to engage in useful constructive disagreement and dialogue, other than to remember at all times to show respect for the person with whom you disagree and a willingness to listen to their point of view.
Aside from that I’m open to anyone’s ideas on how to make conflict and confrontation fruitful rather than destructive.
From my persepctive the number one faux pas any blog community or community leader/censor can make is to censor legitimate responses so that the group tends to evolve into nothing but like-minded cheerleaders. I hate that, but it almost seems like human nature! Better offended people leave rather than to revert to this faux pas, IMO
I am not sure that on-line confrontation can be immediately fruitful. Because of the physical limitations, nuance just isn’t possible. Nuance often comes across as sarcasm or disengagement, which often fuels the fire sitting at a computer thousands of miles away.
Even respect is difficult to show on a screen, as a statement such as, “I understand and respect your position, but…” can sound, to angry eyes, as “yeah, yeah, whatever, but I say….”
Conflict is as natural as floods. The re-building process is where we often learn the most difficult lessons.
I try to think before I write, is this something I would say to this person’s face? I forget to do that sometimes though.
I’m not sure there’s more to it than that Steven. Especially the part about listening to try to undertand the other’s point of view. Once our feelings get hurt – that’s the hard part. I think we go into defense mode and can’t listen. I know that on a couple of occassions, I was able to listen and wound up hearing something different than I thought I had originally heard from the person I had taken offense from. For me it means staying curious rather than getting defensive and angry. But that’s really hard when someone has hit a soft spot.
As someone who purposely stays out of the fray, I appreciate your eloquence on this matter. I also appreciate that you have addressed this on the front page.
at the SoCal meetup was the fact that I really get pissed at myself for hooking in. I know I am one of the most guilty at not knowing when to let go and shut up. I asked my fellow pond dwellers for help with this. It is about learning and growing and using this medium in a constructive way. I admit I can be a slow learning but promise this community to continue working on this defect of character.
I have been most blessed to meet many of you in person and putting a face and a voice, body language and yes even dance(some of you know what i mean)to the written words is amazing. One fellow tribber even said they were nervous about meeting me and felt they better understood my written word after meeting me. I am not sure if they was good or bad but they were honest enough to tell me that and I appreciated it.
We have a wonderful opportunity here to really make a difference. I for one will continue to strive to be the change I want to see in the world. Thank you Steven for a most wonderful post. Thank you Boofamily for being patient with me and kind enough to tell me when I am out of line. I am a passionate, emotional, sensitive person. Really…lol.I love you guys and gals.
While I do read those diaries, I choose to stay out of the conflicts. I suppose I can understand that that action may be seen as ambivelent or uncaring, but that is far from the truth. After a certain point, I just really don’t think anything I have to type can ameliorate the hurt feelings/ upsets/ misunderstandings, so I stay out. I recognize that there are others here who do have a way — a gift? — of stepping in and trying to calm the waters. Thank you for your thoughtful post … I think you represent the front page of BT extremely well Steven.
Hi olivia..I was just thinking about you and our FenceSitters Club. I like you read, then half the time end up not making any postings because I don’t know what to say or it’s already been said better than I could.
It’s not that I particularly want to avoid conflict it’s more I can see points from both sides and can’t formulate a decent response that might help or have any wisdom in it.
This is a good diary though by steven and I’m glad it is on the frontpage-spirited discussion is always always good as long as respect is maintained or finally just agree to disagree.
Choc inc…as for me..things such as this always happen when I am at work or away…then this slides by without me even a notice from me. I had to go and research that which was being discussed…I just hate to see feelings hurt and leaving because of this. This is not good for anyone and for the community as a whole..for now I just MIGHT not make a comment for fear of hurting someone’s feelings..not good..for I am so forthright on my talk…I do not beat around any bush, and no pun intended here, that I do get into trouble at times….:o) I am sortta of the Olivia camp tho…hugs to all…
hi brenda..it’s a bit weird-I’m here every day yet when the whole thing with susanh happened I was not here for a few days and I came back and had no idea what the hell had happened. I was really clueless. I did pick up a bit just from what people still were talking about but like I said it was weird. The one thing I do know is that I do miss susan very very much-she was very much the heart and soul of the front page for me.
