Pam has a rundown of freeper reaction to the Larry Craig revelations. Here’s a typical one:
I thought Republicans were Anti-Gay? Am I missing something here? The GOP apparently has Gays in High Places. And the Main Stream media rather than saying, The Republicans are not the narrow minded Cretins we make them out to be. Instead say another “Fag Republican” was caught. What gives? The Demorats love Gays until they are members of the GOP. Then they are dirty scoundrels? Two faced liars and hypocrits. That’s what the Demorats are today. They hurl the Gay Insult when a GOP member is outed. If they out themselves as Demorats they are courageous. Otherwise they are Sexual Deviants.
The central charge here is that the Democrats ‘love gays’ unless they are Republicans, and then we think they are some kind of perverts. It’s a false charge. Democrats do not go around calling, for example, the Log Cabin Republicans ‘perverts’.
The reason is simple. Log Cabin Republicans are openly gay. That means they can go to gay bars, be seen in public with a boyfriend, or fill out a dating profile. Closeted gay men cannot do those things without incurring grave risks. One result of this can be that closeted gay men will resort to more clandestine means to meet partners. And then there is a certain kind of closeted gay man. A gay man that publicly abhors homosexuality and votes and campaigns against the ‘homosexual agenda’ is much more likely to combine clandestine means with deep-seated psychological issues and conflicts. Denial and shame compete with strong compulsions. I think this is what leads to bizarre behavior like peeking into stranger’s stalls in public lavatories. I’m not saying that some openly gay men don’t do this, too. But they’re perverts. And Larry Craig is a pervert.
I’ve known straight women that had sex with strangers in public bathrooms. Most people think that’s skeevy. Why did they do it? For a cheap thrill…for the danger…because it was bad…so they’d have a good story to tell. But at least that was consensual. Invading someone’s privacy while they’re trying to use the bathroom is beyond any reasonable range of socially acceptable sexual behavior. Add to this that no one wants to discover sexual activity is taking place in a public restroom when they go in there to use the facilities. It’s gross.
It’s a basic violation of the social contract, and much worse than pissing all over the seats.
That’s why undercover cops do these sting operations in bathrooms that gain a reputation as hook-up joints. The public deserves it.
Now, when you have a politician that is loitering in public lavatories and peeking in at people that take a while in the stalls, that’s unacceptable no matter what party they belong to. Just last week, a solid liberal, Rep. Bob Filner of California, pushed around a security guard in the baggage claim at an airport. You didn’t see any liberal bloggers defending that. It was disgraceful behavior, and the voters in his district should take that behavior into account when they go to vote next year.
Senator Craig’s problem begins with the fact that he was engaging in gross, unacceptable, behavior…invading people’s privacy and subjecting people to sexual behavior in public restrooms. Imagine if he had gone into the ladies’ room and done the same thing?
That’s what Republicans fail to understand. There’s no double standard here on our part. The double standard is on Larry Craig’s part. He’s in the closet, but outwardly he’s against gay marriage, against hate crimes legislation…
Hell, here’s his record:
* Voted YES on constitutional ban of same-sex marriage. (Jun 2006)
* Voted NO on adding sexual orientation to definition of hate crimes. (Jun 2002)
* Voted NO on expanding hate crimes to include sexual orientation. (Jun 2000)
* Voted YES on prohibiting same-sex marriage. (Sep 1996)
* Voted NO on prohibiting job discrimination by sexual orientation. (Sep 1996)Craig has a 0% rating in HRC’s 2006 Congressional Scorecard.
That record is where the hypocrisy begins. Why is he voting against gay rights when he is himself gay? And this gets back to his psychological problems. He doesn’t think his own behavior is okay. He knows it’s wrong. All his gay behavior is abnormal gay behavior. He’s not in a loving relationship. He doesn’t even know, or want to know, the men he has sex with. It’s just furtive, illegal, copulation to him. And he probably feels a deep sense of shame everytime he succumbs to his urges. Given how he acts on his urges, he should feel shame.
