If you are expecting a titillating description of erotic techniques sure to make you a hit with your lover, stop reading now. You will be disappointed.
What whores know about sex is the difference between Theory Sex and Practice Sex, that is, the sex we say we do versus the sex we actually do. Theory Sex is mutual desire, arousal, and fulfillment enjoyed by equal partners without a power component. This is the myth of heterosexuality.
Practice Sex makes Theory Sex impossible. It makes YES meaningless when NO is impossible. Before you protest that no IS possible, suspend judgment for a moment.
We know that over forty percent of girls have been molested before they were eighteen. We know that over forty percent of women have been raped. We know that women are battered and killed everyday by men with whom they share or shared a bed.
Less that 8% of American women surveyed were able to say that they had never been raped, never fought off an attempted rape, never been grabbed and groped, never been seriously threatened with physical or economic harm if they didn’t put out. Even that depressing figure is deceptive because “rape” is not defined from the perspective of its victims. “Have you ever had sex that made you feel violated?” might be a better question, because for rape to magically transform into legal sex requires only consent. Consent; acquiescence; not desire, just consent. Verdicts in rape cases correlate not to the degree of harm done, but to the relationship between the parties; the better you know the rapist, the less your feelings matter. This is sex in practice.
Marriage is the theoretical home of Theory Sex. Here, despite great disparity in pay, status, and power, there is supposed to be that mutual sex free of domination and submission.
But what about the marriages where sex is part of a beating, or the “making up” after a beating; or the marriages where refusing sex will result in a beating; where saying no means a temper tantrum, or no grocery money, or the silent treatment, or a child’s ruined birthday party? What about marriages where pornography is used to show wives how “real women” should be, as if those pictured women who are having real things done to their real, bruised bodies were enthusiastic participants instead of dehumanized objects, paid or coerced to pretend they like what’s happening to them. What does a woman’s yes mean if she can’t say no?
Even if she loves sex with her husband, but just not tonight, how many nights can she say no before she’d better say yes, and simulate the enthusiasm to go with it? How much inconvenient honesty will he tolerate? If she loves her husband, and doesn’t want to hurt his feelings, “yes” is easier; a little acting in a good cause never hurt anybody, right? Well, not anyone who isn’t regarded as a fully authentic human, anyway.
How many of us have wondered, in the dark quiet afterward, what sex is, and if lying and pretending are kindness or cowardice, and would it be OK to just do it without the deception, or will truth make the whole thing collapse like a house of cards? Besides, being “sexy” is much of what makes us attractive and desirable; it is a way of expressing love, if not always real passion. Can a woman ever be authentic if only inauthenticity makes her feel feminine?
Have we dared to wonder if the man we love suspects any of this? Is it OK with him as long as the heterosexual myth is maintained? I ask again, what is sex, what is love, what is a woman?
I’m tired, and I’m going home to cry, not because sexual desire unburdened by dominance and inequality, love that thrives in truth, and humanness are in such short supply. I wept my fill for those years ago.
I’ll cry tonight because I’m afraid people want to believe that they already have those things more than they actually want them.
That’s an amazing statement in its simple truth.
When my first marriage was ending we were forced by circumstances to continue to live together. When he knew he was losing me he got very demanding and very very interested in sex for the first time in nearly twenty years and I put him off the best I could until it felt dangerous to do it anymore. I felt raped even though we’d been married for half my life and I didn’t say no. It was horrible, dehumanizing, humiliating. I did it to keep him from getting angry. It was an attempt to smooth things over for the upcoming separation and divorce and to keep him from making things hard for me and the kids.
I knew he was trying to prove ownership of me and dominance over me and still I felt I had to do it. The thought still makes me nauseous. At times like that you separate from your body and try to pretend you are somewhere, anywhere else. No one would ever think that went on in my marriage, in my house, with that seemingly nice man.
Sadly, I think you’re far from alone in your experience with being bullied into sex.
Not alone, but not silent, either. Worse than the sad stories is the deafening silence of women.
Catharine MacKinnon’s new book is “Are Women Human?”, which I have on order and eagerly await. From her other writings, I suppose she will be addressing, among other things, that degraded, disassociated feeling. For years I was never in the same room with any man during sex; I observed it as a third person from a mile high balcony.
There is such truth in your words. Gloria said that the real revolution would come through conversations about private lives, because the personal is politcal.
Thank you for validating our experiences with yours.
For years I was never in the same room with any man during sex; I observed it as a third person from a mile high balcony.
Reminds me of one of the loneliest monologues I’ve ever performed. From the decidely not heterosexual, Edward Albee’s “Seascape.”
You present us with some pretty big and complex questions, which I certainly don’t have any answers to.
So much of sex is tied in with the fantasy of what we wished it would be (really?), what we were led to believe it would be, what we are told it should be, what the expectations, fantasies and “should be’s” of our partner(s) is. . .very complex indeed. . .and all of this juxtaposed with what it is in any given experience.
Along with all of that we have the question of what role sex plays in love, or love plays in sex and why, and how. . . and all the ands.
A very large subject. Perhaps we should talk more about your sadness about this. . .I am not exactly sure of its origin.
Hugs
Shirl
A huge subject, to be sure. Add in sex as a commodity to be traded, bought and sold, bartered for and you’ve got a complicated and less than romantic image of what sex is at its worst. And trading sex for something tangible is not the exclusive domain of prostitutes, but something many of us do whether consciously or not.
The basis & center of the patriarchy, the social system in which male control is normalized, is the commodification of women’s bodies. It used to be that men traded women’s bodies like property (and in some places they still more or less do), but as women have resisted, it has become more of a shell game of sorts where men con, pressure, and/or otherwise coerce women into trading our own bodies.
And people get socialized to believe that sex=male orgasm so that heterosexual sex becomes something the men get and women give. I think that feminism has really helped women to change that dynamic on a personal level but hasn’t been nearly as successful in changing the cultural presentation.
I think it’s a little more complex than that. It seems to me that there are several different kinds of warped messages in our culture about what sex is.
For example, there’s definitely the one that says sex=male orgasm, but because of the patriarchy, very basic aspects of women’s fundamental identities are defined in male terms. I mean, this practice of men defining women in relation & in opposition to themselves goes all the way back to the Ancient Greeks, at least, and is still prevalent in fairly modern non-feminist theory. And since women have been, in large part and over thousands of years, forbidden education and kept out of the philosophy wing of the academy, it still persists.
So there’s also the message that says that “sex is something men do and something women are“, which is one of the things even young children start to pick up long before they understand anything about orgasms. It’s one of the many places where you can see objectification begin to rear its ugly head. Boys who pick this up become men who objectify women and never see them as quite fully human. Girls who’ve not been taught anything differently grow up into women who come to accept this definition of their own bodies as objects (sometimes directly saleable, sometimes indirectly so) to be consumed for male sexual pleasure because our culture makes it very difficult to define ourselves in any other way.
The circularity of women’s problems.
I’m glad you brought up women defined as sex. I was loath to branch off into the pornography/ who’s speech/ objectification aspect, but it’s is probably the biggest gun used to repress women while it claims to “liberate” out sexuality.
I think we need an infusion of testosterone into this conversation.
There are a lot of causes for the nature of male/female relations in our culture. Some of them are genuinely evolutionary. Some of them are driven by women’s choices and strategies.
Just to throw one on example out there to chew on. I have seen a study where they showed women picture of men and then asked them how attractive they thought they were and how suitable as a partner of raising children they were.
The results showed that the higher the level of testorsterone in a man’s body the more attractive he was for a one-night stand and the less attractive he was as a life-long mate.
This might seem odd at first, but it probably has a strictly evolutionary cause. We can see it in the term cuckold, derived from the cuckoo bird. A man is seen as attractive if he is virile and has a strong sex drive, but for that very reason is seen as undependable as a monogamous and dedicated mate.
Thus, certain behaviors in men are reinforced. They are rewarded for sexual confidence and drive with non-committal sex. They also spread their seed around more, reinforcing whatever genetic component there is to this.
This doesn’t really explain why rapes occur. At least, it doesn’t seem to have a direct relationship. But it does create a set of incentives for men to act like pigs.
The men I’ve known that have had the most consensual sexual partners are the one’s that would say anything, however insincere, and feign interest, and then be cruel the next day. The men I’ve known that have treated their partners the best are the one’s that were always too shy, or too humble, or too honest to be very successful attracting women.
I don’t think we should put all the blame on women for this. But it is a factor in why misogny persists. If men need to educate men on violence towards women, women need to educate women on what constitutes a good man.
Very interesting point – and indeed filled with testosterone. 🙂
A simple explanation would be: just as men believe there are women you fuck and women you marry, women are also prone to differentiate what makes a good fuck from what makes a good lifelong partner.
I think (hope) that nice guys eventually win out as we all mature.
that’s what second husbands are for 😉
Got a cite for that? I’d love to take a look at the methodology.
Here’s a link to a review article that has a link to the full reference list of the individual studies cited. Link
thank you.
So, I guess you women can also sense a man’s affinity for children just by looking at us. And, yet, it doesn’t make you want to screw men that have an affinity for children. Just the opposite.
That’s a cruel evolutionary trick that serves no one very well.
Hmm. I got that wrong.
It isn’t the opposite.
Women are actually attracted to men that have an affinity for children. But that attraction is for the men as long-term mates. As far as I can tell, the study doesn’t look at whether there is a corrolation between testosterone levels and affinity for children, and the study’s sample is probably too small to tell.
There’s a reason my single guy friends liked to “babysit” CBtY at music festivals when he was a baby…
Puppies work too.
Shit, I can’t look at it online? The disability prevents me from getting to the library for full text. 🙁 Damn I hate being so sick. Thanks for giving me a cite, though, if I get the chance I really am interested in their methodology — the pheromone type stuff is always so fascinating to me. 🙂
I’ll see if I can find it for you for free and post the link here. It’ll be a little while though.
I am sad that we’ve been fighting for the simple idea that women are human for thirty years, and that so little has changed. I’m sad that the pie wars could happen on an ostensibly liberal site in 2005. I am sad to see young girls rush into traps that I had once hoped would be dismantled by now.
This is one thing that I will bother trying to teach men.
Men, as a group, through violence and the treat of violence, have conditioned women, as a group, to be afraid of not pleasing them. And one of the biggest ways to please a man is to have sex with him.
So, you’re the proverbial “nice guy” who would never “do that to a woman.” Doesn’t matter.
Because:
a) you get more than you are entitled to from women just because you’re relatively better than the average scum-bag
b) look in your mirror, now see your body as a gun – a gun that never shoots anyone, may never even has been loaded, but a gun nonetheless – guns/men’s bodies very existence are so intertwined with violence that its mere presence is a threat in and of itself. Always.
Good men don’t have to hurt women. All they have to do is get displeased, and we will seek to please you, because we can’t afford to learn your trigger-point.
Most men will say that this is unfair, can’t they just be judged on their own merits. You can when I can.
Men who want this to change need to change men. Period. If you ever let other men tell sexist jokes, assuming that as another man you won’t get offended, tell them you are deeply offended, and why. Do this and you’ll learn first hand what it is like to tell a man “no” on behalf of those who are not entitled to the word. Cast your lot with ours and feel how threatening the air gets – how the tension in the room hums in your bones and strains the muscles in your neck.
Form a Men Against Rape group, and say all of this to other men. Reject all forms of male privilege, especially the unearned praise of women.
Do this every day, and then I’ll believe you are one of the “good guys.”
(The same is true of racism, if you are not actively anti-racist, putting yourself out there on the line as a traitor to your race, you’re still part of the problem. “Not partisipating” is not an option, and lack of action always defers to the status quo.)
Men Against Rape
Anti-Racist Alliance
Exerpt from the poemNatural Resources
6.
It was never the rapist:
it was the brother, lost,
the comrade/twin whose palm
would bear a lifeline like our own:
decisive, arrowy,
forked-lighing of insatiate desire
It was never the crude pestle, the blind
ramrod we were after:
merely a fellow-creature
with natural resources equal to our own
7.
Meanwhile, another kind of being
was constructing itself, blindly
–a mutant, some have said:
the blood-compelled exemplar
of a “botched civilization”
as one of them called it
children picking up guns
for that is what it means to be a man
We have lived with violence for seven years
It was not worth one single life–
but the patriot’s fist is at her throat,
her voice is in mortal danger
and that kind of being has lain in our beds
declaring itself our desire
requiring women’s blood for life
a woman’s breast to lay its nightmare on
8.
