According to Susan Estrich, yet another of the proven losers who seems to think they run the Democratic Party today, we sure can’t. Watch her spank Obama:
The two people with the most to lose in the [Democratic Presidential] debate were … Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama. … Hillary made no mistakes. Obama did.
Asked about America’s best friends in the world, Obama waxed on about NATO and our European allies before looking east to Japan. I’m not a foreign policy expert, but I’ve been around debates for decades and it was clear that Obama didn’t get that this was the Israel question.
He didn’t get that people like me, voters and donors, were waiting to hear the word “Israel” in a way that Japanese Americans were not. Japan doesn’t live under constant threats; Israel does. Japanese Americans don’t worry about Japan’s survival in the way Jewish Americans worry about Israel. Obama’s answer, in my book, was the biggest mistake of the debate.
http://gorillaintheroom.blogspot.com/2007_04_01_archive.html
Reading this just flat out stunned me. HOW ISRAEL CENTRIC DOES OUR FOREIGN POLICY HAVE TO BE before Americans wake up? Whatever we are, we are not Israel’s Muscle! And why are we listening to what Estrich has to say, Estrich who never won a Presidential election, while ignoring Carter, who DID win a Presidential election?
And why are we continuing to spin our wheels around Israel? Is the reason the seemingly obvious one? That Israel is right next door to where the oil is?
Maybe Obama did know it was the Israel question and he answered it. It that so bad?
If Obama read BMT, he would see that I/P diaries now account for 30-40% of all user postings. Maybe there’s a message here, maybe not.
It’s getting pretty tiresome, isn’t it?
from mostly. But lately I’ve been seeing it as more critical. I’m becoming aware that the Religious Right is, it seems, REALLY keying on this issue, in terms of supporting the hard right in Israel – and that makes it something we ought to be paying attention to and promoting honestly about.
Sure — just please don’t quit DKos in a huff over it…
I’d say more about that, but I’ve been learning a lot about the wank rule.
ONe must try to keep wank where it breaks out. Don’t contribute to its spreading.
Israel is taking us down the drain. Why not talk about it. Have you looked at polls outside of the US? The US has been killing Palestinians for decades, but we pretend not to know this.
Even though you were rather patronizing when last we “spoke”, I’ll tempt fate and make another attempt to address you directly.
Your comment below:
Your comment above:
Which is it? Is it that Americans don’t know because of the great snookering or is it that they know but pretend that they don’t?
As to my remark about I/P postings, it was, once again, an observation, much as my earlier observation noted the goings on at dkos. Surely you remember my earlier comment, later rephrased more elegantly by BooMan, regarding dkos? From such observations, one can draw conclusions, sometimes quite valuable.
I think we are much fooled. But, at the same time, we much fool ourselves. We are sold a bill of goods. But we also tend to believe what we want to believe.
Thank you for your response. However the individual to whom I replied considers all whom he deems not to be in absolute lockstep with his views to be enablers/supporters/members of the so called rightwing zionists. Even when I stated an observation about events over at dkos, he deemed it to be equivalent to the means by which the so called rightwing zionists stifle the I/P debate. Another individual (his sockpuppet?) always seems to show up at the appropriate time to lend support.
Careful readers of these posts will note that I have never actually stated my views on these issues, nor have I in any way acted to obstruct this individual in his efforts.
Epppie gave you a good response, which cannot be topped. Don’t you pretend, as a liberal, that something else is occurring when you remain silent or give a response like the above intended to undermine the messenger because the message is not refutable? Or does your silence have some other source?
Which is it?
If I had my way the Palestinians and Israelis would live side by side in peace, and become a shinning example for the world.
However,
But we also tend to believe what we want to believe.
That goes for everybody doesn’t it?
could be peace in Northern Ireland. Now more than ever there should be intensive negotiation towards peace. The people are sick of the fighting.
epppie I couldn’t agree with you more!
I remember when Northern Ireland looked like a civil war that would never end. Blair had something to do with ending it. That was back when he believed in intense diplomacy and not just war.
Of what silence are we speaking? I post about other issues, mostly environmental and the failure(s) of the relevant federal agencies. Does your failure to post about and/or comment upon such issues constititue silence or an undermining of my message? Does it constitute enabling or acceptance of the agency failures?
Other than what I post here, you don’t know a thing about me or what I support/act upon in real life. Perhaps you should avoid assumptions about alleged silence. But I can see once again that it is your attitude that causes trouble for you, not your message. I’m sure that you will disagree.
silence. And I think that goes for all of us. None of us are perfect.
Tellingly, no response from shergald.
I was reading someone’s blog today, re. Vladimir Putin’s G8 conference.
It was to cry. Can you imagine having a leader, however dark his background (though, is KGB darker than CIA?) who actually seems to not only have a grasp on issues, and an ability to be articulate about them, but ALSO an ability to articulate both sides!!!!! An ability to see his side AND the other side?!!
http://the-vigil.blogspot.com/2007/06/bush-world-according-to-vladimir-putin.html
beyond me. I read something about sock puppetry at Dkos the other day. I don’t know what to make of it.
What I do think is that rw supporters of Israel extremists and militants ARE out to stifle honest discussion of the IP issue. I think it is an attempt to drive a DLC wedge into the progressive movement.
snookered (as I see it) into pushing the rw line hard line re. Israel.
Fear of appearing anti-semitic, guilt over the Holocaust… political opinion is not rational…
people take it to extremes.
If you have become an Israeli, though, you are granted a sort of “free pass” to discuss Palestine honestly. There is more freedom of speech about Palestine in the mass media in Israel itself than there is in the US mass media.