That’s why I feel in a tinge of sympathy for Craig, despite his hypocrisy. He has an opportunity to do what Governor McGreevey of New Jersey did when he was outed. McGreevey admitted he had been living a lie, got a divorce from his wife, and let the shame wash away. I’m sure he is much happier now, even though he is no longer able to serve in public office. But Craig is not yet willing to go that route. Instead, he pathetically insists that he has a ‘wide stance’ when he takes a crap, and that this somehow explains how he managed to rub feet with a man in an adjoining stall.
That’s the stuff of late-night jokes, not a serious defense. Part of Craig’s problem is that he doesn’t just have to admit he’s gay, he has to admit that he’s gross. And that is not an easy thing to do.
I’ll tell you what, though. If Craig does admit that he’s gay and that he’s been gross, it won’t be the Democrats that will be beating him up for it. For the most part, we’ll be forgiving and supportive.
The Republicans, by and large, with indeed be narrow-minded cretins.
A good post but I disagree with the idea that MCGreevey can not serve in public office anymore. If people were happy with his policies as Governor, who knows. Now that he is honest with himself and with the public about his orientation, he may find himself elected to public office again someday, if that’s what he wants. I’d have no problem voting for someone in his shoes if they were to run for mayor or something. It all depends on his ideas and his passion for public service.
Hell, remember Marion Barry?
I probably used some inartful sentence construction there. I meant that he had to give up his job as governor. He probably can’t be elected to anything again, but that relates to a lot more than him being gay and it is always possible that he could win the people’s trust back.
His real problem, which I think is what you are alluding to, is the conduct that was revealed when he was outed, i.e., marital infidelity. On one hand, I think he deserves a little leeway because of the culture that made it necessary for him to be closeted in the first place. On the other hand, It is possible to be closeted and not a) establish a hetero marriage, b) then go ahead and cheat on your wife, and c) act like you’re purely a victim when, in fact, he was mostly caught in a web of lies of his own making.
That said, there are plenty of hetero politicians with equally dubious pasts who are still in office.
In a nutshell, Craig’s problem isn’t that he’s gay or that he solicits sex in bathrooms, though that is indeed unappetizing behavior. It’s that he’s gay and voted repeatedly to restrict the rights of gay Americans while grandstanding about his fictional heterosexuality.
Being a gay Republican by itself is not objectionable, though it is incredibly stupid and on a par with being a racial minority Republican, or a working class Republican, or a poor Republican, or a female Republican. Then again, all Republicans are stupid except for rich WASP males, which is the group the GOP actually represents. But I digress. The point is that Democrats have little patience for anti-gay gay Republicans.
These incidents give me an opportunity to make a book recommendation, THE HIDDEN HITLER, about Adolf’s sexual predilictions and how they influenced his politics. In his adult life Hitler tried to obliterate in society those parts of him which he tried to deny. Thus, the murder of millions of Jews on account of his father who’d been part Jewish and born out of wedlock; and his attempts to obliterate the gays.
I think that the kind of dissociation from something so basic, one’s own sexuality, must play a part in sociopathic politics such as the kind exhibited by the Nazis and the Republican Party. The kind of separation from one’s own reality can lead to antisocial behavior (Google “Bush” “frogs” and “firecrackers” if you want to see a pathological release of sexual frustration). Is it any wonder that this, the gayest, most closeted group of politicians, led by George W. Bush, would be kidnapping and torturing people around the world?
My favorite part is that he says he was innocent and only pled guilty because he didn’t have an attorney and made a stupid mistake in pleading guilty.
There is not one chance in hell that he did this without the advice of an attorney. Just because they tried to slide it through a municipal or minor justice court of some kind without drawing attention to it and there was no counsel of record on the plea DOES NOT mean he did not consult an attorney. Take it to the bank that he consulted an attorney. This guy is not only a pervert, but like most far right wingnut Republicans, he is a complete lying sack of shit.
