The nurse made a prediction.
She said, with confidence, that the baby would weigh 8lbs, 8ozs. I have a picture of that nurse holding that baby with a huge, satisfied smile on her face. It turned out that she was exactly right. But I think she was smiling because she was just as much in awe of this beautiful and noisy little miracle as I was.
I witnessed the births of all three of my children. Dumbstruck and crying. Feeling useless and so completey and universally priveledged to witness such things. Words will never be nearly adequate to express the three most precious events of my life. I don’t remember words. I remember feelings. I remember touch. I remember sounds, and I seek out eyes. I seek connections of the soul through those eyes. I have been so deeply in love with each of them since I first heard of each one’s existence. And I’m still in love with them.
I want to tell you more about little Miss 8lbs, 8ozs……
My second child, and my first daughter is Sarah. When she came into the world, the doctor placed her in my hands as they lay on her mother’s stomach. A perfect unison of three connected beings, I thought. A little later, after that nurse so lovingly and gently tended to her and wrapped her up in warm little blankets, I got to hold her again. Alone in the corner of the room, just she…and me. It was then that she first really opened her eyes and looked at me. I believe that our bond began at that moment. And she likes to believe it too. Those of you who have more than one child know that each one is unique, and your relationship with each is unique too. There are shared moments and experiences that are solely belonging to you and that child. If I were to tell you of all of Sarah’s and my experiences and treasured moments, it would make a novel. But there are a few that stand out in my memory.
I’ve had to be a single parent twice in my children’s lives. For reasons that aren’t important here, and that some of you already know of or have an idea about. Needless to say, despite how difficult it is raising kids alone, I can honestly say that those days together built the foundation of our relationships and our trust of one another. One Easter, when Sarah was four, me and the kids were invited to an Easter Egg hunt at a friends farm. My friends did this for me and the kids because they knew we needed it badly. We needed to feel included, because we had recently been through a lot of turmoil and heartbreak. Not to mention how uncertain the world must have felt to them. It didn’t seem right to have Easter at home this first year because home had just changed radically for them. Little Sarah was beside herself with anticipation of getting dressed up in one of her fancy dresses and presenting herself to the Easter Bunny and gathering as many eggs as she could :o) She has always loved pretty things. Frilly dresses with ribbons and bows in her hair. She had lots of dresses, for lots of occasions. For church. For holidays. For school. Even for gathering frogs and beetles :o) When the egg hunt began, most of the other kids there got off to a good start while Sarah ran around, always a second or two too late. After a few minutes she came running over to me looking like the saddest kid on Earth. You’ve seen those heart tugging Boo Boo lips. Daddy, I can’t find any, she said. She was certain that there were none left. So I cheated a little ;O) Psst…Sarah? See that tree? Wink wink ;O) What tree Daddy! Shhh, shhh :o) That tree, right there :o) Uh huh. I think I see something blue behind it :o) Really?!! Shhh :o) Yep. Go take a look and see what you might find :o). OK Daddy……Zooooooom!!! Lol! Those little legs got to truckin man! :o) When she got to peeking around the back of the tree, she stopped and her mouth flew wide open. Daddy, I found one! Yeahhhh!! After that, she flew around the farm with her hair and her dress trying to keep up :o) She was finding eggs like they had radio beacons on them :o) The pictures that I took of her that day, with her smile…..well, you know, don’t you? :o) I’m smiling so much here now, just thinking of it :o)
When she was in 2nd grade, her class had an end of the year Pirate party. She told me that all the parents were dressing up as Pirates and that I should make sure to do it too. Ooookay :o) I can do that Sarah :o) Now I’m a little shy you know. And I wasn’t too eager to to hang out with a bunch of parents dressed up like Pirates, but it was important to her. I got my bandana wrapped on my head. I got the big hhop earring in my ear. I have a patch over one eye. And one of those horizontal striped t-shirts on. I’m thinking that Sarah is gonna freak when I show up at her class :o). Well, she did. But she wan’t the only one who freaked ;o) Do you see the setup? The one that I didn’t? :o) So I was the best looking Pirate out of all the parents…because…I was the only Pirate out of all the parents! Ha Ha!! Cute, very cute…Sarah :o) I come walking in, all decked out and people start looking at me kinda funny :o) I would’ve too I think! Maybe they thought that I was a hired Pirate or something. I don’t know. But Sarah was giggling and hanging onto my arm, completely satisfied with herself…and happy with me :o) I told a woman there that I was a little embarrassed about it and she told me not to worry because I was the coolest Dad in the room :o) I think I should’ve thanked Sarah for making me cool :o)
I told you about these couple of things because I wanted somehow to convey how close she and I have always been. How playful we are with each other. Because it’s all about trust. About her knowing that I would always be there and always do my best for her and her sister and brother, no matter what. That even when she wasn’t happy with me when I needed to slow her down and let her know that something she’d done wasn’t right, she could count on it being fair and always with her best interests at heart. That’s not such a hard thing to do when your kids are little. They take you at face value because they depend on you so much. That’s not always true when they get older though. And Sarah is much older now.
Our bond is being tested sorely right now. It’s not because I’ve changed. It’s because she’s growing up and becoming a woman. A supremely talented young woman. And it’s because she’s fallen in love with someone that I can only generously call a little creep. I thought that I had myself at least a little prepared for the possibility that this might happen. The only thing I’m certain of is my opinion of him. I have no desire, or designs to be too deeply involved in her personal life beyond that of giving advice when asked and listening as closely and as openly as I can. She will be 17 next May and has been with this boy for almost a year now. Now, I might be a little guilty of being too much of a “traditional” father when it comes to my daughters. It doesn’t seem fair to treat them differently than my son. But I honestly believe that my daughters are at a greater risk to unhealthy people and unhealthy relationships than my son is. For lots of different reasons. American, or western society is full of extra burdens and expectations for girls and women. That’s just a fact. They’re more vulnerable to being manipulated by those expectations no matter how strong they’re upbringing. I know, and those of you who know me know, that my marrige is partly at fault for them being vulnerable. I haven’t taught them through example of the best way to handle a bad relationship. But I’ve always been honest about it with them, sharing that part of me as best I could, and as they grew older and better able to understand it. I don’t want to go into descriptions of this kid other thanthat he frightens me. I still trust my instincts about the kids and what’s best for them, as long as I’m responsible for they’re welfare. And I can see this kid dragging Sarah down daily. It’s a typical manipulative relationship that they have. She doesn’t hang out with her friends anymore. She’s losing weight. She cries on the phone nearly every night. She’s had to answer to him for things as innocent as talking to boys from school that she’s friends with. He frightens me because I see the signs of someone who won’t be able to let go when they inevitably go their seperate ways. I continually disobeys our requests to let her have some time for herself. to let her finish her homework. To let her call him when it suits her to call. Or even to allow her to hang up the phone when it’s bedtime here. Whenever he has any crisis in his life, large or small, he leans on her like she’s his therapist. And it’s wearing her down, physically and emotionally. And yet, she professes her love for him. We’ve tried reasoning with her, curfews, limiting phone time, grounding her when she resisits attempts to put the brakes on, compassion for her feelings, and appealing to her sense of trust in us. But especially her sense of trust in me, that I’ll always do what’s best for her. Nothing is working.
My first diary here, over a year ago, was seeking advice about my daughters. I recognized the wealth of experience of all you women here. I’m asking again. I am genuinly afraid for her. I see a bad ending coming. I don’t know how it will present itself, but it won’t be pretty. And at this point I’m willing to risk our relationship temporarily if it means ending this in the short term. I’m ready to just forbid her to see him. I know how that sounds. Believe me, I do. But I don’t know what else to do anymore. There are many, many unpleasant things going on in our lives right now, but none are nearly as important as the emotional and physical health of our kids. I really don’t think she’ll run away. And I don’t think I can keep her from seeing him altogether. I wish she could see it for herself because, like I said, I don’t want to interfere in her personal life too much. I know that I don’t need to know everything. She’s entitled to her life and her privacy. But this is going to end, one way or another. It has to. I’m confident that one day she’ll understand this better. It’s today that Im not confident about.
Do any of you have similar experiences that you could share? And how you dealt with it? What the outcome was, and the risks? I really need your advice.
Peace
I should add that he’s her “first”. I never had unrealistic expectations that any of my kids would remain virgins much beyond 16 or 17. I wish they had, but at least they were open about it, and open to every conversation about safety.
I’m in the unfortunate position of not being able to talk too much about my personal experiences since they reflect on people, like my parents and ex-girlfriends, that can be identified.
So, keeping it vague, I’ll say that my parents attempts to control who their sons dated did not prevent us from continuing to date those girls and earned them no good will later, even in the cases where their instincts were right.
I totally agree that there is a difference between sons and daughters. In both cases, their is a real concern about your child being hurt emotionally. But, with boys you don’t have to worry too much about them being abused physically. If you are concerned about her safety, then you need to do something. But if you are more concerned that she is going to be miserable or heartbroken, it’s a lot tougher call. I’m not Bill Frist, so I don’t know the answers. But I do know that you should think hard before you try to end their relationship through coercion. It’s unlikely to work, and it won’t likely be appreciated. If it is important enough and it will work, then obviously you should do it.
her safety, then you or her friends or someone will need to intervene and make sure she’s safe.
My threat to tear this kid in two was really, really wrong. Even though it might be understandable. It shows that I’ve gotten too wrapped in the big bad daddy role. I’m not like that, no mater how pleasing seeing this kid in little tiny pieces would be.
Whoops, I meant this as a reply to Booman and my comment to him about dissecting the kid.
I’ve already tried coercion. I’m talking about flat out forbidding it. It’s that serious. And I am genuinly concerned for her safety. Emotional and psycological damage can be just as bad, if not worse than physical damage. And to be honest, I worry about him getting physical too. If that happens I’ll tear him in two, trust me.
If this were just a case of a crummy relationship, where she’ll eventually get her heart broken, I wouldn’t interfere. I’d let it take it’s course and allow her the space to grow from it. But it’s not that simple. And I fear, really Booman, that something not so nice is coming.
if you are worried about her safety then that is a whole different thing.
What do you predict they will do when you forbid them to see each other?
Here’s one small example of this kid’s bullshit.
Not long ago we grounded her for her reaction to our attempts to put some small limits on phone time. The kid threatened to break up with her because she got herself grounded and unable to meet him.
Like i said, I really doubt she’d run off. He’s her age and lives at home too. I think the only way is the hard way. If she’s found to be seeing him, the restrictions will have to be increased. Doesn’t that just sound nutty and impossible to you? It does to me, but that’s how far out of hand this has gotten.
He’s threatened to kill himself if she breaks it off with him. He’s fucked up and he’s fucking her up too. I just can’t let this go on. But I don’t know how to make it happen.
is he a jock, a stoner, a slacker, or what?
Sounds pretty manipulative.
I do know that you don’t stand much of a chance against a first-love.
None of the above. I’d describe him as a Snoop Dog wanna be. Gangsta. None of that matters. I never set preconditions on the boy’s style, only his character.