And that kind of being has other forms:
a passivity we mistake
–in the desperation of our search–
for gentleness
But gentleness is active
gentleness swabs the crusted stump
invents more merciful instrument
to touch the wound beyond the wound
does not faint with disgust
will not be driven off
keeps bearing witness calmly
against the predator, the parasite
9.
I am tired of faintheartedness,
their having to be exceptional
to do what an ordinary woman
does in the course of things
for my daughter, my sons, my husband.
“This is one thing that I will bother trying to teach men.”
You’ve already lost the majority of men right there–by far the majority. If it is worth it to you to try to “teach us” something, it might behoove you to avoid making such broad, acid laced statements. It’s hard to listen to the message with an open mind when you get slapped in the face before you even hear it.
I make an effort, every day, to try and change my world. I fall short, of course, of what I expect from myself, and of what others expect from me, but I try, and I don’t give up. I go out of my way to try and be aware of sexism, racism, etc. I not only do my best to remove it from my language, I tell those around me about it too. My friend the other day said he made a “black ace” when playing golf–he put it in from the tee, but it was not his first throw from the tee pad. I took the opportunity to point out what underlies a statement like that. It’s crazy, but I honestly don’t think he realized the implications of what he was saying. This is a guy who had people come up to him on his porch last year and give him a leaflet for a white supremacist picnic to be held in his neighborhood. He immediately informed them that they were not welcome in his neighborhood, and proceeded to follow them around, taking down every flyer they put up. The thing that many people don’t catch is the language–our language is full of racist/sexist remarks, many of them very subtle. It affects how we view things, and we need to be careful how we use it.
No matter how you slice it, I find this statement unacceptable: “you get more than you are entitled to from women just because you’re relatively better than the average scum-bag”. I am no more personally responsible for this than you are. As you point out, the important thing is doing your personal best to make a change, and while I am so far from perfect I can’t even begin to describe it, I do make the effort. And if I’m better (not saying I am) than the average, then how is it that I wouldn’t deserve some recognition for that? If you’re better than the average in any part of your life, don’t you deserve some recognition for the distinction, whatever it may be?
Do you accept this statement as true for you? “Good men don’t have to hurt women. All they have to do is get displeased, and we will seek to please you, because we can’t afford to learn your trigger-point.” Do you go out of your way to please men because you are afraid of them? I wouldn’t be surprised, I know many women do, and it’s truly tragic. Try to look at it from the other side for a moment. To apply this, that means that to be a good man I would have to avoid ever being displeased. As a member of the human race, an imperfect being, I just don’t see that goal as attainable. Is it then impossible for me to be a good man? If the goal is to be strived for, that is one thing. But if the goal is in and of itself impossible to attain, you set everyone up to fail. Is that your intent? Putting a task before a group of people, then defining the task in such a way that it is impossible to attain is not, imho, the way to go about convincing the group to change. Sure, define the ultimate state as something to strive for, but don’t set the standard for being acceptable (i.e., being a “good man”) so high that it cannot be attained.
“Most men will say that this is unfair, can’t they just be judged on their own merits. You can when I can.” How could men not say that this is unfair? It is unfair. Your go on and on about how unfair all of this is to women, and you’re right–then you turn right around and show disdain for someone who might question the fairness of your views. When you paint with a big brush like this, you cover over some really good people with your paint–and you lose ground in the fight for equality. Alienating those who would listen to your arguments doesn’t do much for your cause.
I’m sure you’ll flame me for this, but that’s alright. I learn from you, and I appreciate your input, even if I think you would be more productive if you were a little less confrontational, made even a small attempt to look at it from a male perspective. After all, I didn’t ask to be born male any more than you asked to be born female–blaming me for it doesn’t seem to accomplish much.
Wolverine writer, why do you suppose you felt a need to reprimand Keres for her tone and language choice instead of turning your anger on the men who rape women, and the men who enable men to rape women? Aren’t they by far the bigger problem here? Why focus your attention on one woman’s behavior that you perceived as merely rude rather than focusing on the countless men who rape and victimize women?
I don’t appreciate her tone and language choice. I honestly–truly–believe that using such tone and language not only undermines the message but damages the cause. I am not a woman, but I very much love the women in my life, and I want the world be become a more supportive and accepting place for them. Lumping all men together and setting impossible standards for them does not help–it makes the situation worse, imo.
Of course the bigger problem here is the overall problem of inequality. I don’t have the definitive answer on how to fix the situation. I am interested in being part of the solution, however.
Being a woman and speaking out on a “womens” issue doesn’t give someone the right to assume that men are incapable of making a change or that they don’t deserve credit for attempting to. This is a human issue. It affects us all. I want to be a better person, I want to be a better man. Help me to be one, don’t blame me for things I cannot control (like being born male) and then tell me that the only acceptable behavior on my part is impossible to attain. The only thing accomplished when you do that is widening the gulf.
Your response just seems really out of place to me, really disconnected from the reality of rape as a mechanism of social control of women. I mean, I get why Keres is coming from where she comes from; although I don’t come from the same place, I do understand it, but if your goals are as you say — and I take you at your word — then I don’t get why you’re choosing to argue with her about her tone instead of trying to learn from the other 9 women who were in the room (via our posts) when you showed up.
I honestly–truly–believe that using such tone and language not only undermines the message but damages the cause.
What precisely do you mean by this, and what are you basing it on? Are you saying that you think that if women would just be more polite then men would stop raping us, or start helping us better defend ourselves against the men who do rape us? Because I can assure you, that’s not only not true, it’s also a very fucked up perspective. It’s like, if there are two crimes happening, a violent crime and a breach of etiquette in response to the violent crime, who in their right mind goes after the breach of etiquette? But like I said, I’m not sure if that’s what you’re trying to say.
Perhaps this will help to bridge the communication gap — I think you may have had a personal tragedy at the time that many of the women here posted diaries about how we’ve been raped, so perhaps you missed the stories. But here’s the thing: we never know which men will rape us. Men seem to think it’s crystal clear, but women know for a fact that it’s not.
So it’s not a matter of “lumping all men together” as evil rapists. But it is a matter of necessarily seeing all men as potential rapists, and necessarily seeing all men as potentially contributing to the constant threat of rape under which women live. And it will continue to be that way for as long as we have a sexist society that teaches men to objectify women. It’s men who create and maintain that society because men have the greater power, thus men are the ones who need to pick up responsibility for this problem. Sure, we women are resisting and fighting back, but it never helps when men who wish to be our brothers harsh on us for our tone instead of harshing on the men who threaten and rape us, thereby causing us to feel that that tone is a necessary line of defense in the first place.
As hard as this may be to see from where you are standing, I am taking her to task for her tone because I am trying to help. I am trying to point out that from a male perspective it is really easy to dismiss someone who goes on a rant and distorts the issues, paints with the big brush, and refuses to acknowledge the efforts that men make.
I’m the guy you need to inform, I’m the guy you need to convince. I’m very open to trying to make the world a better, safer place for women. If the way you bring the message to me is so combative that I won’t listen, imo, you have already lost the battle. I have no empirical evidence to present you, but in my experience, I am much more concerned about “womens” issues than the average American male. Much more. And I am making an effort to inform the males around me of the issues, trying to change their views and understanding. I’m doing my best to raise all my kids to do what they can to walk and talk equality.
As far as “when I showed up”, perhaps I was wrong in assuming that I was welcome. I found the diary to be very moving, very informative. It did and is making me think, altering my perspective–I am learning, from all of you. I’m sorry, but this is not in my opinion a “womens issue”. Its a human issue, and I think that some of the comments down thread would support that. This diary isn’t just about rape, its about subjugation and inequality. If the insistence is that the males in the society are the ones who need to make the changes, then doesn’t it make sense to be happy that they are willing to engage in the process? Do you really want to sit here and discuss it amongst the nine women in the room? Do you truly want me to butt out so you can get down to some good, clean male bashing without interruption? If that is the consensus, so be it, you are entitled. Let me know if that is the case and I will move along.
Rape from the perspective of not being able to say no–I’m not sure how to deal with that. It’s hard to get my head around the concept.
I’m not saying that you should be polite in your demands for equality–you deserve equality, and you have every right to demand it. What I’m saying is this–making the demand, depending on how you do it, can be extremely counterproductive. Stating that you have to do this, this, this, and that, and then you are allowed to express an opinion, is not going to work, imo. I’m not asking you to pretty it up, or run around asking everyone to please be nice to you. I’m just saying that alienating those that want to help you make the necessary changes just because they were born male isn’t helping the cause.
And yes, there was certainly “lumping all men together” going on–I think that is readily apparent if you look back at the original comment. No one likes to be lumped.
And I don’t know–maybe I’m just a little too touchy today, too. Tomorrow…well, tomorrow…is going to be a tough day.
As hard as this may be to see from where you are standing, I am taking her to task for her tone because I am trying to help.
It’s not hard for me to see that at all. Quite the contrary, actually. I assume you want to help, I’m just trying to show you that you are, in fact, not helping.
I’m the guy you need to inform, I’m the guy you need to convince.
I’m really glad that you realize that you don’t get it. That’s as good a place to start as any. Now step back and take a deep breath and stop attributing things like a desire to “male-bash” to me, which is so far removed from who I am such as to be completely ludicrous. Read my posts again if you need to, so you don’t confuse my statements with what anyone else is saying.
If the way you bring the message to me is so combative that I won’t listen, imo, you have already lost the battle.
This is exactly what I’m questioning. You had 9 other women to interact with, yet you chose to enter the discussion by arguing with the one whose tone you didn’t like. Why did you make that choice, when there were 9 other choices available to you?
I’m certainly not saying that you should’ve left the room — far from it. I’m glad you’re here because I think more men need to be a part of this dialogue. Which isn’t to say that it will all be comfortable for them. It won’t. As a class, men have victimized women, and that’s a fact. Of course there are men who are not guilty, just like there are women who have not been victimized (and there are abusive women — my mother was abusive and I’ve been in an abusive lesbian relationship), but the existence of exceptions doesn’t change the fact of the general truths.
The problem isn’t about uppity/rude/whatever women; the problem is men who rape women, and men who continue to enable the sexist, unequal society that allows men to continue to control women with rape and/or threats of other violence. Any sustained focus on anything else distracts from the real problem.
Which is exactly why I brought up the example I did about the two crimes. When there’s ongoing violent crime, and there’s ongoing breaches of etiquette in response to those violent crimes, do you focus on the breaches of etiquette or on the violent crimes?
Very well said.
I was actually attempting to craft a reply to the original diary, but as written elsewhere was having a hard time not making a lot of references to my marriage (my wife has expressly asked me not to involve her here). The comment by keres was the only one other than the diary itself that I felt compelled to respond to at that time–at that time, very little had been said in the comments, other than to congratulate susanw. There weren’t nine options for comment at that time, there were two, and I was having a hard time with the first one so I commented on the second. I simply responded to what I felt compelled to respond to.
Your example of two crimes has no relevance–keres commited no crime. She had every right to state exactly what she did. I just don’t agree, and I further believe her comments to be counterproductive. As I have said elsewhere here–this diary is not just about rape. Drawing some correlation and stating that the one is so much more important than the other–I don’t understand the reasoning. If an argument is flawed, it is flawed, regardless of what other arguments are out there. Writing about a subject you care deeply about doesn’t give you a pass on what you write.
I would like to say that apparently you don’t get it, either. Being strong in your message is one thing, demanding certain standards is one thing. Placing an impossible task in front of people, and then telling them that they have no right to comment until they’ve accomplish said task, is an absolute guaranteed recipe for failure. Read what keres wrote and how I responded closely–I think you will see what I’m talking about.
And please, define for me, what you mean by I’m not helping. You haven’t shown me that in a way that I can recognize, despite your intentions to do so–and I do believe in your intentions.
I think you’re misreading me, ww, and I completely grant that I may be misreading you. Let’s keep trying.
define for me, what you mean by I’m not helping
I think you’re not helping when you choose to enter a discussion about rape and systemic inequality with comments chastising rudeness rather than rape. I think that amounts to distracting from the real problem, which is not women being rude in response to being threatened as a class, it’s men as a class exerting violent control over women as a class.
I simply responded to what I felt compelled to respond to.
I know, and I’m trying to get to an understanding about why, out of all the possible responses you could have had to this massive social problem, you “felt compelled” to come into the discussion by chastising one woman whom you believed to be rude.
I further believe her comments to be counterproductive.
I hear that, and I’ve asked you to explain, precisely, how you think that works, but I’m not getting it. Counterproductive in what way? How does one woman being, in your view, rude to men, in a message thread about how men as class control women as a class with rape and violence, wind up making a man such as yourself not want to help stop the rape and violence and inequality? I honestly don’t understand how that works.