Oh, I thnk it’s over for the Senator. A local Idaho TV station did a report tonight. They posted it online (Hit the “Video” link below his picture.) It took a while to start playing. Could be heavy traffic, I guess.
This story reminds me so much of years ago when I lived in California and Conservative Republican Michael Huffington (Ariana’s ex) was running for some office (Boxer’s Senate seat, I think) and it was revealed that he frequented adult books stores and the like, trolling for boys. TV news went wild over the story. Career over. He disappeared.
How it plays out on TV is key.
Three successive articles on this incident have probably covered the subject to death: another U.S. political morality play.
no one wants to discover sexual activity is taking place in a public restroom when they go in there to use the facilities. It’s gross.
If a man walks into a public restroom and finds a man fucking a woman, it’s not gross—it’s porn. Any man who does not have a cold heart would think, “lucky bastard”. What makes it gross to your average straight guy isn’t that it’s sex taking place in a public space, but that it’s gay.
Booman, I think you’re absolutely correct when you say that the Dems are exhibiting no “double standard” here. But by dwelling on how “gross” Craig’s behavior was (isn’t any Republican gross, simply by being a Republican?), you do create an opening for the Rethug spinners. Any grossness that Craig’s activities involved pales in comparison to the hypocrisy of his promoting a gay-hating agenda while himself being gay. I really don’t see what’s accomplished by dwelling on the obvious fact that not only is he a self-loathing hate-filled lying hypocrite, but gross as well.
Whether it’s man-on-man, woman-on-woman or man-on-woman, porn is gross. Sexual acts stripped of feeling are gross. I’ve seen movies and live sex acts and there is no tenderness, no romance, no actual intimacy in these displays. Part of the titillation is the ugliness of it.
I’d like to suggest that Craig is NOT gay; he’s a sexual pervert. If there were unisex public bathrooms, Craig could have done his “nasty, bad boy” routine with a female. His behavior is not really about being attracted to same sex partners. It’s about degradation, about feeling wicked and being ashamed. Certainly, his doing it with men enhances this element of wickedness for him. I’m making the distinction that men are not the object of his desire. It’s the thrill, the risk of public humiliation, the essential forbidden tawdriness of the behavior that turns him on.
Gawd, Craig is a twisted sicko. Let’s not confuse his deviant behavior with desire and affection for same-sex partners.
I haven’t seen any live sex acts, but I can see your point that porn is gross. Nevertheless, it is highly popular.
Grossness is part of life. But there seems to be a compulsion on this thread to eliminate it. Must be the Puritan influence.
As for your second point, it is highly speculative. All we have is one police report to go on. The blogger/activist Michael Rogers has done a thorough investigation of Graig, outing him last October, but never brought up the kind of behavior you mention.
It isn’t always true that if there were a man and a woman in the next stall that I would think “lucky bastard”. For all I know, the woman is addicted to crack, and is doing this just to get her next fix. There isn’t anything lucky at all about that.
Or perhaps the woman was sexually abused as a child. Some women who have gone through this as children (and who haven’t yet come to terms with it) will engage in anonymous sex as adults. I wouldn’t think this to be lucky either.
I don’t want some pervert hitting on me in an airport bathroom. Yuck. It’s perverse, because it’s in a bathroom.
Dude, you have some twisted views on things.
When I go into a public restroom I do so because I have business. I don’t want someone in there with a guitar asking for money, I don’t want someone offering to shine my shoes, I don’t want someone offering me drugs, and I don’t want anyone making grunting noises in the stall next to me. I don’t care one little bit if some straight couple is doing the grunting…take it someplace else.
I am not going to think that the Dude is lucky. I’m going to think he’s an asshole. And that’s just me…if I’ve got kids with me, I’m going to be doubly pissed off.
Then, if you take it to the next level and start peeking into my stall, or you stick your fucking shoe into my stall and start caressing my foot, I’m liable to have a tantrum.
You can keep pretending this is somehow normal behavior, but it’s not.
All right. I can see I’m not going to win this one.
