I have been astonished, amazed, and saddened to see how many activists on electronic voting that I used to respect and believe have lost all credibility with me.
It’s not that they oppose Rush Holt’s bill HR 811. It’s WHY they oppose it. They oppose it based on a lot of past experience and high-flying rhetoric. But what they have also shown, and I mean this in all seriousness, is that they are surprisingly unfamiliar with the explicit language in the bill!
For the last few weeks I’ve been in email discussions with Brad of Brad Blog, Bev Harris, Nancy Tobi, Paul Lehto, Mark Crispin Miller, and others.
Here’s what I’ve come to understand, and bear in mind, I am dramatically oversimplifying their comments. But that said, I do not feel I am misrepresenting them.
- They don’t like idea of federal ANYTHING. The thought that someone in DC could reach out and have something to do with the votes in their state worries them.
- They want HCPB, i.e., Hand-counted Paper Ballots, or nothing. The fact that there is virtually NO support for that in the halls of congress doesn’t deter them.
- They think DREs are the problem and that removing them, even while leaving optical scanning systems in place, would solve something.
- They want perfect legislation (meaning, perfectly acceptable to them) or no legislation. And because Holt’s bill is #1 (federal legislation), does not provide soley for #2 (HCPB), and allows DREs to be used, they think this is reason enough to oppose the legislation.
But here’s the real shocking thing I’ve discovered. They don’t back up their argument with actual language from the bill! I really am beginning to believe some — perhaps many — of them have not even read the bill in its current form!
Case in point:
In several exchanges, Brad of BradBlog keeps saying that DREs can never produce a record of the vote that the voter can verify. BY DEFINITION, he says, a DRE cannot do that.
Well then, BY BRAD’S definition, those machines would not be allowed under Holt’s legislation. HR 811 states explicitly that ALL machines MUST produce a durable, verifiable ballot, and that the piece of paper, not the electronic tally, decides the recount and audit. For Brad to continue to say that Holt allows DREs that don’t produce paper ballots is simply, legally, not true.
[UPDATE: Brad says that he has never said this, exactly. I’ll take him at his word on this exact phrasing. But he did, provably, say this, in an email I and many others and many lists received from him, re DREs:
“If you don’t mind a voting system where there is no way to verify the voters intent, either before or after the vote is counted, because you think it’s an improvement over what we have, then that’s fine and up to you.”
That goes to the heart of my objection. Because Holt’s bill does, specifically, provide that ALL machines used in federal elections MUST produce a durable paper record that the voter can verify, and which must be used in any audit or recount. So while my wording is incorrect, the point I’m making is the same. Brad has misrepresented, to the detriment of people’s understanding, what, exactly, is in Holt’s bill.]
And DREs are so not the problem, in isolation. People seem to think a scanned ballot is going to be more accurate than one cast on a DRE. I have to tell you, that’s just nutty. Because the software in a scanner isn’t passive. It’s actively interpreting your votes on that page you feed in. And it can interpret them just as rightly or wrongly as a DRE.
People get why DREs are bad. But they think scanners are better because they marked it up first. But why do you believe what you marked is what the computer program chose to record? It’s really no different than a DRE in that regard.
I have a long list of problems that have occured on optical scan machines if anyone’s interested. See the appendix in Electonic Voting: America’s Vote at Risk and note how many problems happened on optical scanning systems.
I’m no fan of electronic voting. But I’m also a realist. I think electronic voting is here to stay until we can prove beyond the majority of America’s doubt that they don’t work. And what better way to prove that then with the audits of from 3% to 10% of the precincts in each state, depending on the closeness of the victory? That’s what Holt’s bill proposes.
I got a phone call the other day from a major national organization, asking me about something in the bill. They wanted a quick answer, but I said wait, I need to actually go read the text so I don’t misrepresent.
I researched. I read. I called them back in under five minutes with a factual answer. It put their specific concerns raised dramatically to bed. So I was really glad they asked.
But I was really sad they hadn’t read the bill themselves, and much worse, that they might have been satisfied with an answer off the top of my head. Don’t get me wrong. I’m thrilled to be found credible. But I’m scared if anyone finds anyone THAT credible. None of us should believe anyone else ALL the time. We must learn to double check alleged facts.
Why don’t people read the bill? Is it that it’s so dry and boring? Or is it that people don’t think themselves capable of reading legislation and having a valid opinion on it? I fear it’s the latter, and that’s a tragedy.
I promise, an opinion that’s at least based on the language of the bill is a lot more valid than an opinion from an activist who hasn’t even read the latest text!
HR 811, Holt’s bill, has been through a number of changes. I’ve read several versions now. I don’t know if I’ve read them all, but I’ve definitely read the latest one. And I have to say, this is a REALLY strong, good bill. It lays out the baseline, the minimum standard. It does not limit states from having even higher standards. It does not impose a federal stranglehold on elections, as some have painted it. And the only code that’s allowed to remain secret is commercial off-the-shelf software, something Bev Harris at Black Box Voting has been lobbying for so the vendors wouldn’t fight the bill harder. Yes, there is a non-disclosure agreeement (NDA) those who would examine the code have to sign. But that’s standard business practice, and there’s explicit language in Holt’s bill saying errors and fraud are not protected by the NDA. So you can’t talk about what works and how they did it. But you’re free as hell to talk about anything you saw that didn’t work as expected.