Like, let’s draw a comparison to race. I’m white. Sometimes I think black people say some very harsh things about white people as a class. But that would never in a million years alienate me from fighting against racism, nor would I condescend to reprimand a black person for being uppity and rude in response to such horrible victimization such as my race has perpetrated against theirs.
I believe I understand why they’d say such things, even if I feel wounded by them sometimes on a personal level as a white person who’s committed to fighting against racism. Fact is, most white people aren’t thusly committed, which is why racism persists, and I don’t expect anyone to pretend otherwise just to make me feel more comfortable in discussions about how harmful racism is. My getting my feelings all puffed up just distracts from the far more important goal of the group figuring out how to stop racism.
cabingirl mentioned this. When the discussion is about electing anti-choice democrats, many women get alienated by people that dismiss their concerns as merely being single-issue voters. The very language that is used is so off-putting that the recipient of that language will sometimes refuse to listen to any further debate. Or they may completely disengage politically.
In the same way, if the issue is race, if a white person feels personally offended, they may lose sympathy for the argument.
And, in this case WW was making the same exact point.
I’m not sure why you are focused on his choices here. He was offended and pointed out that offending him meant that pretty much anyone would be offended, since he is actually interested in being a part of the solution.
I could easily ask why so many women were so focused on Markos’s ‘sanctimonious women-studies set’ comment that they lost sight of the greater issue of whether he should turn down $2000 in advertising revenue to satisy some of his critics.
It doesn’t work very well to question why someone was offended. If you offend people they generally stop listening, whether it is in their best interests to do so, or not.
I keep making this point to Casey supporters and they keep calling people purists, radical feminists, and morons.
It doesn’t do Casey’s campaign any favors, that is for sure. And I think that is what WW is driving at here. Although, I didn’t personally find keres’s comment so off-putting.
I realize that you think it’s the same thing but it’s really not. Your analysis fails to take up the the power disparity in the contexts, and is sort-of akin to the “reverse racism” charge that racist conservatives love so much, and unfortunately I don’t have the time to get into explaining the why of that to you. See my comment below to ww, I have to go deal with my illness.
Maybe someone else can explain it to you in a way such as to help you understand why your analogy is flawed. If not, I’ll be happy to do it some other day. 🙂
I’m glad you haven’t given up on me. Yes, let’s keep trying.
I think you’re not helping when you choose to enter a discussion about rape and systemic inequality with comments chastising rudeness rather than rape. I think that amounts to distracting from the real problem, which is not women being rude in response to being threatened as a class, it’s men as a class exerting violent control over women as a class.
I entered the discussion not to comment on rudeness so much as to point out that the way the message is presented is very important. As I said in a different comment, “If you wish only to rant, only to inflame the passions of those who are like-minded and listening, then by all means rant. But remember, by doing so, you are preaching to the choir. Don’t expect much in the way of conversion as a result. And also remember, without converting the mind set of a greater percentage of the population, the status quo is very likely to continue.” I in no way meant to downplay the importance of the issue at hand, or to compare the importance of the tone of the comment to the importance of the overall issue. To me, given the thoughts that I’ve seen expressed here, I take it as a given that the BT community is pretty much in lock-step with the view that rape is beyond reprehensible and that equality is one of the main goals of the liberal left. I just want people to understand–I can take the original post and talk to “average” males about it, use it as starting point for progressive discussion, which may well lead to a difference in how they lead their lives. Despite the fact that there are important points within keres’ comments that should also be addressed, I do not see it as possible to use said comments as a starting point for discussion–it is difficult to look beneath the surface and find the content. I also think it is important to acknowledge something that I have repeatedly said–“Placing an impossible task in front of people, and then telling them that they have no right to comment until they’ve accomplish said task, is an absolute guaranteed recipe for failure.” I believe that strongly. I am trying to help–I’m trying to point out that when you try to covert someone other than the choir, you need present things clearly, without dismissing whole segments of society, and you need to make your goals attainable (I’m not saying easy, just attainable).
…out of all the possible responses you could have had to this massive social problem, you “felt compelled” to come into the discussion by chastising one woman whom you believed to be rude.
Think I already addressed that above, but if unclear, please let me know.
How does one woman being, in your view, rude to men, in a message thread about how men as class control women as a class with rape and violence, wind up making a man such as yourself not want to help stop the rape and violence and inequality?
First and foremost, there is nothing that could be said here or anywhere else that would make me not want to help. Not possible. I want to stamp out racism and violence and inequality, and the opinions of thousands couldn’t make me feel differently. I don’t know how possible it is to eradicate it completely, but I’m trying very hard to do my part, and I’ve made plenty of people uncomfortable around me as a result. So be it. And as far as being rude, yes, she was being very rude, but that’s not the bigger problem. Don’t set me up to fail. I don’t deserve it and I don’t like it. How can I teach my boys to be non-sexist if they can’t win? If the bar isn’t even visible? How can I convince my friends to be non-sexist if this is the message?
…nor would I condescend to reprimand a black person for being uppity and rude in response to such horrible victimization such as my race has perpetrated against theirs.
How does this play out, exactly? It sounds like you’ve given a pass to anyone of color to be just as nasty as they please in any situation without any comment or reaction from you whatsoever. Am I understanding that right? Because I can’t imagine you just taking overt sexual comments from a black man and just letting it go because his ancestors where enslaved and he has an uphill battle in his life. I’m not saying he doesn’t deserve a little slack in some areas, or that he doesn’t deserve some help along the way. I’m saying that he has no right to treat you as anything less than you are–a human being, deserving of respect. No accident of birth gives someone a pass when it comes to that. Understanding why they might feel/act certain ways–I understand that, its important to walk in someone’s shoes as best you can. But there are limits, and there is a difference between understanding and allowing yourself to be victimized. Allowing yourself to be victimized only exacerbates the problem.
By the way, sorry to hear that you are not feeling well. Hope I’m not contributing to your less than optimal state of health.
Meanwhile, I so hate to do this after I just offered to keep trying, but I have to bow out of this discussion — at least for a while, and I possibly won’t be able to get back to it until the subject comes up again in another diary or something. I’m disabled with a chronic autoimmune disease, which means infection is a bit more dangerous for me than for most folks, and I just realized I’m running a 101 degree fever, so I need to go deal with that.
Until next time, then.
Take care of yourself, please.
And thank you for the many things you’ve given me to think about.
Take care of yourself, Indylib. I’m sorry you’re not feeling well. Thanks for the insight.
Wow Indylib and Wolverine Writer. I’m not an academic feminist, but I believe patriarchy sucks. You certainly sparked a lot of thoughts in me.
I recently worked with a gay independent film maker on his thesis. There was one speech in the film that was full of righteous anger at the situations gays face in our society and a lot of blame directed at the straight community. The film maker struggled with whether or not to keep that speech. He asked for my opinion. I tried to get off the hook by saying, “Hey, don’t ask me I’m not gay.” But he pressed on.
Well, I asked him, “Do you want this film to be primarly cathartic for gays who are so wronged in our society or do you want to try to reach straight people who could become your allies in the fight for justice and equity?” “Either is a legitimate goal for your film.” “What to do want to do?”
I guess this is a round about way of saying I see where each of you is coming from.
3. Most importantly, I really applaud your willingness to keep trying to communicate with each other, respectfully and passionately.
this goes back to the rape diaries and also some of the issues about race that were discussed while stark was around.
One group has perhaps lost patience with the slow pace of change, and decides to start hollering.
Another groups says, ‘stop hollering’, no one likes to be harangued.
And then the debate begins.
I think WW read the diary and was just wincing at how it came across and how it would come across the guys he knows.
His criticism is intended to be constructive criticism. But perhaps the wincing is what was desired in the first place.
Actually, its not the diary at all that I take issue with. Its the comment by keres.
right. that’s what I meant.
I was going to reply to that post, but you said it better than I could.
“To apply this, that means that to be a good man I would have to avoid ever being displeased.”
It may be enough, wolverine, that you know your displeasure has disproportionate power.
I worked for a punative, overbearing company once where employees were screamed at, fired arbitrarily, and everybody was scared to death of losing their jobs. Not all the managers were cruel and sneaky, but the overall atmosphere of the place was like a prison camp. At some point they lost a court case and were required by their insurance company to institute an “open door” policy. Scores of memos and pep talks encouraged the workers to come forward with any complaints or ideas. Nobody believed them. Nobody came forward. Nobody.
It will be hard for you as a good man, with centuries of male supremacy and institutionalised sexism as the backdrop of your life, to win the trust of women, just a well intentioned white people can’t be completely trusted by people of colour. Commumicating that you “get it” helps, and you seem to have that skill.
What I said in my comment to keres applies: “I learn from you, and I appreciate your input.”
I had not considered that my displeasure, however benignly displayed, could have a big impact on those around me. I just don’t see myself as exceptionally powerful or influencial. I need to take a closer look at that, at least in family life, where perhaps I am somewhat influential. Thinking about it, perhaps in all parts of my life. You ladies help open my eyes to things I had not considered. The better man I can be, the better my children will turn out, I hope and believe. Only over the generations can we hope to stamp out inequality of all stripes. That is where I hope to make my biggest contribution–through my children.
WW,
I was stung by Keres’s tone too, but I don’t disagree with it. I understand it. That my birth as a male is accidental does not remove me from the responsibility as a man of doing what I can to change the perceptions that men have. Even though I consider myself a good guy, the fact remains that I can walk into a room, be as passive as possible, and yet, just for the sheer fact that I’m a man, bigger, more powerful physically, and don’t immediatly announce my intentions because I’m quiet, I intimidate women, and some men, just by being there at all. I don’t mean to. I wish it weren’t so, but it is. Is that fair? Nope. But it’s real. And that’s on the assumption that I’ve never done anything to project that intimidation. I have. In a million subtle ways. In fact there’s a part of me that gets comfort from knowing that I have the ability to intimidate people. Not nescesarrily women of course, but men. And that grew out of a childhood that was full of bullying and power trips that I had to endure from other guys. For a long time I thought i was fortunate to grow up to be a bigger man and that I had the ability through my presence to intimidate people because it kept me safer. But the truth is that projecting power hurts as much or more than it protects.
Keres and all the other women here have had to deal with lifetimes of fear, just by accident of thier birth. Me feeling uncomfortable at how they express that fear and anger, is a small price to pay for my accidental birth compared to what they’ve had to deal with.
You get it! And that’s why we keep calling you {{{superman}}}. 🙂
I couldn’t agree with you more, on all points. And all those who are oppressed in the world have every right shout all they like, in any way that they like, here at BT and everywhere else. The only point I am trying to make is that I think it could be done more productively. I want to help, but I can’t take a message like the one keres put forth out into the world and convince other males with it.
Kind of like when men (you all know where) call me a “stupid single-issue voter” and I immediately block out anything else they have to say?
I can understand that.
CG, I don’t understand the context, but I can understand your reaction. If you want people to listen to you, it is best to start out without dismissing them in some way.
I was just picking a context that many of us posting here are all too well acquainted with from our experiences at the orange place.
Ok, I get it. Never been one to travel the world of orange.
I think it has less to do with any right to express themselves the way they want to and more to do with it being far beyond the point of needing any dissection of what is the proper message and tone to express it with. It’s about violent crime and the role men play in allowing it to continue to happen. Good men like you. It’s not even a conscious role. Of course they have the right. But does anyone have the right to tell them how to tailor the message to be more productive. No offense, but it sounds like what a politician might say. Framing. The message needs by nescessity to be strong, forcefull, and relentless.
I offer only my perspective. It is perhaps of little worth. I do not, have not, questioned the right of all people to express whatever they wish in whatever way they wish. I do not agree that this subject is “far beyond the point of needing any dissection of what is the proper message” — at least, depending on what your intent is in putting the message out there in the first place.
If you wish to compartmentalize and dissect what I’m saying, that is fine. If you categorize it as framing, that is fine too. If what I’m proposing is framing, by your definition, then yes–I suggest framing the message, if you truly want to make a change. If you wish only to rant, only to inflame the passions of those who are like-minded and listening, then by all means rant. But remember, by doing so, you are preaching to the choir. Don’t expect much in the way of conversion as a result. And also remember, without converting the mind set of a greater percentage of the population, the status quo is very likely to continue.
Excellent comment superguy.
… but I could never be intimidated, ya big ol’ teddy bear 😉
So many other posters have made the pertinent points that I won’t rehash them.
Wolverine, what you do with what I have to offer is your choice. I’m not trying to “convert” anyone. I am however, offering up my raw truth to anyone who can find resonance in it, or use for it.
