Everyone should check out pastordan’s interview with Barack Obama.
You should also look at Robert Novak’s explanation of his role in Plamegate and Marcy Wheeler’s take on it. My take? Marcy needs more time to ruminate. Novak’s column doesn’t illuminate much, but it does support the supposition that his source was Richard Armitage and Armitage’s role was inadvertent.
I’ll never understand why a whole community can be characterized by the actions or comments of one or two members. I can’t tell you how often I get emails from people pointing to a comment and saying “since your community has now become this, I can no longer be a member.” Except, usually, they remain members. I’m sorry we don’t all agree all the time. Actually, that’s a lie. I’m not sorry. Allowing a broader area of debate has its consequences. Hurt feelings come with the territory.
If you missed it, Harold Meyerson’s column in the Washington Post is refreshing. It’s good to see an insider that understands us outsiders and has some self-consciousness.
Also, you may be asking your yourself why the terrorists hate Indiana. I have no good answer for you. But it does call to mind a really bad song.
What’s on your mind this morning?
It always amazes me how oblivious ‘folks’ are to others perspective. It would seem that that their is only one thing which is of any importance whatsoever to most Americans….
Themselves.
Sounds like Obama is not a big fan of framing. 😉
yeah. I noticed that. I hope Janet Strange will forgive him 🙂
While he did an excellent job, there is one question I would have liked to see asked:
So what do you want from the secularists?
I’ve come to the conclusion that discord appears to be the human norm and anything beyond that is a gift. As for myself I realized recently that I actually like some drama (and am unfortunately good at creating it), love gossip and am drawn to eccentric people, some of them VERY eccentric.
In response to Hezbollah attacks from Lebanon, Israel has sent tanks and troops across the border. The action is being justified in part because Hezbollah is part of the Lebanese government. I can’t see how this goes any way but very, very badly.
Oh, good. It’s 1982. Richard Perle must be pleased.
the return of the worst of 80s fashion was a bad idea.
Someone please invite Dove to post that diary over here. Dove includes my name in ther and I haven’t paosted one comment in the DTF dustup diary. The group over there had some pretty nasty things to say about folks here, behind their backs. Now that takes alot of courage.
Anyone who posted things there has been engaged here. I don’t agree with your name being included in that group, but then again, I don’t agree with a lot that I read here. It is all individual opinions. We can all take them or leave them.
coming from LSF which is bashed continuously by the Orange henchmen you just have to sit back and laugh, which we all do regularly!
This tempest too shall blow over. I like all the people involved some of the time and other times they irritate me. Such is life.
I think we both know a little about getting lumped in with other people and criticized for shit we didn’t even say. Hell, you’ve gone off half-cocked on me at least once, without me having a clue about what I did to warrant your wrath. I think the key is to not take anything too personally. I try, at least.
Sorry Super, I have to disagree with you here. I have not been participating much here as to keep my stress levels down due to my health scare in May. Most of my comments have been left in Iraq grief or other similar diaries. Until this week it has been minimal. To me, Dove is doing “harm” over there much as she is accusing people of here by throwing my name in where it has no place. Also, instead of confronting people here, she and others are talking behind those they accuse of wronging someone else. I am not siding with anyone here or saying anyone is justified in hateful speech. But crap man, have the courage to say what you say about someone to their face huh?
Like I said Leezy, everyone who is posting over there has posted here. I don’t see that as saying anything behind anyone’s back. And I also said that I don’t agree with your name being listed in the context of DT’s recent diaries here. That is a question that only Dove can answer.
either, as for talking behind my back personally though I’m okay. Lord knows it isn’t the first time that someone has done that and it won’t be the last.
I talk about you behind your back all the time. Glad to know that’s okay. 😉
I have zero problem with anyone who has an opinion about me, talking about that opinion in other places.
sue they can do whatever they please, as long as it is the truth. Lumping me in when I did not participate is a lie. Is that ok?
No it’s not okay if it’s a lie. Maybe Dove has an opinion about you beyond DT’s diaries. I don’t know. And I’ve already said twice now that I don’t agree with your name being included alright? But I can’t answer why your name is there. Only Dove can.
Well, I posted two comments there and have received no response. I am now backing away.
Knowing how infrequently comments are posted there, and the sometimes long interval between them, I’ll say that Dove not responding to you yet doesn’t mean that she won’t.
Even though I have not read most of the comments that have spurred this controversy, I was suprised to see you mentioned since I hadn’t noticed your participation around here lately. Of course, I always notice your absence.
