Riverbend is ok, thank God! She has posted today and it had to be this afternoon for I check in on her site at least3 6 times a day to see if she is still posting. Please read what she wrote..It will have an impact on you, I am very sure.
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oh dear. Her words regarding the rapes…
I, too, want our troops out of Iraq.
I would be, too, if it were my country that had been occupied and my people oppressed and abused. But I can’t go along with what Riverbend wrote here:
I know Riverbend is just ranting there, but there’s no way I can endorse that sentiment. We can’t demand due legal process for the prisoners in Bush-run gulags like Guantanamo and not demand it for everybody.
I could write more about what it’s like to be a member of an occupying army–since I was in Kuwait and Iraq the first time, but not like this…it was never like this–but it’s just too painful for me to re-visit.
Jesus, what some of our troops are doing in our name. The Iraqis will never forgive us. Never.
Poor Riverbend, having to stand by and witness the destruction of her country. It’s not “sectarian violence”, it’s civil war.
And I DO endorse this sentiment:
Unfortunately, by the time we do withdraw our troops, the damage will have been done. I don’t think Iraq can remain one nation after what’s happened between Sunni, Shiite, and Kurd. And I begin to wonder if maybe the partitioning of Iraq due to this “sectarian violence” isn’t what the neocon sons of bitches who planned this obscenity had in mind from Day One.
Our troops are cooked but we are still there. These soldiers….many have over two years in a war zone where there is no “rear” to go recoup and renew in. When I was at the Clearwater Festival I spent about an hour with Veterans for Peace, the Vietnam Vet running the booth talked to me about his PTSD. Like my Uncle he did recon for the Marines in Vietnam. He spoke clearly about being in the field for 10 days, not bathing, not having 10 days of food and eating things that the jungle provided towards the end of those days, he talked about living like an animal for 10 days and then when it was over they went to the rear for awhile to attempt to recover. His eyes were completely haunted when he asked me if I realized that there is no rear in Iraq to feel safe in and recoup in? If we thought the PTSD from Vietnam was bad we haven’t seen anything yet! We are really going to find out just how horrible and devastating and completely destructive PTSD can be for soldiers and people who get in the way……..our soldiers from Iraq are bringing home a whole new level of PTSD for us all to witness. Just my opinion but we haven’t seen anything yet…….soldiers slamming themselves into the doors of cockpits on planes in the air…….kiddy play!
dividing the country up in 3 separate states……I remember at the very beginning of this war that this option was discussed and put aside. I think Biden has said that is what he would do.
I do not know if this would be best or not. I still see that there would be fighting and battle going on as long as there is oil involved. Besides we would have to leave altogether for this to be suitable. I just don’t know.
I am so glad to have this out in the open so we can discuss things such as this. Thank you for your comment and service to our country. Welcome home.
Splitting up a unified state into different regions didn’t “work” for the former Yugoslavia. It didn’t work for India/Pakistan/Bangladesh. It won’t work for Iraq.
I know how the neocons think:
Invade Iraq. If US soldiers can actually pacify the country, the neocons “win”. If US soldiers can’t pacify the country, the neocons “win” because they use the continuing violence as an excuse to keep the troops in country.
If it becomes necessary to break up Iraq into three parts along ethnic lines, it’s another “win” for the neocon strategy because those three ethnic states will fight amongst each other. A weak and divided Iraq is what the neocons want…as long as there’s trouble on the Arabian Peninsula, it strengthens their hand. “We need an aggressive foreign policy”; “we need to keep pouring hundreds of billions into the military”; and so forth.
Honestly, I don’t see how Iraq can remain a unified state, unless Bush decides to set Saddam free and put him back in charge.
about not handing troops over to local people, MWAC.
For me, the significance of her statement is that it shows the degree of hopelessness or exasperation that this well-educated and articulate young Iraqi woman has reached. Is it any wonder then that militias of Iraqi men – perhaps inspired by religious or ethnic rivalries – are roaming the streets and killing more or less at random? And it is no wonder at all that others (‘insurgents’!) are actively trying to drive the US out.
I know, that’s why I didn’t rip into Riverbend for appearing to advocate mob retaliation. How many New Yorkers would have liked to beat Osama bin Laden to death with tire irons on 12 September 2001? But if we ever put the cuffs on him, I’d want to see him get a fair trial. And if the prosecutors couldn’t prove the case against him, we’d have to set him free. That’s the way a civilized society works. Hell, even the Nazi war criminals got a trial…Milosevic got a trial.
