You wrote this post without seriously examining the facts that created the controversy in the first place: the death and rape threats blogger Kathy Sierra received at her blog, and elsewhere on the net.
I understand that any blogger can make this kind of mistake. You saw an issue that might impact your business, and the free speech of all online bloggers. You wanted to come out strongly against any regulation or censorship of online speech. And that’s a reasonable and laudable position to take. You just happened to pick the wrong incident to exploit for that purpose, as many others across the liberal blogosphere have noted. Perhaps Jessica at Feministing said it best:
[I]t’s one thing to argue–as Markos does–that a blogger code of conduct would be ineffective. Fine. But dismissing online misogyny and Sierra’s experience (without even bothering to do any research on the subject, to boot) is reprehensible.
And this from Melissa at Shakesville is also very much on point:
I could write four paragraphs or so here documenting all the research done on stalking and threat conversion against women, but, frankly, I don’t think numbers and stats are even necessary. Every male blogger to whom I’ve ever spoken about receiving rape threats reacts with horror and shock because they don’t get them. It’s a very different series of tubes for women and men, and it’s really disappointing that the most prominent progressive blogger doesn’t seem to recognize nor care that it’s so. And, worse yet, tells those of us who do we ought just bugger off with our silly concerns for our own and others’ safety.
People of color and members of the LGBT community are disproportionately targeted as victims of hate crimes; the solution is not more segregation. People with developmental disabilities and untreated mental illness leaving them vulnerable are also disproportionately targeted for harassment; the solution is not hiding them away from society in dreary but allegedly safe asylums. When female soldiers are raped, the answer is not to ban women from military service.
We are meant to be champions of integration, not exclusion, of placing the responsibility for harassment squarely where it belongs—on the harasser, not on the victim of harassment.
So, what should you do now? You could ignore the criticism, or make excuses for your error, like Don Imus and his loyal gang of sycophants have tried to do in the case of the racial slurs the I-Man directed at the Rutgers women’s basketball team. You could claim you were misunderstood, or that people took your words out of context, or employ any of a number of other rhetorical devices to obfuscate and obscure that what you wrote about Ms. Sierra was fundamentally wrong. In other words, you could act like Hillary Clinton has done regarding her vote to give Bush the authority to invade Iraq.
But that wouldn’t be right, and I think in your heart you know that. So do the right thing.
Apologize, without any conditions or excuses, to Kathy Sierra and to all the women bloggers whose characters have been sullied by your callous and ill considered remarks. Publish another front page post at your blog admitting that you were grossly mistaken when you made light of the severity of the vicious verbal attacks and threats posted online against Kathy Sierra, and implied that her legitimate response to such inexcusable and terrifying abuse resulted from a lack of testicles on her part.
Man up, in other words. It’s not a sign of weakness to admit one’s mistakes. It’s a sign of maturity, a demonstration that you are big enough to admit that you were wrong. A lot of people, whether they like you personally or not, will respect you if you do. Even more important, I think you’d respect yourself a lot more, too.
Think it over. It’s never too late to make amends for the wrongs we do in life. That’s what I tell my two kids anyway.
Three Updates are now below the fold.
Update [2007-4-13 10:49:32 by Steven D]: This update references questions in the thread asking if I have posted this at Daily Kos, or if I will be doing so.
I have emailed Markos through his contact page at Daily Kos. I don’t believe this diary would generate a productive discussion at Daily Kos, and so I chose not to post it there. In any event, Markos has received hundreds of comments to his original post at his blog, so further discussion of it by that community would only hash over much of what has previously been discussed there.
However, if Kos requests I post this response over there, I will.
2nd Update [2007-4-13 13:44:7 by Steven D]: MB at Wampum has a nice collection of links to other liberal blogs who have posted about this issue.
Here’s MB’s list:
Zuzu at Feministe
Jessica at Feministing
Belledame at Fetch Me My Axe
Echnide of the Snakes
Mark at Norwegienty
Jill at Brilliant at Breakfast
Bitch PhD
Chris at Creek Running North
Kip at Long Story, Short Pier
Bruce at Crablaw
Melissa at Shakesville
Jeff at Blog of the Moderate Left
Interrobang
Stephen at The Thinkery
Amp at Alas, A Blog
Amanda at Pandagon
Lindsey at Majikthise
Dan at Fitness for the Occasion
Nezua at The Unapologetic Mexican
My dear friend, Natasha, at Pacific Views (N. and I have a history of dealing with this kind of cyber-crap.)
Kevin at Slant Truth
Aaron at Faithfully Liberal
Ntodd at Dohiyi Mir
Trifecta at PairOfDimes
Steven D at Booman Tribune
Sheelzebub at Pinko Feminist Hellcat
Myra at Reno and Its Discontents
twoluvcats at a wealth of semi-useless information!