Thanks Booman…what a nice thing to say.
I guess we’re just “impossible to injure”, eh?
Thanks, but I’m not that tough.
It’s on a public website and now linked to, I guess to keep all this fun going (WHOOHOO! Awesome plan!), on the FP of BooTrib. Whatever you think of the opinions expressed it is certainly not behind anyone’s back.
It’s an opinion on a personal blog, that’s what people do on their blogs.
Each person who commented there has commented here as well. And in fact, two of them were basically told to take a hike with their opinions, by some ‘upstanding’ community members here, so to complain about them talking over there now is a bit silly. In fact they are both owed an apology by a couple of people here for the shit that was spewed in their direction.
As far as why you’re mentioned leezy, I have no idea.
What’s on my mind this morning? The DCCC. They sent me a letter asking for support. I sent them two words in reply: Christine Cegelis.
They sent me back a reply saying that since Cegelis has endorsed Duckworth, all was well.
Here is my reply to that:
Hello:
It is very nice for you that Christine Cegelis has endorsed Tammy Duckworth. However, what you failed to understand when you recruited Duckworth and what you still fail to understand is that you exhibited a complete lack of respect for members of the grassroots and the emerging Democratic party in DuPage County — a party that what was emerging despite the complete lack of attention from the Democrats to that point.
What you also fail to understand is that many of us are more committed to principles than we are to party labels — something that Rahm Emanuel is clearly unfamiliar with. I will support progressive candidates. I will not send one dime to the DCCC.
I’m still waiting for CabinGirl to introduce her two cents campaign. Basically, it involves responding the requests for money from Schumer and Emanuel with two pennies taped to a diatribe about what assholes Schumer and Emanuel are, and a promise to spend your money more judiciously.
I was just thinking that I might have to carve out some time to do that today…
That’s a great idea, CG!
Don’t forget to use that nice postage-paid envelope they sent with their letter to mail yours back to them!
We’ll have to get creative and come up with an online equivalent.
I am utterly amazed by Alex’s ability to read the minds of and completely understand the motivations of an entire group of people based on a handful of comments read out of context. With such an astounding ability, why is he not working as an analyst for considerable sums of money? Or perhaps a psychic hotline operator? I’m sure he’d fit in perfectly in both positions.
(borrowing “stress threads” from another member because it works for me). Many people had nothing to do with any of that.
Bingo. A lot of us left DK because kos stepped in on the “wrong side”. Booman’s resolutely maintained neutrality, which was exactly the right thing to do. He deserves a lot of applause for that.
not one bit, but we do tend to hash out differences here that I consider important to the party platform and Iraq and the War and our Soldiers are on fire right this minute and changes like a twisting storm and I’m on this ride. Someone give me some Garth Brooks because I’m dancing in this fire and I really do feel very alive right now and sometimes my ass is getting singed. I can get upset and stop participating and then what …….nothing……nothing ventured and nothing gained and one more window and opportunity and one more avenue for the base to explore, make goals about, and resolve is closed! The gap between the progressives and their military stays a gap, my party can’t be trusted to protect the nation because they won’t even own a military….I just can’t go there so here I am.
I think owning a military is fine, not least of which because you guys keep Canada from having to have a large one. But I do like the Canadian concept of a military better – one that is trained (hell, we have the best snipers in the world bar none, so we do actually train our solidiers for combat), but as it’s primary mission keeping the peace. And not doing all the other shit the Pentagon (and CIA) does. Liberals can get behind that I’d think, we do up here in Canada and there’s no disconnect until the mission goes outside of the ‘peacekeeping’ business and into invasion or occupation. Then we start to debate.
Your military is better than my military now? Is that it?
Grow up. That’s not what I said at all.
I was trying to find common ground with you and provide a different perspective on how a military can function, but fuck it. It’s obviously not even worth trying. Enjoy your bias and hatred Tracy, it’s not for me.
Fucking where?
Of that you have fully demonstrated. We spend a whole lot more money than Canada ever dreamed of training our soldiers and by the way we train your too because some of them too at Fort Rucker Bawahahahah! My husband has spent half of his military career training and in different schools all over the country! The United States has spent about 4 million dollars just training him to fly three different airframes. It is nice though to have the best snipers in the world!
Like I said, try reading Tracy. I fucking acknowledged that. Man, you sure are on a mission to not pay attention to anything but your own preconceptions of how everyone is out to get you and hates Americans eh.
