A number of members of the community are working together to come up with recommendations for clarifying and enforcing rules for the site. Specifically, they are concerned about how to deal with members that engage in, let’s call it, heated disagreements with other members. How do we define what is acceptable and what crosses a line? What is the best way to deal with behavior that crosses the line?
I want to use this thread to open up the discussion on two different fronts. For the purposes of this discussion I would like us to keep individual members and prior disagreements out of it, at least in the specific sense. We want to talk about things that have happened, but we don’t want to rehash old arguments and have things get personal.
So, let’s keep this general and even if you are referring to a member, leave their name out it.
Here is what I want to discuss.
1. We can fairly easily detect and punish a direct attack by one individual against another. But what if a member takes an attack on an institution, a lifestyle, or something they affiliate themselves with, to be a personal attack? What if they feel that an attack on, say, Christianity, is a personal attack on them?
I don’t want to skew the debate on this, but my feeling is that we cannot include attacks on institutions and organizations in any rule on being respectful to members. But that is not the end of the story. Hate speech is also banned. But what kind of institutions, lifestyles and organizations are protected from not just hate but disrespect is a much tougher question.
2. What is the appropriate way to deal with a member that appears to be suffering in some way and is violating rules?
Can compassion and concern be allowed to bend the rules in any way?
I don’t have a lot of time right now (headed out to a superbowl party), but I think a major problem with the current process is that there is no way to punish someone between non-binding warnings or an outright ban.
Some middle level penalty needs to be there.
Also, giving out troll ratings is problematic because anyone can see who rated their comment that way, and it creates a sense of being attacked and a me vs. them mentality with an easily identifiable ‘them’.
Compounding the problem is that there are comments made that are inappropriate, but are not ‘trolling’. There should be an additional mechanism in place for handling this.
If I had my druthers, there would be a way for TUs to mark a comment as inappropriate without having their handle attached to it. After enough TUs have marked a comment as inappropriate, the commentor would get a ‘time-out’. That is, they cannot post comments or diaries, or rate others’ comments for a period of maybe 48 hours. Or a week. Whatever.
On your second question – I thought so and it does certainly alter my treatment of someone if I know a little about their offline life.
I think when you can’t iron out who started something and two or several people are involved in a shootout you have to stop trying to figure out who’s right and wrong and just give them all a time out. I still don’t think more rules are necessary or advisable.
1. I think there should be no limits whatsoever to the expression of disrespect for any institution, lifestyle or organization. More broadly, I think the only kind of speech that should be restricted is what I have termed “vicious ad hominem attacks.” This is the only way to draw the line that makes sense. Everything else is a slippery slope into the kind of madness that has famously harmed some other big sites.
And if a person persists in interpreting disrespect toward an institution as a personal attack on the person and his family, that person is free to argue strenuously in return, with just one cavet–he may not make vicious ad hominem attacks in return.
Examples are legion. There is one person in particular who is quite active on this site who very frequently makes various levels of slurs on Christianity that I find quite offensive and/or ridiculous. And I’ve gotten into it with this person several times. But I never take it personally. And by continuing to listen, I’ve also found that this person is a close ally on almost everything I believe in most strongly, and this person and I are frequent mutual 4-givers.
As a loudmouthed lefty Catholic, I have more allies with the atheists than with the knothead evangelicals. I can keep things in perspective most of the time, and I think this site can do so to. As I’ve suggested, I think we can make that work better if a community board of some time helps share the decisionmaking on such matters with BooMan.
2. Of course compassion and concern can be allowed to bend the rules! That is the essence of justice. Nonetheless, after a warning or two (which ideally would be given in private), someone who persists in vicious ad hominem attacks should at least be given a timeout.
I am in full accord with Arminius on your first question, Boo. I am not interested in participating on any public political blog where I am expected to keep track of other peoples personal sensitivities or trigger point, and then egg walk around them in order to express my own opinions, avoid being accused a big bad wolf attacking Little Red Riding Hood.I spent way too much therapy money UNLEARNING those enabling behaviors.
<<Can compassion and concern be allowed to bend the rules in any way? <<<p>
Not unless it’s done equally and consistently for every single member of the community. To allow compassion to bend rules for one or two, when the rest of the community is expected to follow them, is a reciepe for group dissension and chaos.
There are many other ways to extend compassion and friendship to someone. One of them is by setting limits on hurtful behaviors that person cannot or will not control, that end up hurting others as well as hurting them.
gee, I wonder who THAT might be?!?!
😉
I try to remember that for every institutional nazi and pederast there are people like the Berrigan brothers & yourself, but sometimes I forget and my inner Sam Harris comes roaring out. The institutions themselves make that distinction hard to maintain, though. The difference is that lefty believers usually focus on what their faith calls on them to do, while the greater majority of believers and the institutions of belief focus on what their beliefs call on EVERYONE ELSE to do.
The more personal kind of faith is, to my thinking, more humanist, even if it’s driven by a belief in something beyond human. Dr. King, the Berrigan Brothers, the followers of liberation theology, esp. in the Latin Church are definitely my allies. I’m sorry that my disgust with superstition wounds them, but they need to remember that the insistance that morality only has worth if it’s based on something “higher” is wounding in return.
Anyway, I think that all words and beliefs have to be on the table. The difference is to remember to virtually shake hands after the dust clears. The problem with some, esp. the bullies at a certain place, is that they make things so damned personal, and try to build shunning societies that make interaction impossible. Our entire political system has sewn a Scarlet L on the chests of the entire left, and it’s left us with a system unable to completely explore solutions to the problems we have. Lefty/progressive blogs should be the last place where that tendency is continued, but sadly they are.
Ah Madman, I was trying to be cryptic and elliptical and gender-free. I should have known you would penetrate my defenses yet again, he he!
Incidentally–I forgot to say–I agree with your entire comment, which is nicely written.
Christians often say, hate the sin, love the sinner. That gets abused, but there is much wisdom there. On this blog we should make a similar distinction: say absolutely whatever you want about my ideas and my affiliations, but don’t say anything negative about my person and my motivations.
For what it’s worth, I find all the meta discussion on this point to be helpful and inspiring. One of my deep character flaws is to be much to quick to attribute malign motivations to others, even though time and time and time again I’ve learned the lesson that I’m usually wrong about that. We should be extra gentle to everybody we meet, because we all have great burdens to bear.