Scott at Lawyers, Guns and Money
.
3rd Update [2007-4-13 14:12:8 by Steven D]: BornAgainDem posted a diary at Daily Kos on Thursday which argued Markos should issue an apology. That diary can be found here. I think the comment thread gives a fair idea of how the DKos community would react to this post.
.
Excellent piece of writing Steven, claiming to be liberal, yet not able to position oneself in a situation of the weak, poor or socially disadvantaged is a contradiction in terms. Just like the British Labor leader and PM Tony Blair with his remarks this week on crime and ‘black culture’.
In the liberal country of the Netherlands, all personal death threats on the Internet are taken seriously. The hate murders of Pim Fortuyn and Theo van Gogh has illustrated the result of years building up hatred within communities. In recent years, these hate attacks through Internet has targeted top soccer coaches, referees and politicians like PM Balkenende and (former) member of parliament Hirsi Ali.
Even the first blog death threat I received on Markos Moulitsas’ own Daily Kos by hamletta was a great shock to me.
"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."Are you going to put this in orange? Because Markos officially does not recognize Booman Tribune, remember?
Also, perhaps you are being too hard and culturally insensitive on Markos. He comes from Latin America, after all, which is not exactly a feminist Utopia. Maybe you shouldn’t be imposing your Anglo sentiments on a Latino immigrant.
Snark -right?
The part about not imposing sentiments was snark.
Based on the abject poverty found throughout Central and S. America, I’d say that it isn’t anyone’s Utopia – financially speaking. Except for generals and CEO’s of large multi-nationals.
But, are you really saying that a male of Latino background is less sensitive to women’s issues? That would be a broad sweeping stereotype.
a broad sweeping stereotype. Yep
You know, I’ve always found you to be an insensitive clod – right? 😉
how dare you call me insensitive! I’m organizing a clod march on your locale immediately. 😉
I double dog dare you!
It’s not so much a question of the particular culture itself, as of the level of material well being that is generally associated with that culture.
[trying not to get angry]
“generally associated” – by whom?
I meant associated in the sense of “goes with”. It was a poor choice of words, and I wasn’t very happy with it when I wrote it. I was merely trying to say that how affluent a society is will have an effect on its culture.
Anyway, I have accepted various posters’ corrections of the views I had been expressing. I think stormkite clears up everything below.
I think you’re getting resistance because the broad brush was poking some of us in the eye. At least three of those expressing dissent with what you wrote know Latin American culture as intimately as humanely possible.
Say Wha??????????????????????
this is a pretty ill considered remark Alex.
Special;ly considering that the US has the HIGHEST PERCENTAGE OF RAPE IN THE WORLD
Markos is bicultural. It is hard for Americans to imagine a culture other than their own, so it is hard for them to imagine what it is like to have more than one culture.
I think that it is a valid sociological generalization to say that the idea that women should get the same recognition as men only becomes the prevailing norm in society when men in general, and not just men of privilege, have a dignified and non-precarious existence.
I don’t see what’s wrong with suggesting that a person’s background might have some influence on his or her beliefs.
Maybe cruz or Manny can explain it better than me.
I can’t disentangle the snark.
It appears that you are suggesting that Latino immigrants are less sensitive to violence against women than other people.
Stereotypes are tricky. There are different attitudes about gender roles in Latino culture than there are in mainstream American culture. On that, we could agree. Latino culture is more traditional…more protective of women. But that is a far cry from them being less sensitive to violence or threats against women. If anything, it would suggest the opposite.
I don’t think anything is gained by trying to do remote Bill Frist psychological profiles on Markos by blaming his heritage for his political views.
I think he rushed in to post on a topic without familiarizing himself with the details, and it came off as very obnoxious. He and his wife just had a baby…he’s tired and frazzled. I’m inclined to cut him some slack.
People would be more inclined to cut Markos some slack if this weren’t part of a consistent pattern of behavior towards women’s issues over a 2-year period.
True.
It’s just my impression that he was reading about the code of conduct and thought is was stupid, and that he started from that standpoint. He might have had a totally different take on things if he had started out thinking about what happened to Kathy Sierra…but he admitted he hadn’t even heard about her because he was preoccupied with the birth of his child.
So, I understand why people see it is a part of a pattern. I can see that, too. But, under the circumstances, I have a charitable attitude. I think he just blasted out a post without any serious consideration of Kathy Sierra’s situation. I think there is a lot of unintentional dismissiveness here.
If that’s all it was than he shouldn’t have any problem with admitting he was wrong in another front page post. I’d sure like for that to happen, but I’m far from certain that it will.
