There are a variety of “alternative interrogation practices” which we know have been employed by CIA and Military interrogators in their work with the War on Terror detainees at Bagram, Guantanamo Bay and elsewhere. Most of them involve physical and mental abuses of which I have no personal knowledge.
For example, I’ve never been subjected to “stress positions.” Never had hypothermia induced by standing in a chilled cell with water splashed over me periodically. Never been kept awake for hours on end. And I’ve never been water boarded:
The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner’s face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt. […]
“The person believes they are being killed, and as such, it really amounts to a mock execution, which is illegal under international law,” said John Sifton of Human Rights Watch.
No, this has never been done to me, so I can’t testify as to what it feels like to a person who has endured this particular “practice.” All I can do to imagine the sensation that water boarding creates in its victims, is to compare it to a real life experience of mine: an episode in which I nearly choked to death when I was 23 years old.
(cont.)
Thousands of people choke to death every year in America. Nearly everyone has experienced a severe choking episode at least once in their life. It’s a horrible, frightening feeling. This was mine.
I was twenty-three years old, and recovering from a bout of pneumonia that winter. My doctor had prescribed for me a common narcotic cough suppressant medication, which came in the form of a syrup. I had just started to swallow another spoonful, when something distracted me. A sound outside, the voice of my girl friend? I can’t remember exactly, but in that moment of inattention I must have taken in a sharp, short breath, because the next thing I knew I couldn’t breathe. The cough syrup which I had been in the process of swallowing had gone down my trachea and into my lungs.
Ever since I was a child, I’ve had a terrible fear of suffocation. I suffered from asthma when I was little, and perhaps the experience of not being able to take in a breath because my bronchial tubes had swollen shut was the basis for my phobia. Or perhaps everyone who has ever nearly suffocated has the same feeling of terror with regard to choking that I do. I can’t say. All I know is that when I inadvertently inhaled my cough syrup, I panicked.
I couldn’t breathe, and yet I frantically attempted to take in breath after breath, to no effect. In between these futile attempts at getting some air, any air at all, into my lungs, I tried to cough the syrup out with whatever air I had in my lungs. Nothing worked, and my convulsions, voluntary and involuntary became more desperate. I jumped off the couch I had been sitting on, threw off my robe (Why? Who knows. Perhaps I thought shedding clothes would help me shed this horrible liquid from my body. More likely, I was just acting irrationally.) and ran to the sink where I tried over and over to cough out the syrup, to no avail.
If you’ve ever choked on something long enough, you know that within seconds you begin to feel a painful burning sensation deep in your chest, and often sharp pains in your ribs from the forceful attempts by your body to expel the foreign invader clogging up your bronchal passages. Or at least that is what I began to feel. Even worse, however, was the state of my mind which literally raced with thoughts that I was about to die. I began to experience a feeling of dizziness, and the sense that the room I was in had begun to close down upon me. Everything I saw with my eyes seemed larger and more focused, sharper in detail, hyperreal. I felt trapped and terribly afraid.
At some point my girlfriend ran into the room, and I know she was screaming at me, wanting to know what was wrong, but I couldn’t respond to her. She was just one more element introduced into what was already a nightmarish scene. I may have tried to gesture at her, or perhaps not. I do recall wildly flailing about with my arms as I struggled to get any oxygen in, any at all. Suddenly, I ran out the door to our apartment and hung myself over the second floor balcony. The air must have been freezing because it had just snowed the night before, and I was dressed only in a pair of boxer shorts, but I didn’t notice the temperature, and I wasn’t really cognizant of my surroundings. I was literally crazed.
Now some of neighbors heard me and came outside to see what all the fuss was about. My girl friend had come outside and was now screaming at them. I know now (because she told me later that morning) that she was yelling for someone to call 911, that I was choking to death. Someone, ran up to me and grabbed hold of my chest, but I wrestled away from him. I was still coughing and gagging away, and making strange, strangled, swooping sounds as I tried to force air into my lungs. The air around me appeared granulated, sort of like snow on a television screen when you can still make out the picture, but it fades in and out. I think I felt tingling sensations running down my arms.
Finally, painfully, I began to get some air into my lungs. People held me as I continued to cough and gasp, cough and gasp, out and in. I gradually came to the realization I wasn’t going to die, at least not that day. After a while, I could speak enough to say I had choked. Someone responded “We know.” They ushered me back inside. The entire time from first beginning to choke to being able to breathe again took about 3 minutes. It’s a cliché, I know, but that was the longest three minutes of my life.