Sorry – didn’t mean to suggest you thought harshly about Riverbend. I was trying to make rhetorical points… 😉 I often forget that words on the screen come across differently to the way you’d hear me speak them… need to do better mental preview in addition to pressing the ‘preview’ button!
Forgive me, I must be in the minority here, but why shouldn’t american troops be tried by the community which housed the girls they raped and murdered in cold blood?
I agree that Gitmo is not justice for the men and boys held there and they should be tried at home, but they did not brutally attack, rape and kill innocent americans. If they did, they should be tried on American soil. Our troops know raping and slaughtering innocent people is wrong. They just think of it as a spoil of war or something they can get away with. We should not support them in this by discharging them with a tap on the wrist. They should face the community they hurt. They should have to face Iraqi law if we really believe that such exists. What they did was despicable and destroyed any last vestige of positive image we might have had.
My daughter went to a ball game the other day with her summer school program. One girl was really obnoxious and screamed at the players. My kid came home and said she learned that one kid can spoil the reputation of a whole school. If my 12 year old can understand that, then I would expect the U.S. government to undertand it too. In other words, so long as we coddle our criminals, we are spoiling our reputation as a nation of justice. Rape of women and murder of babies is just way too heinous to just pass it off as an internal matter.
thoughts too. Thanks for saying that which I was hesitant to write.
You’re not in the minority. My husband felt the same way.
Well, what Riverbend appears to be endorsing is tossing the soldiers into a mob and letting them be the subject of a revenge killing. That’s mob “justice” and it doesn’t fly with me and it shouldn’t fly with anybody who’s been insisting that Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld et al respect international and US law. We’re either for the rule of law for everybody or we’re for anarchy. You can’t be for the rule of law just some of the time.
On the other hand, if we could depend on the Iraqi government to give a fair trial to soldiers who have committed crimes against Iraqi civilians, I’d have no problem with that. But the Iraqi government is dysfunctional, corrupt, and many of its officials are collaborators with Bush/Cheney crowd. But the idea of American soldiers getting a fair trial in Iraq the way things are run now is just a sad joke.
Unfortunately, the United States did not sign the treaty that makes our soldiers subject to a war crimes tribunal in the ICC (International Criminal Court), so the only option is a court martial, which is what is happening for soldiers whose crimes have been brought to light. Unfortunately, I’m guessing there are a LOT more soldiers who are committing crimes than the ones we have heard about.
What we are seeing in Iraq is the breakdown of command structures, where officers no longer have control of their soldiers. It’s frightening, because the same thing happened in Vietnam. Officers become afraid of their own troops; “fragging” was not uncommon in Nam and I know that there are quite a few officers in Iraq who are afraid of the same thing happening to them.
Combat situations are always hairy because if anybody in the ranks has got a grudge against you, it’s not terribly difficult to arrange a stray bullet in the back…”friendly fire” incident. “Hey, I didn’t mean to shoot Captain ___, I was returning fire!”
The Iraqi and American people are going to be dealing with the raw wounds of this damnable war for a long time to come. It won’t be over in our lifetimes and maybe not in our children’s lifetimes.
As far as PTSD goes, prolonged exposure to combat conditions make it more likely that individuals will suffer from it, but all it really takes is one traumatic incident, and what soldier or civilian in Iraq hasn’t had one of those? It’s not only American soldiers who are going to have PTSD, but Iraqi civilians–think of all the little kids especially, who have seen people shot or blown up, seen charred corpses, seen their relatives killed in front of their eyes.
Basically, it’s too late to save anybody, though. Everybody in Iraq who’s going to suffer a PTSD or combat stress reaction has already experienced the horror or horrors that are going to trigger it. All we can think about now is managing the damage to human souls…and think of a way that we can somehow, someday, make partial restitution to the Iraqi people for what what was done to them in our name, with our tax dollars.
Since when does the US give a fair trial here? I don’t see the commanders like Rumsfeld in jail for Abu Graib or Gitmo and even the low level collaborators are getting little more than a reprimand if they can pin it on a private.
Is the Iraqi government a legitimate legal entity or not? We claim they are, but we refuse to accept their law.
“Unfortunately, the United States did not sign the treaty that makes our soldiers subject to a war crimes tribunal in the ICC (International Criminal Court), so the only option is a court martial, which is what is happening for soldiers whose crimes have been brought to light. Unfortunately, I’m guessing there are a LOT more soldiers who are committing crimes than the ones we have heard about.”
So, a court martial is all these people will face. What message does that send the raped girl’s family? What does that say about the US? What it says is we don’t really care about our guys raping your girls and killing your children.
As for the rest, it is excuses. Please don’t get me wrong, I do understand. I just also understand why someone like Riverbed would call for justice. This is why I am more and more against any military action except for extreme circumstances that have the full and unequivocal UN support.
