(cross-posted at Deny My Freedom)
If I see any type of “concern troll” comments talking about how the Democratic Party has lost it way or that certain candidates are either too liberal or too conservative to garner their support, I will not investigate whether such sentiments are genuine or not. I will assume they are Republican or Green concern trolls who wish us ill. And I will troll rate them. If I see a diary entitled “I hate the Democratic Party,” I will troll rate the comments supportive of it therein. Whether the “concern” comes from the right or left, such comments have no place on Daily Kos this close to an election. Such comments aid the Republicans and do not help the Democrats.
And my comments are not just aimed to new users or fraudulent users here on Daily Kos, but also are aimed to certain disappointing Senators and other professional pundits. Senator Obama and his comments about the Democratic Party recently come to mind. Yes, I am calling Senator Obama a concern troll who is no better than Kean campaign spokeswoman Jill Hazelbaker and her many sockpuppets.
Yesterday over at Daily Kos, Kossack Delaware Dem took concern trolls of all stripes within the Democratic Party to task in the aforementioned post. His anger is well-placed and has a foundation. Recently, there have been a spate of troll diaries or ‘concern trolls’ wondering about the Democratic Party and November’s elections. I’ll readily admit that I like Delaware Dem, unlike this poster. I’ve met him in person, and he’s a great guy to chat and have a good laugh with. However, while I believe his intentions are good, it paints far too broad a picture of what the blogosphere needs to do.
It’s frustrating to have trolls of any kind, whether they be right-wing nutjobs in disguise or people who appear ‘concerned’ about the chances of the Democratic Party in the 2006 elections. However, the fact of the matter is that boots on the ground are what we need this election. It is imperative that the mad reign of the GOP be brought to a halt with a Democratic takeover of Congress. So Democrats haven’t been perfect liberals, like many in the blogosphere wish they would be. So they’re still pretty crappy campaigners, for the most part. So they have trouble getting their message out due to an astounding inability to frame messages properly.
You have every right to be mad at the Democratic Party. They’ve been unable to defeat the worst administration in our country’s history in the last 2 election cycles. Some of our candidates were selected in a wholly undemocratic fashion and are too conservative for our tastes.
Tough fucking luck.
I don’t care how long you’ve been holding your nose and voting for Democrats. Unless you’re volunteering your time for a campaign, unless you are talking to your neighbors and your acquaintances and making sure they talk to their friends, unless you’re being a citizen blogger like the amazing folks of Connecticut such as CT Blogger, Spazeboy, and CT Bob, you are not doing enough. Sitting on your ass and whining about the Democratic Party on the Internet is going to achieve absolutely nothing, because frankly, most of us are too insignificant to make that kind of change online. Whether your candidate is Ned Lamont or Bob Casey, make sure they get elected. And if you simply can’t stomach volunteering your time for a particular Democratic candidate, find one that fits your ideals more. For me, that means volunteering for Patrick Murphy instead of helping an uninspiring candidate kick out Rick Santorum.
There are plenty of ways to help out. If you don’t put in the effort, and the Democrats lose again, you can only blame yourself.
That being said, Delaware Dem ignores the fact that criticism of the Democratic Party is a central reason why the blogosphere has gained any sort of major clout in the political world. MyDD’s Adwatch is such a program – it lets us criticize (or praise) the Democratic Party’s advertisements, arguably one of its weakest areas in the campaign arena. Our pressure is the reason why Democratic Party leaders were whipped into line before the CT-Sen primary, pledging to support the primary winner. Simply put, we are a vocal representation of the grassroots that the Democratic Party has for so long been deeply out of touch with. We are the conscience of the Democratic Party, and although we can mercilessly rip into some of our leaders (Rahm Emmanuel comes to mind), it is because we have the best interests of our party – and our country – at heart. It is not because we are mean-spirited and are looking to grab power. It is because we want to win, we want our party to not be afraid of the other side, and we want to take our country back from those who have destroyed so much good and cast so much evil upon the world in the past 6 years.
There’s a difference between hollow criticism and criticism strengthened by ideas. I believe that Delaware Dem means to speak out against the kind of criticism of our party – from supposed ‘supporters’ of it in the blogosphere, as well as some of our apparent leaders – that puts forth nothing new and simply reinforces the negative image of the Democratic Party. I am all for scrutinizing how our party acts, as long as it puts forth genuine ideas about how we need to move forward.