And Brother Arminius is now going to watch the super bowl.
go Bears!
One of my deep character flaws is to be much to quick to attribute malign motivations to others, even though time and time and time again I’ve learned the lesson that I’m usually wrong about that. We should be extra gentle to everybody we meet, because we all have great burdens to bear.
I think we all share that flaw. It’s surely mine, at least. And the reminder to be extra gentle is most welcome.
I have found if you meeet fire with cool water the fire doesn’t usually spread.
Whatever y’all end up doing, I’d strongly discourage enabling problem behavior.
Good questions, Booman. No easy anwers. Re: attacking groups. It isn’t the same as attacking an individual, but as cathartic as it is to call group X,Y,Z stupid, evil or whatever, it would be better to make our arguments based on facts and logic. (Something I sometimes forget.) I have always kind of like the “Don’t Be a Prick” admonition. If someone is getting upset because of the way I am writing about a group, and I see that, then I think in the service of non-prickiness, I should change my approach.
This issue may become really relevant when primaries heat up and supporters of candidate A form one group., Candidate B another and so forth.
I think there should also be more information about TU’s. I became one at some point in time unbeknownst to myself, and I read the expectations, but I’m not really sure how it all works in terms of hidden comments or how many TU ratings equal the designation of undisputed troll.
I have bailed on a number of flame wars because I find them tiresome and non-productive. I probably abdicated my responsibity as a TU to some extent, but clearer expectation of the role I might have played would be helpful in case of further flare-ups.
As to your second question, I feel compassion is important. Rather than banning a time out may be in order. We don’t all know each other’s circumstances, but we all have our wounds and sensibilities. If one “side” gets timed out, however, then I think both “sides” have to be. Also is there any way to supend all comments on a thread for a period of time? If things are getting really out of hand maybe a community time out is in order.
I think we all need to realize that these flame wars affect not only the parties involved, but the community as a whole. We need to be respectful, but we also need to forgive sometimes.
Anyway, Booman, thanks for making this blog available we may stumble a few times but I trust we can work this out.
When BooTribbers encounter pricks they have a choice: To respond or not respond. When response is the choice BooTribbers have another choice: To enforce directly (w/ 0s or warnings), or indirectly (an e-mail to the Booman notifying him of an egregious prick). When non-response is the choice, BooTribbers either wash their hands of community or judge that enough of the communty has piled on and the prick is pricked.
BooTribbers who get caught up in flame wars choose to enter the fray in an engaging posture rather than an enforcing stance. Hope you’re wearing your +1 Blogging Armor. That’s the extent of my sympathy.
This or That BooTribber who expects me to regard his/her pet class identity with the same degree of respect or affection as they do have unrealistic expectations. We’re not clones here. We have different histories and experiences that have forged us differently, not cookie-cuttered us into replicas of Identical Ideal Liberal.
I have no intention of giving my brain up to mass-pleasing jellification as a substitute for hard-cutting argumentation. I hope no one else is either.
And I reserve the right to make an ass out of myself at times. Which is not the same thing as to behave like an ass.
Finally, while I’m sorry if I’ve offended those having “bad days,” “bad lives,” or “bad karma,” don’t expect me to be able to avoid it. I cannot divine clinical or even near clinical mental/emotional anguish over my keyboard. I am not Dr. Phil.
In sum, I will neither read nor care about any new rules of conduct on this blog other than “Don’t be a prick.” Good luck to everyone.
I have no intention of giving my brain up to mass-pleasing jellification as a substitute for hard-cutting argumentation. I hope no one else is either.
I have no idea how my comment elicited this response. If it seemed I was arguing for mass-leasing jellification, I was not.
Liked what you said.
Then started blogging.
It’s what I do.
Cool. Thanks. Me, too.
Hi Booman, I am happy to see you put this up, I know this is a difficult area and I haven’t thought of the best solution yet, but I do think it has to be defined in some sense as best we can.
I kind of like your, you know it when you see it, phrase yesterday, but the broader issue you brought up does require some deeper thinking.
Well I will consider it some more, right now my brain is in underdrive.
Question 1: No you cannot equate an attack on an indivdual with an attack on an institution. If a person equates an attack on an institution or belief system or worldview with an attack on themselves then they need to serioulsy consider whether or not they want to be part of this community (or any community that values open discourse and diverse viewpoints).
As grownups though we should try and refrain from statements or comments like all Christians enable genocide and all Muslims are bomb throwers.
Question 2: A strongly recommended timeout from you or the “council of elders” to the person who appears to be suffering and continually flouts the rules.
An enforced timeout if called for.
Again lets be adults. Compassion rules. Someone not in the midst of the chains of anger, vitrol and hurtful comments should take the person aside (however that is) and say hey maybe you should pull other things together before you continue on here.
In #2, “appears” to be suffering.
Some people don`t wish to “appear” to be suffering. Some people leave it “outside” so as not to disrupt. While some one may know someone is suffering, others may not & wonder why the special treatment. Why should all, suffer the slings & arrows of the “sufferer”. Don`t be a prick works, as long as it is working for every one. “I have a wooden leg so I want a dispensation from the rules.” doesn`t work for me. Compassion & concern should most certainly be used in tempering justice, but lack of both should require swift justice.
even to those not “in the know”. I read a number of things yesterday that I hadn’t while the flames were burning ever higher. Ignored it basically untill people were banned or left.
And it’s quite obvious (at least to me) that we have some folk here who are in serious pain and are mirroring their difficulties in other places on this site. We can be compassionate without sacrificing the whole.
And that’s all I have to say on that topic.
at the moment and I want dispensation from any new rules. Only “Don’t be a prick,” should apply to me.
I also want tips on how to decorate my cast. Nothing Colonial. Nothing Victorian.
<Smile everybody. It’s just a harmless joke.>
On #2: Wise words once shared with me:
The best way to discriminate against someone is to not tell them what the rules are.
Rewritten for this question it would be:
The best way to enable someone is to bend the rules.
Compassion cannot be equated with enabling. Compassion is understanding, WHILE holding accountable.
I’ve long thought that an Honor Code of some kind would be helpful. At Bryn Mawr, where I went to college, we had an honor code for both academic stuff and social stuff. The academic honor code enabled us to schedule our own exams, etc. The social honor code was developed to resolve disputes and enforce campus rules.