And yes, the troll rating I gave you is because you are being a total prick and I’ve fucking had enough.
an American people problem but a government problem don’t you understand. The liberals could get behind a certain kind of military????? This is their military and the hands of an idiot asshole. America’s military takes orders from and follows the rules of it’s commanders so don’t you think it is a command change thing here and maybe……just maybe not a military thing?
To attempt to inject some productivity here… Consider that it might also be an institutional problem? As an example of an alternative, consider Japan’s Self-Defense Force. I’m not from a military family, but it seems to have more built-in defense against abuses by the civilian leadership. Not in the least because its activities are explicitly restricted by the Japanese constitution.
Once again though it originated with the Bush Administration. The military is very much like a corporation in that the managers who do the bidding of the CEO’s get promoted, get to dictate and even create some policy……this is not Clinton’s military. They started weeding in the Pentagon, commanders who went to Iraq and acted like cowboys that first year in got big promotions and big desks with big chairs. It really is all in who the boss is. Now we will get rid of these schmucks but let’s see…..all of our top brass is pretty bloodthirsty now so there will be hand slapping from hell for about two years and probably “retirements” galore if a Dem takes office. Some of the “new rules” won’t be tossed until someone is hurt by them under new management….GREAT….and my favorite is that now we have a White Supremacist problem too which I can promise will grow. I have a headache now, but who is going to deal with this and not just bitch about it? Wes Clark could do it…….I see it now…..he would cruise every base and he would large sit downs with soldiers about how things are going to be from here on out and he has this uncanny ability to make where the line is toed abundantly clear. He knows every single place were the new rules need some redaction! I don’t like his Iraq policy right now but he really could straighten all this shit out in short order. We are going to have to have a military though so what is our goal as progressive democrats for doing this? Looking away from it all because we can’t bare the sight of the atrocities that have been committed by troops that are heading home to be committed isn’t going to cut it!
Try reading.
I was saying a military can be a GOOD thing for fucks sake Tracy. That liberals CAN and DO and WILL protect their country contrary to what you believe.
Perhaps you should stop spewing your fucking anger all over this site for a day eh? Might make this place a little nicer to be around. Re-read BooMan’s open thread — disagreement is welcome here… we don’t all have the same opinions. But fuck, you can’t even calm down enough and release some of your shit to see when someone was trying to tell you that a military can and is a good thing if it’s mission is correct. WTF is your problem?
My military is fucking fine, it is a fine thing…….it’s the leaders who are not fine, and I’m sick to death of your shit so piss off!
not some high minded ideas I dream up. Real life in a real world that is not always safe for people, not even if we want it to be, not even if we decide to nonviolent ourselves because that doesn’t mean other people will be……it only gives them the option to be! I am tired of you shitting on my life, what great sacrifice do you make every day for the safety of anybody other than yourself?
Seriously, fuck you.
You have no goddamn idea what goes on in my life or what I or my family has had to deal with because I don’t bring it onto the site.
Fuck you. How goddamn DARE you.
Because you do know what goes on in my life and it does not compute with you. So seriously, Fuck You Too!
your and Sally’s fucking bullshit hatred all over this site is poisonous. And I don’t need that shit in my life. Go back to your goddamn echo chamber and “safe place” where reality doesn’t intrude and sit on it. I’m done.
Good job alienating those who were on your side Tracy. Way to go.
I most definitely don’t need any fucking enemies because it’s going to take me all day just dodging bullets from my “friends”.
Americans and everybody is better than we are. I had hoped to not start the day this way.
Think for a second about how that sentence looks from the perspective of someone whose husband might well die to keep Canada from having a large military. Then run the rest of your comment through the same filter.
Now, if you really want to apologize, you might try posting a comment like this:
I said it exactly how I meant it. I don’t need your editing thanks.
Ah, I see. You meant for that to be offensive and inflammatory, then?
Your military is so small because you share a continent with the United States and you use our army for your own protection because we would allow anybody to invade another country we shared a damned continent with that we were on friendly terms with so bless take your “Canada specialness” and shove it. And we do train some of your soldiers and if Neocons took over your government believe me honey……they would send your soldiers to places you wouldn’t like and then you find out how far that “Debate” thing goes!
Duh Tracy, that was implied in the first sentence of my post.
“Canadian specialness” – what a joke you are.
After acknowledging that you barely have a military because you use the shitty American one, you go off on how your military is at least trained. Wow Spidey, a trained military force that really couldn’t protect shit if someone really mean shows up……you will use my “untrained” barbarians (do I have that right or what exactly are they compared to your trained military) and take the military moral high ground today. You are the reason why rednecks printed those fucking bumper stickers that say Freedom Isn’t Free! Just one more ignorant idealistic slogan countering one more ignorant idealistic thought process that could get a lot of people killed on our very own resources rich soil!