One of the most egregous aspects of heirarchy is that the onus of changing the system always falls on the oppressed. This shits me to no end. Not only do the oppressed have to live with oppression and the HUGE amounts of energy, both physical and emotional, that sucks out of us, we have to then “engage,” in just the “right” voice, our oppressors – to try and convince them, in a language that denys us our realities, that they should be aware of a system that rewards them for being dense.
I’m white, and I have had the great good fortune of being challenged on the things I took for granted as a white person. It was never easy for women of color to tell me what they did, and it was never easy for me to hear. I always had a retort, how I didn’t really mean to take advantage of my whiteness. It took me years to assimilate these lessons, and the “ah ha” moment came far too late for me to find these women and thank them for their courage in confronting me.
As a white woman, I have also been effusively thanked by people of color, for being the one white willing to shut down other whites so that they can be heard. This also makes me uncomfortable, because all I did was what should be done – listen, with repect, to something that my own life did not/does not prepare me to understand. In those situations, I have learned how important it is that I take that lack of understanding upon myself – and not grill, not endlessly challenge, those whose realities are intentionally excluded from the dominant discourse. All oppressed people get are challenges to their truths, and I will not add to that chorus that silences us.
This does not preclude discourse. It opens the door to it. First, there are huge numbers of books, and the internet forgodssake, that allow me to seek answers to intricacies of racism, sexism, heterosexism, ageism, ableism, etc. And thus prepared, I have entered into many discussions with many different people on the very political, and very personal, topic of identity.
You should have written this diary, keres.
I agree with you completely. It is the rejection of hierarchy and privilege that will release women from subjugation and free men to be fully human, too.
But it is a fearful prospect for them. Gender-traitor men risk terrible punishment for betraying their class.
Actually, I’m glad you wrote the diary. I’ve been trying to put together a comment to the original diary, but I’m having a hard time not making it too personal. My wife doesn’t appreciate me including her in my posts here, and I’m trying to respect that.
I think that a less combative approach is better, as evidenced by my comment above. You’ve given me much to consider, and it was well said. I learn from everyone here–but as with most people, I learn more when the teacher isn’t trying to beat me into submission.
Not trying to beat you.
Just speaking the unspoken from out of the silence.
The “beating” reference wasn’t directed to you or your post. I loved the post, though I find it so disturbing–a little of it is just so close to home for me, and I don’t want to believe that it could be.
I think you did a great job of putting the info out there without male-bashing. You’ve given me much to consider, and I appreciate it greatly.
from a man. It is quite rare that I get to hear anything like this especially where I live, and it does give me something to think about. Thank you.
I hope no one here knows what that means.
I think I understand what you are saying Susan, particularly having sat through a session on “what we can safely teach children about sex without stepping on religious toes”. It boiled down to anatomy of missionary-style sex, (virtually all from the perspective of a male who might well have been carved from a log ) along with a description of fertilization that sounded like it came from a high school botany lesson.
It’s how the subtext was presented that was most disturbing: sex as a yes/no or “true/false” question. Not a conversation, an interaction, a dance, a natural part of many things together, or something that’s open rather than closed, even if very private.
It is powerful stuff, but without that conversation, all the power pulls in one direction, I think.
Oh, I remember the whole Mirbel Morgan saran wrap crap!
And, yes, the cognative dissonance of simultaneously teaching children Obediance to Authority AND Don’t Take Candy From Strangers is a dizzying dance. Do what adults tell you to do, but not this stuff that we really don’t want to talk about.
Thanks for this diary, Susan. During our recent diary series about rape I stopped myself from comment because I know it can’t possibly count if you are lying naked in a shared bed. I always wrote it off as my own youthful stupidity.
More and more, it looks like power and dominance are what it’s all about.
Did you feel violated ?
You are right, of course. Even the definition of rape comes from a position of power and dominance.
Whew. Where to start?
Imbalance of power. Isn’t that where most problems begin? When any group has power over another, it is always the group who has the power who is the least motivated/willing/able, to understand how this disempowers/harms the other group, and thus,the whole?
Everyone who is alive now inherited the patriarchal power stucture, and has had gender programming deeply imbedded from birth on. How can we know we are operating from imbedded societal programming, men or women, until we are ready to admit the possibility that we are?
Until then, the imbalance rules. I learned how to “have sex” very early on, long before I wanted to. But I did not learn what “making love” meant. until I was over 40, and then I learned it from another woman.
That good man I was married to loved me wholly, and I loved him. But we never made love; we just had sex. Orgasms were something he enjoyed, and I knew nothing about. Neither of us knew there was any other way. In his long miserable process of dying, the loss of function that destroyed him more than any other, including loss of his sight and ability to earn a living, was when he lost the ability to have an erection. He had been that programmed to equate his “manhood”, with the function of one small part of his anatomy. For me, it was only after that, I could feel truly and safetly physcially intimate with him: but to him, it meant he was “no longer a man”. This is what we do, to men as well as to women.
But as long as men are bigger, stronger, and in charge of most of the power in a society, and until enough men become awakened and ready to smell the coffee, and strip off their own share of the patriarchal delusions, the stats Susan shared above are not going to change.
From years of doing self empowerment workshops with women, I know for a fact that most of the same issues I faced in my younger years, are still being lived with by a vast number of todays heterosexual women. Women who stll end up wondering what is wrong with “them” because, after all, now they “have it all” (in these liberated times.)
So why are they marketing thong underwear to 8 year olds? Who convinced so many young women of today that flaunting naked breasts and bodies on TV and video is poof of their sexual “liberation?” And why is almost every other ad on TV for Cialis or Viagra? Who really benefits from all of this dehumanizing of human sexuality in general, and sexual objectifcation of women? It’s sure as hell not women. And past the feeting pleasure of plentiful orgasms, not men either.
Follow the money, folks. Follow the power to it’s sources, to those who want to preserve the status quo, or even roll us all back to the 50’s. To those who worship the patriarchy. The rich white male elite.
(Including the ones us “womens studies types” are being ostracized for not supporting “for the greater good of the party”)
The level of sheer, abject and CHOSEN ignorance inherant in asking us to do this is literally mind boggling and is, IMO , a sterling example of the effectiveness of patriatrchal programming.
It’s so much more than “our country” we need to take back. We ALL need to take back our MINDS!
Susan, you said little here to tell us what you are personally going through. Whatever it is, know for sure you are not alone. You are standing in the center of a circle of powerfully good woman and good men, on whom you can safety lean. I applaud the courage it took to write this diary, in fac, here’s a standing ovation.
Thank you, scribe. Your diary was inspirational.
My personal life is fine. I am safe and happy on an individual basis.
It is the years of struggle, of explaining the same things over and over and over in the face of a partiarchy that is so persistantly invasive and pervasive. People like you and I point at it, hissing, “There, there it is,” and it disappears, and whose who benefit from it most shrug and go about their business.
I am STILL ANGRY about the pie wars; not just the insults and dismissiveness, but, as you say, “being ostracized for not supporting “for the greater good of the party”)”.
Thank you for this very powerful diary, Susan.
There’s so much in it to respond to, but I’ll try to stick to a few points.
…how many nights can she say no before she’d better say yes, and simulate the enthusiasm to go with it? How much inconvenient honesty will he tolerate? If she loves her husband, and doesn’t want to hurt his feelings, “yes” is easier…
Several of my partners have worked as volunteers in rape crisis collectives where they termed this ‘duty sex’. I’ve talked with two partners about ‘duty sex’ in our relationships. We found it really really hard to deal with the problem. Both partners have been/were prepared at times to say “I really don’t feel like it now”, but I’ve felt at other times they might be following the path of least resistance. The really difficult times (for me, anyway) have been when I query this and I’m told something like “I don’t mind/no I’m OK”, which seems to lack enthusiasm but isn’t a no.
So do I (figuratively) withdraw at that point or not? Sometimes just cuddling a partner has been the right thing to do, but occasionally I’m asked “why don’t you want to make love with me?” And I admit that sometimes we’ve gone ahead even though I thought she didn’t mean what she said.
After 14 years living with my current partner it would be reasonable to say the initial passion has dimmed a little. What tends to make me really uncomfortable is when my partner ‘schedules’ sex after realising we haven’t made love for some time. I feel as though it’s almost another thing on the list of many things she has to fit into her busy and exhausting schedule. Correction: what I guess I’m really saying is it can make me feel like I am something she has to program into her diary. And I also feel like it’s duty sex for her. Where’s the spontaneity and passion? Perhaps when our daughters grow up and leave home… [I should say the relationship is not like this all the time!]
I think we have to acknowledge that the complexities of intimate relationships are such that they’ll never avoid hiccups.
This comment is not meant to detract from the overall point made by several women about the inherent power imbalance in female-male relations. I guess my basic point is that it isn’t simple even if you’re both conscious of the issues. Discussions with lesbian friends suggest that power imbalances which complicate sex can exist within their relationships, too.
I guess my basic point is that it isn’t simple even if you’re both conscious of the issues. Discussions with lesbian friends suggest that power imbalances which complicate sex can exist within their relationships, too.
I agree, I’ve seen the same issues come up over and over in lesbian relationships, whether ones I’ve been in or those of my close friends where I’ve been granted access to details about their intimate spaces.
<<“Discussions with lesbian friends suggest that power imbalances which complicate sex can exist within their relationships, too.”<<
They sure can! I was so disappointed after I came out and discovered there was no nirvana to be had in same sex partnerships, in terms of sexual issues, either. Which makes we even more convinced that there is a larger issue going on, in addition to the power imbalance between genders.
Sexual expression is a normal, natural “gift” that seems to have become so loaded down with crappy baggage it’s been made into some kind of weapon we use against each other, or some gaping canyon between us that we can only be traversed on tightropes.
For me to read a comment such as yours, cranberra, makes me grin all over, to hear of a couple who actually can talk together openly about this stuff , and both be aware of all of this.
AS for sexual passion and spontaneity cooling, of course it does for many, of not most of us, with the years and our passage through life stages.
But those are only surface expressions of “one” way for two people to show thier love. I think as love deepens and matures, the ways in which we show it do too, and there are so many ways to share love, and sex, in addition to the passionate, spontaneous way.
What’s wrong with slow, relaxed, gentle sex? Or just a long delicious making out, without any focus on “orgasm” at all?! (My gawd, one would think that one little moment, “the BIG O,” was all their WAS to making love! (It took a pretty talented woman to teach me that one. Hell, who knew?!)
And is planned sex always “duty sex”, or could it also be a sign that two busy people, having passed the “spontaneous passion” phase of things, , simply care enough about nurturing this aspect of their bonding to make time for it?
Youthful ways of loving and having “great sex” are really NOT the “only” way to have both! If the love is real, sometimes it’s best to just off load the crappy baggage ,and let IT lead you both down it’s own unique pathway.
“We know that over forty percent of girls have been molested before they were eighteen.”
“Less that 8% of American women surveyed were able to say that they had never been raped, never fought off an attempted rape, never been grabbed and groped, never been seriously threatened with physical or economic harm if they didn’t put out.”
Could you please provide some citations for these claims?
Of course I can, but I’m much more interested to know if you are asking because you doubt the prevalance of sexual abuse. The use of the word “claims” is disturbing. Do you think I made it up ?
reference: “Feminisim Unmodified” Catharine MacKinnon.
Hello,
I looked up the text in google scholar and on amazon. “Feminism Unmodified” is a book comprising a series of lectures Ms. MacKinnon gave between 1988 and 1990 or so. The text is unavailable online, unfortunately. Amazon.com does sell the book, however.
The problem I have with just listing the title to a book and author is that this does not substantiate the claim. I’d be much more willing to accept that “40% of underage girls have been molested before age 18” or “8% of woman had never been raped, molested, or fought off an attempted rape (etc)” if I knew what questions were used in each survey, the total number of respondents, and the statistical methods used to reach these conclusions.
So – yes, I am skeptical of these specific claims. However, thank you for the title. The next time I’m at the library I’ll take a look at the book.
I am a little surprised that the number is only 40%, but of course it depends on what is meant by “molested.” Almost every single girl and grown woman I have ever broached the subject with has been molested, or at the very least had to physically fend off unwanted advances by everyone from uncles to adolescent boys to blind dates to strangers at a nightclub.
That statement gets to the heart of term definitions, data collection, and methodology. Without knowing these, which would be in whatever published study was referenced by the original author, it’s impossible to judge the accuracy of these assertions.
But I find it highly telling that “molested” according to your list includes everything from physical assault/battery to “unwanted advances” in a nightclub. I don’t know what “unwanted advances” means in this context. Does one speaking with a stranger and offering a drink represent potential “molestation”? Is leering at a scantily clad woman “molestation”? Or is the term strictly limited to unwanted physical overtures?