Yet, during that entire time, I was not held down on a board by shackles and other physical restraints. I was not tipped over so that my head was lower than my chest. My panic could play itself out in space, unencumbered. I could move my body and to try to find the best position to bring me relief, to aid in eliminating the substance that was clogging my air intake. And when it was over, I knew it was over for good.
Someone being water boarded is not afforded that luxury. He never knows when the experience will end. He cannot move himself, he cannot leave, and he does not control what happens to him from one moment to the next. Even his rising panic and fears of death are encapsulated, held down and exposed to the presence of people whom he knows mean him harm. And when it is over, when he can breathe once more, when the gagging and panic have passed, he cannot be certain it won’t begin all over again, after another minute, or ten minutes, or an hour, a day, a week. He can never know when someone will decide his breath must be stolen from him, and possibly his life.
CIA interrogators who employ this technique, must also undergo it themselves as part of their training. On average, those who subjected themselves to the water boarding experience lasted 14 seconds “before caving in.”
Of course, they had no reason to continue to endure this treatment. They were merely undergoing a training exercise, one to which they knew they could end whenever they wished. So the full horror of the water board “treatment” was probably not available to them in the same way it is available to those to whom they subject this torture. Just like it is not available to me, despite my own experiences with involuntary suffocation. Even so, they endured enough to have a sneaking admiration for one top Al Qaeda figure who reportedly lasted 2 entire minutes of feeling he was about to drown at their hands. Yes, he was one tough cookie. And one thoroughly terrorized individual
Empathy. It’s a difficult quality to nourish in any human heart, made more difficult when the person we are asked to empathize with may be guilty of murder, terrorism, and crimes against humanity. So I don’t really expect to that the many people in our country who are in favor torture if it is an alleged terrorist who is being tortured, to change their minds based on purely moral grounds. But some may.
Perhaps, after reading this, some may begin to wonder if we really want the terrorists to turn us into a country that would subject people to such barbaric
and degrading treatments. They may begin to understand that reacting to terror with terror of our own is not a strategy for victory, but an endless spiral into an abyss, one whose bottom we cannot yet fathom, but which we know ends in the neighborhood of Hell itself.
So I have a few questions for all those people who support President Bush in his advocacy of torture against our enemies, “enemies” only he, in the exercise of his sole discretion, is allowed to define. If you have ever experienced the pain and terror of drowning, or choking, or any other form of suffocation (and I know you have), if you can remember how terrifying and horrendous that experience was, why in the world would you ever want others to suffer in that way?
And why do you wish to be identified as someone willing to torture other human beings by making them believe they are about to die from drowning? Why do you wish to dishonor America in the eyes of the world, by turning us into the Nation that tortures?
Is vengeance that important to you that you would sell your soul for the privilege? Are your principles and your moral values so easy to discard? Are you so numb with fear that you cannot recognize the humanity in any human being, even a member of Al Qaeda?
Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols were both convicted of the most heinous terrorist attack on America before 9/11, the Oklahoma City bombing in which 168 people died, and hundreds more were maimed or injured. Many people suspect to this day that McVeigh and Nichols were part of a larger conspiracy. Yet, did anyone ever believe that our government (under then President Clinton) should have water boarded Nichols and/or McVeigh to force them to name other members of this alleged conspiracy? No. We are a nation of laws, and a nation which respects the dignity of every individual human being. This principle is enshrined in our Constitution in the 8th Amendment which forbids cruel and unusual punishments. McVeigh and Nicholls were terrorists. They were murderers. They were (and still are in the case of Nichols) horrific, indisputably evil human beings. But no one would have thought to grant President Clinton the authority to water board them in the hopes of uncovering other participants to this ghastly crime. Any effort to do so would have been rightly condemned as immoral and illegal and unconstitutional
So why are we now so willing to grant President Bush that power? Why do we want to practice torture? Do we, as a nation, really wish to sink so low? Do we really want to become as barbaric as those who attacked us?
I would have answered a vehement No! to that question even a few short months ago. Now, it seems I cannot.
Also availble in Orange
One thing that I hate is the use of the term “waterboarding”. Almost makes it sound like an amusement park ride! Think about it.
Waterboarding sounds like it could easily go wrong. I wonder have any of the 125+ prisoners who have died in US custody died from waterboarding? The fear of drowning sounds like the legitimate response, I don’t understand how someone like McCain could approve unless he’s a sociopath. People will say that he is, but that explanation is still too simplistic for me.
I’m still trying to get over christians being 50% more likely to support torture than secularists. The Republican party has seriously corrupted the groups who should be our moral arbiters. Or maybe Pat Robertson and company corrupted the churches and Republicans merely took advantage. Either way, I’m disgusted with my country, especially those who trumpet their own goodness.