The aspect I think would be most beneficial to an online community is the concept of “confrontation”:
Emphasis mine.
The thing that I like about this is that it focuses on opening a line of communication between the aggrieved parties, and it doesn’t get bogged down in definitions of stuff like “personal attack”, “vicious”, etc.
In practice, at least when I was there many years ago, the vast majority of problems were worked out through the confrontation process, and rarely did a case have to be brought to the Honor Board for further attention.
I don’t know if such a concept could work in an online community, but it’s worth a shot. The top-down, punitive thing doesn’t seem to be working.
Can compassion and concern be allowed to bend the rules in any way?
Nope. Just because He Who Has the Power to Ban personally knows the offender has undue stress in their life should not alter the consequences for their behavior. I think anyone who has a public melt-down and violates the rules is obviously projecting real-life stress into their virtual-life.
Everyone — at every level of society — has excuses for their bad behavior but that does not stop them from suffering the consequences. They go to jail for assault even tho they were abused as a child. They lose their driver’s licence even tho they have the disease of alcoholism. And someone should be banned for repeatedly telling others to (paraphrasing) be “fucked and die,” calling them “bitch,” “bastard,” etc.
Some people do evade justice because they’re rich or have friends in high places but that doesn’t make those exceptions right or fair. As Progressives, we oppose those instances and it’s really intolerable to see such an example happening here!
sjct, exactly what I tried to convey upthread, but written better.
I’m glad you’re asking for input from the community but when all is said and done this is your site and how you choose to run it is your decision alone..and you’ve done a great job. Some may not think so at the moment and I certainly don’t agree with you all the time but then who agrees with anyone all the time.(being the fence-sitter that I am I don’t even agree with myself all the time)
I absolutely hate rules and certainly hoped the ‘don’t be a prick’ rule would suffice. More rules more free speech stifled.
Soooo…how to set a few guidelines that are clearcut? I’d say the biggest one that has to be enforced is absolutely no personal attacks…no leeway what so ever there. You could say for instance..I personally hate the fact that we have a military but can’t say ‘You’re stupid for being in the military’..I hope I’m making myself clear here.
I don’t see how there is any way we can’t say what we think of any institution in the country…or I’d certainly be a freaken loss with my opinions on organized religion, any religion.
Anyone who starts engaging in personal attacks and it goes past several posts needs an immediate time out..everyone involved does. Certain issues that are very personal to both parties will never be resolved so there is certainly no point in trying to convince the other side otherwise. State your opinion then drop it. It only devolves into a big mess and most of us here don’t want to take sides especially if the people involved are people we like equally.
So maybe a clearer definition of ‘don’t be a prick’ and automatic time outs other than that it gets to be too many rules.
I’d also say that on any given day someone might be in a bad mood and take things the wrong way that they normally wouldn’t. We humans aren’t static in our feelings and emotions, one day we’re up, one day we’re down and we all come at these emotions from events in our own lives so our reactions are based on our personal emotions even prejudices. Posting comments instead of being able to talk to people face to face inherently can lead to problems for that very reason..words written down without the facial expressions, voice inflections and body language can almost mean something different than when it is said face to face. I guess what I’m trying to say here is if someones post immediately offends you take a breath and ask for a clarification to see if they meant what you think they meant…and go from there…and don’t be a prick.
And put up a diary. I think we are just in one of those places where the Booman community can’t come with me and I can’t go with it. I’m okay with that. BostonJoe’s diary helped me a lot. Then my husband looking over my shoulder and spoke about what a bunch of revolutionaries we all were trying to make it through this without any evolutionaries. Yesterday I began to think that it was too much to ask of the Booman Community to make an active duty family member part and portion of the pond, and that’s okay. Things don’t have to be anything more or anything less than what they are and I don’t always see what is obviously in front of my face but I do eventually see it. And everything is going to be okay. We will all make it through this because there isn’t a choice as to whether we will or not. Considering that I have another good 40 years left on the planet if nobody nukes it I hope to see a day when the rifts of life that divide us are smaller. It isn’t now though and I don’t know when that will be. Every time a door closes though another one opens. Every single time without fail through out my whole entire life it has been that way. Reading Joe’s diary made me long for the old days….when we all could work together because we didn’t have a snowballs chance in hell anyhow. Now there is a chance and we don’t have the same unity that being squashed underfoot gave us all. I will always cherish though that this place fortified me when I went to Texas and saw that Bush makes the secret service dress in jeans and boots when they are in Texas. What a fricken scream….its all about the costume with that fruitcake.
Yesterday I began to think that it was too much to ask of the Booman Community to make an active duty family member part and portion of the pond
I disagree. t is not too much to ask.
I repeat a quote from another diary:
I respect no belief system, no argument, no idea, and no institution or organization. All of them can be wrong from time to time and they must be confronted when they are wrong, period. I feel free to be “savagely rude” about them if necessary or effective, which is always debatable, just like any other idea.
Some individuals and groups of individuals deserve respect, some do not. Disrespectful individuals or groups deserve ridicule or worse. Quoting BooMan quoting Woody Allen:
“… a bit from Woody Allen’s Manhattan:
I can’t fake civility…especially when civility is not called for.”
in The Strange Public Breakdown of Peggy Noonan by BooMan
And finally, compassion for disrespectful individuals must be limited in a public forum. A raving drunken alcoholic at the town hall meeting may be shown some compassion by hauling them out of the meeting and into a rehab center. Compassion does not equate with allowing the raving drunk to spew invective at whomever they please with impunity and then be told to please be quiet and sit down, only to start spewing again a few minutes later. ‘Compassion’ does not mean enabling repetitive and disgusting disruptions of civility.
If you understand that you feel like was written for you in how to deal with me and I feel it was written for me in how to deal with you. You believe with every fiber of your being that I’m wrong and I believe with every fiber of my being that you are wrong. Because of that you think that gives you license to be rude, because of that I think that gives me license to be rude.