Well, I’d probably feel a whole lot more charitable if he’d kept his remarks to the stupidity of a blogger code of conduct without passing judgment on Kathy Sierra and her situation, which (as he himself stated) he knew next to nothing about.
I didn’t mean to suggest that Latino immigrants in general are less sensitive to violence against women than other people, but merely that if this Latino immigrant is less sensitive about that than other liberal bloggers, his background might have something to do with it.
Why some snark was provoked on my part is that I think it’s fair to say that Steven and you for that matter come from privileged backgrounds. Markos on the other hand served in the US Army, something that is not in general associated with privilege. Both you and Steven are puzzled by how Markos could write such a thing, and I am suggesting that class differences might have something to do with this puzzlement.
In The Civilizing Process, the German sociologist Norbert Elias argued that decent behavior toward women, and other forms of social refinement, originated with the aristocracy, and then “trickled down” to other levels of society. Such attitudes are thus the product of a long learning process. With their individualistic, atomistic view of society, American liberals often seem to think that decency is something that should be innate, as opposed to acquired and instilled.
Another thought. Markos lived through a civil war. (I know that from the Wikipedia article on him.) One can conjecture that someone who grew up with people getting killed around him on a regular basis would become desensitized to a certain degree to mere threats that are unlikely to be acted upon.
Excuse me. What do you know about my background to suggest to you that it was privileged. I grew up in a middle class family, true, but with 5 kids we were hardly privileged. I started working when I was 16, and held various jobs as factory worker, janitor, short order cook, stock boy, taxi driver, pharmacy technician (glorified stock boy for a hospital pharmacy) and residential child care counselor (which was the lowest paid job I had, but which was the only one I could get in my field of psychology after completing my undergraduate work). I worked all through college 20-30 hours a week, and all through Law School. I may not have had as difficult a life as some, but I was far from privileged and I resent that remark.
And I’m not even going to go into my health problems which I’ve suffered from my entire life. Before you make assumptions about people to whom you are addressing online — don’t.
As for my attitudes about women, that came to me from my mother and father’s teaching, neither of whom had a privileged life either. My father was the 3rd of five kids of a dirt poor farmer in South Dakota, and only managed to go to college because of track scholarships and later the GI Bill. My mother’s education ended in high school. Both grew up during the Depression, but neither of them held the few that men should disrespect or abuse women. I never saw my father ever strike my mother, and rarely did he have a harsh word for her. All this despite being physically abused by his own father for the sin of going to school and neglecting his chores at the farm.
Markos doesn’t get his insensitivity toward women, to the extent he has them because he suffered more than other people, or because of the “Latino culture.” He owns his own opinions and views just as we all do, and should take responsibility for them.
I am very, very sorry to have jumped to conclusions and hence offended you. Evidently, the class angle was the wrong route to take. The only thing I can say is that I hope I have learned my lesson and will remember it, so that I do not make the same mistake again.
(That’s not to say that Elias’s account is wrong. But once the “civilizing process” is complete, class becomes irrelevant in this regard.)
As for your point that Markos “owns his own opinions and views just as we all do, and should take responsibility for them.” I agree with you, but I would like to point out that that is a particular attitude, and a very Protestant one.
Alexander, put down the shovel.
It’s not a big deal. You’re throwing around some stereotypes that I don’t really think are justified.
Your apology is accepted by me. Leave the protestants out of it.
As for your point about the connection between societal affluence and women’s rights, it could be an interesting debate.
In this country, women’s rights have been moved forward by other factors…the need for women in the workforce during World War Two…the pill…the need for a second income in the post-Vietnam era.
Seems like a diminishment of affluence has a lot to do with an advancement of women’s rights.
I absolutly agree with you.
It appears, though, that you haven’t done much research into the civil war OR Markos’s position in that society.
In El Salvador, especially during the war years, the military RAN the government, and the right wing, from which Markos’s family comes, was very much the side of privilege, rank, and money (both of which conditions largely remain so today). And in that society, membership in the military was VERY much associated with the elites and the privileged class. Membership in the US military, even more so; we trained most of their troops including most of the death squads (which were largely supported by the political right wing and the covert wings of the US government, and which killed many thousand of “leftists,” as well as people who supported them, were suspected of supporting them, or had the poor fortune to live in the same towns as people who might once have actually MET a leftist. Or in many cases, as always, were simply poor and vulnerable.)
Frankly, the fact that Markos’ family was even able to move back and forth during the war years, and that he was able to attend college in the US, puts him well up in the hierarchy of privilege, as far as that goes.
He’s a Salvadoran immigrant, but he’s about as far from a poor campesino refugee boy as it gets.