But unless you are doing something to help get Democrats elected this November, then I agree with Delaware Dem’s sentiments: you can shut your fucking piehole…and keep it closed for good.
wow, how wonderfully Republican of you.
Wonderfully Republican of me?
Think about it: if you don’t vote, you don’t have a right to complain about what’s going on.
Likewise, if you don’t help get Democrats elected, you have no right to complain about them – because you’re not being a part of the political process in helping move them in the direction that you’d like.
I’m not taking the hard line that DD is taking, but there is a thin line between voicing real concern about the Democratic Party and then just being pissed off at them without any sort of constructive advice as to what needs to be done.
getting the likes of Webb, Casey, Massa, Lieberman, Harmon et cetera, et cetera, et cetera produces only more corporate welfare, more war, more imperialism … I’m a liberal, a leftist. I believe that gov’t should be a tool to help natural born human beings, NOT corporations and war machines. I won’t vote for worthless Donks who care only for lining the pockets of their rich friends and contributors.
I’ve voted in every election since I was old enough. I’ve pulled the lever far too many times for the lesser of two lessers far too many times, including LAST time for Teresa’s gigalo. Not going to do it any more. Feingold and Gwen Moore will get my vote … Herb Kohl can kiss my ass, as I’m pulling the lever for Rae Vogeler in November. If enough of us abandon the Vichy Dems, they’ll either be forced out or forced to change.
If you are tired, let the youngens take over.
You want real change? Let a bunch of our third-tier candidates win this election. The types that were self-motivated, not recruited by the DCCC. Then we’ll get a new generation of pols that think differently, that think post Cold War, that think contra Bush-Harman.
Get on board and stop nipping at our heels.
most of them are being actively opposed by the DCCC and DSCC. Why back a former Republican like Duckworth instead of genuine progressives like Cegelis? B/C the leadership are center-right and beholden to their corporate backers. They are okay w/ our endless wars and bullying behavior … they just want to be the head bullies.
Duckworth is one race. Pat Murphy is another. Lois Murphy is another. Lamont is another. Whitehouse is another. Sherrod Brown is another. Bernie Sanders is another. Jack Carter is another. Busby is another. Brian Keeler is another.
We have progressives, and mainstream leftists in this race. We also have centrists. We even have Reagan Democrats and center-rightists in this race.
Focus where the energy is best for you.
Likewise, if you don’t help get Democrats elected, you have no right to complain about them – because you’re not being a part of the political process in helping move them in the direction that you’d like.
You’re aware that you’re trying to communicate to adults on a political discussion blog? Adults with a verifiable history of political activism? In many cases People who have been trying to “move them in (a) direction” longer than you have been alive? Do you have any notion how silly and arrogant that sounds? As long as you use people like Delaware Dem as role models for your online behavior you will sound like an idiot.
then I agree with Delaware Dem’s sentiments: you can shut your fucking piehole…and keep it closed for good.
What a shame that you have apparently chosen to model your online relations after the abysmal failures of the likes of DD and JeffLieber and, even more inappropriately, try to import their attitudes here.
I’m not going to order you to shut up but I am going to strongly suggest that you rethink your new direction. This is the sort of argument and tone which only works with small children and (sadly) doormat women. We are neither and the habitual STFU from authoritarian assholes isn’t admirable, masculine or effective on DK and certainly isn’t here. I strongly suggest you delete or rewrite this piece of crap.
Spot on, colleen.
If I wanted kiss up, kick down, power over, lock step, party line, paternalistic authoritarianism, I’d be a Republican.
for whatever falls from your gaping pie holes. Pural.
And get a gold star from the online whip, Delaware Dem for prickishness, in support of a moribund party.
Ask for a head’s up on the internal polling wrt November.
finis
I don’t agree with telling people to shut their pie holes. But I do wonder what people are doing to help take the government away from the GOP.
I know Madman, for example, prefers to critique the Democrats and hopes they keep losing. He’s always been welcome here and I never tell him to shut up. It doesn’t mean I agree with his strategy though.
I criticize the Democrats in the hopes that they’ll change, or be replaced.
Thanks for playing, though.
PSI has gotten one my ass every once in a while. He tells me in no uncertain terms to basically go to hell for being a Lieberman guy. In fact, I think Madman has it just about right. I wonder if PSI fighter has ever heard of the first amendment?? I don’t always agree with the Democrats, and according to PSI, that’s grounds to STFU.