Hurt feelings come with the territory.
Since your the one that decided to go meta …
There’s a question that I’ve been pondering for the last couple of months through all the flame wars and hurt feelings. I still don’t have an answer that I find satisfactory, so I guess I’ll just throw it out and let people talk about it if they want to.
Some blogs, like this one, are intended to be community moderated. You’ve provided a rating system similar to dKos that’s meant to help the community moderate the conduct of its members.
HOWEVER, we the community have reached a general consensus that we don’t want to use that means of moderation. We have an antipathy to troll ratings.
So, what’s an alternative method of community moderation that would allow ALL members of the community (even the shy ones, even the non-confrontational ones) to participate in community moderation rather than feel that they have to leave?
I think many people will respond by saying that here at BT we use DISCUSSION. And I guess that’s true. And in general I think that’s a good thing.
But what I’ve been seeing over the last few months is a gradual increase in the use of abuse as the means of moderating the behaviour of people — not only people who may be verging on being pricks but people who have opinions that are in the minority here. And some of the people with minority opinions occasionally charge back with the same kind of language use — for which, in an act of ultimate irony IMO — they are often told in no uncertain terms that we don’t act that way here at BT.
By abusive langauge I don’t just mean name calling and virtual yelling. That’s easy to see, and not much of that goes on here.
But what I see more and more is a general belittling of the other person — not their point of view, but them personally. And usually in a passive aggressive way so that it can easily be denied that it’s a personal attack.
I’m NOT picking on any one person — in fact, the opposite. It just seems to be pervasive these last few months. I’ve found myself doing it and I don’t like it. I’m not sure what to do about it. Calling people on their behavious seems reasonable — but there’s so much of it going on that it seems overwhelming at times.
I’ve seen some people retreat to only the cafe and open threads and stop participating much in other threads. It seems as if a lot of people have left. I’ve been so busy in RL that my response lately has to simply leave for a couple of days at a time and come back when things calm down, but that’s not really an answer.
So I thought I’d throw it out there for discussion. Hopefully, non-flame discussion.
I don’t know about the belittling of people’s positions. I have gotten feedback from the ET crowd that we do not do ENOUGH of that. We tolerate any kind of rhetoric in the name of tolerence, and some of them see that as a bad thing.
I think the ratings should be reserved for actual prickish behavior and not for agreement or disagreement. But, I don’t see a problem with vigorously disagreeing with rhetoric or arguments you see as wrong or offensive. I constrain myself in a lot of cases because when I disagree it can come off as censurous. I don’t mean for that to be the case, but I recognize that I can have a chilling effect on debate if I weigh in on one side or the other.
You open a good debate. I’ll sit back and listen.
This is, come to think of it, a very good thing. It’s one aspect of the site you generally handle very well.
I don’t know about the belittling of people’s positions.
I said I was concerned with the belittling of people not their positions. Maybe there’s a fine line there, but I see a difference.
I see that I mischaracterized your point. My apoologies.
who the fuck gives a fuck?
im going to the city tonite for all you can eat crabs at the pour house….yippeeeeeee
Have a great time and a few for me
I always like your take on things. Have a good time.
Here.
Excerpt:
Anybody seen my new beachclub?
boran’s beachclub
After reading through all these threads, there is one thing that keeps popping into my head.
It’s the scene in Half Baked (hilarious movie) where Scarface quits his job at the restaurant. He just starts pointing at successive customers and says:
Fuck you.
Fuck you.
Fuck you.
You’re cool.
Fuck you.
I’m out.
Classic.
I’m reposting this comment, which I made in Simon’s history diary, because it may have been missed there.
And then I’m moving onto to the really important news of the day – like the fact that Israel and Lebanon may be at war and how truly fucked up the Middle East has now become where people are dying on a grand scale every day. Not to mention the fact that hundreds of Indians are dead and wounded due to terrorist attacks that many seem to think are just yesterday’s news already.
Those are the things that matter to me. This bullshit personal war on this blog is distracting attention away from the realities in the world. Why? Because someone has an ego and needs to defend it at all costs? How does that help the victims in India or the Iraqis that were rounded up and killed today? And, what about your neighbour who may be down on his luck with kids that can’t even eat properly today? How does all of this anger help them? And how does it help anyone to alienate people who are on your side who want to work on these serious issues? And what about lurkers and people who have just visited here for the first time today, hoping to find a site with people who are just as sick and tired of Bushco as you all are? This is their welcome – their indoctrination to this site?