Frankly, none of this has much to do with his attitude towards women; that’s mostly derived from the fact that he’s an ambitious asshole who knows that in the mainstream of the right wing of US power politics today, being anti-feminist, even a little misogynist in general, is a GOOD thing.
Don’t forget, Kos was a Reaganite for years because the Reagan administration helped the wealthy right wing back home put down the peasant revolts (by force, not justice). At some point, though, it became clear that being a nominal Democrat had more political prospects for a wannabe kingmaker, and wouldn’t actually require him to adopt any particular set of political beliefs. He’s said that he’s not at all ideological, he just wants to win, and he picks his sides, and his stands, on that basis.
Thank you for that very interesting and enlightening biographical sketch. It never occurred to me that Markos’s family might have belonged to the Salvadoran right wing, but it all makes sense now.
I think you’re right on all counts, and I now have a little less regret that I opened this line of discussion than I did a little earlier, just because it provoked your informative post.
My only slight dissent regards your assertion that “none of this has much to do with his attitude towards women.” That may be true, but I still think it’s the case that this has something to do with that attitude. One would be kidding oneself if one said that it is just as easy to imagine a Swede from a liberal academic family, for example, being a misogynist as it is to imagine someone from an essentially fascist Salvadoran family being a misogynist. (This is not to suggest that there are not many misogynist academics.)
I find Markos’ background fairly amusing, given that he owns and runs the flagship liberal blog. And, although other people posting on this thread might disagree, I can’t help feeling that knowing his background helps me understand many of his attitudes, not just his attitude toward women.
Anyway, I think that the discussion I started here is a good example of the common phenomenon that the way you get to the truth is through error. Participation in this kind of blog is often akin to thinking aloud, and BT, together with the European Tribune, are the best places on the Web I know to allow open discussion of controversial issues to take place.
Let’s see – my son is Chinese. I am the product of grandparents from different parts of the world and I teach in one of the most ethnically diverse cities (20 languages only 970 students) in the country. I kind of think that I get the idea of different cultures.
To suggest that Markos’s Latin background is the source of his dismissive attitude towards women’s issue is a cop-out… for him. He has risen to a level of celebrity and influence and has done so by tossing aside issues that don’t suit his purpose, women’s issues just being one of them. He does these things out of arrogance.
Based on your reasoning, I, a 2nd generation American, would be completely justified in hating the (all?) Russians for what they did to my Ukrainian brethren. That allows me to not have to judge individuals on their own merits.
While background, of course, plays a role in a person’s attitudes and prejudices, it certainly should not be used as an excuse. Markos is wily enough to know better.
I don’t know. Lot’s of people rise to positions of celebrity and influence without developing a dismissive attitude towards women. (Of course, I don’t personally know that many influential celebrities, so I could be wrong.) It could be simply the result of his arrogance, but one does not exclude the other. (There is the class issue as well, which I bring up in another post.)
As for your point that following my line of reasoning, you would be justified in hating all Russians: explanation does not imply justification.
And as for your point that Markos should be “wily” enough to know better. I find that point of view unacceptably relativistic. What you are saying is that Markos shouldn’t have written what he did not because it is objectively true that one shouldn’t demean women, but because it is not P.C. to demean women.
Interestingly enough, Alec Baldwin wrote the same thing about Don Imus:
As others have observed, it is interesting that outrage about Imus’s remark focused almost exclusively on its racism, ignoring the “ho” aspect. Maybe that undermines my claim that there are lots of influential celebrities that are not dismissive of women.
but I had company for the past day. While I’m glad that Alec Baldwin votes Democratic, I’m not sure that using him to justify white privilege or something close to it doesn’t help.
Markos’s “wiliness” should come from the fact that he seems to project a desire to be a cog in the Democratic Party – thus working closely with people of all sorts – including some pretty ardent feminists.
As far as relativism goes – perhaps the great orange proprietor should have thought of that before suggesting that the threatened blogger should grow a thicker skin. I guess that threats or perceived threats are all relative.
I have been in the position as a teacher where I received creepy letters, from anonymous students. My principal laughed it off. This is not funny and further reason why I do not go to the orange place.
Well said Steven. This is why I don’t participate in a community where I’m expected to ‘submit graciously’ as the Southern Baptists put it, or to just ‘relax and enjoy it.’
Yes Markos, the world is full of violent psychopaths as well as jerks (‘pricks’ as Booman would say it.) Perhaps you haven’t noticed that in the process of turning from violent confrontation to community, we are moving away from tolerance of prickish behavior.
If you’re thinking about offering an insincere apology, ask your wife how much good that will do.
be able to muster much support for this now.
They, and I do mean the strictly controlled Illuminati propaganda machine we call media, has ruined logical debate on race and sex with the Imus affair.