My lifelong view that the human race is steadily moving forward towards some great future is mostly gone. Every additional year of Bush erases decades of progress. These assholes really want to take us back to the monarchical dark ages, with better toys to placate the masses. It’s sick that so many people support them.
I’ve seen water boarding up close and personal. It’s torture.
This keeps feeling like a bad dream… a science fiction novel set in some hypotetical future… not the America I was brought up in, the nation once revered throughout the world for its principled stands on justice, the rule of law, and basic human rights. (For even if those principles were not always equally applied by our government, the principles themselves have always stood as the highest ideal of how people should be treated.)
And it is both utterly reprehensible and terrifying that the House (and it appears, the Senate) are so blind, browbeaten, so far removed from those ideals as to pass this bill — and give this President of ALL people, a petty, vindictive bully and moral coward without a shred of apparent empathy for the rights or pain of others, the sole power of discretion when it comes to determining the fate of helpless prisoners, without any legal recourse or reason given–and the authority to order those prisoners to be subject to such horrifying treatment, for no reason other than the fact he can.
This is the schoolyard bully not only given a pass when it comes to torturing small animals, but made the sole overseer and despot of the playground, with all the authority of the teachers to back him up, no matter what he feels like doing to any other student who says or does anything he doesn’t like or makes him feel somehow inferior.
I pray that we wake from this national nightmare soon… and that someday those who bear the highest responsibility for this travesty face the justice — not torture or indefinite incarceration, but JUSTICE, under due process of law, where all their crimes may be laid bare for all the world to see…. which I suspect is more terrifying to them personally than even the torments they are determined to visit upon others.
we are here b/c we have chosen to put off full development of adulthood in this country. We live in a perpetual adolescence, the fulfillment of simple needs placed above personal development. The need to SELL has driven us, through our media, broken educational systems and the shameless pandering of politicians to lop off the cap of Maslow’s Pyramid of Needs. Few of us ever even rise to the “Esteem” level. Most people’s moral development stops at the “Social/Love” level or “Security/Safety” level, so like underdeveloped children we can be manipulated.
As we’ve turned our back over decades on the Enlightenment and Humanism as social values, we’ve left behind the idea that people can actualize themselves as higher moral actors. In fact, as morality can ONLY come from the checklists provided by dogma, the ability of leaders who draw upon those dogmas to lead us astray has only grown.
Lawrence Kohlberg’s Stages of Moral Development can be tied closely to Maslow’s pyramid, as the development of moral sense and judgement can be tied to the fulfillment of our basic needs, enabling us to work at bettering ourselves and the world around us. The stages are:
I’m oversimplifying some of this, but plainly there are almost NO leaders or institutions fostering the development of Level III. There’s no money in it. There’s no POWER in it. The rot that has led us here grew from the manure of our fostering of rampant unfettered capitalism and the corruption of or educational systems and other institutions, corruption that was fanned by the irrational fear of communism. This new enemy, these new outrages, are being pursued by a cabal that grew to power fighting that old paper tiger, and now they’ve convinced a small, underdeveloped society to surrender any belief in or hope for the higher development of Americans as moral actors. We started down this road a long time ago, and now we’re driving off the cliff at the end of it.
Choking with horror at what is happening to our country.
What are we missing? Seriously. Most of us here can’t even imagine our beloved and “civilized” society subjecting people to torture. Yet we are witnessing our elected representatives voting for torture and the suspension of civil/human rights, appparently with the support of our neighbors, coworkers, relatives.
What are we missing? We have to find out if we want any hope of turning this country around. What can we do to allay fears, to increase empathy and empower them. Or am I off track? Are they not afraid, lacking in empathy or feeling disempowered? What is driving this? What can we do?
Kahli,
your sentiments closely resemble my recent feelings of bewilderment and my beginning to question what it is that is different about me, about us here and those few, too few, who are horrified by what we see. All along it was the other way around. First there was a belief that the country wouldn’t stand for this stuff for long. Then there was a growing anger and frustration at the complacency, or what I used to believe was complacency. Which began to shift disgust that so many weren’t merely lazy and complacent, but maybe fully supporting these crimes. Now I’ve begun to seriously wonder how it could be that I’m apparently in a smaller and smaller minority. This causes me saddness…and fear of the future. If my beliefs are so different than the majority, what will happen to me and you and others like us in the future? And why should I stay here?
More and more I think our criminal gov’t is an accurate representation of 33% to 50% of the American population. They ARE a sizable portion of us, and act in accordance w/ their constituents demands. One need only look at our brutal prison system, our neglected inner cities and our decimated public schools to see this is true. Listen to callers into talk radio or Washington Journal.