The Gangsta thing can be pretty annoying, especially all the bitch and ho bullshit. When it’s central to your schtick to be a condescending asshole to women, it’s not a great start for the father of the daughter.
Who could help you intervene? Perhaps you could talk to a group or center in your area that deals with domestic violence-related issues. Here in Minnesota we have Cornerstone and a Sheila Wellstone institute.
Here’s a link to some Minnesota based organizations dealing with domestic abuse and family violence issues. Perhaps there are some similar organizations in your neck of the woods or you could call one of these folks for info/referal?
Super, from, what I know from your posts here about has gone on in you and your family’s life, you’re prime candidates for some outside help on issues like this.
You don’t have to shoulder the burden alone (and trust, me I know what that feels like!) and I’m glad to see you reaching out here again.
I’m a single dad with a teenage augher and son. I struggle everyday with hoping
My daughter’s made some decisons I haven’t been happy about but she seems to be rebounding now. Like you I’ve been open with her, strong where needed and always try to keep an open mind and open door.
I’ve read some of your posts before and I think I know a little of what has gone on that has led you to single parenting at times in your lives.
I’ve come to the realization over the last few years that because of our family background and the background that my ex-wife and I both come from that things will never be perfect (or even easy, casual, etc.) with my kids. But that my role is to showcase a strong positive example of a person who can change, who takes care of themselves and is capabable of healthy relationships with people.
Friends have told me that parenting doesn’t end at 18 or 19 or 21. That you can set examples and show your kids positive change well into their adulthood.
It sounds like you’re doing a great job. Just hang in there!
I need to get to bed, but thank you. You would understand the unique bond between kids and a parent raising them alone. I’m not alone now, but there’s a lot of disagreement on this. Up until recently I’ve taken a back seat and waited to see how it would play out. Her mother is too afraid of losing her. She’s too emotional about it, IMO. It’s clouding her vision. I don’t want to lose her either, but at some point it has to become a non-negotiable solution.
I had the same issue with my ex-wife before it we ended it. I still have conflicts with her sometimes about the appropriate response or approach.
Do what feels right. My ex recently laid into me about being overly harsh in disciplining my daughter for a series of irresponsible things and curfew violatons that kept piling up.
Two days after my “harsh” approach my daughter opened up to me about a whole series of things going on and some serious issues a close friend of hers was dealing with.
It all washes out in the end. I think.
I appealed to every emotional bond and our history of trust that I could. She knows how I feel about it. But she’s so wrapped up in this kid that everything beyond her feelings for him is drowned out. Besides, I’m not certain that she would approve of me asking for advice about her in such a public way.
Thank you
In that case there might not be much you can do. People in love, or who think they’re in love, have been known to do things that aren’t exactly in their best interest. They’ve also been known to not pay attention to older, calmer, wiser heads who aren’t looking at the world through the rose-colored prism they are.
Many songs and stories have been written about this phenomenon.
Some things she’s just going to have to learn for herself, I’m afraid, and there isn’t much you can do except maybe to go along with the words of the song that’s currently playing on my laptop (by Don Black and AS Rahman, from the musical Bombay Dreams):
Love’s never easy,
You will learn this lesson, too,
I’ll be here for you when you do.
I sincerely hope her safety isn’t in question, though. Lots of songs and stories have been written about that too, and not all of them turn out well.
If she’s that wrapped up in him you’re not going to be able to do much. It’s virtually impossible to stop a girl that age from seeing a boy she wants to see. And of course you even said that you don’t think you CAN stop her from seeing him altogether. So there are no answers, only questions.
You say you’re willing to risk your relationship temporarily if it means her relationship with him is ended in the short term. What do you mean by temporarily? What if the damage to your relationship turns out to be more than you expected? Would it be worth it? How much damage to your relationship would you be willing to risk? Under certain circumstances I’m sure you might be willing to risk permanent damage -if her life was in danger for instance. What level does this rise to?
And BooMan’s question is really key. What DO you predict she will do when you forbid her to see him? You say you don’t think she’d run off. I assume you don’t think she’d harm herself or you would have said so.
But she’s going to do something. So realistically, what DO you think she’d do?
Would she basically obey you – but never trust you again?
Would she do something really desperate to keep him in her life – like intentionally get pregnant?
Sorry to raise even more questions – but nobody can answer them but you.
And whether she appreciates it or not – she has a really good dad.
Thank you MaryB
I commented below that I’m not confident, if I’m realistic about it, that she wouldn’t get pregnant on purpose. I don’t think she would, but I can’t really rule it out. When I said short term it was the expectation that she probably would hate me for a time. This is what her mother has been so afraid of. I’m trying to be less emotional about. If having her hate me for awhile is the price to be paid for getting this guy off her back, then I could deal with that. Until this happened we have always had a very strong bond and as near as I can honestly tell she’s always trusted me. It’s difficult to understand how all of that could suddenly go out the window. I have to believe that deep down she knows and remembers our history and my constant presence and protection of her. In that sense I can’t our relationship being permanently damaged, or that she would never trust me again. I’m thinking that some of the other suggestions like her own private counselor, helping to get her more immersed in her singing and following her dreams, along with speaking to the boy’s school guidance counselor are probably the best short term things to do. Those things combined could help to remove her more and more from him. I did say that I didn’t think I could keep her from him. I know that I can’t. But I’m not overreacting to this situation. Not that you said I was. But this is how completely frustrated I feel at this point.
Thank you again
You can’t forbid her, she will simply turn against you. But I have two questions for you:
I know she’ll turn against me. As unpleasant as that is, it’s come to the point, I think, that those concerns are secondary to her health.
She does have a job. Unfortunately it’s right around the corner from his house :o) And each of them have friends that are telling them to break up, so those things are already in play. Maybe she’ll begin to listen to them more as time passes…I hope.
As far as his parents go, well, that’s another screwed up monkey wrench in the works. And another long story. They were initially against their son seeing her. Especially the mother. She accused Sarah of being a pothead and unfit for her son because Sarah, being honest as she is, admitted to her in confidence that she had tried marijuana. The mother went so far as to come to our house with her husband and stand in our front yard and call Sarah and us some fairly unpleasant names. I couldn’t believe that anyone would actually do that, and it was about all I could do to keep from coming off the front step and defending my family and our space. So you see, that’s not an option. I’ve been considering calling them now though and letting them know what I wish to happen and to ask that they try to do the same with their son. But they’re under the illusion that he’s perfect and I’m not hopeful that reaching out to them will help solve anything. I’m willing to set aside my disgust for them if it will help, but I’m not willing to waste my time on nasty people.
Oh, Lord.
You try to talk to his parents and they act like THAT? Dear God.
And there’s nothing like a mother who thinks her son walks on water! Only if your name is Mary…and your son’s name is Jesus of Nazareth.
OK…so that’s not helping. :<) So seriously, can you make another attempt to meet with them, but perhaps with a social worker as a mediator of sorts? If not both parents, one of them? This kid may hurt your daughter and himself, and a meeting needs to happen, and if it’s as serious as this then I really need to think that the authorities need to be involved.
I have to say that I almost started crying at the description of how you felt when your kids were wee ones. I could picture it perfectly. I can see, more clearly, where my own Dad was coming from when I was dating someone he was less-than-enamored with. He wasn’t creep-like in the way you describe your daughter’s boyfriend-from-hell, but I’m sure my Dad was thinking, Just when the hell is she going to see through this guy? Of course, he wasn’t at all understanding like you–he tried everything in his power to undermine the relationship.
With predictable results.
I held a torch for the boy, off and on, for the better part of seven years. Sheesh, it’s embarrassing as hell to admit that.
But I think there’s a difference between falling on your ass (repeatedly, in my case) and clear and present danger. She’s not hanging out with her friends? Losing weight? Crying on the phone regularly? Having to “answer to him”? (That alone is reason to kick his sorry ass–outside of her parents, she “answers” to no one.)
She sounds like she’s on the fast track to domestic violence and depression. He sounds like a potential batterer.
I know this isn’t lost on you, not at all. But that circles back to talking to the parents with a social worker. Document everything.
And talk to her. Please remind her that LOVE DOES NOT HURT. Never has, never will. As many issues I have with church, this is as close to a perfect definition of love I’ve seen (I don’t know why these verses aren’t stressed more in Church…or maybe I do know why, but still):
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.
Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
Love never fails.
I’m sorry this is so long, but your diary has touched me so. Good luck. You are a good man and a good father. She has a gift more precious than diamonds–she has you as her Dad. She may not see these things now, but she will.
Believe me–the former starry-eyed teenager now married to a man who demonstrates every day that LOVE DOES NOT HURT.
My ex-mother-in-law.
Red flags.
Get your daugher to a therapist (both you and her) and her to a doctor ASAP (weight loss)! DOCUMENT and be as specific as possible re: dates, and changes in her when talking to the therapist. Then, get a restraining order against this manipulative prick before he destroys her, you and your entire family. In some states (mine), you can fill out the paperwork yourself.
Very important legal sticking point for you to remember and use: your daughter is a MINOR.
Oh, and did I forget to say…
…DOCUMENT EVERYTHING?!?!?!
That’s so important.
Oh, and Street Kid: ROTFLMAO!!! Oh, but there’s nothing like hearing a woman complain about “all these girls” who are calling their wittle boys. Oh, they are so aggressive! Oh, they call all the time!
It always made me crazy. They didn’t know the half, ‘cuz they didn’t wanna know. And usually, their precious babies were off the chain!
A parent can’t know everything, but those types of mothers drove me crazy when I was growing up. Luckily, I’ve never had to deal with it past high school–though I’ve seen mothers whose sons are grown men act the same way. Sheesh.
I didn’t mean to step on your toes, but I was referring to medical documentation as well, e.g. the weight loss and possible bruises hidden under clothes. (It does happen.) This whole thing sounds verbally/emotionally abusive already. Did a bit of case management and heard it all. (supersoling has got to lay a paper trail.)
Yeah, and their babies are master con artists who can sometimes sweep a woman off her feet, are damn good at playing victim via guilt trips, use of control games, getting others to believe their crap and anything else they say as well. Mommy believes every word they say, because her own life is screwed up, so her sole existence is thru her loser son!
No stepped on toes here! In fact, we’re on the same wavelength. When Super mentioned her weight-loss, that’s when I thought, Now THAT’S something he can document. That’s not an “overprotective Dad” thing to be dismissed.
Also the threats of suicide. As has been noted, this could be a sick ploy to manipulate her but more often than not, if one mentions suicide, one is thinking about it. And if you’re thinking about it, you just might carry it out.
All a long way of saying to take the threat seriously. He could be saving the boyfriend-from-hell’s life, too, though not his intention (and, one is tempted to say, not his problem). Given the way his parents act, I’m not surprised he acts in such inappropriate ways, too.
Apple. Tree. Doesn’t fall far.
Perhaps with the right intervention, he just may grow up to be a responsible man, with or without Sarah. He could learn from this. There’s always hope.
But Super has to worry about Sarah first. Document, record, save ans. machine and voice mail messages…everything!
Super has to worry about Sarah first. Document, record, save ans. machine and voice mail messages…everything!