And I always love reading your posts by the way. It seems you have a true thirst for knowledge and information that comes through which I wish many more people had.
Thanks for a very thoughtful post. I, too, very much miss SusanHu. Where did she go, and why?
I must be one of the phlegmatic ones, because I have the impression that this is a very courteous site, as compared to Dkos, where the rhetoric sometimes gets out of hand (I’ve had a hand in that on a few occasions). But you’re right: a person in the flesh is not the same as a persona in print. I’d love to meet some of the people who regularly post here, but on a certain level, it isn’t necessary, because we share at least a part of what we are here.
“Recently, (and by recently I mean the last several months) there have been a number of conflicts here among those of us who most frequent this place “
Nothing, of course, is ever simple. Entropy happens, and our beloved communities and institutions change, too. They must or die. As someone who has been part of the on-line community (and politically active since Saul Alinsky and The Woodlawn Project)my experience has been that those groups which hope to stay the same forever always die because at some point new blood challenges old assumptions, and new loves threaten old ones.
Stephen’s plea for consideration, courtesy and universal inclusion is meet and proper as long as it’s remembered that hierarchy is only maintained at the expense of those excluded.
I, too, miss Susan. I thought she profoundly contributed here even if I never did fully understand the conflicts that drove her away. I wondered then and wonder now if that’s all there was to it.
New people come in, and bring with them not only new ideas but new allegiances. The very fact of those new loyalties may cause hurt and seem to display disrespect, though none may have been intended.
If any community…..if this special one…..is to survive it can’t be the sole burden of the newer members to “fit in.” We all need the tension between old and new to refine our ideas, make us think, fuel our struggle to improve. To do that, sometimes we need to change in ways we would rather not.
This joint is about politics, and politics are dangerous. People get passionate, and people get upset, Without for one moment condoning nastiness, sometimes we all have to learn to get past the blow-ups. Conflict is part of the game, but nurturing grievances ought not to be, and not allowing oneself to get past the first injury ain’t productive either.
Those who can’t will leave. It was ever thus, and always will be. People sometimes fight. We should all strive to keep our voices down while we remain prepared to accept “humaness” simultaneously. Anyone who comes here only to fight, injure and maim will not long last.
Neither should the martyr. Everyone in between should be able to muddle through.
There is a prominent poster who perceives intolerance towards Muslims on this blog, who posts this:
This was the conclusion of a longer post. He is not challenged by any Americans here who could have asked if America is “Somalia with money” or “The Great Satan” why do millions of people risk their lives for a chance to live and work there? Why do over 60% of the electorate (including most of the people here) struggle to preserve its democracy against the Bush administration? He is not challenged on his over-the-top intolerant comment. Recently he WAS challenged by SallyCat who he so offended, she has left the blog. That’s a conflict.
I will go back and find the larger comment that DTF wrote because this small example doesn’t shed much light on what he’s talking about. I often read his comments and don’t understand what he’s getting at, so skilled is he at cloaking toxic daggers in poetry, innuendo and sarcasm.
But I want to say that this business of calling out people by name who have rated a certain comment a certain way is, IMO, rude and unnecessary.
SN, I have been here for a year now. He has hurt my feelings more than once. I find it easier to not comment to him than to confront him. I have confronted him only twice and I have felt overcome by someone who does not understand my words of does not want to understand my words…so I do not waste my words on ignorance..I do not argue with ignorance either..for in doing so it hurts me more then the other person. Therefore and consequently, I stay totally away from this sort of thing. Standing down is not ome of my more favorable thing to do, if I feel I am right…and I will usually follow thorugh with my argument if the other person is worth the fight, that is…
to post something that is on the public record available to any poster. I don’t think so.
You are the one who wanted the whole comment but you don’t want to know who recommended it?
