Isn’t it just a tad bit embarrassing to have the Germans deciding whether our former Defense Secretary, Director of Central Intelligence, commander of our forces in Iraq, and our current Attorney General are war criminals?
I know a few World War veterans and I don’t think they could have anticipated this turnabout. It’s still far from certain that the Germans will let the trial go forward, but there is a surprising potential witness.
A key witness for the bid to put Rumsfeld and others on trial in Germany is the former commander of US prisons in Iraq, Brig. General Janis Karpinski, who alleges she was made a scapegoat for the Abu Ghraib scandal in order to protect senior officials.
I wonder what this means for her pension?
I know that there are a lot of very principled people on the left that would be ecstatic to see our leaders convicted of war crimes. I’m not one of them. At least, I don’t want to see it done in German courts. If American courts came to that conclusion I wouldn’t have a problem.
The question of the International Criminal Court and America’s relationship to it is a complicated question that I won’t attempt to resolve here. But if a foreign court is going to stand in judgment over our military and civilian leaders, it should be the ICC and not our ally Germany.
It’s a symptom of how wide the chasm is between American politicians and the rest of the world that there is no stomach in Washington for even considering the acts of the Bush administration as war crimes. In DC the only debate is over whether we should legalize the NSA warrantless wiretapping as we did the military commissions and detention policies.
I know it wouldn’t be centrist and bipartisan enough for David Broder and Cokie Roberts if the Democrats held hearings on the issue of war crimes, but a failure to address the topic won’t make it go away in the world beyond our borders.
Rumsfeld, Tenet, et al., would be well advised to take whatever vacations they are planning sooner rather than later. It’s quite possible they will find it dangerous to travel abroad after 2008.
Booman, a little off topic here, but a little tidbit for your other diary on impeachment. thought you would love this one.
makes sense to me
Besides I have said in the past even while on kos that conyers has not ever implied that he would go for impeachment, like assumed he would do, but for investigations…then see what happens.
this shows that it wasn’t over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor……
Maybe Rummy will flee to Argentina, haven for so many others of his ilk.
Speaking only for myself, I think the ICC is the best place to try them. And I hope it will come to that.
Bush must be thinking the same because he bought land in Paraguay.
The question of the International Criminal Court and America’s relationship to it is a complicated question that I won’t attempt to resolve here. But if a foreign court is going to stand in judgment over our military and civilian leaders, it should be the ICC and not our ally Germany.
Booman, I know you’ve been preoccupied, not to mention depressed, so it’s no surprise you missed my diary about this subject (“Judgement at Nuremberg for Rumsfeld?” — Nov. 11, 2006), which has a few good links.
As I understand it (I admit my practice wasn’t in criminal law), Bush apparently has immunized his team from prosecution in the International Criminal Court. However, they may still be prosecuted in a locale which has universal jurisdiction, such as Germany.
Two years ago, the Center for Constitutional Rights and other groups tried to interest the German prosecutor, but the case was basically dismissed because the Army had assured the Germans they would deal with the torture charges internally. Obviously, that didn’t happen (and most people, as I wrote in my most recent diary, were not punished, but promoted).
The victims are citizens of a variety of countries, not American. Germany currently has five investigations related to the torture and cruelty issues.
The groups of lawyers representing the victims have a lot of experience in being stonewalled. They are less interested in what is politically correct than where they have the best chance for success.
The embarassment is not that U.S. war criminals may be prosecuted in Germany. It’s that even in a wonderful democracy, our own President shtupped us repeatedly with his legislative agenda, forcing people to go abroad where there is universal jurisdiction to find justice.
Excellent post. I can’t understand why BooMan or any American would be especially opposed to a war crimes prosecution against Rumsfeld and Gonzales and other Bush administration war criminals in Germany.
They obviously ARE war criminals. I can see a lot of ironic justice in that being declared by a German court.
The Center for Constitutional Rights should get the Nobel Peace Prize. They’re my favorite advocacy group these days.
and Hopeful
Bootribs read it here first last week.
There’s all that evidence – the torture memos/directives. Former Brigadier General Janis Karpinski makes a presentation to the court as a witness. In an interview with Amy Goodman Democracy Now Karpinski states”
and imho, not to be out-thumped, (yes, I coined that), Bush will also have a Pinochet moment. Andrew Sullivan points us here:
Here’s the link to Amnesty International’s page about universal jurisdiction. That’s a good jumping off place.
Note that the United States is missing from this list.
What came to mind for me was that maybe Cheney feared a charge like this would come up once Rumsfeld was out of the government. Hence, their great effort to hold the team together for as long as possible.
Especially, considering the earlier efforts in this vein that were dropped.