The ugly Americans are in charge, and as they gain power, more and more Americans swell their ranks out of a sense of self-preservation. We may very well be past the point of no return.
I sense something truly awful is on the horizon for the country internally, let alone the atonement that must inevitably be made to the rest of the world. I’ve always been keenly aware of the ugly side of America. Institutionally and socially. But I never percieved that I was so far out of the mainstream as it looks like I am now. We’re being forcefully attacked now through legal and extra legal means by the govt. I’m becoming more certain that part of that attack is the conscious efforts by the govt. and the media arm of it to divide and isolate us further. I used to believe that a civil war was possible, but now it looks more and more we may become oppressed and hunted. Not only by the govt., but by it’s supporters too, who are being encouraged.
we’ve steadfastly refused to atone, or even honestly talk about:
I could go on. Cancers, all of it, untreated, metastasizing, mutating … I worry about the civil war too, but then I’ve read so much cyberpunk that maybe I’ve just come to expect it. As befitting the 21st Century, it would likely be a low-intesity conflict. No Gettysbergs, lots of Ford’s Theaters and Murrah Federal Buildings.
I share all of your reactions, Super. I don’t belong here anymore, and I well know it. If I were younger, I would be looking for a different country to call my home. But I am not young, not “able, and not willing to leave family. So, what to do?
I’ve decided to live through this as if I were facing a terminal disease. I’ve cycled through the denial, the depression, the bargaining, the anger, over and over, and am finding longer stretches of acceptamce setting in as I go. There is nothing more I can do to change the outcome ahead, but there is a lot I can do about how I spend my “now” moments.
I am loving my beloveds as hard as I can. I am reaching out to others everyway I know how, and loving them as best I can, too. I am paying attention to and enjoying every single thing about life that is beautiful, mysterious and filled with goodness. I do what I can to offer strengh and empowerment and support to others who are still fighting hard for what this country once stood for, and to those who know it is time for them to find a new land, as well. I am recording as much as I can of what I have seen and learned, to pass along to those who will be left to pick up what’s left of this land when what it has now become, crumbles and falls. This brings me a small measure of peace.
I believe that underneath the denial and chosen ignorance of what’s really happening now, there are vast numbers of Americans like us, Super, who have been brainwashed so long and so effectively, they don’t even really know who they are anymore. Once they are hit hard enough personally,and they will be, most of them not “at the top of the heap” will be jarred back to reality.
Meanwhile, we have each other to hang onto. Here’s my hand.
Dear Super Supersoling. Your agony over this is so palpable it brings me to tears.
This is beyond painful to watch.
As Madman points out, America has been guilty of egregious offenses before and we don’t recognize, discuss or atone for them.
Sometimes our current state of affairs causes such cynicism in me that I don’t even recognize myself.
The question I posed above came from my idealistic side, however. I don’t/can’t/won’t believe my fellow countrymen are really and truly want to harm others and live in a totalitarian country.
If we can figure out what is truly motivating them even at a subconscious level perhaps we can find a way to counter it. I don’t know.
As for leaving,again, I don’t know. In some ways our staying is our only hope. On the other hand, are things past hope?
Questions that keep me awake at night.
I just heard on America that the Senate is considering an amendment by Sen. Spector that would at least protect haebeus corpus and might scuttle the whole torture bill.
Call your Senators now: Senate switchboard: 866 808 0065.
Call Senators Snowe and Collins of Maine, they are essential to the passage of the amendment.
Collins: 202 224 2523
Snowe: 202 224 5344
I got Huntington’s Disease. Mine is at the very early stages, but I’m already having problems with my swallowing process. It’s very bad that I’m having these problems so early into the process, but bluntly, it’s also one of the more merciful ways this stupid disease could take me. If you know anything about Huntington’s Disease, it’s an ugly deterioration process.
Anyway… I have what you describe happen a couple of times a month. Something in the involuntary swallowing process doesn’t trigger right, I’m blowing whatever I had in my mouth across the room, at the wall, at my monitor, etc. I’m reduced to coughing/gagging fits until whatever food/beverage particle that went down my throat the wrong way comes back up to whatever area my body decides is safe. Unfortunately, this happens often enough, I’ve mentally adjusted to the idea this crap happens to me. The conscious part of my brain recognizes what’s happening.
That does not matter. About 95% of the process is involuntary. The panic still happens. The overwhelming fear of death still sweeps over you. The only part of the process I don’t still have happen to me is part where your conscious part of the brain is racing trying to figure out what’s happening to it. That part my brain has worked out now. Now, that part of my brain just does a lot of cursing now.
