You might remember my post on August 1st which described Ayatollah Sistani threatening the US with “severe consequences” if our government didn’t work toward a ceasefire in Lebanon. Well guess what? Hundreds of thousands have rallied in Baghdad against Israel and America, and they aren’t doing it on behalf of Sistani:
BAGHDAD, Iraq – Hundreds of thousands of Shiites chanting “Death to
Israel” and “Death to America” marched through the streets of Baghdad’s biggest Shiite district Friday in a show of support for Hezbollah militants battling Israeli troops in Lebanon. […]The demonstration was the biggest in the Middle East in support of Hezbollah since the Israeli army launched an offensive July 12 after a guerrilla raid on northern Israel. The protest was organized by radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, whose political movement built around the Mahdi Army militia has been modeled after Hezbollah.
Not good news. Muqtada al-Sadr is far more militant and extreme than Sistani. If Sistani is Iraq’s James Dobson, think of al-Sadr and his Mahdi Army as the Aryan Nation equivalent in Iraq, except far more numerous and armed to the teeth. This is seriously bad, folks.
“Mahdi Army and Hezbollah are one. Let them confront us if they dare,” the predominantly male crowd shouted, waving the flags of Hezbollah, Lebanon and Iraq. […]
“I am wearing the shroud and I am ready to meet martyrdom,” said Mohammed Khalaf, 35, owner of a clothes shop in the southern city of Amarah.
Al-Sadr followers painted U.S. and Israeli flags on the main road leading to the rally site, and demonstrators stepped on them — a gesture of contempt in Iraq. Alongside the painted flags was written: “These are the terrorists.”
Protesters set fire to American and Israeli flags, as well as effigies of
President Bush and Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, showing the men with Dracula teeth. “Saddam and Bush, Two Faces of One Coin” was scrawled on Bush’s effigy.Iraqi government television said the Defense Ministry had approved the demonstration, a sign of public anger over Israel’s offensive and of al-Sadr’s stature as a major player in Iraqi politics.
Love that bit about the Defense Ministry approving the march. They probably had no choice in the matter, but it should make clear to even the most dead deadender in the Bush Administration that we have lost Iraq’s people, and thus have lost Iraq. When our own puppets have turned against us what can we possibly do to turn the situation around in our favor?
That’s a rhetorical question by the way.
That is hard to ignore. I’m glad that they are protesting rather than shooting.
It should make Coulter and Malkin’s head explode to see democracy in action in Iraq. The same thing would happen in Cairo, Riyahd, and Amman if our goons weren’t beating the crap out of people.
Is that an anti-American thing to say or just a clear statement of fact?
Facts are inherently anti-American, Boo. You should know that.
Also posted at DKos
Boo or Steve,
The Iraq defense Minister approved the demonstration. But my question is do A Sadr or the Defense Minister have the recognized authority to issue a Fatwa that rumps the one Al Sistani issued on Monday?
Yes, I am aware that the pressure on Al Sistani to issue a Fatwa against the Americans is tremendous in light of this. However, don’t the Shia’s still have to hold back until Sistani acts?
The way it works in Shi’a Islam is that you get credit for how many years you have studied the Koran. After enough years you can become an Ayatollah, and after more study you can become a Grand Ayatollah.
Actually, you earn these stripes by the consensus of your peers. Grand Ayatollahs generally publish a book touching on all matters related to Islam.
In any case, Sistani is the most respected Ayatollah in Iraq, and his fatwas trump anyone else’s.
Sadr is a young man and not respected as a religious scholar.
His father and grandfather were very respected and he gets credit for that.
He’s basically just a thug that represents the poor.
There’s more photos on the wires of Amerikan flags a’burning. Report says 200k Shi’ites are in the streets.
Pax
To some extent this is a show of strength by al-Sadr, a warning to his competition among the Shi’a, and a good public relations move. But the larger concern is how angry the ordinary Iraqi in the street is with their “liberators” anger which can quickly be turned to violence against US troops should Sadr give the order.
There we go again
Muqtada al-Sadr is far more militant and extreme than Sistani. If Sistani is Iraq’s James Dobson, think of al-Sadr and his Mahdi Army as the Aryan Nation equivalent in Iraq, except far more numerous and armed to the teeth. This is seriously bad, folks.
Sadr = Dobson?
Maybe.
Mahdi Army = Aryan Nation?
Seriously Steven. The people decrying the “Islamofascists”, have they gotten to you too?
And we allow ourself to criticize Israel. Why can’t Iraqis do the same without getting a “This is seriously bad, folks.” from you? Or is the fact that they take to the streets while we sit in front of our computers too embarrassing?
Actually I compare Sistani to Dobson, and that comes based on what I’ve read about him on Riverbend’s blog. Sadr is far worse. He’s behind many of the death squads that are randomly killiy Sunnis and fostering the Civil war in Iraq. I think the comparison is fair.
Sadr is far worse. He’s behind many of the death squads that are randomly killiy Sunnis and fostering the Civil war in Iraq. I think the comparison is fair.