Just what am I so wrong about? Can you be specific, or are you just gonna throw out some more broad and baseless accusations? And leave the fibers of my being out of it, you know nothing about my fibers. How about a few cuss words for me…
when I wrote fiber of your being. It’s just a phrase. I have been rude to people who as you wrote above I feel with everything certain about who I am were not truthful about items they claimed to be truthful around issues that directly impact my life (which makes it very hard for anyone to effectively understand issues if they are going by such information), and I have been rude to people who labeled an entire group of people with a name that did not fit all of them and in fact fit few of them.
Your double standards amaze me.
double standards. Can you explain to me what which ones.
When you answer my question I’ll answer yours.
Tough questions, but good on you for bringing them up.
As for your first question, I can’t think of any institutions or lifestyle that should be exempt from criticism. It’s not anti-semetic to criticise the Israeli government, not racist to criticize the NAACP and not homophobic to criticize GLAAD. Many people on this site are as critical of Democrats as they are of Republicans, which is something that doesn’t fly over at the Big Orange Place. Frankly, I think they’re the lesser for it, but that their choice.
The problem, as always, is that some people have a lower threshold for criticism of certain ideas. However, the points made about Republicans on this site would likely offend a Republican, why should other groups or institutions be exempt from that level of criticism?
As for dealing with violators, I guess it depends on the severity and the frequency of negative behaviour. Many sites have a warn, suspend and ban three-step progression, it’s pretty easy and usually fair. However, for the more egregious violations, you can always go straight to ban. If someone is legitimately have some sort of problems, they shouldn’t be exempt from punishment, but I have no problem with being compassionate for someone in a tough spot. Time heals most wounds, so a time-out period can be a good thing for someone in that position.
I have noticed that some people become disruptive on these boards because they have slipped into a kind of obsessive/compulsive behavior.
I don’t know why it happens but I saw pretty frequently at “the other place”. It seems quite difficult for the affected individuals to just step away, take a break & regain some perspective.
I think that this phenomenom should be considered along with whatever else is in the mix.
That’s an interesting comment. For what it’s worth, I observe myself doing that every once in awhile. For example, I’m so busy at work most of the time, that I often will go several weeks just lurking on the blogs, writing little, maybe not even adding ratings. (I’ve been reading this site almost every single day for 18 months, but there are many days when I just read.) But some nights I go into BLOGZONE ™ and keep posting and checking, posting and checking, obsessively and compulsively until 5 a.m. It does often seem that during a flame-war somebody will appear to be doing nothing but fanning the flames for like 16 hours in a row. I’m not sure how this fits into the discussion, I confess.
Question 1:
Institutions are fair game for criticism, any of them.
If I complained every time that some new and awful thing is said about Israel, I’d be complaining all the time, with time for nothing else. And believe me, I do feel pain with each statement. I say nothing and I live with it. Or I just avoid the thread.
To have it any other way would be coming too close to the slippery slope for comfort.
Question 2:
Give a time out. And another subsequent one if still neccessary. Rinse and repeat.
I would place my vote for no new rules. In terms of political philosophy, I think I’ve become an anarchist. And I don’t believe additional rules will help to make the site a better place.
You have laid out rules already. Life will not always be harmonius, but new rules — IMHO — are not the answer. I don’t think you get to the better of people’s behavior by enacting legislation and then holding people to account.
An example in the real world. Big box stores decide that they are losing too much money to shop lifters. They institute security rules, which include a greeter or security guard who engages every customer, which has the psychological effect of letting them know they are watched. While the new rule may or not be effective at increasing profits, an unintended consequence is that it makes every person entering the store (who is aware of the purpose of the greeter) feel suspect. New rules. New problems.
Less rules, the better.
Just my hunch.
How about we create a Department of Booman Security? Maybe we could get FEMA to help monitor the site? Just a few ideas that have worked really well in the past. Thought I’d throw em out there. They are plenty smart.
But I think at the very least an interim step between “community member” and “banned” would be good.
All or nothing isn’t very helpful, as has been amply demonstrated on this blog.
It’s in Booman court now. We’re just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, unless he takes some serious steps fast.
and I forgot to say hi back from Keres and the critters in the other thread. 🙂
I always enjoy reading your and other’s exchanges in the doggy blog.
I really didn’t want to post on this, but thanks to Boston Joe, I feel I have to.
I don’t think this is really about new rules. It’s about enforcing the rule we have in place, i.e.,
don’t be a prick. There was a distinct lack of enforcement of that rule that cost us two very dear
members and the rest want to make sure that doesn’t happen again.
I hate to use this post as a jump off into a rant, but your post shows that most of y’all really don’t want to talk about the crux of the issue. We don’t really need new rules, we want an enforcement of the basic rule. I’m going to be very blunt in what follows because I think at this point it is necessary and
as a progressive, I feel it is important to speak out.
Booman, you totally went off the deep end with Spiderleaf. I know you claim that 3 to 1 people
wanted her banned, but you did not have reason to ban her. I know she can be aggressive and I
have no doubt you do not like her. I have no doubt that others disliked her as well. She also has
been Tracy’s archnemesis since last summer. I know you are convinced she lied to you, but I
saw no proof of that and she vehemently denied it. First, you accused her of telling Catnip of
your relationship with CG. Your only “proof” was that she was the only one who knew. I hate
to tell you this, but I suspected back at Yearly Kos. If catnip had emailed me for verification, I
would have told her I thought you were dating CG. I am not part of any clique here…I don’t
email anyone here; in other words, it was fucking obvious for anyone who was attune to the
dynamics here. So there goes your theory that only Spiderleaf could know. After that attack
failed, you then tried to say she lied about when she “knew” you and CG were dating. Come on
dude. Are you so wrapped up with the Libby trial that you see this kind of nonsense in your life?
She said repeatedly that she suspected (like I did) for a long time, but the photo made her feel
her suspicions were true. She did not lie to protect a traitor. Hell, it is not even clear that she
lied at all. You acted like you just wanted to find anything, anything at all, to justify banning
her. In the end you banned someone who so loved this place that she drove hundreds of miles
across the border just to meet a few of our own. That has got to be your lowest point here that I
have seen.
All this is operating around the other problem, namely, Tracy. Tracy and Sallycat got all in a
huff over the anger (in the light of Iraq, no surprise) some people feel for the military these days.