I’ve heard that numerous times, that the Israeli press is nothing like ours in terms of onesided coverage of the issues.
But I’ve never been there.
down the drain. I think it’s the hard right in Israel. But more and more I think the hard right in Israel may be dominated and supported more than we know by the religious right wing in America; if that’s true, then it’s WE who are taking ourselves down the drain, using Israel.
Ironic if nothing else, if true.
I think it’s a good thing that Obama DIDN’T see it as a question about Israel.
Maybe he hasn’t been pickled in Beltway CW yet.
You do recognize that Ms.Estrich’s opinion is likely not representative of most Americans?
Most Americans have been snookered by the most sophisicated propaganda effort ever devised, which coupled with media censorship, have them believing that Israel is a victim of (Palestinian) terrorism and must be saved at all costs. I doubt if most people know that the Palestinians have been living under a brutal military occupation fo 40 years.
I think the situation can be described as a vicious circle on both sides.
the Palestinians are wonderful and haven’t been doing terrible things to Israel, they have. But Israel has been doing terrible things to them to.
A peace and reconciliation movement is needed and from what I read, one is going on, particularly around the wall, where people from both sides are protesting peacefully.
but I think it’s true that our foreign policy tends to be very disproportionately Israel centered.
After 9/11 the US government proceeded to thank various countries for their support. The one country that was not mentioned was Canada. Canadians noticed. BIG TIME. Canadians didn’t feel that they had done anything particularly special in taking in all those planes – some of which could have had suicide bombers on them and having entire towns giving up every available sleeping spot – down to living room couches to stranded travelers – right up until the time that the US failed to thank Canada.
There is a very fine art to diplomacy, and doing it wrong does have consequences. It is not always obvious just what should be said to avoid offense, and it is not always obvious what the consequences of these seemingly minor slips.
On this case, I got to think that Susan Estrich has a point. The US and Israel often act with single foreign policy. In particular, Israel has often in the past done dirty work that the US could not politically afford to do. Israel is the largest recipient of US “foreign aid”. No – I think that it was a test and Obama failed.
There is a whole lot I don’t like about Obama, but I must admit that I am slowly warming up to him.
Israel again!
I feel like I am living in an alternate universe. I need a reality check…is this still America? Did we somehow get annexed by Israel when I wasn’t paying attention? Is the Atlanta IRS address just a drop box for Israel?
There seems to be this notion among some Jews who live in this country, have American citizenship that they are the exception to the oath of alleigence and the truism that no one can serve two masters…they claim Israel as their true nation and put all their efforts toward making sure Israel is protected and enriched at the expense of the US and it’s 98% population who aren’t Jews and don’t care any more about Israel than they do about any other country.
Yea, I know they claim this as a ‘right” because of their “history” as victims.
But I have never seen “victimhood history” work in court as a defense for the actions of a law breaker who takes his personal nightmares out on the genral population. Generally if any credence is given at all to that plea the accused at best is sent to a mental facility instead of prison.
I recommend mental health..er…help for those who think they can have two wives at the same time or both a wife and a mistress without the shit hitting the fan sooner or later.
Noam Chomsky has written some interesting stuff about the relationship between the US and Israel. My impression is that when the US says jump, Israel listens. In-between times there is contempt for the US from Israel.
Of course we have a choice. That choice is between the right of the individual to choose his or her own destiny wherever it may lead, and the right of the Jewish religion/ethnic community.
I have a distant cousin who was buried many years ago. Recently she turned up very much alive. Turns out that she converted to Catholicism and married a Catholic. People were quite surprised to discover that the funeral was symbolic. I think that this little example demonstrates the conflict between individual identity and community identity. My impression is that usually when we talk about the right of a race, ethnic group or religion we are talking in terms of a fascist philosophy, and are actively denying the right of the individual.
While it is not fair for me to claim the same oppression as the Palestinian people face, Israel is clearly an attempt to deny my rights to shape my own identity.
but it sounds like you are getting at something interesting.
“I think that this little example demonstrates the conflict between individual identity and community identity. My impression is that usually when we talk about the right of a race, ethnic group or religion we are talking in terms of a fascist philosophy, and are actively denying the right of the individual.”
I think I get your point and if I do I agree.
You would really have to do a very very long outline on the indentity problems of people or groups to cover it all.
Since I am too brain dead right now to even attempt it I am going to fall back on the simple old..”your rights end where mine begin” and visa versa theory…for both individual and group rights.
Yes I believe we are on the same wavelength. I was mentally running through a diary to try to go over this.
Sorry epppie.
Writing intelligibly is not necessarily one of my strong points.
poor little head feel wooly inside sometimes!
groups – I can relate to that as a very important and relevant topic.
a problem with the Irish too (and I am Irish). For example, there was a politician in Boston who was important enough to be head of the state legislature, whose brother was (if I’m not mixing up stories) responsible for stealing some of Boston’s greatest art treasures in order to help finance the IRA in Ireland.
Heh heh..there’s one in every family isn’t there? Regardless of their ethnic roots.
I am musing as a euro-american 400 years ago on whether or not I would melt down the famiy silver to ship to Prince Charles if we went to war with Great Britain. The last time anyone around here melted down their silver service it was to kill British troops and then Yankees.
Huumm…. most likley not unless America was doing something too horrfic to bear and live with forever after.
terrorists label war.
in some ways is to know who your real friends are. Do we?
You and I might know.
But in DC allies is just another word for what’s in it for us politicans.
in a machiavellian world. This whole weekend of jousting about missles in Eastern Europe – what the hell was that about? NOthing for the good of humanity, that I’m pretty sure of.