In pointing out how outrageous the posting was you have once again done not only the blogosphere (or whatever title is in vogue)a great service but also the rest of the media as well.
The Kos has contracted that dreaded disease that appears to afflict those that attained a assumed elevated level of celebrity that is uncalled for. The cult of celebrity appears to have this little bug hooked on but as you have pointed out, look at what it can do!
I do hope that a response does appear but I would be shocked if one does. However, when I look around and see the level of acceptability with respect to media mouthpieces I have a rapidly decreasing level of belief. billjpa
I liked BitchPhd’s take on this. My first thought when I read Markos’ take on Kathy Sierra was that implicit approval had just been given for that kind of behavior on his blog. How else can you interpret the suggestion that women who are bothered by rape threats are just whining, need a thicker skin, or are just plain lying?
We’ve been talking about this on various blogs for weeks now. How could someone be so out of touch with these issues? Oh, wait…nevermind.
I don’t really get it either… I honestly don’t understand how Markos’s post is likely to encourage or discourage any of the various threats that blogger or any other public semi-public figure receive. It is not as if those kinds of comments are permitted on dailykos, in general they are rated for the trolls they are.
Markos didn’t condone those kinds of messages and his words aren’t going to effect what kind of e-mail is sent by the general hate-spewing public. 99% of those people who issue such statements are dumb asses spouting off at the mouth, sadly a small fraction of them might actually have the means and motivation to follow up on that threat and that is what makes it scary.
BitchyPhD argued that Markos doesn’t receive his “fair share” of hate e-mail, but her calculation doesn’t take into account that his is also more popular than most other bloggers, so that probably increases his share of hate mail to much more than than he has time to read. I would guess that he took the first dozen or so semi-seriously and then decided that for his sanity he had to just laugh them off, including those aimed at his wife and children.
I understand that threats and hate mail suck, but really don’t understand how his message was offensive. I get that telling people essentially that if they can’t take the heat to get out of the fire, isn’t that compassionate, but it is the best he can come up with.
By suggesting that Sierra’s complaints about the violent rape threats she received are merely whining, or not having a thick enough skin, or even possibly being lies or exaggerations, Markos has made clear to his readers what they can expect from him in terms of a response to those types of comments and threats.
I highly doubt that Markos receives the kind of sexualized threats that many women are subjected to on a regular basis.
No, I imagine that the threats aren’t sexualized in the same way. He probably does get plenty of messages calling him gay or that he is sleeping with some politician that he support, but that is very different.
I don’t think that he intended to imply that issuing threats is at all acceptable. I think he meant to say that he doesn’t see any solutions anytime soon other than ignoring/ deleting them, or removing yourself from the public sphere. It is pretty much impossible to do either of those completely anyway.
It is pretty close to the advice I would give BooMan on his “blogger paparazzi”: “You just have to ignore them”, “You should see it as a compliment”, “If they make you stop posting, then they win.”
Actually, as I see it the kind of people who appear to be stalking you are much more threatening that someone who sends one hateful message. If they know where you live and send lots of messages then they really are scary.
Everywhere.
Imus is just one symptom of the change.
What was “acceptable” just a few years ago is suddenly NOT acceptable.
Quantum leap time.
Critical mass has been reached.
The ’06 elections were the first sign.
This will continue into ’08.
A NEW set of fools and criminals will lead us into the next segment.
Just as it has always been.
But they will be a better set of fools and criminals.
And that is not snark.
As above, so below.
Moulitsas.
The Imus of the left blogosphere.
Delicious.
Markos…
I got yer “pie fight”.
Right HERE!!!
Later…
AG
would start flying!
Of course Markos doesn’t get it and he never has (otherwise why the pie fights?) I think Steven’s diary is to the point. You cannot ignore threats to women and expect the blogosphere be egalitarian.
You are right, of course, Steven. But expecting the purveyor of the sanctimonious women’s studies set meme to apologize is perhaps expecting something that is beyond him at this time. He needs to begin to understand/recognize that there is a problem before he will see the need to apologize. Unfortunately, those who might best educate him, assuming that he was willing, left dkos during the pie wars.
I am a ‘sanctimonious women’s studies minor,” BTW.
In addition, I’m 51 1/2 yrs. of age, which means that I possess institutional memory, which Markos cannot claim.
I’ve lived a lifetime of misogyny; and we older feminists don’t tolerate that fucking shit (from younger male punks–or, from any overt misogynist of any age).
We’re intelligent (no, I’ll never apologize for it).
…that’s a threat to status quo to the “big boys” in the [not-so-progressive] blogosphere.
It’s the same in my county Dem committee–I let our Chair have it upside the haid via email a month ago–too many damned women were on the “bring food” for a fundraiser list; and I damned well ripped him a new one for it.
