Here it is: LINK
I don’t disagree with anything that Lindsey wrote. I disagreed with using a bloggers threats as an excuse to foist upon us all a “Blogger Code of Conduct”.
That’s what I was saying. 1) There are assholes that will 2) email stupid shit to any public figure (which includes bloggers, but 3) that won’t be stopped by any blogger code of conduct.
You see, stupid asshole psycho threatening emailers don’t care about codes of conduct. That’s all.
That’s not an excerpt. That’s his response, in total. A little weak for my taste.
SECOND Update [2007-4-15 16:20:2 by Steven D]: Terrance at the Republic of T (and a front pager here too) has a very good take on the non-apology apology by Kos. Lots of well made points to ponder.
Update [2007-4-15 13:40:28 by Steven D]: Sadly, the only response to the emails I sent out regarding my post last night has been negative. So I don’t think we can expect much, if anything from anyone with a high traffic liberal/progressive blog (though I still hope to be proven wrong on that score). And no, I will not disclose who responded. That information isn’t important or relevant. Just color me disappointed, for now.
well, except he doesn’t respond to the kathy sierra controversy at all.
he doesn’t address any salient points proffered by anybody.
at first i thought i’d list a list of everyone who challenged his misogynistic view, but there are more comprehensive lists, including marybeth’s at wampum, and i think floating somewhere around here on booman.
the guy talks to the side of everyone’s concerns about his view. he doesn’t deal with any of it.
which, in itself, seems dismissive of women and their issues.
he’s a jerk.
de-link him from your blogroll, everybody.
Skippy, he refuses to get it.
He refuses to apologize. It’s his right to act like somebody else we know who can’t recall any mistakes he made. It’s our job to see how we should respond to it.
but i don’t ever go to dkos any more, not since blogroll amnesty day.
and i love pair o dimes. see you there!
Apologizing to Kathy Sierra personally for what I think are d**khead statements suffices in this case, not some BS about a blogger’s code of ethics being imposed from–or shat down from–above.
Nothing at all was said or even suggested about such a thing occurring. Methinks he’s pissed off about Imus’ downfall as well, and thought he would fling a few cow paddies himself in his neck of the woods.
Which have landed haphazardly on the rest of Leftblogostan. And made the majority of progressive women bloggers righteously ticked.
I think the little dweeb figures he doesn’t need progressives, women or anyone else pretty soon. It’s a Kos World. Between now and 2010, I’m going to see him as part of the MSM and just as tarnished and out of touch.
Eventually, crunch time always comes to serial offenders…
It is not about a code of conduct. The problem is that he is dismissive of a death threat. He can tap dance all he wants, but he still has to address that issue.
The threats were posted on her blog. Photoshopped pictures of Kathy Sierra in a noose. Extremely graphic, sick descriptions of how some of these guys wanted to rape, mutilate, and torture her.
Kos’ non-apology apology, non-explanation explanation, is more insulting than his original post.
I didn’t think it would be possible for him to become more offensive, but hey, Kos has a way of surprising me in that regard.
He just doesn’t get it and he never will.
Steven D, as I’ve already written, any apology by Kos (and this is NOT an apology by any definition of the word) would be self-serving public relations, not heartfelt. There’s too much damning evidence that not only Kos himself but the atmosphere of his blog is misogynistic.
Of course psychos don’t care about a “code of conduct”, aka “the law”. Nobody’s arguing about that, are they? What they are arguing about is that Kos:
Do we need to send Kos a copy of “Death Threats for Dummies” so that he’ll understand that crimes have been committed? It’s a crime to make a terroristic threat in person or online, and that’s what has been done here.
One of Kathy Sierra’s stalkers posted her home address and her Social Security number online. That’s a far cry from an email from some random refugee from the loony bin.
Kos. Just. Does not. GET IT.
And he never will.
Thank you, Karen Wehrstein.
To Be Blunt, this is very Bushesque.
He does not apologize, or admit mistakes, and writes a profanity laced short paragraph after 3 days that doesn’t appear to be well thought out.
It’s crap. There is no acknowledgement of anything other than, I have been taking a lot of hits so I better say something, but I refuse to apologize, so let me just put something out.