Understanding the envelope — or range of behavior — assumed to be “molestation” within this context would help me better form an opinion.
Thank,
–M
I meant ‘physical’ advances, as stated in my remark.
Did the woman feel violated ?
This sound suspiciously like a demand that we prove it hurts, maynard. I can dig up each individual study if you like, but then would you need to personally re-interview the respondents?
Why don’t you want to believe that women are hurt when we say we are hurt. WE ARE HURT, MAYNARD. One of us, two of us, millions of us. WE ARE HURT.
We are hurt by battering and rape and incest and pornagraphy that depicts our battering and rape and incest and says that we like it.
Hello. My questions are not intended to hurt. They are simply questions. However, I find a deep irony in the relationship between your question “Why don’t you want to believe that women are hurt when we say we are hurt.” compared to “When was the last time you beat your wife?” Both presuppose an action (or intent) embedded within the question itself that cannot be refuted by answering the question. It is inherently an unfair question. The irony is – of course – obvious.
I will respond by saying that I do not doubt that you feel pain, nor anyone else who claims so. To me the question is not: “does the author of this diary feel pain?”, but: “what facts are available and based upon those facts what is the appropriate public policy to respond to those facts?” Ultimately, politics comes down to a debate over how to shape policy and law. And, unfortunately, that you do hurt is not a basis for determining policy.
I would like to ask, in all seriousness: what is the appropriate public response to the prevalence of rape? Let’s assume that your numbers are correct – that 40% of all women eighteen and under have been raped; that only 8% of American women surveyed state never to have been “…raped, never fought off an attempted rape, never been grabbed and groped, never been seriously threatened with physical or economic harm if they didn’t put out.”
As an example, I live in Massachusetts. Chapter 265: Section 22. Rape, generally; weapons; punishment; eligibility for furlough, education, training or employment programs covers the legal definition of rape within my State. It generally covers forced or coercive sexual intercourse, there are other laws which deal with sexual harassment or child endangerment / pedophilia. So – clearly – rape is illegal. Yet many still feel stigmatized by having been raped, or having to publicly charge an assailant with rape, so the crime is generally believed to be under-reported. Given these facts, what policy measures could be enacted to either reduce the incidence or rape or increase the likelihood of conviction for those who have raped?
That — to me — is the important question. Though, I don’t have an answer. Things get very complicated once laws and policy get enacted which affect entire populations. Some Muslim countries attempt to resolve the problem by segregating women and forcing them to cover their bodies and faces. In Iran they recently executed a sixteen year old girl for crimes against chastity. The flip side to this are certain university and corporate sexual harassment policies which demand that both men and women verbally “ask for permission” at each step of the courtship process to prevent the possibility of sexual harassment or rape.
Do these policies reduce the incidence of rape? If so, by how much? And is their formality and rigidity worth the increased safety? This is very similar to the same questions we ask ourselves about airline safety vs. privacy rights in the face of terrorism.
There is no easy answer. But I will gladly argue against extreme responses. I would prefer to avoid living under Shar’ia Law, just as I would prefer that university and corporate bylaws not interfere with the private sex lives of staff and students.
Best,
–M
Your questions did not hurt me.
I’m not talking about feeling miffed, or wounded sensabilities.
We can no more lock up all the rapists than we can lock up all the speeders. Laws and “policies” have been of little help to women.
But you can do something. You can change attitudes.
Everytime you are with other men, and one of them jokes about using or hurting women, stand up to him. Call him out. At every crude joke that demeans women, let the teller know that you don’t find it funny. When commercials or television shows treat women like things meant for fucking, point it out and express disapproval.
Women need the support of good men because misogynists don’t care what women say or feel. They will care what you say, however, because you are a man, and they’ll value your opinion. I’ll bet that you see sexism every day, and we’re counting on the partnership of good men to challenge it, one man at a time.
“Rape is bad/ incest is bad/ battering is bad” should be a much easier sell in moral terms than changing public perception on drinking and driving, but I don’t think legislation is the answer. I think it will take individual commitment to social justice.
Well, we disagree: On the worthiness of a uniform code of laws, evidentiary rules, and fair court procedure as a solution to social ills; the bifurcation of “good” and “bad” men based on tenuous definitions of “crude”, “demean” and “sexism” in behavior; and finally the viability of asking a population of men to change other men through words.
Good luck,
–M
Of course we disagree.
The laws and rules and procedures you admire have been built up over the centuries by men and for men, and they have not protected women from torture and death at the hands of men. It is hardly surprising that they’re fine with you, but not so much for me.
I’m with you on this one, susanw. You can’t legislate to force social & political change. We’re talking about something so ingrained that ‘it’ keeps happening no matter how much you tighten the law.
I’ve posted links to statistics on sexual assault on BT before (during the rape survivor diary series) – they involved different definitions and so had different (but high) results. I’ll try to find these later and post them here for Maynard. But the real issue is not about proving the stats – as you observed so incisively, the real isue is believing that women are hurt when they say they are hurt.
Referring to your previous comment: unfortunately I feel that I lack the courage to challenge other men as often as I should. I too often fail to comment on offensive remarks, or just walk away. It is VERY hard as another man to stand up to a group of men all chortling away at their own cleverness and power when you have to keep working with them or have some sort of community connection not of your own making and which you can’t escape. At least I NEVER laugh at oppressive jokes – whether subjugating women, homophobic or racist.
You are a hero in my book. I know what I’m asking of men. It’s more than hard, it’s dangerous. Other men will tear you to pieces for questioning their entitlements and advantages. They will call you a faggot and cut you out of the herd. Push hard enough and some will kill you. We’ve all heard of men in combat who refuse to go along with atrocities. That is what I’m asking men to do, and I know that it puts them at as great or greater risk than women are now.
Thank you.
You are too kind. It is my obligation as a son, brother, partner, father and friend of women to stand with them. I am not perfect. I frighten my daughters when I get angry and shout at them. I have horrible verbal fights with my partner. It is very, very hard to shake off the patterns of behaviour I learnt in my own childhood.
I am surprised too, SN. Growing up in the 40’s and 50’s, in my ultra religious, church-going neighborhood, it was very hard to find any young girl who hadn’t had at the very least inappropriate touching by an adult male member of her family, or a neighbor or some guy. . .by age 10, all in my group of friends and classmates had been “forced” to experience it.
One thing that I am very confused about. Why is it sexual asault, abuse, with penetration, when you are a little girl and RAPE when you are 12, 14, 16, and older? Isn’t rape, rape? Even if it is by daddy, uncle, step-brother, cousin, grandpa, next door neighbor, elders of the church, church member you baby-sit for? Or some stranger?? When is it not rape and when is it rape?? If the little 3, 4, 5 or 6 year old doesn’t fight back (doesn’t fight back??) against that male family member, does that mean it is not rape?
Very confusing all these terms we use. If we could get an honest accounting of these things, I wouldn’t be surprised if it wasn’t 80%, not 40%. Too many women can’t allow themselves to tell the truth about this, especially to “shame” the male family member.
Fear and Intimidation works pretty well I would say.
I wish there were any easy way to pull up all the rape diaries (mentioned upthread) so you could see just how many women here have been raped or molested. I know alot of men were surprised by what they read about what it’s ike to live as an ‘object of prey’, and how prevalent rape really is.
Hi CabinGirl,
unfortunately, while a series of rape diaries (here or elsewhere) may be heartrenching to read and offer an emotional outlet for the authors and comment writers, it would not help confirm the two claims made by the diarist here.
I’m simply asking for an academic cite (or even published journalism) because I find the numbers difficult to accept. However, it’s possible that the numbers are true; the book she cites does contain the assertion she claims, and the underlying studies used by the books author show these numbers to be correct (or at least accurate within the confines of the published study). I don’t know. shrug
Cheers,
–M
I think arguing over rape stats is usually counter-productive. Fact is, we don’t really know how common it is because it’s severely under-reported and there’s just as much systemic, institutionalized sexism in the criminal justice arena as there is in the society at large. I mean, it was still legal for a man to rape his wife in many states until very recently, and I’m pretty sure that in several states there are still exceptions to the rape rules for spouses, and that men still get lesser sentences for raping their wives than for raping strangers. Doesn’t that sound batshit insane? It’s true, though.
I’m neither arguing nor debating. I’m asking.
Um, I didn’t imply you were arguing. I merely stated an opinion on the matter. Chill.
FWIW, some of those diaries have links to the published statistics, and they were consistent with what is reported above.
I have a list I kept at the time. If you think it is appropriate to post it, I will do so. One could also use the search feature and find them. If you search for diaries containing the word rape and click the search archives button, most of the diaries in question can be found between results number 100 and 180.
According to the FBI crime statistics page on rape:
Those are reported rapes – a small fraction of those that occur. As you know, rape victims are reluctant to come forward because of how they are treated in the court system and by people who doubt they were raped or wonder if they asked for it or wonder how tight their blouse was or if they were a virgin or if they were walking alone after dark…
Yes. However, the statistics cited show a declining trend in reported rapes. Further, it shows a national average of 63.5 reported rapes per 100,000 in 2004. It also breaks rape reports down into four regions of the United States, as well as in metropolitian areas.
That’s .0635% of the female population across a single year (only female victims were considered for this report).
a downward trend in reported rapes might mean fewer rapes are occuring, or it might mean fewer women are reporting them.
My point is the *vast* scale in difference between reported instances as stated by the FBI vs. claims of several orders of magnitude greater of total rapes. These are not normalized numbers, but they are so vastly different in scale that I cannot but assume one claim or the other is based on faulty logic.
I’m not inclined to think arguing over statistics is that helpful in the long run. Here’s what you should do: ask ten women you are close to if they’ve been assaulted, raped, forced into sex they didn’t want, groped, threatened, etc. Ask your mother, your sister, your friends. Then come back and discuss.
Unfortunately, that is not an effective way to run a study, nor will it allow one to derive reasonable conclusions about the state of a population. Sorry.
Well, now you’re just being insufferably argumentative. It’s hard to take you seriously.
Don’t then. You needn’t agree with me, or even consider my logic valid. Please, by all means, discredit my (admittedly off the cuff) math. However, asking ten women whom I know what their rape history is neither randomly sample nor a large enough sample to draw any reasoned conclusions from.
But it would be a very effective way to shock you into realising that the problem is far more widespread then you think. You might also try asking a random selection of 10 women you know whether any of the assaults, rapes, sex they didn’t want (including within relationships), groping, or threats of sexual violence involved the women’s relatives or ‘friends’. The answers to that should appall you. I guarantee it. It’s not stranger danger and scantily-clad women walking alone on dark streets in ‘bad’ neighbourhoods. It’s the culture.
Oh, and now I’ve been downthread and seen, perhaps you should ask those of the 10 women who say they’ve experienced these things whether or not they reported it. Then you’ll believe the difference in the stats.
I think you misunderstood my point about the variance between reported and unreported cases vs. population totals. The comparison between the 1992 assertion of ~700K rapes compared to the 2004 FBI assertion of ~100K rapes within the US, is what I used to derive a 7:1 ratio. My point is not that it is 7:1, or 10:1, or even 100:1. My point is that one would need even greater variance such that 1/3rd of the female population had been raped across the course of a lifetime. Pretty rough math on my part though. Please do debunk this factually, because I tend to fuck my math up. *shrug* Also, comparing 1992 to 2004 stats is inherently invalid. And, to top it off, neither source offered decent access to data or methodology. (IOW: all bullshit). But if you believe that both of those sites offer valid data – you can begin to tease apart and debunk the assertion of 40% or 1/3rd of all women in the US have been raped without normalizing the numbers because it would be several orders of magnitude difference.
Which in no way diminishes the heinous crime of rape. In fact, I’m pleased to see rape victims publicly assert their right to be free from crime. I would, however, dispute the method(s) to achieve this goal with what the diarist here proposes. I’d rater just see rapists locked up safely in jail. I’m also open to execution for rape/murder when DNA evidence proves beyond a doubt the rapists’ culpability.
“I would, however, dispute the method(s) to achieve this goal with what the diarist here proposes. I’d rater just see rapists locked up safely in jail. I’m also open to execution for rape/murder when DNA evidence proves beyond a doubt the rapists’ culpability.”
You make it clear that you simply did not understand the diary or its comments. DNA evidence? What if the rapist is the husband?
Look, I understand that you are opposed to rape, but you are looking at it from a scientific and quantifiable approach. Rape is a social thing. It is a manifestation of social ideas of power and sex. It can’t be quatified, enumerated, or approached with empirical science.