They took the angst people feel for the military personally. So personally, that they both acted
out in really appalling ways. Sally left and you convinced Tracy to take a time out. Ok. That is
good. We then had six months of really good feelings here. Then, Tracy returns and all hell
breaks out again. This time she really goes all out and brutalizes Super in some of the most
abusive language I have ever seen. What is your response? You ban Spiderleaf and give Tracy a
warning. A warning? What the fuck were you smoking? Clearly you must have been high not
to see that this only reinforced the idea that you are lenient with your friends but unduly harsh
with your enemies.
So now we say we need rules. We need rules with consequences. No more can you get away
with allowing someone to abuse another member if you want us to stay. I have yet to see Tracy
offer a heartfelt apology to Super. I have yet to see you offer an apology to Spiderleaf. Both are
overdue.
That is the crux of this situation and that kind of disparate behavior that needs to be addressed
here.
Now, in your favor, you have told Tracy that her outbreaks will no longer be tolerated and that
any further breach will result in banning. You have been compassionate and kind to her. This is
very good. Now that her “enemies” are gone, it strikes me as a little too lenient and a lot too
late.
But, you still banned someone out of some perceived duplicity that quite frankly is not obvious
to the rest of us. You have made an enemy out of a friend of the community for reasons that are
completely incomprehensible. You say you are not ashamed of dating CG, but quite frankly,
your actions belie that. If you had been open with the community from the beginning, I quite
think that we would have congratulated you and CG and been delighted to know that this place
brought together two wonderful people. Instead you act like it was some kind of state secret
and that traitor Spiderleaf leaked confidential information. Dude, that looked real bad. I feel
sorry for CG that she was relegated to a “need to know” status.
Obviously as a total outsider to the personal thoughts and stuff, I may be off course, but this is
what I see. You attacked Spiderleaf for no legitimate reason and you let Tracy get away with
viciously abusing a respected, kind and decent member of our community. I really think you
owe everyone an apology.
I hate to be blunt, but after seeing all the dancing around the real issues here, I felt someone
needed to say it. (I acknowledge that Blueneck has tried to do this before me, and bless him/her
for their efforts.)
For the feel good part, I love this place and come here every day. I drove hundreds of miles
myself to meet some of our awesome members. It was well worth it. Y’all rock, for the most
part. :>)
P.S. I am really not trying to fan the flames, so to speak, I just want to discuss the real issues and
not some ideological and hypothetical situations that are incidentally similar to what we are
facing. I think this is the basis for the bad feelings and not whether or not we can criticize the
military or not or how we should deal with members that can’t cope with other people’s beliefs.
That one line made spiderleaf stop reading to weep for a few minutes before getting on with the rest of your very eloquent comment. I thought explaining that would be better than just rating it a 4, and I wanted you to know that, against her suggestions it would sound pitiful.
I don’t agree with every word of the above, but I agree with most of it, and I wish I had had the guts to say it myself.
When Supersoling admitted that he really couldn’t remember what he had said last summer, it completely destroyed BooMan’s entire argument against Spiderleaf–but he persisted, hellbent. It was an ugly spectacle.
My preference would be for BooMan to apologize and to respectfully request that Spiderleaf return.
Incidentally, I guess I’ve missed lots of contretemps. Personally, I always got along with Spiderleaf and her views. I’d like to see her back.
I believe that you are not trying to fan flames, yet I personally do not see how rehashing the whole thing does anything but that.
I admit that I got off the thread very early. I felt that one poster was in a very fragile place and not able to reason clearly at the moment and that another poster, deliberately or not, threw gas on the flames.
Apparently things got really ugly and mean after I left.
I failed as a member of the community in not trying to bring things under control. I naively hoped it wouldn’t go too far.
I am really bewildered by what went on. I have appreciated and been inspired by the writings of Supersoling, Alohaleezy, Spiderleaf and DammitJanet, as well as by those of Tracy and Booman. Most of the time it seems that our core values and hopes for the country coincide. Reading their words over the past year or so, it seems that they had much in common. It seems that their basic goals were the same, though they might disagree about tactics, or strategy.
If people who have so much in common can become so hurtful to one another, and others of us cop out and try to ignore it, it is not surprising that we find ourselves in larger scale messes.
I hope for respect, reconcilation, acceptance of responsibilty and forgiveness. I trust the basic goodness of all the frogs in the pond.
I have been away and busy with family, so am late to comment and grateful that I’ve missed most of this.
Kamakhya, I want everyone to know and understand that i was not relegated to “need to know” status by Martin. I realized at the beginning that there was a very good chance that people would begin to automatically view my comments as those of “the site owner’s girlfriend” and dismiss whatever I had to say as a result, or worse, use our relationship against him. I wanted to remain an ‘regular’ blogger, with no special status on the site.
In addition, there are people we know in real life who read this blog that I didn’t want to know my blog identity, including Martin’s ex-wife and parents. I wanted to be able to maintain my ability to say what I thought and not feel like I have to self-censor everything all the time. Believe me, that’s been a challenge anyway.
However much our relationship was obvious to long-time and voracious readers of the site, it would not have drawn the negative attention that it has without help from spiderleaf. I am grateful to those who knew and respected our privacy. I am still wondering why I got dragged into this in the first place, as Martin met Tracy at the same war protest I did. I feel I’ve been unfairly treated here too.
I hope you don’t mind me butting in here and confirming your reasons for maintaining your privacy and the fact you were dating Martin. I know we spoke about it back in the summer and you were afraid that people would treat you differently in the FBC and elsewhere – and you wanted to be just another member.
This whole thing has been like a slow motion train wreck – like the whole blog is sinking, when in fact, at least the way most people “in the middle” see it, it involved 3 or 4 members who continually mix it up and get nasty with each other. I won’t guess at motives, but it is an ugly thing to see.
I think we should all step back and take a deep breath (careful in the north that your nosehairs don’t freeze) and then decide whether you want to come back and renew friendships and talk about changing the world or just how to make a martini – or if you want to leave for good.
Personally I hate GBCW diaries because they are whiney and self-serving.
I wish everyone would stay, but I respect those that decide to go.
Thank you for responding and explaining how you felt. Obviously, when you start dating the owner, some people might react weirdly. Not much you can do about that though except ignore it as not being worthy of a response.
I really saw very little negative attention from anyone here, including Spiderleaf. I never could find the post in which she linked to a photo, so I’m not sure what happened there. But from what I could gather it seems like it was blown way out of proportion. It certainly didn’t justify her expulsion.