From what was written, this is really a bad situation (that could get worse very fast), not the normal bad boyfriend thing. That makes it time to prioritize and act, not just talk it out w/all parties and give things time.
Alarm bells are blaring and I know that’s not lost on Super…that’s why I think an “authority” like a social worker should be brought in. Sarah will not be thrilled, but it doesn’t matter. She needs an intervention–quickly. I think Super should still talk to her and remind her that love doesn’t hurt, but at this point I think a professional has to be brought in.
The police don’t get involved in matters like this, do they? Or does that vary from place to place?
Just don’t let this thing escalate. You know domestic violence is real. Read about Yvette Cade. There’s also a very recent story (I think it was reported yesterday) about a young woman who was shot to death by her ex-boyfriend–and said ex-boyfriend also killed their son (!), her father and her “adopted” brother (her family took the young man in and raised him as part of their family).
Super, I think this has gone far beyond what you can solve by yourself. Screw his parents if they want to keep shoving their collective heads in the sand or have their heads up their nether regions. If police involvement is premature, either go see a school counselor or a social worker and document everything for the record.
Super, I think this has gone far beyond what you can solve by yourself. Screw his parents if they want to keep shoving their collective heads in the sand or have their heads up their nether regions. If police involvement is premature, either go see a school counselor or a social worker and document everything for the record.
An authority/profesional w/a credential who has dealt w/situations like this before and knows what he/she is doing is needed, not a grad student doing an internship who still has their head in the textbooks.
A restraining order is sometimes enough to put a halt to this crap, but not often. (I don’t know about other states, but I do know that in my state the cops hands are tied, unless there is a restraining order. And if it has happenned once, it has happenned before and will happen again.)
Thank you for all of your help StreetKid
I want you to know that a restraining order isn’t necesarry right now, though it could be later. He does have all the signs of an abuser in training and he’s dragging her into the frame of mind that’s allowing her to stuff her needs in an effort to make him happy. If he’s happy, she’s happy.
It’s a tough thing to deal with from my position because i really can’t just forbid her, even though that’s what my instincts are telling me to do. I can’t reason with them either, it seems. He’s coming over Monday now instead of tomorrow, and he wants to talk to me on the phone first before coming over. If I was him I’d do the same. I tried for a long time, but I can’t hide my dislike and concern about him and he knows it. She will eventually be free of it.
Your last sentence was the truth. Still ending good thoughts your way. (BTW, I just woke up from a long nap after straightening up and am starting to feel sick again.)
AP – thank you for this reminder of one definition of love.
Don’t forbid, don’t make the creep into a romantic victim. Don’t force them into thinking it’s them against the world and give them delusions of being ill-fated lovers, Romeo and Juliet-style.
Set limits on phone time, maintain bedtime rules, insist on homework, etc. All of these limits and consequences are natural parental areas. But, don’t turn the creep into a taboo; it only adds to his glamour and enflames her rebellion.
Here’s a radical idea: Invite him over. He can’t be interrupting her homework time with phone calls if he’s sitting at the dining room table doing homework with her. Tell her: You don’t like him but maybe, that’s because you don’t know him; you trust her judgment, respect her choices, so you just need a chance to see him the way she does.
The creep sounds like a sick puppy. He could use your positive influence. If you’re nice to him, if you reach out to be his friend then she might see the contrast — your strength, his weakness; your sanity, his insecurity.
Being the mean, bad daddy doesn’t seem to go with your persona, Super. Opposing the creep hasn’t worked. Opposing him even more will work even less. Anyone who threatens to kill themselves is crying out for help. Maybe you can make a difference in this boy’s life and help your daughter at the same time.
I rather like your answer. Up to the point that someone who threatens to take ones life is someone who does not want to do it. It is those quite and reserved ones who do it. Once pushed and is in a corner. One who is feeling threatened but do not let anyone else know of it, especially those around them. At least, that is my take on it. If someone does threaten to take ones life and blame it on someone else is simply a pissant. That is someone who will never take responsibility for their ownself for anything…ever! She deserves someone who is strong and able to do the right thing even under stress. Life is never assured thing. Shit happens and to be strong enough to keep your wit about yourelf and go on during this time of life, is the test one will make one strong. Just look at yourself. Anyhow, I have raised both sexes as a single mom. It is really not easy…and I say this with great concern for the children. I do like sjct’s answer.
Good luck, Dad, keep us informed as to this action of life you choose to take. Maybe when after working and seeing other ppl strive for living she will smell the coffee. HUGS
Oh and one more thing, what does y our other kids say about this? Do they have any pull with her?
Thank you Brenda
I meant to get back to you sooner…
The other two, my son is 19 and younger daughter, 13, privately confide their concerns to us. Not as snitching, but out of love and concern for her. Last night after we pretty much told her that it needed to end sooner or later, she was beside herself and crying for a long time. It’s heartbreaking to hear your kid crying when you know that you’re causing it. The other two heard her too and she knew it. Later when I was out I was thinking about how sweet it would be for them to show her some love. You know, just some hugs and kisses…smiles and affection. They’ve always been close and I’ve always felt blessed for the way they all stick together as freinds and for each other. My own siblings and I weren’t like that. And I see so many families with kids that just out and out despise each other and compete with each other. Anyway, later in the evening the other two went to her on their own and gave her the loving I was wishing they would. Those little things help to remind her and reinforce her place in the family and let her know that she’s loved no matter what. In that regard, we’re all fortunate for each of them.
Excellent advice, sjct!!!
Don’t be phoney around him while trying to “include” him in to your lives. Sarah will see what a prick her first is to you.
Banned Boyfriends are like banned books… they always get checked out more so because they are banned.
Supersoling my dearest, sweetest friend… I am so sorry you’re going through this. As a woman who did date a boy who was just plain rotten for her because I was a rebelling… If my parent(s) had taken sjct’s advice about including him in… I dunno.. But no matter how bad this kid is, no matter how much we can all hate him… pour your energy into loving Sarah.
Because we all know – this is going to end badly for her. And she is going to need to know you love her no matter what.
I broke up with the boy after he hit me. Not hard either but that was my “limit”. The fucker stalked me for ten damn years. Even tried to take money from my Mom’s bank. Even after we left the states. I think he’s dead now because we haven’t heard any thing in years.
You have my number. You have my heart.
Thank you sjct
You had to mention Romeo and Juliet? :o)
All the normal first steps, like limiting phone time, and time out together haven’t worked at all. She feels persecuted and he just plays off of it. Short of forbidding her to see him, the only thing to be done is what you suggest. He’s coming over Monday. At first they were a little confused as to why I’d invite him over. Then they were suspicious. I told her this morning that no, I still don’t like him, but it’s because of how it’s affecting her, and that she’s what matters to me, and she’s the one I love, and she’s the one who’s welfare I’m entrusted with. So, I’ll try one more time to get through to him. Let him know that he’s accountable to me for how he treats her. And that there will be consequences to face. Meaning talking again to his parents. Talking to his guidance counselor. the police if need be.
Thanks
Oh, Super, this is so hard for you. And for her, too. It was easier when you were the one, the man in her life that she looked to.
I agree, there aren’t any answers, just more things to think about. One of my friends once said you have to start giving up your children from the first labor pain, and I think that’s about right, though some parts of giving up will be harder than others.
You’ve been asking her to choose you over him, and as that hasn’t worked, contemplating forcing her to choose you, over him. I doubt that you’ll be successful in this, or keep your relationship with her undamaged. Teens in their first love don’t see it as temporary, or shallow, or manipulative, or immature.
Whatever she feels, I’d bet she thinks that he needs her more than you need her – and she’s not likely to make any decision about him based on your needs anyway. You’ve been so close to her always – how could anything she does make you love her less, right? If so, making you angry and disappointing you isn’t as risky to her as tearing herself away from him. He’s already shown that he’ll fall apart if she is apart from him. I’m not sure how to say another thing related to this, too, Super, but it needs saying, I think. You’ve done a great deal of helping another person you love, who is very much in need of that love, through lots of troubles. Your daughter, in some way, may be doing what she has seen you do – I’m sorry if that feels out of line, but at least coming from a stranger (me), it may just make you angry.
If you do forbid her to see him, I am quite sure that won’t be successful. You are having to depend either on her willingness to conform to your will over her own, or your ability to literally prevent her from any contact with him.
If you try to prevent her from seeing him, that might work for a while, but I think it may damage how she feels about you, and as Mary suggests, that could be permanent. You don’t think she will run away – but I have seen children run whose parents were certain their kids would never run. There are also ways to “run” without going away; I’m sure you can think what they are. She might be physically present, but that’s about it, with most other actions designed to communicate her displeasure with you. And running will occur, the instant it can legally, unless this boy has moved on.
What I fear, is that this may become her first really serious attempt to show you she is an independent adult, (which , of course, she isn’t). With an escalating conflict with you, it is possible that she will become unable and unwilling to talk to you about concerns that she may have about him. That would be to invite you to say “I told you so”, and few teens so invested in another relationship could do that easily if at all.
A few practical suggestions:
Is there a way to bring a third (adult) person, more neutral, into this discussion, someone she can talk to and who can talk to her? Not as your agent, nor hers, but a person she’ll be able to turn to without loss of face whether to deal with how she feels about you or him, whatever you decide? Maybe you can ask her to see a counselor, either as a condition of having more freedom in her activities related to him, or to deal with her anger at you?
If you decide not to forbid her to see him, can you yourself spend more time with this boy, or with the two of them together? Sometimes young guys will become less enthusiastic about a girl when they realize they are not just involved with her but also her family. (I’m not meaning you threatening him, but doing stuff with him, even with gritted teeth.).
Is there a shelter for battered women nearby where your daughter could spend some time as a volunteer? I knew one family who had their daughters volunteer there as a condition of seeing particular boys – X hours per weekend for some number of weeks. The girls absorbed important information from other people somewhat better than the same info from their mother.
Finally,(perhaps you have done this) if you heard of more suicidal threats from this boy, I suggest seeing the kid’s parents in person if you can; by phone if that’s the only way, and telling them each and every time he makes such a threat. And if the parents are unresponsive, I suggest contacting the high school counselor where he is in school (if he is) and telling that person. Furthermore, it would be good to let him know you had done this because you were very concerned for his safety and his mental health. If he is crying wolf, he is likely to stop doing this as a result of your actions. If he really is in that degree of distress, this might get him help, something your daughter is not in a position to do.
Oh, more than I should have said, sorry Super. My heartfelt sympathies for you and your daughter.
Not too much at all. Thank you for the depth of your response. It’s important to point out though that I’ve been very deliberate and honest with her about how I feel. I’ve done all I could to not let it seem that I’m asking her to choose between him and me. She may see it that way, but it’s not how I’ve approached it. Nor have I ever expressed disappointment in her. Quite the opposite. She has my understanding. I let her know that I appreciate that she’s a loving person and is in love with this kid. It’s a difficult line to walk. How to let her know that I trust her judgement when everything I’m telling her proves that I don’t. When I appeal to our bond and trust it’s in the context of reinforcing what I thought she always knew about me. That I will always have her best interests at heart, regardless of the anger she might feel towards me. And that as unpleasant as it is for her and for me, I’ll choose what’s right and needed over my discomfort with having to set limits with her, even strict ones. A parent can be as open and honest as possible and try to talk things out in a reasonable way, but sometimes it comes to a point that you need to be firm and just tell it as you see it. Even if it means that the conversation stops. Of course the door is always open and there’s never a time when things can’t be talked through again. But if she becomes so opposed to listening or considering what is being said to her, then I think it just needs to be shut down and thought about alone for a while.