By pointing me to the comment I can check out who reco’ed it if I so choose. I think it’s confrontational to list who did. If as you say it’s at the end of a very long and otherwise good comment, maybe they are 4-ing that.
I supposed that this is a diary where issues are laid out in the hopes of some resolution. My point was, not only was DTF NOT challenged for the comment, it was met with some approval.
You have just described DTF’s technique wherein he posts a seemingly reasonable comment which cloaks his intolerant remarks.
Honestly, I must not be as smart as I thought, because I don’t get his comment. It goes right over my head. In those instances I don’t rate.
Just so we’re all clear: DTF is an arrogant America-Hater. He’s also an extremely gifted writer who has often touched my heart. Sometimes he takes positions that curl my toes and make me clench my teeth in rage. But, must we challenge him? Doesn’t allowing free speech mean anything?
ditto, exactly!!!!!!!!!!! Thank y ou..
with all my heart. She and I cannot talk politics. We are at total opposite ends of the spectrum. So, we have agreed to diagree. But, sometimes, she will say one of the most bogoted, hateful things about something/someone and I cannot not challenge her. To me, there is a HUGE difference between free speech and hate speech. If someone is an eloquent speaker or a talented, charming at times writer does that then excuse them for their bigotry and hate?
does that then excuse them for their bigotry and hate?
Don’t know if you’re still talking here about Ductape. But if you are, I have found that he tends to communicate to get a reaction – and he’s often successful with that. But if you listen long enough, it is not hate or bigotry – but his cloaked language that has led us to assume that. I think it would be advantageous to challenge him about this style of communication, but not to accuse him of bigotry and hate. Just my humble opinion.
Nope…talking about human beings in general.
Why not challenge? I just got challenged for leaving names in the blockquote. Challenge does not mean censorship or banning, it means debate. It means asking the poster, on what basis he makes those comments, or why does he never displays evidence, like, links, quotes, stats for his posts.
I thought that was the raison d’etre of this blog, political debate.
I’m a Canadian, so I didn’t feel that I should challenge the American hate comments but I wondered why Americans were letting them go by.
And speaking of free-speech, remember SusanHu?
I have seen no shortage of people being willing to challenge DT here – I have done it myself on a couple of occassions. As a matter of fact, one of my concerns is that he so often becomes the scapegoat for conflicts that are actually engaged in by many from a variety of viewpoints.
of challenges to him when he berated SusanHu for weeks. I remember it well.
I would just ask that you try to understand that the discussion was MUCH more complicated than whether we sided with Susan or DT. There were lots of voices weighing in from many different sides. And I do remember many challenges to all sides happening there. It wasn’t just about DT and Susan. If there is anytime that I shut down from the conversation (and others have said in this diary as well) its when I feel like to do so would be to step into a discussion that is nuanced and we don’t want to take sides.
and it is one I made also yesterday, to someone else, so please do not take this as singling you out.
In my opinion, when describing what other posters said, it would be more helpful to those reading your comment – and give it more impact – if you could provide links.
I hope you will consider this suggestion, and forgive my intrusion into a discussion that is not really any of my business. π
Respectfully, DTF, that would be a Herculean effort in this case.
If one person berated another for weeks, I would think it would be easy to find a few links.
And in addition to illustrating the poster’s point, for the benefit of those who might have missed these weeks of berating, the site administrators might appreciate having something like that called to their attention too!
I remember in one diary that I wrote, I used the words “eligibility criteria” when referring to health care sevices being provided. You corrected me w/you use of the words “human beings in need of medical treatment.”
That one sentence/phrase really opened my eyes to many things that I was not previously seeing, or was blinded by, due to my social services experiences.
Thanks, again.
this issue, and I know that tireless is not accurate, I am sure you get tired, I know you have some health issues of your own, but I do not think that you keep pounding away at it because of self-interest, but to do all that you can so that one day, human beings in need of medical treatment will be able to get it. π
that knowing his general position, must we challenge him every single time he makes an anti-American comment? That would be incredibly tiresome and time-consuming.