Get a grip.
Now, having said that, here’s what I wrote to Tracy in that diary:
I need to write this even though I suspect that because it’s coming from me and that it will, no doubt, be rejected on that basis alone by you, it might be a waste of words. Perhaps someone else will be helped by it though.
You’re proud of your husband and his sacrifice. No one is trying to take that away from you.
The fact that he chooses to put himself in harm’s way each day must cause an incredible mix of emotions for you. No one doubts that and most here cannot claim to be in your position or to fully understand the anxiety and pain that must cause. That’s very true.
Many here have given you continued support as you deal with your circumstances. That is as it should be.
Now, here is where the departure occurs: the facts behind your personal circumstances do not give you the right to be so blatantly angry and trollish (yes, trollish – because you would not get away with some of what you’ve written here if people didn’t know you; troll behaviour = calling someone “pathetically fucking stupid” along with some other screeds lately).
In my opinion, you are taking advantage (whether you’re concious of doing so or not) of the goodwill the people on this blog have extended to you by refusing to back off when necessary and by sticking people in “less-than” categories because they, unlike your husband, are not in Iraq under threat of death every day. Thus, your logic goes, they cannot be critical of the mission or your country. But, it’s all right for you to do so because you come from a special place of superiority due to your personal circumstances.
Your pain about your situation is very, very real and your attitude is somewhat understandable. No one here can fix that pain, however. And if I were a person in such pain, I might well avoid adding to it by exposing myself to opinions that would only make it worse. That’s not what you choose to do. You choose to face it head on and that is admirable at times, even though it can be psychically risky. As one who has PTSD, I have some experience with that reality and the need to define clear boundaries so I don’t continually harm my psyche by rewounding it.
So, I would ask you to consider why you would choose this outlet – which has been one mainly of support – to box yourself into a very uncomfortable corner from which more people are now distancing themselves from you at a time when you need them.
I don’t hang around on right-wing blogs every day just so I can feel justified in my anger that would surface continually by doing so. I don’t keep friends in my life who would abuse me. I don’t believe in torturing myself in order to prove my martyr status so others will feel sympathy for me.
When I see womething written that I disagree with – even strongly – I respond with facts or a clear statement of my contrary opinion or logic. I temper my emotions – which is damn difficult to do around issues of torture and abuse, so I don’t feel overwhelmed or end up destroying myself. It’s a balancing act. I don’t buy into rage for the sake of rage which I have no energy for anyway and I do believe that compassion is not a vice. Nor is an attempt to truly understand people a weakness.
What I’ve seen coming from you lately Tracy is a cry for help. You may disagree and I could be way off base. But, please, if it’s help and support you need – just ask plainly. The people here who care about you will give it. Alienating those who would will only leave you in a place of tremendous loneliness. This is all just sad. It really is.
Your zero rating of my post, SallyCat, speaks volumes.
I agree. When someone is in what they describe as lurking mode, it’s not cool to give out troll ratings. Spiderleaf was the first one to give a troll rating to one of Tracy’s comments, and I wish she hadn’t, but at least she was participating at the time.
The fundamental issue here is that a lot of people said they were insulted and offended by a certain diary. (Said diary was, in my opinion, extremely offensive) They were then told that they shouldn’t be insulted, that they were being oversensitive, or, worse, were insulted because they’d been offended. They then, understandably, responded by flaming back, and got blamed for starting the whole mess.
The bit I have a problem with is people being told they shouldn’t be offended by something. That’s just all kinds of insulting, and is blaming the victim to boot.
I’m quite aware that some stuff I write is offensive. I generally try to express my reasons for being offensive instead of simply telling people “You’re wrong, that’s not offensive”.
Reflect on this for a second. Or don’t, I don’t give a damn, since you’ve already decided where “right” and “wrong” lies.
Whatever happened to discussing the issues raised and not the actual people who raised them? That has been the problem here. Do you know what it’s like to post something here and be summarily attacked just because of who someone thinks you are or have done? I do and, believe me, that type of behaviour does absolutely nothing to further the discussion of ideas. If I want to be subject to that, I’ll hang out at right-wing blogs where I can be demonized for being an evil liberal, no matter what I say. Post something at RedState and get banned immediatley just because you’re a member of the left-wing. You’ll understand what I mean.
