Originally posted at the Independent Bloggers’ Alliance
When I learned about this weekend’s Blog Against Theocracy, I started brainstorming some ideas for posts. This is an issue that has been important to me for some time for a number of reasons. On the most basic level, it goes against my understanding of what my faith (actually all major faith traditions) requires of me, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” I wouldn’t want to be treated like a second class citizen because of my beliefs or lack thereof, so how can I, as someone who tries to follow the teachings of Jesus, condone or accept it when others are treated that way? Also, as a parent, I have learned a little bit about persuasion–or, more specifically, the types of persuasion that are most likely to backfire. I know that if you try to force something on someone, it could end up being the last thing they will choose.
My son is almost 14, and there was never a time in his life that he believed in God in any traditional sense. But he has fluctuated to some degree between agnostic and staunchly, almost evangelically atheistic. What makes the difference? When he has been around people who seem to have an agenda and want to push religion, he pushes back, digging in his heels and becoming more anti-religion. But when he’s been in an environment, such as the local Unitarian Universalist church where his “I don’t believe in God” was met with, “A lot of us don’t either”, then he has been more open to the “maybe” of God. So if my ultimate goal is for him to embrace Christianity, I’ve learned that the approach with the best chance of success would be a really soft sell. As in, acting like I don’t really care that much. And I wonder how many people out there in the world might be more open to religion if there weren’t people trying to force it on them.
Last September, Rob Boston from Americans United for the Separation of Church and State came to speak here in Columbus. You can read his whole talk here, but I’ve excerpted the section that addresses theocracy, and why a secular state is good for both the church and the state.
As I mentioned a moment ago, I see secularism as a sort of a platform upon which our religious liberty and our freedoms rest. Secularism as a legal principle means simply this, that the government is neutral toward religion. Neutral, not hostile. As applied in our First Amendment, the principle of secularism means that the state neither advances religion, nor inhibits religion. Now there are alternatives to secularism as a legal principle. And I would challenge those who are attacking the secular state to tell me which alternative they would like to see us adopt in the United States.
One alternative would be the legal establishment of a single church. We’ve had that in our history. If you go back, and you look at the colonial experience, you’ll find examples of that. The Masssachusetts Bay Colony, for example, was a Puritan theocracy–a single established church. Some of the southern colonies had Anglicanism as their established faith, an example of this would be Virginia. And obviously, we know of examples today where you have a single established church. The Church of England, for example.
The question becomes, how satisfying is this arrangement for both the church and the state, and I would answer, not very. Think for a minute about the modern examples of an established church, in the western world. What you find there is really kind of a house-kept, neutered state church. It doesn’t really do much. You know, they drag out the bishops in their nice robes and their fancy accoutrements whenever there’s a royal wedding or a state funeral, but by and large, their subservience to the state is obvious, and their political voice is nonexistent. Their imact on the larger society is nil. And certainly their churches are not growing. In fact, they often sit empty on weekends–or maybe they’ll be 1/4 full.
Now, the state may find this arrangement satisfying, after all, it manages to sort of quiet a voice that has historically challeneged government officials–religious leaders. But when they pay them off with subsidies or symbolic support, they don’t have to worry about that any more. Now this single established model is something that grows out of the Middle Ages, before that, the Byzantine Empire, before that, the late Roman Empire. But you find that–my opinion is–it’s outlived its usefulness. And smarter church leaders know this.
On January 1, 2000, at the stroke of midnight, the state established church in the country of Sweden, which was the Lutheran church, was disestablished, after hundreds of years of being the official church of Sweden. And it was the clergy of the Lutheran church who led the drive for disestablishment. Why did they do it? Probably because church attendance rates had dropped into the single digits. A free church, they argued, might be just the shot in the arm that religious groups need to get them back into the game.
Now that’s one model. There’s another way to go. You can have a multiple establishment. We could have a couple of different religions, or maybe ten or twenty or fifteen, Christian denominations or what have you, get some kind of preferential treatment from the government. There are countries that do this in the west right now–Germany is a good example. In that country, workers pay a tax that goes to a Protestant denomination or the Catholic church as they allocate. Now, this makes the churches quite well off–imagine that, if you’re getting a cut of every worker’s paycheck, even if it’s a small amount, it’s a pretty good deal.
But again, we must ask ourselves, how does this help the vitality and the life of the church? Well, again, if we look at the statistics in Germany and other nations that have this multiple establishment model, the church attendance is very low, and the churches don’t have much of a public voice.