As for me, I will continue speaking out on both parties when I think it’s warrented. As for PSI fighter, maybe a sedative might be in order.
Puh-lease. Is there anyone who doesn’t get on your ass here?
Bring it on Cabingirl!!!
You sound like George Bush, retard.
Perhaps you need to read what I wrote again. Close reading is something you have shown a remarkable inability to do since you’ve showed up here.
Perhaps you need to read what I wrote again.
For instance, what happened to the comment where you called him a “fucking moron”? It has disappeared.
You’re getting a taste of what it’s like for most of us at UberKKKos. Not pleasant is it? You have the advantage, at least as far as I can tell, of not being troll rated and autobanned for you opinions. I welcome them, even if I disagree 180 degrees or less. You might consider spending more time at dKos fighting for our rights to post without getting troll rated into oblivion.
“If I knew you were coming I’d have baked a cake,
Baked a cake, baked a cake.
If I knew you were coming I’d have baked a cake,
How’d ja do, how’d ja do, how’d ja do.
Well I don’t know where you come from,
And I don’t know where you’ve been.
But it really doesn’t matter,
Grab a chair and fill your platter,
And dig, dig, dig right in.
Cause If I knew you were coming
I’d have baked a cake,
How’d ja do, how’d ja do, how’d ja do!”
ECM, if you’re not a Republican, and you’re not being paid by, or on behalf of, Lieberman’s campaign, just disavow it publicly, right here, right now – you know, just the same way you publicly disavowed ever having been a Democrat…
For the Truth About Joe, visit this website.
So what if he is a paid Lieberman crony? I doubt that he is, but WTF do you care? You act as if he can actually make a difference. I think Lieberman’s an asshole, but i defend eastcoastmoderate’s right to post his thoughts. He’s not going to change my mind, that’s for sure. Old Smokin’ Joe’s actions made my decision easy. Blueneck, your comments are what troll ratings were made for, just like your stupid graphic. Go back to dKos where that kind of bullshit is not only welcomed, but encouraged. While you’re at it, grow the fuck up and act like an adult.
Hey, slow down there, AP. You haven’t seen the comments this ecm person has left in response to my attempting to engage him in some real dialogue. When confronted with honest attempts to engage, ecm resorts to namecalling and ugly imagery. ecm is a troll if I’ve ever seen one. Profanity is not necessary. Please just stay out of it.
It is so fucking refreshing to get a resonable argument back. I am more than happy to stay out of the fight. I just have a bug up my ass from too much dKos abuse. I’m a recovering Kossack and therefore need to make an amends! LOL! I’ll admit it was a bit over the top. Thanks again for approaching me like a human being and not a whining CHUM. I’m happy to take the 2 also. Perhaps it was deserved. Though I still think the graphic was childish.
Ok, A Patriot, truce between us. Perhaps I was slightly over the top with ecm, but I’m not so sure. I am not one to post such things, usually, or even ever before. However, ecm has earned it from me, believe me. I am slow to judge, usually, but ecm is a real loser. No one at this site in the past year+ that I have been here has been quite so ridiculous or unseemly in their postings. Nor has anyone so cavalierly impugned us all.
I am developing some proprietary feelings about this site, though I am well aware that I do not own it, nor do I alone determine who is or is not a troll. However, I assure you that I am not alone in my assessment of ecm.
I’m not angry at ecm, as a matter of fact ecm is quite amusing in that this case is, in my estimation, a typical example. I must tell you that if a troll wants to operate here, they will have to be much more sophisticated than ecm.
Welcome to BooMan Tribune, we all understand about the orange place, and you are welcome here. Flame wars do happen here, too, but usually the issue(s) are big and scary ones and just a few of us really lose it. Mostly, we are interested in sharing ideas and opinions. In an adult manner. Shouting about ideas happens, but we try to keep it personally civil. Assume that the person you are conversing with has the best of intentions, even if you disagree, and you will do well here.
As for me, I try not to use profanity or make ad hominem attacks, as I find them completely useless in discussing issues (although I occasionally let slip a curse word in reference to one of the cabal in power in America today). If ecm had any intentions of changing any minds about Lieberman around here, he/she lost out at the get-go, because of lack of rational means of backing up her/his positions. As to what else ecm may wish to say, nothing has been of any value to anyone, as far as I can tell, and seems soully directed at creating animosity and division or currying favor to set up his/her next attack. I don’t like people who do such things, and I am not afraid to show it.