And, while I expect that on many of those right-wing sites, I certainly don’t expect it on so-called progressive ones. But, maybe that’s my problem: my expectations. I’ve obviously erred in believing that left-wingers prefer rational discussion to hateful invective. The majority here do prefer rationality, so is it wrong of me to aim at those whose mission it seems to me is destruction? I actually care about this site and its mission.
So, if believing in rationality is “right”, I’ll cop to that. And, if believing that personal insults are “wrong” is attributed to me, I’ll cop to that too. Further, if discussions of facts and opinions on issues is being shouted down for whatever reasons, it seems to me that the whole community suffers and through all of this, it has. Call me a commie, I believe that the good of the community and that the mission of the site is more important than the personalities involved.
If there were actually any issues raised, that would indeed have been the correct course of action.
I saw this last night and it was along the same lines I was thinking which is why I tried to find common ground with Tracy yesterday and today while not countenancing the hateful rhetoric.
But this thread is my last straw. I will not be called names, have my integrity and belief systems denegrated and have lies spread about what I have written. I cannot allow people who I have come to respect deeply be labeled as unpatriotic, hateful and anti-american. I would not accept this from the right, and I will not accept it from the so-called left.
And the part that bothers me the most is that we are all letting it happen. Right in front of our eyes.
On the drive back from Long Island, while we were in PA, we drove past a sign for an Indian Nation. Spraypainted next to it was the following: “Home of traitors, rapists and murderers”. That is how I feel on labeled now. And I can’t deal with it anymore.
Tracy, Sally, Egarwaen, whomever, you win. I’m done. Call me what you will, believe what you will, but I know what is in my heart. And it’s obviously not showing to anyone here.
Tracy, I am sorry I trollrated you, but you were acting like a troll and my emotions got the better of me. I would take it back if I could, but I can’t “unrate” a comment. Perhaps Boo can if he wishes.
See you all around.
I’ve called you nothing.
Selective reading/ interpreting on display again.
I said “I tried to engage Tracy and that this thread was the last straw” and then detailed how I was being treated. As I’ve only interacted with Tracy in this thread and said I was talking about her, I have no clue why you would think I was talking about you.
I was talking about you when I mentioned you by name as part of the group who has been seriously mistreating the site, but that’s it.
Bye.
It’s mistreating the site to confront people who post deliberately offensive and insulting content?
Jesus fucking Buddha. We’ve been through this for the last however many days. We all have different opinions of what was or was not said or implied. Do we have to keep fighting this battle with every single post and diary and person?
That is what I am talking about when I say ‘mistreating the site’. Thread after thread. Day after day. Poster after poster.
Enough.
I am done. I’m not arguing anymore. I’ve said what I wanted to, I am leaving and going to drink a Keith’s on the porch and enjoy the after rain fresh air in Toronto.
Ah. “No fair hitting back!” Got it. I apologize for objecting to misinformation, mischaracterization, insults, and attempts to smear or bait other posters. In the future, I will allow this to pass unnoticed. I might even give it ‘4’ ratings!
Some good came out of it. The dude did give me some free publicity. 😉
And thanks for the troll rating.
Please, wrack ’em up.
I’ve zero-rated this post because I’m sick and tired of people putting words in my mouth to try and discredit my points. I’ve not insulted spiderleaf, nor called him/her names. Apparently my only crime was pointing out that the wording of one of his/her posts could easily be construed as insulting.
If any can produce a link to a single post in the past week where I’ve insulted spiderleaf specifically, I’ll change that to a four.
But maybe Canadians just can’t be reasoned with, eh?
when did this site become middle school?
Where is all this anger coming from? Is it really all related back to Ductape’s diary about the unreasonableness of Americans?
How did Canada get involved?
Is it 2009 yet?
We were sent in on an unsuccessful UN peacekeeping mission.
I think this was been a big to do about very little.
Correct me if I am wrong.
I’m not gonna correct you at all, I agree.
I just can’t abide the hateful rhetoric against members of this site. It pains me to see people I adore being painted as anti-american or unpatriotic. Me personally, hell, call me what you want, just don’t distort what I write. Other than that I agree to agree and/ or disagree… really would like all this shit to stop though. I wanna talk about blues, Long Island, beer, pandas, Gore, how amazingly beautiful NY, NJ, and PA are and the Leafs prospects for the Cup next year.
There’s always room for the blues.
On another note: I suppose it’s a mixed blessing that unlike with good old-fashioned usenet groups, one can’t killfile those one finds a need to not interact with. Sometimes the best we can do is accept that some of us simply will clash, and that it’s best to simply stay away from one another.