I’m sorry you got dragged into this. I think I can see why it happened, though I agree it is not fair.
FWIW, until the past few days, the people who reacted weirdly had kept it in check, or had at least confined their opinions primarily to other sites and email. And like you said in your earlier post, I would just be happy for the people involved and not feel much need to comment on it, if the situation were reversed in some way.
NOTE: I AM NOT DOING THIS TO FAN THE FLAMES!
But I do feel a need to correct the record, particularly in light of what spiderleaf has said about me personally (both here and elsewhere), so here is the initial comment I made that set her off. As you can see, I was troll-rated and called a liar in response to a comment that did not even mention spiderleaf.
FWIW, I agree with NLinStPaul that “We all make mistakes and sometimes people get hurt. The point is whether or not we can keep our minds open, admit mistakes and learn from them. Sometimes apologies help too.”
I think we have to quit worrying about fanning the flames and just try and talk about this like adults.
CG, I’m not going to try and defend Spider putting that picture up. But one of the things I’ve seen about her is that she is a “truth-teller.” My experience with truth-tellers is that they often say things that others are thinking, and then get in trouble for it. Right or wrong, people were wondering about your relationship with BooMan and its effect on the site. I’m not here to tell you two what you should/could have done about that. Its a tough call. But it was back there waiting to be “outed.”
And again, I’m not here to defend how Spidey did it, but your comment completely overlooked what Tracy had just said to Super. How do you think you would have reacted if someone had just said that to a good friend of yours? I’m not justifying it – just trying to put it in more context.
In the end, I think your relationship with BooMan and Tracy (BooMan has admitted that his relationship with Tracy affected his decisions) and the fact that Spidey and Supersoling are such good friends played on both sides of all this. Normally that would be fine, in the midst of all this conflict, it exacerbated things.
NL, you are a very kind-hearted person. I really don’t want to get into this, but what did I have to do with what Tracy said to Super? I did not make her comment. I did not deserve the venom with which spiderleaf has responded. Why would her response to me be even remotely justified?
As you can also see from what happened later in that thread, truth-telling plays a role in this. Spiderleaf has been untruthful about the fact that she knew we were dating in July, regardless of who told her then.
I hope we can keep this civil – I’m not trying to start anything either – just hope to help with everyone’s understanding.
This is what you said in that link:
This is just the same round of people saying the same things over and over again, about how their clique is the only that’s allowed to voice an opinion. Old and tired, and not worth my time either…
I think it was saying this just after Tracy had unloaded on Super that is what she reacted to. Again, I’m not trying to justify how she reacted – but that this is what she was reacting to.
I know that you and BooMan are convinced that Spider lied. I actually got confused by what it is you think she lied about. You relationship with BooMan was scuttlebut starting from ykos, as most here would acknowledge. I’m not here to defend her using that in this argument – but as I said before, I think lots of other people were thinking it at the time. Spider is the one who said it.
We need to just agree to disagree on this one, NL.
There was nothing untruthful about the fact that I said that the same 2 factions were at it again in that thread and that I wasn’t interested in participating in it.
I think what spider did in her response to me was wrong, no matter what her reasoning for it was. She has amde it abundantly clear to everyone that she feels it was an acceptable thing to do. End of story.
I think I understand your take on that comment better now. At the time, it sounded to me like you were blaming ONE clique. Do you see how that makes a difference? I hate it that words have to be parsed so – but that made a big difference to me.
Hope you don’t mind me adding to this thread and you too CG and by the way Hi as I am really responding to both of your comments, as I am trying to unravel this whole thing in my brain.
My thought on this thread is that Tracy was the problem that brought the whole line of you two (B and CG) and favoritism into play as we struggled to find reasons for Boomans allowing behavior to go on and then apparently it relates back to the other time with tracy, and even bigger group of others , where the fact of you two was the underlying reason behind that situation and with catnip unbeknownst to most of us.
Seems to me like a whole series of mishandling, things goind awry and a whole scenario built with various ramifications and indictments on many levels from site members to Booman and back around again.
This whole thing was simmering underneath while those of us on top here were trying to figure it all out.
I see why CG and B didn’t want it in the open but from my perspective I think it would be better to have it out in some way and then just go on.
I really had no idea about nearly any of this until Booman told it the other day and actually was delighted to hear about.
Anyway, CG I feel for you and hope that all of this works out for the best for you and all concerned.
You are right, kamakhya.
However, it is readily apparent that BooMan is not going to apologize to anyone, no matter how many good, faithful, committed members of this site tell him how wrong he is. Instead, he will continue down the paranoid line of claiming that anyone who has ever posted at mo betta meta looking for some sort of theory to explain this latest bizarre uneven enforcement, or to commiserate over the loss of a good thing, is a serial blog wrecker.
You’re right that this blog doesn’t need new rules, but I might also add that Booman basically mocked the heartfelt and steadfast effort of some of us to come up with a policy and a committee to help ameliorate problems in the future.
He is blind to the fact that he has one huge blog wrecker here who is wrecking it all, serially or not. He is immune to criticism, because it’s HIS blog, after all, and we who have made up a good portion of his community for quite some time now are all wrong and he can’t bothered to pay any real attention to anything we are saying other than to taunt us with more banal and childish attacks. It’s his choice and he’s made it, so it’s up to the rest of us to just leave or not. I’ll be leaving.
That does not mean that I agree with everything that others who left long ago, or who are leaving now, have had to say here or anywhere else (or even that I agree now with everything I have said in the past.) I will build or maintain my own on-line relationships with them, or not, in the future. For the moment I’ll be hanging my hat at Everybody Comes From Somewhere, if anyone wants to know.
Booman basically mocked the heartfelt and steadfast effort of some of us to come up with a policy and a committee to help ameliorate problems in the future.
I retract that statement and apologize for it, as BooMan has now made it clear to me that there really is a TV show called “Curb Your Enthusiasm, and that that comment was indeed a comment on how he was spending his personal time, not a commentary on the “Rules” diary itself.
Wow.
Yeah.
I can see how the title would have sounded totally rude and dismissive if you didn’t know it was a real show. Apology accepted.