“A court martial is all these people will face”…I don’t think you understand what “court martial” means.
It doesn’t mean that the soldier just loses rank and pay and is dishonorably discharged. Penalties from a court martial include lengthy prison sentences (and it’s hard time in places like Leavenworth, which gave me chills the one time I visited it) and yes, even the death penalty.
The fact that Rumsfeld, for example, is not on trial doesn’t mean that soldiers won’t get a “fair trial”. By a “fair trial” I mean the soldier has an attorney, the right to subpoena witnesses, evidence, etcetera, to defend himself and the verdict and sentence are not foregone conclusions.
As far as the “sovereign government” of Iraq putting people on trial–well, do you really believe Iraq’s government is “sovereign”? Don’t tell me what it should be, tell me what it is.
I haven’t made excuses for anybody that I can see. Soldiers suffering from PTSD are still capable of being judged guilty for any crimes they committed; they’re not legally insane and are fully capable of knowing right from wrong. PTSD may be a mitigating factor in some cases (for example, there was a soldier in my company who was diagnosed with PTSD and got a lighter sentence after assaulting another soldier) but it is not an excuse.
You know, more and more I see that US military action is counterproductive to our national interests. Somebody, please, tell me what good came out of the blood spilled and treasure spent on Vietnam or Iraq. No good whatsoever–it’s 100% bad, through and through. The only good the US did was to get rid of Saddam, but what the Iraqi people have in the post-Saddam era is just as bad–hell, maybe worse.
If the US invasion and occupation of Iraq doesn’t serve our national interest, then whose interest does it serve? Well, ever since the US invaded Iraq, gas prices have gone sky-high. Who benefits from that?
Hm, Bush’s and Cheney’s buddies in the oil business? Including their own families?
Bush’s and Cheney’s buddies in the Middle East, like the Saudis and Kuwaitis?
Naw, must be a coincidence.
Glad to hear Riverbend is alive, brings to mind my friend Diva who I hope is still alive as well. She is due to leave Bahgdad Thurs or Friday of this week to come to America. Last word was about 2 weeks ago, I cringe everyday when I hear of the most recent bombings.
who maybe, just maybe has a chance to sit this one out if she can just get out of there on Thursday or Friday. If God has anything to grant me, it would be nice if he would grant me that, that Diva gets here.
Well you and me both, I wait in anxious anticipation of getting the first phone call from her here on this soil and when we can have a decent conversation for the first time in a long time.
The trip to the airport is the one I fear the most and hopefully they won’t have to meet in plain view for traveling and thus be marked…I am sure the ‘maurading men’ will not like them going to the US…
You and me three..
I brace myself every morning when I check my email. I worry that I’ll get an email about Eman who has returned to Baghdad to be with her two daughters.
Me four…..
DJ, you will let us know when you do hear, won’t you???
Diane, please let us know about this progress and let us know when she arrives here for us to take a deep breath and rejoice in her arrival.
Two have heard from her… she has very limited access to the computer and electricty now.
NO I have not. I tried communication early on but did not make any progress to this. I just watch for her dispatches to come. I wish I could contact her personally. She was one of the first I started to read back in 03 I think it was. I have slacked off on some of her dispatches but for the most part, I stay ready for more from her. I find her writings a lot like some of what the nurses wrote in VN, to back home.[in comparison] They have changed greatly as time has gone on, for the most part.
You know DJ, I actually think you might have meant that comment to be for Diane, once I started to think about it…;o)
My mistake perhaps, I meant that two of my friends have heard from Eman.
Ya’ll, I have been so very worried about her and her family as of late….
Each day that went by without any communication was like torture for me. I checked sometimes 6 times a day thinking any time now she would post something. Boy did I really have a great afternoon finding this and reading it…not good news but some news anyhow and she seems to collaborate the news coming out of Iraq.
Just clicked on my computer this morning and there were a couple of instant messages from Diva, so she’s still alive and leaving on Sunday to come here. Good news too, her Mom is going to live in Syria, so she will be out of there also and less worrisome to Diva.
Anyway, I just wanted to share that with all of you.
I only got about 6 lines of messages so I don’t know much more than that.
The point where I broke down and cried was when she wrote about opening the emails her friend had sent before he was killed. He sent her jokes and cat pictures.
What if all of us had to worry every miserable day about which of the friends with whom we exchange jokes and cat pictures will be the next to die a brutal death?
Today, I’m going to find the local CodePink chapter and join. Whatever they’re doing in the Denver area, I’ll be part of it.