I can’t stand the hateful rhetoric that’s been flying back and forth either. And then eventually both sides engage in the same things they’re complaining about.
Anyway…who was your favorite band from the Blues Fest? And what part of PA did you like? 🙂
The BooTrib swing left blues band… we made beautiful music together. 🙂
I am so sorry we missed that. Freakin’ poison ivy!
Me too!! Boooooo….. 😉 hissss…
But it was awesome chattin’ with ya darlin’… and there will definitely be a next time… in PERSON 🙂
In terms of PA, we only did the trip up towards the Del Water Gap and the Poconos which was amazingly beautiful. It’s so cool how the terrain slightly changes from NY to NJ to PA back to NY and up into Canada. Our Muskokas are similar but different to the Adirondacks, and each are stunning. Driving through it really makes you appreciate an open world though… we all live off the same land and we are so alike in so many core ways the ‘border’ and ‘nation’ stuff just seems so irrelevant.
(love Philly too… GO BIRDS… but didn’t drive through there this time ;))
There was a point, about half-way along the I-90 in New York, where the countryside just exuded a positive and peaceful feeling. It really felt like a land where anything was possible if you put your mind to it.
I grew up near there in the Chenango Valley. The local Indians considered it a sacred site, where no man should build. Of course, us white folk didn’t listen. But upstate NY is beautiful country. I sometimes miss it, usually in the Spring and Fall.
I wanna talk about…the Leafs prospects for the Cup next year.
Talk’s about it … 😉
(You know I love ya babe.)
They SUCK!! We are so old its not even funny. Blech. I’m glad Quinn is gone.
(okay, done talking about our miserable prospects, love ya too!)
Is that truly the way you feel? Even though a number of posters were very offended by a diary that claimed they were sub-human monsters, and shocked at the stream of insults directed their way when they attempted to respond to the insult? You actually believe it was, as some have said, wrong of them to be upset about any of this? You side with spiderleaf, DuctapeFatwa, and their ilk?
If so, please let me know post-haste.
Are you asking me if I agree with Ductape or if I think he should be able to express his opinion?
I think Ductape engages in formulaic propandanda, doesn’t answer direct challenges, uses gross generalizations, and intentionally pisses people off. And he does it with style and flair.
I prefer his work on style, culture, and fashion. There’s no one better for watching the Oscars or any major award show.
His political stuff? Very predictable. But then, he comes as advertised.
I’m sorry a few members were offended by his latest work. But, it was no different, really, from anything he has written for the last three years. I do not see it as cause for getting upset. At least, if it were, you should have been upset a long time ago.
I’m not taking sides here. This is just my opinion. If you expect me to ban Ductape for questioning the reasonableness of Americans, then I guess you haven’t understood the ground rules for the site. People get banned from here for publishing private information, or for being a prick over a sustained period of time. The best way to deal with Ductape is to debate him. He usually loses any honest debate.
Check your archives. I think you’ll find I was.
Not really. I’ve seen much better trolling. His is, at best, fifth-rate. Very direct, with only the slightest pretense of deniability.
No further comment.
Neither, actually. You may, however, want to flip back through the past six months of archives and look at what names pop up where, and what strategies they use. You might see a pattern of sorts emerging.
What you do about it is up to you. It’s your community.
What he does about what, exactly? That some members of this site appreciate and recommend DT’s diaries? Don’t forget that it is Booman who says he invited DT to post here. As for your implication that there is a group or cadre maybe of DT operatives, you might notice that there are also groups of people who could be considered regular recommenders of ManEgee, or Military Tracy, or Madmaninthemarketplace. I certainly don’t like everything I read here, nor do I recommend everything I read here. It doesn’t mean that because I, along with some others, or even maybe a clear majority of people disagree, even vehemently with any one poster, that that constitutes a banning or a conspiracy of a DT cadre, or cabal.
If you don’t like his shit, don’t read it.
when I am personally vested in America and not ashamed to be an American or make big sacrifices for the good of the few that “God” grants me the ability to have an affect on. Usually I see all that stuff clearly when it comes to Ductape and I know that I could spend my day winning a debate or I could do something that would probably be considered more productive.
The US is currently engaged in what it refers to as a “war” against any person or entity who disagrees with its policies, which include a number of things that many people, especially non-Americans consider non-negotiable items on the wrong side of their moral values chart, such as invasion, occupation, torture, kidnapping, murder, etc. etc. etc.