The troll pic is just my latest gift to the site and to keeping it fun to repel communally recognized trolls. No one should get too bent out of shape about it I hope, its all meant in good fun, as ecm is not getting any traction with anyone who has tried to engage in political dialogue. Anyway, I’ll stand by my post and I’ll stand by the warning I gave you. However, I am giving your reply above a four, as is the BooMan Tribune way. 😉
Sorry for the wrong word choice, but it might actually fit! Perhaps, soulfully, as in with all ones heart, is what I meant! hahaha. laughs on me this time.
😉
I too am not afraid to voice my opinion, as I’m sure you fully know, and I DO like to use profanity at times. usually when someone has consistently rebutted my comments that usually, not always, are informative with facts, often with links.
Sometimes the facts speaks for themselves, as in a load of comments already in the post, so it is often not relevant to repost or blockquote them. I suggest treating ecm as the mascot around here. You never know where he may be right, especially if your view is clouded with distaste, some which may be well deserved.
I can’t say at this time. After my experience at UberKKKos, I refrain from passing judgement too quickly nowadays. I do know that not everyone on here is a paragon of virtue. I recently got accused, by one of our own here, of stalking and harassing him. Such bullshit makes me laugh. You should not have much problem finding out who it is, especially if you post on MLW as that is where he accused me of the said act.
Anyway, I look forward to chatting in the future, many, many, more times. If I may, a few suggestions based on my experience at UberKKKos with the CHUMs. Don’t be so quick to troll rate, even if they may deserve it, if their arguments are cogent and sound and NOT purely inflammatory. THAT is what sets us apart from ASSrocket and those types. Also, let us all try not to hand out ratings just to boost our own egos. Personally, I like the UberKKKos 4 or Troll, and nothing in-between. Unfortunately, all you have to do to get a 4 there is to Kiss someone’s ass a bit who has a bit of (perceived) juice, inversely the same is true to get troll rated. trust me, I know this and will sometime in the near future make a public note of it with examples. LOL!
Well, I appreciate the dialogue, AP. We are engaged in something of a ‘meta’ discussion which is way outside the bounds of the diary in which we are posting, but it has been interesting, nonetheless.
As for having my viewpoint “clouded with distaste”, I understand your point. However, let me be quick to say that I don’t believe wholeheartedly in rules of any kind, and that when I feel that my clouds are appropriate I will knowingly(hopefully) indulge them.
I certainly didn’t intend to claim that everyone here is a paragon of virtue, but it is the case, imo, that we are better about things here than at some, perhaps most, other blogs.
Typically, I will give a WARNING 2 before proceeding to mega-troll, however, in some instances, the immediate banishment of a comment into the netherworld is warranted. From my personal experience here, I have seen too much patience wasted on lost causes, leading to more hurt feelings and lost bloggers than would have been the case if the TU’s here were quicker to hand out a well-deserved mega-troll rating.
There should be a balance, and the balance is hard to achieve. I’m just saying I think that we have been a little bit too slow around here to call it like we see it. So, I decided a couple of months ago not to tip-toe around anymore. I assure you that if were to review my entire rating history, you would be hard pressed to find any undeserved low ratings. In most cases I leave a comment to explain why I down-rated someone, and it is almost always a result of a personal or broad brush attack, and NEVER because I disagree with someone about the content of their opinion(s). I think that you will also find that my down-ratings are almost always supported by other long-timers here, too.
ecm is the exception, not the rule, when attempting to understanding my ratings behavior. I do view ecm as a poor little lost puppydog who can’t find a home because he likes to bite people. I don’t hate such an animal, I just realize that it needs some supervision and that other humans need to be warned about its propensity to bite.
Around here, all you have to do to get a few fours is to make a sane statement in support of your viewpoint, preferrably with a link to some supporting evidence. Heartfelt 4 ratings are encouraged in the Froggy Bottom Lounge and Cafe, also. On the other hand, comments that are disagreed with are responded to with no rating and sometimes a rebuttal comment. When it concerns ratings and recs, we tend to live by the old saying “If you don’t have something nice to say, don’t say anything at all”, so it tends to four or nothing, except in certain cases….