Let me make my point more clearly: Challenging is good. You either change your mind or stand your ground more firmly. In your case, I like that you named-names. So often these threads dance around the instigating event and we don’t talk about what’s really going on. So I cut to the chase in my response and came to the basic issue: free speech, i.e., the right to take positions that offend others. In a comment down-thread, I riffed about how being offended to the point that you leave a community has more to do with you than with the person who offended.
SusanHu did not stand her ground. She let a few people harass, embarrass and drive her into withdrawal. I wish she had told them to fuck-off but, she didn’t. I wish I hadn’t been in the hospital when that fracas occurred or I would have told them to fuck-off. I miss her and wish she would come back and put a cartoon of Ali Baba on the front page again.
Thank you. From what I remember you were supportive at the time. But you are right about the tedium, as if by mere repetition, statements can be made true. No, they all cannot be challenged.
I miss Susan too. The blog needs her expert editing and writing, in my opinion. I feel that the issue was never really resolved. I won’t speak for Susan or to your analysis. I will say it was more than “a few people.”
But hey, she has Lewis H. Lapham on her side according to his April essay “Mute button” in Harper’s. Her new writings have been recommended by James Wolcott, no less. Good company for a journalist, no?
I have seen you do it before. It doesn’t lead me to think at all well of you.
And actually, I’d love to see someone try and explain how the United States has not been ovewhelmingly an oppressive force in the world during my lifetime (though, hey, I’d settle for the last 30 years). I suspect that the mental gymnastics and contortions required would provide me with considerable amusement and frankly I could use a really good laugh.
You forgot to add ‘in my opinion.’
I have no need or time to play games like ‘baiting.’
I was pointing out intolerance by a person who claims to have a high sensitivity against intolerance. I call that exposing hypocrisy and yes I have tried to expose hypocrisy before, you may have noticed. But by all means if you want to call it ‘baiting’ in your own mind, go right ahead.
you may not have explained how the U.S. hasn’t been a force for oppression over the last 30 years, but that’s ok because you surely have given me a good laugh.
The notion that what you’re doing here is exposing hypocrisy is really funny. You could have applied that label to me easily enough, followed my diaries and comments about and tried subtly to shame those poor misguided folks who gave me 4’s into repenting of their wicked ways. And if you had accused me of hypocrisy, the charge would stick.
I do keep silent too often when I should speak, preach courage while I practice cowardice, and counsel bold speech when my every word is tailored for the censor.
DTF doesn’t. He has something of a knack for unpalatable truths, and his political commitments are fairly plain for all to see. And (I surmise from reading between the lines)he still thinks people are mostly decent. I’d imagine that to be a fairly painful combination.
But if he actually was a hypocrite, you’d not bother baiting him. Because what would be the point?
All I would like to say is the lesson from grammar class. The English teacher would say I’m criticizing your writing not you–i.e. don’t take it personally. And if you get to wrapped up in the political morass, then goto the Froggybottom cafe!
And those who quit this blog the some advice from my old basketball coach..quitters never win. Personally, I got kicked off another blog…..supposedly for spamming a minute man diary. Who’s loss thiers or mine, I don’t know.
I come here to learn. HOpefully to add something to this community that only I can do. I know there are others here like Steve and me, that are more informed and educated to things that will always forward the watch of being most helpful in words and thoughts.
I find fighting should be left up to the military or between those who really have face to to face ablilty. I researched the affair, after listening and learning as to what was said, for I was nto around for the last bru ha ha. Found it very disgusting from what was said. There is no reason to make others feel like they need to determine what is right or wrong. When one feels intimated, then they will most usually say things that is hard to feel good about. NO matter what you feel about America, it is our home, and if you dislike it or its citizens both int he military or at home, then leave to see what life is like in another part of the world..I grant you, you will be praying to come back to America. There is no other place on this earth that is quite like America…Our leaderships is wrong for the time being and it will come to stop and will not be potent. The rest of the world and our citizens will see to that! This is what our democracy is like and so different than that of other democracies.