I’m also painfully aware how my inability to remove myself and them from a bad marriage runs counter to what I’m trying to convey to her. It’s hypocritical to say the least, and I’ve made things so much more complicated because of it. How can I teach her that you can’t possibly fix someone else when I’ve fallen into the same pattern more than a few times? I can’t. It damages my credibility with her.
I need to go, even though I want to respond to your comments and suggestions more completely. Especially regarding an outside source of help and anonymity for her. I have been thinking of that and have a person in mind. Someone who saw them years ago and who they trust completely.
I’ll get back to you later…and thank you so much.
You sound like a great dad. 2 things I don’t agree with:
How can I teach her that you can’t possibly fix someone else when I’ve fallen into the same pattern more than a few times? I can’t. It damages my credibility with her.
It shouldn’t. You’ve been there, you’re trying to help her avoid making the same mistakes you made. If she suffers even slightly as a result of your bad decisions, it should increase your credibility. Not saying she will listen, teenager and all, but her having to learn for herself the same lessons you had to shouldn’t damage her opinion of you. You’re being too hard on yourself.
How to let her know that I trust her judgement when everything I’m telling her proves that I don’t.
I wouldn’t let her know if it was me, you would be lying to her. You don’t trust her judgement, that’s just reality. Part of codependency is having really lousy judgement, that’s why it’s usually best to get advice on tough decisions from objective people you trust. What you want to do is let her know you support her right to make her own decisions even when they’re stupid, and tell her she can trust you to be honest and reliable whenever she needs help.
Thanks Shalimar
It’s not that I’m directly telling her that I don’t trust her. But it has to be obvious to her, otherwise I’d be hanging back and letting it take it’s course. I should have said that it must seem so hypocritical to her. You know, I can even remember feeling that way about my own Mom and Dad not so long ago when they presumed to lecture me about my kids. I thought, who the fuck are you to tell me anything about raising kids. It’s impossible to avoid, no matter how much she’s told that my motivation is to help her to not make the same mistakes.
Thank you
She’s got to learn, and all you can do is help her do that. Ask her how she would feel if you forbade her to see the guy, and how she feels about him forbidding her to see other guys. Ask if she wants to be responsible for your life because you’ll have to kill yourself if she doesn’t obey you. How can you love someone who sucks all your spirit away without giving you anything back? Is that really love, or what? What does she want with a man who controls her life when her father isn’t supposed to do that? I don’t know, but just make her think about it. Don’t dominate the conversation, let her answer. Soon she’ll see that she’s not all that happy with him.
I had a boyfriend who was really bad news, and I didn’t think so at the time. My parents never said a word, though my brother did. I knew what they would think. I never really saw it until a friend kept asking me questions about it years later.
I think that girls grow up to emulate their mothers, but dad is a powerful influence too. Mom might be emotional, Dad might be logical – who knows, we do need both.
Patience, dear Super.
Thank you Alice
You would think that turning the tables on her with questions like the one’s you’re suggesting would make an impact. I hadn’t thought to do that. Mainly I think because I’m really reluctant to make this a him or me thing. I’m not competing for her loyalty, though it probably looks that way to her. Maybe not…I really don’t know. Another thing that I’ve come to see that I don’t know. I know deep down that forbidding her to see him won’t work. No matter how frustrated I am and close to making it so. I’m running out of ideas really. That’s why I’m here…asking.
Ask her how she would feel if you forbade her to see the guy, and how she feels about him forbidding her to see other guys. Ask if she wants to be responsible for your life because you’ll have to kill yourself if she doesn’t obey you. How can you love someone who sucks all your spirit away without giving you anything back?
A thousand “4s” to you. This is great advice.
This is a really hard situation.
On the one hand, your daughter is nearly an adult and won’t listen or probably obey you. One the other hand, the guy’s behavior is very troubling.
My daughter married a manipulative jerk. I sensed in my gut it was going to be horrible. He abused her emotionally, but not physically. He had serious psychological issues and refused help. She left him within 7 moths, but after some time she healed.
She did better than her Mom did. My first husband was emotionally, sexually and physically abusive. I finally left him and he fell apart emotionally. I went to see him (stupid). He was crying and despondent. He picked up a noose he had made and walked to the back of the house. I followed him. He beat the crap out of me and tried to strangle me to death.
I don’t know where on the spectrum your daughter’s friend falls, but he is exhibiting classic behaviors indicative of an abuser. You are very right to be concerned.
I would suggest you contact a local group that deals with abuse and find out what resources are available to you and your daughter. She may resist counseling, but you ought to consider it for yourself. There are professionals who deal with abuse against women and they may have suggestions or strategies that we lay people do not. They may be able to help assess the threat. This is really important. Please do it.
Now here is the really hard part. Ultimately, she will make her own choice. If she chooses badly, it will rip your heart out. Keep open to her. Keep loving her fiercely. After the debacle of my first marriage, my mom — who had strongly opposed it — was there for me big time. I could not have healed without her.
I wish there was an easy solution.
Much love and prayers to you and your family.
Thank you Kahli
First, I wish sometimes that I could just jump out of here and hug all you guys for being so giving and compassionate, and another hug for all the bullshit so many of us have had to live through. AG ended his first comment with a reminder, that its all about love. He’s so right.
I share the same feelings about this relationship as you did with your daughter. I want so much to be able to just lay back and watch her grow and become more independent most of all. I do have faith that she’ll see it sooner or later. It’s all the things that could happen between now and then that are freaking me out so much.
Thank you so much :o)
families would send their girls abroad to take them away from suiters they did not care much for. Expensive solution, but my youngest spent 4 months in India on a 4-H program that allowed her to stay with at least 4 different families there. She was suffering from some depression after her father died and I think the India trip did help her immensely. Maybe there is an aunt she can stay with for a short time?
My oldest had a long time boyfriend that did not like me. They lived together for several years and finally split up when she went to college out of state. He wasn’t as bad as the fellow you are describing, but I was very grateful when they split because if they had had children together I wouldn’t have been able to see them. She and her current husband of 21 years have split up and for me, it is as if I am reliving all the anguish I had when she chose her boyfriend over me. However, I truly believe there is only so much I can do for her. I can be there for her and I can make suggestions and I can even fuss at her about some things (not many because she will rebel even at the tender age of 45!)
For all three of my children I have urged them to go to counseling many times. And they have sometimes gone and sometimes not gone. Counseling has sometimes helped and sometimes not helped. But if she puts up with emotionally abusive behavior now, it will only get worse in the long run. Recently a friend of my middle daughter married a man that we recognized early on had anger management problems. We told her flat out that the marriage was starting off wrong, but she went ahead. Later he pulled one of his tantrums and let her off in a very unsafe area and she finally realized she had to leave him. There is a lot of literature about such things, check with your local violence prevention center and see if they have such a thing as a check list of “how to know when Mr. Right is really Mr. Wrong!”
But know, no matter how it goes that there is only so much you can do now. And just let her know that you will be there for her whatever happens. Some things are unavoidable so forgive yourself for not being able to give your daughter all the protection that you want to give her.
Thank you GranmaJo
If she were older I wouldn’t have a choice but to let her make her own decisions and deal with the consequences of them. I hope to be able to influence positive choices for her in the future, but that’s about all I could hope for. Someday soon I would wish for her to see me as her friend as much as her Dad and that she would feel comfortable confiding more in me. Even though as a guy, there’s things that we won’t ever discuss, nor should we. To send her away would be about as heartless a thing that I could do. Geographical changes generally don’t work. I’m glad that going abroad helped your daughter, but this situation is beyond depression.
Only what I did. And it was a different situation.
VERY different.
Same age though.
And maybe…very broadly…something of the same solution.
My son…gifted, bored by his suburban school and suburban life, hurt by a divorce, living with his mother but closer to (and more like) his father..,began to shut down at about 13-14 years of age. Right after I moved out. I stayed in the same town and saw him every day, but I watched in horror as he just…shut…down. He’s pretty inward anyway, and things were going from bad to worse. The only thing that had saved him from the whole drug/I-don’t-give-a-shit-world was his long-term involvement in the very high-level martial art Aikido and his very high level teacher in that art.
He was getting into fights with the jocks at his high school…and winning…because they wanted him to play football and he had no interest in ANYTHING that crude, and his marks were plummeting.
For his senior year, my ex-wife found an alternative school in our area…30 miles away…that specialized in troubled, gifted kids. I swear to you…within three weeks of being in that school he was a new man. Surrounded by the stupidity of typical middle-class education…his local high school specialized in the typical American “We send people to IVY LEAGUE schools so we MUST be good!!!” kind of George Butch multiple choice fakery that has so harmed the last several generations of gifted Americans…he had been wilting on the vine from lack of challenge. In the new school, surrounded by teachers that gave a shit and students who had real personal power even if they DID also have what the rote-learning assholes who run the school systems like to refer to as “issues”…he bloomed.
He is now a sophomore in a prestigious, small college that offers a truly open system of education, has changed his major from his original one to something that more closely fits his talents and personal tendencies, and is seriously considering pursuing a doctorate.
And…he is HAPPY.
Mostly.
You have a radically different problem. At least the symptoms are different.
But the ROOT of most of the “problems” that line-level intelligent kids face here is the same. They are not given much room to think or create in school, so their energies and talents tend to drift off into negative pursuits.
Find out what she really DOES. What she loves. I don’t care if it’s nuclear physics, sewing or volleyball. And then go whole hog plus postage in finding the highest level of that thing that is available to her given your present circumstances. If you can…and can convince her to go there…find another, better school as well.
If she is really DOING something, the asshole will fade. If she is not, then the only interest in her life will be her negative emotions. Which can be REALLY interesting, witness the lyrics of most of the popular music of America at present just for starters. And which this boyo can obviously provide in massive doses.
That’s all I know.
That and love.
Good luck…
AG
Thanks AG,
I remember well our too short conversation about our sons and how gifted they are. I’m glad to hear that despite a divorce your ex-wife made the decision that finally got your son turned around. I agree wholeheartedly that you have to facilitate a kid’s dreams as best you can and see to it that they’re talent is fully explored and supported. Sarah has a magnificent voice. She’s consistently asked to sing at school functions because her range and style are far superior to the average school choir bland whitebread music. We are fortunate that the school does have a strong music program and despite the limitations of public school, they do recognize that she is far above average. My son’s band seems on the verge of a breakthrough now, opening for a label signed band tomorrow and meeting with a Manhattan booking agent next week. As I told you, he’s going to school for recording arts and since he’s coming into contact with more and more people in the business we’ve asked him and he’s interested in recording Sarah and helping out with getting her some real exposure beyond the local school. Obviously she’s still too young, as far as I’m concerned, to have too much exposure to the music business and culture, but it’s the only way right now to help make her dream of singing proffesionally a reality. It’s not possible to send her to an arts school now, but hopefully in the near future that can become a reality too.