I have to say that whenever these kinds of arguments get going, I am reminded of my fundamentalist roots. Those are the ones that say its not only important what I think – its just as important that you agree with me.
Who cares for example if Psi wants to support Dems and if Madman doesn’t? That is each of their decision to make. And I’ll make my own too – thank you very much!! I think history would show that the combination of both positions has usually been needed to create change (ie, MLK AND Malcolm X).
I say – good on you both!!
But Psi – please don’t tell me or anyone else to shut their pie hole. That’s just not necessary.
well said!
I got it right the first time. All this was, was a angry rant. You had nothing informative to say, and the silly blog shows it. Whatever you were drinking, cut it by at least half.
You’re a fucking moron.
This wasn’t an angry rant. You want angry, read DD’s entire piece. My piece was meant to reinforce the core tenets of DD’s message – criticizing Democrats for no good reason and without advice backing it up is unhelpful – but stripping out the anger and the somewhat authoritarian nature of his message.
You’re a fucking moron.
We understand YOU perfectly.
But really, abuse is not welcome here, and cannot possibly enhance your stated intention of inspiring people to work for candidates.
I know that BMT is a very tight-knit community.
But this particular member has been highly disruptive ever since he arrived, particularly in his trolling for Joe Lieberman. That’s why I’ve used language on him that I’ve never employed against anyone else here at BMT.
You know, I hate Joe Tortureman, and ECM is a Joe-troll, but I like reading his posts and the intelligent responses they get. I learn from them. Joe-Troll also posts in other threads so I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Maybe, just maybe, if we continue to talk like adults, he will see wht Joe pretty much sucks.
Now, as for your diary. It is a really bad idea to tell anyone at BooMan to STFU. Most of us here have really bad memories at Shut Your Fucking PieHole. Most of us came here because we refuse to Shut the Fuck Up. I admit that sometimes, even I think that Casey might be better than Santorum, but then I wake up. While you may have some moral authority given your work on the ground, life isn’t that simple and we are all working in whatever way we can. Your smugness was palitable and offsetting.
Otherwise, I love your diaries and know we are all working for the same thing…namely TAKE THIS COUNTRY BACK!
Well, I apologize for that. The title of this diary was spun off from DD’s and was meant more as a distilling of the points of his that I agreed with than my own criticism of others.
I have enjoyed your previous dairies and your passion. The tone of this dairy and some of your responses to people are not up to your normal standards. The quickest way to turn people off from helping is screaming at them. The blogosphere will have people who have different opinions and that should be welcomed.
I got auto banned by the same kind of NeoConestic types as the dKos diarist in question. Riddle me this Batman. Why do we, as liberals, progressives, Democrats, or whatever other label you’d like to throw in, even spend one minute of or precious time blogging? I don’t know about you, but it seems to me that most of us have a shared sense of right and wrong, and I mean right and wrong in the larger context of behavior. I fight against the bully and for the “little guy.” When I see authoritarianism I call Bullshit on it. When I read comments like yours, I wonder what you are all about. The dKos diarist in question has finally made public what has been going on for a long time there; censorship through intimidation and abuse of power. Sound familiar? The dKos diarist in question may be a great guy in reality. I know he’s passionate about his ideals, and I may even enjoy his company over a cold beer, as I may enjoy yours. We all want the same thing as far as the big picture is concerned, but I will not stand idly by while people who rail against the Bush Administration, Karl Rove, the NeoCon agenda, and the NeoCon mentality, employ the very same tactics against their own. And I’m speaking of the larger issue that has been happening for some time. The issue that the diary brought out exposes the seamy-white underbelly of dKos and those there that participate and condone that behavior either openly or by their silence and inaction. Markos and all the other blog owners cannot abdicate thier responsibilities with the argument that it’s an open community and also state that they own the site and can do as they see fit. My argument on this issue is, and always has been, that the powers that be at dKos and all the other blogs that make up the Left, need to take a stand on this issue in favor or against, and not abdicate their responsibilities if they, and you, or I, expect to be taken seriously by the world, and the MSM, at large. You cannot have it both ways. You cannot decry Karl Rove or George W. Bush, and then endorse like behaviors in your own backyard. My very personal view? Shit or get off the pot, or Lead, Follow, of get the fuck out of the Way.