Lot’s of people seem to share your view that hetero sex in a public restroom is gross as well. It probably is. But is it as gross to most people? There seems to be little inclination toward consideration of degree here, of seeing some things as inherently gray. Everything has to be black and white. But I am not going to repeat myself.
In the earlier thread, I explained why you did not offer an evolutionary explanation when you brought up concern with getting pregnant, in case you are interested.
God, how conservative people are about certain things.
Point has been made that Craig’s hypocracy far outweighs any uncomfortable behavior in a restroom, but I guess this is a trigger issue for some people. . .
I don’t think it’s THAT gross, or that horrid, or that abnormal — this is what the closet does to men, and face it, men are horny, and they’ve been getting away with titilations in men’s rooms and pissoirs for centuries. Wake up dude, it seems there’s a lot about the world you as a straight man doesn’t know much about.
I think that accumulating trillions of dollars over the last 60 years, building perverse nuclear bombs, building an army of over 3 million personnel, taking half or more of our nation’s tax wealth, produced by the least wealthy of that country and buying said army, navy, nukes and armaments is perverse, and that PISSES ME OFF and I have a tantrum about it every day, for the last 45 years!
Perspective class, perspective!
Isis-
what this comes down to is that you and Alexander want me to accept that Larry Craig’s behavior is normal for a gay man.
For starters, take a tour of some of the better known gay bloggers like Mike Rogers, Lane Hudson, and Andrew Sullivan. They all expressed surprise at the revelation that there are certain signals one sends in a restroom to tip people off that you want to engage in sex. They’d never heard of these signals.
Everyone knows that there are people that use bathrooms for sex, just as we know that there are people that get off showing their genitals to strangers, or people that like to use the internet to pick up children. They’re called perverts. Some of it is innocuous, some of it is creepy, and some of it is highly criminal. But it’s not normal.
When you suggest that it is normal, then you’re really saying something very unfavorable and inaccurate about gay men.
Put another way, the shock isn’t that Craig is gay or that Craig wanted to have sex with a perfect stranger. The shock is that a sitting Senator would peer into stalls and basically act this recklessly. That’s the story. If you suggest all gay men do it, you’re totally wrong and you’re totally missing the point.
Give it up Boo- sjct said it at the end of his post.
the man is a sick bastard.all I am going to post now is: 1982.
billjpa
First, I can tell you that all this has been quite an…education. I had no idea that the men’s rooms at Union Station were so popular! Would it be the restroom by the A gate or downstairs near the movie theater? Never mind.
I do not feel sorry for him. Not in the least. In fact, it was just a matter of time that his fool ass would get caught.
Want to know who I feel sorry for? I feel sorry for the kids who can’t be who they are because if they don’t play this game–wear that straight mask–they will be mocked in the “best” case scenario or assaulted in the worst. He could do something about it, and he chooses not to.
And then the sorry f—– tries to pull rank? WTF? He’s been accused of trolling for sex in a nasty bathroom! Did he REALLY think that informing them that he was a Senator would help??? Idiot.
This is the reason that they believe that all people, even babies, are inherently sinful–because they are seriously damaged people. Hate to sound so Pollyanna-ish, but I’m just simply astonished at the level of depravity of your typical rethug.
Basically: no, it’s not us; it’s you.
The Idaho Statesman has published the report on Craig that it had on hold. It’s pretty damning. It turns out that Craig was involved in a Congressional page scandal during his first term in Congress. He got married shortly thereafter. The story also explains why the guy who gave him a blow job in Union Station came forward.
And Jeff Greenwald contrasts how regressives responded to Craig’s being outed by Mike Rogers in October, when they said that they don’t care if Craig is gay or not, with what they were saying after yesterday’s revelation. Many are saying Craig should resign while David Vitter, another “family values” Rethug who was revealed to be on the DC Madam’s telephone list, shouldn’t.
It seems that Craig is a very good liar. Apparently he passed FBI lie detector tests “clearing” him of having engage in gay sex.