Two points and a suggestion:
But if Sue7468 could send a message to Joe343 without either of them disclosing an identity or email address, a whole world of communications would open up. This would have pluses and minuses, but one plus is that everyone else could say, in effect, “Take it outside!” Email can get nasty, but not in the same way.
It’s often easer to redirect something than it is to stop it. Does Scoop enable this?
When disagreement devolves into pissing contests, temper tantrums and nastiness towards others in a personal way, there should be consequences. The idea that I could go off on someone and get banned and the person next to me could do the same and receive endless second chances because they’re life is hard and you happen to know about it really (really) puts me off. In case you haven’t noticed, excusing that behavior has not made it go away or even ease up. It’s the rest of us here that suffer. Wake up, Boo… you are letting good members wander away in droves so you could be forgiving of bad behavior. Bad behavior should not be condoned, or enabled or tolerated. Period.
I like the idea of cooling off periods for those involved. Repeated violations should result in banning.
As for members who are hurting, they have to abide by the rules like everyone else. No exceptions. I know you have a big heart, and if you feel the need, you can continue to support them off site.
Look, off site meta has been nasty, personal, vicious and very pathetic. I ignore them. You should too. I would ignore them completely, but YOU KEEP WRITING ABOUT THEM. They are absolutely not worth the time and effort. I guess you haven’t noticed that when you engage them, they answer by coming here en masse and eagerly slobber all over the site, piss people off and just generally cause havoc. You ask for it every damn time.
Many of us have taken unannounced breaks from the site. I’ve always come back, but I see that many don’t. I care about our little community here and it saddens me that things seem to be devolving steadily. I think it’s time to tighten the rules.
I hope some people are beginning to notice that they do that and have done that with or without me writing about them. It’s kinda my point.
You can tell the people that actually care by their actions. They’re not writing about how corrupt I am. They’re trying to offer me constructive advice.
As for the banned individual, all her true colors are on vibrant display and can confirm for all what I already knew.
17, spidey was a blog wrecker.Booman, I told myself I was going to be done with this. But I guess I’m not.
I don’t know if you consider me one of the “blog wreckers” but I have gone other places to express some of my frusterations. I did that because I needed to do that (I care about these people and this place) in a way that didn’t make things even more out of control here AND in a place I felt I could be safe to do so. I tried all I could to talk calmly and rationally to you and others here about my concerns. And was pretty much dismissed by you. That is your prerogative, but it left me feeling like there was not much point in expressing myself here.
I’m sad that you have become so obsessed with the idea that spidey is out to wreck this blog. What I see is that she is a “truth-teller” and for the most part she does it rather bluntly. That kind of approach tends to offend some, but in no way do I see it as malice.
I am not out for a blood-letting. I’ll just say one more time that what Tracy said to Super should have been dealt with. THAT was a blood-letting. You said she’s gone now, but that happened before. And to try to blame this all on spidey now is just not reality.
I think at this point that I see your strengths and some of your weaknesses. No one is perfect. I’m just sad that your blindness in seeing this situation has let it get so out of hand.
I issued Tracy a last chance warning. How is that not dealing with it? I don’t understand how issuing her a last chance warning is not dealing with it?
How can that be?
That is not doing nothing. That is not doing what you think I should have done. I am not dismissing your opinion. I made a decision on the first. You didn’t agree with it. It led within two days to Tracy realizing on her own that it’s best for her to leave, without me having to ban her. Sometimes having a little faith in me and some patience is better than…well…all this.
I hear your stress over this and hope that means an opening to understanding another point of view. Thanks for that.
Tracy left of her own accord, she’s done that before and come back with a vengance. That has a chilling effect on people. As I said, I’m not out for a bloodletting, but I think folks need some sign from you that six months from now, this will not happen again. As many have said, that was the most vile speech we have ever seen here. We need to know that you will not tolerate that – no matter who it is. And a warning only means that she gets one more victim. We all have to wonder if that might be us. We can’t go back to have a do-over, but perhaps if you had decided to step in and call Tracy out instead of getting involved in that ridiculous exchange with Spider that resulted in her banning, things might have gone differently. It became clear that you were more worried about you and your relationship than you were about the vile that Tracy had just unloaded.
If you have any interest in rectifying this, I know that I and many of the other wonderful people around here would be willing to give you our best support in figuring out how to do that.
I am interested in rectifying it.
I am letting people work through their proposal and I will respond to it.
I want you to understand something though. I really hope you do understand it.
The stuff spidey is writing right now is not new. It has been going on sporadically since July. Not just her, but a group of people. They began to gel in response to the Muslim cartoon controversy and they got organized in the second great ductape rift in July. I have been subjected to all kinds of allegations and aspersions. I take it in as much stride as I can muster.
But I know who they are. And when they show up here and post a photo of me and my girlfriend as evidence of my bias (THE EXACT ARGUMENT THEY MADE IN JULY) and try to pass it off as a new revelation, they are engaged in blog-wrecking and dissension sowing. So, hell yes, I saw it as more of a threat than whether or not I warned, suspended, or banned a member for breaking the rules. What they are doing right now can only be described as an effort to enflame this community through the magnification of a decision I made to issue a warning rather than cede to their demands.
That other well meaning people agree with their criticism doesn’t change what they are doing and have been doing for a very long time.
And unless you understand that, you can’t understand why I did not take it at all well to be lied to about rather irrelevant details from long ago. I knew what she was up to and if you have any doubt go read her post again.
This also goes to my reaction to the DD thing. What kind of nut goes to the trouble to take someone’s name, find their place of work, take a company photo of a person, and then link to it and make disparaging points about their appearance. And then go find their friendster profile and mock them for what kind of woman they would like to meet? These people are out to destroy.
I wish people could understand that.
Just in case you wouldn’t notice otherwise, I did write a response to this comment, but put it in the wrong place. Its downthread.
DD is a big reason I wandered over here via Jerome and EuroTrib. The stuff DD writes and the way he comes down on people is beyond the pale, and the brunt of the attacks and flame wars often seem to end up being hurled at outspoken women. And there are others there and at other mainstream blogs that are as bad or worse.
DD and his ilk have a very chilling effect on free and open discourse. <Long aside here>While electoral mechanics, messaging, and policy governance are the critical issues facing us right now, there are other significant issues underway that need open, free and unfettered discussion; like say the disenlightenment and return to royalism that’s well underway.</Long Aside>
And the unhinged way DD and others went off on marisacat is simply symptomatic of their worldview. BTW, did you ban that guy hurling out the c and b words about marisacat? That was beyond the pale and had nothing to do with this site.