I read Janis Karpinski’s book and interview on You Too, and listened to it on video. She wasn’t permitted inside the prison block during the night shift, Sanchez’orders, after Miller’s visit to “Gitmo-ize” per Rummy’s orders and “treat them like dogs.” She read Rumsfeld’s written orders to Sanchez and Miller, no “cc” to Karpinski: “Make sure this gets done.” For those branding Karpinski wimp or had blinders on, I say she was a scapegoat. The “few bad apples” were Rumsfeld, Miller, Gonzales, Condi, Sanchez, and Bush, himself. The wrong people are being punished. I wish there was some way we can haul them into an American War Crimes Tribunal. The President just signed a torture bill to DENY habeas corpus and counsel to DETAINEES. Most will remain there for life, according to Miller. They are treated like monkeys and not people. I hope the new Congress will examine this closely. Rummy may be out but Cheney, Gonzales, and Condi are still there to keep him in their clutches. I say this because to me when I listen to Bush he repeats the same thing to the people, never a new suggestion. He can’t fathom thinking it out, getting a new perspective. He is obsessed, and R and C have nurtured that obsession to be a wartime President. But even Bush knew when it had to end, so Rummy was out. However, it wasn’t just them. Rummy did want out, but Bush wouldn’t let him. Bush feared without Rummy. Now under pressure from active and retired Iraq military brass he let him go. But with new leadership in Congress let’s see what Cheney does without Rummy. All he has up close are Gonzales and Cheney. It is known among insiders, as well as anyone with common sense, that Bush is not the “full quid.” He got in because of big money and Florida and Ohio voters manipulation, and gerrymandering. Gen. Pete Pace the Marine CJCS, on TV with Rummy, recently said if any of his troops ever saw mistreatment going on to immediately put a stop to it and report it. Rummy interjected, “You don’t mean WHILE it’s going on, now, do you?” Pace: “Yes, sir, I mean while it is going on, immediately put a stop to it.” I am paraphrasing slightly but I saw it. That was so good. Pace also reported Rumsfeld takes his orders from God. (So does the President.) Enough to make anyone turn atheist.
You are really quite confused on the issues here. These criminals, mass murderers and members of our government, and ain’t that a nice segue, need to be brought to justice.
It seems apparent that the folks on capital hill have legislated away their ability to do this. Which, some experts have argued, is itself a war crime.
I find you jingoist attitude more suitable for LGF and will not be commenting here in the near future as this site seems to have lost it’s way.
Booman…
It’s ALL hype. The more the merrier.
These people are not going to serve a DAY in jail.
Not unless the U.S. is defeated militarily, thoroughly subjugated and effectively occupied by hostile powers.
And THAT ain’t happening.
Bet on it.
Nuclear war for REAL before that ever comes to pass.
I would like to see every country on EARTH hold war crimes trials in absentia for these animals, and declare them guilty, guilty, guilty.
Maybe THAT would wake up the dumb sleeple motherfuckers who still think that war is a game to be won or lost and to the victor belongs the spoils.
All a virtual wargame. No severed limbs, no screams of the dying, no agony, no grief.
Just an SUV in every garage and “What’s on tonite, honey?”
Maybe that would cast a pall of shame over this criminally gluttonous country.
You gotta KNOW that we ain’t gonna do it.
May as well make as many waves outside of our own little cesspool as possible.
ANY attention that is brought to the war criminals who currently run the executive branch of this government and the Quislings who populate the legislature would be constructive.
Anything.
Embarrassed by the moving force being Germany?
Germany, of all countries? Bearing the message “At long last, have you left no sense of decency?”
They certainly should know what they are talking about.
Think.
The HOME of war crimes in the 20th century cannot even stomach this travesty.
And the star witness…?
A General in the U.S. Army who was Hallliburtoned (That’s just another way of saying CIAed, folks. Intelligenced. Think not? Wake the fuck up.) into impotence in the face of war crimes.
“Need to know? You need to know enough to stay in your goddamned ROOM, General Bitch, Sir!!!”
How much lower can we sink?
Maybe we can resurrect Ghengis Khan and have the Mongols try us as well.
The more the merrier.
IMPEACH!!!
IMPEACH!!!
IMPEACH!!!
IMPEACH!!!
IMPEACH!!!
Right on up and down the line.
What’s that?
You say the Dems need to be shamed into it?
Fine.
There is MORE than enough shame to go around.
AG
I hope the actions of this brave woman and those of Cindy Sheehan, Sibel Edmonds, Ellen Mariani, and many others whose names escape me will put to rest the meme that courage requires balls.
Long live the spirit of Jeanne d’Arc.
If humans do learn from their mistakes, I trust that the Germans must be way further along than we are.
not the one you’d like to have. I find that to be poetic justice myself.