Not good enough.
Read the comments attached to the Non-Apology and you’ll see most of the “Kossacks” falling all over themselves to agree with Kos about the Blogger Code of Conduct being completely ineffective (which it would be) and IGNORING THE REAL ISSUE.
Which is EXACTLY what he wants them to do.
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.
The REAL issue is that Kos had his facts wrong about the nature and manner of the threats made to Kathy Sierra, about the type of blogging she does (non-controversial and definitely apolitical), and was belittling and dismissive (and practically called her a liar, saying that he doubted she could produce these “death threats” if challenged to do so!).
These comments are typical Kool Aid drinking by the
Kossackssycophants:There’s one reason Kos doesn’t have to change himself or his site: he’s surrounded by sycophants (like a certain President) who tell him that his shit tastes like ice cream.
Here’s the BIG reason Kos doesn’t have to change himself or his site: because excellent writers will protest Kos’ misogyny and the misogynistic, anti-progressive atmosphere that now pervades DailyKos, but at the end of the day, they’re going to give their wonderful writing for free to Mr. Markos Moulitsas so he can profit from their efforts.
As long as Kos is making money and getting good writers to contribute content for free, why should he change one damn thing? From Kos’ point of view, everything is A-OK and this latest storm of controversy will soon blow by, leaving him untouched.
Know what? He’s right, because a lot of people in the blogosphere have made their deals with the Devil, i.e.:
However, I am aware of the problem posed by refusing to post on DailyKos: If you don’t post there, how can your criticisms and concerns reach the DKos readership?
It can’t. But that doesn’t excuse posting original diaries (much of it well-researched, well-written material, unlike Kos’ typically ill-informed rants) that further the profitability of Mr. Moulitsas’ site.
If there’s a rationale for continuing to post diaries on DailyKos, I’m willing to be persuaded. But it will take some real convincing….
Going through that thread, it can be seen that:
a) the balance of the comments still critique Kos for his non-apology
and
b) those comments that explicitly call him on it are getting the highest ratings.
Also, the rating system is confusing. Some people rate because they agree, some people rate because the comment is well-stated/argued/though provoking. Personally I do both, although no matter how much I agree with someone’s point, I won’t recommend their comment if it is rudely worded etc.
There are comments on that thread that I at least somewhat disagree with, but I’ve recommended them because they are well-spoken. So I for one take offense at you listing who has recommended what as some sort of counter system for who agrees with who – that’s black and white, and inaccurate.
Whether good writers should remove themselves from Kos is another question, and one I’m quite happy to admit to having mixed views on, primarily because DailyKos is a community, and abandoning a community based on one or even a group of individuals is at best a difficult decision for me. Also, as I’ve stated elsewhere on this topic, I actually think the Sierra controversey on Kos is doing that community a lot of good, and made me more hopeful for it than I have been for a long time.
I’ve got a class to go to tonight, and then work all week. But I’ll bet there are people out there with the temperament and writing skills to write to some of the people who use Daily Kos as their main venue for “netroots outreach” and express some of the concerns that have been discussed over the past few days.
Kerry does so on a regular basis, especially with his book coming out
http://blog.johnkerry.com
I also posted the link to the Wikipedia article about Daily Kos, which lists some of the prominent public figures who have posted there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daily_Kos
I would never tell them that they should not post diaries there (or have their staffs do so), but I do think it would be appropriate to explain the reason some are feeling less comfortable at Daily Kos, and ask that these individuals expand their outreach.
The problem is finding contact information. Last time Rocky Anderson posted the text of a speech there, I couldn’t find it posted somewhere else such that I could link to it without providing traffic/links to Kos. So I went to his web site and send him an e-mail through the contact page, asking if I could have permission to post the speech on my own blog–or if it was published somewhere else that I could link to.
I got an automated response, but never actually heard back.
I do think this is something to pursue, especially as 2008 approaches. It’s not really “outreach” if it only takes place on a site that is so hostile/dismissive toward groups that make up the base of the Democratic party.
And, —hello— women are not a “special interest group”–we’re more than 50% of the population, dammit!
…that you would not tell people to refrain from posting diaries on DailyKos?
Here’s how it works:
See my point?