Actually, I think whoever is fostering the Civil war in Iraq has a lot of help from U.S. and British Special forces. Some Brits with a car full of bombs or bomb-making materials were in fact arrested by the Iraqi police once. A Brit commando “rescued” the arrested Brits via a shoot-out of some kind. Why do you think we don’t here more about that?
I agree that we started the training of death squads when Negroponte was our Ambassador to Iraq. But now they are out of our control. We made the mistake of thinking that we could turn al-Sadr into our puppet.
I’m afraid I’m not following your logic.
It is okay to criticize extremists in Israel but not in Iraq?
Are you contending there are no Islamic extremists?
Whether or not we like it, we still have over a hundred thousand troops in Iraq. Do you not find it seriously bad that they are stuck in a situation where hundreds of thousands of enraged people are calling for death to America? Is it not seriously bad that our policies in the Middle East provoke this kind of reaction? Is it not seriously bad that we seem only to inflame tensions, provoke extremists, and bundle any attempt to deal with more reasonable people? Is it not seriously bad that this whole situation has the potential to spiral more and more out of control? That more and more people, whatever their religion or nationality, are like to suffer or die?
As to your last comment, yes it is embarassing that American people are not in the streets over many of the issues of the day. However, it is unlikely to happen until people become more aware of what is going on and what the consequences might be. Sitting in front of a computer or demonstrating in the streets is not an either/or choice and many here do both. Steven and Booman and other diarists here do a great service by sitting in front of their computers and providing facts, perspective and a forum for discussion. Uninformed and uninspired people are unlikely to take to the streets.
Strawmen.
I’ve never said criticizing extremists in Iraq are not OK.
What I said was criticizing people in Iraq for demonstrating against Israel at this junction of events was kind of unfathomable.
Yes. I felt you were erecting strawmen.
I did not interpret Steven’s comments as criticizing people demonstrating against Israel. I took them as saying that the mess in the Middle East is out of control, and we have contributed to it.
Perhaps I misinterpreted what he meant. Perhaps you did.
the point is that the protests were organized by a very unsavory guy. Whether the protests have any validity is not the point. The point is that several hundred thousands supporters of Sadr are on the streets burning American flags and calling for our deaths.
This was entirely predictable.
So, I think you surmised Steven’s point correctly. He is not even addressing the merits of the protests. He is letting us know that we’ve reached a new dangerous point.
this is why we need a flag burning amendment. This sort of thing needs to be stopped before it gets out of hand.
boy did you say a mouth full on that one!!!! :o)
I seriously am frightened as to the turn of events in the ME, even tho it was predicted, I just kept thinking things will work out ok..(snark) This is what is known as Pandora’s Box, opened…right?
Be careful when you ask a storyteller these things. 🙂
Because when Pandora opened the box, yeah, a great deal of unpleasantness was unleashed upon the world, but there’s a big difference between Pandora’s box and the current situation. If you remember the story, the last thing out of the box was Hope. It’s really hard to see any hope coming out of the Middle East right now.
Characterizing Sistani as James Dobson understates Sistani’s influence among Shi’ites. And consequently understates the threat should Sistani take the position that Sadr has taken.
Even the Bush administration understands that Sistani’s open and militant opposition to American troops in Iraq would mean a quick end to their enterprise. It could also mean a collapse of the current government. For three years, the Bushies have tiptoed carefully around Sistani.
Sistani has no army. What I fear is that he will at some point come out and support someone who does.
and from what I can surmise, they didn’t even know or care who Sistani was before the invasion.
“Saddam and Bush, Two Faces of One Coin”
And it could be said a coin on one side showing what we knew would happen over there but ignored, and the other side showing what this admin is still ignoring. The irony is killing me.
This is just the latest sign that they need to get US and “coalition” >>cough<< troops out ASAP. If something happens in Iran, or Syria, they will quickly find themselves in the desert version of Dien Bien Phu, surrounded on all sides. Rumsfield and Bush will lose an Army in Iraq, for nothing.
At least we can’t be called, “hypocrites” for trying to break up the demonstrations … yet.
Freedom means freedom to hate, too, doesn’t it?
that is, if you wanna feel like slitting your wrists.
It’s all too plausible and there won’t be anywhere to hide.
Thanks Boo,
I have a glimmer of hope that Congress or someone will threaten the neo cons with a 10 year tour of Iraq or something equally justified.
Seriously, your explanation allayed my fears. So I won’t hyper ventilate until Al Sistani issues the Fatwa.
Whew – will at least get some sleep tonight. Thanks again.
The Israel/Palestine conflict is the center of all middle east politics. That we have insanely resisted all reasonable calls for a ceasefire while Israel has deliberately massacred civilians at will lines us up on their team. That we expected our paid client regimes to come out and support Israel against Hezbollah or at least remain neutral shows a complete lack of understanding. That we thought the neo-con dream of sunni turning on shia would aid Israel was completely without reason. Our middle east policy has always histroically been extremely weak. Now it is not only suicidal for us but also verging on the genocidal in its support for Israels targetting of the shia of Lebanon.