I say all this because we’ve also appealed to her to remember that dream. For her to try and see for herself how this relationship is draining her and making that dream less and less possible. So far nothing is helping enough to make her see it. i know I can’t make her see it anyway. But it’s tough to sit back and watch her self destruct over this little creep.
Thanks for all your wise words and encouragement.
Super, I was your daughter. I ended up pregnant and married at 17 years old. The whole course of my life changed dramatically because of those circumstances. My mother had even offered to get me the pill and I could only say “Whatever for?” We seperated a year after my son was born.
First, as others here have said, if her safety is at stake you must use tough love immediately. I would also report his threats of suicide to not only his parents but to the authorities(child services or the police).Will she hate you for this? Most likely but that will pass when she figures out you may have saved her life and not just from abuse but the consequences of being a mom too soon and missing out on so much of her youth.
One question. Have you made them sit down with you together and discuss the situation? It may be worth a shot. I am more than willing to talk with your daughter via email or phone just maybe give her the perspective of a woman who has been there with a very manipulative boyfriend. You have the email addy so please feel free to use it. Hang in there my friend.
Gulp!!
Her getting pregnant is the last thing I want to think about and the first and most important thing beyond her safety that needs close attention. I can’t honestly say that she wouldn’t get pregnant purposefully. MaryB asked this question of me above. As I see her rebelling more and more, I’m less confident in her ability to grasp just how detrimental that could be to her future. I’m thankful now for our efforts early on to open communication about birth control and safety regarding sex. So far it’s paid off greatly. For her and her older brother. But it’s becoming obvious that she’s in no mood to be told what to do and who to see, and see’s any attempt at protecting her as just our desire to make them break up. And in that frame of mind she’s capable, I think, of using her body as a tool to make what she would consider a final act of defiance and control. I wish it weren’t so. And I wish I could say that she was taught better, but she wasn’t, unfortunately. The chickens are coming home to roost I guess, and it’s time to pay for all the past mistakes.
When I took her to school this morning I asked her what she thought about seeing the counselor, a woman, who helped them through difficult times in the past. I told her it could be a good place for her to feel safe talking about how she feels and how she percieves things. She wasn’t too eager to talk about it, but I’m going to pursue it. She can’t defy that effort. I will absolutely make her go, at least for a time, and hope that this lady can get through to her and help her come to the right decision on her own before something permanent and as damaging as pregnancy happens.
Thank you so much Leezy :o) And thank you for your offer. I will certainly keep you in mind.
The counselor sounds like a great idea. Now for the really bad news so think about this. I USED getting pregnant to get out of the house. I hate to admit that but it’s the truth. just more to chew on Super. And again, I am available if you and your daughter want an outside objective person. I do hope though that you get her the counseling NOW before something else happens. Love ya Super and just remember you are one great dad. I knew that when you wrote that first diary asking about how to be a better father.
and I am sure you know this but no matter what she does, it is not a reflection on you as a Dad. She is ultimately responsible for her own actions.
Is there no high-level voice teacher or program that you can manage?
Juliiard extension, for example. There are others.
I know it’d be a long trip in and out of NYC…but that would be hours away from boyfriend, at the very least.
A really serious vocal teacher…beware, there are as many quacks in this field as there are in every other…or someone who could teach her keyboards/harmony/theory would be another way to do it.
Or a great ensemble. Even a church choir. Some are outstanding.
ANYTHING other than gansta wannabe fools.
Good luck…
AG
Hi Super, I totally understand your situation as I went through it with my own daughters and now I see the same thing with my grandaughter.
Funny that you wrote about this, just when I was thin king about writing something from the other end of this. My daughter who is now 30, first met her now husband when she was 15…we knew right away he was bad for her, same scenerio as you have described. We tried many things, from forbidding them to see each other to counseling. The forbidding didn’t work, counseling brought us a counselor who focused on ‘my daughter should be a model’ instead of her problem with boyfriend and after that I couldn’t convince her to try another. Soon pregnancy changed everything.
Now we come to the present after 15 years with this guy, 3 kids, 1 new baby and the other night he went on a drinking binge, went into his crazy drunk fighting scene, bar called the police, they called my daughter, but wouldn’t let her take him and they released him to my son, who then had to deal with this crazed creature for hours until he could no longer convince him to stay at his house. Why the police released him I will never know!!!!!
The reason, he thought, thinks she is cheating on him, (she isn’t), but his jealousy never leaves him. I don’t want to talk more about this situation except to say that I have suggested and suggested that they go to counseling, till finally I have decided they are never going to and I just have to accept that.
Now in retrospect I wish we had done more to stop it at the beginning, anything in our power. Yeah she would have hated us then, in fact did for our actions, but her life of conflict and intermittent pain has been far worse. Not what I wished or wanted for my daughter.
Bottom line, yeah parenting goes on forever, there is often little we can do to change the course of our children’s lives, we do the best we can and must(hopefully) accept that is all we can do. I do wish you the best, I know what a tough time it is for parents. Hugs and much love to you!!!!
my hope for my daughter has been the idea that she is young and life is long and who is with the guy they met when they were 22 anyway….like she is not going to be with this guy im not crazy about forever….then i read your diary and now im a little scared i guess….im wondering if she will stick it out with him….i hate the way he treats her…i feel like she should know better and just dump his ass….she keeps sticking with him…she has never had a healthy relationship…ok she is only 24 but she is an old 24….we have always been very good with boundaries and not being enmeshed…we are very very close and we give each other advice but i know on my end its always tempered….i have never told her to her face that her i think her boyfriend sucks…he and i actually have a very close relationship that predates their relationship….he is a cool guy..he just has issues that affect the way he treats her…its a fine line i walk….wanting inside for her to do what i think is best but not wanting to put that all out there for fear it will alienate her…so what i try to do is lead her to the right frame of mind….to the right (according to me of course) understanding of her situation….the good thing about getting old really is the wisdom you accumulate from all the fucking up you do through the years….and i have done a lot of fucking up….i just know that the message has to be delivered in a certain way that its not confrontational or overbearing…i guess its kind of sneaky….getting someone to do what you think they should do without them knowing you did that so they think its their idea.
this is where all that time studying neuro linguistic programming comes in handy.
Hi Anna, another daughter of mine started to date a boy, who was a friend of her brothers at 16, he seemed good at the time, for a short term relationship, because as you said I never expected it to last. As the years went on and I observed their relationsip I was concerned as he ‘put her down’ all the time and she had adapted to it and always had an anternative explanation for his behavior. At some point I mustered the courage to point this out, in more than just hinting, and she rejected entirely my suppositions.
Then this year, 6 years into the relationship, she finally saw the light and ended it. But by this time they were living together and it was not easy, he still calls her all the time and writes hate and worse text messages to her. She does recall me pointing all of this out to her, but says she didn’t want to hear it, but it did stay in the back of her mind and all came together at some point.
There is of course no easy answer to all of this, but my suggestion is to take course of laying it all out there.
Also to Super, what age is the boy, if he is over 18 you may be able to restrain him from seeing your daughter and in any case I would see about some typeof restraining order. Perhaps your local police have a social officer to whom you could talk. One thing, be sure to write every incident down, times dates and particulars, even if you don’t go the legal way now, you may need these details in the future.
First, let me apologize if I repeat someone else’s advice. I have limited time on the internet here at the hotel and didn’t have time to read the responses.
This creep is grooming and manipulating Sarah by making her feel responsible for his well being, in fact, his very life, with his suicide threats. You know the logical progression of that and that it will not get better with time, only worse.
If you forbid her to see him he’ll just become more attractive to her and she’ll see him one way or the other – she’ll go underground.
My puny advice would be to develop a very up close and personal relationship with this guy. Invite him to dinner, go along whenever you can when they go out. You have the right to impose curfews and expect them to be followed and you should do that. The old thing about keeping your friends close and your enemies closer would apply here.
Beyond that maybe you could find a book or print out some personal account of an abused girlfriend or wife so she can see the very common and predictable pattern of abuse that starts with possessiveness and limiting exposure to friends and family and progresses to threats of suicide and physical abuse. He’s not special. He’s an abuser in training and hopefully she’ll realize that.
And on a very personal note I hope that she’s armed with good knowledge of sexual health issues and is on the pill.
good luck. :/
Thank you Second Nature
Yep, yep, yep.
All that you said…I see. I’m making an attempt to get him closer again. Short of drop kicking him across the Long Island Sound, it’s the best advice. Along with attempting to get her more focused on her own dreams, her music, and getting her someone to give her an outside perspective that’s safe for her to confide with.
Thanks for taking your limited internet time and giving some of it to me. Really.
I like Second Nature`s take.
I went through the same thing with my daughter. I beat the fool down once & that didn`t stop the relationship. Then I talked to his father who didn`t know his kid was stealing from his bank account. He asked me to give his son a job & wanted to pay me whatever I was to pay his son. He started working for me but ran away within 30 mins. He just bailed & explained to me later that he couldn`t face me. I had him over to the house many times & gritted my teeth everytime. My daughter kept getting to see him more & more as I & others did. They had two kids. He went to rehab & stared an affair with an underage kid in rehab also. While out on bail, he was charged with sexual acts with underage kids & supplying drugs to them. Now serving an 8 yr. sentence with 3 left on his sentence, he`s being held in close check by some of my “inside friends”.
My daughter who had wanted emancipation & which I flatly refused in the courts, now is the most grateful daughter I always knew she was. She can`t believe that after all she had put me through that I hadn`t just signed her away.
I understand you are a single dad from your diary. In my situation, at the age of 2yrs.,11 months & 12 days her mom died, so I was a single dad also & did come through everything, against all odds to have two beautiful granddaughters & my still lovely daughter.
The moral. Never give up on your daughter. She will come around hopefully sooner than later. That shithead boyfriend of hers although obviously not good enough for your daughter is also not good enough for you to risk jail time over. I give you the last bit because I risked my own freedom trying to preserve my daughter`s from her shithead. I`ve read a lot of good advice here Teacher Toni & Kidspeak come to mind although all the advice was very nice, showing the support you have. I believe it won`t be long before your daughter remembers how much you love her. In the end there`s never a solution to your problem, only Karma. This has been the bane of parents since there were parents. Good Luck
Thanks KNUCKLEHEAD,
Sorry to hear that you lost your wife that way. I don’t know how I’d deal with something like that. I guess I’d just deal, one way or another. I’m not a single Dad now, but it seems like it a lot of the time unfortunately. I will be single again soon though, hopefully. And no, I’m not crazy enough to go after the kid physically. Even if he was grown it wouldn’t be a fair fight and like your situation, I doubt it would bring about any change in my daughter except to really make sure that she hated me for a long time. As far as keeping him close goes, for the first 6 months or so he was welcomed into our home. I did what a Dad is supposed to do. I was friendly to the kid but let him wonder enough about me to keep him straight and narrow as long as he was around. You look a kid square in the eye and give a nice hard handshake when you tell him you expect him to treat your daughter the way she deserves to be treated. In hind sight I don’t think the kid gave two shits about anything i said to him because it wasn’t long before he started openly defying the rules we set down for Sarah and began lying to us and pressuring her to bend the rules. One of those lies was the direct cause of the bullshit with his parents. When it’s 11 o’clock at night and you tell your kid it’s time to hang up the phone and he won’t allow her to do it, knowing that we’re standing right there, and this happens over and over, with her getting caught in the middle, I don’t think there’s any room left for dinner with Junior, you know? I wish I could just twist him up and make him go away. Others, with good intentions have suggested trying to help him because he obviously has many problems. Under normal circumstances I would do that for him. But the truth is I don’t care one bit about his problems beyond how they’re affecting my daughter. She’s all that matters to me. He’s cancerous, and now he’s malignant.
