Hunter wrote one of the most pessimistic diaries that I have seen on Iraq. Basicly, he outlines a grim future for Iraq in which there will be American troops there for a good long time, although the numbers would be greatly reduced from this year’s figures.
But this is all about a matter of priorities for this country — should we be taking care of someone else’s problems, or should we be taking care of our own first?
Case in point — A McClachty investigation found that over 16 million Americans are living in severe poverty.
Hunter, in his diary, gives three possible grim outcomes that he fears might happen in Iraq:
1) There are going to be American troops in Iraq for the next ten years, though the numbers will be substantially reduced.
- There are going to be permanent American bases in Iraq, just as the neoconservatives had desired.
- Iraq is going to continue to be in a period of instability for years, and become a true haven for terrorism and religious strife, and there is very little we can do about it.
He continues:
To this day — to this very day — I would support leaving American forces in Iraq if there were any credible possibility of stabilizing the country.
This reasoning is based on a totally faulty premise — the premise that we are somehow still in control of the situation at any level. The posturing of the Bush administration and their massive phony offensives, including the so-called “surge,” has had its effect — it is widely believed, even in Democratic circles, that we somehow have some kind of control over the situation. But with the massive bombings taking place all over Iraq with ever-increasing sophistication and intensity, all of this shows that we in fact have no control anymore whatsoever over the situation.
In the meantime, think of what we could be doing instead — finding ways of addressing the poverty situation and keeping the poor from becoming hungry or homeless. With all the hundreds of billions of dollars that we are spending on the occupation of Iraq, think of all the solar and wind power plants we could build. We could get out of the Middle East, build a solar or wind farm in every county of the country, and bring in massive new revenues for schools and local governments, which could turn around and spend the money on anti-poverty programs. Not only that, we could get an ethanol or biofuel plant in every town that has over 10,000 people. In addition, we spend money for research and design so that we could find ever-more efficient ways of producing alternative fuels so that we could lower our carbon footprint on this earth.
The fact of the matter is that we are much more effective when we live by moral example than we do by military might. We spent billions of dollars in unnecessary nuclear weapons and brought the world to the brink of nuclear war in the 1980’s. On more than one occasion, we almost died. Yet what brought down the Soviet Union was not our military might, but the moral example of our country, which was a living example to the rest of the world about what a country could accomplish for its people through a liberal democracy.
And the same could be accomplished in the Middle East. The best way to bring down extreme Islamism is not through military prowess, but through the example of our democracy, showing the rest of the world the way forward. Iran has a disproportionate number of young people. They all love everything about American culture and our way of life. If we could back off from our militaristic ways and work on leading by example, these people would be the vanguard of a movement to overthrow the dictators of Iran and restore democracy to that country for the first time since 1953.
Hunter then goes on to talk in apocalyptic language about what might happen should we leave:
If leaving the current troop levels in place could truly prevent another 100,000 Iraqi deaths, then it would be our duty to do it. If Petraeus’ plan had a reasonable chance of working, it would be our obligation to try. A miserable truth, yes, but a moral truth nonetheless.
Because some of the possible outcomes, here — civil war, genocide, religious radicalization leading to possible regional war — are nearly unthinkable and yet, thanks to the bungling, almost incomprehensible incompetence of the Bush administration, we’re thinking them. The odds continue to be extremely high that one of those worst case scenarios — and you know you are truly and deeply sunk when there are multiple worst case scenarios vying for prominence — may indeed happen.
But the fact of the matter is that the Iraqi people have to want to build a better country for themselves. If they wish to split up into three different countries, then who are we to tell them no? Unless our handover was nothing more than a charade. No amount of military force will prevent the situation from spiraling out of control if the Iraqi people are not willing to accept our authority or the authority of the people that we put into place. The Iraqi people have to solve their own problems.
If there is to be a genocide in Iraq, it will happen regardless of anything that we ever do about it. Note that I said above that the situation has spiraled completely out of our control. That includes genocide.
And Hunter misses another basic point. No occupation will ever work unless we have the consent of the governed. No reasonable person can argue that we have the support of the Iraqi people. We did not have the consent of the governed in Vietnam, and the British did not have the consent of the governed back in 1776. And the opposition to our presence in Iraq is a lot stronger than the opposition to the other two occupations.
And Hunter labors under another false premise:
But a Vietnam-style abandonment of the country seems extraordinarily unlikely.
But Hunter, right above that statement, admits:
the best case scenario is a slow bleed if we stay, and a slow bleed if we go.
In other words, our presence there is having no effect on the situation. But as for the faulty premise of withdrawal meaning abandonment, no, I would never advocate that we abandon Iraq. We should take John Kerry’s advice and convene a regional conference between the neighboring powers over the future of Iraq. In other words, help them develop a plan to stabilize the violence in Iraq and handle the inevitable refugee crisis that will result. We should take in a sizable number of refugees from Iraq like we did Vietnamese refugees after that war was over. We should have talks with other countries about taking in refugees as well. In that event, at least a few will be able to start new lives again and get away from the horror of their homeland.