Rape is a social ill and because of it’s private nature, it can be better attacked through an awareness, a change in the social consciousness of sexual and social relationships. Rape is declining and it I would hazard a guess that it is precisely because women (and some men) are starting to realize they can and must talk about it. Where a woman used to be called a “slut”, now are starting to realize that it is not their fault, but that of the abuser. But, we are not done yet.
Finally, most women still cannot come forward for a wide variety of reasons. Until society accepts that rape happens all too often, we will never be able to. Laws will not change this, attitudes will.
“Look, I understand that you are opposed to rape, but you are looking at it from a scientific and quantifiable approach. Rape is a social thing. It is a manifestation of social ideas of power and sex. It can’t be quatified, enumerated, or approached with empirical science.”
I’m short on time this morning, but I wanted to say that I very much liked this comment. Particularly this portion I have excerpted. It is absolutely true that I am taking a quantifiable approach to this. As for the issue of whether rape is a social ill best resolved through the criminal justice system or social services – I don’t know. However, I do believe that policy-makers should use an analytic approach, including cost/benefit analysis, when crafting law and setting precedent.
Thank you for a truly insightful comment
–M
We wouldn’t want to spend too much money on ending rape.
Just when you think a light might have finally gone on you get requests for a cost/benefit analysis. And right there it becomes clear that any further attempt to appeal to a persons human side is a waste of time. Preventing rape could be a waste of money is what I get from that comment.
Yes. Cost/benefit analysis are extremely useful tools when considering policy ramifications across entire populations – as politicians and policy professionals are tasked to do. To ignore this tool often leads to gross policy imbalances. I point to: Shar’ia law. Welcome to an anti-rape policy that leads to outright tyranny.
Appeals to my “human side” (whatever that means) regardless. May I ask: is it time for me to respond with as much derision and snide commentary toward you as the several here have responded back in kind to me? Or shall we retain a measure of polite communication while disagreeing with one another?
Dear, dear Maynard, do you understand why so many women are deeply disturbed by the cost/benefit analysis approach ?
It is important to you whether its 30 women in 100, or 40 or 50. That is important. It is important to us, too. That is NOT why we are reponding with anger.
Some of us have been raped, most of us know women who have been raped, and all of us could be raped. (I’m not talking here about counting how many. I’m talking about how it feels to be victimized.)
Those of us who told were not believed. Most of us don’t report rape because we know we will not be believed. Many of us have been subjected to analytical questioning regarding sexual assault. This questioning, from fathers, husbands, brothers, clergy, law-enforcement officers, judges, lawyers, etc., sounds very much like, “I don’t believe you. Prove it. Prove you were raped.” Women have a terrible and very realistic fear that if they are raped the people who are supposed to help us, the people on our side, theoretically, will not not believe us, will cross question us relentlessly, looking for inconsistancies, and ultimately blame us for what happened, if it happened.
When you repeatedly demand exact figures that are impossible to pin down, what it FEELS like is the “I- don’t-believe-you-prove-it-how-many-times-did-he-shove-it-in-did-you-come?” questions that are like being raped again. That’s why the women here reacted so strongly. Every time you wanted better numbers, it felt is if you were saying, “I don’t believe you were raped.”
Sometimes the analytical approach appears cold, judgemental and distancing, even if it isn’t intended that way.
You are on a political blog and discussion forum with a focus on democratic and liberal policymaking. And you didn’t expect at least *some* replies to focus on facts, numbers, policy, and criminology?
I have been *extremely* careful to be polite and treat those who replied in anger with dispassionate fact oriented responses. I did so purposefully to avoid a flame war over this sensitive topic.
IMO: you (as the author of this diary) have brought up my name in replies to others in order to personalize this through insults. Reverse the situation and ask yourself, had I responded to you or others with that kind of snide commentary, would my account still be active? Or would I be labeled a troll and kicked off the site?
I encourage you to look inward. Rarely is righteous indignation enough to factually prove a point.
No, Maynard, I did not expect any replies to focus on facts, numbers, policy, and criminology. I was not writing about democratic and liberal policymaking. You are very good at that, and I’d appreciate any diary you may write from that perspective.
I expected the responses to be exactly what most of them were: personal reactions, with examples from their own lives, of incidents and feelings that the diary awakened. This was a diary about the attitudes inherent in patriarchal hierarchies. I expected men and women to reflect on their sexual relationships, and consider how things may not be as they appear. I expected to inspire conversations outside this blog between partners that could result in a better understanding, more meaningful trust, and deeper love. I expected some people to realize that they could not be comfortable having those conversations, and that they would ask themselves why. This is feminist politics in action.
As to the personal insult you feel, I apologize for mocking your use of the FBI Forcible Rape statistics. I realize now that you cited them in all seriousness. I thought it was a snark, and responded in kind. That was insensitive of me. I had not thought that perhaps you were unaware that the FBI’s rape assessments have been a bitter joke for many, many years among activist for women’s equality; those stats were used by the Right to “prove” that rape is rare, so we don’t need an Equal Rights Amendment. I think, because you write well, that I assumed you to be much older than you are, that you knew the red flag those numbers would send up, and therefore believed that you were using those discredited statistics to be cruel. I was wrong.
Finally, you have challenged me to “prove something”. I can tell you that I don’t know exactly how many women are raped, how many are beaten, how many children are molested. Nobody does, and nobody ever will. I am sure that you and I can agree that it’s too many. Peace, Maynard. We’re on the same side.
a city of a few million, the rape helpline rings about every 2 hours. You do the maths. How do I know? Because I presonally know several women who have volunteered to help run the service.
Your arguments about statistics raise and frankly deserve real resentment from women, because your ‘just asking’ utterly diminishes the very real pain and suffering so many have been through, are going through. You quote FBI stats for one particular form of rape – is nearly 100,000 rinky-dink FBI verified cases and whatever percentage on top of that you’re willing to believe goes unreported just not enough of a quantum for this to be a worthy discussion?
And since your’s so into statistics, I invite you to take the time to explore rape statistics globally, and also take a look at the percentage of rape convictions vs reported rapes in western countries. In the UK, it’s less than 1%; in nearly all countries it’s less than 10%. Now start a-cogitatin’ about why it might be that so many rapes go unreported (WHAT’S the point of putting yourself through the personally damaging and humiliating trial experience when you’ve got a less than 10% chance of seeing the shit who did it to you see justice?).
Am I angry. Damn right. But then I am one of those ‘unreported’ rape statistics.
I do not diminish the pain of experiencing any violent crime, but I do question factual assertions. As is appropriate in any factual discussion.
I wish you the best in your recovery,
–M
You know, there’s this scumbag of a ‘history expert’ in Australia, called Keith Windshuttle, who claims that the genocide/massacres/shitloads of killings of Aborigines didn’t happen because the british records of how many they slaughtered just don’t add up. Therefore the literally thousands of testimonies by Aboriginal Australians to the loss of their family members, whole tribes, is naturally a total fabrication.
Because oppressors are so well known for keeping careful statistics, we should only believe those. Therefore if the British only recorded they “only” killed a few thousand Aborigines, while the Aborigines ‘claim’ that several hundred thousand of their people were killed, well we know who’s “factual”. right?
And if the FBI “only” records about 100,000 narrowly defined rape instances, whereas many millions of women and children in the USA alone ‘claim’ that they have experienced rape, we all know who’s ‘factual’, right?
Do you really want to make your reputation as the same kind of disingenious idiot as Mr Windshuttle?
“Do you really want to make your reputation as the same kind of disingenious idiot as Mr Windshuttle?”
I do not know who this Keith Windshuttle is, what he claims, or what evidence he uses to back up those assertions. However, I would state emphatically, that if those claims are reasoned and backed up by fact, then: yes. Whatever those claims might be.
OMFG. We all know that rape statistics vary wildly. All of us women (and a good proportion of men here) also know that reported rapes is a piss poor statistic that doesn’t even begin to scratch the surface of sexual abuse and assault. But, in addition to all the good points being made, does it really fucking matter whether it is 1000 women or 100 women? The stat I’ve always heard is 1 in 4 women are raped at least once in their lives. 10% or 20% or 40%….it is all bad and disgraceful.
MORE IMPORTANTLY, they are only annual figures. Women live much longer than 1 year.
That’s absolutely correct; these numbers are not normalized. Though the site posts a history of reported cases going back several years. Presumably data exists going back several decades (or at least two). Assuming the variance across those decades is within a standard deviation, one could determine risk of rape across lifetime based on these cited cases.
I don’t have much time to research this, but please see the additional statistics I posted in a reply to your comment downthread.
Just wondering given the title. If not, perhaps a title change is in order. Or perhaps if any actual sexworkers/prostitutes are reading they could better inform us “what whores know about sex”?
Gee, where to start. Maybe you should read the diary.
I was a sex worker for a time in my youth.
Being prostituted and/or pornographed strips away the fantasy of sex as mutual and egalitarian, allowing sex workers to see that under patriarchy there is no whore/non-whore digital difference, but an analog continuum that varies from woman to woman only by degree.
I confess I haven’t read all the comments. Did I miss the part where you said you were a prostitute? I can’t seem to find it, but thanks for your reply. Anyway of course sex is generally all about power; dominant vs. submissive. I think you miss the fact that many relationships consist of a dominant woman and a submissive male (Barbara Bush comes to mind). I think emotional power can be equal to physical power. I think these roles, whomever plays which, can be acted out in mutually satisfying ways. I think a true egalitarian relationship, i.e., “true love” is possible, but rare.
A graffito I once saw: Feminine Protection – Get a Gun
“I think these roles, whomever plays which, can be acted out in mutually satisfying ways.”
Yes, I know you do.
That is the very problem we are discussing. We are talking about women pretending to like things they don’t like in order to get along in a world where men hold power. When we have to pretend about sex, the most intimate human activity, we become things, not people.
You say that of course, sex is all about power. You are right, in practice, it is, and that’s what’s wrong with it. Do you think that it’s some kind of playful, fake power, like a naughty game?
For women who want “true love”, accept no substitutes.
I think there are men and women who genuinely enjoy dominating others sexually, and I think there are men and women who genuinely enjoy being dominated sexually, and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that, as long as it in fact, mutual enjoyment. I don’t know, maybe I’m wrong, I’m just going by personal experience, I don’t know what else to go by.
“I think there are men and women who genuinely enjoy dominating others sexually, and I think there are men and women who genuinely enjoy being dominated sexually, and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that…”
except that really it’s got nothing to do with this discussion, because what at least I hope you are talking about is situations where in particular women have been able to choose their role and the role that power and submissiveness plays.
What this diary is about is that that vast, vast majority of women and not to mention children don’t get to choose, and the vast vast majority of men get to assume a role of domination and power in sex.
What you’re talking about has no real place in this discussion, because it is a distraction from the very fundamental fact that the reality of the world is that women and children are reoutinely sexual victims whether they want to be or not, and men as a group are the upholders of that, hard as that is to say to the good men out there.
Once we’ve sorted that out as best we can, then we can have some equal, respectful and inclusive discussions about people negotiating mutually agreeable sexual power relationships.
Do you think that it’s some kind of playful, fake power, like a naughty game?
If done right, yes. Don’t tell me, you already know what I think.
I won’t have time this morning to fully read this through and all the comments… but wanted you to know that your words… are so brave and so true on so many other diaries that my heart lept up when I saw this. I know it’s going to be another journey taken with friends. Love and affection, Janet
It is very common, when women “speak out”, on any regarding violence against women in public forums, for there to be skeptical repsonses from a certain subset of readers, usually male, who seem to approach it all from a need to first make a personal judgement as to whether what a woman is saying is credible or not. Can it be documented in a form acceptable to them, i.e, in facts and figures from a reputable source? If so, that seems to allow such reader to place some credibilty on what the woman has said. If not, they are not likely to, in my experience, and feel free then, to engage in debate style responses.
Yet this is 2006. The degree and incidents and known stastistics of of violence against women has LONG been documented by thousands of reputable sources and shared in every venue there is. To say nothing of the tons of reputable research studies in publication everywhere.
So why then, do these kinds of skeptical male readers not already know and accept this, like most informed men and women do? Where have they been so as to have missed all of this information to date? Or, did they hear it but not believe any of it? Or, is there some other reason why this information must be challenged over and over and over?
Speaking only for myself, I’ve come to the end of my willingness to “prove my reality” to any man, or woman, ever again.
It is also NOT my respnsibility or that of women in general, to “educate or convince” men of anything, so I have laid assigned that “assignment” as well.
Men are responsible for their OWN education, and are quite capable of seeking out whatever information they wish to have. PLus, almost all men have access to women in thier lives who would be quite willing to answer any questions men may have about how it is to be a woman or how life is from a womans perspective. Women who would then porbably be quite open to litenin to how life is from a male perspective also.