Our constitution is great! NO one can and will be allowed to break the commune it offers us. now hear me on this one..NO ONE!!!! NOt even gwbush and his likes! They just arent that strong…NO one is that strong.
I love you Steven. I for the most part love everyone here. Some more so than others, for I know you more than I do them, for now, that is. We are here to fight the good fight for our party or beliefs. All I can say, is stop and think before one says what they mean and I am included in that one as well.
I have had to explain myself for what I wrote and I hate to do that so I try hard to just say it as simple and how I feel without much adue.
Now I would hope that we all could start to act like adults instead of children and get busy loving our fight together for the better good…stop fighting each other…Hugs to all…and you all know me andy ways of things..I am so transparent, it aint funny…I wished I could be mroe of a mystery than I really am….;o)
in this lifetime to have learned all of the many different things that I have discovered and learned here from all the many people who have taken on certain vital and frightening issues confronting our nation right now. My husband has said that when he has to make an aircraft transition and learn how to fly and use a new airframe that when he attends the schooling for it it is like being force fed all of that information via a firehose. If one is willing, being a member of this blog and reading the many different issues that so many have spent so much effort and time researching and writing about is so utterly the exact same thing. Sometimes I am clueless to how much I have consumed in raw facts and data until I step outside and have face to face conversations with someone. It is completely freaky how someone can give me the propaganda spiel whether that be right wing or DLC and I will listen but have to reflect on this persons diary and that persons diary I have read here so I share different facts that I know…..so then the person I’m conversing with will jump to a different area of propaganda and I will open heartedly listen but the whole dynamic starts up all over again as I come upon more facts that I learned and gleaned from a multitude of other diaries. I had such a 30 minute conversation today with someone and at the end realized that I must be a really bizarre person to talk to right now…..I’m like this weeks current Political and Social Issue Encyclopedia of Britannica. For some people I don’t think I’m much fun either. If you’re someone who gets hopped up on and thrives on right wing spin I bet I’m instant portland cement the moment I hit your aura.
that made BooTrib different from other on-line communities was Diane101’s “Tell Us About You” diaries. When the Pond only had a small population, most of us bravely shared details about ourselves. And when it comes to most of the active participants here, I do have dimensions beyond screen ID’s: age, race, general location, number of children, social and professional background, state of health/disease, smoker/non, drinker/non, etc. This has contributed to the feeling that we “know” each other.
But, we still don’t know more than we could learn thru an internet dating service. You’re right, Steven, when you say we lack the visual and sensory clues that might spare us hurt feelings or shock when someone appears to deviate from what we think we know about them. But, I don’t think this is why some people depart after an upset…
It isn’t what we learn about someone else that sends us away; it’s what we learn about ourselves. Invariably, what I see happen is: Someone gets angry, loses control and calls someone an “asshole.” Or, someone gets personally offended and finds themselves seething in front of a cold monitor, sputtering irrational verbage thru a keyboard. Or, they get their feelings hurt and sit all alone weeping.
There’s a disconnect about getting emotional about something that is not quite real. It’s just words on a screen; it’s people without faces. It’s not Real Life. I’ve experienced each of the moments I described above; I always feel like I should get up and clean my house, or go out and work in my garden, or get out and meet some “real people.” I ground myself out and return to interact with my “virtual friends” here.
Others react more extremely to these moments because they don’t have the full realization of the disconnect; they are caught in confusing virtual life with real life. They are frankly embarrassed about losing emotional control, can’t get over being angry or hurt because they are too emotionally invested in their on-line life. So, they feel like they have to give up the whole activity, go on a months-long hiatus, get back in touch with themselves, etc., etc. And they are right to do so — it’s a matter of mental health.
I guess what I’m saying badly is: The next time any one of you find yourselves getting emotionally out-of-control in front of your personal computer, get up and walk away for an hour or two. Don’t give up on an on-line community just because you lost perspective in a heated moment. It will pass.
And for goodness sake, don’t write a Good-bye Diary that opens up yet another one of these threads about how we’ve failed to build unity or be supportive of each other or need to ban someone or don’t really know each other… all the finite variations on this theme. It’s so damned tedious navel-gazing at what’s wrong instead of moving forward with what’s right.