The US has reasons for its positions, namely imperialism and greed. The same people who disagree with the policies and the implementation are likely to also disagree with the reasons, and since the elements of the implementation are on that wrong side of the moral values chart of Those Opposed, or the Enemy, anyway, the likelihood that even the most carefully crafted explanation of the reasons for the US position will find favor with the Enemy is small.
So any non-American, or any American who is pro-Reform, pro-modernization, pro-advancement, is, with all due respect, not doing our best thinking if we imagine that we can go onto a US forum, express our opinions, and not make people angry.
A while back, BooMan made a very good post, suggesting that people remember, “not everybody is as smart as you, as well-informed, as skilled at writing, etc.”
Although wrong about most things, BooMan was right about that. People have different levels of skills in different areas. Some people may be able to express very eloquently that they disagree with your opinion, disagree with your presence, and remind you that you are the Enemy with effortless skill that leaves everyone, even you, impressed with his way with a dangling modifier.
For others, “you are a doo doo head” may be the best they can do, and that is not their fault. That same person may be add long columns of figures in their head, while the guy who was so eloquent can’t even count his socks when he takes them out of the dryer.
None of those factors have anything to do with your Enemyhood. That is what you are.
This is an aspect of what the US calls “war,” an aspect of Imperialism, of indoctrination, of failed statehood, that comes with the territory.
And whether the forum you go to is a US one or not, a “political” one, or not, you will find some of the same phenomena.
Even though you might not be the Enemy on that other forum, there will still be people who disagree with you, and there will be people who are able to express that with varying levels of skill and talent.
And because the internet is a public place, no matter where you go, there will be people who are troubled, people who are participating under auspices other than their own, and people who are so very nice you are eager to get to know them offline and share your personal contact information.
And there is no guarantee that the categories above will not have some overlap, and a “robust” likelihood that they will, because once again, the Internet is a public place, so the precautions one would take in a public place are also prudent on the Internet.
It is not realistic to assume, hope, expect, or demand, that any internet site you visit will be free of people who disagree with you, people who are not fond of reading, people who are troubled, people whose values differ from yours, people who are not as smart as you, people who are smarter than you, or people who are the Enemy, or people for whom you are the Enemy.
So what is my point? What is my advice? Just type your stuff, say your piece, practice good personal security, keep your expectations realistic, and enjoy yourself! 🙂
Found that fish yet?
Was there one missing?
Yup. Ductape’s lost any fish he might have had. Very unfortunate.
if all those missing pills were ever found.
I only wish (sometimes) that I could be this dispassionate about it all Ductape. I know that people have very complicated lives outside of this blog, and try to take that into consideration.
But some things are being pushed to the point that I feel pressure to “take sides.” I have IMHO, tried to figure out how to join a conversation that might lead to some insights for myself, but I’m pretty sad that this at this point, we’re not getting very far at that.
I’ll choose sides if I have to – and will make my stand with those who are clearly opposed to US exceptionalism and who understand that just changing administrations and contol of congress only has the bare possibility beginning to change what is terribly wrong with this country.
I had continued to hope that we could talk about learn and maybe even agree to disagree. But when folks continue to say mean and belittling things to people I have grown to admire – tho none of us ever agree on everything – I think there comes a time to take a stand and say – enough already!
And Ductape and Catnip showed up here presumably to kick my ass……..what a bummer. If you guys can hold off a bit I’ll be right back for the swingfest!
I’m non-violent.
Has anyone watched on cspan the hearings on the latest nominee for a federal judgeship, cant remember his first name but last is Hanes or Haines and he was involved in the whole Bide/torture memo thing as well as a number of other things outlined by Ted Kennedy in a long tirade. What an explosive hearing that was with Lindsay Graham (wow) almost leading the charge against him. Well you would have had to watch, try to catch on the late night reruns. Lots of interesting little tid bits came out and the senators were listening intently to his opening statement.
Along with that there were on the other cspan the hearings on what form to make the tribunals, commissions, or what ever they decide, which looks to be very contentious in the long run…one intersting comment from a panel member, “don’t set the bar to high for the format for this as there will be virtually no prosecutions, one example, the rule of evidence…so essentially in order to get prosecutions they will have to strip out all of the protections to the accused. That is what it’s looking a lot like is going to happen.
Is he right? Can we pull it off and reach out to the American people, together?
I think we have to try. It’s our only hope.
Yes. I’ve got a diary half-written about this, but I think the reason Americans haven’t gotten involved isn’t because they don’t care.
It’s because no-one’s told them “Vote for us, and you can help make things better.”