It seems you`re addressing the problem well by asking for advice & I`m sorry I really have none to give, but have faith that she thinks well of you even if it doesn`t show. I`m confident that with her upbringing she`ll be happy you didn`t give up on her. What I remind people of is that kids have never come with an owner`s manual.
Btw OT, but I should be sending you a mag in the next few months with a picture of a classic biker in it. You know what I`m talking about. The issues run about 4 months behind, so it shouldn`t be too long now.
You just made my day! And a classic he was. I can’t thank you enough.
you dont need to deal with her situation as much as you need to recognize and deal with her issues.
from the little you have written it sounds like she is codependent, a people pleaser….i have a very intelligent very strong daughter but she is also codependent and a people pleaser when it comes to her boyfriend…fuck she got it from me and i evidently taught her well…i think you should do some research on codependency and even possibly how 12 step communities deal with those issues….the things i learned in that program still help me deal with things even though im not actively in a recovery program.
good luck to you
Anna, thank you,
You’re right. She is codependent. So am I, and so is her mother. I have recognized that for a long time now. There are a lot of influences at play here that I haven’t mentioned. And she’s trying get happy by fixing him. She’s probably learned that as much from me as anyone because of the nature of my marriage and the difficult presence of mental illness. I’ve written about that here before, so I won’t go into it again. The counselor I’m suggesting to her is aware of all these dynamics and could do some good I think if I can get her there. Twelve step programs… I don’t know. Maybe for me. But not for her. Not yet. Even though I recognize that this kid is a symptom of a more insidious problem that needs to be dealt with.
Thanks for your comments.
Because of my adolescent personal experiences I threatened every boy my daughter dated in high school. I did it with a hug and a heart to heart talk, but the threat was made clear. “If you do anything to hurt or put my daughter in jeopardy with sex, drugs or alcohol you will answer to me.” Her main squeeze dropped out of HS and my daughter eventually told me. I immediately called the boy and asked why he quit school. It had to do with a broken leg, getting too far behind in his classes and the school wouldn’t let him back in. I them went to the principal’s office etc., H e eventually went back to school (he was a year older than my daughter) so started senior year with my daughter. He made honors, went to night/summer school and graduated. He was the first to graduate in his whole family and this was in 1990. I had also told him that no one would keep my daughter from going to college. Because he knew his folks couldn’t help him go to college he broke up with my daughter -out of love. My daughter was heart-broken for awhile, but to this day we are both appreciative of what this boy did out of love. He and I corresponded while my daughter went to college, but eventually I moved out of the area and neither my daughter or I knows what happened to him. We did find out that his two younger sisters both got pregnant and never graduated.
I understand your dilemma and know how difficult the teen years are for all sides, but a parent must be CLEAR with your expectations, rules and the consistency in dealing with and breaches of trust etc.,
Young hearts heal. Suicide threats are serious but are also manipulative at that age. My serious boyfriend in HS used that all the time. He also started doing drugs etc., and that caused his demise a few years after I graduated. Found out years later that his dad was physically abusive and an alcoholic and was the cause of that boy’s issues, not me.
I would talk to your daughters boyfriend somewhere private-man to man – and get as in his face as you can. You have the right to demand answers from one of them. You also have the right to be STRICT, loving and protective. AND some day your daughter if all goes well, will thank you for stepping in.
Thank you Rosee
I’m about to get in his face again on Monday…man to….yet to be determined ;o) I know all too well how threats of suicide are used to manipulate. But it can never be discounted obviously. If this kid ever did that, it would completely devesatate Sarah. But I’m pretty sure he’s manipulating, not seriously considering it. He loves himself too much. Nothing against Gangstas, of course. But he’s gonna have me to deal with, whether he likes it or not. And I’m holding him to the fire for awhile.
SS, I don’t have anything to add to what has already been said. There is some great advice here. As many have said, banning her beau is not the solution. It will only make her want him more. You might try contacting a women’s health service or a women’s shelter and explain your concerns and see if they have any suggestions. Sitting her down and talking about the warning signs of an abusive or controlling relationship might help. If nothing else, like sex-ed, it is something all women (and men) should be aware of.
At any rate, what I really wanted to say is my heart goes out to you. I know you are trying your best and that is all you can do.
Kamakid hasn’t started dating yet, but she is really close to it, and I am terrified. So, thank you for sharing your concerns with us and eliciting suggestions.
Hugs.
Thank you Kamakhya
Don’t be terrified. Be petrified! Lol
It’s a tough line to tip toe. Trying so hard to leave her be. To be her own person, confident in her choices. But seeing something so unheathy for her and wanting to intervene in any way you can. Why do cars come with manuals and babies don’t? :o)
Thanks
Dearest Super – I do so wish I could meet with you, maybe go hear some blues and talk with you about your art – a kind of R & R from life’s issues. Hugs to you ((((Super))))
Some thoughts:
You certainly are excellent in bringing out the best in people – all the thoughtful, caring responses you have received – a returning in kind of all the thoughtful, caring responses you have given.
I noticed how you have spoken your “truth,” e.g., something along the lines of mopping up the floor with this little creep who is dragging your beautiful baby girl down, causing her to injure herself. And how you have moderated that “truth,” recognizing that “mopping up the floor” with the little creep is wrong. Your ability to pause and rethink and revise and even when you deem it appropriate, to apologize, just amazes me. You are very special.
And you have wanted to take “authority,” be the authoritarian – so tempting, isn’t it? Authoritarianism seems so simple, clean, clear, sort of “cut to the chase.” But we want our children to be critical thinkers, to “question authority.” It is such a pain in the buttocks when the authority they choose to question is the parents. Kids are so humbling. 😉
Some people react to stress (danger!) with flight or fight. They take so many different forms. One other reaction is “tend and befriend.” This can take the form of “caring” for someone or something. Just as the two more commonly recognized reactions can range from the “good” level of self defense to the toxic level of self destruction, so too, can the “tending and befriending.” Maybe the co-dependence and people-pleasing Anna from Philly mentioned are the extremes of tending and befriending, a defense reaction gone awry.
I was thinking something along the lines that AG suggested, not knowing your daughter’s talents and gifts. I’m afraid something so personal, self-contained in a way, like singing might be vulnerable to attacks by the boyfriend. I could imagine something said such as, “You care more about yourself than you do me. You are selfish, singing, while I’m in misery.” I don’t know if all the people telling her how good she is would counter his criticism.
So, can her need to care for something or someone be redirected? For example, is there some kind of community service credit required by the school? Could she be interested in organizing a little kids choir to perform during the winter holidays in nursing homes? (Even better would be performing regularly, weekly even, cause folks in homes are often inundated with holiday visitors who all go away after the holiday season.)
And the boyfriend? Finesse him Super!! You are an artist and a sailor – tap into your creativity! You have an exquisite sense of gentle humor – use it.
And now I will qualify anything I have written with one of my all time favorite quotes:
Take my advice. I’m not using it. 😉
Holding you and yours in my heart-thoughts.
Tampopo…thank you so very much
The Blues? And talking about Art? No Fair! ;o) Now I really want outta here :o) A break would really be welcome at this point. Yes it would.
But no breaks for parents! No soup for me :o)
I think that whatever ability I might possess in eliciting compassionate responses must be a result of an evolution driven by a close proximity to so many wonderful and giving souls. In other words, I’m a product of my environment, of which you are an intergal part :o)
I really like your idea about community service and helping little kids to learn and in turn giving again to senior citizens. Brilliant really. That would be something exactly suited to Sarah’s personality :o) I’m going to talk with her about that very thing tomorrow. We’re fortunate, as I said somewhere above, to have a strong musical program in the school here, and very involved and caring guidance counselors here. One of them gave my son guitar lessons after school for free :o) The more I think about it, the more I love this idea.
Thank you for appealing to the artist and sailor in me. It’s a much needed boost. but I doubt that I could finesse this kid, despite my obvious superior qualities and skills! LoL :o) Seriously, he’s a manipulater and an opportunist. I doubt reasoning or finessing him will work. Best to let him keep his healthy fear and continue letting him know that there are consequences to his behavior. However they may present themselves. Better to keep him guessing, while reinforcing her at the same time.
Thank you :o)
You mentioned that her friends are against the relationship. The more she talks to her friends, the better. They may be the first to learn something about him that she’ll find too appalling to stomach.
About a 12-step program:
Before finally resorting to tough love the following year, I gave my son a choice between facing juvenile court or entering rehab. He “chose” the latter. It was a special unit attached to a hospital specifically for teenagers, both boys and girls, with addictions, suicide threats, and combinations of problems. (Their respective teachers gave work assignments for them during their stay). It was excellent — and paid partly by insurance. After three months, the longest of anyone, he “graduated” in a small ceremony, definitely changed for the better.
The teenagers there followed a version of the 12-step program, had psychological one-on-ones as well as group. To repair/improve parent relationships, they also met once a week in a threesome with the psychologist and parents.
What made it work was the friendly power — and insight — of the group when it comes to teens. The more they learned about psychology and how it applied to themselves, the brighter the light.
