You know, there is a certain breed of American that simply can’t get over the fact the American people gave up on the great experiment in Vietnam and that Congress pulled the plug on the project. They happen to be in charge of our foreign policy at the moment, which is a bit of a disappointment for patriotic Americans that kind of care about the direction, financial well-being, and international reputation of our country.
The midterm elections were kind of unambiguous when it comes to what the American people think about and hope for our great experiment in Iraq. And, you know, you go to war with the electorate that you have, not the electorate that you might wish that you have. And anyone that refuses to acknowledge that the electorate doesn’t buy into the idea that we need to continue to roll wheelbarrows of cash and promising lives into the quicksand pits of Iraq in order to fight them over there instead of in the trailer parks off our interstate exits here…well…they are just fighting Vietnam all over again.
I don’t care how great the ratings are for Fox News, the American people will eventually smell a bill of goods when it is held under the nose until the putrefaction is unmistakable.
Word is that Bush is going to respond to the midterms by asking for a kind of Custer’s Last Stand in Iraq. As I have noted elsewhere, this time we actually have a decent argument. We will stay to avert a genocide. How progressive of us. How altruistic! Even General Zinni says it is worth the sacrifice, and I respect General Zinni in a way. He’s the softer face of our imperialistic policies…the face that…you know… made it, perhaps, viable. I gotta tell you, though, Tony, that Armada has sailed. You folks down there in DC in the Establishment are trying to dig your way out of a hole.
The Iraq War will have a reckoning, and one of those reckonings will be the loss of most of what you spent your career trying to support. You sensed this, which is why you got so upset at the mismanagement of BushCo. Bully on you for that. But it’s over.
We didn’t lose Vietnam because the populace lost interest. The populace lost interest because they realized they were being lied to and that the reasons we were there were different from the reasons we had been told. They lost interest because the strategy was fatally flawed and that there was no prospect that escalation would ultimately change the losing dynamics. It was a tragedy of epic proportions. So is Iraq.
Will the fallout from Iraq be worse than the fallout from Vietnam? Did Vietnam sit on the second biggest oil fields in the world?
Of course Iraq is a bigger disaster. Of course we can’t just leave and think the problem is over. But until we learn the lesson that both wars can teach us, we won’t be able to figure out how to go forward. We cannot continue to antagonize people. We have to rededicate ourselves to the lessons we were supposed to have learned from World War Two: collective security, a commitment to peaceful solutions and arbitration of disputes, that imperialism is a failed policy, and that the demonization of religious and ethnic minorities inevitably leads to horrific acts.
We lost in Iraq. We can learn from it and be better for it, or we can keep fighting this war until it bankrupts us financially and morally.
Very well said Mr. Booman & we should remember we`re almost there.
“until it bankrupts us financially and morally.”
exactly what I was going to say!
also in orange.
One thing about Zinni, though: he was against the war from the beginning. Obviously any general in the US armed forces is part of the empire; but it seems to me that our problems in the last few years have not arisen from the military. Or, surprisingly enough, the so-called intelligence community either, really. The madness is largely confined to the political offices. Our current problem is that the upcoming office holders are better than the current ones, but is it enough? …
The failure to learn from Vietnam has resulted in thousands of dead and maimed Americans not to mention over a hundred thousands of dead Iraqis. I am not sure what the figure for injured Iraqis is. This time we need to learn the lesson or we will just repeat the mistake again not only resulting in more needless American deaths but a further erosion of out worldwide standing.
We’ve got to get out as soon as possible. We can’t listen to a general whose motives are at least something that should be challenged. Getting there in the first place should have been challenged; someone, anyone saying that we should stay there longer than we have, should definitely be challenged. I must insist that if you think we should stay then would you be willing to go? Would you walk yourself down to the national guard headquarters and demand that they send you so that you can help straighten our Iraq? Remember this war is being fought by American men and women of all ages. If you would do that then I’ll believe anything that you say about staying the course.
I agree, with a clarification that I think we are already morally bankrupt and heading into financial bankruptcy very soon.