The fact that progressive activists who share the same goal as myself – clean and fair elections – can be so ignorant of the very item they are debating is incredibly frustrating and disheartening. It’s a symbol, in a nutshell, of what’s wrong with our country. Facts have fallen by the wayside, and opinion triumphs — whether informed, or not!
I encourage you all to at least read the first few pages – up to page five, of Holt’s bill. The first page is almost all names and will go fast. The next few pages deal with the specific definition and requirement for a paper record that will be available for an audit and/or recount. Just read that. Surprise yourself. It’s not so boring you could puke. And it’s a primary record – not some second-hand piece of information.
After you get to page five, skip over to page 44 and just read through the next page about the audit procedure. The language is specific and clear. This is so much more than any state has on its books now. This alone is reason to pass it. And after reading the bill through, there is truly nothing in there that does damage. But don’t take my word for it. Read it. See for yourself.
It’s amazing how people can be taught not to trust what they see in front of them. That’s what some of the activists want you to do. They want you to think you’re not capable of making the right decision. That you don’t have all the facts.
I believe anyone on this blog is a heck of a lot smarter than that. You will know the truth when you see it. So I’m begging you to look.
And the next time some anti-Holt activist starts spewing a line about this or that, ask them to quote THE SPECIFIC BILL LANGUAGE so you can read it for yourself. Surprise surprise, whenever I have tried that, they just refuse. BECAUSE THEY CAN’T. THEY DON’T KNOW THE LANGUAGE OR WHERE TO FIND IT. Or it doesn’t exist, and they can’t admit that. Don’t believe anything you can’t verify.
I’ve posted a piece on my own blog re what’s good in the bill and why you should care, and what you should do about it. I provide a link to the full bill text, and have pulled out a few salient quotes so you can see what’s there for yourself.
Stop listening to activists who say trust me, I know better. I’m here to tell you that a lot of them DON’T. You know better, when you inform yourself directly.
Thanks for letting me rant. This lack of respect for factual accuracy is really annoying, and far too pervasive in society today. We should do better. People follow truthtellers. In order to be leaders, we must learn to be truthtellers, and not opinion flingers. There’s a world of difference between the two. Even a very well-informed opinion is no substitute for a nice cold hard fact.
Thank you, all of you, who have spent time here digging for and presenting facts, not just sharing opinions. That’s what has made this place especially valuable, to me. That’s what will keep me coming back for a very long time to come.
Thank you for taking the time to read the actual bill and setting the record straight.
There were some reasons, at least in our Maryland precincts, why the digial touch-screen machines and more importantly, the computerized copy of the ENTIRE STATE’s voter registration rolls were a big help in making sure voting went smoothly and well. (Okay, it didn’t go so smoothly in some areas for the primary, but that was due to human error, not the machines).
As long as the tallies from the machines can be verified against a printed paper receipt to spot-check and audit the process, and in case a close election is challenged, as DID happen in our Congressional primary, be hand-counted to verify results, then the machines are actually a good thing. My roommate is a judge and it’s a very LONG day for them, from about 5am to 11pm, if counting goes well. Paper ballots would be a much greater strain on judges in populous districts — we’d have to either make the precincts smaller, or find a different way of organizing the judges so they aren’t forced to put in an even longer day than they do already.
The Holt bill sounds like it addresses the most serious concerns with the voting machines themselves — being able to audit and double-check the actual votes cast. If there are sufficient oversight and double-checks built into the system, and paper receipt/ballots are available should recounts be necessary, it is a lot less likely that fraud will occur… at least with regards to the voting machines and vote counting. There are a lot of other election-fraud issues to be addressed, such as suppression and elimination of names from voter rolls, number of machines available, etc. — but that’s a different kind of oversight.
Thanks for all that great information.
I’m sure neither of us is naive enough to think people won’t still try to game the system, and possibly succeed, under Holt’s bill or any. But having audits of the paper records that the voter has the option to truly verify GREATLY mitigates those concerns.
I think people fear what they don’t know more than what they do know. I hope people take time to educate themselves about how elections in their areas are conducted so they can see whether their fears are justified or not. They will be in some cases, and in other cases they might come to feel much better.
Our vote is very much at risk until we have paper records for ALL elections and an audit of those paper records. Even if we had a hand count for the first count, I still wouldn’t trust it without an audit.
Thank you thank you thank you for this succint analysis of this bill.
Front page worthy.
Thank you very much, Alice.
There’s a full court press by the people mentioned herein to convince progressives not to support this bill. It’s hard to understand how they would be so willing to cut off their nose to spite their face, but there you have it.
Purism is great, to a point. But when it’s carried too far, I call it something else: fundamentalism.
Brad emailed me and thinks you’ve badly misrepresented his position.
I’m not getting involved, but he thinks this is yellow journalism and unworthy of being published by me.