What a great comment. If you’re swearing at your computer screen you are overly involved and should walk away.
One more thing I will say is that I don’t like this perception that Booman Tribune is this kind of peace, love and smooches utopia. It squelches good discussion when people are afraid to post comments because they don’t want to disagree with someone they like. It seems like we should all be mature enough to disagree with respect and to know when to say when.
It’s that “Don’t be a prick” Rule. Sometimes the only comment I want to give someone is “Bullshit” so I don’t say anything at all. LOL!
Seriously, I totally agree with your “smooches utopia” insight. We can’t let the desire for unity override our ideal of diversity.
“Tell Us About You” diaries
Yes, and Diane has a tone of good-will in everything she writes.
And yet in his vigorous defense of Soj, BooMan said he didn’t care who the posters were, if they were 12 year olds in basements, whatever, he only cared about content. This was in direct conflict with the ‘community’ aspect, with the ‘welcome wagons,’ ‘tell us about you’ and the cafes. I point this out as another conflict. They never get resolved if they are never put on the table.
In the ‘real’ world, communities consist of outgoing, brave people as well as shy, retiring people. And everything in between and outside that description, too. Community does not necessarily mean that we know all about someone who is a member of our community. Community is based on respect for the individual’s right to have their own opinion, and to reveal or not reveal as much of themselves as they want to. It is true that we brush a bit closer to reality here when we know more about the person who is typing the words, but the absence of such knowledge does not prevent this place from being a community of ideas, of respect, and of learning.
The value of knowing who is writing a comment does not improve or negate the value of their commentary, however I do not disagree that the more I know about someone’s ‘real’ life, the more comfortable I am in sharing my ideas with them. The value of the “Welcome Wagon” and such is high, but we must not discount the voices of those who wish to remain anonymous merely because they feel they must. Some might fear losing their job because they work for a right-wing nutcase of a boss, or for a company that would rather they not speak liberally, for example. Anonymity does not destroy community, but it does make it more challenging.
imho.
That’s an example of how things can be misinterpreted.
In saying that I didn’t care whether Soj is a man or a woman, or 12 or 40, I certainly did not mean that I don’t care about those details in the people that choose to reveal them.
Part of what makes this site what it is is the amount of candor and and sharing there is between members about their personal lives, families, accomplishments, problems, etc.
But everyone has the right to anonymity, and everyone deserves to be free from harassment. There is a cottage industry in harrassing Soj and I’m sick of it.
That in no way means I don’t care about members and members’ real lives.
I don’t agree that all communities are fragile.
Communities, ecosystems, and the human body are not fragile…. there is more an impulse towards health and wholeness than towards falling apart… there is more a direction towards moving together, growing together than going off in a lone direction, growing apart.
When disagreements arise there is a way to take the discussion away to a “private place” and that is emails to make clear what was badly put, offensive or upsetting.
SusanHu was the reason I came here, as a matter of fact. Her contribution is what’s missing here in the community and on the front page. She left for a while, and was disconnected from her emails…. she is greatly, deeply missed by me.
I wish her courage, health, strength, happiness, and prosperity….. and I wish her back here as soon as she is able.
By me too. Hopefully someday she will return.
So do I!
You are the enemy of my enemy..so are you my friend of my enemy?
One of the main problems is that you all are just too damn smart and proficient at writing.
There are a lot of people that I look up to here an awful lot because of those reasons, but then I will occasionally see something that they say that I think is kind of offensive (or maybe even very offensive).
And the fact that it comes from someone that I do deeply respect makes it hurt all the more.
But then I have to remind myself that, like me, nobody that writes here is perfect. We are all still learning. And we can learn best from each other if we can understand and accept that we don’t know it all, and that other people can be hurt by things we might not even give a second thought.
So when these conflicts do come up, I think it’s important to take a step back and figure out why it happened in the first place. And nobody should be so proud as to think that they’re always in the right. I don’t know if there’s anything I respect more than someone who can admit that they’re wrong and that they’ve learned something from it.