Where I grew up, if an innocent third-party had heard the invective being hurled at marisacat by some of these people across the blog worlds at a bar, party or out on the street they would have knocked the shit out of them without even knowing who she was.
The marisacat attacks across the blogs were uncalled for and way out of control. I think that at some level they also contributed to the opening of other wounds here.
And that’s all I have to say on that topic.
Wow, step away for a couple of weeks and dustups start all over place.
BooMan, I would like to make a suggestion. I think it is one that would work for any Scoop-based site (god knows that orange place neeeds it), and it might even be worth paying a developer to do it.
In a video game I play, there is a thing called an “ignore” list. When you place another player on that list, you never see any of their comments. They can’t send you private messages, etc. It’s like they don’t exist. I have to admit that I’d like to put one or two people on my imaginary BooMan ignore list.
The nice thing about the ignore list is that the person being ignored never has to know. One player just quietly flags another as someone to ignore. In theory, no feelings get hurt. One could miss some nice ideas, etc., but I think that’s incentive not to abuse your own ignore list except for the people who really push your buttons.
The other thing: for heaven’s sake everyone, walk away from people who are going nuts. Sometimes people really do get off on upsetting other people. Don’t give them the pleasure. Don’t let them make you angry, because it’s what they want. Leave the thread and don’t go back. If people don’t get a response, they will eventually be quiet. I know it’s hard, especially when you know and like people, but sometimes you just have to do it.
http://www.boomantribune.com/comments/2007/2/5/4147/30556#18
you also explain it better.
I don’t think you are going to get a proposal. Diane is gone, at least for awhile. After reading most of the discussions here I think the consensus is that, while the rules might need some tweeking, the problem with this incident is that the one we already have was not enforced.
And I’m sorry you’re taking such a black and white view of the folks you credit with causing the problems. A step back might give you a more nuanced view. People have been hurt. And they have lashed out, sometimes in a way that hasn’t been productive. And the reality is that some of those fences might not be able to be mended. I think you have shown a thick skin at times, and at others have shown very little patience. That’s human too. Perhaps you need to take a break from it all and see if you can get some perspective.
One of the issues I’ve had with both sides of this problem is the attempt to categorize people in a way that comes down to “good” or “bad”. There are things I admire about everyone involved. And there are things I can see as mistakes that people have made (I’m sure someone could point out my mistakes as well).
If there is any possibility of any reconciliation, it will take people letting go of the idea that anyone has malice at the heart of what they are doing. And if its possible, show some vulnerability to being wrong about others.
Sorry, this was meant as a response to Booman upthread.
I’m hopeful, however, that this too, shall pass. It must. There are too many other things we must accomplish.
But to try to get through everything:
–Front-paging about Marisacat. I was very disappointed to see that. What purpose did it serve? I believe in karma: he was foul, abusive and even blog-stalked her at one point. Front-paging the whole thing, however, was unnecessary and just brought more attention to him–oh, and brought out those who apparently have no other purpose here to but to badmouth Marisacat.
–Spiderleaf. I like what she has to say and I think she has great insights, but I thought she was BEYOND obnoxious. I was, frankly, shocked by it. She went from making a point to bringing up the highly irrelevant to being just plain ugly. I can understand why you’d want to ban her (though you should not have engaged her) but I think it should be more of “cooling off” period than a total ban. I hope it’s not too late…but it may be.
–MilitaryTracy. And here’s why I think some folks are ticked: no matter how obnoxious Spiderleaf was, MilitaryTracy’s comments were absolutely unbelievalbe, uncalled for and totally UNACCEPTABLE. Period. So…if you’re going to ban Spiderleaf then you’re going to have to ban MilitaryTracy. And that pains me greatly to say, because I think, ordinarily, that she’s awesome. I believe her voice is needed and valuable as someone who experiences this awful war from a vantage point that most of us do not. I completely sympathize with her, I do: I have family in the military, I grew up in a military town, so I understand to a limited degree (since I don’t have any family in the army/marines who may be shipped to Iraq, but I do have friends and/or their spouses who have) her struggles. I know why some join the military, and ain’t because of some “signing up to see the world” BS. You could backpack Asia for a fraction of THAT particular cost, if that’s what was really desired.
BUT. For her to go off on Super like that was hurtful–unimaginable, even–and now he’s not coming back, though many have pleaded with him to stay. Who knows who else isn’t coming back? One just can’t do that! It’s very corrosive and to others, it just smacks of favoritism.
This is too long so I’ll end here: I believe 99.9% of us genuinely want to see fundamental change from the ruling junta and the effect of their horrendous policies. We don’t always agree on the best way to do that, and sometimes our differences get heated. It shouldn’t, but we’re human. You’re human, too and one of the better ones, because most of us don’t criticism very well. I think the various approaches of having a limited a ban on a first offense and a permanent ban with subsequent offenses is a measured approach. But it should be applied now and applied fairly.
I just had an awful epiphany. We liberals sure are hellacious navel-gazers. No wonder we can’t get together and accomplish anything. FWIW – AP just summarized my feelings.
I’m just so fucking (yes FUCKING!) tired of this crap.
I think I need to up my dose of Effexor.
I have to wonder just why folks go to blogs?? Do they need social contact, and because of that when they get offended, they have a fit and feel sad?. I always thought the idea behind blogs was to try and learn factual truths that the traditional mechanisms of news delivery have been failing to deliver and even distorting. I also thought the idea was to try and build strategies to win political power for certain points of view. Both these above objectives can be achieved without any announced personal identification involvement, i.e., in an anonymous posting way.
I have a suggestion that would both answer the question of why people are really here, as well as turn off some of this personal anger potential. How about all posts are put up anonymously for some period of time (not sure how long), but then after that period of time, the name is disclosed for credit of punishment?? Is this a good idea, and could this be coded into a/the blog program??
Severity Level 1.
Level 2
Level 3
Send me their address, and I’ll send them a pissed off Gatuh ; )
Wow. If you want to see meta, see BooMan’s multiple interjections this afternoon at http://mobettameta.blogspot.com/ .
A good example of the limits of the keyboard.