I refuse to particpate…it’s that simple.
If he’s pissed off, I could give a sweet fuck (nor will I donate a penny to said county committee’s fundraising effots, or attend tomorrow’s meeting…or any meetings in the foreseeable future).
“Google a fucking entree recipe,” was my retort.
Furthermore, I don’t CARE whether he liked it, or not.
We call them on the cybercarpet for their unending misogyny (i.e., trivializing, minimizing, blame-shifting, & denigration of “women’s issues” as being ‘single issues’-related reproductive rights drivel).
Spot-on.
A woman’s sexuality is the core of her essence of being–too many unwanted children ruins ‘yer life’s continuum of social, economic, & political power…that’s a fact, Jack.
Anyone w/half a brain can discern that!
Duh.
{applause}
Hey mainefem…I know this is a very serious subject but ..”google a fucking entree recipe” is now going to be my own shorthand response to stupid sexist remarks or actions…that retort is quite delicious.
I’ve never hit “Reply to all” on an email; however, two (new) women members of the county committee had been “appointed” by the so-called “Chair” as food committee grunts for said fundraiser…I could see where that one was headed from the get-go.
I don’t do “feminized reproductive labor”–i.e., food, housekeeping, or clerical shit in any group or org.–only when men perform equally (my two ex-husbands would attest to that factoid).
I’m no 1950s doormat.
It was the day before St. Patty’s Day; and Maine had a honkin’ Nor’Easter throughout the entire weekend (winter storm advisory alerts abounded).
That’s the only reason I was able to see who was bringing what on said email Ccs, re: food (90 tickets had been sold in advance).
Some men on the committee sucker their wives into cooking (then take credit for it–typical).
To add insult to injury, this Chair (and a few of his sidekicks who hit the reply to all button) didn’t want to cancel the event….it got worse as time went on (he had no insight, re: placing others’ lives @danger on the road, etc.).
Only later in the evening when the Vice-Chair offered that no life was worth losing (esp. that of the band, who was volunteering, Pro Bono–and needed to commute 100 mi. to the event!) for a fundraiser did the Chair cancel the event–this is covert misogyny, folks–and women enable by remaining silent, too.
Of import: only the validation of the Vice-Chair mattered…this is a perfect example of covert misogyny, folks–we don’t make this shit up!
No fool was out on the road–and he had no consideration for folks who needed to hire/cancel childcare in advance, either…totally dumb & self-aggrandizing.
My eyes nearly bulged out of my sockets–we didn’t have enough, or the right type of food for 10 people, even (tickets were $10.00-$40.00–sliding scale basis).
I was the only one on the list who had volunteered to bring an entree, BTW.
The so-called ‘event’ has been re-scheduled; and no, I’m not attending, contributing $$, or cooking. Nada.
I have chips & dip (and 4 beers in the fridge) here @home, thanks.
This is the type of thing which occurs all of the time @the local & county Dem committee level; and I also indicated on my Cc that it’s the reason why more women aren’t involved in the [un]Democratic party (which has never been feminist-friendly, BTW).
Ask Fannie Lou Hamer fmi.
There are literally millions of recipes online; and no–I’ll never apologize for replying to all on the email list–he deserved it–long overdue.
We feminists do have our limits…that was mine.
I-Mess & Markos have also reached their limitations, too–enough is enough.
it’s never the role or responsibility of any oppressed subgroup to “teach” or educate the oppressor.
Markos can self-educate…after all, he’s a “Big Boy” in the [un]progressive blogosphere.
He ‘owns’ it.
One point made during the Imus incident was that “respectable” people and advertisers had been enabling his behavior for years by associating themselves with his show.
Are “respectable” people enabling Markos’ misogyny in the same?
For my part I cringe whenever the words orange or dkos appear in the pond. Water pollution in my opinion.
Excellent question.
From the little bit of reading I did yesterday on that site regarding this same issue, there are enablers, and aggressively so.
well, enabling respectability for kos is a cost… more and more it simply reflects on their own respectability.
I don’t count those that speak up, but those that twist in whatever knot it takes to interpret him positively.
if now that Markos is the parent of a daughter, if his attitude might slowly change.
Back in my working days, I ran into men who railed against Title IX and women’s sports in general — until their daughters started growing up and wanted to play basketball and soccer…then Title IX was the greatest thing in the world.
It’s amazing how attitudes change when it affects you or your family. Give him a few years and he might feel a lot different about the issues that matter to “the sanctimonious women’s studies set.”