Which means I have little patience for hearing critiques from any man who wants to tell me how I could “improve how I approach him,” to convince” him or “get him to listen to me.” Huh? If you really want to learn, why do you need to be “convinced” to learn? Why must I pick and choose my words so as to not “turn you off”.
Just where, in the job description of womanhood, is that clause that says I have to “teach you” anything? And where is it written that women have to prove to men that their personaly reality really is “real” anyway? That’s all just CRAP!
If men really want to learn what it’s like for the other half of the population, with an intent toward understanding and working to bring the genders into better harmony, then get off your duff and GO LEARN IT! This stuff isn’t buried under the sea in old scrolls, ya know!
Same for women. If you want to better understand the men in your life, then get TO it. Read, Study. Bring it all up. Talk to them, and ask THEM how it all is for them, really. (because if you wait for them to open up and tell you, it might be awhile.)
Time to take some personal responsibility here. It’s time for men to stop waiting for women to educate them and spur them to needed action with other men where their efforts are really needed.
No, sorry, you’re wrong. Maynard is only interested in THE FBI FORCIBLE RAPE STATISTICS. We can all relax, sisters. Move along. Nothing to see here.
…well enough to discuss such matters has said she was raped, forcibly or under threat of force or of drug or drink. Moreover, more than 30 years ago, I spent a year as a volunteer counselor of court-assigned batterers (who got out of jail time for appearing at counseling). So I have no illusions that rape is a rare thing.
Moreover, I agree that men should educate men, something my feminist reeducators explained patiently to me in 1969.
Still, I think it’s important when citing statistics – like 40% – to offer a source. Otherwise, why not just large numbers, a high percentage, almost half, or some equally general term that makes the point just as well.
Why bother? Because some of us have known about rape, experienced it (I did, age 11 in “reform school”), or read about it in popular and scholarly works for decades, while other, younger people, may have just now encountered the information that susanw has presented.
Since the author of this diary has named me personally in her reply to you, I will directly reply as well. May I point out, SusanW, that I find that snide comment not conducive to rational discussion.
WRT your comment: It is one thing to expect me (or anyone else) to read and understand a cite before questioning a referenced statement of fact. It’s quite another to expect me to *verify* statements of fact within an essay (or diary).
In fact, I did go seek out factual information from a reputable source – both academic sources through google scholar and government sources. I could not find any reference to back up the claims made in this diary.
Oh the facts, I have no bone to pick one way or the other. If the risk of rape across the lifetime of a woman is near 1/2, I’d be very interested in seeing the cite.
*shrug*
rape statistics from UCSC.
1 in 3 have been raped = 33%. They have an excellent breakdown according to race and age group too.
Hope this helps.
Hello,
thank you for that link. That is a summary with some citations, but not for all claims. However, assuming it is all accurate, I note:
* ” Around the world at least I women in 3 has been beaten, coerced into sex or otherwise abused in her lifetime.”
That is worldwide and includes war zones. Is there evidence to support the claim that 1/3rd of all women in the US (or other industrialized country) suffers from such a high rate of rape?
* ” According to the National Victim Center, 683,000 women are raped each year. (1992)”
Compare that to the FBI report from 2004: 94,635 reported cases. So now we see the variance between a 1992 report indicated almost 700K incidents of rape vs. nearly 100K in 2004 reports, indicating a 7:1 discrepancy. Assuming no dramatic increases or declines across those twelve years, one can say that ~.4% of the female population risks rape in any given year.
Interesting. Is it possible then that fully 1/3rd of the female population of the United States has been raped? I think, based upon these scribbled on the napkin numbers… fortunately, no.
But if I’ve made some egregious math error (always likely), please let me know.
Best,
–M
You’re welcome to do your own research beyond the single set of numbers you’ve presented in a comment above. At this point (and based on your lack of evidence proving otherwise) I think you’re just trying to be argumentative.
Good night-
CG
Based on the series of, for lack of a better term, rape diaries here, I’d take note that not one of them indicated reporting it. At least, none that I remember. So a 7:1 ratio between rapes and reported rates seems totally realistic.
yeah. I should say that I derived that ~.4% risk per year by comparing the claimed per year risk reported on the FBI site (63.5 per 100000) with the assumed 7:1 ratio comparing official reports to estimated rapes.
Of course, I have no idea if any of this is accurate as neither the FBI nor the previous link provided above gives more than a summary of conclusions. I’m off campus net access right now, so I can’t dig through google scholar or lexus/nexus… no way to really dig at the moment.
*sigh*
In my case, I was talked out of it. I was suffering from a severe concussion, probably still in shock… and was not really in a way to advocate for myself or really even breathe.
And so many others I know who were taken to the hospital… many are also talked out of it.
Many many more never go to hospitals and never tell.
Well I was one of the women who wrote one of the many diaries that are being speculated about. And yes mine was reported. As to how the system treated me after the report is a whole ‘nother diary.
So let’s pretend it is 1% of women, and let’s pretend that women are only 50% of the US population, that’s aprox. 140,000,000 (million) women, then we could pretend that it is only 140,000 women a year who are raped, or who file charges that they are raped. . .
What? Does that somehow make it more palatable to you Maynard? Does that somehow make it LESS important to you Maynard? Does that mean that it is something that gets entirely too much attention for the small “pretend” incidence that you perceive it to be? Does that mean that we just don’t need to read about, hear about or discuss this issue because you “deem” it is just NOT A BIG ENOUGH PROBLEM statistically?
Is it drafty in your Ivory tower there?
Will you be reaching for your clip board and checking out the statistics when it is your girlfriend, wife, sister, mother, daughter or just a good friend at work or school? I’m wondering how comforting you will be to the woman in your life that becomes one of these statistics. . . or already is.
Obviously we have not evolved one bit in the past 63 years. . .
“Now little 3 year old girl, PROVE that it was your brother in law, prove that it was your daddy, prove that it was your 18 yr old cousin. . .You are just making this up. We don’t believe you. And we won’t believe you when you tell us when you’re 7 that it is your 17 year old cousin either; or that it was the Pastor’s grown son that you were baby sitting for when you were 11. And we know FOR SURE that your Grandfather, a fine upstanding citizen would never touch you on your private parts. You are just making this up. No We don’t believe you. And we don’t believe your girlfriends and your sisters and your classmates, and all the women you know that tell you that this has happened to them too. Why, everyone knows that women just make this shit up to cause trouble for some poor innocent man. It must be that they fantacize so much about this rape stuff because that’s what they really want, eh?”
I have heard this song and dance since 1943, again in 1947, some more in the 1950’s, more and more of it in the 1960’s, 1970’s, 1980’s, 1990’s, and now the 2000’s. . .We have not made any headway with this issue in all the years I have been alive!
Wow. . .stunning to understand it that way.
Thank you for this comment.
I was called a whore by the D.A. you know…the guy that was supposed to be on my side? My own maternal grandmother called me a liar and a whore to my face. I was too scared to testify. I was only 10 years old. He only got 9 months in prison.
Oh my god. I don’t know what to say.
Don’t worry you aren’t alone on that front. 😉
I am 27 now and he has a record for the rest of life. He has to report once a year where he lives for the rest of his life.
That’s just how things work out down south I guess. It was one huge circle of denial when it all came out at first. He was an upstanding member of the community, a mason even heh. I guess I should continue that diary sometime. 😉
Thank you for being so open about this, C or D. I’m glad that you had the strength to overcome the demands for silence, and also that you have become such a powerful person. You know it wasn’t your fault. Every single woman here knows that as well, and most of us men.
Well I have to say that 4 years of therapy plus knowing tens of girls and boys that had gone through the same thing helped. Not to mention a wonderful husband.
Most people think I am odd, but I have made it a practice to tell people that I meet that I was sexually abused. It is one of the first or the second things out of my mouth when I meet someone new. I go ahead and get that out of the way so that they can make a choice of whether or not they choose to associate with me. I have been burned too many times. It gets easier to say as time goes on, but I have to say that there’s not a day that goes by when I don’t think about it. Every time I have sex I think about it. It takes a lifetime to heal, and I am nowhere near done yet. 😉
And let me thank you in return. If there were more men out there like you and Booman and wolverine writer…this world would be a much better place.
so that they can make a choice of whether or not they choose to associate with me
Cake, I’m curious that you do this even though I presume you’re out of the immediate environment of the family and the community where this happened. Have you found that many other people react negatively if they later ‘discover’ you are a survivor of sexual assault? Or is it that you feel it is a defining part of your experience and personality and that if they can’t relate to it, it will make future interaction pointless? I hope I’m not probing too far…
No don’t worry, you aren’t probing to far. It comes from my experience of exile so to speak. I had family and friends who had known me since I was knee-high completely turn their backs on me. I always bring out in the open because of the fact that there are people out there who do react negatively whenever that particular topic was brought up. (still not sure why they do but they do.) Not to mention the fact that it does define who I am. I feel that to know me people must know what I went through. To be honest, I tell people because it does help me in a small way, it’s almost theraputic. I think it’s my small way of making things up to myself. Because I DIDN’T tell.
Lots of people can’t relate to it and that’s ok. But if I tell them my story maybe they will keep their eyes open. I talk about it because there are thousands who can’t. I hope that rambling makes sense. 😉
It does. {{{{{{{Cake or Death}}}}}}}
{{{canberra}}} right back atcha 😉
I do a similar thing with my depression. I’m so dang proud of myself for living through it, and so pissed that no one (including myself) recognized the signs and made sure I got timely help – that now I almost shout it from the rooftops…yes I was depressed, severely paralyzingly depressed. And I made it.
So I understand that what happened to you made you who you are now.
Hooray that you made it! 😉 It’s no small feat at all!
I, and every other prepubescent girl in my neighborhood, was molested regularly for years by a teenage boy in our hood. We never talked about it, other than say yeah, he touched me too. In fact, I completely put it out of memory until I was old enough to deal with it. I spent many an afternoon in his basement learning than women spread their legs if they wanted men to like them. He was a cool teenager, and he liked me if I did that. I was just 6 or 7 years old… All my friends did it… That was what girls did. We never told anyone. Somehow we knew it was wrong and bad, but this was how guys liked girls and if we wanted to grow up, then we had to spread our legs, and we all wanted to grow up fast.
That feeling followed me for much of my adult life. I know I am not alone.
No. you are not alone.
{{Kamakhya}}
Oh, Cake.
The word must be really loaded for you.
You broke the rules; you told. You weren’t loyal; you exposed the family.
So many of the women I know who were abused as children by family members were discovered by a third party. They didn’t tell; they were too afraid, too ashamed, too sure that no one would help them, to tell. They were found out, it all came out, and they were STILL blamed by the family for ruining everything: “See what you’ve done!”
There are more stories than we can ever count in women’s silence.
Actually my lil sister was the brave one, not me. She told our mutual friend, who then told her mother, who then told the guidance counselor at school. It came out in a really bad way. We were ostracized by the entire community. The ENTIRE community. My own extended family members convinced my mother that we were lying whores. We were tape recorded after being locked in a bedroom for a week just to see if we were lying. I literally could go on and on…
That’s the reason why you don’t see rape or molestation cases reported as much as they should be.
sigh
I know. I so know your experience. I was just a “filthy little child” that obviously couldn’t keep my own hands off myself and so clever at 3 that I could figure to blame it on my 20 yr old brother in law. Bad little girl that would make up such nasty things.
So sorry for your experience, and so very sorry that it still is going on, still happening to children and little girl children still being blamed for it.
I am surprised that he got any time in prison. They must be very progressive in the South. Here in Idaho we just slap them on the hands and say don’t do that, if you really did do that, which who knows that dna stuff can’t always be right.
It is a very strange society we live in.
Hugs and loves, Cake
Shirl
I really wish they were progessive in the south. To be honest I don’t know how he got jail time either. I do know that as soon as his Lodge found out (Mason) they booted him to the curb in a instant. I know that I have blocked out a whole lot of that particular time-frame. Just too painful.
I am so sorry that you were subjected to the same treatment. It’s not fucking right that children are treated this way. Maybe someday I will do diary on the boys side of things. When I was in therapy, We had a whole lot of boys come in and tell us what happened to them. My story really pales in comparison to theirs.
Oh damn. I have known many men who were abused too and I think it is worse for them. As much as I grieve for the women who are abused, I worry more for the men. They don’t have the same networks and openess that women now have. For them, it is a shame that still can never be spoken. That is wrong and it will change, of that I must be optomistic.
It’s no better or worse for anyone. We’re all people. We’re all victims. We all need each other equally.