Sending hope your way…
girl to someone raising an independent girl. She is old enough to begin taking cause and affect on head on and if she is your oldest the only way she is going to take it on is head on and you are going to have to let her. It is hard but you will have to detach at this point. Step out of the way and allow the affect that he has on things to be fully felt by her without the distraction and fighting against protective daddy. Tell her today in fact that you want her to be happy so if having him is what she wants then fine, she has him but he only has her………that doesn’t mean that he has you or he can call you dad or any shit like that. He has a relationship with her period. Treat him respectfully. Emphasize and praise your daughter on everything she does every day that takes care of her. If she questions why you do this, it is because she is growing into a woman and it is your job as her dad to be happy when she is successful at being a grown woman. When she begins to come to you with the things that he has done that hurt…..and she will if you get out of the way and you are taking care of yourself…..emphasis on the fact that you are her father and your wish is for her to be happy. Tell her that you support her in doing what she needs to do to be happy. I survived Phillip so I know you can survive this “whatever” he is. The only way that Phillip went away is handling things the way I described which also meant tying my husband up a couple of times and locking him in the closet over night. The breakup will suck and DO NOT ATTEMPT TO ATTACH THEN EITHER, YOU HAVE TO DETACH! Calling the police when he breaks into your house is fine because he has done that to YOU and IT IS ILLEGAL. You may not catch him the time he does it and pours shotgun shot into piles on your floor but the dog will limp where he kicked her when she tried to bite his ass and probably succeeded! SECONDLY, your daughter is going to end up with a relationship with someone so embrace those who cross your threshold and treat her with respect. My daughter is not me and it doesn’t look like she is going to wait until she has lived a little before getting hooked up. I now have Shane and I embrace him fully and thankfully damn it……..I have been to Phillipville. When they treat each other well and I’m impressed I say so. Phillip has since joined the Army because he didn’t feel like there was anything in life left for him to do and the Army is so hard up right now they embraced Phillip where I did not. He was going to come home after bootcamp and probably cause Shane to beat him up or something like that but he as usual broke the law or something and has been confined to quarters. He did send my daughter a telephone photo of her name tattooed on the side of his waist. She thought it was kind of delightful that some idiot will be buried someday with her name on his wrinkled up old hide. I would have liked it better if he had put it on his forehead…..I haven’t seen Phillip in over a year now because it was finally illegal for him to be within a certain distance of our house or any of our family members and since nobody in the family was willing to save our daughter from him she decided to save herself and we were all here waiting lovingly and patiently for her return.
Tracy,
Just want to let you know I’ve missed your voice around here.
I talk to Cabingirl usually about once a week and she keeps me up to date on a lot of the Bootrib family things. I find myself not disliking Super as I swore once that I did…….I find myself concerned about him in fact knowing that he is figuring out how to survive a Phillip. Man it was a tough road sometimes and I didn’t know if we were going to make it but there wasn’t another option except to make it. I never put much of the Phillip saga up but I told Cabingirl about some of it. The breaking into the house thing sucked……..I used to joke that we were going to live the movie Endless Love and our house was going to be burned down or something. Booman is a very sensitive loving community and what has happened in Iraq continues to tear at the hearts and souls as it rightfully ought to. It is too much to ask right now that the community be able to understand what position and role myself and my husband are taking in all of this. To many people right now one more soldier is one more killer. I have learned to respect that others feel that way and nothing can convey to them in any way, shape, our form that being in uniform right now and deploying could serve any useful purpose. It has been hard for me to understand the WAR FROM WITHIN THE MILITARY RANKS that has taken shape but I have seen it take form before my eyes and that is the only way I know it even exists. My husband is emotionally and physically invested in the structure that protects and sometimes only professes to protect the United States under disgusting leaders. We have fought many battles over all of this standing in our kitchen and we aren’t the only ones who have fought the fight getting to the war from within. The US will still need a military after all this horror has found an exit strategy and soldiers who have much of themselves invested in military service seem to get that they must somehow survive all this, prevent whatever atrocities that will ever be within their power to prevent, and rebuild what has been so blatantly destroyed, tarnished and smeared, and blown to hell. It is hard to understand any of this though in this current climate without having these soldiers right before your very eyes explaining all of this….and if they did and the current leadership heard about it they may even attempt to bring on some kind of trumped up charges or something. When Shane thought about joining the Air Force last May we asked him as people who will probably be his future Mother and Father-in-law to not join. We asked him to go to college and after the madness is ended if he still wants to serve then fine. He started college this fall. We don’t need any new cannon fodder and the old farts are going to do whatever they can to hold the ground they have. I look forward to taking back the House in November…..may we all find some Shelter. In my next life I’m marrying a Baker or a Candlestick Maker though! Be Well Everyone
In case you see this Tracy,
These are passionate times, no? Dangerous times for so many…like you and your family. For all of us really. But you? Much more. I can’t speak for anyone else, but I can tell you that it’s rare for a day to go by when I hear more bad news and don’t wonder about you and how you are. I think about your son. I think about your daughter and how you two got through what it looks like I’m getting ready to try and get through with my daughter. And of course I think about your husband and his comrades. I try to put myself in their shoes. And while I’m certain I would see things different than he does, that can never take away the respect I have for those like him. Even if I vehemently disagree with what they’re doing. Our senses and our loyalties are being challenged every day. And at least for me, a once proud American, it’s been a shameful and heartbreaking journey to where I am today. I want to be proud of my country again. I want to be able to believe that individuals within the military who haven’t been morally corrupted yet will make a stand against their real enemy. Some retired generals finally are. But not enough. Likewise, there are way too few regular people who are doing their part as citizens to protect the country and the military from it’s real enemies. We’re all caught in this fucked up mess. And we’re all responsible for getting us out of it. I fear for my family’s safety the same way you fear for yours. The danger is there for all of us. But some are closer to it right now than the rest of us. I’m sorry to know that that shit is constantly on your doorstep. It’s not fair. None of it is fair.
I have a lot of flaws Tracy. And a lot of my patience and sensebilities have been compromised in this whole mess. But I haven’t lost my ability to recognize good people when I see them. Time is getting shorter in life, and in this race to oblivian these freaks have us all on. I don’t wish to waste any of it fighting with those I know who stand on the same side as I do. And I don’t think that we can spare losing passionate and tireless fighters either. That’s why, out all the responses I got to my concerns here, your response, more than any other, lifted my spirits. That’s why I hope you come back here with us some day. Kahli isn’t the only one who misses you.
With respect always,
super
If we take the House in November every day is going to be a political war on our soil but we have hope again, we have some pull, we have some say, things have a chance of being different finally. No powerlocked president can order our troops around any longer. It has been so hard though witnessing my party crying out for something to be done about Darfur and yet sometimes despising those in uniform. We would most likely need those uniforms to really be able to stop the genocide in Darfur. There are soldiers who know this asswipe in chief is only a snapshot in time. It’s odd but I don’t worry about my husband as much as I once did. I suppose it’s because he has a clear mission and if he is killed in Iraq his mission is not George W Bush’s mission or the Neocons mission. If he didn’t go they would just find someone else to replace him who would do God Knows What…..or they would hire a contractor to replace him and that person owes nobody any explanations for anything that they do. So my husband is still fighting evil doers but not the evil doers that America’s pulpit pounder spouts off about. They offered him a National Guard slot as a Cobra instructor and liaison between the Guard and Army, it’s an offer though…..he doesn’t have to take it because it isn’t an active duty slot and he’s active duty. He said no thanks, we all know they deploy the Guard about as much as they deploy active duty and he wants no part of helping anybody abuse the Guard any more than they are being abused. We may have Hitler’s ego for president right now but he can’t control those little decisions that each and every American makes for themselves every day and he is beyond being able to take credit for the decent decisions that decent soldiers make every day either. They are taking back their military as we civilians take back the House and take back our country. If he dies in his attempts to realize this goal…..well hell, we are all going to die someday and it is what he believes in and with all the in fighting at home and work lately lots of soldiers have had to get right down to the nitty gritty of what they believe. It’s every soldier for themselves right now because there is no leadership that is human or humane! Haven’t we all had horrible fights with our best friends too? I find myself asking myself today which I would prefer…….the untested nicey nice friendship where everything has always been peachy or the tested friendship that is tempered? Which is stronger :)?
Because you’re needed, and the truth is this place isn’t the same without you.
I’m not angry with your husband. I know he’s a good man. I know he’s one of many good ones. I’ll leave it at that. And I hope you already know my answer to your last question :o)
Phillip left a voice mail for my daughter today. We haven’t heard from him since the tattoo. He is getting married and having baby. My daughter said she was tempted to call back and insist on speaking with his fiancee but obviously if she didn’t have any questions about that healing tattoo she isn’t an inquiring mind that wants to know.
Super my friend:
You are getting lots of advice, IMO lots of it sound. Don’t have much to add but to encourage you to keep the lines of communication with her open no matter what. Little girls who know they are loved by their fathers tend to grow up into secure women who can love their significant other and accept love from them.
Hopefully, she will come to see the relationship with this young man for what it is. I’m crossing my fingers that this occurs before she is hurt. If it does cause her pain, knowing Dad is still there will help her deal with it more effectively.
I actually had a friend whose boyfriend went upstairs and killed himself (as he had repeatedly threatened to do) after she broke up with him. She was a basket case for months but eventually recognized how emotionally unstable he was and unhealthy the relationship was. I have also had many friends who had to deal with violent boyfriends and spouses.
Based on my experience, I would say that there is absolutely nothing you can do to break them up. The healthiest thing you can do for her is to ignore your own instincts/feelings and stop trying. Your daughter is doing what she wants and nothing you say will change her mind. All judging the shithead boyfriend will do is drive her away from you and into the arms of said shithead.
The same applies to her friends. The more negatives they tell her about him (or even agree with her when she tells them what he’s done, which is usually the way it works), the more she will avoid them because they tell her something she doesn’t want to hear. Just because he treats her horrible doesn’t mean in her mind that they should break up, remember she’s codenpendent and subconsciously believes they will have the perfect relationship if she can change him so he isn’t so horrible. And of course, controlling people like you describe him to be are constantly pushing from the other direction, trying to make sure the object of their affection has no one other than them to turn to and depend on, so he will be reinforcing her flight from friends and family who tell her negatives.
If you want to help her, you have to accept that results might take a long time with no signs of progress for most of it. First step, stop trying to convince her he’s a lousy guy. She already knows this, she just thinks they are in “love” and she is somehow fated to be with him. If she points out his flaws or seeks sympathy, it is okay to agree with her, but don’t suggest those flaws are a reason to break up with him. She will do that on her own, or more likely he will break up with her at some point as a dependence and control mechanism. Second, encourage her to spend time with friends and encourage them to spend time with her. They should avoid talking about the boyfriend unless she brings him up, and even then they should empathize with her complaints or happiness (it generally seems to be 90% complaints from my experience) but not tell her what to do.
The point of all of this avoiding negative remarks about him is to make sure she still has a support network when they do break up, because he will be saying everything he can for their entire relationship to make sure she doesn’t trust anyone other than him. When they break up, then you can put on the pressure to keep her away from him and make sure the split is permanent. That’s when you agree with all the lousy things she says about him, when she is finally trying to convince herself they are reasons to stay away from him rather than just bitching . Try to get her involved in things with you or friends where she won’t run into the ex. Always reinforce her belief that she is better off without him. Most important for you and her friends, do anything you can to build trust with her so that she can depend on you to be there for her when it matters. If he follow through on violent threats against her, do anything you can to put him in jail and get a restraining order against him. If she can be convinced to do this while she is mad at him, it increases the chance that she will have the willpower to stay away.
It’s a hard road. I have seen women fail more often than succeed, usually the codependent women who get involved with manipulators like this get trapped in an unhappy life with the person who “loves” them. Even when they are eventually successful in getting out of the relationship, it is rarely on the first breakup. For all of manipulation and misogyny, the kind of constant attention these guys provide is addictive in a way, and it’s hard to get into the routine of doing without that addictive attention. But it is possible to escape, I have seen it happen several times.