Thanks for your diary Steven D.
Imho, I think that the answer for all of us who wish to remain as members of any community is to remember to argue passionately, yet dis-passionately. When you decide to become the words on your screen or the words that come out of your mouth, you are not in a position to take no offense at the introduction of a radically different idea or an insult in response to your words. If you decide that you are not becoming the words on your screen, but your words are self-recognizedly flawed representational symbols of who you really are, you can maintain a passionate, yet dis-passionate discourse.
My ideas and feelings are never completely and accurately represented by the words I choose to type into this machine for display to you all. I am something more than that. For me, it is important to pre-suppose this when I venture to record an idea here or to engage in arguing a point. Likewise, I pre-suppose that the same is true of you all. In this way, I can maintain my composure (more often than not, hopefully).
I have been a number of any number of online communities. They were like family to me, and I hung out with them, I spent my spare time corresponding with them, we laughed at each others’ foibles, we cried at each other’s tragedies, and we cheered at each other’s successes.
Now let me tell you why I left those communities.
In one sentence, they grew toxic.
Eventually, they got to the point where I couldn’t stand the atmosphere in what had been a fun, interesting and gracious community. There was trolling. There were hard feeling over misunderstandings. There was anger and pain.
If I want anger and pain in my life, I’ll stay offline.
This is something I hope never happens to BT, but maybe it’s inevitable. Communities change. One always hope change is for the better, but that’s not always the way it works out. I guess this is just to let everybody know that someday BT could become toxic, and if and when it does, here is how you will know: I will not be here. One day I won’t have posted any comments for a few days, and people will wonder where I went, and wasn’t he that guy who posted the stories and did the Robo-rater and never offended anyone on purpose who wasn’t running the country into the ground?
I don’t do Goodbye Cruel World. I just go.
I have to wonder if that’s what happened to SusanHu. Whatever it was, I hope it can be cleared up so she can come back. Her posts were one of the best things about the first year of this site. I would like to see more of them.
If posters come on this forum with agendas that are offensive and disruptive, but aren’t obvious trolls, then we have the option of ignoring them. Troll ratings are for obvious abusers, and I really enjoy the success of Booman Tribune as a user moderated forum. The only reason someone with a hostile agenda would persist in this forum is if they are getting attention. Don’t pay any attention to them and they will go away.
Steven, as usual, another good diary that echoes a lot of what I’ve said in various comments on the occasions of people saying sayonara to us.
I see a lot of the people commenting to your diary that are the very people I love to read, whose perspectives I respect to either offset or reinforce my own. If we come here to be educated and illuminated and even entertained we will be greatly enhanced and happy. If we are seeking here a replacement for real relationships, we’ll never be fulfilled. Here we can share some very real, happy and/or troubling experiences and a whole bunch of opinions that run the gamut from idiotic to insightful. All of that is great. But we won’t find love here, not even real understanding. But if we come here with the right expectations, to listen to others and to make ourselves heard in a safe environment, then the Frog Pond is heaven.
I disagree that we won’t find love here. I am proof of that. There are people here whom I’ve never met(yet) that I can honestly and without hesitation say that I love. There are also people that I have met and plan to meet again, that I can assure you that I love with all my heart. If I were to make a list of all of these people who have grabbed a piece of my heart, then I would run this thread right off the screen ;o)
For my part, I’m willing, maybe more than most, to express myself here in more personal ways. I’m also comfortable revealing much about my real self. Others are not. And there are many different levels of interaction in between. All of that is fine. To each his/her own.
But I am deeply in love with many people here…….
Somehow certain posters come to draw you to them by what they post-consistent ideals with their humanness even frailties shining through. I don’t think it can be helped that we come to feel closer to certain posters than others but that doesn’t mean that I don’t like to hear comments I maybe don’t agree with for those are the ones that will really make me think. And of course if we aren’t thinking we may as well be a vegetable.
And if I haven’t mentioned it before I’ll post it again…when I see ‘supersoling’-I always just think ‘superman’.