Totally agree. Let’s all us B-Z league bloggers try linking to each other more to make up the difference and just cut out supporting Kos if he is going to act this way.
It’s the market place. He wants to dismiss women’s issues, we can choose to dismiss him. It’s fair enough. I am not name calling. I just have a different philosophy than his. Period.
I think the code of conduct is based on the “honor system”, you see a prick call him/her a prick. Death Threats on your blog is beyond anything any code of conduct will cure…I recommend that the senders IP address be published.
Orange has its own code-of-conduct, being “banned” end-of-story. But ever since he put the “Latino Politico” on his “daily” blog-roll I do stop by.
Where in Kos’ original post did he treat Kathy Sierra’s death threats as less than serious?
The closest thing I found was this line:
But he used the phrase “most of the time”, so clearly, he believes there are some times when the death threats are legitimate. So who’s to say what he thinks of individual cases, much less Kathy Sierra’s? Because he hasn’t said anything, and he isn’t under any obligation to do so.
This really seems like a bunch of manufactured outrage to me.
Kathy Sierra has stopped blogging and the matter is under police investigation.
Kos didn’t even get the basic facts of the case correct. Kos said that Kathy Sierra was a “crying blogger” and doubted the existence of the threats–but Sierra received graphic threats, including photos, and her home address and Social Security number was posted online.
Kos also claimed the threats were emailed, but they were posted online.
Here’s what Kathy Sierra wrote:
Kos also wrote that even if the death threats were real, Kathy Sierra should just suck it up–implying that if she can’t take the abuse, then she should stop blogging.
What’s happened is that Kos has dismissed another person’s pain and genuine fear, and now neither he nor his enablers are willing to admit the mistake. But that’s part of a long-standing behaviour pattern with Kos, and it’s his pattern of misogyny, of which this latest incident is only a part, that has helped stir this outrage in the blogosphere.
Where did he say any of that about Kathy Sierra? Like I said in my original post, he clearly said “most of the time” for a reason.
That’s your boy Kos.
Kos is dismissive: “If they can’t handle a little heat in their email inbox…they should try another line of work.”
These were publicized threats of rape, torture, and murder, NOT emails.
KOS IGNORED THE BASIC FACTS OF KATHY SIERRA’S CASE.
Here’s the capper: “…they should try another line of work.”
Translation: If Ms. Sierra can’t handle graphic threats against her person, including the posting of her home address online, then she needs to quit blogging.
I wonder how Kos would feel if somebody threatened his wife and posted HIS home address online? I hope nobody EVER does that, because it’s a terrible thing to do to ANYBODY.
Kos does NOT “get it”. And, dwbh, neither do you.
This is my final response to you. Life’s too short to argue with people who are dishonest in their arguments; you either don’t comprehend Kos’ meaning or do and are willfully misrepresenting it. In either case, it’s futile to attempt to convince you, so I shall not waste the effort.
Emphasis mine.
“…ALWAYS FAIL TO PRODUCE SAID ‘DEATH THREATS'” is what Kos wrote.
He wrote that AFTER Kathy Sierra had reported the death threats to the police, who are investigating as I write these words.
Kos clearly wrote “ALWAYS FAIL TO PRODUCE” and put “death threats” in quotation marks for a reason.
That reason, of course, was to demean and belittle Kathy Sierra’s claim to be genuinely afraid for her life and for her safety.
that always means always. Sierra was the only blogger he attacked by name, and the FBI bloody well found death threats.
But death threats against female bloggers are extremely frequent. Kos is a full time blogger; he should know this. The fact that Kos got one dorky death threat means nothing, just like the contents of your or my email box mean nothing directly. So the idea that they “always” fail to produce “death threats” is utter crap. Lindsay Beyerstein routinely turns death threats over to the FBI and the servers of the stalker. Forget what Marcotte and McEwen put up with after Donohue.
It’s kind of like sexual harassment. I, a straight male, have very rarely been hit on by gay men, in each time when I was in a predominantly gay neighborhood. The approaches were probably over-the-line, but not a big deal. I walked away, big yawn. What I did not do was drive from Baltimore’s gay neighborhood to a rape crisis center 3 zip codes away and tell the people there that their claims of rape don’t even exist and that rape victims “always” failed to produce evidence of rape, because some awkward gay man in Mount Vernon made an awkward come-on to a breeder like me.