By the way, my experience is entirely with women in their 20s and 30s. I would guess that there is alot greater chance that your 16-year old will eventually move on if she isn’t pushed into only depending on the lousy boyfriend. Watch for signs of violence and encourage her to talk to someone if there are problems, but otherwise give her space. His threats to kill HIMSELF don’t bother me much as this is a sign of manipulative controlling behavior rather than potential violence against others. If there are any signs of a violent personality to go with the suicide threats, that is a much more serious problem.
Having reread the thread, I wanted to clarify something. Her crying on the phone and him threatening to break up with her over something as transitory as lost phone privileges may be painful at the moment, but I see both of those as positive things in the long run. I have seen that pattern in 4 different relationships, and it has lead to multiple break-ups in each of them (though 2 of those couples are still together and the other 2 women had long-term problems with the ex becoming a stalker).
You’re spending considerable energy worrying about how to break them up. From the pattern you describe, it’s going to happen anyway. The key is making sure they stay broken up when it finally does happen.
I would keep in mind that you also need to maintain your own good relationship with her, even though you’re tempted to temporarily sacrifice it to help her. You are right that he sounds like the stalker ex-boyfriend type who has extreme difficulty letting go (even though he will probably be the one to initiate the break-up as a control/loyalty mechanism). She’s going to need you when this relationship ends.
(BTW, I think the counseling you mention is a wonderful idea and it is probably worth sacrificing a little bit of short-term goodwill for).
My thoughts Super are about connecting not just with how much she has trusted you, but how much you have trusted her. All of us have way more innate wisdom than we ever give ourselves credit for. And I’m sure this is true of Sarah too. So many times these things we do that are so damaging to us, have a motivation inside that is an effort to heal ourselves. Its just that the real consequences of our actions sometimes hurt us even worse. I wonder what she is trying to heal in herself with this relationship – if she’d ever be able to identify this and wonder if its working for her.
And I have to ask you and others who read this about your remarks about daughters being at greater risk and therefore, assumed to need more protection. I have to tell you that I DON’T react well to that. My gut reaction is to challenge it – and strongly – but I’m open to hearing pros and cons. I just needed to throw that out there.
Wow SS, you got some great feedback here, so I don’t have much to add and can’t type much with my hands going numb all the time, but just want to say that I can totally relate. My son, now 26, has been going with a young woman for five years who doesn’t like me or my husband, it has been very painful for us since he is our only child and we both love him very much. We both think she is selfish and manipulative and untrustworthy, but we have learned to mind our own business and stay out of it since there is nothing we can do or say to change how he feels and our interference only makes him unhappy. I try to think well of her as much as I can.
However your daughter is younger and she is still a minor and this youngster should know with an absolute certainty that you will break both his legs if he ever does anything to hurt her. That is your perogative as her father. This guy is sounds like a creep, but try to remember that he is still a child, and a very messed up one who probably isn’t getting much real help from his parents. Using threats of suicide to control others is really truly sick.
I agree with everyone who says that the more you try to keep them apart, the more you will drive them together. Don’t ask me why, but it always works that way.
I agree with everyone who says that your daughter should be in counseling, and some family counseling might also be in order if — as you say — she is repeating unhealthy emotional patterns, such as codependency, that she has learned from her parents.
I also agree that you should be on good terms with this guy, if possible, go fishing with him or something. Remember the old saying, keep your friends close, and your enemies even closer.
I also agree with people who say it would be a good idea for her to go away for awhile. If she is a singer, she should take a course abroad, Germany or Italy (there are some scholarships for talented kids that could help you with the expenses) except there is always the danger that he will follow her there.
There is a lot of power in how we think about things. The more focus you put on the negative aspects of this situation, the more powerful those negative aspects become. I can easily see her getting over this guy and moving on, but the more resistance she creates to your “interference” the more attached she will become and the harder it will be for her to break away. Teenagers are such a snarl of hormones, rebellion is biological imperative. Better she should rebel against him than you.
So try to find what is positive and constructive and focus on that. Our destination is what we see in front of us. We go in the direction that we are looking, it’s where we end up, so imagine where you want your daughter to be and focus on that so you can help her find her way.
To all,
I mean to reply to each of you in time, but obviously with the amount and depth of the replies it could leave me with some nubs for fingers 😮
As I hoped, you’ve all given me many avenues to take in how I deal with my part in Sarah’s life and how best to continue protecting her while letting her embrace and own her independence.
One thing that was decided last night was to go ahead and invite her boyfriend over for football and dinner tomorrow. I don’t plan on making a big deal about it, but he can expect that we’re gonna have some time alone, he and I. I won’t threaten him, even though I guess to him I’m threatening anyway. I don’t have a problem with that. A good healthy fear is about all I have right now.
Thanks to you all.
PS
Maybe Booman should start charging for community advice and counseling huh? ;o)
PSS
Tracy,
Thank you
You’re welcome.
I have a million things to do today, but I got up thinking, How’s Super doing today?
Also–and I know I’m echoing someone else when I say this–DON’T BLAME YOURSELF! Don’t beat yourself up. You are a wonderful parent.
Whatever may or may not have happened in the past doesn’t much matter. What DOES matter is that you’re making healthy choices now.
Just thought I’d throw that in there. :<)
SS-was out of town and only read this thread now-I’m so sorry that you’re having these confusing and painful times with your daughter.
I am 55 years old and went through the same sort of thing when I was 17-18. I wish someone had steered me towards counseling, pointed me towards a model of what a good relationship looks like so I didn’t have to spend most of my life trying to figure it out-I’m still dealing with the repercussions today. Good luck to you and your family.
Well Luv, you have gotten wonderful advice from so many who have had first hand experience, there is certainly nothing I can add. I have to agree that forbiding and focusing on the boy’s negative actions only inhances her “need” to protect him from you. But do be very observant of his potential to become a physical abuser, plenty of signs there. Counseling seems very much a good step if she will go and if she already has a relationship with this counselor.
Know that my heart, soul and spirit are with you as you sort out the best ways to go forward. We each have our lessons to learn here and many of them are not very easy. Concentrate within yourself on her highest and best interests and the highest and best outcome for her.
This is a tough one. Know that you have great support and so does she. Breathe deeply and release the tension from your body and heart. Allow yourself to become more peaceful. . .easier said than done, I know.
My unending love and support for you always,
Big hugs
Shirl
Super – I’m so relieved to learn that you have put the get-together off. Now I don’t have to spend my Sunday fretting about you and Sarah and young Mr. X. I keep telling myself these are people I don’t know and I’m too wrapped up in their story. But we have shared something, and that connection must be some kind of love.
I was happy to know that you were having him in your home because I know you’re a good man and that seems to be the kind of influence this boy needs. I just feel sorry for him. (Yes I even feel sorry for george, but not Darth – it’s hard to believe there could be any redemption for them.) We’re all just humans trying to figure out how to be what we’re supposed to be, and that doesn’t end at any age. Sixteen is especially hard, but you’ve got to survive it.
I agree that art is the best way to reach people. I remember watching John Lennon’s evolution through his work. Being completely out of it I have no idea what a young person would respond to nowadays. Certainly an adult who treats them with respect and understanding. I know you can do it.
Words take on an independent existence once they leave our souls and take up residence on a sheet of paper or an electronic comment. Once written, they can’t be softened or explained, only read with the reader supplying all sorts of emotions that are not necessarily there. So, with these caveats, here goes.
Your daughter has two men trying to control her: her father and the creep. I have gone through this with an adult daughter who was in an incredibly stupid and potentially abusive relationship with an asshole. Her mother, my ex-wife, told her what a dick this guy was and how stupid she was for being with him. But all I did was tell her how happy I was that she had found someone to love. How could I act otherwise? I had preached to both my son and my daughter that they would find people who would love them for who they were, and that if this someone demanded that they change that was ipso facto a demonstration that they didn’t really love them. So when she claimed that this man was the one, all I could do was tell her how thrilled I was for her and let her discover that he wasn’t. It’s called life. It’s full of pain and suffering and joy and danger and it’s the only way children learn.
My daughter was diagnosed with a very rare form of stomach cancer. She has survived. She is one tough little human. She will survive for a long time. Going through this ordeal revealed the real character of the asshole she thought loved her. So she dumped him. Then I told her how sad I was for her that he wasn’t the one because she deserves so much to be loved because she is the most awesome lovable little stomachless creature on the planet. And while I was saying all that, I was cheering my ass off on the inside.
You can try to control your daughter and be the second creep she has to deal with (because you’re right, her boyfriend is a creep but he’s probably just an idiot teenager too) or you can ask her to evaluate what people do when they love someone. What does it mean if someone who claims to love you never puts your welfare or emotions ahead of their own? What does it mean if someone who claims to love you seems to always want to make you feel bad about yourself? What does it mean about yourself if you are willing to feel this way about yourself just to “be in love?”
Dad, just ask, don’t answer too. Even though you know the answers. She doesn’t yet. Your daughter wanted you to be happy that she is happy. All you can see is that she is with a little shit who isn’t good enough for her. You’re right. I know you’re right. He is a little shit. But your daughter’s life, even while under your care, is still her life. She owns it, not you, and she will learn how to live it only by living it. Of course, that’s what drives parents absolutely fucking nuts.
Thank you Phronesis
You’re absolutely right of course. The last thing I want is to be competing for her, and that’s what I’ve been doing, no matter my intentions to just continue protecting her. It’s so hard letting go of them under normal circumstances. But to see this happening to her triples my desire to remain influential. Despite the impression I might have given, I, and her mother, have allowed her plenty of room to explore and grow, for better or worse. There were never expectations that any of the kids would miss out on experimenting with different things like sex, pot, cigarettes, etc. And the two older ones have tried those things. But from an early age we’ve all talked about these things and what they’ll encounter along the way. Letting them know that they’re free to come and talk about those temptations, before, during, and after they occur. That approach has worked out so much better than I could have hoped really. Justin and Sarah were both extremely open about their experiences and we were extremely open in laying out our expectations for how they might best handle them. Protected sex has always been the number one concern, and they’ve done really well in that regard. But for Sarah, no matter how much she needs to lead her own life, this situation really is becoming frightening to me, and finally her mother too. Her mother’s patience with her though, was becoming a source of conflict as I saw things continuing to get worse and worse. She finally agrees how bad it really is and sees the potential for increasing abuse. I would have thought that our roles would be reversed, but as I’ve said, I think her mother’s fear of driving her away had clouded her ability to make tougher decisions. Either way, we’re on the same page now and that’s so important. Sarah will be given her space, but I draw the line when she’s in danger. At that point I might have to be the other creep and trust that she’ll see it all in the long run.
Thank you so much
Good Luck Dad.
All the while I was telling my daughter how happy I was for her, my son and I were planning for the day when we would break the guy’s legs. Fortunately for all, my daughter’s creep is an ex-creep and has two functioning legs. Ahhh…Life.
Hey Super, sorry to hear you’re having such troubles. I’ve stopped by a couple times but haven’t posted because I couldn’t think of anything to say. Still can’t. Just hang in there.
Thank you Kelly
It just so happens that hanging in there seems to be my best quality :o) I’m fortunate to have all of you as a resource. We all are.