Willie Dixon:
Won’t that be one mighty day
When we hear world leaders say
“We don’t have to cry no more”
“We’re givin’ it up, we gonna let it all go”
Chorus:
Ain’t gonna study, study war no more
Ain’t gonna think, think war no more
Ain’t gonna fight, fight war no more
We’re givin’ it up, we gonna let it go
We’re givin’ it up, we gonna let it go
We will take gun powder to have fun
Then get rid of the atom bomb
Something else that we can do
Get rid of all those rockets too
[chorus]
The money spent on bombs alone
Can build poor people a happy home
Something good we can do
You treat me like I treat you
No more starving in the nation
Everybody gets an education
Everytime a baby is born
We know he’ll have him a happy home
[chorus]
No more sleeping in the street
We all happy whoever we meet
Then we all will shake their hand
And make this world a promised land.
pretty good thinking.
perhaps we can dedicate our nation’s future to promoting peace and prosperity for all, pursuing happiness and equality. if only we had some guiding document outlining powers and responsibilities of the government and citizenry.
last push or a dramatic Tilt. ‘effectiveness over sectarian balance.’ All doomed imho.
Go read this Laura Rozen find, LA Times “Unleash the Shites?
[S]hould the U.S. abandon its efforts to act as a neutral referee in the ongoing civil war and, instead, throw its lot in with the Shiites?
“A U.S. tilt toward the Shiites is a risky strategy, one that could further alienate Iraq’s Sunni neighbors and that could backfire by driving its Sunni population into common cause with foreign jihadists and Al Qaeda cells. But elements of the administration, including some members of the intelligence community, believe that such a tilt could lead to stability more quickly than the current policy of trying to police the ongoing sectarian conflict evenhandedly, with little success and at great cost.”
When ego collides with reality the bodies start to stack up. Whether of husband and wife .. or leader and nation .. wading through the bloody debris left behind narcisistic rulers seems to be the tragedy only of the hubristic mammal we call … human.
Selfishness, greed and pride are just three of the ‘stars’ that adorn our American flag. Light once emanated from the persona we call ‘America’ .. but now ..
the night just keeps getting darker.
We bring our candles to Booman’s house.
The army cannot survive two more years in Vietnam at 5 to 6 deaths a day, plus the multiplier for the wounded. We are now approaching casualty rates that the Soviets suffered in Afghanistan. They can’t be sustained. That is why the brass got in touch with Murtha. The draft is not on the table, nor will it be any time soon, because the public have made it clear that they are sick of wars of choice. The quality of new enlistments is falling, which means that it will take more time to train them, or alternatively, if it takes the same time, they will be less effective in the field and more vulnerable to attack from a seasoned enemy.
As has been said over and over again, there are no good choices here. There must be a recognition by the proper authorities that our force has been defeated. Having accepted that makes whatever next step we take — to stay or to leave — more palatable. I haven’t got the faintest idea what the best exit strategy is. That’s for professionals to work out. But I think that any strategy has to be based on the recognition that we have lost, and that what is called for is retreat. People are going to have to get used to it. The sooner they wake up to the big Defeat, the better for all of us.
I’m from the Vietnam generation. Our presence there slowly escalated. Our deaths there slowly escalated, too. But, it was a compounding curve (just like interest, which dumbfounded Einstein). As we sent more bodies, more bodies came back.
Bush is in Iraq forever (as long as his presidency lasts, and I don’t see him giving it up), and he is immovable upon this. God told him to smite the Iraqis, and all that. God can’t be wrong. The Republicans were making comments about how good it was to continue elections in spite of it being wartime, so this was the second time (at least) they have considered suspending them.
So, to continue his holy war, Bush will have to institute a draft. We will take to the streets in protest, and the government will use its high-tech weaponry (sonics and heat) upon its own citizens. (Why do you think Bush signed the act to eliminate Posse Commitatus at the same time he signed the MCA? October 17th is the day Americans lost all liberty.)
And, because of civic unrest (whether real or merely possible), Bush will suspend the next election, and any following.
President-for-Life will probably continue his glitzy Commander-in-Chief balls to thank the military for its support, no matter how unwilling.
Pax Americana will be a reflection of Pax Romana: a sprawling unstable empire held by mercenaries and men bound to 20-year contracts with a madman at the top. The rest of the world will be relieved to know that it won’t last 500 years.
The oceans will rise first.
Bush will be impeached before that happens. Unless we get hit with a major terrorist or military attack.