And it is a known fact that immigrants create jobs — many of these refugees could create jobs for which they could hire some of the people here in this country who are extremely poor. Established businesses would create new jobs to handle the new arrivals and fill the new demand.
The fact of the matter is that the situation there is a slow bleed if we stay and a slow bleed if we go. If we go, we can at least begin to address our own problems here at home and free up the money that was used for Iraq to be used to rescue people from poverty. If we stay, we will have an even bigger problem on our hands — taking care of the Iraqi people and taking care of our own people as well.
Thank you.
More people have to think this way, & besides that, why are people listening to those who say it will get worse if we leave. How would anyone know that? No one knows what will happen, but not changing one`s position, on that premise, is being a defeatist, especially if the end result is the same, according to the quotes you posted by Hunter. I was disappointed in the man when I read his diary.
There should always be eternal hope.
why didn’t you post this at dk? As far as I’ve seen, Hunter doesn’t post here.
Maybe he would comment here, possibly?
I had already posted a diary before he posted his.
When you are able?
I sincerely hopeyou do, but then, I hope you don’t — because I have seen firsthand what happenes to diarists who taken on the powers that be over there, no matter what the topic.
And, of course, you’d have to change the title,. since you can’t “call out” people in the titles.
ANOTHER stupid rule at DKos, imnsfho.
but you weren’t banned because at the critical point, you apologised. you even apologised to a trifling like elise–and my criticisms of you aside–which you well know–there is more substance to you than those triflings.
yeah imnsfho, you failed to be radical, to tear at the root. because you believed dk was the biggest game in town and a route to fame.
see how much it matters to be big at dk, the site committed to electing democrats who do nothing whatsoever?
In defense of MSOC, dk is the biggest game in town, like it or not. And MSOC is definitely radical. I disagree with her often because she is radical, but her being radical is one of the things that people absolutely adore about her.
FIN- back on topic!
dk is losing readership, in addition to banning some of its avid readers. I made it to jotter’s 2006 big readers list–do you think there is no impact when a faithful reader gets banned? Because that person might recommend diaries and comments that the rest of the herd doesn’t. It is hilarious that the “high impact” diaries now include those that no one recommends.
I’ve seen it all, and it drives me nuts that your contribution to this discussion is a swipe at ‘orange’. If you hate the place so much, why were you so upset at being de-linked?
I’m just a little POd because I think EH’s post here is a valid response to Hunter’s post. I see truths in both, and it bugs me when the responses go off topic and have little to do with the subject matter at hand.
Kind of like this reply. I’m a hypocrite. What can I say?
EH would be fine posting this over there (with a different title, granted), though it would bring a lively discussion. He’s plenty respected there and seems to have a thick skin.
Good post. I see no reason or evidence why Iraq will allow permanent U.S. military presence in the country. Hunter simply assumes this will happen without a convincing explanation.
The current Iraqi government is a puppet of the U.S. That is why it will allow permanent bases.
Karen Kwiatkowski, who has worked in the Pentagon and so knows how those people think, also believes that the U.S. will keep those permamnent bases indefinitely:
Truthdig interview
Again, your quote is strictly from a U.S. view, not an Iraqi view. It’s not about what the U.S. wants, it is about what the Iraqis will allow. And the Mahdi Army is certainly not a puppet of the U.S. military. And the Mahdi Army has enormous influence over the continued existence of Maliki’s government. If anything, Maliki is a puppet of Sadr and the Mahdi Army.
Even if the U.S. tried to lock up troops in their armed fortresses, without the approval of the Iraqis they would be sitting ducks for attack as soon as they went outside the fortified walls, thus negating the whole purpose of a military base.
stay in Iraq forever, or as long as the US lasts, which is not quite the same thing:
Iraq is part of the war for oil. Even if the US cannot get Iraqi oil out of the ground (because of sabotage, say) it is not going to let anyone else take that oil out of the ground either. So either way, the US stays in Iraq. Permanently.
True, this is destabilizing the Middle East. What of that?
To end the occupation, you must end the War for Oil. To end the War for Oil, you must reduce the constituency for it: Quit driving, quit consuming, and in the absence of abstinance at least reduce your dependence sharply; prepare to pay higher prices, and THEN REFUSE to support the war.
It won’t be easy and the prospects are poor.
But again, what of that? The window of happy outcomes–for the US–has long since closed. Perhaps we can still hope to avoid the very worst.
Hunter missed that point as well.
why didn’t you challenge him on the site where you are a long time Trusted User?
I had already written my diary for the day.
I believe that at least part of what Miss Devore is saying is directed at making appropriate comments in the original Hunter thread.