As for YouKnowWhere, I’m still over there quite a bit, and I’m going to the big confab in Chicago — but it’s not for Markos. Rather, it’s for a bunch of other people I’ve formed a respect for and interest in — I want to hear what they have to say. And I want to learn, and to teach, and figure out what the heck I’m going to do next year to bring sanity back to this country. The results of the Imus affair gives me hope that just maybe it’s not too late to do that…
That was my thought… When his daughter comes to him in tears someday, or is afraid to go somewhere or do something she used to enjoy because of some threatening email or other electronic message… or a note slipped under the windshieldwiper of her car…. or refuses to answer the phone because of someone who’s calling and threatening her…. will he then shrug it off as just a prank?
Until it happpens to you, or to someone you care about, you have no idea how much it matters. Until you feel or see that fear, and realize how terrifying it is. Until it sinks in how vulnerable such a threat makes a woman feel… and how the attitude of our society as a whole to such threats can either encourage or inhibit the assholes who make them…
NO ONE should ever have to deal with that kind of crap. And not standing up for each other only sends the message that it’s okay to continue… and encourages others who may have thought about it but hadn’t acted yet on it to get in on the fun. It’s exactly the mentality that people like Imus and Limbaugh and Coulter encourage… not restraint, not civility, not courtesy, but threats, diatribes, hate speech, that then encourages some people to escalate into petty vandalism, that can then escalate into assault and even murder. And how is the recipient to know which kind of person is threatening her, or how publically posted threats might encourage those even less inhibited to act?
Maybe a code of ethics isn’t the way to solve the problem, but at least it starts a discussion. Denying the problem is real, or assuming because you don’t take it seriously that no one else should, isn’t the answer here. If you can’t accept the fact that other people feel differently about some issues, and these are other progressives/liberals/democrats or what-have-you… how the hell do you expect to ever convince or persuade those who have been voting on the other side all these years that your candidates are going to act in their best interests?
Dunno. Being the husband of a woman should be having that effect, but it doesn’t seem to be having that effect.
that a woman is adult enough to take care of herself — and his wife seems like a very strong woman. But there’s always that protective instinct when it comes to one’s offspring.
Doesn’t necessarily have to be your offspring either — my brother (6 years my senior) stepped in and became a surrogate father of sorts after my dad died in 1970 (my brother was 17, I was 11). He was the one I went to when I was the victim of indecent exposure (a man in a car was masturbating himself in full view of me when I was walking home from school), and he was there when the police came and took my statement (they even sent out the sketch artist — that was a weird experience). Sure, he still gave me a rough time as brothers are wont to do with kid sisters, but he was still there for me when I needed him…
Guess the point is that there’s a difference between how an adult male feels about adult females, and how he feels about younger females, especially offspring. Might be interesting to watch over time, if we’re still around…
I think you’re on to something Cali. It didn’t take long for my daughter’s father to become more sensitized and actively opposed to sexism and anti-semitism once he had a Jewish daughter.
In Kos’s case I wouldn’t hold my breath but I think eventually he will see gender issues very differently, now that he has a daughter.
Problem is that Markos is only blogging just enough to make a couple posts every once in a while — he won’t see this, or have time to do the research you suggest.
He made a serious error in judgment by posting that in the first place without knowing whereof he spoke, but at this point, it’s going to be hard to get him to realize he made that error.
Not only should Markos apologize; he should condemn such behaviour. I have received threatening letters, and I cannot explain how horrifying the experience of thinking someone is watching you is. We lead by example, and communities tend to protect their inhabitants. And yes, there is a difference between callousness and libertarianism.
And even worse are all those cyberstalkers who document your every movement in the blogosphere. Booman calls them the paparazzi, while I call them voyeurs.
Kos is just one part of the problem. There are other bloggers who then think they have a right to reconstruct your words without your permission and then attribute them to you.
I should also say that Jessical Valenti at Feministing is the last person I would consult when it comes to feminism, unless, of course, one is more interested in vacuous, high school rage than actual feminist thought. She in my opinion is the epitome of the lazy, ineffective, overfacilitated and underinformed blogger. Why does she receive so much attention when there are so many other feminists who truly have a command over that movement’s history and contemporary relevance? Is this yet another symptom of our society’s attempt to tame the movement? I believe it is.
Thank you Steven. Nothing Markos says surprises me anymore, but it is important that people continue to speak truth to power.
can.
Could you please delete this comment and repost it with a smaller image? It is affecting how the this page is viewed on my pc’s screen (cooment threrad now bleeds into the right hand margin of the page), and it may have the same effect on others.
Thanks,
Steven D
I rated this comment with a zero in order to delete the comment. mainefem, please repost, but after the quotes, please type width=400. It will appear as follows:
img src=”http:// ……………………………… ” width=400
Thanks for standing up on this issue and calling for MM to stand up, recognize where he’s wrong and make an apology.
The kicker is that her blog isn’t about politics. She’s a smart women with an awesome take on design, communication and computing issues.