The other option would be, the theocracy–the theocratic state. This is more common today in the hard line Muslim nations. It’s not so much a western phenomenon. A complete merger of religion and government. Now under this model, the established faith doesn’t play a symbolic role. It instead takes an active role in influencing, or actually running, the government. Now, its faults are numerous, and they’re very prominent. Probably most prominent among its faults is the idea that holy books are notoriously difficult to interpret, and they are open to many different interpretations. Therefore, in a theocratic state, it becomes the job of some supreme religious leader to decide which interpretation of the holy book will hold sway over the entire population. In hard line Muslim nations, narrow interpretations of sacred writings have led to the subjugation of women, absolute control of the media and the arts, public beheadings and state-sponsored mutilations in sports stadiums, crackdown on all forms of political dissent, and the absence of free elections. Pardon me for not being enthusiastic about this model.
Now, our founding fathers were familiar with all these models. So that brings us back to the secular state–why do we have a secular state? Because the founding fathers were familiar with all these models. The Massachusetts Bay Colony was a theocracy. Mutiple establishment was in some colonies, single establishment was in other colonies. They didn’t even have to look beyond the shores of the new nation to see these models in action. The only real kind of secular state model at that time would have been Rhode Island, founded by the iconoclastic preacher Roger Williams, who allowed all religious groups to worship in his colony, even those that he disagreed with. But that was not the most common experience. That was an unusual thing to do. It was taken as a given throughout much of the founding period that of course religion and government needed to be related, of course there needed to be some kind of relationship. I’m not really aware of any country that dared to separate religion and government before we did, and establish a truly secular state.
You can read the rest here, including Boston’s musings about why our third president might be considered “unelectable” given the slide toward theocracy that has taken place in this country over the years.
Details about participating can be found here
http://blogagainsttheocracy.blogspot.com
So if my ultimate goal is for him to embrace Christianity, I’ve learned that the approach with the best chance of success would be a really soft sell.
I should not get involved in this, but here goes!
Why is this your ultimate goal, and if imprinting is alive and well, you probably do not need to worry about it in truth. A corollary to this is unchanging racial strife forever as long as imprinted religious soldiers carry on their tradition of mine is the real one, not any other! Wouldn’t it be good if we could all go through these imprintable years with an open, logical mind making the calls????
I’m with NG, on this one, Renee (nix that ‘soft sell’ dichotomy).
No minor should be forced, cooerced, or expected to attend church, or to believe in God (or the Tooth Fairy & the Easter Bunny).
It’s a belief system, and has no business being shoved down the throats of the American public (as is being done by the shrub regime & their so-called NeoFascist theocracy bullshit).
They’re all criminals; and should be thrown in ‘gaol.’
Orgainized religion has no place in legislation or in policy.
I say this as an ardent free thinking atheist–spirituality is an entirely different thang.
I hail from a long line of Bible thumpin’ Puritan nutjobs, thanks (from various family lines–Rev. Wm. Worcester being one of ’em). Hell, he was too radical for Great Britian! My line spells it Wooster (enunciated in Maine lingo as “Woos’tuuuh”).
“He was made Vicar of Olney July 26, 1624 – which office he retained till 1636, when on account of refusing to comply with the command of his superiors to read to his congregation from the King’s book those portions which allowed sports and recreations after service on the Lord’s day, he was suspended from his office of Vicar. He came to America a year or two later. He and others petitioned the General Court of Massachusetts to establish a new settlement.”
Through age 4, I attended Sunday school @a Baptist church (horrors); and I have a really dorky photo of my class–all decked out in tacky Easter garg (esp. the white gloves, patent leather shoes, and funky flowered hat).
Fortunately, we moved to So. Maine–my life could’ve really taken a downturn (all we did was color pictures in those early yrs.); and no–I didn’t know what was happening–my parents dropped me off; and I had no choice (or clue).
I’ve never met a four yr. old who does have a clue about higher orders of cognition…that’s why they’re four…should be a kid (learning how to socialize w/their peers in the everyday world).
I attended Sunday school & sang in its junior choir (First Congregational, mandatory in all New England towns during the Colonial settlement era via Harvard College—couldn’t receive land grants w/o one)!
We were “owned” (literally) by Boss-A-Chew-Zits (Massachusetts Bay Colony, and still remember said subordination in 2007).
There were pew taxes, things were rigid, and you did as your were told (or were shunned/flogged/cast aside by the entire community).
Hardly “Christian-like,” IMMHO.