But more than that, Kos’ abject refusal in his further statement to clarify how he never meant to slap any blogger, political or not, crying or not, woman or not, and how he takes online predation seriously means that he DID mean to slap her and every other crying blogger (wherever they may be), DID mean to alienate the feminist element of the community he is trying to build for fun and profit and DID intend to play for the men’s locker room, circa age 15 in maturity. He told us all to get lost. Done.
He has stated as much over and over again in 2004, 2005, THE PIE WARS etc.
Dkos on wommen’issues = Single issue voters
Single Issue Voters = not tolerated in kosLand
Pie objectors = Some women’s study group types
Solution (front paged) = Don’t let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.
Pie war exodus was in the neighborood of 1200 Strong, talented and contributing women’s voices.
It is a deeply embedded issue with kos. Likelyhood of change? Zero
Well he lost me today, not that I was a major contributor of unique high-quality content, hardly. But I think there may a massive defection, though I’m perhaps too close to it to judge.
There is, of course, an alternate explanation than the one offered here:
He may have used the phrase “most of the time” as a get out of jail card, since any individual case can easily be in the “part of the time” part of it. “Most of the time” could be 2/3 of the time, it could be 9/10 of the time, it could be 99/100 of the time … but that 1/3, 1/10, or 1/100 time would still represent a serious problem.
A bona fide indication that some times death threats require serious attention would be:
The problem with the “most times” as a get out of jail card is that a 1 in 20 chance that a death threat is serious applying to 1 in a 1,000 death threats … is still a serious risk if that death threat is among one of the ones that you have received. Downplaying that risk simply to win an online argument is evidence of seriously misplaced priorities.
I will be interested to see what the Dou report has to say about all this.
Astonishing. Markos’ response is just totally inadequate.
Reminds me of people I have known who would make an apology, but before they got to the end, would repeat the original insult and add another on top. Really, it is that bad.
His comment thread is a good example of what is wrong with D.kos.
As has been said, Markos does not WANT to get it. He does not care, and does not want to care.
And yes, he has joined the MSM. Any response must acknowledge that basic fact.
If you HAVE to post there, make sure you post on other, better blogs FIRST. If you have to give him material, don’t give him first run material.
That is how I have always done it. I usually post first on my own Blog, then here, My left Nutmeg or ePluribus Media if I think it is worth cross-posting at all.
I very rarely ever bothered to cross-post it over at dKos in the past, and never now. Too many really good diaries get ignored there anyways.
I wouldn’t mind the “herding cats” aspect if it were herding LIBERAL cats. A political breed that is on the verge of extinction there.
his basic problem is that he is exceptionally lazy, and will comment on an issue without researching it. I think this is the reason he allowed all the bullies to takeover as well.
If so, why refuse to apologize? A less charitable but more plausible explanation is that he is callous scum.
he has that problem too. Anyway, his page views are in decline, and I don’t personally look at his blog that much anymore. Maybe he is just an old burnout. Maybe it is the inevitable result of taking donor money, then letting donors dictate content, and who can post there, which is what happened at du.
You are actually much more emblematic of the problems at kos than sierra. I think you were probably taken out by dhinmi and plutonium page because you are talented advocate for Palestinian rights. That is a big elephant in the room when talking about goings on a kos, and some of the snottiers more abusive members.
I’m not surprised by the responses you received. Circling the wagons.
It’s the links/pageviews/advertising dollars, stupid.
Take down DailyKos and you take down a huge source of referrals for the other A-List bloggers.
Can’t have that.
Never mind that DailyKos is a force for Republican lite politics inserted into the Democratic Party under the guise of “big tentism”; never mind that DailyKos is a place where progressives are belittled and demeaned before being banned or told to leave (and don’t let the door hit you on the ass on the way out).
DailyKos is good for the business of the other A-List blogs.
Hey, it’s America. Nothing gets in the way of making a buck. Surely not a silly little thing like principles.
Markos, insensitive and callous?!! (gasp!!!) Call Fox!!!