I miss you too, by the way, over at Eurotrib. Won’t you drop by now and then? π
hi Sirocco..that’s flattering, thank you..and yes I was just thinking and hanging my head in shame that it has been so long since I’ve been over to Eurotrib. I know I didn’t post a lot(mostly due to my ignorance of issues over there) but the viewpoint on that side of the pond is very enlightening, interesting …so ok I’ll try-ok not try I will get over there to see what you all are talking about. You might not see any posting right away, I’ll have to kinda catch up a bit but I’ll be there.
Don’t worry, the energy & political economics stuff there intimidates me too half the time — and I have a dad in the oil business and a degree in political science, plus top grades in economics from high school, etc… But there are threads about lighter matters too. Hope to see you ’round then, at your leisure!
Besides, where else can you write an article blasting a pipeline project in the Republic of Chad, only to find that the site editor was involved in the bloody financing? That’s a first for me!
I know what you mean about meeting people face to face and how good it is.
It’s one of the reasons I organized the meetup in Harpers Ferry last year and am organizing an event this year in Baltimore.
Also, count me in among those who miss SusanHu.
I come here for knowledge, interaction as this medium alllows it and to post my own diaries. Although I haven’t yet established the relationships that I would have liked, I find my other needs have been more than met. Conflicts will arise as they do in any human organization. Mostly I have stayed out of them, there is enough stress in the remainder of my life. I just hope that others would not withdraw from this community when conflicts arise but I suppose that for some it is inevitable. Peace to all.
Amen, Amen, and Amen. When I had read this diary earlier, I decided not to comment on it because the initial comments seemed so “insider-y”; but I decided to add my $.02 this evening. Humility is the most important virtue in using this medium, because it is our best medicine when we are hurt in this medium. Humility means that I know in my core that I am no better and no worse than anybody else. The only thing I take personally in life anymore, in this medium, or in the reality-based community, is love.
Thanks Steven D
Your diary did a round trip back to what I enjoyed about the whole diary.
I almost stopped reading the comments when it seemed to devolve.
Also, everyone, “Please have a nice week.”.
Regarding people who leave places like this because they are somehow affronted by other’s’opinions and/or their method of expressing those opinions…
I am sorry to say that if you cannot stand the heat in this mildly warm little kitchen, the real world is going to simply blow you AWAY!!!!
Those who directly confront this administration on any sort of effective level receive not only unprecedented portions of sheer calumny…witness Howard Dean and Cindy Sheehan among many others…but risk real ruin in the world.
You think someone like ductapefatwah is hard on you?
Wait’ll they sic the IRS or Motherland Security on your ass!!!
I just posted a couple of diaries on My Left Wing regarding just this problem over the weekend. I will post them here as well.
Or…go there and read them AND the comments they engendered.
Community? From a jazz musician’s point of view.
Respect? Or resistance.
If we are going to win this war for survival…and that is EXACTLY what it is…then we are going to have to be as tough as our opponents.
No, make that tougher than our opponents.
Who are some mighty rough customers. Believe it.
When people “retire” from this battleground because it got too rough…well, all’s I can say is:
Good thing they don’t have to deal with REAL trouble.
Later…
AG
It was fantastic to meet you Steven. Knowing what you and your family had to do to get there… made a huge impression on my “journey”.
Diveristy without division.
I’m here to learn, to love and to.. laugh, but most importantly I’m here to stop the killing and bloodshed and the only way I can learn how and get the tools and info I can is to read and to share and to ask – here. You guys inspire me, but you also protect me by educating me. None of us know it all and none of us see things exactly the same way. That’s the uniqueness of liberal/dems. We’re free to think and live. π
Haven’t been around much due to the fact it’s been hella busy on the peace front AND… it’s Stanley Cup playoff time. Trying to stop a war AND get my hockey fix is making my head spin π
I love you Steven. I love all the new friends and family I have met here and hope to meet here in the future.
XOXOXOX…. damnit.
I don’t think I heard Tracy swear the entire weekend. π