Just so you know.
I’m well aware, and I have battled him on his positions quite publicly in front of a lot of activists.
He also asked me in front of the same “who I worked for,” as if I would take money to represent anyone’s opinions but my own.
So please, that’s pretty disingenous, after his personal attacks on me, for him to cry now over my reaction to what’s he’s saying.
Thanks, Booman, for the heads up.
well…specifically he’d like you to correct the part where you say that he thinks DRE’s can’t record a vote. Of course they can record a vote and leave a record. He says that they cannot verify a vote BEFORE it is cast.
He also said a vote is “cast” when it is handed in. I said a vote is only “cast” when it is counted. So there is no functional difference between a DRE and optical scanning system, since both cast your ballot by interpreting, not necessarily recording, your vote.
my friends at Virginia Verified Voting say the same thing about Brad and Mark Crispin Miller.
Since Brad has impuned my integrity on this point, I need to quote something he said directly in the context of DREs and optical scanning systems. Brad argued, logically, that an optical scan ballot is by definition ‘voter verified’ since the voter filled it out. (Which isn’t to say voters don’t make mistakes – they do, and I’ve heard some horror stories in that regard.)
But specifically, Brad said this, which goes to the heart of my objection to his comments:
“If you don’t mind a voting system where there is no way to verify the voters intent, either before or after the vote is counted, because you think it’s an improvement over what we have, then that’s fine and up to you.”
That is what I object to, because under Holt’s bill, the voter DOES have a chance to verify the paper record, and that paper record MUST be examined in the audit or recount. So “after the vote is counted” there is indeed such a way.
Brad says he didn’t give permission for you to post it.
My policy is to delete it.
I understand it was a big list, but it’s still email and he isn’t granting permission to use it.
Besides the obvious hatchet job being performed on Brad Friedman, without any evidence whatsoever to back it up, I’m also calling bull on your entire argument.
It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that true ballots…the kind that people have to fill out, by their very nature will more accurately reflect voter intent…because people must fill them out.
DRE toilet paper records are not filled out by voters. Instead, the paper record is supposed to reflect the voter’s choices.
Both methods can be rigged…a fact even phony voting activists can’t deny these days without looking like phony voting activists.
Rigged optical scan systems can easily be detected by comparing the actual ballots to “the count.”
Rigged DREs could be detected by comparing the toilet paper records to “the count” – however, it has been proven over and over that toilet paper records might not display what the voter actually chose.
Yes, if 100% of the voters were able and willing to review their toilet paper receipts to make sure the receipts were 100% accurate, then the toilet paper receipts could be used to detect a rigged system.
But that is absurd to assume. Some people have bad eyesight, some people can’t see both the DRE screen and the writing on the toilet paper record clearly, some people just stick them in their pockets, some people throw them away, some people will glance at them without going line by line, etc., etc.
Some people might look at them later when it’s too late. Some people might be shocked to learn later that they voted straight Republican according to their toilet paper record, when they thought they voted straight Democratic…and who would believe them later on?
Would the people who discount all of the thousands of reports of DREs switching votes ON-SCREEN believe them?
Of course not.
There are those who say things like “well Holt is better than nothing…it’s a good first step…blah blah blah…”
Are we to believe that our elected representatives, who most likely know little about the subject, will be anxious to go back to the drawing board after finding out that the bill they supported did not do what they thought it did?
Anyone remember the Patriot Act?
Ban DREs! Do not accept anything less.
Lisa-
posting a private email without permission is a bannable offense. If you did not have permission to post this then I will have to delete it and insist that you not do this again.
I know Brad is a public figure, but that is not an excuse to use this forum to breach a trust.
Unless he explicitly said that you could post his emails, I’ll have to delete it.
He demanded I post a response.
And this email was hardly private, as there were about 30 people and several lists on it.
He also never told me to delete this, even after I informed him that I had posted this, verbatim.
If he requests this be deleted, I will of course apologize.
ok.
Thanks for the heads up. I asked Booman to delete it anyway, although to this moment, Brad has not actually asked for it to be gone. He is sending me messages in large bold red type, however, so out of concern for his health, I’ve asked that email to be removed.
I, too, am dismayed at the misrepresentation, but mostly from Holt’s office, PFAW, and all those who say something is better than nothing. The election boards around the country don’t want to count the votes or get rid of their DREs, sold as accurate and effortless.
Trails are never counted, really a placebo, voters don’t check them, or find errors. Voters can never verify that the trail is the same as the legal, secret, electronic impulse. Made more secret by changing open source to non-disclosure. A boon to Microsoft, and for the first time makes legal by legislative body secret vote counting.
We will put $1 billion into the vendors hands, while nothing sold or in place passes the 2005 guidelines, effective 1-1-08.
I find much of the bill has been overly-hyped, a wish list, and lacking legal imperative. The devil is in the details.
Consider and contact Congress:
http://www.wheresthepaper.org/HR811markupCmt.htm
Responses to concerns about HR 811:
http://electionarchive.org/ucvInfo/US/FactsAboutHR811.pdf