I looked to see if I could find a challenge from EH in the offending Hunter diary.
but: nevermind.
carrion.
You asked twice, she answered twice. Move on.
I am decrepit enough to understand the dk one diary a day rule, but in the over 400 comments to the Hunter diary, I saw nary a protest from EH.
So my implied contention that dkossers post here stuff they would not post there isn’t beside the point.
But SO FUCKING WHAT??!!
It is DANGEROUS to voice heterodox opinions on DKos. You get swarmed by thugs.
I think your comments here are starting to border on stalking.
you think I don’t know about voicing opposition at dk?
and then you turn around and use the ruse of “stalking” when I am simply replying to comments made in a diary.
hey, if you’d like to carry it on to some big blogdrama level and troll-rate me, fine.
It’s a simple point: even the TU crowd (and I was one for so long) doesn’t dare post dissent of the dk bigwigs for fear of penalty.
and that’s just sad.
like one cannot exist without the sanction of the BBB’s.
oh the glorious internet with all its free speech implications reduced to fear of troll-rating.
I’m not dead:
http://missdevore.wordpress.com/
Well, you’re right that “stalking” is an exaggeration, but it does seem you’re beating the dead horse pretty hard.
And I’m not troll-rating. I don’t think your comments are trollish. Just obnoxious enough to comment on. I was reading through the comments, following what everyone else had to say, and I thought your comments stood out as obnoxious and distracting.
I agree with you that it’s sad that people are scared of dissenting at DKos. But I don’t think it’s fair to accuse any particular diarist of being a coward on that account.
when a woman there posted an excellent diary in reply to Hunter (which absolutely demolished his “permanent bases, love ’em or shut up” screed).
Her diary was deleted. Quickly. It lasted about half an hour, maybe less.
Permanent bases. Accept them. It’s the new NeoKos party line.
I have no idea who wrote it or why a reasonable person would choose to delete it. I have to run, but I could post mine over there first thing tomorrow morning and see what kind of a response I get.
Again, this is all from a totally U.S. perspective, as if the Iraqis and Iranians and Syrians etc. have no voice or leverage in the matter. If that were true, then Mission Accomplished would actually have occurred in 2003 and been just that: mission accomplished. The point here is that the U.S. now has very little flexibility or options in Iraq except to either stay the course and die forever or to withdraw and cede the country back to the Iraqis completely. If there was a Plan C, you would see it. If what we are seeing now is the Plan C, then it is on its last gasp for lack of fresh U.S. troops and astounding unpopularity throughout the U.S. and the world. The simplistic idea that this is all about oil neglects the fact that both Sunni and Shia militias are now and can continue to sabotage the oil supply in Iraq forever, just as they have for the past 4 years. This is not about oil for the Sunni and Shia and Kurds and they run the show — not the U.S — and this trend will strengthen as time goes on.
but staying and dying forever, IS the plan, more or less. There is undoubtably a thought that the troublesome populations of the oil-rich regions can be somehow removed. I won’t say how. You can guess, and it may not work, but most surely it is being considered.
Oil may not be governing the strategies of the Kurds, Sunnis, and Shi’ites, and surely they feel no obligation to perform according to our convenience, but oil rules American strategy everywhere in the world.
Keep in mind that even if the US loses control in Iraq, there is still the spoiler effect: The US will keep oil off line rather than let someone else get it. Or let it be produced and sold outside of the dollar-based markets (which is perhaps the real point).
Changing American strategy will be neither likely nor easy. Yet it is worth trying, because it is a strategy of national death, and international murder. It is a strategy that negates what is left of our national values and virtues. It is a strategy of the short term that cannot conceive of any existence at all beyond the mid-term. It is a strategy of total destruction, most especially for ourselves.
It is the strategy that is running the American government–and not just the Executive–right now.
with the well-being of Iraqis.
If it did, we would have left years ago.
If it did, we would not have organized death squads (the militias).
If it did, we never would have invaded, and we certainly would not have used depleted uranium munitions.
(We would not have used white phosphorus, either.)
I think the sickest part of the sick joke is that Americans still imagine we are doing other than harm in the world.
We aren’t. Deal with it. Everyone else has to.
As an opening disclaimer, I respect Hunter’s writings, so I kinda cringed when I saw the title of your essay.
With that being said, this is a very well presented essay, and I appreciate your time and effort in sharing your thoughts (from an “eternally hopeful” perspective) :^)
Thank you.
In my view everyone is entitled to their opinion &, in a place like this, is free to express it.
That said – this is a pretty vapid piece of writing. The premise seems to be that ‘we should stop war over there so we can spend that money relieving the plight of the poor over here.’