I don’t know enough about international law personally to know if “mock executions” are illegal, but if they are, then water-boarding is illegal. The only part of the death process you don’t go through when you choke is the “lights turning off and then nothing” at the very end. There’s nothing “mock” about it. It’s execution interruptus.
God, that’s horrible. I’m very, very sorry that you have such a nasty disease.
The dying part doesn’t bother me. The “living, breathing mess if I don’t choke” part does.
Oregon is a beautiful place, but there were other very important reasons why I moved here. I intend to make sure the “living, breathing mess” part doesn’t happen.
Just make sure people looking at what I have to look at always have that option.
afs, I am so glad you live in Oregon, and I support you and admire you very much in your determination to make your own choices. We deserve to have this right everywhere, and as a retired RN, I have supported it my whole career. I lost a good friend to Huntingtons. I will keep you close in heart and hope you draw the very best of those who can help, to be there for you all the way.
Now you have given me anohter place to consider moving to. Due to Medicare D, its only a matter of time before my anti-convulsants are deemed unnescessary.
Status epilepticus
I have had toxic reactions to anti-convulsants before. And, generics don’t work, I tried them. Still, I have risk my life and try them again and prove that I need them.
See, that is how the federal budget is balanced. Reduce SSD/I payments, Food Stamps, Secion 8, and so on. Cute.
Realistically, I know it is going to happen–we all know that. I’ve tried to accept it, but still tear up when I think about it.
Just have to wait until I can afford the move and pray that it doesn’t happen before.
Not a good neurologist, not a very good neurologist. A great neurologist.
I’ve heard a lot of bad neurologist horror stories. There’s some serious mad scientists in the field of neurology. They all come from neurogists that have had better than solid reputations. The worst couple come from a neurogist who was the head of the neurology department at a better-than-solid medical school/hospital.
Oregon state government is in rough shape right now. The fiscal situation is a real mess. It’s caused by out-of-state right wingers funding bizarre voter initiatives that have reeked havok with finances.
Here’s a couple of links for you to follow Oregon issues…
http://www.blueoregon.com/
http://www.nwprogressive.org/portal/
I’ve heard a lot of bad neurologist horror stories.
I’ve run into a few here in MI, so I know exactly what you are talking about. Heard several that resulted in patients refusing to see neurologists, but getting prescriptions from a GP. Same holds true for traumatic brain (tbi) injury survivors. Believe it or not, there are quite a few neurologists who don’t know jack about tbi!
Any links re: social services would be appreciated, as would any others to employment/economy. Want to make sure I can live for a change, as opposed to just survival, which is getting tougher all the time, due to that DINO Graholm and her damn budget cuts.
MI is in shitty shape and no one running for office cares about anything other than getting re-elected.
Thanks.
I’m am so sorry for your suffering. I don’t know what else to say.
About 4 years ago, I was babysitting a friend’s children, ages 4 months and 3 years. Put the baby down for a nap, and gave the toddler a snack–those hot dogs for toddlers that come in a baby food jar. It was a glorious fall day, colors just starting to turn, sunshine, and toddler wanted to eat outside.
Sure, no problem, just put on our jackets and we go outside. I’m taking everything in, toddler’s eating his snack. I glanced at the toddler–face was red, tears were in eyes, and arms were raised. Everything happenned so fast–I guessed he was choking, picked him up, and did a Heimleich. Never did one in my life before, but I swear, I saw the pages of an old first aid, maybe a girl scout manual that said something about how to do a Heimleich on small children.
Two tries, and let me tell you, I was never so glad to hear a kid’s shrill scream in my life. Then I started shaking. Coincidentally, Dad took the afternoon off unexpectedly and walked in to hear toddler crying, runs out to the patio, “WTF?” Gist of it was that all ended well re: that incident.
But, parents divorced a year or so later and moved away.
during consensual SM play with my boyfriend.
in 6 years he has only safeworded twice….when i was electrocuting his itty bits for the 100th or so time…and the waterboarding experiment….he instantly felt he was drowning and freaked out.
he would have admitted to anything at that moment including being sent to me from another planet.
torture should be limited to consensual sex games between trusting partners and not be used for intelligence gathering.
how’s your health?
for the first time in a year.
thanks for asking 🙂
This is another case of the bad guys doing the good PR. “Waterboarding” sounds like something you do on a sunny day at the beach. Combine that with the massive plague of ignorance that afflicts the American people and you win. Of course if there was anybody on our side, there would be a competing and realistic description out there called “forced drowning”. But that wouldn’t be supporting the troops, would it?