Ok, I agree, it is no better or worse, but women are finding these places where that can say, “Hey I was raped and this is what I felt.” I have yet to see a diary at BooMan that was the equivalent for male victims of rape and abuse. Men keep it all inside. It is even harder for a man to admit let alone prosecute a rape than a woman. Men are supposed to be the rapists, not the victims. I’ve known several men who were raped and/or abused, and none of them could have talked about it freely in a room or cyberroom of peers. The social expectations of manliness and all that bullshit make it vitually impossible for a man to confess to being a victim. It is sad and it makes it practically impossible for a man to come to terms with their feelings and experiences.
If there was no other reason for me to love you, if there was no other post or words that would have let me know a part of you… than this is all I would need to know of your heart to realize that you are a wonderful, strong, caring person I want to be around.
Thank you! You spoke for so many…
Thank you so much, Damnit! You know how dearly I love you, and there are so many reasons I love you, it would be a diary all its own. 🙂
I hope I will always be in a place to speak for those who feel or think they can’t speak for themselves. It is for sure I have a hard time keeping my mouth shut.
Loves and hugs, Janet
Shirl
Does that somehow make it more palatable to you Maynard? Does that somehow make it LESS important to you Maynard?
Absolutely not. I would encourage you to look through my entire posting history WRT this diary. Nowhere have I argued that violent crime of any sort should be diminished in importance in the public sphere (including rape). In fact, I only question: per capita risk compared with appropriate legal and public policy responses to mitigate that risk.
Should the crime of rape be wiped off the face of the earth, I (like everyone here I assume) would cheer this grand occasion. Until then, criminal sanction would appear the only deterrent available to policymakers.
>>Should the crime of rape be wiped off the face of the earth, I (like everyone here I assume) would cheer this grand occasion. Until then, criminal sanction would appear the only deterrent available to policymakers.<<
As long as men believe this, the only available deterrent lies in the hands of someone ELSE, (ie the policy makers and a criminal justice system designed and controlled by men) women are literally screwed every which way.
Nobody is likely to come along to wipe rape off the face of the earth so you and I can sit back and cheer, Maynard. And it is more than painfully proven that women cannot fix this all by ourselves, either.
So, back to YOU, Maynard. As a man who would like to see rape wiped opff the face of the earth, how are you contributing to this effort?
“As long as men believe this, the only available deterrent lies in the hands of someone ELSE[…]”
What am I doing to prevent or stop rape? Absolutely nothing. I spend my time working full time, going to school part time, and running a two-fam house. This is not out of disinterest in violent crime and criminology (I am considering law school), but because I am simply too busy. Hell, I don’t even have time to date. How lame is that?
However, your point that men leave this to “someone else” is worthy of response. Because society must choose between direct response to crime by citizens vs. an officially sanctioned judicial system. The judicial system is grossly inaccurate. How many convicted murderers have we seen released due to DNA evidence exonerating them? Yet the alternative, vigilantism, seems to me worse. Note that I do not argue that the diarist here promotes vigilantism (She has instead argued that I (and other men) should persuade men verbally that certain behavior is unacceptable). But, IMO: all of this leads to vigilantism as the ultimate solution. It’s a terrible one.
IOW: The perfect is the enemy of the good.
<< But, IMO: all of this leads to vigilantism as the ultimate solution. It’s a terrible one. <<
Maynard, I will challenge this. You are making this into a black and white choice; the system must handle it or society may go vigilante. Note please, that leaves you not having to do anything, because of your busy life.
There are many of shades of grey between black and white, including the use of peer pressure and modeling of new behaviors. It takes all of a second or so to say “I don’t think that’s funny” to the guy next to you telling a filty joke about women, to say nothing about grabbing handy chances to teach nephews or neigbor kids more about repsecting women, and learning how to really listen to women “with the intent to understand” what they are saying, rather than to critique what they are saying. Oh yes, Maynard, there is SO much you can do, no matter how busy our life is. So much all men can do, if the will to do it is present.
For a short time there were wonderful public service spots on television intended to raise consciousness toward violence against women. One featured a child witnessing his mother’s battering from an upstairs landing. The other I remember showed a couple in bed about to go to sleep overhearing an argument and beating in the next apartment. The actors’ voices were terrifyingly authentic; the comptempt, the hatred, the rage, and the sense he conveyed of the inevitability of a beating, and her abject terror and complete powerlessness must have wrung the hearts of every abuse survivor who heard it.
These were very uncomfortable, very disturbing vignettes to watch. Where are they now ?
We need more and more and more of them.
“Deliverance” started lots of conversations in kitchens and around watercoolers. “Law and Order, Special Victims Unit” may be helping to bring the problem into public discourse. Unfortunately, much of what passes for entertainment glorifies male power over, and contempt for, women. (And yes, those damned pie ads; they were part of the glue that holds the subjugation of women together, not a trivial bit of boys-will-be-boys fun.) It is that attitude of socially acceptable male supremecism that peer disapproval can, and must, change if women are ever to be free in the same sense that men are.
Yes, I’d like Maynard and all the men who hate violence against women to speak up once in a while, so that the tacit approval, invisibility and silence that surround abuse of women can’t continue to shroud us in denial.
Do it for your mother, your sister, your daughter.
Some of us have no more time.
And here we are in a microcosm, doing it all again. Arguing over the body count.
We are raped because we are women.
We are women because we are raped.
If we don’t tell, it never happened.
If we tell we will not be believed.
Being a raped woman damages your credibility.
Linda Marchiano was beaten, raped, held prisoner, drugged and terrorized during the making of “Deep Throat”. She was expected to act as if she liked it.
She did a good job to avoid more punishment and the prospect of take two. When she told the truth, that she’d been forced to act like a whore who loves abuse, she was not believed because she’s a whore who loves abuse.
Shirl, that’s what about knocked me off my feet during the pie wars. I could not believe my eyes, that in 2006, a progressive political site would condone the kind of absolutely viscious pact-mentality-driven verbal “gang bang” that went on there. It truly felt like a physical assault, and I know for a fact that it caused a LOT of women some pretty damned serious flashbacks. And why? Because we dared to object to sexist advertising. Next, those of us who continued to “misbehave” by refusing to obey and back the candidates the men chose, were shown the door. In 2006. On a progressive website. It literally made me half sick for several days. ( thought we’d come further than that. All that fighting, over all of those years, all that blood, sweat and teears…for what?
I’m not sure how I would have managed, had I not fallen into a pond full of good frog men and women.
pretty shocking to imagine, to see, to realize that not a damn thing has happened since 1940 (and long before) regarding women’s place in the world. It makes me shake my head a lot. AT times like that I want to go back to my “world”. . .the one I came from before here. . .LOL!
And yes, we have some lovely he-frogs and she-frogs over here at the pond. Some truly lovely wonderful ones! They help us want to keep trying to make a difference, because they keep trying to make a difference.
Refusing to obey! Oh, let that be the words on my headstone: “She refused to Obey!”
Smiles and hugs
Shirl
Unacceptable statistics to be sure, but sourced from published literature.
and what she has shared here…
I’d like to say that some wonderful beings expressed support and outrage and concern in my diary regarding an attack. Men I’ve known have always been very supportive.
I don’t see that sharing our experiences and trying to come to solutions has to be an attack on anyone or proof required. I think sometimes men and sometimes women expect those who have been assaulted to be one of two things
I am neither. G-d knows I have so many reasons to be, too LOL. And I know that both sexes have so much to learn from one another and we can be each other’s best ally. I think many men are almost too afraid to reach out to rape victims because they don’t know what to say, how to help and there is also some shame perhaps that others are doing this and giving men a bad name… when actually … it’s these very souls who do reach out that speak VOLUMES for countless others and their strength and support carry so many to healing.
Both sides of this coin require understadning, healing and compassion.
Susan, I just got back from the docs for my daughter… I can not wait to begin to actually discuss the ACTUAL DIARY with you. 🙂 I absolutely adore and respect you! Thank you so much
Thank you, dear Janet. I hope your daughter is OK…..
Was just school physical stuff. My husband took our son to his school orientation thing and due to autism and special ed matters we’ll be meeting with their transition experts and autism “experts”… back on the rollercoaster ya know.
This diary, for me, is very deep and deserves absolute attention and such… but at the same time there are wounds, worry, and incredible compassion. It’s hard to concentrate on a friends passionate sharing while… you’re tracking down vaccination records, frozen pizzas and geraing up for the vigil 😀
But one of the “whore” issues… I’ve found that many have tried to label others as “whores” if they GASP.. enjoy sex with their partner. It’s the Madonna or the Whore theory… which just sucks because I’m somewhat both… and somewhat neither.
Gawd I wish we could all be sitting in a lovely outdoor cafe discussing these things together. I wish there was more openess amongst people…
One thing I have noticed when speaking with women about sex is that some share a “great secret” something they think is so “bad/freaky” and they are amazed that many find “hey, we do that too”… 🙂 There’s so much shame base when it comes to sex, sexuality and sensuality.
That has stuck with me since this morning.
Let me preface by saying that there are times I’m told no or not now 🙂 and I can definitely say “no” without having to “keep score”. But it’s been a long haul because I did have to overcome several barriers that I gotten’ along the way, mainly that “good girls don’t like sex”… and that sex is basically a keep track of things chore.
I still do tie strong emotions to sex. Not just each individual act but the overal application of who I am willing to be open physically and spirtiuall in a sexual manner. The trust issues, fidelity. And then I can seperate the actual physical act of sex… instead of denoting that each time is a readmission or expression.. when sometimes it’s a hell of a good way to release stress or unwind. 🙂
I can’t go out and have physical relations with someone I don’t care for strongly. Because for me, I can share with others in intense things without physicallness… make sense? meaning I can be intimate with friends and loved ones… without having to have sex. And besides, this may sound weird because in our society we seperate sex from spirituality or enlightenment… but I see sharing that side of myself as something I want to do with a partner.
But what is sex, what is love what is a woman…
I think for me and this is simplyifing things greatly… that for me the mere fact that I can love with such depth and passion makes me a “sexy woman”… TO MYSELF. And that’s a hard one to continually acknowledge and have… it doesn’t matter what others view me as or think of me… my spirit, my being, my sex, my love doesn’t come from without, but from within.
I love you very much Susan. I don’t love you because my ideas of what type of a woman you are, or what type of a sexual being you are or have been or may be.. I love you because you love.
You are my sister of the heart, Janet. Thank you for all the wisdom and insight you’ve shared.
The pond is full of men and women who are so brave. I would not have dared to write a diary anywhere else that challenged the investment many people have in the image that conceals their real lives. This is a painful topic, questioning both the exercise of free will and honesty; painful for women to consider what they’ve given up; painful for men to wonder if they were only being tolerated when they were most vulnerable.
You have all taught me today.
There is a WAR on sex in America.
You aren’t a “good girl/mother” if you like sex.
And we don’t protect those who are in the sex industry, which isn’t going to go away, instead we criminalize it all and hope it will go away. When instead we should be making it SAFER for the the workers.
It’d cut back on rape, crime and disease if we all grew the hell up and actually loved women and decided that we should protect them… might mean that the industry has to clean it’s shit up… and might not be the first course for runaways to turn to.
Legalize it… to if anything protect people on so many levels. To prevent people from being victimized even more so.
You are so right on the money, Janet. Myself, and many others have been saying it for years. Legalize it! Grow the fuck up! Stop all this nonsense about who should or shouldn’t enjoy sex and STOP telling women what they should think or feel about any of it!!
Right there with you girl.
Love ya
Shirl
I’ve stayed away from commenting on this diary so far, but I just wanted to say that I really appreciate everything that all of you have said and taught. This is exactly the kind of diary and discussion that first drew me to BoomanTribune : one that is intellectually challenging to the reader, and that gets me out of my comfort zone as a white male, but isn’t overly rude or accusatory.
Yes – this type of diary and discussion is one of the best features of BT in my view, too. Full credit to Booman for hosting a site where this can happen.
Yes, FULL credit to Booman.
I could not have written this diary anywhere else.
Well, this is one of the best diaries/discussions I’ve ever read here. I am pretty much one of those “the perfect is the enemy of the good” folks, in terms of my approach to life. I have done my best to swallow my rage and bitterness and accept that I will always be at a disadvantage in the great competitive race because I’m a woman. Stuff like this just reminds me of the amount of bile I’m swallowing and how much I need to do just to maintain my equilibrium and some tenuous sense of inner peace.
I guess it explains why I’m single, and why I’ve been so cautious about what men I’ve allowed into my life on an intimate basis.
And you know, I really like men, and the whole thing just pretty much sucks.