Well, Sunshine, don’t hold your breath ‘cuz it’ll make ya blue; politics just doesn’t work that way. Even assuming there was political will to tackle that nebulous task (how about something more focused – like ‘universal health care) let’s not even think about the FACT that we, as a nation, are borrowing ourselves into severe financial difficulty to finance this atrocity and, should all war expenditures stop today, there would still be no money to be used to “rescue people from poverty”.
But lets address something more concrete: this post opposes another vapid piece of writing that wasn’t even posted on this board. The post was written by someone who seldom participates here, to respond to someone who participates here even less frequently. Why was it posted here? Because the poster ‘used their diary for the day (at the orange place) on another topic’.
Three suggestions: 1) Keep your powder dry – i.e., don’t write diaries unless you think they are important enough to bother using your precious one-a-day. 2) The sun will come up tomorrow – respond in the appropriate forum then. 3) Keep your disagreements with posters from the orange place, at the orange place.
The post was written by someone who seldom participates here …
Take the diary at face value for what is written and make your judgment with arguments. Eternal Hope is a respected member of this community and has been for a long time, it doesn’t matter how many visits per year he makes to the pond. He is always welcome.
"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."
Right you are – and boy did that post antagonize me. Which is why I wrote that I felt that there was no need for it here.
What the hell is this site all about, and other sites like it if we can’t move the party to the left because too many people think it is impossible? Nobody thought the end of slavery was possible at the start of 1861.
You’re right that we are borrowing like a drunken sailor — which is why we have to pay down the debt by rolling back the Bush tax cuts. And there are other ways of accomplishing that objective such as by getting out of Iraq and onto alternative energy — that would generate tax revenues as would raising the minimum wage.
Just because we should address the poverty issue does not mean that we can’t tackle the massive debt issue as well.
I gave a 2 warning for several reasons, especially the “vapid” charge against a regular member of this community, and your calling her “Sunshine,” which is fairly interpreted as a condescending, prickish, ad hominem attack. (I looked at your diaries and comments a bit, and you seem like a natural ally of the people here, so I don’t think you deserve lower than a 2, for what it’s worth.)
I want to comment on one of your statements. You command: “Keep your disagreements with posters from the orange place, at the orange place.” Where did you get the idea that you have authority to make a command like that? And why do you suppose such a ridiculous command should be followed?
There are only a handful of high-traffic sites on the left blogosphere. Most of us scan through many of them every day. It’s all one super-community in many ways. And at the moment, for better or worse (and I think mainly for worse), DKos is the center. I would guess that most of the regulars here regularly read at DKos, at Atrios, at TPM, at MLW, at Digby, at Greenwald, and at quite a few other fine blogs. We all know who Hunter is, for better or worse. We all saw his stupid diary on this at DKos. It’s an event of the day. It’s perfectly appropriate to discuss it on this smaller (and in some senses satellite) community.
Moreover, there is an additional reason why such a thing is naturally and properly discussed here, although I don’t think it applies to Eternal Hope in this instance here. That is that it is fricking DANGEROUS to post contrary opinions to BigShots at DKos. Personally I welcome people who want to post an occasional rant here about something they read at DKos, and I think most people here agree.
First, ‘vapid’ is a perfectly valid criticism of the post – and I even pointed out where I thought the ‘vapidity’ lay.
Second, ‘motherfucker’, ‘cunt’, ‘moron’ or ‘asshole’ would constitute ad hominem attacks – ‘Sunshine’ is just colorful language.
Third, you will note the word “suggestions” which follows the word “Three” & which precedes the “command” that you are asserting I made. I deny that I “commanded” anything – and reiterate that I made suggestions to the poster.
WRT your third paragraph – I’ll point you to my opening sentence. Yes this is an open forum (unlike DK) & yes, Hope has as much right as anyone to post on any topic she wants to. That said – her disagreement with Hunter over something he posted on Kos (especially something as weak & unimportant as this) ought to stay over there. That is my humble opinion – I could post a pointless diary about it at Kos, if I wasn’t banned over there – an action which Hope firmly supported, I might add.
As for it being dangerous to oppose the powers that be at Kos, I am too aware – Hunter was the fellow who banned me shortly after I told him that, even tho’I was aware that he claimed to have ‘personally’ investigated the 2004 Ohio elections & found “no evidence of wrong-doing”, I still thought there was something fishy & worth looking into.
I’d quote his exact words to you but that portion of the thread is no longer visible to me – that insidious thing that they do there – as bad, in its own way as the Rethug sites like Red State that ban you for disagreeing. On Kos you get banned for disagreeing ‘too much’. :-/
All that being said – I think you owe me a 3. 😉
A 4 for a fellow DK bannee.
and one that apparently Congress is in denial about is the fact our Constitution does not advocate our support the use of our military or treasury for nation building, democracy building or policing other nations.
the notion we can just overlook this abuse of our Constitution is a dangerous one.
Eternal Hope posted this diary today at DKos–and about 3/4ths of the comments concern pissy objections to naming Hunter in the diary title.