However, this is 2007, folks…those rules no longer are applicable.
It was my idear; and I cobbled together the hypocrisy around 8th gr. Never returned (and this wasn’t a terribly hell-fire and damnation type of churchin’).
My ancestors are buried in the adjacent historical cemetery–they were early deacons.
They donated land in the local cemetery to the Catholics (who for some odd reason, have to have their own turf); and donated land in another adjacent town (to build a freakin’ Baptist Church; which is still standing, but I doubt that it’s brimming w/parishioners).
Part of that paternal line went Methodist somewhere in the latter 1800s-1950s or so.
Another line, I have a wackjob ancestor, who was a fire-breathin’ Free Will Calvinist Baptist preacher (and was also the town’s postmaster and selectboard member for decades).
(Rev. Benjamin Penney–typo in newspaper which follows):
“Mariaville, July 3, Mr. GEORGE B. BRIMMER, age 51 years, 3 months. He met with a change of heart some years ago but did not make a public profession till last September when he was baptized by Rev. Benjamin Penny and united with the Free Baptist Church in Mariaville. He was sick some 7 months and suffered very much. He leaves a widow and only son, and aged widowed mother who looked to him to care for her, together with a brother and sister. Funeral service July 5 attended by the writer, E. Harding.”
[….]
No thanks.
Families are institutions of social control; and children don’t need yet another one in their lives (although learning about different religions in the world is a totally different thang).
Progressive folks in this area (if they attend church @all) attend this one.
It’s one of the few which doesn’t trash feminists and GLBTQ types (note from their portal that they even had to combine congregations w/another branch, due to declining membership). …all of which means no $$$$$$$.
It’s that way throughout the nation…Baby Boomers said “no thanks.”
Used birth control (flat birth rate affects demographics, for sure), for one thang–which means that the older members are dying off; and nobody’s replacing ’em.
There’s nothing more patriarchal (systemically speaking) than organized religion, BTW.
When doing my geneaology, my 12th generation is the first one which went Democratic party (progressively speaking).
It all flies in the face of intellectualism and critical thinking systems analyses; and is hardly spiritual (nor does it fit my dichotomy of what’s required to be a decent person while alive; and/or what constitutes spirituality–it’s all subjective).
My cousins chose not to worship (although, they may attend on holidays, but I strongly doubt it).
We wanted no part of it for ourselves, or for our children.
And no, the Jehovah’s haven’t banged on my door for the past two weeks (and left their litter/tracts behind for me to dispose of); however, some other radical bunch did attempt to stick a flyer in my doorjamb; and I intensely resent the intrusion of my ‘space’.
…as well as the incessant litter (which I do pick up & dispose of).
Let your Son in Ohio be “The Decider.”
The problem with the argument of those who would say “No minor should be forced, coerced, or expected to attend church, or to believe in God” is that it presumes that there is no God or that belief in this or that God is functionally – if not ontologically – irrelevant. From their perspective training one’s child religiously is much akin to the Hitler Youth program, even though forcing children to pledge allegiance to the flag and honor the national anthem seems a lot closer to der Führer’s intentions. Obviously, parents have a responsibility to raise their children, and the whole point of the establishment clause of the 1st Amendment was to keep government out of those family decisions – it’s purpose (as Jefferson himself emphasized) was to keep government out of religion, not to keep religious ideas and ideals out of government.
Ultimately, parents are to teach their children to survive and thrive in this world as best they know how, and if their religion plays a role in that then such instruction – including hard and soft sells – will be part of the children’s raising, and if staying as far away from organized religion plays a role in that then such instruction – including hard and soft sells – will be part of the children’s raising.
Where they stand on religion in general seems to dictate what people believe about the religious training of children within the child’s own families.
As I woke this morning I started to think about Pat Robertson’s “gang” including Monica Goodling. He set up a law school specifically to train ultra-right wing theists and infiltrate the government. (I’d love to see their version of a con law class.) Then he got the President elected who would put them in office.
We know the top political appointees. But we may never know how many have been given low level jobs that won’t automatically be vacated when a Democrat becomes president. We also know that a significant part of our failure in Iraq recontstruction (the stupidity of the war notwithstanding) was due to the appointment of such green, poorly trained hacks to jobs for which they had no background.
If another nation had put such a sleeper cell into our government, it would be war. Is Pat Robertson (who calls for the assassination of foreign leaders and thinks he can order votes) truly American, or is this another “foreign” sleeper cell?