A perspective too often ignored in our male dominated decision-making processes.
Great post Steven D.
core faculty lineup is impressive (they’ve had a WST program since 1969, which is remarkable).
How many high schools in this country teach (required) women’s history within the social studies curricula?
(She says facetiously, as it’ll never happen with NCLB “teach-to-the-test” while touting rote learning of upper SES white male supremists fighting wars shit mandates).
I’ve studied the works of Deborah Gray White, Charlotte Bunch, & a few others noted–all of whom are heavyweights in the WST occupational sector.
[…]
“Q: How did people think about race in this period?
A: One of the things that they [white workers] have to worry about, particularly white men, is whether or not, as wage slaves, they will fall into slavery themselves….. White workers do fear, very much so, that they will lose their freedom. And in fact, it is that fear of loss of freedom that forces them to differentiate themselves from the slave. And in differentiating themselves from the slave, they must differentiate themselves from the black man, from the black person. They have to gain an identity as a white worker, one that is very different from what it means to be a black worker in American society in the antebellum South.”
[….]
I’m guessin’ they’ve taught students who the hell Venus Hottentot is:
I-Mess bullied the wrroooooooooong group of women…from the wroooooooooong college! I love this shit.
WST is interdisciplinary in nature–it crosses the boundaries of various marginalized groups, natch.
I-Mess & Kos’s ongoing trivializing, minimizing, & subjugative smackdowns make feminists recoil in horror–and yes, the ‘silence’ from men in the blogosphere (who claim to be ‘progressive’) is deafening.
This I-Mess amplified what women in the blogoshere have attempted to address for years–it’s akin to a nasty pustule, which has been weeping for years–and it’s finally been lanced (i.e., firing of I-Mess, & holding Kos accountable).
While we’re on a roll, we aren’t about to STFU if we don’t like it.
Hell, no–scream all the louder…Kos is making hundreds of thousands of dollars per yr. on said vitriol (file that under the “who benefits?” meme).
His ‘age’ (36, or so) and the birth of a new daughter are no excuse…nada.
His wife performed (literally) all of the labor; and she raised their first child while he was engaged in workaholism (making a buck off the backs of women)–nobody needs to be a rocket scientist to discern that.
I read his thread after their daughter’s birth; and did congratulate him on choosing to stay@home (WTF, he can afford to do so)–the money he made was raped off the backs of women, etc.!
I’ll be damned if I’ll “congratulate” someone for doing what he should be doing (raising his own children).
No trophies or pats on the back from me…nada.
Duh. Wake the fuck up, folks.
Too many hits to the front page of Kos only earn him more moula…somehow, that’s got to stop (which was exactly the message that never got through during the pie war refugee saga).
No, it won’t “go away,” simply because anyone wishes that it would!
(There’s nothing wrong w/my memory recall; and most refugees to BT commented that they were a tad older than Markos–we do remember, folks).
Furthermore, I’m sure that the Rutgers b-ball players will remember this raping of what should have been a celebratory time in their lives throughout their lifespans (they were part of/made history).
…and insofar as I’m concerned, I hope that Rutgers’ administration excuses them from finals; and they all are awared automatic Dean’s List status.
They were “doing feminism” @the experiential level (which is significantly more valuable, vs. writing yet another fucking useless theory paper/taking a written exam).
It’s also about male privlege & awareness (those who “profit” do have a responsiblity to ‘get it’).
Of course we feminists “get” the intersections of race, sex, and class–GLBTQ issues, also (duh); which is exactly why it’s a threat to status quo in the “big boy” (white) upper SES blogosphere.
Those who don’t “have the power” will most certainly will find a means by which to access it…not gonna be pretty, folks.
We work ten times harder (as do African Americans), in order to ‘prove’ that we are “scholarly.”
Our reading & writing workloads are triple that of other majors/minors.
I have no idea whether any of the b-ball players from Rutgers are enrolled in the undergrad WST program @Rutgers; but I would assume that it’s one reason they’ve received excellent “got ‘yer back” support and mentoring.
Women (and young girls) who particpate in athletic programs tend to excel in other life areas.
I wish the Rutgers b-ball team all of the best which life can give them…and hope that they force I-Mess to EARN his way back…part of ‘forgiving’ is that the onus of redemption falls upon the abuser (never the victim).
…all of which occurs on a long-term basis (a “I’m sorry” isn’t enough…being fired twice isn’t enough).
How I-Mess conducts his behavior–couple w/his speech, body language, tone of voice/modulation/inflection/pitch, and in print will determine whether or not women of this country (of all colors) ever forgive him (as well as the complicit assholes who enabled him for over 30 yrs.).
What we said this week: enough is fucking enough, already.